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Speaker 1: Appote production.

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Speaker 2: This podcast contains discussion of child sexual assault and psychological trauma.

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Speaker 2: It's not recommended for younger listeners, and discretion is advised.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to Real Crime with Adam Shand. I'm your host,

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Speaker 2: Adam Shand. There's an old saying that justice delayed is

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Speaker 2: justice denied. My guest today knows exactly how that feels,

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Speaker 2: and I'm hoping we can fix that. For three years,

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Speaker 2: from the age of eight to eleven, Fleur which is

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Speaker 2: not her real name, was sexually assaulted by her stepfather.

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Speaker 2: In those years, she suffered in silence as her mother's

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Speaker 2: husband exploited and defiled her. When she did speak up

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Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty five, police did next to nothing. The

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Speaker 2: perpetrator was interviewed but never charged. Fleur bravely told police

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Speaker 2: what her stepfather did to her in highly credible detail,

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Speaker 2: but in those days children are often not believed. Luckily,

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Speaker 2: times have changed remarkably. Fleur was placed in foster care

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Speaker 2: while her mother tried to save her marriage. Presumably as

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Speaker 2: I said, the perpetrator was never charged and for him

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Speaker 2: it all went away, but not for Flur. Forty years later,

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Speaker 2: Fleur is trying to have her assailant, now in his

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Speaker 2: mid eighties, brought to justice before he dies. I've located

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Speaker 2: this man living quietly in the suburbs of Melbourne, the Polisa,

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Speaker 2: where he is too but he still enjoys his freedom,

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Speaker 2: while Fleur continues to live the trauma of those days

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Speaker 2: that he caused. I'm proud to assist Fleur in her

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Speaker 2: quest for justice, and she's in the Real Crime Studio today.

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Speaker 2: Welcome Flur.

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Speaker 1: Thank you. It's quite an introduction. I've not heard it

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Speaker 1: put quite like that, so it's almost quite confronting.

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Speaker 2: Your whole story is confronting. And when you contacted me,

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Speaker 2: I knew this was story I had to pursue and

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Speaker 2: I should ask you why did you choose me?

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Speaker 1: Because, like I said, what I think i'd mentioned when

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Speaker 1: I first made contact that I'd seen some of your

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Speaker 1: work with TV shows and other podcasts, and so I thought, well,

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Speaker 1: you seem like someone who this has been your experience

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Speaker 1: and you would have knowledge specific to that very first

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Speaker 1: question that I asked you, which was in relation to,

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Speaker 1: you know, does publicity hinder or assist a criminal investigation?

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Speaker 1: As to whether that was going to be the right

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Speaker 1: path for me to take.

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Speaker 2: Well, I thank you for your trust and confidence in

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Speaker 2: me to do this, and I'm going to do my

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Speaker 2: very best. And we should say there has been a

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Speaker 2: report to police, Queensland Police about this where the offenses

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Speaker 2: took place, and you've not felt that there's been the

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Speaker 2: right urgency in this case because the perpetrator is now,

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Speaker 2: as I said in the intro, in his mid eighties,

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Speaker 2: and you fear he may die without facing up to

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Speaker 2: what he's done.

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Speaker 1: Correct, because this reissuing of a complaint to the police

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Speaker 1: was I think even pre COVID, And so that's how

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Speaker 1: long I've been sitting waiting for something to happen. And

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Speaker 1: as much as there has been bits and pieces and

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Speaker 1: the police have you know, have done some background work,

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Speaker 1: you know, trying to track down people from that time

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Speaker 1: to see what they could offer as a witness, but

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Speaker 1: it's been at a snail's pace, and you know, I've

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Speaker 1: been simply told that you know, other cases that are

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Speaker 1: happening now have been taking priority and so I kind

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Speaker 1: of always then shoved back to the bottom of the queue.

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Speaker 2: So how do you feel about that this case when

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Speaker 2: you know the perpetrator is elderly, he could die any time,

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Speaker 2: and any chance of your resolving this, there's been the

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Speaker 2: big issue in your life. Any chance of resolving it

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Speaker 2: will be gone.

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Speaker 1: It's frightening, you know, as much as I understand that

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Speaker 1: if there are cases happening now, of course you know

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Speaker 1: they need attention. However, and I've said this to the

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Speaker 1: police officer recently, is you can't keep pushing my case

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Speaker 1: to the bottom because there is the very real threat

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Speaker 1: of simply dying from old age, regardless of you know,

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Speaker 1: any other causes of death, and then you know, everything

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Speaker 1: completely falls apart, you know, the second that occurs. But

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Speaker 1: of course, you know, I don't know how much I

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Speaker 1: can push the issue, you know, without getting pushed back,

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Speaker 1: you know, or being told that there's staffing limitations, funding limitations,

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Speaker 1: all of this that. You know. I'm sure they do battle,

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Speaker 1: but there's got to be a point where mine does

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Speaker 1: take some priority.

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Speaker 2: Well, it's about you having your voice and telling your story,

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Speaker 2: and I guess impressing on the police that time is

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Speaker 2: of the essence. And I think I get contacted quite

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Speaker 2: a lot by people with these historical sexual assault cases,

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Speaker 2: and they're very difficult because usually there's no evidence. There's

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Speaker 2: one story from a long time ago. There's no contemporary notes,

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Speaker 2: there's no file, and it's extremely difficult for police picking

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Speaker 2: up the trail to do anything at the distance of time.

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Speaker 2: The difference with your case is you have quite a

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Speaker 2: bit of material. You've got a record of interview that

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Speaker 2: was done with the perpetrator back in nineteen eighty five.

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Speaker 2: You've got some handwritten notes I presume by a detective

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Speaker 2: back in the day transcribing your experience. You've also got

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Speaker 2: a magazine that was I guess part of the evidence

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Speaker 2: back in the day, a pornographic magazine. You've got what

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Speaker 2: happened to you as well. You were put in foster care.

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Speaker 2: So tell us how did that material come to light?

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Speaker 2: Because from what I understand your mother and I don't

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Speaker 2: want to criticize her, because this is a problem that

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Speaker 2: so many people are faced over the years in marriages

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Speaker 2: where this has taken place, and really this sort of abuse.

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Speaker 2: One of my friends down here next sexual assault squad

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Speaker 2: detective said, this is the last taboo where it's ancestor

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Speaker 2: or its stepfathers and so forth. Very difficult cases. But

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Speaker 2: your mother had a certain way of dealing with it

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Speaker 2: back in the day.

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Speaker 1: What did she do seemingly lifted the carpet and swept

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Speaker 1: it under. It was not to be discussed. Essentially, that's

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Speaker 1: when the lies started, so, you know, lying about why

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Speaker 1: he wasn't you know, why they weren't together anymore. And

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Speaker 1: that was a lie that I also had to go

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Speaker 1: along with. I wasn't to talk to her about what happened,

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Speaker 1: wasn't allowed to talk to anyone else what happened. And

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Speaker 1: that's just sort of the way it became. And of course,

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Speaker 1: unfortunately of the age that I was and not really

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Speaker 1: able to I guess, articulate the situation well enough to

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Speaker 1: speak out or to you know, jump up and down

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Speaker 1: and complain. I guess it was just still reeling from

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Speaker 1: everything that happened, and you just sort of, I suppose,

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Speaker 1: accept that this is what you have to do, not

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Speaker 1: realizing that it's not actually you know, and of course

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Speaker 1: a lie ends up evolving into other areas of life.

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Speaker 1: I ended up having a lot of struggles with weight

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Speaker 1: because I ended up being a comfort eater. I struggled

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Speaker 1: through school, and of course, you know, if anyone ever

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Speaker 1: probably questioned my mother about these things, it was never

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Speaker 1: actually related to you know, the fact that I've gone

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Speaker 1: through a significant trauma, you know, that would have been

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Speaker 1: kept quiet, and who knows what she told people about

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Speaker 1: those scenarios, but it certainly wouldn't have been the truth.

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Speaker 2: And it certainly would have affected your relationship with your mother,

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Speaker 2: because when I read the material and I speak to

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Speaker 2: you over the last few weeks, as we've discussing this,

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Speaker 2: this term victim blaming comes to mind. That you were

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Speaker 2: made to feel that you were the one to blame,

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Speaker 2: that somehow the troubles going on were at your door,

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Speaker 2: rather than the perpetrator who had just abused your trust

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Speaker 2: in a horrific way.

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Speaker 1: Well, I certainly can look back and feel a sense

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Speaker 1: that she thought I'd made it up, which was part

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Speaker 1: of then her wanting to pretend it never happened, because

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Speaker 1: no doubt if she did say anything to him, or

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Speaker 1: even if she did read that police interview and saw

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Speaker 1: him denying everything, that she would have taken that as, oh,

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Speaker 1: he didn't do anything, and therefore I have made this up.

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Speaker 1: And you know, those thought presses don't happen in isolation.

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Speaker 1: They then permeate into all your other thought process and

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Speaker 1: so of course, if you think I've lied and made

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Speaker 1: the whole thing up. Well, then you're not dive in

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Speaker 1: wanting to make sure I'm okay, get help and support

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Speaker 1: for me, guidance, nothing because you think I've lied.

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Speaker 2: And so nothing was said for years about this and

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Speaker 2: you were made to feel like you'd made it up.

