1
00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880
Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

2
00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,840
Speaker 1: Detective sy aside of life, the average persons never exposed her.

3
00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:12,040
Speaker 1: I spent thirty four years as a cop. For twenty

4
00:00:12,080 --> 00:00:14,760
Speaker 1: five of those years, I was catching killers. That's what

5
00:00:14,800 --> 00:00:17,280
Speaker 1: I did for a living. I was a homicide detective.

6
00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,040
Speaker 1: I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, I'm taking

7
00:00:21,040 --> 00:00:23,919
Speaker 1: the public into the world in which I operated. The

8
00:00:23,960 --> 00:00:26,600
Speaker 1: guests I talk to each week have amazing stories from

9
00:00:26,600 --> 00:00:29,280
Speaker 1: all sides of the law. The interviews are raw and honest,

10
00:00:29,560 --> 00:00:31,760
Speaker 1: just like the people I talk to. Some of the

11
00:00:31,840 --> 00:00:34,960
Speaker 1: content and language might be confronting. That's because no one

12
00:00:34,960 --> 00:00:38,360
Speaker 1: who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. Join

13
00:00:38,440 --> 00:00:46,640
Speaker 1: me now as I take you into this world. Today,

14
00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:50,000
Speaker 1: I had a conversation with lou Verlouzi, a former us

15
00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,160
Speaker 1: ATF undercover agent. He's a tatooed monster of a man

16
00:00:54,160 --> 00:00:56,280
Speaker 1: who's spent over twenty years at the sharp end of

17
00:00:56,360 --> 00:00:59,640
Speaker 1: law enforcement. He operated in the world where the stakes

18
00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:02,920
Speaker 1: are high. Living a life like that comes at a cost,

19
00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:05,199
Speaker 1: and his career did not end the way he thought

20
00:01:05,200 --> 00:01:08,720
Speaker 1: it would. Today, he took us into the world even

21
00:01:08,760 --> 00:01:12,120
Speaker 1: most cops don't get to see or experience. It was

22
00:01:12,120 --> 00:01:16,240
Speaker 1: a heavy life that he lived infiltrating cartels, biking gangs,

23
00:01:16,360 --> 00:01:19,080
Speaker 1: taking over a thousand guns off the street. He was

24
00:01:19,120 --> 00:01:22,080
Speaker 1: even highed as a hitman to murder a doctor's wife.

25
00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:26,080
Speaker 1: Lou is also the author of a book storefront sting

26
00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:30,040
Speaker 1: atf agent's life undercover. Here is the chat I had

27
00:01:30,040 --> 00:01:35,040
Speaker 1: with him. Lou, you worked undercover for a long time,

28
00:01:35,120 --> 00:01:39,200
Speaker 1: and I know when you're passionate about your job, which

29
00:01:39,480 --> 00:01:43,440
Speaker 1: you clearly clearly were, that you can immerse yourself in there.

30
00:01:43,600 --> 00:01:46,959
Speaker 1: And the question I ask you working undercover as long

31
00:01:47,000 --> 00:01:50,680
Speaker 1: as you did your Lou, but your undercover name was

32
00:01:51,000 --> 00:01:54,680
Speaker 1: Seal from New York? Was your cover story? At any point?

33
00:01:54,720 --> 00:01:57,520
Speaker 1: Did you become more Salve than you were? Lou?

34
00:01:58,480 --> 00:02:03,000
Speaker 2: I would say for almost a decade I was. I

35
00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:05,760
Speaker 2: was more soal than I was Little. It was it

36
00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 2: was a lot easier to be sal Man. Everybody loves

37
00:02:07,920 --> 00:02:12,360
Speaker 2: sal you know he was. He was a dangerous, fun

38
00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:15,920
Speaker 2: guy who was living a hell of a life. You know,

39
00:02:16,120 --> 00:02:19,720
Speaker 2: Little had to come home to, you know, an unhappy

40
00:02:19,760 --> 00:02:24,880
Speaker 2: wife and uh kids and unhappy because I was an asshole.

41
00:02:25,960 --> 00:02:30,480
Speaker 2: But it was just easier for me to stay and

42
00:02:30,600 --> 00:02:34,880
Speaker 2: row and be sal because he didn't have any problems

43
00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:37,079
Speaker 2: man Liu lou Vellowsi had a ton of problems. Sal

44
00:02:37,160 --> 00:02:38,800
Speaker 2: Nundiata was was care free.

45
00:02:38,960 --> 00:02:43,640
Speaker 1: So absolutely that makes sense. And I do understand that.

46
00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,280
Speaker 1: And I think the nature of the work that you do,

47
00:02:46,360 --> 00:02:49,440
Speaker 1: and I experienced it as in law enforcement as well

48
00:02:49,440 --> 00:02:52,280
Speaker 1: as a homicide cop, that you could run away from

49
00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:55,560
Speaker 1: your your private world and in immerse yourself in your

50
00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:58,480
Speaker 1: professional world. And it was easier because you just concentrated

51
00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:00,119
Speaker 1: on what you had to do because.

52
00:02:59,880 --> 00:03:02,800
Speaker 2: You didn't really have to answer to anybody in that world,

53
00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:05,320
Speaker 2: you know, other than your supervisors, which as you were

54
00:03:05,320 --> 00:03:07,960
Speaker 2: doing your job, wasn't a big deal, uh, you know,

55
00:03:08,080 --> 00:03:10,320
Speaker 2: but in the home life you got to answer to

56
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:14,880
Speaker 2: people and the responsibilities and all that. So the more

57
00:03:14,960 --> 00:03:20,160
Speaker 2: you didn't deal with those responsibilities, you know, the worse

58
00:03:20,240 --> 00:03:24,160
Speaker 2: that situation got. So the easier it was to just

59
00:03:24,200 --> 00:03:26,040
Speaker 2: be the other guy. For sure.

60
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: I would imagine, like undercover the type of work you did,

61
00:03:30,400 --> 00:03:34,680
Speaker 1: that it would be easy to or thing that you'd

62
00:03:34,680 --> 00:03:36,640
Speaker 1: have to look out for is not losing yourself in

63
00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:37,600
Speaker 1: the into that world.

64
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's uh, it's a part of you because you know,

65
00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:44,400
Speaker 2: I have so many people who come up to me

66
00:03:44,440 --> 00:03:46,240
Speaker 2: and say, oh, you you know, you know you were

67
00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:49,120
Speaker 2: an actor for twenty years undercovering. But it's not it's

68
00:03:49,160 --> 00:03:51,360
Speaker 2: not really acting. It's just you. You take a part

69
00:03:51,360 --> 00:03:54,680
Speaker 2: of yourself and you and and you just bring it

70
00:03:54,720 --> 00:03:58,280
Speaker 2: to a different place. Right, it's you, but you know,

71
00:03:58,440 --> 00:04:02,440
Speaker 2: you just you just kind of unleash that part of

72
00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,440
Speaker 2: you and you go do these crazy things. So it

73
00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:11,480
Speaker 2: you know, it's it's just you kind of create this

74
00:04:12,080 --> 00:04:15,680
Speaker 2: other version of you, and you know it leads to

75
00:04:17,440 --> 00:04:20,560
Speaker 2: it can lead to great results professionally and you know,

76
00:04:20,720 --> 00:04:22,880
Speaker 2: guns off the street, drugs off the street, bad guys

77
00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:26,960
Speaker 2: in prison, but it can lead to disastrous results on

78
00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,159
Speaker 2: the personal side, and it did with me.

79
00:04:29,440 --> 00:04:32,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, it takes a toll, and we'll talk about that.

80
00:04:32,360 --> 00:04:35,359
Speaker 1: There's there's consequences of the life that you live, and

81
00:04:35,400 --> 00:04:38,120
Speaker 1: that catches up every now and then. We actually had

82
00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:42,920
Speaker 1: Joe Pistoni on the podcast The Real Donnie Brascat, and

83
00:04:43,320 --> 00:04:46,679
Speaker 1: he had an interesting take on things, and full respect

84
00:04:46,680 --> 00:04:49,919
Speaker 1: to him, I thought it was amazing the job that

85
00:04:49,960 --> 00:04:53,400
Speaker 1: he did infiltrating the mafia. But he made the point

86
00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:55,560
Speaker 1: that because I asked him that, because he was very

87
00:04:55,560 --> 00:05:00,640
Speaker 1: long term in that role. That how did you uh,

88
00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,480
Speaker 1: let's say the moral compass, like did you? He said?

89
00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:06,279
Speaker 1: The man? I think the advice he gave was you

90
00:05:06,279 --> 00:05:08,720
Speaker 1: always had to remember that you're the good guy and

91
00:05:08,760 --> 00:05:11,320
Speaker 1: not get lost in that world. Is that another trap?

92
00:05:11,400 --> 00:05:15,120
Speaker 1: Four people that go in deep undercover understand what you're wrong?

93
00:05:16,839 --> 00:05:19,080
Speaker 2: It absolutely is. And you know, Joe, Joe did a

94
00:05:19,080 --> 00:05:22,520
Speaker 2: great job. I've I know Joe, I've done speaking engagements

95
00:05:22,560 --> 00:05:25,840
Speaker 2: with him. But uh, you know, I think Joe that

96
00:05:26,279 --> 00:05:29,800
Speaker 2: case was Joe's big case, and he got out after

97
00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:32,600
Speaker 2: that basically, so you know, I want to say he

98
00:05:32,920 --> 00:05:35,680
Speaker 2: was undercover three or four years and the smart thing

99
00:05:35,720 --> 00:05:37,719
Speaker 2: to do, the smart thing to do is to get

100
00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 2: out like a dummy. I never I didn't get out.

101
00:05:42,360 --> 00:05:45,760
Speaker 2: I did it for almost twenty years straight. Yeah, and

102
00:05:45,960 --> 00:05:50,160
Speaker 2: uh yeah, it's uh, you know, there's two ways to

103
00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,720
Speaker 2: look at it, right, you know, if you do it

104
00:05:52,760 --> 00:05:55,520
Speaker 2: for five or six years and get out, those are

105
00:05:55,560 --> 00:05:58,600
Speaker 2: the smart ones. But uh, but but the other side

106
00:05:58,640 --> 00:06:00,880
Speaker 2: of that is after five or six years, man, you're

107
00:06:00,920 --> 00:06:03,640
Speaker 2: just hitting your stride. Right, five or six years now

108
00:06:03,640 --> 00:06:05,440
Speaker 2: you know what to do and what not to do.

109
00:06:06,040 --> 00:06:07,919
Speaker 2: And that's how I felt I was like, man, I

110
00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,000
Speaker 2: just got good at this. I want to keep going,

111
00:06:11,360 --> 00:06:13,200
Speaker 2: and so I just never stopped.

112
00:06:13,320 --> 00:06:16,880
Speaker 1: You know, I understand that because in law enforcement, you've

113
00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,040
Speaker 1: got to evolve and you become comfortable in what you're doing.

114
00:06:20,080 --> 00:06:22,400
Speaker 1: And I would imagine each time you did a job

115
00:06:22,520 --> 00:06:26,200
Speaker 1: or did a sting, that you're learning something you might

116
00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:27,920
Speaker 1: have made a mistake, and you think, Okay, I'm going

117
00:06:27,960 --> 00:06:29,640
Speaker 1: to fix this one up, or I know the path

118
00:06:29,720 --> 00:06:32,640
Speaker 1: and you get you would get very comfortable in that

119
00:06:32,920 --> 00:06:35,040
Speaker 1: chaos that the world that you're operating in.

120
00:06:35,760 --> 00:06:38,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, Gary, you know, like anything else, you know, like

121
00:06:38,320 --> 00:06:40,800
Speaker 2: like all the homicide detectives I knew, you know, and

122
00:06:40,839 --> 00:06:43,559
Speaker 2: all the narc guys men and women that I knew.

