Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to Part two of Them, A Chat with
Speaker 1: Sue and Lloyd Clark. They're the parents of Hannah Clark
Speaker 1: and the grandparents of Aliyah six years old, Leyana four
Speaker 1: years old, and Trey three years old, who are all
Speaker 1: murdered in February twenty twenty in a crime that shocked
Speaker 1: the nation when they were doused in petrol and set
Speaker 1: a light in their vehicle by Roan Baxter. Hannah's husband
Speaker 1: and the father of the children. Guys, welcome, Welcome back
Speaker 1: Part two.
Speaker 2: Ready to go.
Speaker 1: Yep, I'm glad you guys are. It's pretty heavy subject
Speaker 1: that we're talking about, and I apologize that, yeah, reliving it,
Speaker 1: but no, it's it's not a problem. The things that
Speaker 1: we're going to talk about in part two, I think
Speaker 1: of vital importance and making sure if in any way
Speaker 1: we can prevent this type of thing happening. We left
Speaker 1: left part one. When you've been informed, you found out
Speaker 1: that what had happened to Hannah and the children. Talk
Speaker 1: us through the next forty eight hours.
Speaker 2: We were numb.
Speaker 3: I think after Hannah finally passed, she hung on till
Speaker 3: a brother came back from the mines, had to ring
Speaker 3: him and get him flowing back home, and we said
Speaker 3: goodbye to our and then we were just numb. I
Speaker 3: think in a bit of a days. It had been
Speaker 3: one hell of a long day and we got home
Speaker 3: and I know, for some reason we all decided, we
Speaker 3: had Natt and Stacy with us, that we would go
Speaker 3: down to the corner just to see what was there
Speaker 3: the flowers. And as we were walking down, a storming
Speaker 3: and we had a bit of a chuckle. That was
Speaker 3: having to telling the kids to get to bed.
Speaker 2: He left.
Speaker 1: She's still controlling, he's still telling that.
Speaker 3: They're still playing up at bedtime. And then the next morning,
Speaker 3: I think, well, we didn't sleep, neither of us slept
Speaker 3: at wink. I called you in to bed with Alia's
Speaker 3: favorite little elephant. And next morning we got up, took
Speaker 3: the dogs and went for walk through the bush't we?
Speaker 2: And that same all that day so rain. That night,
Speaker 2: a big storm came through. It was just a typical
Speaker 2: February weather up here are humored, sticky, And the next
Speaker 2: day there's just all these yellow butterflies everywhere, everywhere, just
Speaker 2: butterflies everywhere. And that's why we've got the butterflies on
Speaker 2: the emblem as well, Johannah's feet and the butterflies. So
Speaker 2: I thought, well, you know, it's it's a bit of
Speaker 2: a sign sort of thing.
Speaker 3: It is.
Speaker 2: But yeah, for those next I suppose the next couple
Speaker 2: of months we were just numb. We didn't know what
Speaker 2: to do, where to go. And then next thing we was.
Speaker 3: Sort of we had these feet we didn't know what
Speaker 3: to do with. And icee you when someone's going to die,
Speaker 3: they give you a handprint on that person to keep well.
Speaker 3: The only thing that was left of hand it was
Speaker 3: the sales of a feet because she'd had joggers on
Speaker 3: so they didn't get burnt. So we were given her footprints.
Speaker 2: And I can't remember how long after the ac couple
Speaker 2: current affair was wanted us to do an interview, and
Speaker 2: they somehow I got ahold of Nat and that said
Speaker 2: we'll go do this interview, you know, for a current
Speaker 2: affair with Tracy and I just we didn't really want
Speaker 2: to do it, so and I thought, really, so we're
Speaker 2: getting I didn't want to. I refused it first, Yes,
Speaker 2: and the police were still looking after us. The detectors,
Speaker 2: they're like our personal bodyguards, and they were just with us. Now.
Speaker 2: Next morning they just turned up, are okay, what can
Speaker 2: we do? Can we get you anything? So they were
Speaker 2: wonderful and we've now formed really good friendships with tom
Speaker 2: O and Shan. We keep in touch all the time.
Speaker 2: And they were driving us too for the interview. It
Speaker 2: was set up in a private house somewhere they'd airbnb one.
Speaker 2: So we're given the location and as I'm walking out,
Speaker 2: I said, I just want to grab these I want
Speaker 2: the nation to know that's all we've got left of Hannah.
Speaker 2: Footprints prince. Yeah, and so we did the interview. I
Speaker 2: showed the world her feet. You know, we come home
Speaker 2: after that and I suppose to having a few drinks.
Speaker 2: We're sitting around and we're while we're there, we're talking
Speaker 2: to lew and Simon about you know that was friends,
Speaker 2: about maybe starting a foundation, you know, maybe we should
Speaker 2: do education. Let's look at all this. So then that's
Speaker 2: when we started getting the idea deers around, you know,
Speaker 2: sort of footprints. Well, we don't know what we're doing.
Speaker 2: We'll just do small steps. Let's do small steps for
Speaker 2: Hannah and make it a four for the four of them.
Speaker 2: So that's how that sort of all came about, you know,
Speaker 2: the foundation, the symbol, and then we put the yellow butterflies.
Speaker 2: So we got the feet for Hannah, and the yellow
Speaker 2: butterflies are the kids.
Speaker 3: Three are supposed to be teal because teal was her
Speaker 3: favorite color, and the pink because she was forbidden to
Speaker 3: wear pink.
Speaker 1: So symbolic, so symbolic, and I think it's that really
Speaker 1: brings home that that's what you're left of Hannah the prince.
Speaker 2: And then when you looked at too in age Hannah
Speaker 2: Aliyah Leana Trey Holt, so that became our our I'm
Speaker 2: saying that you had a wholt domestic violence. Well, and
Speaker 2: I'd like to say it be Holt law, not Hannah's law,
Speaker 2: because everyone knows Hannah, but we're forgetting the kids. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so we called the Holt law.