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Speaker 2: Were there times when you even doubted yourself that maybe

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Speaker 2: this didn't happen, Maybe maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I ever felt that I got it

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Speaker 1: wrong and it never happened. I think it was more

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Speaker 1: that weird and this is a weird perspective to have,

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Speaker 1: but almost it was wrong for me to have said something,

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Speaker 1: and that it almost wasn't wrong for him to have

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Speaker 1: been doing that. Like in as bizarre as that sounds,

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Speaker 1: it was sort of rather than me going, oh, maybe

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Speaker 1: it didn't actually happen, like no, I certainly do not

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Speaker 1: hype doubt that it happened, But it was that aspect

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Speaker 1: of maybe I was wrong to say something, or like

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Speaker 1: I said, maybe maybe what he was doing wasn't considered wrong.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was quite an isolated child, you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe thinking well, maybe this happens in other households. Because

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Speaker 1: I also, as much as I don't recall exactly what

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Speaker 1: it was that I said to the teacher at school.

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Speaker 1: Something about it tells me it wasn't a disclosure in

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Speaker 1: the way of, you know, being upset and all this

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Speaker 1: is happening. My gut tells me I must have just

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Speaker 1: said some offhand comment, but it was enough to prick

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Speaker 1: their ears up and go, oh, hang on a minute,

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Speaker 1: that doesn't sound right. And I think that played into

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Speaker 1: my having no concept that what was happening was wrong

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Speaker 1: and was not supposed to happen. So I think that's

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Speaker 1: sort of where it left me that I was I

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Speaker 1: was wrong to say something.

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Speaker 2: Let's take a step back, because you said something to

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Speaker 2: your mother first.

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Speaker 1: I'm not sure. Unfortunately, this is part of where my

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Speaker 1: memory fails me. I have faint memory of saying something

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Speaker 1: to her, and I know that is backed up in

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Speaker 1: that sort of handwritten statement because it has then stated

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Speaker 1: there that my mother's response was that sort of she

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Speaker 1: will talk to him about it. But whether that came

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Speaker 1: before or after I mentioned at the school. Therefore, as

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Speaker 1: in was I prompted to say something to my mum?

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Speaker 2: I couldn't tell you because I was shocked by that

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Speaker 2: when I read that statement and it said you spoke

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Speaker 2: to your mother, and she said she'd go and talk

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Speaker 2: to the perpetrator. And I can't help but feel that

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Speaker 2: the proper response would have been, I'll go and talk

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Speaker 2: to the police. I'll get something done about this. I've

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Speaker 2: got to protect you. And I wonder whether and this

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Speaker 2: may be unraveled, because I think if police get active

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Speaker 2: in this case, they can find teachers and other classmates

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Speaker 2: of that era. It's not impossible, and they maybe able

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Speaker 2: to unravel it. But certainly it seems like you weren't

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Speaker 2: believed and you were now the problem. And then it's

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Speaker 2: something that you've also I think blocked out in your memory,

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Speaker 2: was you were put in foster care. I can only

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Speaker 2: imagine you're an eleven year old girl who's been abused

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Speaker 2: and suddenly you're no longer in your family home, the

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Speaker 2: perpetrator is in the family home, and you were in

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Speaker 2: foster care for some period of time.

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Speaker 1: Yes, again, very very much snapshot memories, and really all

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Speaker 1: I remember is I'd gone through two different homes. I

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Speaker 1: have no idea why the change occurred. Could be nothing

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Speaker 1: to do with me, could be other reasons to do

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Speaker 1: with the that sual home setups that I always needed

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Speaker 1: to be moved. But I just have very snapshot memory

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Speaker 1: of the first and very snapshot is in a vague

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Speaker 1: memory of what the first family looked like and what

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Speaker 1: the second family looked like, but probably not enough that

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Speaker 1: I could, you know, ever point them out in you know,

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Speaker 1: if you gave me a line up of photos, I

220
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Speaker 1: probably couldn't point them out. And I certainly couldn't tell

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Speaker 1: anywhere like location. I couldn't tell you if they drove

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Speaker 1: me for ten minutes to get to the house or

223
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Speaker 1: for an hour to get to I absolutely have no

224
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Speaker 1: memory at all. I just remember being told to pack

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Speaker 1: some clothes and then I was out, and then yeah,

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Speaker 1: and even the length of time I was gone, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, i'd only know that by looking at the

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Speaker 1: Social services file that I eventually was sent to even

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Speaker 1: have a gauge of how long I'd been gone for.

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Speaker 2: And there's one moment in the record which says you

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Speaker 2: absconded for a period of days, location unknown. Did you

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Speaker 2: run away or something?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, So that was a bit of a turning point,

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Speaker 1: which didn't I didn't set out to achieve this outcome,

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Speaker 1: but I unfortunately it could have made a difference. And

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Speaker 1: I don't think really actually did so when I was

237
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Speaker 1: about I think I was about fifteen. I'd been out

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Speaker 1: with a boyfriend at the time, and again still in

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Speaker 1: all the midst of you know, struggles of school and

240
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Speaker 1: home and life, and you know, you're putting a lot

241
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Speaker 1: of teenaged anks into all this as well, and it

242
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Speaker 1: was I just remember the time, it wasn't so much

243
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Speaker 1: sort of conscious you know, I'm going to run away

244
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Speaker 1: or I'm going to disappear. It was just more I

245
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Speaker 1: just don't feel like going home tonight, And that was

246
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Speaker 1: really no more thought than that. And next thing, I

247
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Speaker 1: don't know if it was the next day that the

248
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Speaker 1: boyfriend's parent and I couldn't actually tell now where I

249
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Speaker 1: was for that period of time, wouldn't have a cloe,

250
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Speaker 1: But I don't know if my mother had managed to

251
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Speaker 1: get hold of the boyfriend's parents, who got hold of

252
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Speaker 1: him to say the police are involved, you know, like

253
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Speaker 1: where am I kind of thing, and then sort of

254
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Speaker 1: you know, that wasn't my attention, So of course I've

255
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Speaker 1: made contact to say like, you know, well, you know,

256
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Speaker 1: what are you doing? But they were actually getting ready.

257
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Speaker 1: They'd gone around to my mother's house. They'd taken a

258
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Speaker 1: photo of me because they were getting ready to essentially

259
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Speaker 1: put me on the like six o'clock news that evening

260
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Speaker 1: in regards to being, you know, a missing teenager and anyway,

261
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Speaker 1: because at the time of that going to occur, and

262
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Speaker 1: you know, my mother then realizing that she's probably going

263
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Speaker 1: to have to do some fast explaining why my face

264
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Speaker 1: is on the news, she rang family, rang my father

265
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Speaker 1: because my father was not aware of any of this

266
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Speaker 1: that had happened to me. I don't know what she

267
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Speaker 1: told her side of the family, because none of them

268
00:16:12,521 --> 00:16:16,681
Speaker 1: have ever spoken to me. It's just been, I suppose,

269
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Speaker 1: this continuation of this wall of silence. So I don't

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Speaker 1: even know if she was honest with them about why

271
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Speaker 1: I may have just not come home. But she apparently

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Speaker 1: did tell my father, and it was a bit of

273
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Speaker 1: a heated conversation that went on. I couldn't tell you

274
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Speaker 1: abatim as to what was said. There was a lot

275
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Speaker 1: of it I wouldn't have heard because I wasn't right

276
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Speaker 1: there present. But one very distinctive thing that my father

277
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Speaker 1: said to me after that meeting was, of course, you know,

278
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Speaker 1: one of his first questions was why wasn't he told

279
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Speaker 1: at the time, and that the staggering response that my

280
00:16:56,921 --> 00:16:59,761
Speaker 1: mother gave to that question was she didn't think it

281
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Speaker 1: was important, and I don't. I still don't even know

282
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Speaker 1: how you how to process that answer. I didn't think

283
00:17:12,241 --> 00:17:13,720
Speaker 1: it was important.

284
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Speaker 2: I can't either. I can't process that either. And the

285
00:17:17,160 --> 00:17:20,481
Speaker 2: remarkable thing about all this is that despite the fact

286
00:17:20,521 --> 00:17:22,801
Speaker 2: your mother swept us under the carpet, didn't tell people,

287
00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:26,600
Speaker 2: left you in a place of isolation and silence. She

288
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Speaker 2: kept the documents, kept the record of interview of the perpetrator,

289
00:17:31,160 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 2: kept your foster record, kept the statement, even kept a

290
00:17:35,241 --> 00:17:38,360
Speaker 2: magazine that was one of the exhibits in the house.

291
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Speaker 2: How did you find that material?