123
00:06:44,640 --> 00:06:48,240
Speaker 2: You know, five or six years goes by, and you've

124
00:06:48,279 --> 00:06:51,200
Speaker 2: made You've made your mistakes, right, You've been corrected, You've

125
00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:56,880
Speaker 2: made your mistakes, and then you know what to do,

126
00:06:57,320 --> 00:06:59,800
Speaker 2: you know what not to do, how to carry yourself,

127
00:07:00,400 --> 00:07:03,760
Speaker 2: and you just you get better and better. You never

128
00:07:03,839 --> 00:07:07,760
Speaker 2: stop learning. And that's how I felt about undercover work,

129
00:07:08,000 --> 00:07:10,640
Speaker 2: and so I just never I didn't want to start, man,

130
00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:14,360
Speaker 2: you know, I I came to a place where I

131
00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:19,560
Speaker 2: was more comfortable in my undercover role than I was

132
00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:21,920
Speaker 2: at a bar with my friends.

133
00:07:21,960 --> 00:07:26,000
Speaker 1: Man, you know, I look, I'm sitting here looking at you,

134
00:07:26,280 --> 00:07:28,560
Speaker 1: and I understand that role Like you dropped me into

135
00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:32,239
Speaker 1: a homicide, saying that was easy for me socialize and

136
00:07:32,680 --> 00:07:34,440
Speaker 1: be the family man and all that. That can be

137
00:07:34,440 --> 00:07:37,520
Speaker 1: a little bit a little bit harder. So and I

138
00:07:37,920 --> 00:07:41,560
Speaker 1: say this, and what, Yeah, I'm fascinated by the work

139
00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:44,360
Speaker 1: that you guys do. It really is a mercive. You've

140
00:07:44,360 --> 00:07:46,520
Speaker 1: got to get in there and you can't make a mistake.

141
00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:49,280
Speaker 1: And you likened it to acting. I think someone made

142
00:07:49,320 --> 00:07:52,520
Speaker 1: a comment because we've had some CIA dudes on and

143
00:07:52,560 --> 00:07:56,040
Speaker 1: some even the French spy and basically talking about when

144
00:07:56,040 --> 00:07:58,920
Speaker 1: you're playing a role in acting, if you stuff up,

145
00:07:59,120 --> 00:08:02,400
Speaker 1: well yeah, okay, let's do that take again. But you

146
00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,160
Speaker 1: can't afford to do that working in law enforcement undercover.

147
00:08:06,360 --> 00:08:10,920
Speaker 2: No if. And again I always say I never really

148
00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:16,800
Speaker 2: considered it acting because Salmon'siata was just kind of who

149
00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,000
Speaker 2: I was, part of my personality that I just took

150
00:08:20,040 --> 00:08:25,400
Speaker 2: to another level. But as far as making mistakes and

151
00:08:25,480 --> 00:08:28,160
Speaker 2: you know, saying the wrong thing or doing the wrong thing,

152
00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:34,480
Speaker 2: the consequences could be dire, you know, and oftentimes they are,

153
00:08:34,880 --> 00:08:37,720
Speaker 2: and you know, unfortunately that's how we you know, we

154
00:08:37,840 --> 00:08:40,320
Speaker 2: losch some great people because of mistakes.

155
00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:43,920
Speaker 1: And it's not just you making the mistake. The more

156
00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:47,400
Speaker 1: people that know about who you're what role you're doing,

157
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,240
Speaker 1: you've got people that you're not even controlling that potentially

158
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:53,680
Speaker 1: can make a mistake that can bring you undone. So

159
00:08:54,280 --> 00:08:57,720
Speaker 1: I would imagine the twenty years that you almost became

160
00:08:57,760 --> 00:09:00,320
Speaker 1: addicted to the adrenaline of it, the excitement of it.

161
00:09:00,960 --> 00:09:04,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, without a doubt, I did an undercover deal my

162
00:09:04,559 --> 00:09:07,800
Speaker 2: first day on the job. You know, I was with

163
00:09:07,920 --> 00:09:12,920
Speaker 2: two federal agencies over here before I got on with ATF,

164
00:09:13,160 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 2: and you know, I I wanted to work undercover. The

165
00:09:17,800 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 2: other agencies I was with I didn't have that opportunity.

166
00:09:22,160 --> 00:09:24,920
Speaker 2: So as soon as I got over to ATF, they

167
00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:27,320
Speaker 2: put me with this crazy guy who was my partner,

168
00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:31,320
Speaker 2: and my first day, I hadn't even been to the

169
00:09:31,320 --> 00:09:35,199
Speaker 2: ATF academy yet, and I told him I want to

170
00:09:35,200 --> 00:09:37,400
Speaker 2: work undercover, and he goes, you want to work undercover, Okay,

171
00:09:37,400 --> 00:09:40,640
Speaker 2: you're going to do a deal today. So I ended

172
00:09:40,679 --> 00:09:46,160
Speaker 2: up that day. He had an informant who introduced me

173
00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:50,760
Speaker 2: to a gang banger, big huge guy who wanted to

174
00:09:50,800 --> 00:09:53,400
Speaker 2: sell a gun for two hundred and fifty bucks. He

175
00:09:53,480 --> 00:09:55,560
Speaker 2: was a convicted felon. He was a member of a gang.

176
00:09:56,800 --> 00:09:58,880
Speaker 2: So you know, I got wired up and all that

177
00:09:58,960 --> 00:10:02,440
Speaker 2: and got in a brain undercover car and went and

178
00:10:02,440 --> 00:10:05,120
Speaker 2: did the deal at a fast food restaurant at lunchtime.

179
00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:10,800
Speaker 2: And uh, I walk in. What's the informant? And we

180
00:10:10,840 --> 00:10:12,880
Speaker 2: meet the bad guy? And I'm looking up at this guy,

181
00:10:13,559 --> 00:10:16,760
Speaker 2: and uh the informant makes the introduction. He runs out

182
00:10:16,760 --> 00:10:20,880
Speaker 2: the door, and I'm like, it's supposed to happen, right,

183
00:10:21,480 --> 00:10:24,920
Speaker 2: So this guy tells me to hey. He goes, hey,

184
00:10:24,960 --> 00:10:27,640
Speaker 2: follow me into the bathroom. And you know, it's a

185
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,160
Speaker 2: bathroom at lunchtime of a burger joint, right, there's a

186
00:10:31,280 --> 00:10:34,480
Speaker 2: there's a sink, and there's a urinal, and there's a commode.

187
00:10:35,320 --> 00:10:39,880
Speaker 2: So he walks into the comode with the toilet and

188
00:10:40,040 --> 00:10:42,719
Speaker 2: opens the you know, the door, and says, come on in.

189
00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:45,160
Speaker 2: So I said, I guess this is how it works.

190
00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:48,360
Speaker 2: I follow him in and I go in and I'm

191
00:10:48,400 --> 00:10:51,480
Speaker 2: like straddling the toilet and he comes behind me and

192
00:10:51,520 --> 00:10:53,960
Speaker 2: he shuts the door and latches it. So we're we're

193
00:10:54,000 --> 00:10:57,760
Speaker 2: face to face right here, pretty vulnerable and yeah, and

194
00:10:58,200 --> 00:11:00,560
Speaker 2: so I'm looking at him and I'm thinking, and wow,

195
00:11:01,320 --> 00:11:03,440
Speaker 2: you know, this is my dream, this is what I

196
00:11:03,440 --> 00:11:06,080
Speaker 2: want to do. It's my first day, and it seems

197
00:11:06,120 --> 00:11:09,880
Speaker 2: like I've already made some bad decisions because my options

198
00:11:09,920 --> 00:11:14,599
Speaker 2: are really limited right now. So, you know, he was

199
00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:16,160
Speaker 2: there to sell the gun. You know, I knew a

200
00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:17,960
Speaker 2: gun was going to come out. It was a gun deal.

201
00:11:18,360 --> 00:11:20,520
Speaker 2: And he reached in his waistband, and you know, all

202
00:11:20,559 --> 00:11:22,160
Speaker 2: I'm thinking is how am I going to get this

203
00:11:22,200 --> 00:11:25,400
Speaker 2: guy's head in this toilet if it goes bad? You know,

204
00:11:25,480 --> 00:11:28,160
Speaker 2: before he could get me. And but he wanted to

205
00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,880
Speaker 2: sell the gun. My partner had given me three hundred bucks.

206
00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:34,080
Speaker 2: He wanted two fifty for it. I just gave him

207
00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,200
Speaker 2: three three hundred a game a fifty dollars tip. I

208
00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,000
Speaker 2: just wanted to get the gun and get out of there.

209
00:11:38,040 --> 00:11:41,000
Speaker 2: And so he gives me the gun. I give him

210
00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,280
Speaker 2: the I give him the money, and we're walking out

211
00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,959
Speaker 2: of the bathroom and I'm like, you know, going through

212
00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:49,480
Speaker 2: my mind, I'm like, you know, are we supposed to

213
00:11:49,520 --> 00:11:51,600
Speaker 2: sit down and break bread together, have a meal?

214
00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:51,800
Speaker 1: You know?

215
00:11:51,800 --> 00:11:53,800
Speaker 2: How does this work? And I was like, you know what,

216
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,200
Speaker 2: I just I ran out the door, just like the

217
00:11:56,240 --> 00:12:00,320
Speaker 2: informant did with the gun. And when I got in

218
00:12:00,320 --> 00:12:05,280
Speaker 2: the car, in the undercover car and let the team know,

219
00:12:05,400 --> 00:12:07,600
Speaker 2: everything was good and I'll meet him back at the

220
00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:10,360
Speaker 2: you know, at the meeting location. I remember it like

221
00:12:10,400 --> 00:12:14,160
Speaker 2: it was yesterday. I had that little stolen gun. It

222
00:12:14,200 --> 00:12:18,840
Speaker 2: was a little twenty five caliber pistol, and I remember

223
00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:20,760
Speaker 2: looking at it. I had put it right in the

224
00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:25,439
Speaker 2: console and that was my hide right there, that feeling,

225
00:12:25,880 --> 00:12:30,080
Speaker 2: greatest feeling I had ever had. I just took that

226
00:12:30,120 --> 00:12:32,560
Speaker 2: gun off the streets, right that gun that you know,

227
00:12:32,600 --> 00:12:34,440
Speaker 2: maybe that gun had killed a whole bunch of people,

228
00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:36,319
Speaker 2: maybe it was gonna kill a whole bunch of people

229
00:12:36,320 --> 00:12:38,840
Speaker 2: in the future. But I got it out of his hands.

230
00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:42,160
Speaker 2: I took it off the streets, and that began my

231
00:12:42,280 --> 00:12:46,200
Speaker 2: addiction right there, and I never looked back for the

232
00:12:46,240 --> 00:12:47,240
Speaker 2: next twenty years.

233
00:12:47,440 --> 00:12:51,319
Speaker 1: I can understand how that, and one of my frustrations

234
00:12:51,400 --> 00:12:54,360
Speaker 1: is a homicide detected EVE unless you're chasing serial killers

235
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:56,760
Speaker 1: or gangland killings, when you can put a stop to it,

236
00:12:57,400 --> 00:13:00,560
Speaker 1: the crimes happened and we're not preventing them. So it's reactive.

