WEBVTT - Episode 20: The Shire 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:04.600 Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwe contains coarse 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:08.800 language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to 0:00:08.840 --> 0:00:46.240 you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Goodbye every week. 0:00:46.800 --> 0:00:51.720 Okay mate, hell are we Maddy? 0:00:52.640 --> 0:00:54.080 I'll take you my down to born that have been 0:00:54.200 --> 0:00:54.920 quieted out there. 0:00:58.640 --> 0:01:01.520 It has been thirty one and a half years since 0:01:01.600 --> 0:01:05.600 Glen Webster built his own home in a place called Illiwong. 0:01:06.520 --> 0:01:09.080 Glenn and his wife had a young family. Back then, 0:01:10.120 --> 0:01:13.560 Illiwong was a new estate. It had started to see 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:17.959 solid family homes rising out of the bushland. The nearby 0:01:18.120 --> 0:01:23.319 Georges River and Warnora River provided easy access for boaties, 0:01:24.160 --> 0:01:26.840 but it is a fair drive west from the beaches 0:01:26.920 --> 0:01:30.680 of Cronulla in the Shire to get there. We met 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:34.479 Glen Webster at a newer, much larger house a short 0:01:34.480 --> 0:01:39.000 distance from Shelley Beach south of Crenulla. Glenn and his 0:01:39.120 --> 0:01:42.080 team of tradees had been doing a major renovation of 0:01:42.120 --> 0:01:46.520 an impressive pile perched high above gunner Matta Bay and 0:01:46.640 --> 0:01:51.040 Port Hacking a property. App estimated that you wouldn't get 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:54.480 much change out of twenty million dollars for this place, 0:01:55.040 --> 0:02:00.240 and that's before the costly reno. Building residential and kimmercial 0:02:00.320 --> 0:02:03.840 properties in the Shire has been Glenn's passion for more 0:02:03.880 --> 0:02:06.760 than forty years. It's how he met John. 0:02:07.840 --> 0:02:10.239 Still know like been on the tools, Yeah, I must have. 0:02:10.880 --> 0:02:13.200 It's this point thing isn't just coordinate it all? 0:02:14.360 --> 0:02:17.640 Before visiting Glenn on the job, I read his police 0:02:17.639 --> 0:02:22.240 statement again. It dated September twenty one, nineteen ninety eight. 0:02:23.040 --> 0:02:25.600 He was still living at that time in the house 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.040 in Illawang which John had helped build back in nineteen 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:34.359 ninety three. Glenn's statement from twenty six years ago disclosed 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.200 that he was working as a carpenter in nineteen eighty 0:02:37.240 --> 0:02:40.840 seven when he and John met. They had a mutual 0:02:40.919 --> 0:02:44.800 friend called John mcmonagall, who was also mates with John 0:02:44.840 --> 0:02:49.600 Winfield's brother Peter. Before John Winfield did the brick laying 0:02:49.680 --> 0:02:53.880 at Glenn's house at Illawong, he helped build Glenn's first 0:02:53.960 --> 0:02:59.000 family home at Menai. In Glenn's police statement, he recalled 0:02:59.040 --> 0:03:02.840 that he had met on three or four occasions, but 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:05.160 he had never been to their home and he said 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.720 John lived a very private life. Have you had any 0:03:08.720 --> 0:03:14.720 contact with police recently? They haven't conducted. When did your 0:03:14.760 --> 0:03:15.360 last spoke to. 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.120 Him, last time went at Coral at Police station. 0:03:19.080 --> 0:03:21.959 So your original statement was ninety eight, But then that 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.120 must have been during the review by George Radmill. 0:03:24.440 --> 0:03:27.399 What ye was that two thousand and eight, nine ten. 0:03:27.240 --> 0:03:30.720 That you've probably about year heap be about right then, So. 0:03:30.680 --> 0:03:36.640 I thought they might have reached out in the recent review. Okay. 0:03:37.560 --> 0:03:40.920 Glenn led us down many steps to some outdoor seating 0:03:41.000 --> 0:03:45.440 beside the water. Over the decades he has built dozens 0:03:45.520 --> 0:03:49.760 and dozens of houses, including several for his own family. 0:03:50.720 --> 0:03:53.520 He cast his mind back to the home at Illawong 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:55.640 and John Winfield's connection to it. 0:03:56.760 --> 0:03:58.600 John started the brick work there. 