292
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Speaker 1: So se fast forward to late twenty sixteen, and unfortunate

293
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:54,200
Speaker 1: circumstances required that my two children and myself needed to

294
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Speaker 1: move into her place, and in amongst discovering that you know,

295
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:07,080
Speaker 1: clearly her health has declined, and part of declining that

296
00:18:07,241 --> 00:18:08,960
Speaker 1: you know, I've noticed for a while. But you know,

297
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Speaker 1: there are some things that you don't really hit you

298
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Speaker 1: in the face until you're sort of living, you know,

299
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Speaker 1: with someone. But obviously I could already see when we

300
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Speaker 1: would just visit that, you know, the hoarding that was

301
00:18:20,561 --> 00:18:22,761
Speaker 1: taking place, and you know the amount of times I'd

302
00:18:22,880 --> 00:18:25,041
Speaker 1: go there and spend my visits, you know, trying to

303
00:18:25,080 --> 00:18:29,121
Speaker 1: throw things out just what they've been going on, and

304
00:18:29,201 --> 00:18:32,880
Speaker 1: trying to, you know, continue to clean out. And so

305
00:18:33,160 --> 00:18:37,001
Speaker 1: this was in the built in wardrobe in her bedroom,

306
00:18:37,241 --> 00:18:40,441
Speaker 1: and it was just chocol block with stuff that I'm

307
00:18:40,441 --> 00:18:42,441
Speaker 1: sure she didn't even know what was in there herself,

308
00:18:43,321 --> 00:18:46,281
Speaker 1: and just pulling things out. And yet it's really quite

309
00:18:47,360 --> 00:18:51,160
Speaker 1: shocked as to this paperwork that had come about, and

310
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Speaker 1: paperwork that I didn't actually know existed, let alone that

311
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Speaker 1: she had it. And it was this. The best way

312
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Speaker 1: I can describe it is a penny drop moment where

313
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Speaker 1: things just all into place, I suppose it's the best

314
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Speaker 1: way to describe it. But also a feeling of my god,

315
00:19:11,761 --> 00:19:15,721
Speaker 1: what an idiot I have been all this time because

316
00:19:16,481 --> 00:19:22,041
Speaker 1: I just didn't realize And you feel stupid saying this,

317
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Speaker 1: but I didn't realize she didn't believe me that that

318
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Speaker 1: was what the penny drop was. It was like, oh,

319
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Speaker 1: my God, realize it, because you know, even though I

320
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Speaker 1: couldn't articulate it at the time as a child, and

321
00:19:36,681 --> 00:19:39,360
Speaker 1: then sort of growing up, I knew something was something

322
00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:42,681
Speaker 1: didn't sit right, and something had changed in whatever our

323
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,561
Speaker 1: relationship was before this occurred, it wasn't the same after.

324
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Speaker 1: But I couldn't, you know, articulate that at the time.

325
00:19:50,721 --> 00:19:53,041
Speaker 1: But I knew I would see other families and I,

326
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Speaker 1: you know, and people are different, so you know, you've

327
00:19:55,400 --> 00:19:57,761
Speaker 1: got to be careful making comparisons. But I would just

328
00:19:57,801 --> 00:20:02,080
Speaker 1: see other families and how they would interact with each other,

329
00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:08,121
Speaker 1: and I could just see something was different the relationship,

330
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Speaker 1: the interaction, whatever you want to call it between my

331
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Speaker 1: mother and I. There was something different about it. That

332
00:20:15,281 --> 00:20:16,961
Speaker 1: was a penny drop moment. And that's when it fell

333
00:20:17,001 --> 00:20:19,441
Speaker 1: into place that I realized, my god, that's what it was.

334
00:20:20,001 --> 00:20:26,120
Speaker 1: This I suppose almost arm's length distance between us that

335
00:20:26,321 --> 00:20:30,920
Speaker 1: I carried thinking I was the cause of the issue

336
00:20:30,921 --> 00:20:34,120
Speaker 1: between her and I that I couldn't articulate, like, but

337
00:20:34,120 --> 00:20:37,881
Speaker 1: but it was my fault. So then suddenly realizing no,

338
00:20:38,201 --> 00:20:43,321
Speaker 1: it wasn't my fault. And so with that then as

339
00:20:43,360 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 1: well realizing that, you know what, I never actually was

340
00:20:46,120 --> 00:20:50,281
Speaker 1: told what happened with the outcome. I think I assumed

341
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Speaker 1: that because I knew the police were involved, that they

342
00:20:53,721 --> 00:20:55,840
Speaker 1: would have done their investigation and there would have been

343
00:20:55,880 --> 00:21:00,681
Speaker 1: a court case. But I was never told, but of course,

344
00:21:00,761 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 1: you know, nothing was spoken about. So I thought, well,

345
00:21:03,681 --> 00:21:06,840
Speaker 1: you know, I want to find out myself what happened

346
00:21:07,441 --> 00:21:10,481
Speaker 1: with this case. And so I started off with them

347
00:21:10,721 --> 00:21:17,360
Speaker 1: an FOI to QPS, and they came back with sort

348
00:21:17,400 --> 00:21:20,120
Speaker 1: of essentially like a hands up as, so, oh, we

349
00:21:20,160 --> 00:21:23,561
Speaker 1: don't know, we don't have anything. And so I was like,

350
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:27,640
Speaker 1: what do you mean you don't have anything? I have stuff?

351
00:21:27,640 --> 00:21:30,760
Speaker 1: How do you not have stuff? How do I have

352
00:21:30,801 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 1: a police record of interview and you don't. That makes

353
00:21:35,120 --> 00:21:37,881
Speaker 1: no sense. And to go back on to the earlier

354
00:21:37,921 --> 00:21:42,080
Speaker 1: point about my fears about you know, this case being delayed,

355
00:21:42,241 --> 00:21:46,201
Speaker 1: like I don't know, to bring out a conspiracy theory,

356
00:21:46,441 --> 00:21:49,240
Speaker 1: you know, I sometimes wonder whether they're avoiding the topic

357
00:21:49,321 --> 00:21:53,121
Speaker 1: because maybe they recognize the stuff up that happened back then,

358
00:21:53,321 --> 00:21:59,121
Speaker 1: and so they're trying to avoid recognizing that because obviously

359
00:21:59,120 --> 00:22:03,080
Speaker 1: the best chance of conviction was at the time it

360
00:22:03,120 --> 00:22:06,681
Speaker 1: will be much more difficult now. But anyway, so from that,

361
00:22:06,961 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: you know, I was advised, well, if the police didn't investigate,

362
00:22:10,481 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: then then I can lodge a complaint now and initiate

363
00:22:16,120 --> 00:22:21,521
Speaker 1: an investigation. So that's what I did. Then after I

364
00:22:21,600 --> 00:22:24,120
Speaker 1: think sort of a year or two. So this was

365
00:22:24,160 --> 00:22:28,120
Speaker 1: about twenty seventeen, twenty eighteen when all of this then started,

366
00:22:29,801 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 1: and the first officer we started with the case. About

367
00:22:33,400 --> 00:22:37,080
Speaker 1: a year or so later, I found out that they'd

368
00:22:37,120 --> 00:22:41,360
Speaker 1: closed it and I'm like, what, no one notified me.

369
00:22:41,681 --> 00:22:43,200
Speaker 1: It was only because I was trying to chase it

370
00:22:43,321 --> 00:22:45,640
Speaker 1: up as to what was happening, because I hadn't heard anything,

371
00:22:45,681 --> 00:22:47,761
Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, yeah, the case was closed, And

372
00:22:47,801 --> 00:22:50,440
Speaker 1: they came back with this samement saying, oh, clearly it

373
00:22:50,481 --> 00:22:54,160
Speaker 1: was investigated thoroughly the first time round. And I'm like, oh, really,

374
00:22:54,241 --> 00:22:56,120
Speaker 1: really can you can you show me the evidence that

375
00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,680
Speaker 1: it was clearly investigated the first time round, And so

376
00:22:59,761 --> 00:23:03,561
Speaker 1: I lodged a complaint and so it was reopened now

377
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:08,000
Speaker 1: with the current office. So but we're still talking. We'll

378
00:23:08,041 --> 00:23:11,761
Speaker 1: probably you know, four or five years now that you

379
00:23:11,801 --> 00:23:15,561
Speaker 1: know this, since it's been reopened then the second time,

380
00:23:16,080 --> 00:23:18,841
Speaker 1: which I don't know how long these things normally take,

381
00:23:18,880 --> 00:23:21,760
Speaker 1: but that just seems a rather long period of time.

382
00:23:22,640 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 2: It is, and I think it's your frustration is absolutely justified.

383
00:23:26,120 --> 00:23:29,281
Speaker 2: And look at the material. It is comprehensive. You know

384
00:23:29,321 --> 00:23:31,561
Speaker 2: exactly what the allegations are when they took place, for

385
00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:35,801
Speaker 2: how long your response what happened? Of course, eventually the

386
00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,880
Speaker 2: perpetrator and your mother did break up, but she kept

387
00:23:39,201 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 2: his name until the early two thousands, I believe, so

388
00:23:41,681 --> 00:23:45,521
Speaker 2: she still continued to cling to the remnants of that relationship.

389
00:23:45,521 --> 00:23:48,360
Speaker 2: But what's lacking in the evidence that I've seen is

390
00:23:48,360 --> 00:23:51,321
Speaker 2: your mother's statement. I wonder did she make a statement,

391
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:55,001
Speaker 2: because that would have been key. Whatever conversations that she'd

392
00:23:55,041 --> 00:23:57,721
Speaker 2: had with the perpetrator would have been used in evidence

393
00:23:58,041 --> 00:24:02,080
Speaker 2: to corroborate what you were saying. And I wonder whether

394
00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:04,880
Speaker 2: you were just left high and dry in a situation

395
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:08,080
Speaker 2: where it was just he said she said, he was

396
00:24:08,120 --> 00:24:10,321
Speaker 2: able to sit there and deny it all and there

397
00:24:10,360 --> 00:24:13,241
Speaker 2: was nothing coming up behind to corroborate that.