237
00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,319
Speaker 1: This type of stuff you do, getting the guns off

238
00:13:03,600 --> 00:13:05,880
Speaker 1: off the street. I can understand why you get a

239
00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,439
Speaker 1: high with that because a gun. Yeah, you're being in

240
00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,720
Speaker 1: law enforcement long enough and you've been ran long enough

241
00:13:10,720 --> 00:13:12,959
Speaker 1: to know the damage one gun can do. So to

242
00:13:13,040 --> 00:13:14,840
Speaker 1: get that off the straight from a bad guy, it

243
00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:17,120
Speaker 1: has to give you a bit of a lift and

244
00:13:17,480 --> 00:13:19,319
Speaker 1: make you feel like you're doing some good work.

245
00:13:19,840 --> 00:13:22,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure. You know, I half my career was

246
00:13:22,559 --> 00:13:25,719
Speaker 2: buying drugs, and you know there was For me, there

247
00:13:25,760 --> 00:13:28,360
Speaker 2: was zero satisfaction in buying drugs. You know, if I

248
00:13:28,400 --> 00:13:30,440
Speaker 2: did a deal with some cartel guys and you know

249
00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:34,640
Speaker 2: I bought twenty kilos, you're not even You're not even

250
00:13:34,760 --> 00:13:37,880
Speaker 2: sticking your finger in a hole in the dam right,

251
00:13:38,280 --> 00:13:40,600
Speaker 2: You're not putting a damn in anything. For me, it

252
00:13:40,679 --> 00:13:44,840
Speaker 2: was very very small satisfaction. You know, you're gonna get

253
00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,800
Speaker 2: some low level cartel guys and lock them up, that's

254
00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:50,840
Speaker 2: about it. But just buying one gun, you know, from

255
00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:56,200
Speaker 2: one convicted felon, you're actually making a difference in whatever

256
00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:58,719
Speaker 2: community you're working in. Man, you're taking that gun off

257
00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,080
Speaker 2: the street. You know, my agency that gun would after

258
00:14:02,120 --> 00:14:05,679
Speaker 2: the case is adjudicated, that gun gets destroyed, melted, it'll

259
00:14:05,679 --> 00:14:09,160
Speaker 2: never be back on the street. And that gives you

260
00:14:10,600 --> 00:14:13,280
Speaker 2: some fulfillment, a feeling that, man, you know, I just

261
00:14:13,320 --> 00:14:15,319
Speaker 2: made a little bit of a difference. Maybe I saved

262
00:14:15,320 --> 00:14:17,640
Speaker 2: the kid's life, maybe I saved the cops life.

263
00:14:18,000 --> 00:14:21,400
Speaker 1: Now I understand that, certainly understand that. But life could

264
00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:22,960
Speaker 1: have been a lot different for you. You could have

265
00:14:23,000 --> 00:14:26,520
Speaker 1: been a quiet, little reserved banker because in your your

266
00:14:26,720 --> 00:14:30,160
Speaker 1: working career, start out working in the bank. Yeah, and

267
00:14:30,600 --> 00:14:33,200
Speaker 1: I'm looking at I'm looking at you now, and I'm

268
00:14:33,240 --> 00:14:36,760
Speaker 1: not saying the classic image of a banker, but that's

269
00:14:36,800 --> 00:14:37,960
Speaker 1: where your path was heading.

270
00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:41,280
Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, I went to college over here and

271
00:14:41,360 --> 00:14:46,080
Speaker 2: got a useless degree in economics and business, and you know,

272
00:14:46,440 --> 00:14:50,840
Speaker 2: I barely made it through college. And I was not

273
00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,200
Speaker 2: I wasn't a hot commodity. No one was breaking down

274
00:14:54,200 --> 00:14:57,200
Speaker 2: my doors to hire me on Wall Street, and so

275
00:14:57,520 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 2: you know, I was able to get a job just

276
00:14:59,440 --> 00:15:02,960
Speaker 2: out of the new newspaper at a bank making eight dollars,

277
00:15:03,160 --> 00:15:06,880
Speaker 2: eight American dollars an hour. And I was just sitting

278
00:15:06,920 --> 00:15:11,040
Speaker 2: in a room with no windows, taking computer print print

279
00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:14,200
Speaker 2: outs and putting them in, filing them in file cabinets,

280
00:15:14,680 --> 00:15:19,520
Speaker 2: and I just thought to myself, you know, I can't

281
00:15:19,560 --> 00:15:23,480
Speaker 2: go through life with the job like this. There's no way,

282
00:15:23,840 --> 00:15:25,680
Speaker 2: you know. So I knew there was something else for

283
00:15:25,800 --> 00:15:26,360
Speaker 2: me out there.

284
00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:28,720
Speaker 1: Yeah, I understand. It would be a slighter death if

285
00:15:28,760 --> 00:15:31,600
Speaker 1: you if you're not happier, it's not something rewarding. And

286
00:15:31,720 --> 00:15:33,600
Speaker 1: that's what you're doing, just to get the pipe check

287
00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:37,920
Speaker 1: each each week. What what drew you? The law enforcement

288
00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:38,920
Speaker 1: you don't carry?

289
00:15:38,920 --> 00:15:42,200
Speaker 2: It was never on my radar. I I had a

290
00:15:42,200 --> 00:15:45,720
Speaker 2: friend who I had played played ball with in college,

291
00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,280
Speaker 2: and he just happened to call me one day and

292
00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:51,880
Speaker 2: I said, I was miserable. You know, my life was.

293
00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:55,560
Speaker 2: I was young and I had no direction. I was miserable.

294
00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,280
Speaker 2: He said, man, he goes once you come over, come

295
00:15:58,280 --> 00:16:02,240
Speaker 2: over after work and and let's have a beer, hang out.

296
00:16:02,680 --> 00:16:04,680
Speaker 2: He said, you know, I'm staying at my brother's place

297
00:16:04,720 --> 00:16:08,400
Speaker 2: in the Bronx. So after work, I drove down to

298
00:16:08,520 --> 00:16:11,920
Speaker 2: the Bronx and he was sitting out on the stoop

299
00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:14,200
Speaker 2: out on the front steps. So I sat on a

300
00:16:14,320 --> 00:16:18,720
Speaker 2: stoopid him and we're having a beer and a Corvette

301
00:16:18,720 --> 00:16:22,480
Speaker 2: pulls up right, which is pretty rare in the Bronx

302
00:16:22,640 --> 00:16:25,520
Speaker 2: to see a Corvette and this guy gets out of

303
00:16:25,560 --> 00:16:27,000
Speaker 2: the car and he's got you know, this is a

304
00:16:27,680 --> 00:16:30,440
Speaker 2: this is way back when in the like Miami Vice

305
00:16:30,520 --> 00:16:33,240
Speaker 2: days and all. And you know, he's got the long

306
00:16:33,320 --> 00:16:36,840
Speaker 2: hair flowing flowing back, and his shirt's open and I

307
00:16:36,840 --> 00:16:39,120
Speaker 2: can see he's got a he's got a Baretta ninety

308
00:16:39,160 --> 00:16:43,560
Speaker 2: two f in his waistband. And I'm looking at this guy,

309
00:16:43,680 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 2: going wow, No, that's that's a cool guy right there,

310
00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:48,480
Speaker 2: you know. And that was his brother. I had never

311
00:16:48,480 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 2: met him before. He just happened to be undercover Drug

312
00:16:54,560 --> 00:16:58,720
Speaker 2: Enforcement Administration agent. He was an undercovered DEE agent and

313
00:16:59,080 --> 00:17:02,880
Speaker 2: he had recently gotten back from South America and he

314
00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:06,160
Speaker 2: was working undercover. And we went inside and we had

315
00:17:06,200 --> 00:17:09,920
Speaker 2: a few beers at the table, and for about thirty minutes,

316
00:17:10,960 --> 00:17:13,439
Speaker 2: I asked him questions about his job, and you know,

317
00:17:13,480 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 2: he told me what he could tell me. And it

318
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,520
Speaker 2: was right then in that conversation that the skies opened

319
00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:23,720
Speaker 2: up and I knew I wanted to be an undercover agent.

320
00:17:25,080 --> 00:17:28,440
Speaker 1: I can understand that that time. And you reference Miami Vice.

321
00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 1: I think we had a lot of cops over here

322
00:17:30,720 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: that we're watching that show, and there was a lot

323
00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:36,639
Speaker 1: of undercovered dudes getting around looking very cool, and they

324
00:17:36,680 --> 00:17:39,440
Speaker 1: had had the swagger about them, so I can understand

325
00:17:39,440 --> 00:17:43,200
Speaker 1: the attraction. That was a cool scene that they seemed

326
00:17:43,240 --> 00:17:47,760
Speaker 1: to inhabit. So law enforcement in the US is different

327
00:17:47,800 --> 00:17:50,480
Speaker 1: in Australia. Here we've got state police and we've got

328
00:17:50,560 --> 00:17:54,399
Speaker 1: federal police. So we've got four or five or six

329
00:17:54,480 --> 00:17:59,720
Speaker 1: law enforcement agencies roughly covering the country. But in the

330
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,720
Speaker 1: marriag like you ended up and you're undercover work was

331
00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:07,000
Speaker 1: in the ATF and that's a federal agency. You that

332
00:18:07,160 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: wasn't your direct path into law enforcement. You joined other

333
00:18:10,080 --> 00:18:11,960
Speaker 1: agencies before you got to the a TF. Do you

334
00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:13,879
Speaker 1: want to just talk us through that and explain what

335
00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:15,640
Speaker 1: the roles are in those agencies.

336
00:18:15,880 --> 00:18:19,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I wanted to work undercover. But as you know,

337
00:18:20,640 --> 00:18:23,280
Speaker 2: like like if if you want to be a homicide detective,

338
00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,959
Speaker 2: you don't just become a homicide detective, right, you have

339
00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:29,119
Speaker 2: to pay your dues, right, And it's years and years,

340
00:18:29,119 --> 00:18:32,200
Speaker 2: you know, after that conversation I told you about, it

341
00:18:32,640 --> 00:18:35,600
Speaker 2: was eight years until I actually did an undercovery Okay,

342
00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:38,600
Speaker 2: So what I did was, you know, I didn't want

343
00:18:38,640 --> 00:18:42,040
Speaker 2: to be a uniform police officer. I didn't want to

344
00:18:42,040 --> 00:18:45,720
Speaker 2: be writing traffic tickets, pulling people over. I wanted to

345
00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:49,080
Speaker 2: be an undercover agent. So I didn't put in with

346
00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,840
Speaker 2: the city police or the state police. I put in

347
00:18:52,880 --> 00:18:55,400
Speaker 2: with every federal every week on them, the three letter

348
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:58,600
Speaker 2: the alphabet agencies, all the three letter agencies. I put

349
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,760
Speaker 2: in with every single one we had ice, you know,

350
00:19:02,840 --> 00:19:06,120
Speaker 2: at f d E, A FBI, all of them over here, right.

351
00:19:06,520 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 2: I really wasn't very qualified, to be honest with you.

352
00:19:09,960 --> 00:19:13,800
Speaker 2: I had no experience, no law enforcement experience. I didn't

353
00:19:13,800 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 2: have very good grades in school. So I put in

354
00:19:19,520 --> 00:19:23,919
Speaker 2: and I actually, when you put in over here for

355
00:19:23,960 --> 00:19:28,480
Speaker 2: the FEDS, you take a test, an examination, and the

356
00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,280
Speaker 2: only advantage I have. Usually most of the guys taking

357
00:19:31,359 --> 00:19:36,960
Speaker 2: this examination are our police officers who want to become FEDS.

358
00:19:37,200 --> 00:19:39,399
Speaker 2: They want to move up to be a FED, so

359
00:19:39,840 --> 00:19:43,520
Speaker 2: they've been removed from the school system, usually for you know,

360
00:19:43,640 --> 00:19:46,439
Speaker 2: seven or eight years. They were gritty cops. By this time.