Speaker 1: Okay, isn't that It's got Well, I understand your thought
Speaker 1: process there. So when you said you waited until Nathan
Speaker 1: came down from the minds for Hannah to say goodbye,
Speaker 1: did you get to speak to her after the event?
Speaker 3: Was she they had a heavily sedated Yeah, we never got.
Speaker 3: I spoke to her, but she didn't respond.
Speaker 2: All right, So.
Speaker 1: You've got to move forward. I think a couple of
Speaker 1: things that really touched me was the vigil the community.
Speaker 1: The vigil there at the Parkland that a thousand people there.
Speaker 1: You were shocked. Did you see it? Did you get
Speaker 1: a sense of what was happening and involved in it?
Speaker 3: It was just crazy. We got to knock at the
Speaker 3: front door, and he's the mayor and his wife and
Speaker 3: our local counselor and police commissioner and on our door.
Speaker 3: We never spent time with people like that, you know,
Speaker 3: we were normal people, and we let them into our
Speaker 3: home home, a little house, and they said we would
Speaker 3: like to do this. We feel the community needs it
Speaker 3: and would like it. And we were overwhelmed that people
Speaker 3: felt like that, like we'd always been nobody's you know,
Speaker 3: and the thought that people wanted to support us was lovely.
Speaker 2: The flowers were starting to and teddy bears and that
Speaker 2: were starting to pile up on the corner. So the counselor,
Speaker 2: Fiota cuming Ham had said, well, I think we will
Speaker 2: move it down to Bill Hewett Park and people can
Speaker 2: leave their gifts and thoughts there because it's just spilling
Speaker 2: out everywhere. So that's when they said, well, if you'd like,
Speaker 2: we'd like to organize a vigil, you know, and you
Speaker 2: guys don't have to do I think we'll organize it
Speaker 2: all and put the word out. But we were just
Speaker 2: so touched. There was so many people I suppose we'd
Speaker 2: lost touch with over the years because we went our
Speaker 2: separate ways. And it was mainly the people that I
Speaker 2: met from when I moved to Brisbane in nineteen eighty
Speaker 2: to come down here and play football, and I think
Speaker 2: we all formed a very strong bond back there then,
Speaker 2: and they were forever friends, and they sort of friends
Speaker 2: that you don't see for six months, twelve months, ten years,
Speaker 2: but next time you see them, you can start that
Speaker 2: conversation as if it was twenty years ago, sitting in
Speaker 2: the pub having it a good old chat. We never
Speaker 2: lost touch in that respect. So everyone just banned around
Speaker 2: Hannah's friends. There were so many people that were there,
Speaker 2: you know.
Speaker 3: That was We had old school friends turn up. They
Speaker 3: were living on the other side of Brisbane. It was
Speaker 3: just amazing.
Speaker 1: And did that that help you guys process?
Speaker 2: I don't know.
Speaker 3: I think I was a nub to be honest. It
Speaker 3: was lovely to see that and feel the support, But
Speaker 3: I don't know in all honesty if it helped at
Speaker 3: the time, I didn't not help.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I couldn't say whether yeah, it made me feel
Speaker 2: stronger or that. But it was just lovely to see
Speaker 2: and people came from to Womba, yes, came down. But
Speaker 2: then again we started getting these stories. You know, we
Speaker 2: didn't need to hear them at that time. Out they're
Speaker 2: dramas their problem and I really love you know, I'm
Speaker 2: still trying to process my own grief here. How can
Speaker 2: I but we're lucky tom O and Shane were there.
Speaker 2: They would see this and they'd sort of okay, we're
Speaker 2: going to take you over here.
Speaker 1: When there's a tragedy of the magnitude that what you
Speaker 1: guys suffered Pannah and the children, people quite don't often
Speaker 1: know how to deal with it and deal with what
Speaker 1: to say. Like I I've had people that have had
Speaker 1: situations not this similar to what you've gone through, and
Speaker 1: people avoid them on the street, people that because they
Speaker 1: don't know what to say. Oh, there's Lloyd and Sue.
Speaker 1: What do we I'm just avoid.
Speaker 2: We've had had that a lot. I've had people come
Speaker 2: up to me three years later and say I've met
Speaker 2: them somewhere. You said, oh yeah. I said, oh look,
Speaker 2: I really wanted to call you, but I didn't know
Speaker 2: what to say, so we had to say was hello, Yeah,
Speaker 2: I said, you know, I'm happy, you know, like if
Speaker 2: I take your call or leave a message and I'll
Speaker 2: call you back now when I can. So basically from
Speaker 2: that day, I think I put my phone on silent
Speaker 2: and I just look at down there and go, oh, yeah, okay,
Speaker 2: I'll ring that person. I know they're okay, ring them
Speaker 2: didn't know that number. Let it go. They left a
Speaker 2: message I'd get back to them.
Speaker 1: And quite often people in your situations, or one person particularly,
Speaker 1: said that the best thing someone could say to me
Speaker 1: was just not trying to make you feel better by
Speaker 1: wise words, because there's no just thinking of you, yes,
Speaker 1: and give you a cuddle.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: One of the girls I worked with rang me the
Speaker 3: next morning and all she said was f love. I've
Speaker 3: got no words and it was just so true, and
Speaker 3: I said I don't either.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but something as simple as that, it's profound in
Speaker 1: the simplicity of it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: There was a park named Hannah's Place. The portion in
Speaker 1: the park, yes, is that? Does that feel nice for
Speaker 1: you to know that hasn't been forgotten?
Speaker 3: We go up on the nineteenth feb every year and
Speaker 3: we go up on Hannah's birthday and have a drink.
Speaker 3: It's nice.