398
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:18,080
Speaker 1: Exactly. And that's the issue with the fact that whatever

399
00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:22,761
Speaker 1: file they had is gone. So I couldn't tell you

400
00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:24,761
Speaker 1: whether the record of interview that they did with the

401
00:24:24,761 --> 00:24:27,680
Speaker 1: perpetrator is that the only interview they did, or did

402
00:24:27,761 --> 00:24:29,801
Speaker 1: they speak to other people? If they did, where are

403
00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:34,160
Speaker 1: those records of interview. There's not even a log of

404
00:24:34,561 --> 00:24:36,600
Speaker 1: you know expect that they normally have of you know,

405
00:24:37,120 --> 00:24:39,561
Speaker 1: dates and times that you know they and who they've

406
00:24:39,561 --> 00:24:42,321
Speaker 1: spoken to and when they spoke to them, or who

407
00:24:42,360 --> 00:24:45,521
Speaker 1: they're you know, wanting to speak to, like who were

408
00:24:45,761 --> 00:24:49,120
Speaker 1: persons of interest if that was necessary for the case,

409
00:24:49,281 --> 00:24:52,721
Speaker 1: or But there's just like I said, they had, the

410
00:24:52,761 --> 00:24:58,481
Speaker 1: only document they had was this handwritten statement, and they

411
00:24:58,561 --> 00:25:00,680
Speaker 1: turned around to me and said, we don't know what

412
00:25:00,721 --> 00:25:02,880
Speaker 1: this is. We don't like you know, we don't know

413
00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,001
Speaker 1: where this has come from. But that's all they had.

414
00:25:06,360 --> 00:25:09,600
Speaker 2: It's unsigned, it doesn't give away much of its providence,

415
00:25:09,600 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 2: but the allegations are very clear, and it seems to

416
00:25:12,241 --> 00:25:15,881
Speaker 2: be what is put to the perpetrator in his interview.

417
00:25:15,880 --> 00:25:19,321
Speaker 2: It's drawn from this document. Seems very clear, and I

418
00:25:19,321 --> 00:25:21,281
Speaker 2: don't want to go into the detail because it is harrowing,

419
00:25:21,441 --> 00:25:24,241
Speaker 2: and I really appreciate you talking about this at all.

420
00:25:24,640 --> 00:25:27,721
Speaker 2: But what we see is over a period of three years,

421
00:25:28,281 --> 00:25:34,080
Speaker 2: a grooming sexual assault that stopped short of actual penetration

422
00:25:34,561 --> 00:25:38,321
Speaker 2: fucking use that word, but something that was clearly very

423
00:25:38,400 --> 00:25:42,241
Speaker 2: damaging to you and to not be believed. But I

424
00:25:42,281 --> 00:25:45,441
Speaker 2: think also to find the evidence in the cupboard, i'd

425
00:25:45,441 --> 00:25:47,281
Speaker 2: suggest going back to the cupboard again and see if

426
00:25:47,281 --> 00:25:49,521
Speaker 2: there's any more in there. You know that may be

427
00:25:49,640 --> 00:25:51,801
Speaker 2: useful to the police. Have you done that.

428
00:25:53,640 --> 00:25:57,080
Speaker 1: Or actually no longer in that house, But there's potential

429
00:25:57,241 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: that other documents exist because of the sheer hoarding that

430
00:26:01,801 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: my mother did. That I'm still drowning in, you know

431
00:26:05,521 --> 00:26:07,401
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff. You know, I just ran out

432
00:26:07,400 --> 00:26:10,321
Speaker 1: of time to sort through things. Things just had to

433
00:26:10,321 --> 00:26:13,480
Speaker 1: be boxed up and whatnot and just moved. And so

434
00:26:13,521 --> 00:26:17,160
Speaker 1: there's still boxes and crates and filing cabinets full of paperwork.

435
00:26:17,201 --> 00:26:19,641
Speaker 1: And one day I might be able to sit down

436
00:26:19,640 --> 00:26:22,360
Speaker 1: and go through it and you know, magically come across

437
00:26:22,640 --> 00:26:29,641
Speaker 1: something else. But just to point out there it there

438
00:26:29,921 --> 00:26:37,960
Speaker 1: was penetration. He did use his fingers, and he had

439
00:26:38,761 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 1: made a start with his penis. He just hadn't fully

440
00:26:42,120 --> 00:26:46,561
Speaker 1: inserted it, but he had inserted essentially, like I suppose

441
00:26:46,561 --> 00:26:52,681
Speaker 1: you could say, the head of the penis, and that's

442
00:26:52,681 --> 00:26:54,200
Speaker 1: the thing that's part of the groomy. I think he

443
00:26:54,281 --> 00:26:56,920
Speaker 1: was slowly working up to where he would have the

444
00:26:57,041 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 1: day would have come where he would be fully inserting it.

445
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:05,921
Speaker 1: But obviously, you know, having said something, you know, interjected

446
00:27:06,241 --> 00:27:11,680
Speaker 1: any further acts from occurring. But absolutely I have no

447
00:27:11,840 --> 00:27:14,161
Speaker 1: doubt that if if I hadn't happened to have said

448
00:27:14,160 --> 00:27:18,201
Speaker 1: something that these acts would have just continued and potentially

449
00:27:18,241 --> 00:27:18,961
Speaker 1: continued for.

450
00:27:18,961 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 2: Years, which they did for three long years.

451
00:27:22,441 --> 00:27:26,160
Speaker 1: Well they already had which yeah, which is why this

452
00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:31,920
Speaker 1: wasn't you know, some random you know, active you know,

453
00:27:32,041 --> 00:27:34,480
Speaker 1: chrome of opportunity as they say that, you know, it

454
00:27:34,521 --> 00:27:37,921
Speaker 1: was the stranger who had to catch me walking down

455
00:27:37,921 --> 00:27:40,001
Speaker 1: the street, grab pulled me into the bushes, did what

456
00:27:40,041 --> 00:27:42,680
Speaker 1: they did, and then took off and never seen again.

457
00:27:42,721 --> 00:27:45,160
Speaker 1: And I'm not making light of those I'm just saying

458
00:27:45,360 --> 00:27:50,321
Speaker 1: just bringing up the difference between someone who's got unfettered

459
00:27:50,360 --> 00:27:53,801
Speaker 1: access to in the four walls of the home with

460
00:27:54,441 --> 00:27:59,640
Speaker 1: potentially a fairly ignorant parent because as mentioned, you know,

461
00:28:01,281 --> 00:28:04,321
Speaker 1: was she completely in the dark about these acts occurring?

462
00:28:05,201 --> 00:28:08,360
Speaker 1: Did she know and did she turn a blind eye?

463
00:28:08,681 --> 00:28:11,720
Speaker 1: Or at the very least should she have known, should

464
00:28:11,721 --> 00:28:16,640
Speaker 1: she have been suspicious and still decided to Oh, we

465
00:28:16,681 --> 00:28:19,160
Speaker 1: don't talk about those sort of things, you know, that

466
00:28:19,481 --> 00:28:24,281
Speaker 1: sort of era and mindset that that carried through as

467
00:28:24,360 --> 00:28:28,200
Speaker 1: to you know, why she made up other reasons as

468
00:28:28,241 --> 00:28:33,400
Speaker 1: to why the marriage broke down because you know, she

469
00:28:33,441 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: couldn't possibly face telling people the.

470
00:28:36,441 --> 00:28:41,801
Speaker 2: Truth for fear of being judged, I guess.

471
00:28:41,561 --> 00:28:45,241
Speaker 1: I I don't know, and on course, you know, I'm

472
00:28:45,241 --> 00:28:49,201
Speaker 1: never going to get an answer from her anymore. But

473
00:28:49,281 --> 00:28:52,961
Speaker 1: that lie is so ingrained in her that even a

474
00:28:53,041 --> 00:28:58,281
Speaker 1: few years ago, during an assessment with a medical specialist

475
00:28:58,361 --> 00:29:00,641
Speaker 1: you know who just you know, was asking about background,

476
00:29:00,881 --> 00:29:04,881
Speaker 1: social history, you know, family background, and asked about you know,

477
00:29:05,241 --> 00:29:07,240
Speaker 1: general questions. You know, how many times you've been married,

478
00:29:07,441 --> 00:29:10,841
Speaker 1: you know, invariably you know, why did the marriages ended?

479
00:29:10,841 --> 00:29:15,601
Speaker 1: And listening to her give reason as to why the

480
00:29:15,641 --> 00:29:21,881
Speaker 1: second marriage ended, and I just was just flabbercusted that this.

481
00:29:22,601 --> 00:29:25,121
Speaker 1: I think the lie is so ingrained that she completely

482
00:29:25,121 --> 00:29:25,801
Speaker 1: believes it.