0:03:59.520 --> 0:04:02.960 What we were looking at were some documents from the 0:04:03.080 --> 0:04:09.040 council showing the timing of inspections and the sign off 0:04:09.120 --> 0:04:11.920 of some of the details around the garage slab and 0:04:12.120 --> 0:04:13.080 the patio slab. 0:04:14.280 --> 0:04:15.080 Yeah, okay. 0:04:16.279 --> 0:04:19.840 What it showed is that on the Thursday, the thirteenth 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:26.520 of May, the council had approved for pouring, but it 0:04:26.640 --> 0:04:31.160 was still awaiting that poor I've heard from somebody who 0:04:31.520 --> 0:04:36.000 spoke to John on the Monday the seventeenth of May. 0:04:35.839 --> 0:04:37.800 And this person said to John, what are you doing 0:04:37.839 --> 0:04:38.240 back here? 0:04:38.320 --> 0:04:40.279 Like what's going on? Why are you in such a rush? 0:04:40.320 --> 0:04:44.280 Blah blah blah. He just come back from Balan and 0:04:44.360 --> 0:04:46.440 he said, oh, I've got to go. There's a concrete Paul. 0:04:47.120 --> 0:04:50.760 So you get the inspection document giving you the green 0:04:50.880 --> 0:04:53.400 tick to do something on the Thursday the thirteenth. 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:54.880 This person was saying. 0:04:54.880 --> 0:04:59.359 On the Monday the seventeenth of May, John tells someone, 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:01.960 I'm back because there's a concrete polm going to be 0:05:02.000 --> 0:05:05.200 here for a poor. So that's indicating that the poor 0:05:05.240 --> 0:05:07.200 hasn't occurred on the weekend. 0:05:06.880 --> 0:05:09.760 Just gone. It's still ahead of you. Does that work 0:05:09.800 --> 0:05:10.000 for you. 0:05:10.640 --> 0:05:11.240 Have a year? 0:05:11.480 --> 0:05:14.520 I would have thought personally, I would have probably done 0:05:14.520 --> 0:05:17.040 it on the weekend because I was working. 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:19.440 Yeah, I could have done it. 0:05:19.920 --> 0:05:21.400 Would they have come out and poured it on a 0:05:21.440 --> 0:05:25.080 weekend on a Saturday. I'm trying to think she did 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:28.640 my concreting back then. Contractors probably could have came out 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:32.640 and done it. Yeah, yeah, okay, we just all that out. 0:05:32.880 --> 0:05:35.400 We don't have a document. I remember you saying you 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.160 might be able to find one, but there was nothing. 0:05:37.360 --> 0:05:39.120 If you went for some pos and stuff and I 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:41.680 didn't really have that much it, Well, I did find 0:05:41.720 --> 0:05:43.040 something but there's no dates on the poet. 0:05:43.080 --> 0:05:45.680 Yeah, thanks for looking. I really appreciate it. 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:47.680 I had to look prior over it then a bit 0:05:47.680 --> 0:05:48.599 of a dig last night. 0:05:48.800 --> 0:05:51.920 It's amazing that there are documents still around after three decades. 0:05:52.080 --> 0:05:52.359 Yeah. 0:05:52.720 --> 0:05:53.000 Correct. 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:55.840 There was a lady that's worked at the council for 0:05:55.960 --> 0:06:02.080 twenty five years and she runs the Scout facility or 0:06:02.120 --> 0:06:05.920 the old Scout hall, it's now the men's shed. And 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.160 I know her through my involvement with Lily Pilly clubhouse, 0:06:09.760 --> 0:06:13.080 when I rang the council and rang her and explained 0:06:13.080 --> 0:06:15.200 to who I was, and then she said, yeah, yah, yeah. 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:17.680 She was able to track down the records because she'd 0:06:17.680 --> 0:06:19.400 been there for so long she cold to even just 0:06:19.560 --> 0:06:21.040 rattle straight off the top of her head. 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.039 The four inspectors from back. 0:06:22.880 --> 0:06:28.359 Then, Glenn with that darage slab poor Andy and I 0:06:28.400 --> 0:06:31.080 were talking about that with Maddie, just thinking about the 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:34.360 logistics of that, and obviously we're looking at whether it's 0:06:34.360 --> 0:06:39.280 possible that Bromin's body was put under the rio on 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:44.960 the Monday and then the poor possibly occurred the next day. 0:06:45.040 --> 0:06:47.919 If what John told the source who spoke to me 0:06:48.200 --> 0:06:53.040 is accurate, as I understand that building site was kind 0:06:53.080 --> 0:06:55.520 of empty unless John was there with you helping him. 0:06:55.560 --> 0:06:55.839 Correct. 0:06:55.880 --> 0:06:57.800 I used to go there in the mornings and go 0:06:57.960 --> 0:06:59.120 back of there in the afternoons. 0:07:00.400 --> 0:07:03.080 So who would have been there if John were not there? 