Speaker 2: I mean the council just did that off the bat
Speaker 2: and said, look, we're going to do this little bench
Speaker 2: in the Bill Hue Park and little cover so people
Speaker 2: can just come sit, talk, reflect whether they think about
Speaker 2: Hannah orhere they think about someone else. And then they
Speaker 2: put the sign up Hannah's Place, And then what happened,
Speaker 2: just so people will know down the track you know
Speaker 2: who hell it was. But I don't think a lot
Speaker 2: of people will forget her.
Speaker 1: No, I'm sure that it won't be the case. So
Speaker 1: small steps for Hannah. What's the aims and goals of
Speaker 1: that group to.
Speaker 3: Get course of control? Our Lord's standalone laws in every
Speaker 3: state would be wonderful. And education and saving women Hannah
Speaker 3: wanted to. She was in the process of applied to
Speaker 3: the police force when she was killed, because she said,
Speaker 3: I understand it. I can help women like myself. So
Speaker 3: that's one of our goals. She's not here to do it.
Speaker 3: So we want to save women. But education is our
Speaker 3: big thing now.
Speaker 1: I think it's got to be the twofold And sometimes
Speaker 1: I get concerned when there's a crime domestic violence. We're
Speaker 1: talking here and the attitude is, Okay, well, we're going
Speaker 1: to make the laws tougher. We're going to do this,
Speaker 1: We're going to do that. But it's got to be
Speaker 1: a multi layered approach. I think to make a difference.
Speaker 1: Let's talk about coercive control. Because I talked about when
Speaker 1: we met at that function. One of the things I
Speaker 1: walked away inspired and I don't know if you are
Speaker 1: steering the politicians or the attorney generals to me. But
Speaker 1: I came back with there thinking one hundred percent this
Speaker 1: has to be done. And I've gone on about coercive
Speaker 1: controls in a lot of different podcasts of different forums
Speaker 1: because it just makes sense to me. Now, for those
Speaker 1: that don't know what coercive control what we're talking about here,
Speaker 1: coercive control laws, I'll refer back to the police just
Speaker 1: to explain it. We'll dumb it down. In my day
Speaker 1: in the police, without coercive control, we get called to
Speaker 1: a domestic and if you get called to too many domestics,
Speaker 1: what's happened here? Well, nothing will. The neighbor's called, there's
Speaker 1: a disturbance, invariably, and this is a bad old days.
Speaker 1: It's well, you'd look to the woman, and the woman
Speaker 1: say no, I'm fine, even though you can tell that
Speaker 1: she's scared. But the husband's standing right there. We improved
Speaker 1: policing to domestic type of assaults or of family violence
Speaker 1: to the point where okay, we've got the power of
Speaker 1: the aviva. We'll take our that break, not a family
Speaker 1: violence order or whatever the thing that Hannah took out
Speaker 1: that helps to a degree, but it doesn't circumvent it.
Speaker 1: And police we look at things very black and white.
Speaker 1: If there's no assault, like if I'm talking to I
Speaker 1: turn up at your place, there's Lloyd and Sue. I
Speaker 1: haven't been assaulted, but he's done this, done that. Well,
Speaker 1: it's not really legislation for it. Cowersive control is making
Speaker 1: it a law, a law that can be acted upon
Speaker 1: about the behavior and control of a person in an
Speaker 1: intimate relationship. I think it's a no brainer now. It
Speaker 1: was passed in parliament here in Queensland on sixth of March,
Speaker 1: and in New South Wales it's been flagged in parliament there.
Speaker 1: I think it's a great step. And would you guys
Speaker 1: agree that powers like that could have made a difference
Speaker 1: in Hannah's situation?
Speaker 3: Oh definitely. Well, for once she would have realized it
Speaker 3: was actually a crime more domestic violence being committed against her. Ye,
Speaker 3: so I think she may have looked at things differently,
Speaker 3: probably acted earlier quicker.
Speaker 2: Like we were saying, with the A v O, d
Speaker 2: v as whatever you want to call them. You know
Speaker 2: they're just a bit of paper. How does that stop
Speaker 2: someone from Okay, you're it says Oh, you're not allowed
Speaker 2: to go within a kilometer.
Speaker 1: And when you're talking in this idiot.
Speaker 2: That means nothing to him.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he's not going to worry about that.
Speaker 2: So you know, this is where I think we spoke
Speaker 2: earlier the other day about it, you know, monitoring. Okay,
Speaker 2: we've got to go down that path. Definitely, nationally a
Speaker 2: register everyone who does a dvo or whatever, they need
Speaker 2: to be registered, so nationally they know that they've had
Speaker 2: a dvo or put a dvo on them. Then also
Speaker 2: they need to do a program a perpetrate.
Speaker 1: Okay, I don't want to forget these points, because they're
Speaker 1: all very valid points I want to break breakdown.
Speaker 2: Won't that make it a bit easier to follow them,
Speaker 2: to know where they're at if they are getting too close?
Speaker 2: Especially in Hannah's case, we would have known that he
Speaker 2: was hiding beside the house.
Speaker 1: Let's get on our soapbox here and hopefully people are
Speaker 1: listening to the podcast. Like an ankle bracelet, how would
Speaker 1: that make a difference. I just in this day and
Speaker 1: age of technology the way it is, I, for the
Speaker 1: life of me don't understand why that's not implemented asap,
Speaker 1: And it.
Speaker 2: Could be something out there. But it could be like
Speaker 2: an app.
Speaker 1: Well, we could do it during COVID, couldn't We could
Speaker 1: track everyone the movements during COVID, and that was everyone.
Speaker 1: Why can't we have a Okay, there's a domestic violent situation.
Speaker 1: Someone gets an ankle bracelet put onto them, because that's
Speaker 1: the person that's rowan. In the case case of Hannah,
Speaker 1: if he comes within five kilometers or make it ten kilometers,
Speaker 1: alarms go off, police are notified. Hannah's no theifire, and
Speaker 1: all of a sudden she can live her life in
Speaker 1: peace knowing that she's safe in that he's not close by. Okay,
Speaker 1: people say, but they could cut the ankle bracelet off
Speaker 1: the moment that's cut off the alarm game and has notified.