483
00:29:26,881 --> 00:29:28,601
Speaker 2: I should say that your mother is still alive, but

484
00:29:28,641 --> 00:29:33,761
Speaker 2: she's suffering dementia, so she's beyond any chance to get

485
00:29:33,881 --> 00:29:37,881
Speaker 2: definitive assistance again. But as I read the record of interview,

486
00:29:38,121 --> 00:29:41,441
Speaker 2: the perpetrator is able, over an hour or so interview

487
00:29:41,761 --> 00:29:45,521
Speaker 2: to deny everything except for one thing. He does admit

488
00:29:46,121 --> 00:29:50,921
Speaker 2: that he showed you a pornographic magazine and as if

489
00:29:50,921 --> 00:29:52,200
Speaker 2: that you were interested in it.

490
00:29:52,561 --> 00:29:54,721
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the excuse he gives when they ask him

491
00:29:54,721 --> 00:29:57,121
Speaker 1: why he showed it to me, and his answer was

492
00:29:57,281 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: because she wanted to see it, which just astounds me

493
00:30:01,881 --> 00:30:05,041
Speaker 1: that it just seemed to be accepted as an answer

494
00:30:05,321 --> 00:30:07,921
Speaker 1: by the police as well, and not only that, And

495
00:30:07,961 --> 00:30:10,041
Speaker 1: this is what leads me to you know, I have

496
00:30:10,081 --> 00:30:13,161
Speaker 1: a few reasons as to why I believe I could

497
00:30:13,161 --> 00:30:17,561
Speaker 1: not be his first and only victim, but one of

498
00:30:17,601 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: them is because I, you know, also since tried to

499
00:30:20,881 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: lodge a complaint in regards to their inaction on that admission.

500
00:30:26,721 --> 00:30:28,921
Speaker 1: And of course it's come back to me telling me

501
00:30:29,001 --> 00:30:33,601
Speaker 1: that that wasn't an offense at that time, which you know,

502
00:30:34,201 --> 00:30:36,921
Speaker 1: is frustrating, but of course you know, of course, what

503
00:30:36,921 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 1: can you do about it? But it still says to

504
00:30:40,521 --> 00:30:45,281
Speaker 1: me that he seemed to know that. Otherwise, why would

505
00:30:45,281 --> 00:30:49,881
Speaker 1: he admit to that unless he knew that they couldn't

506
00:30:49,921 --> 00:30:53,961
Speaker 1: do anything about that, And that in itself should be

507
00:30:54,041 --> 00:30:57,241
Speaker 1: highly suspicious that this is someone who knows the system.

508
00:30:58,041 --> 00:31:01,440
Speaker 1: And even if he hasn't had that accusation landed to

509
00:31:01,521 --> 00:31:05,921
Speaker 1: him before. I mean, I've listened and you know, to

510
00:31:06,281 --> 00:31:10,841
Speaker 1: enough documentaries on this topic to know that there's a

511
00:31:10,841 --> 00:31:14,241
Speaker 1: society of them. They know who each other is, they

512
00:31:14,281 --> 00:31:18,961
Speaker 1: interact with each other and pass tips on. And I

513
00:31:19,041 --> 00:31:22,480
Speaker 1: think that you know, he's found out from others that

514
00:31:23,641 --> 00:31:26,801
Speaker 1: they can't do you for that, because how else would

515
00:31:26,841 --> 00:31:28,801
Speaker 1: you know, Why would you admit to that, why would

516
00:31:28,841 --> 00:31:32,921
Speaker 1: you say no to everything except that unless you knew

517
00:31:33,241 --> 00:31:34,681
Speaker 1: they couldn't do anything about that?

518
00:31:35,441 --> 00:31:39,121
Speaker 2: Because you covered this in that handwritten statement. What did

519
00:31:39,161 --> 00:31:42,801
Speaker 2: you say was the purpose of showing you that magazine?

520
00:31:43,641 --> 00:31:46,841
Speaker 1: So my memory, apart from whatever I've said in there,

521
00:31:47,001 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: just separate to that, my own memories of those magazines,

522
00:31:50,281 --> 00:31:52,321
Speaker 1: was his showing me. And I think, you know, obviously

523
00:31:52,401 --> 00:31:56,561
Speaker 1: I didn't know these magazines existed, and so it would

524
00:31:56,601 --> 00:31:59,961
Speaker 1: have started by him showing me and wanting me to

525
00:32:00,161 --> 00:32:04,361
Speaker 1: look through it and start to pick out what I'd

526
00:32:04,401 --> 00:32:08,240
Speaker 1: like to try. Essentially as disgusting.

527
00:32:07,721 --> 00:32:10,401
Speaker 2: As that is as an eleven year old, this is

528
00:32:10,401 --> 00:32:11,881
Speaker 2: a forty three year old man.

529
00:32:12,001 --> 00:32:15,041
Speaker 1: This was I was younger, because this is happening over

530
00:32:15,081 --> 00:32:17,921
Speaker 1: that three year period. So this wasn't just right at

531
00:32:17,921 --> 00:32:20,561
Speaker 1: the end, So I could have been It could have

532
00:32:20,921 --> 00:32:24,641
Speaker 1: started when I was eight and praying on the fact

533
00:32:24,721 --> 00:32:27,241
Speaker 1: that I have no idea that any of this is

534
00:32:27,681 --> 00:32:31,881
Speaker 1: inappropriate or wrong, and just going on thinking, obviously thinking

535
00:32:31,921 --> 00:32:35,681
Speaker 1: it's some sort of game or like whatever. He had

536
00:32:35,841 --> 00:32:39,561
Speaker 1: managed to convince me of had worked, and yes, so

537
00:32:39,641 --> 00:32:44,401
Speaker 1: wanting me to pick out things to try. And there

538
00:32:44,401 --> 00:32:48,641
Speaker 1: probably was a time where I had said to you know,

539
00:32:49,081 --> 00:32:51,401
Speaker 1: I'd asked him, you know, to get the book to

540
00:32:51,401 --> 00:32:53,601
Speaker 1: look through it, because is what this is what the

541
00:32:53,641 --> 00:32:56,520
Speaker 1: grooming was, this is what he had been, you know,

542
00:32:56,801 --> 00:32:59,000
Speaker 1: getting me to do. And so I was just you know,

543
00:32:59,081 --> 00:33:02,561
Speaker 1: being you know, the good child and you know, thinking

544
00:33:02,601 --> 00:33:07,081
Speaker 1: I'm doing what what to expect it of me? Which,

545
00:33:07,361 --> 00:33:10,041
Speaker 1: you know, it's just horrifying to think that that's that's

546
00:33:10,641 --> 00:33:11,321
Speaker 1: where you were.

547
00:33:12,041 --> 00:33:16,761
Speaker 2: You've been brainwashed by this individual. And when in the

548
00:33:16,801 --> 00:33:21,121
Speaker 2: interview he was asked, okay, you say this didn't happen.

549
00:33:21,641 --> 00:33:24,601
Speaker 2: Why do you think Fleur is saying this, he said, well,

550
00:33:24,961 --> 00:33:27,601
Speaker 2: I think it's because I make her do the right thing,

551
00:33:28,441 --> 00:33:32,921
Speaker 2: falling back on his authority as a father figure. It's monstrous.

552
00:33:33,561 --> 00:33:40,481
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's hard to comment on actually, because we talked

553
00:33:40,481 --> 00:33:41,481
Speaker 1: about this off air.

554
00:33:41,961 --> 00:33:45,601
Speaker 2: The effect that it's had on you and your your childhood,

555
00:33:45,601 --> 00:33:50,761
Speaker 2: these important formative years where you are you're into puberty

556
00:33:50,961 --> 00:33:54,841
Speaker 2: or forming your views about sexuality, and you have this

557
00:33:54,961 --> 00:34:01,841
Speaker 2: monster who's exploiting you at these critical moments. What effect,

558
00:34:02,321 --> 00:34:03,841
Speaker 2: how do you think it has had on you and

559
00:34:03,881 --> 00:34:08,121
Speaker 2: the way you've formed if you're the world and your sexuality.

560
00:34:08,881 --> 00:34:12,681
Speaker 1: Oh look, it's probably even affected me more than what

561
00:34:12,801 --> 00:34:15,561
Speaker 1: I realized. It's affected me, but it sets you on

562
00:34:15,601 --> 00:34:20,441
Speaker 1: this trajectory, and the one for me just seemed to

563
00:34:20,601 --> 00:34:28,161
Speaker 1: be trauma after trauma. There were in comparison, albeit more minor,

564
00:34:28,201 --> 00:34:32,561
Speaker 1: but there were other occasions of an assault. You know,

565
00:34:33,241 --> 00:34:39,201
Speaker 1: I was assaulted in a cinema and I froze at

566
00:34:39,201 --> 00:34:44,041
Speaker 1: the time when it happened, and I mentioned it. I

567
00:34:44,041 --> 00:34:47,001
Speaker 1: remember mentioning it to my friend who had gone to

568
00:34:47,201 --> 00:34:50,521
Speaker 1: the cinema with After the cinema, and I also remember,

569
00:34:50,521 --> 00:34:53,121
Speaker 1: and I don't mean this to be derogatory to my friend,

570
00:34:53,161 --> 00:34:54,921
Speaker 1: but I remember it was sort of turned into a

571
00:34:54,921 --> 00:34:58,601
Speaker 1: bit of a joke and it was being laughed about,

572
00:34:59,521 --> 00:35:02,641
Speaker 1: and I probably participated in the joke, but inside, you know,

573
00:35:03,241 --> 00:35:05,641
Speaker 1: you feel this sort of discomforts like and of course

574
00:35:05,641 --> 00:35:08,921
Speaker 1: looking back and go why was this being joked about.