361
00:19:46,840 --> 00:19:49,160
Speaker 2: I was fresh out of school, so I was still

362
00:19:49,200 --> 00:19:52,600
Speaker 2: in test taking mode. And I just happened to score

363
00:19:52,800 --> 00:19:55,800
Speaker 2: really high on the test, which is the only reason

364
00:19:56,000 --> 00:19:58,800
Speaker 2: I got a phone call. And I got a phone

365
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 2: call from Immigration which is it's no one over here

366
00:20:02,840 --> 00:20:06,520
Speaker 2: as ICE now immigration and Customs Enforcement, that's not what

367
00:20:06,600 --> 00:20:09,679
Speaker 2: it was called back then. But so it was for

368
00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,560
Speaker 2: a job to be a special agent with the United

369
00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:16,720
Speaker 2: States Immigration and Naturalization Service. So I was in New York,

370
00:20:17,160 --> 00:20:19,000
Speaker 2: the job was in LA. They flew me out to

371
00:20:19,160 --> 00:20:23,800
Speaker 2: LA for the interview. And again, you know, I think

372
00:20:23,840 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: I did really good in the interview, only because I

373
00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:31,119
Speaker 2: didn't know what the hell I was doing. So sometimes

374
00:20:31,119 --> 00:20:32,520
Speaker 2: that's when you do your best, right.

375
00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:35,640
Speaker 1: When you're ignorance helped I help.

376
00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:38,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, I went in there and I was

377
00:20:38,680 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 2: just myself, and I was and I was real honest,

378
00:20:41,240 --> 00:20:44,359
Speaker 2: and I wasn't expecting to get hired or expecting much.

379
00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:48,399
Speaker 2: And when I got back from LA, I didn't even

380
00:20:48,440 --> 00:20:51,560
Speaker 2: have a suit. My uh my dad had to help

381
00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:53,439
Speaker 2: me buy a buy a suit for the interview, and

382
00:20:53,480 --> 00:20:55,399
Speaker 2: I tucked my long hair into the back of my

383
00:20:55,800 --> 00:21:00,479
Speaker 2: jacket and went in and uh, within a week of interview,

384
00:21:00,480 --> 00:21:02,960
Speaker 2: I got a call say, hey, man, listen. You know,

385
00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:06,919
Speaker 2: pending your successful background investigation, we're going to offer you

386
00:21:06,960 --> 00:21:09,679
Speaker 2: a job as a special agent in Los Angeles. So,

387
00:21:11,800 --> 00:21:13,840
Speaker 2: you know, I passed the background and I went in

388
00:21:14,200 --> 00:21:17,320
Speaker 2: I went down to the academy. I had never never

389
00:21:18,400 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 2: seen a gun, never held a gun. You know, again,

390
00:21:21,960 --> 00:21:25,600
Speaker 2: I was as green as you could be. I was unqualified.

391
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:29,240
Speaker 2: I was green, but I was hungry man. You know,

392
00:21:29,480 --> 00:21:33,119
Speaker 2: I was hungry man. I was going to realize my dream.

393
00:21:33,400 --> 00:21:36,920
Speaker 2: So I worked super hard. It was a long heart academy.

394
00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:38,879
Speaker 2: I made it through, and the next thing I knew,

395
00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:41,720
Speaker 2: I was on the streets of Los Angeles and it

396
00:21:41,840 --> 00:21:45,920
Speaker 2: was the greatest time in America to be a cop,

397
00:21:46,040 --> 00:21:49,560
Speaker 2: to be in law enforcement, was in the early nineties.

398
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,520
Speaker 2: I was in LA from nineteen ninety one to nineteen

399
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: ninety six, and you know it was when LA. This

400
00:21:59,000 --> 00:22:01,320
Speaker 2: was during the La Ryan I don't know if you guys.

401
00:22:02,240 --> 00:22:05,080
Speaker 1: There definitely heard the bad and watch it from over

402
00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:06,480
Speaker 1: he with a bank kyok.

403
00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,320
Speaker 2: It was really had that invasion. It was the being

404
00:22:09,359 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: of the invasion of all the Central American gangs coming

405
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,159
Speaker 2: into America, and LA was like the epicenter. So you know,

406
00:22:17,240 --> 00:22:20,600
Speaker 2: you had the MS thirteen, you know, coming in from

407
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:27,800
Speaker 2: Al Salvador on, all of the Mexican gangs and the cartels, Guatemalan,

408
00:22:27,920 --> 00:22:33,000
Speaker 2: Honduran gangs coming up, and you know the gangs that

409
00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,400
Speaker 2: were already, you know, our homegrown gangs in Los Angeles

410
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:39,120
Speaker 2: in America. They didn't know what to do with this, right,

411
00:22:39,920 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 2: you know, they they had never seen this kind of violence.

412
00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,680
Speaker 2: You know, they were doing drive buys in some shootings,

413
00:22:46,480 --> 00:22:49,720
Speaker 2: these Central American gangs, they were cutting people's heads off,

414
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,760
Speaker 2: they were cutting body parts off, private parts and shoving

415
00:22:53,800 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: them in people's mouth to send a message. I mean,

416
00:22:56,920 --> 00:23:00,760
Speaker 2: it was next level gang warfare. And I would I

417
00:23:00,920 --> 00:23:04,280
Speaker 2: was lucky enough to be on the streets during that

418
00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:09,119
Speaker 2: and to battle that, and I really that's where I

419
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 2: learned how to be a cop. From the Los Angeles

420
00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:16,080
Speaker 2: Police Department detectives that I got to work with, they

421
00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:23,200
Speaker 2: taught me how to be a cop. So it was incredible, man,

422
00:23:23,960 --> 00:23:26,520
Speaker 2: it was a great learning experience for me. It's where

423
00:23:26,560 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 2: I learned kind of how to carry myself. And I'll

424
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,920
Speaker 2: just tell you what I did. I think that made

425
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: a difference. So the way they did it back then

426
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,720
Speaker 2: was your first six months on the job, they put

427
00:23:38,760 --> 00:23:41,920
Speaker 2: you in La County Jail. So every day I went

428
00:23:41,960 --> 00:23:47,240
Speaker 2: to La County Jail to interview on the release line

429
00:23:47,720 --> 00:23:51,320
Speaker 2: everyone coming, every foreign born inmate that was coming out

430
00:23:51,320 --> 00:23:55,280
Speaker 2: of La County jail to determine their alienage and their deportability,

431
00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: all right, and if you determined they were deportable, you

432
00:23:59,400 --> 00:24:02,800
Speaker 2: were you know, right up detainers and fill everything out

433
00:24:02,840 --> 00:24:05,120
Speaker 2: and hand the paperwork in and they would not get released.

434
00:24:05,520 --> 00:24:09,320
Speaker 2: They would go, you know, into federal custody. But what

435
00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: I would do was, you know, I was fascinated by

436
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:17,560
Speaker 2: these guys. You know, here I am talking to this

437
00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 2: guy who has been cutting people's heads off, right, some

438
00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 2: guy from El Salvador, who grew up in some dirt

439
00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: hut in San Salvador, who ended up somehow on the

440
00:24:30,760 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: streets of La as an enforcer, you know, for MS

441
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:41,560
Speaker 2: thirteen and he's out there killing, you know, selling drugs,

442
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:47,360
Speaker 2: chopping people's heads off. And I would talk to these

443
00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:52,240
Speaker 2: guys would I was genuinely interested in their story, you know, like,

444
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:55,400
Speaker 2: how did how did you go from being a little kid,

445
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:58,639
Speaker 2: you know, in these very simple beginnings to where you

446
00:24:58,720 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 2: are and what you're doing. And it's funny, even hardened

447
00:25:01,600 --> 00:25:06,160
Speaker 2: criminals they'll tell their story, and you know, I would

448
00:25:06,200 --> 00:25:09,639
Speaker 2: pass that information on to our gain units, right, and

449
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,399
Speaker 2: our gain units were like, hey man, you know this rookie,

450
00:25:13,480 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 2: he's going the extra mile. Man. You know, he's passing

451
00:25:16,160 --> 00:25:19,200
Speaker 2: information and he gets it. And I think that kind

452
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:22,040
Speaker 2: of helped me in my career, you know, start getting

453
00:25:22,040 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 2: out as you know, I got known this guy's a

454
00:25:24,600 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 2: worker's go get.

455
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,160
Speaker 1: Well what you've said there, Lou, I understand because if

456
00:25:29,200 --> 00:25:32,040
Speaker 1: you have that inquiry in mind, and dare I say,

457
00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:34,720
Speaker 1: And it's not used all the time, but empathy, that

458
00:25:35,119 --> 00:25:38,440
Speaker 1: understanding the path that brought people to when they're sitting

459
00:25:38,440 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: behind the gates in prison, it can give you a

460
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 1: deeper understanding. It helps you if you can communicate with

461
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:47,920
Speaker 1: them on their level. It helps you all the way

462
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,119
Speaker 1: through your career in law enforcement, being able to have

463
00:25:50,440 --> 00:25:53,080
Speaker 1: a conversation with people, not sit there and judge and

464
00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 1: not just go, well, you're a bad guy. You've got

465
00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,480
Speaker 1: nothing to say that I'm interested in. If you sit

466
00:25:57,560 --> 00:25:59,920
Speaker 1: down and spend time, it does make a difference, doesn't it.

467
00:26:00,800 --> 00:26:03,680
Speaker 2: And that's human nature, right Gary, that's human nature.

468
00:26:03,720 --> 00:26:03,840
Speaker 1: Right.

469
00:26:03,880 --> 00:26:07,080
Speaker 2: Everyone everybody had a mom at some point, right that

470
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:09,880
Speaker 2: that held them as a baby when they came out.

471
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:12,480
Speaker 2: And you know, I wanted to know from these guys,

472
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:15,560
Speaker 2: you know, how man, how did you get here? How

473
00:26:15,600 --> 00:26:17,879
Speaker 2: did it? How did it happen? Tell me, you know.

474
00:26:18,560 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 2: And it turned out that a lot of these guys,

475
00:26:21,320 --> 00:26:23,159
Speaker 2: you know, the real story, which a lot of people

476
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: didn't get into. You know, their families back in Ol

477
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:32,159
Speaker 2: Salvador were being closely watched and if they didn't do

478
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:34,639
Speaker 2: if they didn't carry out their mission and do what

479
00:26:34,680 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 2: they're supposed to do, their families would get killed, right

480
00:26:38,600 --> 00:26:42,760
Speaker 2: the gangs would kill their families. So again, you know,

481
00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:46,119
Speaker 2: you can't make excuses for criminality and you know, for

482
00:26:46,200 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 2: these kind of bad things, but it gives you a

483
00:26:48,880 --> 00:26:52,280
Speaker 2: pretty good understanding. And you know, I would talk to

484
00:26:52,359 --> 00:26:54,760
Speaker 2: them about that. Hey man, tell me. And plus i'd

485
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,679
Speaker 2: be doing these interviews in Spanish, you know, which is

486
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,600
Speaker 2: which was the second language for me, which made it

487
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:05,800
Speaker 2: even harder. And I just I just really found that

488
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,159
Speaker 2: you get so much more information when you when you

489
00:27:10,240 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: treat everyone with respect and with dignity, you know, unless,

490
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,239
Speaker 2: of course they give you a reason not too. But

491
00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,679
Speaker 2: you know, right off the bat, I always treated everyone

492
00:27:19,720 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: with respect, they treated them with dignity, and I found

493
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,440
Speaker 2: that got me a lot farther in law enforcement than

494
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:26,320
Speaker 2: being a tough guy.