Speaker 1: So there's all these protocols in place. To me, it
Speaker 1: just seems like a no brainer. And what are the
Speaker 1: arguments not invasion of privacy or this or that. I
Speaker 1: don't see it. They've only got the ankle bracelet on
Speaker 1: them because they're repeat offenders or they've been more and
Speaker 1: they've done it again and it could circumven it. Can
Speaker 1: anyone in this room find the problem at all?
Speaker 2: I definitely not, you know, I actually seem like a
Speaker 2: little spike or a.
Speaker 1: Shock like the barking dot.
Speaker 2: Why not you know, if they come within that class,
Speaker 2: they get a bit of a shock. Hang on your
Speaker 2: step back now, No, but.
Speaker 3: I think it would save lives.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent would save lives. And like, why can't
Speaker 1: we talk about we're going to get tough, We're going
Speaker 1: to do this, We're going to do that. I understand
Speaker 1: that tighten up the bail laws, make it so people
Speaker 1: don't get a chance. But in the conversations we had
Speaker 1: the other day, it was about everyone deserves a chance. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we'll give them one chance. But if they fail on
Speaker 1: that chance, here's your bracelet, idiot, and you come within
Speaker 1: five kilometers of the person that's at risk, you're going
Speaker 1: to jail.
Speaker 3: Yep.
Speaker 2: I like that. And it's a register, yeah, national register.
Speaker 1: On the register thing. And I often have this conversation
Speaker 1: with sex offenders and that different type of situation. But
Speaker 1: let's do it for domestic violence register. People say it's
Speaker 1: an invasion of privacy. Okay, why don't we have it
Speaker 1: like this? So I've never been charged with domestic violence,
Speaker 1: you haven't been charged with domestic violence. I'm happy to
Speaker 1: go on the register. If I happen to be out
Speaker 1: dating someone or meeting someone, can I check whether you're
Speaker 1: on the register? Yeah, you can check. Here's my name.
Speaker 1: I'm on the register. So it's the idiots that have
Speaker 1: got these charges won't be on the register. So it's
Speaker 1: not the invasion of anyone. We flip it a little bit.
Speaker 1: It's a voluntary it's voluntary. So I'm happy to go
Speaker 1: on the register because I haven't got a charge. So
Speaker 1: if anyone wants to check me out, Gary jubiln blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, No is why can't we do that?
Speaker 2: Yeah? Exactly.
Speaker 1: To me, that seems like a simple solution and we
Speaker 1: circumvent all this. It's an invasion of privacy and everyone's
Speaker 1: got to forget that. I volunteer to go on the
Speaker 1: register so anyone can contact me little things like that. Now, Education, again,
Speaker 1: I keep repeating this because I've seen it too many
Speaker 1: times over my career that if something's going wrong with
Speaker 1: a crime, we're going to get tough on this and
Speaker 1: we're going to you know, we're mandatory sentence, We're going
Speaker 1: to do this. We need to educate people about domestic violence,
Speaker 1: about coercive control. We need to call people out on
Speaker 1: them and it needs to start at a young young
Speaker 1: age all the way through. What's your thoughts on that.
Speaker 2: Well, we're now well small steps, I should say. We've
Speaker 2: got two brilliant people who are tackling it on two
Speaker 2: different aspects. One's the whole program Dave Kramer, who used
Speaker 2: to train with Hannah. He's now a behavioral specialist scientist,
Speaker 2: and he's doing one for the children, so high school
Speaker 2: aged children. At the moment, we're still and it's taken
Speaker 2: a while because we want to get it right. Because
Speaker 2: we're talking children here and they're in our future. We
Speaker 2: want them to behave properly in relationships. They need to
Speaker 2: learn how to behave properly and break up properly. So
Speaker 2: days is just get ready to do another pilot and
Speaker 2: put it out there.
Speaker 1: So he's going under the schools in the school.
Speaker 2: Something Manfield up here in Queensland. He's the owner. Mansiell's
Speaker 2: got them lined up to do the next pilot and
Speaker 2: then we should be right to just start rolling it out.
Speaker 2: However he can know how often he can. He's got
Speaker 2: the work to do. But with both programs, we don't
Speaker 2: want to franchise it. We don't want to just go
Speaker 2: out there push bush bush. We want it delivered properly
Speaker 2: and quietly. The other one is Michael.
Speaker 1: So people if it's hold.
Speaker 3: And days working with the university and professors getting their
Speaker 3: inputs on how to speak to the children, and also
Speaker 3: talking to the children about what they're seene on social
Speaker 3: media and how to understand that and how a lot
Speaker 3: of it's not right, and how to do with their
Speaker 3: feelings and how if a lot of boys get upset
Speaker 3: and they lash out. Dave talks about how to deal
Speaker 3: with those feelings, and Dave's, you know, a fit young fellow,
Speaker 3: and he explains or talks about it's okay to cry,
Speaker 3: and Dave may get tears while he was talking because
Speaker 3: he loved Tanna and the children. They were good friends.
Speaker 3: And when the kids see him get emotional, they see
Speaker 3: it's okay, it's okay for a man to be He's a.
Speaker 1: Person they can look up to ye and also show.
Speaker 3: Emotion exactly, So he's really hitting it as not accusing
Speaker 3: all teenage boys as being potential perpetrators, but just how
Speaker 3: to deal with your emotions and what you see on
Speaker 3: social media and just coping with teenage life as such,
Speaker 3: and respect for relationships.
Speaker 1: So and dealing with your emotions is an important part. Lloyd,
Speaker 1: I look at you, you can look at me you.