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.520 Just John, nobody else. So he's to set our in 0:07:08.600 --> 0:07:12.760 cup for the day. Any would work and just labor 0:07:12.800 --> 0:07:15.440 for himself. Yeah, yeah, then I'd go back in the 0:07:15.480 --> 0:07:20.360 afternoon start again. And what sort of activity human activity. 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:22.280 Was around that site around that time? 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:24.680 Quite a big block of lane. 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.880 It was subdivided into about three or four blocks, and 0:07:26.960 --> 0:07:29.040 I think I was the first time to be built there. 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:31.400 So it would have been quiet, yeah what I thought. 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:35.760 So, Yeah, just thinking about the logistics of that with 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:39.200 the sort of theory that we've been discussing. 0:07:39.360 --> 0:07:40.040 Is it possible? 0:07:42.360 --> 0:07:46.960 Probably unlikely the nature of the material out there, It's 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:48.200 not like it's sand. 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.920 Dealing with the slab first, because if that's what John's 0:07:52.000 --> 0:07:54.440 rushed back for and that's what he's talked about someone 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.080 that's what's on his mind. Why is it unlikely in 0:07:58.120 --> 0:08:00.080 your mind for the slab for the gap. 0:08:01.120 --> 0:08:05.000 It's sandstone and rock and it's a hard material. 0:08:05.600 --> 0:08:08.000 When I was talking to Andy about this before the 0:08:08.040 --> 0:08:10.840 way he explained it was you would take the steel 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.880 mesh off, take the plastic off, dig a hole, and 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:17.520 he thought it was probably easy to dig, as it 0:08:17.520 --> 0:08:18.280 would have been phil. 0:08:21.120 --> 0:08:21.760 No, it wasn't. 0:08:21.960 --> 0:08:23.160 No, it wasn't easy to dig. 0:08:23.640 --> 0:08:27.000 So you're saying the ground was tough ground to dig in. 0:08:29.200 --> 0:08:34.360 Every building site is different. Achieving a perfectly even level 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:37.920 for a concrete slab often means the introduction of phil, 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:42.080 dirt that has been brought in to complement the natural ground. 0:08:43.000 --> 0:08:46.679 The natural ground is always harder to dig, but the 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:50.360 phil is another story. It's relatively easy to put your 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:54.400 pick and shovel into. There was a front patio as 0:08:54.440 --> 0:08:58.400 well that also took a concrete pour, same problem. 0:08:58.440 --> 0:09:02.400 In your mind, that one was probably a lot deeper, 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:06.719 So that one was a billy that would have been 0:09:07.280 --> 0:09:09.360 like fill in there, right. 0:09:09.920 --> 0:09:12.560 The porch was back towards the left hands right. 0:09:13.280 --> 0:09:14.079 In your memory. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:17.120 Did the poor for that patio occur at the same 0:09:17.160 --> 0:09:17.680 time as. 0:09:17.520 --> 0:09:20.360 The garage, Yes, that would have happened the same time. 0:09:20.640 --> 0:09:22.839 Yeah, that was signed off at the same time. Why 0:09:22.840 --> 0:09:25.160 would John have been needed for the poor. 0:09:26.040 --> 0:09:27.880 I would have thought he would be just down there 0:09:28.200 --> 0:09:29.600 carrying on bricklaying. 0:09:29.640 --> 0:09:31.640 So you didn't necessarily need him for the poor. 0:09:33.240 --> 0:09:35.240 He was purely there to lay bricks. 0:09:35.400 --> 0:09:38.200 So I wonder why he's saying to someone, I've got 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:41.079 to be back. There's a paw as a concrete Paul. 0:09:41.600 --> 0:09:45.440 Why is John making such an effort and using the 0:09:45.520 --> 0:09:50.240 poor as the explanation. But the other option that you've raised, Glenn, 0:09:50.600 --> 0:09:54.920 is this raised area and that's at the back of 0:09:54.920 --> 0:09:57.960 the house. Is that right correct? Can you just explain 0:09:58.040 --> 0:09:59.959 that what's in that debris pile? 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:04.280 What's there timidus bricks, dirt and then it's slab at 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:04.600 the top. 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:09.440 And the documents that Andy got from the council with 0:10:09.520 --> 0:10:15.679 Maddie's help, shows that the concrete was poured there sometime 0:10:15.800 --> 0:10:16.360 in August. 