495
00:27:26,600 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 1: I think sometimes law enforcement types make the mistake of

496
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: being the hard ass the whole time, and that's not

497
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,159
Speaker 1: often the way you get through what you've what you

498
00:27:36,240 --> 00:27:39,920
Speaker 1: need done. Well, you talk about El Salvador and the

499
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:44,200
Speaker 1: Central American crime groups that come from places like that.

500
00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: We had Rick Prado on the podcast CIAD that worked

501
00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: over there, and you said that your local gangs in

502
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,679
Speaker 1: La these new gangs took it to another level. So

503
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:59,359
Speaker 1: I could imagine from being a cop on the street

504
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,120
Speaker 1: that would have been interesting time. So you went from there?

505
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,359
Speaker 1: Then you ended up in Uh, where where did you

506
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 1: go from there?

507
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 2: So again you know there was there was not going

508
00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:10,760
Speaker 2: to be a place for me, uh to work under car?

509
00:28:10,920 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: You still wanted to be the Miami Voss? Did you

510
00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:16,240
Speaker 1: still you still had that that drive?

511
00:28:16,480 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: And you know it's interesting, Uh with the Miami Vice thing?

512
00:28:20,080 --> 00:28:27,119
Speaker 2: When when? How how you know reality versus television? You know?

513
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,960
Speaker 2: In my mind of course, Uh, I'm thinking under cover work.

514
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:36,200
Speaker 2: I'm gonna be on yachts, I'm going to be driving Lamborghine.

515
00:28:36,520 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: I'm going to be surrounded by supermodels and champagne. And

516
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:45,800
Speaker 2: it could not be any farther from I would. I

517
00:28:45,840 --> 00:28:50,560
Speaker 2: was in trailer parks and the projects, and I was

518
00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:54,239
Speaker 2: driving old shitty, beat up cars, and you know there

519
00:28:54,600 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 2: was never any supermodels. But uh, but anyway from from

520
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:02,720
Speaker 2: you know, we had guys working undercover, but they for

521
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:05,400
Speaker 2: the most part, they were the Hispanic guys you know

522
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:09,000
Speaker 2: going in you know who were do buying fake green

523
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:13,160
Speaker 2: cards and fake documents and all that. So I wanted

524
00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: to get back to the East coast of America, you know,

525
00:29:16,240 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: the West coast never really yeah, I never felt that

526
00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:21,000
Speaker 2: home there.

527
00:29:21,320 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: So I went.

528
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,160
Speaker 2: I jumped over to the US Marshals on the fugue

529
00:29:26,240 --> 00:29:31,280
Speaker 2: on their fugitive squad, and I was only there for

530
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: two years. I was in New York and I was

531
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 2: in Puerto Rico chasing fugitives, which was a blast, right

532
00:29:39,880 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: as well. You know this as a cop, the more

533
00:29:43,240 --> 00:29:45,719
Speaker 2: action and the less paperwork you have to do, the

534
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:50,080
Speaker 2: more fun the job is, right because what they don't

535
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:53,640
Speaker 2: show on TV, right, whether you're a homicide detective or

536
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:59,040
Speaker 2: an undercover officer, is that of the time you're banging

537
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:04,120
Speaker 2: out reports, they don't show that the fugitive investigations and

538
00:30:04,200 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 2: chasing fugitives was eighty percent action and twenty percent report.

539
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: Well, I would imagine the brief is done, you've got

540
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: the evidence, you're just gonna find this this dude.

541
00:30:14,320 --> 00:30:17,880
Speaker 2: You're kicking doors man. So so it was great and uh,

542
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: I was having I was having a good time doing it.

543
00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 2: But again I wanted to work undercover. So uh, an

544
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 2: HF was a small agency over here, and you know,

545
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:34,120
Speaker 2: only maybe twenty twenty four to twenty five hundred agents,

546
00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:36,960
Speaker 2: and they weren't hiring very much in the back in

547
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:40,560
Speaker 2: the nineteen nineties, and finally an opening came up. They

548
00:30:40,600 --> 00:30:44,080
Speaker 2: were hiring one class and they were only hiring people

549
00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,200
Speaker 2: who were already agents from other agencies, so you could

550
00:30:48,280 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 2: jump over. You didn't have to go through the first

551
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:52,840
Speaker 2: part of the academy. There was I think there was

552
00:30:53,280 --> 00:30:55,440
Speaker 2: there was only like twenty four positions open. I put

553
00:30:55,480 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: in and I got it. So after the future kind

554
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,040
Speaker 2: of chasing for about two years, I finally got on

555
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:06,760
Speaker 2: with ATF. I really wanted to go to you know,

556
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: they give you three choices where you can go, so

557
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 2: I put in I wanted the action. I put in

558
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 2: for New York, Miami or Los Angeles because I just

559
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:17,240
Speaker 2: wanted to be in one of our you know, the

560
00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:21,400
Speaker 2: biggest cities with the most action. And uh they sent

561
00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:25,400
Speaker 2: me to Savannah, Georgia and that's the logic of the

562
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,400
Speaker 2: US government. And uh, but it worked out because I

563
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,240
Speaker 2: just happened to get in an office and get partnered

564
00:31:33,360 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: up with this crazy guy who was a brilliant undercover agent,

565
00:31:38,080 --> 00:31:40,120
Speaker 2: and it just set me off on my career and

566
00:31:40,160 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 2: I started working undercover right from the bat.

567
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,800
Speaker 1: Get that right mental in law enforcement, that sets you up,

568
00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,360
Speaker 1: doesn't it. If you've got someone that you can learn from,

569
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:52,400
Speaker 1: someone that's got the smarts, someone's got the yeah, the

570
00:31:52,480 --> 00:31:56,640
Speaker 1: values that you've got, and follow their lead, that makes

571
00:31:56,640 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 1: a big difference, can set you up for your whole

572
00:31:58,520 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 1: whole career getting the right person.

573
00:32:00,760 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no doubt, you know, Like I know, you

574
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,680
Speaker 2: know because I worked with a new a lot of

575
00:32:05,720 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: homicide detectives over here, and you know, every every young

576
00:32:09,240 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: patrolman on the street dreams of being a homicide detective,

577
00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:16,280
Speaker 2: right they want to. That's again, you got to pay

578
00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:19,000
Speaker 2: your dues, You got to prove yourself, move up slowly,

579
00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,120
Speaker 2: and pay your dues. So it was the same to

580
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,400
Speaker 2: be an undercover agent. You didn't just come on and

581
00:32:26,800 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: become an undercover agent, you know you And my goal

582
00:32:30,200 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: was I wanted to do these long term, deeply embedded

583
00:32:35,320 --> 00:32:39,200
Speaker 2: undercover cases where I was traveling all over the country

584
00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:45,520
Speaker 2: and getting in with these organized crime groups. But you know,

585
00:32:45,640 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 2: my partner showed me. He's like, listen, you start small

586
00:32:49,160 --> 00:32:52,800
Speaker 2: and you work your way up. So for years and years,

587
00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:58,080
Speaker 2: I started out, you know, buying one little bag of

588
00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,800
Speaker 2: crack off some you know, eighteen year old gang banger

589
00:33:03,560 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: in the parking lot of the shopping mall. You know,

590
00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: buying a stolen gun off a convicted felon, you know,

591
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,000
Speaker 2: behind the bowling alley, you know those. That's what I

592
00:33:15,040 --> 00:33:17,520
Speaker 2: did for my first couple of years, you know, And

593
00:33:17,560 --> 00:33:20,920
Speaker 2: you slowly build up and work your way into conspiracies

594
00:33:21,000 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: and maybe some small street gangs and doing that kind

595
00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 2: of stuff, you know, And if you prove yourself and

596
00:33:28,920 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: if your name gets out there, you will get the call,

597
00:33:33,000 --> 00:33:36,000
Speaker 2: you know, to start doing these long term, deeply embedded

598
00:33:36,080 --> 00:33:37,800
Speaker 2: undercover operations.

599
00:33:37,960 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 1: It makes saints, the saints learning the try lou What

600
00:33:42,480 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 1: do you reckon the qualities of a good Then it's

601
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:47,480
Speaker 1: hard to generalize because everyone comes in with different skill set,

602
00:33:47,520 --> 00:33:49,800
Speaker 1: But what do you think of the attributes of a

603
00:33:49,840 --> 00:33:51,760
Speaker 1: good undercover officer?

604
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,520
Speaker 2: What I see in common when i'm you know, we

605
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,720
Speaker 2: had an ATF. We had the EUP call the Enhanced

606
00:34:00,760 --> 00:34:03,240
Speaker 2: Undercover Program, and it was just a collection of agents

607
00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:08,360
Speaker 2: from all over the country who specialized and undercoverable. The

608
00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:12,680
Speaker 2: most amazing crew you'll ever see, right, I mean you

609
00:34:12,719 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: see them all in a room. It looked like it

610
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: looked like prison just got out, right, But the characteristics, like,

611
00:34:21,000 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 2: you spend some time with these people, and here's what

612
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:27,120
Speaker 2: you notice first and foremost when you get beyond what

613
00:34:27,520 --> 00:34:32,080
Speaker 2: we looked like, these are some of the smartest people

614
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: you'll ever meet.

615
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: Right.

616
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,800
Speaker 2: You cannot be a dummy. These are really smart, educated people.

617
00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:46,120
Speaker 2: And the probably the main characteristic is the ability to

618
00:34:46,239 --> 00:34:50,160
Speaker 2: think on your feet, the ability to always know what

619
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 2: to say. They're all pistols man with the responses like

620
00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,680
Speaker 2: they're also quick to respond, and they can sell you anything.

621
00:34:57,960 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 2: You got to be a salesman. You have to be

622
00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:03,879
Speaker 2: a natural salesman. You know, if you're you look at

623
00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: that real slimy car salesman who's very successful, who's probably

624
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:12,879
Speaker 2: selling a car that he knows isn't the right car

625
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,040
Speaker 2: for that person, but he'll say whatever he has to

626
00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,839
Speaker 2: say to make that deal. You can make. You can

627
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:21,399
Speaker 2: make that person into an undercover. Those are the kind

628
00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 2: of characteristics it's not. It's not you know, bravery. To me,

629
00:35:26,200 --> 00:35:29,319
Speaker 2: it wasn't it. You know, you know who's fearless. That

630
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: wasn't it at all. Who's got the ability to make

631
00:35:32,840 --> 00:35:36,800
Speaker 2: that sale? Because that's what you're really doing. You're selling

632
00:35:36,840 --> 00:35:39,480
Speaker 2: your load of bullshit, you know, to get people to

633
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: want to follow you, to want to be part of

634
00:35:41,360 --> 00:35:44,600
Speaker 2: your hustle, or to let you into their hustle. It's

635
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:45,439
Speaker 2: a sales.

636
00:35:45,120 --> 00:35:48,480
Speaker 1: Pitch that makes sense because you're even selling yourself that

637
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:51,040
Speaker 1: people want to speak to you selling the product or

638
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:56,000
Speaker 1: purchasing your guns, your drugs or whatever. There's one side

639
00:35:56,040 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 1: of it. Well we'll touch on it because both of

640
00:35:57,840 --> 00:36:01,560
Speaker 1: us don't lock at very much the paperwork associated with it.

641
00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: So just to clarify the reality of I know, obviously

642
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:10,360
Speaker 1: in homicide we've worked with undercovered guys and girls and

643
00:36:10,440 --> 00:36:12,960
Speaker 1: the amount of paperwork that goes with it. There's an

644
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:17,839
Speaker 1: accountability because when you're as an undercover officer, invariably, if

645
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:21,719
Speaker 1: you're giving evidence at court, the defense barrister solicitors again

646
00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,200
Speaker 1: to attack you. Well you're a professional liar, aren't you.