Speaker 1: I think we've shared ground. When you were young, like
Speaker 1: you didn't know how to deal with your emotions. You
Speaker 1: got you're either cranky or you were happy. Yes, that
Speaker 1: was and because that was the role models that were shown.
Speaker 2: That's right, there was. Well my era too, there was
Speaker 2: no mentors. I didn't have a mentor, like, oh a
Speaker 2: few people did, but who needs a mentor? And then
Speaker 2: if you did something, you know, you're stuffed up at work,
Speaker 2: you know, you started showing an emotion. I hardened up, mate,
Speaker 2: have a cup of concrete, Come on, move on. And
Speaker 2: I think that's sort of maybe made me a bit
Speaker 2: of a tough old bugger and realized that, you know,
Speaker 2: there's more to life, you know. Okay, we've had a
Speaker 2: terrible tragedy or the worst tragedy ever, but I need
Speaker 2: to move on, you know, I need to never get
Speaker 2: over it. Don't get me wrong, never there. But we
Speaker 2: had to just get up and keep going. And I
Speaker 2: think we said earlier, we just helped each other and
Speaker 2: we spoke we talked, and this is what I think.
Speaker 2: It's conversation. We need to have conversations. So we haven't
Speaker 2: going to have conversations with children in schools about behaving
Speaker 2: properly and about there but their emotions and showing them
Speaker 2: and or not showing them all that sort.
Speaker 1: Of stuff, and it's not it's not building a soft society.
Speaker 1: I think the problem we've got just discussions. If blakes
Speaker 1: break up like a rel relationship, and I won't use
Speaker 1: realm because I think he's an outlier in that. It's
Speaker 1: women sit down and do brief, go through the nitty
Speaker 1: gritty of it or whatever. If Lloyd and I are
Speaker 1: sitting there and broke up, Oh that's so good mate,
Speaker 1: What what are you drinking? It's almost that discissive type thing.
Speaker 2: And this week and the tips, Yeah, don't have.
Speaker 1: The hard subjects. That's just bas and that's what we
Speaker 1: shy away from it. And I think that's where you
Speaker 1: get these people caught up in this just spiraling circle
Speaker 1: of obsession or what ever. Then they haven't got the release,
Speaker 1: they don't know how to talk talk through it. So
Speaker 1: education at the school, So Dave's full name Dave Kramer,
Speaker 1: and the whole program. So if people want to see what's.
Speaker 2: Going on, just get onto our website and we've got
Speaker 2: a section there for education, and yeah, they can just
Speaker 2: send us an email and yeah, we'll try and fit
Speaker 2: them in.
Speaker 1: I do think it is a way to approach it. Wait, wait,
Speaker 1: definitely a way to approach it. You've got to re educate.
Speaker 1: I on the podcast series Breaking Badness, I went into
Speaker 1: a prison covering speaking to inmates in a maximum security prison,
Speaker 1: and there was something that was discussed with me when
Speaker 1: I actually got to sit down and speak to some
Speaker 1: of the inmates and you know, what are you're in
Speaker 1: here for? And somewhere in there for horrendous crimes? Blah
Speaker 1: blah blah, And then the topic of domestic violence came up,
Speaker 1: and they said the problem that what happens if someone
Speaker 1: is being charged with domestic violence, breach the AVA or whatever,
Speaker 1: end up in prison. They're in there, they're in there
Speaker 1: with angry men, and they're angry, and then they serve
Speaker 1: their time for breaching the a v O. And then
Speaker 1: they get out and they're just been pacing up and
Speaker 1: down their cell going that, bitch, why won't you report me?
Speaker 1: So they're getting they're getting out angry, and it's not
Speaker 1: you know it, we know it's stupid, but this is
Speaker 1: the logic going in their mind. And someone said and
Speaker 1: there was just is obviously spent a lot of time
Speaker 1: in prison this, but there needs to be something to
Speaker 1: help them in there to work to navigate away away
Speaker 1: from this. Otherwise you're just put in men that were
Speaker 1: angry to start with. That's why they're in here, and
Speaker 1: then they're in here and they're getting out angrier, and
Speaker 1: no one's an intervention program for that type of thing.
Speaker 1: So but all these things that there's so many different
Speaker 1: layers to it, isn't it exactly? And falling back on
Speaker 1: the politician side of it and the police side of it,
Speaker 1: where bail is being given, there's some warning signs there
Speaker 1: and I think someone mentioned that there was someone that
Speaker 1: was bailed after they killed their ex's pet to me
Speaker 1: and again not a psychologist, but that's warning, warning and
Speaker 1: how they get bail from there. So there's a lot
Speaker 1: of things that need to be done to make a difference.
Speaker 1: Are you guys confident like you've been given a platform
Speaker 1: and it's a platform that you certainly didn't want And
Speaker 1: I sense an easier life for you would be stepping away.
Speaker 1: Do you think we are getting better at dealing with
Speaker 1: domestic and family violence?
Speaker 2: It's hard. I think we're getting more aware. Everyone's getting
Speaker 2: more aware. The conversations are great at the moment because
Speaker 2: we're seeing people talking about it and it's not just
Speaker 2: you know, the cause of control, but it's all domestic
Speaker 2: and family violence. So now the federal government's getting involved.
Speaker 2: Finally taken four years from nearly four years from Hannah,
Speaker 2: until the federal governments turned around said we need a
Speaker 2: national inquiry, we need a national input. So let's get
Speaker 2: all the states together, and that's what we've been pushing
Speaker 2: for is get all the states to bloody turn around
Speaker 2: and do something. It'd be great if there was just
Speaker 2: one law that suited every state and territory, but unfortunately
Speaker 2: that's never going to happen. So we've got to make
Speaker 2: sure that these other states and territories actually do something,
Speaker 2: just not be Queensland, New South Wales and hopefully South Australia.