575
00:35:09,481 --> 00:35:16,321
Speaker 1: There was a family friend of my father's who you know,

576
00:35:16,641 --> 00:35:23,401
Speaker 1: he was grooming me towards something and again he so

577
00:35:23,521 --> 00:35:28,681
Speaker 1: that started off. He was someone of European descent, and

578
00:35:28,761 --> 00:35:32,801
Speaker 1: you know how sometimes they're very I don't know how

579
00:35:32,841 --> 00:35:35,841
Speaker 1: to describe it. They're very family orientated, that big families,

580
00:35:36,001 --> 00:35:38,401
Speaker 1: you know, they're all kind of you know, giving each other.

581
00:35:38,681 --> 00:35:40,921
Speaker 1: You know, you get the double kiss, you know, on

582
00:35:40,961 --> 00:35:43,881
Speaker 1: your cheeks, you get the big hugs. And so when

583
00:35:43,961 --> 00:35:46,561
Speaker 1: it starts off like that, you put it down to

584
00:35:47,161 --> 00:35:49,121
Speaker 1: that's just their culture, that's just the way they are.

585
00:35:49,161 --> 00:35:52,681
Speaker 1: But of course it started to slowly mold a bit

586
00:35:52,761 --> 00:35:56,361
Speaker 1: more than that, and initially I would just right off, guy, No,

587
00:35:56,681 --> 00:35:59,201
Speaker 1: I'm just you know, being silly. It's not that at all,

588
00:35:59,281 --> 00:36:02,841
Speaker 1: until there was one incident where it was much more

589
00:36:03,641 --> 00:36:08,521
Speaker 1: obvious that, no, this is not just their cultureal you know,

590
00:36:08,681 --> 00:36:12,601
Speaker 1: giving everyone hugs. This was this is actually, you know,

591
00:36:12,961 --> 00:36:13,681
Speaker 1: more more.

592
00:36:13,561 --> 00:36:16,281
Speaker 2: Of an assault, raping you and so forth.

593
00:36:16,481 --> 00:36:21,201
Speaker 1: Essentially, yes, and again I kind of froze, and I

594
00:36:21,241 --> 00:36:25,161
Speaker 1: reported it to my father, and my father, I guess,

595
00:36:25,441 --> 00:36:30,121
Speaker 1: to his credit to a degree, he believed me that

596
00:36:30,161 --> 00:36:36,001
Speaker 1: I was probably i know, seventeen eighteen maybe at the

597
00:36:36,081 --> 00:36:40,201
Speaker 1: time that this was occurring, and he confronted this friend,

598
00:36:40,281 --> 00:36:43,241
Speaker 1: and I think that ended the friendship. Like my father was,

599
00:36:43,321 --> 00:36:45,921
Speaker 1: you know, I'm done with you, and I think they'd

600
00:36:45,961 --> 00:36:49,161
Speaker 1: been friends for a very long time. But of course

601
00:36:49,161 --> 00:36:50,801
Speaker 1: I look back now it's like there was still no

602
00:36:50,841 --> 00:36:51,961
Speaker 1: police report made.

603
00:36:52,521 --> 00:36:56,801
Speaker 2: Well, that's right again. Again, you say something and it

604
00:36:56,881 --> 00:37:00,281
Speaker 2: has an impact on somebody else that you're now responsible for,

605
00:37:00,521 --> 00:37:04,761
Speaker 2: and there's nobody in your corner. There's nobody seeking justice

606
00:37:04,801 --> 00:37:07,561
Speaker 2: for you. You and I can see why now you've

607
00:37:07,561 --> 00:37:10,281
Speaker 2: just said enough of this, enough of this. You found

608
00:37:10,361 --> 00:37:13,281
Speaker 2: this material in the cupboard, that you've seen your mother's

609
00:37:14,161 --> 00:37:17,641
Speaker 2: lack of action. You know this individual is living in

610
00:37:17,721 --> 00:37:20,521
Speaker 2: Melbourne and you think, stuff it, there's going to be

611
00:37:20,521 --> 00:37:23,960
Speaker 2: some action. Now. How do you feel about how it's

612
00:37:24,001 --> 00:37:27,201
Speaker 2: gone for these years? It's still not happening, it's still

613
00:37:27,201 --> 00:37:32,001
Speaker 2: not making progress, and each day brings the likelihood that

614
00:37:32,121 --> 00:37:35,241
Speaker 2: this perpetrator will get away with it because you'll be

615
00:37:35,241 --> 00:37:35,921
Speaker 2: in the cemetery.

616
00:37:36,921 --> 00:37:40,161
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's constantly in the back of your mind that

617
00:37:40,601 --> 00:37:42,881
Speaker 1: one of these days, the next phone call from the

618
00:37:42,921 --> 00:37:46,561
Speaker 1: police will be to tell me that the investigations closed

619
00:37:46,681 --> 00:37:52,361
Speaker 1: because the perpetrator has died. And it's a huge concern.

620
00:37:52,801 --> 00:37:55,241
Speaker 1: Hence why sort of you know, I'm trying to find

621
00:37:55,521 --> 00:37:58,801
Speaker 1: you know, how can I, shall we say, help encourage

622
00:37:58,801 --> 00:38:03,321
Speaker 1: the police to give my case priority because it's a

623
00:38:03,441 --> 00:38:06,601
Speaker 1: unique priority. You know, I'm sure there are other older

624
00:38:06,601 --> 00:38:10,601
Speaker 1: perpetrators out there of current cases, and maybe the threat

625
00:38:10,641 --> 00:38:13,801
Speaker 1: for them dying is also real, But I can't say

626
00:38:13,881 --> 00:38:16,281
Speaker 1: that would be all of them, that the threat of

627
00:38:17,081 --> 00:38:19,881
Speaker 1: dying from old age is the reason for the priority

628
00:38:19,921 --> 00:38:21,841
Speaker 1: for other cases. I think it's just that, oh, there,

629
00:38:22,721 --> 00:38:25,681
Speaker 1: they're much more recent, and that's why you know, they're

630
00:38:26,361 --> 00:38:29,440
Speaker 1: striking while the iron's hot. So they say, well, it's

631
00:38:30,081 --> 00:38:30,561
Speaker 1: I think it's.

632
00:38:30,441 --> 00:38:32,241
Speaker 2: A getting a little bit cold again for mine. But

633
00:38:32,841 --> 00:38:36,241
Speaker 2: you know what, I find encouraging. That's probably the wrong word.

634
00:38:36,281 --> 00:38:40,440
Speaker 2: But despite this trauma, despite all you've been through, you've

635
00:38:40,441 --> 00:38:42,641
Speaker 2: had a functional life, You've had your own children, you

636
00:38:42,721 --> 00:38:45,201
Speaker 2: work as a theater, nurse in the hospital, you're in

637
00:38:45,241 --> 00:38:50,881
Speaker 2: a compassionate, caring profession. You've got on with life despite

638
00:38:50,921 --> 00:38:54,801
Speaker 2: these things. And I think for you not to get justice,

639
00:38:55,161 --> 00:38:59,161
Speaker 2: you've never complained, you've never given up, but to not

640
00:38:59,241 --> 00:39:02,201
Speaker 2: get justice at this stage is a borrent to me.

641
00:39:02,681 --> 00:39:04,721
Speaker 2: And I'm sure there are people listening out there right

642
00:39:04,761 --> 00:39:10,081
Speaker 2: now who were also victims of historical sexual assault. Now,

643
00:39:10,121 --> 00:39:12,561
Speaker 2: don't just sit there, don't just sit there, send us

644
00:39:12,561 --> 00:39:15,601
Speaker 2: an email, get in touch with crime stoppers. What do

645
00:39:15,681 --> 00:39:18,441
Speaker 2: you hope will happen. Now, I'm good, by the way,

646
00:39:18,441 --> 00:39:20,921
Speaker 2: I'm going to send this this podcast to Queensland Police.

647
00:39:20,921 --> 00:39:23,121
Speaker 2: I'm going to send it to Victoria Police, and we're

648
00:39:23,121 --> 00:39:26,401
Speaker 2: going to demand some answers on this what's actually happening.

649
00:39:26,721 --> 00:39:30,161
Speaker 2: If I can find this individual, why can't they, Why

650
00:39:30,161 --> 00:39:33,201
Speaker 2: can't they knock on his door and ask him after

651
00:39:33,241 --> 00:39:37,601
Speaker 2: all these years, what happened? And also whether he can

652
00:39:37,641 --> 00:39:40,241
Speaker 2: go back to Queensland and face up to these allegations,

653
00:39:40,281 --> 00:39:46,881
Speaker 2: because you're right, these pedophiles, they're rarely a one off thing.

654
00:39:47,041 --> 00:39:50,961
Speaker 2: There's other instances, and we've got dozens and dozens of

655
00:39:51,041 --> 00:39:55,521
Speaker 2: historical sexual assault cases involving women just like you, and

656
00:39:55,561 --> 00:39:57,121
Speaker 2: he may well be right for one or two of

657
00:39:57,121 --> 00:40:00,721
Speaker 2: those or more So. If you don't ask the question,

658
00:40:00,801 --> 00:40:03,960
Speaker 2: you don't get the answer. And right now he's likely

659
00:40:04,001 --> 00:40:07,681
Speaker 2: to escape out the chimney of the crematorium. And that's

660
00:40:08,041 --> 00:40:10,001
Speaker 2: just wrong, it's monstrous.