647
00:36:24,320 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: So it's all about recording and documenting. That's another side

648
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:31,120
Speaker 1: of it that you've got to be very keep accountable

649
00:36:31,160 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 1: documents and spend a lot of time recording everything that

650
00:36:34,920 --> 00:36:35,239
Speaker 1: you do.

651
00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:37,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, you know, it's funny how they don't show that

652
00:36:37,719 --> 00:36:42,319
Speaker 2: part in the movies around the television show, right. So yeah,

653
00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 2: and when you think about it, everything you do out there,

654
00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: for every minute of action, you know that all has

655
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 2: to be accounted for somewhere in a report. So very

656
00:36:55,640 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 2: similar you know, to a homicide investigation. You know, you

657
00:36:58,680 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 2: know that every single per you interview, right, you know,

658
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,160
Speaker 2: every single piece of evidence you collect, no matter what

659
00:37:04,160 --> 00:37:06,680
Speaker 2: it is, you have to go back to the office,

660
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:09,680
Speaker 2: get on your computer and you know, well when I

661
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 2: started it was typewriters, but anyway, you get on there

662
00:37:12,600 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 2: and that all has to be logged in, that all

663
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 2: has to be accounted for, and you have to regurgitate everything.

664
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,279
Speaker 2: You know, even if you recorded it, you know, you

665
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,399
Speaker 2: still have to regurgitate. You know, what was said, what

666
00:37:24,440 --> 00:37:29,319
Speaker 2: you what you took from that interviewmrize it. So if

667
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: you and that's another thing you asked about the characteristics

668
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: of a good undercover. All the best undercovers were really

669
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:41,560
Speaker 2: tight with their paperwork because you had to be. And

670
00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,880
Speaker 2: for the exact reason you said, if you were not

671
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,080
Speaker 2: good with your you could be the greatest undercover in

672
00:37:47,120 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 2: the world. If you couldn't translate that onto paper and

673
00:37:51,160 --> 00:37:53,839
Speaker 2: your reports weren't tight, you would get torn up in

674
00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,279
Speaker 2: court by by a good defense attorney. So the ability

675
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 2: to translate what you did, what you heard, what you

676
00:38:05,440 --> 00:38:09,880
Speaker 2: saw onto paper was so important that that was a

677
00:38:09,960 --> 00:38:13,560
Speaker 2: huge aspect of the job because if you couldn't do that,

678
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:17,080
Speaker 2: you're going to lose in court, and then everything you

679
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:19,000
Speaker 2: did was all for nothing. Anyway.

680
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:25,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've saying that I've seen undercovers in court in

681
00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: murder trials and that it's ruthless. The cross examination they

682
00:38:29,520 --> 00:38:33,960
Speaker 1: get to discredit everything that's come on, Taking away from

683
00:38:34,000 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 1: the paperwork, the courts and all that. How do you

684
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:38,400
Speaker 1: gain the trust of the people you're targeting.

685
00:38:38,920 --> 00:38:42,440
Speaker 2: I think all of us who did it, we all

686
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:47,400
Speaker 2: we would draw on our own personal experiences on life.

687
00:38:47,760 --> 00:38:51,759
Speaker 2: So and I use this analogy, and I know it's

688
00:38:51,840 --> 00:38:56,320
Speaker 2: very corny, but it's very similar to if you see

689
00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,840
Speaker 2: a girl you're very attracted to and you know you

690
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,440
Speaker 2: want to cold, You're going to do a cold approach, right,

691
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,680
Speaker 2: you see she's bellied up to the bar. You know,

692
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:12,040
Speaker 2: how are you going to do that? Right? You don't

693
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:14,799
Speaker 2: want to come on too strong, right, you don't want

694
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:18,040
Speaker 2: to be real standard offish and cool, right because you

695
00:39:18,080 --> 00:39:20,360
Speaker 2: know so, So you've got to figure out you know,

696
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 2: you have to first you have to assess her personality, right,

697
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,239
Speaker 2: you know, and then you have to figure out what's

698
00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:31,319
Speaker 2: the best way to keep her engaged with me, to

699
00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:33,440
Speaker 2: keep her talking to me so that I can get

700
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,799
Speaker 2: a phone number, all right. And it's very that's very

701
00:39:36,800 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: similar to undercover work, right, So first thing you got

702
00:39:39,560 --> 00:39:44,440
Speaker 2: to do is you assess your target, whether it's outlaw bikers,

703
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: you know, the mafia, the cartels, you know, whoever it

704
00:39:49,960 --> 00:39:54,520
Speaker 2: may be, you know, the gangster disciples, street gangs, you know.

705
00:39:54,600 --> 00:39:58,960
Speaker 2: You assess who you're going after, and then come up

706
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 2: with a technique or a plan. And if you don't

707
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:06,080
Speaker 2: think that your personality is going to work, maybe you're

708
00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:08,600
Speaker 2: not the right undercover. Right, maybe you need to say, hey, listen,

709
00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 2: I think someone that's important, right, you know, know your limitations.

710
00:40:13,520 --> 00:40:19,840
Speaker 2: So my approach was always listen, I'm not trying to

711
00:40:20,040 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 2: become a member of the Sinaloa cartel, all right, I'm

712
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:26,680
Speaker 2: a big note totalian. They're not gonna let me hit.

713
00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:31,240
Speaker 2: So my goal I'd never tried to necessarily become a member,

714
00:40:31,360 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 2: but I wanted them to want to become a part

715
00:40:35,200 --> 00:40:38,400
Speaker 2: of my hustle. So I would let them see me

716
00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:40,880
Speaker 2: and know that I had my own hustle going on,

717
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:45,040
Speaker 2: and make them want to be around me. Right, You

718
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:47,520
Speaker 2: always want to be the most popular guy in the room,

719
00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: so people are kind of drawn to you. So you

720
00:40:49,719 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: want to do that with the bad guys, with your tarts,

721
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 2: make them want to be a part of your hustle, Like,

722
00:40:54,480 --> 00:40:57,239
Speaker 2: hey man, what's that guy going on? And how can

723
00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: I make money off him? You know that that was

724
00:41:00,480 --> 00:41:04,200
Speaker 2: always my approach, you know, not to say, listen, I

725
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:05,880
Speaker 2: want I want to be a Hell's Angel, you know

726
00:41:06,000 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 2: I want to My approach was, listen, here's you know,

727
00:41:09,400 --> 00:41:11,120
Speaker 2: I see what you got going on. Man, I see

728
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:13,239
Speaker 2: your hustle. You know, here's what I got going on.

729
00:41:13,400 --> 00:41:16,080
Speaker 2: Maybe we can work together and make some money. Right,

730
00:41:16,239 --> 00:41:18,359
Speaker 2: Maybe you can help me and I can help you.

731
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 2: Do you know that? That is how I went into it,

732
00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 2: and never a hard sale, never a hard push. I

733
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,359
Speaker 2: would just put it out there what I could, how

734
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: I could help them what I had to offer, and

735
00:41:28,239 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 2: you know, let them see how eye roll.

736
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,319
Speaker 1: The people you're dealing with too, they get the the Yeah,

737
00:41:33,480 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: they got the straight smarts. They'll they'll smell you out.

738
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,279
Speaker 1: They'll smell a copper mill away. And if you come

739
00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 1: on come on too hot, Uh, you're going to be

740
00:41:41,200 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: fobbed off. But you've gotta make it. I understand what

741
00:41:43,600 --> 00:41:45,359
Speaker 1: you're saying. You've got to dangle it out there, get

742
00:41:45,400 --> 00:41:48,319
Speaker 1: them curious and and uh want to reach out to you.

743
00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 1: So I dare say they think they're in control of

744
00:41:51,239 --> 00:41:53,839
Speaker 1: the pace of what's developing heat as well.

745
00:41:54,160 --> 00:41:58,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, you know you don't. You don't want to.

746
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:02,040
Speaker 2: That's why we talked about earlier. That tough guy approach

747
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: rarely ever works. If you come on too strong and

748
00:42:06,280 --> 00:42:08,880
Speaker 2: come out as a tough guy and you know I

749
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 2: did time in this person and that person. First of all,

750
00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:15,759
Speaker 2: those things are easily checked on. Right you talk shit,

751
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:17,759
Speaker 2: you say you know you were in this prison, or

752
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:20,439
Speaker 2: that you better know you know what cell block were

753
00:42:20,440 --> 00:42:22,799
Speaker 2: you in, and you better know all that information, right,

754
00:42:22,880 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: because they do, I guarantee. If they don't, their friends do.

755
00:42:26,920 --> 00:42:32,759
Speaker 2: So it's always super important to keep everything as real

756
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,120
Speaker 2: as you can keep it and as close to home

757
00:42:35,160 --> 00:42:39,160
Speaker 2: as you can keep it so so that they don't

758
00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 2: feel like you're trying to necessarily run a hustle on them.

759
00:42:44,400 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 2: They feel like, wow, hey, this guy, obviously he wants

760
00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 2: to make some money off us. Can we make some

761
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,560
Speaker 2: money off him? And maybe we can work together and

762
00:42:53,600 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: be in business to get it. Because you know, what

763
00:42:56,680 --> 00:42:59,839
Speaker 2: I found was no matter who I was working, whether

764
00:43:00,000 --> 00:43:05,360
Speaker 2: they were you know, supposedly these you know, white supremast groups,

765
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:11,400
Speaker 2: or whether there were Mexican cartels, Italian mafia, black street gangs,

766
00:43:13,360 --> 00:43:16,200
Speaker 2: none of that. Man, None of them had any real

767
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:19,360
Speaker 2: ideology or any of that. It was always about money.

768
00:43:19,880 --> 00:43:23,200
Speaker 2: They would deal with anyone who could make them money

769
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:25,919
Speaker 2: if they trusted them. That's what it was always about.

770
00:43:26,320 --> 00:43:29,200
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So you found what they're what they're they're

771
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,640
Speaker 1: looking for, and get them curious about it. I want

772
00:43:32,680 --> 00:43:36,560
Speaker 1: to take into one one case that's mentioned in your book,

773
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 1: and being a homicide detective as long as I am

774
00:43:40,520 --> 00:43:43,760
Speaker 1: seeing someone preventing the homicide is great. I'm talking about

775
00:43:43,800 --> 00:43:49,239
Speaker 1: the doctor where your role was as a hired hit

776
00:43:49,320 --> 00:43:51,520
Speaker 1: man to knock off his wife. Do you want to

777
00:43:51,560 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: tell us through that that story, because I think that

778
00:43:53,560 --> 00:43:56,359
Speaker 1: gives an interesting insight into the type of good that

779
00:43:56,719 --> 00:43:58,799
Speaker 1: undercover operatives can can do.

780
00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was a very bizarre case and it was

781
00:44:03,000 --> 00:44:04,399
Speaker 2: you know, for me, it was it was a big

782
00:44:04,440 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: deal in my career because it actually went to the

783
00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,439
Speaker 2: Supreme Court, the United States Supreme Court, and it made

784
00:44:10,480 --> 00:44:15,120
Speaker 2: case law. Uh. And it's the reason why an undercover

785
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:20,760
Speaker 2: cell phone is now considered a device a communication device

786
00:44:20,800 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: in interstate commerce. So if you use one of these

787
00:44:26,080 --> 00:44:29,319
Speaker 2: it in the commission of a murder for hire, they

788
00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: take it federally right away.

789
00:44:31,080 --> 00:44:31,800
Speaker 1: I can take you.