Speaker 2: Well there's already some laws in Tasmania, but they probably
Speaker 2: need to be bolstered up a bit. But we're seeing
Speaker 2: a shift in policing with her some really good stories
Speaker 2: come out.
Speaker 1: Tell us that because people think I bash it up
Speaker 1: on the police sometimes that I love good stories about policing.
Speaker 3: We did tell that Christy Oh, a friend of ours
Speaker 3: up the coast, who twenty years ago had been in
Speaker 3: a domestic violence relationship which was quite physical, and she's since,
Speaker 3: as often happens, has a fellow and she's in the
Speaker 3: same situation now. But New Year's Eve the police were called.
Speaker 3: He got out of carving knife and rang the police
Speaker 3: and said that she was trying to attack him, and
Speaker 3: they clearly saw through it for what it was. But
Speaker 3: the police did advise that one should leave the house.
Speaker 3: No one did, but the police helped get him to
Speaker 3: an AA meeting, They got him to a psychologist, and
Speaker 3: they really kept checking in and doing wellfall checks and
Speaker 3: she said the change in twenty years to how the
Speaker 3: police reacted was amazing.
Speaker 1: Okay, well, that's credit to the police. I do think
Speaker 1: that I do think they've become aware of the situation
Speaker 1: they have.
Speaker 2: And we've sent it here in Queensland, especially when you
Speaker 2: know we also with the Foundation, we give grants out
Speaker 2: so that before we actually sort of got involved, well,
Speaker 2: we didn't think we'd be able to do the education
Speaker 2: because she just didn't know how to set that up.
Speaker 2: So you had all this money piling up. People were
Speaker 2: just donating to us, you know, to help. We thought, well, okay,
Speaker 2: we've got this money, and we spoke to our patron,
Speaker 2: Nina Shremmon, and she said, all you need to do
Speaker 2: is just sit on it, put in the bank, maybe
Speaker 2: start giving grants out.
Speaker 1: To workwhile projects.
Speaker 2: Yeah, people that foundations that can't get the grands have
Speaker 2: missed out on grants. So we just put a call
Speaker 2: out and our goal is and we're going to reach
Speaker 2: that quite comfortably. We'd like to give a million dollars
Speaker 2: out with them five years, and that's coming around pretty
Speaker 2: quick and we'll definitely have it before the five years,
Speaker 2: so we and just give out whatever. And one of
Speaker 2: them was to set of women and co here a
Speaker 2: little foundation. They have counselors and what they did they
Speaker 2: were putting them out with the police to go out
Speaker 2: and help in the domestic violence in the Logan area.
Speaker 2: And they the funding to run out, so they're going
Speaker 2: to shut it down. I read this in the paper
Speaker 2: and then so did the our our shairman on the board,
Speaker 2: and we sort of both had the same idea at
Speaker 2: the same time. Well, let's do something about it. Let's
Speaker 2: get in touch, let's maybe give them some money. We
Speaker 2: can't give them do it forever, but maybe pay for
Speaker 2: six months and then see what happens.
Speaker 1: And so that was having a counselor go out with
Speaker 1: the police to attend.
Speaker 2: A semestic or people who wouldn't didn't want to come
Speaker 2: in because they've actually had problems with the police to
Speaker 2: start with. They hated going to the police. Distrust, yeah, distrust,
Speaker 2: you know that sort of thing. So they would go, look,
Speaker 2: I'll go down and see them have a couple or
Speaker 2: ring them in and I'll actually sit there with you
Speaker 2: through the interview, so you're comfortable, right, and then I'll
Speaker 2: take you back home.
Speaker 1: Just a little thinks like that make a big So
Speaker 1: we did that.
Speaker 3: They also were helping the police with how to phrase
Speaker 3: the questions. Now they were saying, like, how about you
Speaker 3: asked this way, and that helped the police a lot
Speaker 3: because they understood better and they were getting better answer.
Speaker 2: I think.
Speaker 1: And the police want to do it. They set out
Speaker 1: to do a bad job. And I know, you speak
Speaker 1: to any police officer and they all put the hand
Speaker 1: up to how intimidating it was the first time you
Speaker 1: got called to a domestic because invariably you were younger
Speaker 1: than the person you were going there to tell how
Speaker 1: to behave and you walk in there and go, I
Speaker 1: don't know what to do.
Speaker 3: That's right. So if you've got a young constable, but
Speaker 3: that and you've got someone who's experienced helping you and
Speaker 3: advising you on what to say and what to look for,
Speaker 3: makes a huge difference.
Speaker 1: Well, it's again so many different things to look at,
Speaker 1: isn't it.
Speaker 3: Well, the police here are actually trialing that in three
Speaker 3: of our worst domestic violence areas at the moment, having
Speaker 3: co responders go out.
Speaker 2: And when we went down there too, oh they wonder,
Speaker 2: thank us and that, you know, and do the whole
Speaker 2: novelty check thing and hand that over. Had a bit
Speaker 2: of a morning tea down there and talking to one
Speaker 2: of the senior police there, he said, mate, you don't
Speaker 2: believe the difference in policing, he said, once before before
Speaker 2: we actually had these guys on as coresponders. You know,
Speaker 2: we'd put a call out there's a domestic dispirit at
Speaker 2: such a star everyone's going, oh, hang on, there's also
Speaker 2: a car crash. We'll go to the car crash, the
Speaker 2: car crash, and then all of a sudden, you know,
Speaker 2: they realize that they are helping and they're doing really
Speaker 2: good for the community. They will get into the bottom
Speaker 2: of everything. He said, No one wants to go to
Speaker 2: car crash anymore. They will want to go to the
Speaker 2: DV situation. How good is that? That's that's great.
Speaker 1: That's great. And like I think policing, if you can
Speaker 1: prevent crime, it's you want to prevent crime. It makes
Speaker 1: everyone's world a better place if you can, if you
Speaker 1: can prevent it.