661
00:40:10,881 --> 00:40:14,881
Speaker 1: Yes, And so that's one of my reasons why I

662
00:40:14,921 --> 00:40:19,401
Speaker 1: don't believe I would be his first, because when you

663
00:40:19,441 --> 00:40:21,801
Speaker 1: look back at the age he would have been when

664
00:40:22,121 --> 00:40:25,601
Speaker 1: he came across me, he'd already was in his forties.

665
00:40:26,881 --> 00:40:32,481
Speaker 1: I can't, I just can't believe that he suddenly, you know,

666
00:40:32,601 --> 00:40:38,761
Speaker 1: developed this behavior in his forties. I don't believe that.

667
00:40:39,201 --> 00:40:40,961
Speaker 1: I'm much more likely to believe that there are other

668
00:40:41,041 --> 00:40:44,921
Speaker 1: victims who may have come forward and said something and

669
00:40:44,921 --> 00:40:48,961
Speaker 1: were also not believed, or I'm sure you've known that

670
00:40:49,001 --> 00:40:50,881
Speaker 1: this happened. A lot of cases, people don't say anything

671
00:40:50,921 --> 00:40:54,161
Speaker 1: at all. They just bottle it up and do hold

672
00:40:54,201 --> 00:40:57,681
Speaker 1: it with them for forty fifty, sixty, whatever year is,

673
00:40:57,761 --> 00:41:01,241
Speaker 1: until in their old age they finally will say something,

674
00:41:01,641 --> 00:41:05,121
Speaker 1: or they wait till the perpetrators died or relevant party

675
00:41:05,241 --> 00:41:10,641
Speaker 1: have died before they say something. I will just go

676
00:41:10,801 --> 00:41:14,641
Speaker 1: back to your mention about my functional life. I disagree

677
00:41:14,721 --> 00:41:17,521
Speaker 1: that it's been functional. It may in somewhat seem like

678
00:41:17,521 --> 00:41:21,281
Speaker 1: that on the outside, but it's been It's been a struggle.

679
00:41:21,481 --> 00:41:24,721
Speaker 1: You know. Yes, some are registered nurse, so I have

680
00:41:24,761 --> 00:41:28,201
Speaker 1: a degree from UNI. But that was a tough slog.

681
00:41:28,441 --> 00:41:30,921
Speaker 1: That was hard because of my struggles, because of my

682
00:41:32,521 --> 00:41:36,161
Speaker 1: lack of self esteem of believing that I could do it,

683
00:41:36,201 --> 00:41:39,321
Speaker 1: that I was worthy of it, which goes right back

684
00:41:39,361 --> 00:41:43,121
Speaker 1: to the same struggles I had in schooling, not being supported,

685
00:41:43,641 --> 00:41:45,681
Speaker 1: having this trauma that no one was allowed to know

686
00:41:45,801 --> 00:41:50,321
Speaker 1: about alone you know, helped me through the relationship that

687
00:41:50,401 --> 00:41:53,841
Speaker 1: produced my two children, was a domestic violence relationship for

688
00:41:54,281 --> 00:41:57,921
Speaker 1: many years. And you and again I seem to be

689
00:41:57,961 --> 00:42:01,161
Speaker 1: ahead of this curve when it comes to you know, catchphrases.

690
00:42:01,201 --> 00:42:03,521
Speaker 1: And so I was a victim of grooming by my

691
00:42:03,561 --> 00:42:07,000
Speaker 1: perpetrator before they knew what grooming was. All the same

692
00:42:07,041 --> 00:42:10,361
Speaker 1: with a lot that happened in this domestic violence relationship,

693
00:42:10,401 --> 00:42:13,681
Speaker 1: which was a lot of the you know, coercive control. Well,

694
00:42:13,681 --> 00:42:16,881
Speaker 1: people didn't know what that was then, I mean, domestic

695
00:42:16,961 --> 00:42:21,681
Speaker 1: violence itself was barely recognized. And even then, you know,

696
00:42:22,721 --> 00:42:26,641
Speaker 1: you really, you know, unless you turned up essentially on

697
00:42:26,721 --> 00:42:30,921
Speaker 1: death's door having been beaten to a pulp, you weren't believed.

698
00:42:31,241 --> 00:42:33,601
Speaker 1: And even then you probably you might have been sort

699
00:42:33,601 --> 00:42:36,281
Speaker 1: of well, what did you do that made him angry?

700
00:42:36,441 --> 00:42:39,721
Speaker 1: Like there was and even today, like we've moved a

701
00:42:39,721 --> 00:42:42,441
Speaker 1: long way with domestic violence, but we're still a long

702
00:42:42,481 --> 00:42:45,881
Speaker 1: way short when it comes to, you know, the prevention

703
00:42:46,081 --> 00:42:49,961
Speaker 1: and the management, et cetera. And so every step just

704
00:42:50,001 --> 00:42:53,841
Speaker 1: seems to have been a struggle. I I'm single. I've

705
00:42:53,881 --> 00:42:57,921
Speaker 1: been single for a long time because you know, one

706
00:42:58,521 --> 00:43:01,321
Speaker 1: probably the most important factor to have in a relationship

707
00:43:01,401 --> 00:43:05,001
Speaker 1: is trust and I just don't know I can never

708
00:43:05,481 --> 00:43:09,201
Speaker 1: could ever trust anyone again, because you know, to be

709
00:43:09,201 --> 00:43:11,761
Speaker 1: in a relationship, to have that sort of closeness, that

710
00:43:11,961 --> 00:43:16,361
Speaker 1: level of you know, intimacy and so forth, that's a

711
00:43:16,401 --> 00:43:18,921
Speaker 1: lot of trust that you in part to somebody else,

712
00:43:19,201 --> 00:43:22,001
Speaker 1: and I don't know that I can do that. So

713
00:43:22,001 --> 00:43:26,921
Speaker 1: so yes, I disagree with being functional. I think if anything,

714
00:43:26,921 --> 00:43:29,241
Speaker 1: I'm probably just that, you know, it's sort of not

715
00:43:30,441 --> 00:43:34,201
Speaker 1: really living. It's not you know, there's aspects of happiness,

716
00:43:34,201 --> 00:43:37,601
Speaker 1: but I wouldn't say overall it's a happy life. You know.

717
00:43:37,881 --> 00:43:41,601
Speaker 1: I'm now, you know, in the position of caring, ironically

718
00:43:41,681 --> 00:43:46,041
Speaker 1: caring for my mother with her dementia, despite you know,

719
00:43:46,161 --> 00:43:50,041
Speaker 1: essentially the lack of care that was offered to me

720
00:43:50,721 --> 00:43:54,081
Speaker 1: in my time of need. And there's you know, other things,

721
00:43:55,401 --> 00:43:57,441
Speaker 1: other things in there as well in the mix, just

722
00:43:57,641 --> 00:44:03,081
Speaker 1: because you know, life can be crap sometimes. But out

723
00:44:03,121 --> 00:44:07,001
Speaker 1: of this, I just obviously I'd like, you know, to believe,

724
00:44:07,121 --> 00:44:09,721
Speaker 1: to get a move on. But I would also really

725
00:44:09,761 --> 00:44:13,921
Speaker 1: implore that if there was anyone for their own circumstances,

726
00:44:14,041 --> 00:44:17,681
Speaker 1: to come forward, because you know, particularly if it turns

727
00:44:17,681 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: out that there's anyone who happened to have the same

728
00:44:20,441 --> 00:44:23,721
Speaker 1: perpetrator as me. I would hope that that would send

729
00:44:23,721 --> 00:44:27,921
Speaker 1: the investigation forward in leaps and bounds, just by the

730
00:44:28,081 --> 00:44:32,121
Speaker 1: sheer fact that there's someone else who can attest to

731
00:44:32,961 --> 00:44:36,561
Speaker 1: being a victim of his, because there must be out there.

732
00:44:36,881 --> 00:44:38,561
Speaker 1: I just can't believe that there wouldn't be.

733
00:44:38,881 --> 00:44:40,641
Speaker 2: I think you're probably right. He was working as an

734
00:44:40,641 --> 00:44:44,161
Speaker 2: interstate truck driver in this period, so he was mobile,

735
00:44:44,281 --> 00:44:47,041
Speaker 2: he was moving around the country, so it could well be.

736
00:44:47,481 --> 00:44:51,121
Speaker 2: I realized talking to you, how I lack the words

737
00:44:51,481 --> 00:44:54,761
Speaker 2: to really understand what you've been through and to help

738
00:44:54,801 --> 00:44:57,641
Speaker 2: you communicate. And you've done an amazing job in doing that.