790
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: So this very well known, very respected doctor, and he

791
00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:44,560
Speaker 2: was actually a doctor for the LPGA, the Ladies Professional

792
00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:50,440
Speaker 2: Golf Association. He he was married to a much younger

793
00:44:51,560 --> 00:44:56,319
Speaker 2: attractive woman and the marriage was going south and there

794
00:44:56,320 --> 00:45:01,840
Speaker 2: were financial issues there his property. He had a second

795
00:45:01,920 --> 00:45:04,360
Speaker 2: house that was that he rented out.

796
00:45:04,600 --> 00:45:04,719
Speaker 1: Uh.

797
00:45:04,840 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 2: He happened to live very close to the Federal Law

798
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,759
Speaker 2: Enforcement Training Center. Uh, you know where our academy is

799
00:45:13,840 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 2: and many other academies are. And it was not uncommon

800
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 2: for a lot of the instructors, you know, to rent

801
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:23,200
Speaker 2: local houses, you know, local apartments and He had a

802
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 2: guy who was living in this house who was a

803
00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:30,000
Speaker 2: he was a former military one of those secret squirrel

804
00:45:30,040 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 2: guys who was a firearms instructor at the academy. And

805
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:36,680
Speaker 2: the doctor was really into guns and all that, and

806
00:45:36,719 --> 00:45:38,439
Speaker 2: they had kind of you know, the guy was renting

807
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 2: a house from him, and they had become friends and

808
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,040
Speaker 2: he would work on the doctor's guns and all that.

809
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,480
Speaker 2: And one day the doctor approached him and said, hey, man,

810
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,720
Speaker 2: I know you were you were in that that world,

811
00:45:49,760 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: that whole secret spy world and all that. He said,

812
00:45:54,520 --> 00:45:56,239
Speaker 2: would you know anyone who could help me out? I

813
00:45:56,280 --> 00:46:00,120
Speaker 2: got to get rid of my wife? And you know,

814
00:46:00,200 --> 00:46:01,719
Speaker 2: I mean there was there was trust there. You know,

815
00:46:02,280 --> 00:46:04,040
Speaker 2: they had known each other, and this guy was like

816
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:10,200
Speaker 2: he kind of blew him off. But I guess like

817
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:12,920
Speaker 2: the third time the doctor asked him, he was like, man,

818
00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:14,040
Speaker 2: this guy is serious.

819
00:46:14,400 --> 00:46:17,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, there's another law and I want to kill my wife.

820
00:46:17,280 --> 00:46:19,680
Speaker 1: It's uh, he's starving the thinking playing.

821
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:23,200
Speaker 2: So you know atf we we had over here in America,

822
00:46:23,480 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 2: you know that that was murder for hires had become

823
00:46:25,719 --> 00:46:30,120
Speaker 2: one of our things, one of our specialties, you know

824
00:46:30,160 --> 00:46:34,879
Speaker 2: that we did as undercovers. And this guy. He went

825
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,520
Speaker 2: to supervisor, who directed him to go up to our

826
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: our office, and he sat down with my supervisor and

827
00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:45,839
Speaker 2: told him the story. So my supervisor called me in

828
00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,360
Speaker 2: and uh, he told me the story. And so I

829
00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: gave him my undercover cell phone number, and I said, listen,

830
00:46:54,000 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: don't don't approach him about it. Don't say anything else

831
00:46:56,760 --> 00:47:02,040
Speaker 2: to him. If he comes to you again, tell him, yeah,

832
00:47:02,080 --> 00:47:03,799
Speaker 2: say listen, I have something you can talk to. Give

833
00:47:03,880 --> 00:47:07,400
Speaker 2: him my number. And he said okay, and he left.

834
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:12,359
Speaker 2: And honestly, you know, with murder for hires, I'd never

835
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:16,359
Speaker 2: really thought about it again, because we would get that

836
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:18,480
Speaker 2: more often than you think, because a lot of guys,

837
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 2: a lot of people talk crazy, you know, They're like,

838
00:47:20,360 --> 00:47:21,840
Speaker 2: I want to kill this guy. I want to have

839
00:47:21,920 --> 00:47:25,360
Speaker 2: him killed, you know. But as you know, some people

840
00:47:25,400 --> 00:47:28,560
Speaker 2: do carry through with it. They will. And a couple

841
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: of weeks later, I'm in the grocery store with my

842
00:47:30,320 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: wife and my undercover cell phone rings. It was a

843
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,560
Speaker 2: number I didn't recognize, and I answer it and he says, hey,

844
00:47:36,600 --> 00:47:39,600
Speaker 2: this is the doc, and you talk and I had

845
00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: to think real quick, and I was like, oh boy,

846
00:47:41,000 --> 00:47:44,719
Speaker 2: that's the doctor down there. So I told him. I said, yeah,

847
00:47:44,760 --> 00:47:46,279
Speaker 2: let me get somewhere I can talk. I'll call you

848
00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:48,480
Speaker 2: back in fifteen minutes or whatever. And I, you know,

849
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: back then, you couldn't just this is cell phones had

850
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:53,360
Speaker 2: just come out, and you know, so I had to

851
00:47:53,360 --> 00:47:55,720
Speaker 2: go home and get my recording equipment, turn the recorder

852
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: and put it in my ear and put the phone

853
00:47:57,320 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: up and so talk to him, and we set up

854
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,840
Speaker 2: a meeting and I ended up meeting him at a

855
00:48:04,960 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 2: public place, at a restaurant, and I let him do

856
00:48:09,600 --> 00:48:12,280
Speaker 2: all the talking. I guarantee you when that first meeting,

857
00:48:12,800 --> 00:48:19,680
Speaker 2: I probably didn't say twenty five words, and he just

858
00:48:20,280 --> 00:48:23,720
Speaker 2: he really started going into in the first meeting, telling

859
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: me all about his relationship and how it had gone south.

860
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,239
Speaker 2: And I'm thinking this is kind of weird, you know,

861
00:48:31,320 --> 00:48:35,560
Speaker 2: at because now I'm in hitman. We're a hitman uniform,

862
00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:37,440
Speaker 2: and I'm thinking, you know, as a hit man, I

863
00:48:37,480 --> 00:48:39,400
Speaker 2: don't want to hear this shit. I want to know

864
00:48:39,719 --> 00:48:42,000
Speaker 2: what are you paying me? You know, who is she?

865
00:48:42,080 --> 00:48:42,600
Speaker 2: Where is she?

866
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 1: Right?

867
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,320
Speaker 2: That's all I want to know. But as an undercover

868
00:48:45,440 --> 00:48:48,840
Speaker 2: I'm like, oh, keep talking, dude, right, keep talking, because

869
00:48:48,840 --> 00:48:52,120
Speaker 2: this is this is all good. Because that first partner

870
00:48:52,200 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 2: I told you about. He had taught me from the beginning.

871
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 2: When you're working undercover, shut your mouth. Nobody's going to

872
00:48:58,719 --> 00:49:02,040
Speaker 2: prison based on what you say. They're going to prison

873
00:49:02,080 --> 00:49:03,920
Speaker 2: based on what they say, So shut your mouth and

874
00:49:03,960 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: let them talk. You know, he went into the whole

875
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: story about you know her and you know how terrible

876
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:14,359
Speaker 2: she was and all that, and so I think at

877
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 2: that first meeting I might have gotten her name, and

878
00:49:18,000 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 2: he wrote down on a piece of paper for me

879
00:49:21,760 --> 00:49:24,359
Speaker 2: where she works and what her address is, and when

880
00:49:24,560 --> 00:49:27,560
Speaker 2: you're doing the murder for howre That stuff is great

881
00:49:27,680 --> 00:49:31,680
Speaker 2: because when you go to trial, and they almost always do,

882
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:34,759
Speaker 2: you want to put as much on the table as

883
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:36,840
Speaker 2: you can because they're always going to say it was entrapman.

884
00:49:37,760 --> 00:49:43,240
Speaker 2: So so the more evidence you have besides just the conversation.

885
00:49:43,440 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 2: If all you have is a conversation, it's not nearly

886
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:47,600
Speaker 2: as strong. But if if you can put some evidence

887
00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:49,960
Speaker 2: on the table makes it so much stronger. So at

888
00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:52,440
Speaker 2: least now I got a piece of paper in his handwriting,

889
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:57,120
Speaker 2: he wrote out her name, her her address, and her

890
00:49:57,200 --> 00:50:00,160
Speaker 2: place of employment. You know, why else would you do

891
00:50:00,239 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: that unless you know you want to.

892
00:50:03,120 --> 00:50:05,520
Speaker 1: You'll definitely add some white to the caist, doesn't it

893
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:07,719
Speaker 1: in that? Getting the evidence in that manner.

894
00:50:08,480 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 2: But you know what happened next. I couldn't even believe

895
00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:17,040
Speaker 2: it happened. So we had several meetings and I ended

896
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,279
Speaker 2: up telling him and this was just a shot in

897
00:50:19,320 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 2: the dark, a total shot in the dark.

898
00:50:22,239 --> 00:50:22,400
Speaker 1: You know.

899
00:50:22,520 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 2: I had told him that the way I was going

900
00:50:25,520 --> 00:50:26,680
Speaker 2: to do it was I was going to make it

901
00:50:26,719 --> 00:50:30,040
Speaker 2: look like a robbery. I was just just an everyday robbery.

902
00:50:30,480 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: I stick a gun in her face, give me all

903
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:35,279
Speaker 2: your jewelry, all your money, all that. And you know

904
00:50:36,200 --> 00:50:38,120
Speaker 2: over here robberies go bad all the time and the

905
00:50:38,200 --> 00:50:40,719
Speaker 2: victim gets shot anyway. So that's how that was going

906
00:50:40,760 --> 00:50:44,880
Speaker 2: to happen. So again, I don't know why I did this,

907
00:50:45,000 --> 00:50:49,040
Speaker 2: but I did it. I said, listen, this would be

908
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,280
Speaker 2: a lot better if you can get me a gun,

909
00:50:51,480 --> 00:50:55,120
Speaker 2: a good clean gun to do it. And he said, yeah,

910
00:50:55,120 --> 00:51:00,160
Speaker 2: ill get your gun. And in our next meeting he

911
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:03,279
Speaker 2: brought a thirty eight caliber Smith and Wesson revolver for

912
00:51:03,320 --> 00:51:06,880
Speaker 2: me to kill his wife. So now you're talking about evidence.

913
00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:08,960
Speaker 2: I mean, it doesn't get any better than that. Now

914
00:51:09,520 --> 00:51:13,640
Speaker 2: I could put the writings he made, you know, her name,

915
00:51:14,120 --> 00:51:20,879
Speaker 2: her place of employment, her address, the conversation, and the

916
00:51:20,920 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 2: gun he gave me to kill her. So again it's

917
00:51:26,200 --> 00:51:30,360
Speaker 2: incredible evidence. So we had several meetings, we had several

918
00:51:30,400 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: phone calls, and again usually at this point, most of

919
00:51:35,719 --> 00:51:39,120
Speaker 2: these cases here in America, that would be a state charge,

920
00:51:40,280 --> 00:51:42,320
Speaker 2: a murder for her, but there is a federal charge.

921
00:51:42,760 --> 00:51:45,560
Speaker 2: But for a federal charge here in the States, you

922
00:51:45,640 --> 00:51:48,319
Speaker 2: have to show there's an interstate in nexus. For any

923
00:51:48,360 --> 00:51:51,319
Speaker 2: federal charge, any charge, if there's a gun involved, all

924
00:51:51,320 --> 00:51:52,640
Speaker 2: you have to do is you have to show that

925
00:51:52,640 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: that gun at some point crossed the state line. So

926
00:51:55,040 --> 00:51:59,080
Speaker 2: if the gun was made in Florida and you arrested

927
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:03,239
Speaker 2: the guy with the gun in South Carolina, obviously that

928
00:52:03,280 --> 00:52:05,239
Speaker 2: gun at some point across the state line. It's as

929
00:52:05,239 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 2: simple as that. So we ended up after all that happened,

930
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: and we had to actually bring her and her daughter

931
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:18,520
Speaker 2: in before during the case because the government got worried

932
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,600
Speaker 2: that maybe I wasn't the only person he was talking to,

933
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 2: maybe he had a backup plan. That's the case.