Speaker 2: So we'll go back to that education in this. We've
Speaker 2: got to educate the perpetrator most definitely.
Speaker 1: We've talked about programs coming in legislation, different things that
Speaker 1: you can done. I know in the conversation you guys
Speaker 1: we had had the other day, we're talking about people. Friends.
Speaker 1: You me have got to call out other people before
Speaker 1: we see it going bad and not take that sort
Speaker 1: of it's a little bit awkward. I don't want to
Speaker 1: buy into this. So if we see things happening as
Speaker 1: a friend, as a friend, associate or whatever, you've got
Speaker 1: to speak up. Would you guys agree on that.
Speaker 3: Very much, so very much so even just to hear
Speaker 3: your friends said, your derogatory remark about a woman, you know,
Speaker 3: so mate, we don't do that anymore.
Speaker 2: Not cool. And I think that's our other program too,
Speaker 2: is called Hannah's Story. So that's for more the adult
Speaker 2: corporate sort of thing football or clubs, you know, And
Speaker 2: that's been that started rolling out late last year and
Speaker 2: Michael j has done all the framework for it. So
Speaker 2: Michael's an educated talker speaker, and he has done this
Speaker 2: on the podcast Hannah's Story. So it's gender based. Of course,
Speaker 2: it's Hannah's Story and there's that so many red flags
Speaker 2: there and it's quite hard hitting, very to the bone.
Speaker 2: But it has got some great reviews. He delivers it
Speaker 2: as a male to talking about a male doing the
Speaker 2: wrong thing. And I think, you know, it's a good
Speaker 2: program because it shows you the red flags, it shows
Speaker 2: you what to look for and actually, yeah, speak about it.
Speaker 3: Gives it a true life story. Yes, that's the fart
Speaker 3: of Hannah and the kids. And also he has some
Speaker 3: of the clips from the police cams when they were
Speaker 3: dealing with so people can see.
Speaker 1: So and so you may made the point you know
Speaker 1: if people sitting around and they say something derogatory or whatever,
Speaker 1: and Lloyd, you would have seen that you sit and
Speaker 1: they're not.
Speaker 2: As part of it. Yeah, as a football playing football,
Speaker 2: we all made those comments and.
Speaker 1: I could imagine that bitch of a wife wants me
Speaker 1: to go home. Yeah, something like that. We don't have
Speaker 1: to get too precious, but we've got to. Yeah, the
Speaker 1: world has changed and we've got to go. If this
Speaker 1: blake is, if it's not said in total jest or nothing,
Speaker 1: they've got to be called on it. You shouldn't be
Speaker 1: speaking about your wife like that's a bit of respect.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: And it's not that hard, is It Really just takes
Speaker 1: a bit of ticker just to stand up sometimes and
Speaker 1: not just sort of shy away from it. Hey, guys,
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Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts Today Your life, Guys, you wouldn't have expected
Speaker 1: your life to be where it is now. You talked
Speaker 1: at the Starter part one about you have to continue
Speaker 1: on because you've got family. What other option have you got?
Speaker 1: Look at looking back, what they think life's all about
Speaker 1: for you to now? Is it a day to day
Speaker 1: struggle or you've got purpose or you've got the memories.
Speaker 3: Day to day struggles still, really it is to hope
Speaker 3: with and then other days you feel you're on top
Speaker 3: of it and you've got some goals, and then back
Speaker 3: to square one.
Speaker 2: It's yeah, yeah, I don't know. Every year since I
Speaker 2: think I feel top more tired. I just starting to
Speaker 2: lose a bit of that zest, that energy I suppose,
Speaker 2: you know, just sort of get out there and keep
Speaker 2: knocking on doors, trying to talk to politicians, do and
Speaker 2: report interviews, and that just find it harder this year.
Speaker 2: I don't know, Maybe it's just that third fourth year
Speaker 2: coming around. Maybe just need a really good break. But
Speaker 2: we had a good break over Christmas, so and I
Speaker 2: was ready to thinking, well, OK, this year, we've got
Speaker 2: a few things lined up, but we want to sort
Speaker 2: of just step back this year a bit, just let
Speaker 2: the education, let the boys concentrate on that and help
Speaker 2: out wherever we can there. It's sort of it's been
Speaker 2: an emotional ride again, you know, sort of yeah, knock
Speaker 2: us about a bit, but you know, we've sort of
Speaker 2: got to keep just moving on and I think we'll
Speaker 2: just take it slowly this year. And we're actually going
Speaker 2: down to New South Wales to do a presentation to
Speaker 2: the New South Wales Police. They've asked us starting yeah, yeah,
Speaker 2: and we were so grateful to be honored to be
Speaker 2: asked to go down there and talk to them.
Speaker 1: I think that's such a great idea by a New
Speaker 1: South Wales Police to get you involved, because I know
Speaker 1: if police sit there that can be a bit cynical.
Speaker 1: You guys come down there and tell your story and
Speaker 1: that and there won't be a person in the room
Speaker 1: that's not sort of switch switched onto it. So that's good.
Speaker 1: You've got to make sure you look after yourselves guys too,
Speaker 1: Like I've seen people through my years in homicide that
Speaker 1: they're on that campaign. You've got to be able to
Speaker 1: look after yourself.
Speaker 2: And that's what I'm going to take a bit of
Speaker 2: time this year and just.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, and I think even that that function before
Speaker 1: the COVID lockdown, you guys said to me, and I
Speaker 1: still still remember it, that you're just tired. You know,
Speaker 1: you're doing so many things and you've been pulled from
Speaker 1: pillar to post. I say to you, and I pulled
Speaker 1: you into the podcast. I'm saying, take it easy. What
Speaker 1: a hypocrite I am. But the work that you're doing
Speaker 1: is worthwhile. You are you are, you are definitely making
Speaker 1: a difference, and you've inspired me just sitting down talking
Speaker 1: to you, because I think a couple of things that
Speaker 1: we stumble across or you're thought of, it's just so obvious,
Speaker 1: isn't it, like with the coercive control? Well, how does
Speaker 1: it take us hundreds of years to work out we
Speaker 1: needed this, like say, blatantly obvious ankle bracelets. Let's push that.