739
00:44:58,081 --> 00:45:01,641
Speaker 2: And also I can sense the deep well of trauma

740
00:45:01,721 --> 00:45:03,841
Speaker 2: there is not just for you, but a whole generation

741
00:45:03,961 --> 00:45:08,721
Speaker 2: of young girls and women who suffered these indignities, these

742
00:45:08,801 --> 00:45:12,241
Speaker 2: crimes back in the eighties. Because the more I learn

743
00:45:12,281 --> 00:45:14,361
Speaker 2: about this, I've done in several cases now and it's

744
00:45:14,401 --> 00:45:18,001
Speaker 2: mister cruel in Victoria, cases like that where young girls

745
00:45:18,041 --> 00:45:21,921
Speaker 2: were abducted and sexually assaulted, and it was almost treated

746
00:45:21,961 --> 00:45:25,361
Speaker 2: as a social welfare issue back then. And that's something

747
00:45:25,401 --> 00:45:27,881
Speaker 2: that a child will eventually get over and integrate into

748
00:45:27,921 --> 00:45:31,321
Speaker 2: their lives, and your story just brings it home that

749
00:45:31,321 --> 00:45:34,041
Speaker 2: that's not the case at all. And I apologize for

750
00:45:34,081 --> 00:45:36,921
Speaker 2: even saying the word functional. I realized it's the wrong word.

751
00:45:37,401 --> 00:45:39,241
Speaker 2: You've done an amazing job. You said to me last night,

752
00:45:39,281 --> 00:45:43,440
Speaker 2: you feel like a broken cup, just in pieces, and

753
00:45:43,721 --> 00:45:46,361
Speaker 2: I can't imagine what that's like. I just admire your

754
00:45:46,401 --> 00:45:50,361
Speaker 2: strength for putting yourself a through a police investigation when

755
00:45:50,441 --> 00:45:53,521
Speaker 2: you've got to dragoon them and push them at every step,

756
00:45:54,041 --> 00:45:58,521
Speaker 2: and also do this interview because I'm sure there are

757
00:45:58,521 --> 00:46:02,001
Speaker 2: women listening right now, and you know who you are,

758
00:46:03,281 --> 00:46:06,241
Speaker 2: you know what you've been through, and you deserve justice too.

759
00:46:07,601 --> 00:46:10,281
Speaker 2: So if anything comes out of this, and I certainly

760
00:46:10,281 --> 00:46:11,641
Speaker 2: hope it does, and I'm going to keep pushing this.

761
00:46:11,641 --> 00:46:12,961
Speaker 2: As I said, I'm going to send the podcast to

762
00:46:13,041 --> 00:46:15,601
Speaker 2: Victoria Police and Queen's an police and say is this

763
00:46:15,681 --> 00:46:18,281
Speaker 2: good enough? It's one thing back in the day failing.

764
00:46:18,521 --> 00:46:21,281
Speaker 2: We understand that there was a lot of reasons why

765
00:46:21,601 --> 00:46:24,881
Speaker 2: it didn't go forward then, but today there's just no reason.

766
00:46:25,441 --> 00:46:29,361
Speaker 2: So flu, I really appreciate you sharing your story with

767
00:46:29,441 --> 00:46:32,921
Speaker 2: us today. And what message would you give to anybody

768
00:46:32,921 --> 00:46:35,881
Speaker 2: else who's in your position that.

769
00:46:35,881 --> 00:46:39,801
Speaker 1: I understand it's a difficult thing to talk about. You

770
00:46:39,841 --> 00:46:46,641
Speaker 1: don't want to be that person, but you know, having

771
00:46:47,281 --> 00:46:49,521
Speaker 1: had it buried away for so long has certainly not

772
00:46:49,801 --> 00:46:57,361
Speaker 1: done me any favors, and in trying to heal, it

773
00:46:57,441 --> 00:47:00,841
Speaker 1: needs to be brought to the surface, as painful as

774
00:47:00,841 --> 00:47:04,561
Speaker 1: it probably is. But it's just going to eat continue

775
00:47:04,561 --> 00:47:08,281
Speaker 1: to eat away at you if it's not if it's

776
00:47:08,281 --> 00:47:12,521
Speaker 1: not dealt with, really, if it's not spoken about with somebody,

777
00:47:12,641 --> 00:47:15,721
Speaker 1: at least talk to somebody, you know. If you don't

778
00:47:15,721 --> 00:47:18,841
Speaker 1: have a trusted family, a member or friend, you know,

779
00:47:19,601 --> 00:47:22,960
Speaker 1: you speak to a counselor even if you don't want

780
00:47:23,001 --> 00:47:26,921
Speaker 1: to go to the police. But this has clearly been

781
00:47:26,961 --> 00:47:31,041
Speaker 1: eating at me for all this time, and you know,

782
00:47:31,161 --> 00:47:34,321
Speaker 1: I have deliver with the frustration that I didn't speak

783
00:47:34,361 --> 00:47:36,801
Speaker 1: out sooner because I didn't, you know, essentially know who

784
00:47:36,841 --> 00:47:38,761
Speaker 1: to speak out sooner. And like I said, going back

785
00:47:38,801 --> 00:47:42,081
Speaker 1: to that penny drop moment, that I feel completely stupid

786
00:47:42,121 --> 00:47:44,881
Speaker 1: that expecting that people did do the right thing around

787
00:47:44,881 --> 00:47:48,721
Speaker 1: me at the time, and they didn't, And so I

788
00:47:49,561 --> 00:47:55,440
Speaker 1: don't think I'll get closure. It is an odd term.

789
00:47:55,481 --> 00:47:58,561
Speaker 1: I think sometimes it gets used a lot, but I'm

790
00:47:58,601 --> 00:48:02,161
Speaker 1: hoping to get maybe one day to some sort of peace.

791
00:48:02,321 --> 00:48:07,641
Speaker 1: Whether it's so it's not continuing to destroy me any

792
00:48:07,681 --> 00:48:10,601
Speaker 1: more than what it already has. I wouldn't want that

793
00:48:10,921 --> 00:48:13,401
Speaker 1: to be happening to other people as well, more than

794
00:48:13,401 --> 00:48:14,801
Speaker 1: it already has been.

795
00:48:14,881 --> 00:48:17,961
Speaker 2: And is I agree we use this word closure all

796
00:48:18,001 --> 00:48:21,161
Speaker 2: the time. It's not like closing a book or closing

797
00:48:21,161 --> 00:48:24,081
Speaker 2: a door. But I think it is about people finding

798
00:48:24,121 --> 00:48:27,521
Speaker 2: their voice. And I think your voice is strong, and

799
00:48:27,561 --> 00:48:31,321
Speaker 2: it's truthful, and you're seeking justice and I think that's

800
00:48:31,481 --> 00:48:33,440
Speaker 2: and the community should support that, and the police should

801
00:48:33,441 --> 00:48:35,561
Speaker 2: support that. So Flu, I really want to thank you

802
00:48:35,601 --> 00:48:38,961
Speaker 2: again for sharing it with me and for choosing me.

803
00:48:39,241 --> 00:48:41,561
Speaker 2: Most importantly, you've taught me a lot through this process,

804
00:48:41,601 --> 00:48:44,241
Speaker 2: talking to you over the weeks, and the little bit

805
00:48:44,241 --> 00:48:47,561
Speaker 2: of work I've put into it to locate the perpetrator.

806
00:48:47,921 --> 00:48:49,401
Speaker 2: I hope the police are doing the same thing. They

807
00:48:49,441 --> 00:48:50,841
Speaker 2: go back to that door, knock on his door, so

808
00:48:50,881 --> 00:48:53,841
Speaker 2: one day he has to face it, and you might

809
00:48:53,881 --> 00:48:58,681
Speaker 2: get a moment where he admits his culpability. Whether he

810
00:48:58,761 --> 00:49:01,121
Speaker 2: goes to jail or something, I don't know, but that's

811
00:49:01,121 --> 00:49:03,601
Speaker 2: the really least we can expect that our police will

812
00:49:03,841 --> 00:49:05,721
Speaker 2: take up the casules on you will be half and

813
00:49:05,761 --> 00:49:08,721
Speaker 2: other people as well. So if you're out there, I

814
00:49:08,921 --> 00:49:11,841
Speaker 2: urge you have counseling, work out what you can do,

815
00:49:12,481 --> 00:49:15,241
Speaker 2: and if you can bring a case, call crime Stoppers

816
00:49:15,481 --> 00:49:18,601
Speaker 2: one one hundred, triple three, triple zero. FLU, thank you

817
00:49:18,681 --> 00:49:23,121
Speaker 2: so much for sharing the story today. Thank you, and

818
00:49:23,321 --> 00:49:26,201
Speaker 2: that's Flu. It's an amazing story for mine and you

819
00:49:26,241 --> 00:49:29,241
Speaker 2: can see the isolation she suffered from the very beginning

820
00:49:29,241 --> 00:49:31,761
Speaker 2: where she was made to feel like she was the

821
00:49:31,761 --> 00:49:37,441
Speaker 2: one causing the problem. And you've heard her voice, insistent,

822
00:49:38,321 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 2: almost polite, saying, please give me justice, and there's more

823
00:49:42,481 --> 00:49:45,761
Speaker 2: of you out there. It's not too late. Please get

824
00:49:45,801 --> 00:49:47,641
Speaker 2: in touch with police and if polease won't help you,

825
00:49:48,041 --> 00:49:51,681
Speaker 2: send me an email. Adam Shanner, writer at gmail dot com.

826
00:49:52,201 --> 00:49:54,480
Speaker 2: This has been a real crime with Adam shanned Thank

827
00:49:54,481 --> 00:49:55,081
Speaker 2: you for listening.