934
00:52:23,560 --> 00:52:26,560
Speaker 1: You've bought up an aspect. These are the other things,

935
00:52:26,600 --> 00:52:29,680
Speaker 1: like when you're talking it through, Okay, that's logical, that's logical.

936
00:52:29,760 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 1: But I was curious about that because once you know

937
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: someone's going to plan to have someone knocked, you've got

938
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 1: a risk that you've got to address. And I was

939
00:52:39,560 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: wondering how you did that.

940
00:52:40,760 --> 00:52:46,880
Speaker 2: That was one of the toughest, toughest talks of my life.

941
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:52,279
Speaker 2: You know, they brought her in. She had no idea,

942
00:52:52,800 --> 00:52:55,000
Speaker 2: she had no idea why. They went to her job

943
00:52:55,480 --> 00:52:57,080
Speaker 2: and said, we really need to talk to you, but

944
00:52:57,360 --> 00:53:00,680
Speaker 2: we can't do it here. She's like, what do you

945
00:53:00,719 --> 00:53:02,400
Speaker 2: want And they were like, listen, we really can't do

946
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:05,040
Speaker 2: it here, so will you please come with us? And

947
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: she was like, well, I need my daughter. So they

948
00:53:06,600 --> 00:53:08,360
Speaker 2: had to go get the daughter out of school and

949
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:13,680
Speaker 2: brought her to a hotel and you know, we had

950
00:53:13,719 --> 00:53:17,440
Speaker 2: to tell her to listen, your husband is hiring someone

951
00:53:17,440 --> 00:53:19,600
Speaker 2: to kill you. That is a tough thing to hear

952
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:23,160
Speaker 2: that your spouse is hiring a person to kill you.

953
00:53:25,120 --> 00:53:29,799
Speaker 2: And then I had to talk to her and you know,

954
00:53:29,840 --> 00:53:32,560
Speaker 2: obviously there were tears and I mean the emotions were

955
00:53:32,600 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 2: crazy as you can imagine. And she was a strong woman.

956
00:53:39,080 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 2: Let me tell you, we actually got her. I don't

957
00:53:43,360 --> 00:53:46,399
Speaker 2: want to say it like that. She agreed to make

958
00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:51,920
Speaker 2: a recorded phone call for us, which was another great

959
00:53:52,040 --> 00:53:55,520
Speaker 2: piece of evidence. You know, we told her, listen, it's

960
00:53:55,560 --> 00:53:57,520
Speaker 2: not about him, it's about you and your daughter and

961
00:53:57,560 --> 00:54:00,240
Speaker 2: your safety. And she was able to pull herself together

962
00:54:00,280 --> 00:54:04,399
Speaker 2: and make a very damning, damning phone call to him

963
00:54:04,400 --> 00:54:08,680
Speaker 2: where he he went crazy and yelled and said bad things.

964
00:54:08,680 --> 00:54:12,680
Speaker 2: So it was good evidence again, and so we took

965
00:54:12,719 --> 00:54:17,160
Speaker 2: them into protective custody. And I had met with him

966
00:54:17,200 --> 00:54:21,480
Speaker 2: in person on a couple occasions, we had talked on

967
00:54:21,520 --> 00:54:26,200
Speaker 2: the phone on several occasions. She told him during that

968
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,399
Speaker 2: recorded phone call she was going up to their lake

969
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:34,440
Speaker 2: house with her sister to see her sister. You know,

970
00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,000
Speaker 2: we're getting ready to take him down. And he called

971
00:54:38,040 --> 00:54:42,440
Speaker 2: me immediately after, and this was crazy. He said, well,

972
00:54:42,480 --> 00:54:44,880
Speaker 2: maybe you could drown her. Maybe you could get in

973
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:47,200
Speaker 2: the water when she swims and pull her under and

974
00:54:47,239 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 2: dround her. And I said, listen, man, we agreed on

975
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:51,640
Speaker 2: how I'm going to do this. You know, I can't

976
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:55,799
Speaker 2: even swim. So I always gave him an out. I said, listen,

977
00:54:55,800 --> 00:54:58,239
Speaker 2: if you're not serious, tell me now, and he was

978
00:54:58,280 --> 00:55:00,680
Speaker 2: like no, no, no, he goes, you could just maybe

979
00:55:00,760 --> 00:55:02,960
Speaker 2: could just like get her on the side of the roads.

980
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:05,279
Speaker 2: After that, when he hung up, he called me from

981
00:55:05,680 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 2: a payphone. There was payphones back then called me from

982
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:12,239
Speaker 2: a payphone, and he was being surveiled. When he hung up,

983
00:55:12,400 --> 00:55:18,520
Speaker 2: agents zoomed in and arrested him. And uh, how we

984
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,640
Speaker 2: turned that case federal was that when he called me

985
00:55:23,120 --> 00:55:27,359
Speaker 2: from that from his cell phone when we had conversations,

986
00:55:28,320 --> 00:55:30,160
Speaker 2: he was in South Georgia, which is right on the

987
00:55:30,160 --> 00:55:34,400
Speaker 2: border of North Florida. The signal bounced off a tower

988
00:55:34,480 --> 00:55:37,240
Speaker 2: in Jacksonville, Florida, back up to my phone in Georgia.

989
00:55:37,680 --> 00:55:39,759
Speaker 2: And this sounds real chicken shit, and it is.

990
00:55:40,560 --> 00:55:44,480
Speaker 1: That was our that was our name, the rules, that's.

991
00:55:44,360 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: Right, hey whatever, hey, however you can do. So that

992
00:55:47,120 --> 00:55:49,759
Speaker 2: was our interstate nexus day he used. He used his

993
00:55:49,960 --> 00:55:54,000
Speaker 2: cell phone, and it affected interstate commerce because the signal

994
00:55:54,040 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 2: bounced to Florida back up to Georgia. So he went

995
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 2: to trial and he lost. The jury found him guilty,

996
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 2: but they appealed it and it went all the way.

997
00:56:04,440 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: They didn't appeal it and say he's not guilty. They

998
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:11,200
Speaker 2: appealed it and said they fabricated federal jurisdiction by this

999
00:56:11,280 --> 00:56:14,680
Speaker 2: whole hokey cell phone tower thing, and it went all

1000
00:56:14,680 --> 00:56:16,520
Speaker 2: the way up to the Supreme Court, and the Supreme

1001
00:56:16,560 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 2: Court made the decision and said, no, this device is

1002
00:56:22,000 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 2: interstate commerce.

1003
00:56:23,840 --> 00:56:27,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So well that with a change change the landscape

1004
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:30,040
Speaker 1: for quite a few things. Doing a job like that,

1005
00:56:30,080 --> 00:56:32,839
Speaker 1: there's a lot of satisfaction. But there's a little anecdote

1006
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:36,640
Speaker 1: to that one that occurred years later, if I read

1007
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:39,480
Speaker 1: it correctly in the book, that you were in a

1008
00:56:39,520 --> 00:56:43,480
Speaker 1: restaurant with your wife and family years and years down

1009
00:56:43,520 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 1: the track, and the waiter was looking at you. Is

1010
00:56:46,600 --> 00:56:48,719
Speaker 1: that the case that it relates? So you want to

1011
00:56:48,719 --> 00:56:50,799
Speaker 1: tell that story because I think it's something that would

1012
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:54,160
Speaker 1: have given you a real uh yeah kick, along as

1013
00:56:54,400 --> 00:56:55,279
Speaker 1: the work that you've done.

1014
00:56:56,160 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 2: So that girl when they pulled her in and was

1015
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 2: she was a kid man. She was maybe thirteen or

1016
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:06,359
Speaker 2: fourteen years old, the daughter of the doctor's wife. And

1017
00:57:08,160 --> 00:57:10,160
Speaker 2: you know he was not her biological father. He had

1018
00:57:10,200 --> 00:57:20,080
Speaker 2: adopted her. So yeah, maybe maybe seven years later, I'm

1019
00:57:20,120 --> 00:57:24,120
Speaker 2: at a restaurant with my wife and kids and the waitress,

1020
00:57:24,560 --> 00:57:29,200
Speaker 2: young attractive lady, kept staring at me, and I'm like,

1021
00:57:30,320 --> 00:57:34,360
Speaker 2: you know, I had no idea who she was. I

1022
00:57:34,400 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 2: couldn't place her or anything like that. Finally she came

1023
00:57:36,800 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 2: up to me and she started crying and said, you

1024
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:41,840
Speaker 2: don't remember me? Did And I said I do not,

1025
00:57:42,920 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 2: And she said, you saved my mother's life and told

1026
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,480
Speaker 2: me who she was and all that, and we you know,

1027
00:57:49,520 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 2: we hugged it out, and you know, it was it

1028
00:57:53,240 --> 00:57:57,880
Speaker 2: was a very special moment for me because you know,

1029
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,640
Speaker 2: as an undercover agent, you know, I would go to

1030
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 2: a town or a city and do my job and

1031
00:58:04,760 --> 00:58:07,560
Speaker 2: leave right you know, I usually wouldn't even be there

1032
00:58:07,600 --> 00:58:10,520
Speaker 2: for the rest, you know, I would leave and I'd

1033
00:58:10,520 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 2: be on to the next one. And so you very

1034
00:58:13,160 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 2: rarely do you ever see the fruits of your labor

1035
00:58:16,720 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: or do you even interact with victims or anything like that.

1036
00:58:19,920 --> 00:58:22,520
Speaker 2: And this was really the first time in my undercovered

1037
00:58:22,520 --> 00:58:26,560
Speaker 2: career that I ever felt a sense of wow, you know,

1038
00:58:26,600 --> 00:58:30,320
Speaker 2: here's here's a life that I was able to affect

1039
00:58:30,320 --> 00:58:33,600
Speaker 2: in a positive way through my work, you know, and

1040
00:58:33,640 --> 00:58:34,440
Speaker 2: it meant a lot to me.

1041
00:58:34,680 --> 00:58:37,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine that would and that's something tangible

1042
00:58:37,440 --> 00:58:40,720
Speaker 1: for the sacrifices and the effort and the chaos that

1043
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:43,400
Speaker 1: goes on with your life doing the doing the type

1044
00:58:43,400 --> 00:58:46,760
Speaker 1: of work. Lou we might we might take a break here.

1045
00:58:46,600 --> 00:58:49,200
Speaker 1: There's so much to cover. When we come back, I

1046
00:58:49,200 --> 00:58:52,080
Speaker 1: want to talk about the storefront strategies, a little bit

1047
00:58:52,080 --> 00:58:55,080
Speaker 1: of straight street theater. I like that that give always

1048
00:58:55,080 --> 00:58:58,200
Speaker 1: gives me a giggle when you create, create that, but

1049
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:01,520
Speaker 1: also about the impact that's had the life that you've lived,

1050
00:59:01,600 --> 00:59:06,600
Speaker 1: and the type of situations you've faced throughout your career

1051
00:59:06,640 --> 00:59:09,840
Speaker 1: as a law enforcement officer. But it's like law enforcement

1052
00:59:09,920 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: on steroids, I reckon, when you go undercover, it's really

1053
00:59:13,480 --> 00:59:16,440
Speaker 1: at the sharp bend. So when we get back, we'll

1054
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 1: have a chat about that. Looking forward to it, all right, brother,

1055
00:59:19,640 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 1: cheers