Speaker 1: I'm going to champion that everywhere I go. Let's just
Speaker 1: keep going ankle bracelet, ankle bracelet. I think that's the register.
Speaker 1: We can get around that privacy stuff by just doing it.
Speaker 1: I'll be the first one the register. I'll register do
Speaker 1: it that way, and then education and.
Speaker 2: I do believe that there has been a bit of
Speaker 2: a shift between interstate police. They've done our information share
Speaker 2: now yeah, yeah, is correct.
Speaker 1: Policing is always evolveding they're trying to improve. No one's
Speaker 1: going to policing policing too stuff up, so everyone's trying
Speaker 1: to make it better in policing. And yeah, there's no
Speaker 1: one if you've seen with the police that you've come across,
Speaker 1: attending crimes like that. No one wants to attend crimes
Speaker 1: like that and the impacts on them, So everyone wants
Speaker 1: to do a better job. I think we're understanding domestic
Speaker 1: violence on the national level. As you said, the federal
Speaker 1: government have got him. One of the impressive people I
Speaker 1: had on the podcast. She was a police officer, but
Speaker 1: she was also a victim of that coercive control and
Speaker 1: domestic violence and all that, and it was really interesting
Speaker 1: the insight. And she's thinking, I'm a police officer, how
Speaker 1: can I be a victim because and I think a
Speaker 1: lot of people think that way, and then really dawned
Speaker 1: on it, Well, I am a victim.
Speaker 2: I'm one of.
Speaker 1: These people that I go to help. And she's got
Speaker 1: an interesting insight into policing and what can be done
Speaker 1: on the domestic violence. So we've all these people working.
Speaker 1: You sound like you're getting a good team around around yourselves.
Speaker 2: We are well And I mean, like I said, we
Speaker 2: just decided to have a conversation managed to get governments
Speaker 2: and people to work together. Here in Queensland. We've managed
Speaker 2: to get because we called a bit of a round
Speaker 2: table or we wanted to learn more about courus of control.
Speaker 2: We formed a little meeting thing once a month where
Speaker 2: we held cours of controlled dinners and did separate things.
Speaker 2: So other foundations they did some networking. We started collaborating.
Speaker 2: I started. We managed to get the foundations working together
Speaker 2: where we find here in Queensland and they tend to
Speaker 2: fight against each other because they want the money, they
Speaker 2: want the thing, And I just think, how why we've
Speaker 2: all got the same purpose. We just got that common goal.
Speaker 2: Can't we worked together?
Speaker 1: I think the beauty of you two and you flagger
Speaker 1: it as if it's a negative ice sad, there's a positive.
Speaker 1: You gone, we're just average people and you cut through
Speaker 1: the bullshit and go it's not that complicated. So you
Speaker 1: don't ever think things. You just well, why don't we
Speaker 1: do that? And I think that's what resonates with and I.
Speaker 2: Think what woman said to me too, from one of
Speaker 2: the foundations. I got up and said something one day.
Speaker 2: She said, geez, I love you lord. You just don't
Speaker 2: beat around the bush. You just say as it is
Speaker 2: and then sit down. I said, Well, I don't want
Speaker 2: to drag on and do a thousand words. I just
Speaker 2: want to get my point across. And I'm just a
Speaker 2: simple person. So that's how I just want. I think
Speaker 2: life should be simple. Why should it be complicated? Well,
Speaker 2: we over complicate things.
Speaker 1: Too much, I agree, And that's the beauty of what
Speaker 1: you guys are, what you guys are doing. So I
Speaker 1: just want to firstly thank you for coming on the
Speaker 1: podcast and sharing your story because I know, no, it's
Speaker 1: not easy. But when I say people like you inspire me,
Speaker 1: I mean that because what you've overcome and how you've
Speaker 1: tried to steer your life in a positive direction, full
Speaker 1: credit to you, and the fact that you've stayed together.
Speaker 1: You must go through some tough times, and yeah, I
Speaker 1: can see the support I saw at the moment I
Speaker 1: sat down beside you for that lunch, that you had
Speaker 1: each other's backs, and it's beautiful to see.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we always have them, have we talk.
Speaker 2: We talk, yeah, most of the talk.
Speaker 1: You can't say that, don't be disrespectful. Yeah, all right,
Speaker 1: thanks guys for coming on. And let's stay in touch
Speaker 1: and let's if I can push anything from the media
Speaker 1: connections or whatever, let me know and vice versa.
Speaker 2: Let's stay in touchy.
Speaker 1: Good, Okay, see your Lloyd s Sir Hi Gary. I
Speaker 1: was a little bit worried about doing this podcast with
Speaker 1: Lloyd and Sue. It's such a heavy, heavy topic. They
Speaker 1: inspire me how do you overcome a tragedy like that?
Speaker 1: They are inspirational people. You can still see the pain
Speaker 1: it'ched on their faces and the emotion that they carry,
Speaker 1: which is understandables losing their daughter and their three grandchildren.
Speaker 1: But what inspires me most is the work that they're
Speaker 1: doing to try and make sure this type of thing
Speaker 1: doesn't happen. They are instrumental in campaigning for coercive control,
Speaker 1: which is such a powerful legislation that I think will
Speaker 1: make a big difference in the domestic violence space. Really
Speaker 1: impressive people, just good people, as they call themselves, average people.
Speaker 1: I think they're a little bit above average. They're inspirational
Speaker 1: and just a tragedy that's happened, and that happens too
Speaker 1: often in this country. A domestic and family violence