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.160 That would have been the last one thing we were 0:10:20.160 --> 0:10:23.560 wondering is well, doesn't it introduce a lot more risk 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:25.880 if you're trying to conceal a body on a building 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:30.280 site and you come back the day before a poor, 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.480 but you don't put the body where the poor is 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:33.959 going to be. 0:10:34.280 --> 0:10:36.800 You put it out the back where there's a debris pile. 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:38.600 You don't know when there's going to be a poor there, 0:10:38.640 --> 0:10:41.560 and it ends up being another three months away, because 0:10:41.600 --> 0:10:44.120 you were talking Maddie about the risk of animal activity. 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:48.000 Yeah, and the smell of decomposition animals would be very 0:10:48.160 --> 0:10:49.800 very prevalent in the area. 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.760 In sects. Maybe your answers under a fund for ender. 0:10:54.640 --> 0:10:56.800 We've got the cover sheet of the file. It shows 0:10:56.840 --> 0:10:58.600 all the dates and all the information. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.200 Question regarding the raised patio. 0:11:02.520 --> 0:11:06.520 How easy would it be to get a body into 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.280 that kind of area, Like was it easily accessible? 0:11:10.080 --> 0:11:12.319 John put it back the dar up right to the corner. 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:15.600 It must be a bit of a headspin for you, Glenn, 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.760 this whole saga, knowing John as you did back in. 0:11:18.840 --> 0:11:21.080 The day, it is a bit. I never had a 0:11:21.080 --> 0:11:24.559 problem with John Patrol. Yeah, he played his cards very 0:11:24.559 --> 0:11:27.600 close to his chest. We always got on just his mates. 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.600 And he was a very good tradesman, wasn't Here's a tradesman, Yeah, 0:11:31.920 --> 0:11:32.760 very neat and tidy. 0:11:33.160 --> 0:11:39.120 YEA three my houses, the last one in two thousand 0:11:39.200 --> 0:11:39.560 and two. 0:11:40.360 --> 0:11:41.559 Have you heard from him recently? 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:45.600 Probably two and ten. Last time I've ever talked to him. 0:11:45.960 --> 0:11:48.680 Do you remember talking to him about brommin or what happened? 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:50.280 No, I never ever brought it down. 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:54.160 I've got another place to mate that he's pretty close 0:11:54.200 --> 0:11:57.680 to only pumped into him last week or so. He's 0:11:57.720 --> 0:12:01.200 known him a lot longer than me and is only 0:12:01.280 --> 0:12:03.560 just finding out stuff that he evin knew about. 0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:08.000 Do you remember when John was leaving the rush back 0:12:08.040 --> 0:12:11.199 to Balana and we know he flew up on the Sunday, 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.720 Do you recall what he said to you or conversation. 0:12:15.280 --> 0:12:16.559 Before he left or yeah? 0:12:16.640 --> 0:12:19.520 Nothing sort of. There was no red flag for me. 0:12:20.840 --> 0:12:23.439 He actually turned back up on a Monday. 0:12:24.320 --> 0:12:27.360 Michelle was looking after the girls and he went to 0:12:27.400 --> 0:12:28.560 work that first week. 0:12:28.960 --> 0:12:32.480 John comes back on the Monday the seventeenth of May. 0:12:32.920 --> 0:12:36.640 And who was brick laying for Glenn until John leaves again? 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.319 I believe it was still John because he was leading 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:41.400 my place and going to work and then coming back 0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:42.320 and having dinner with the. 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:43.040 Kids and us. 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.040 John was downing person there. 0:12:45.240 --> 0:12:48.000 So he probably was working at Glenn's for just that 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.960 week he was at our place. And then finally when 0:12:51.000 --> 0:12:53.120 I pressured him to get the girls back home and 0:12:53.160 --> 0:12:55.320 get him in school and don't report from and missing, 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.320 is when he's told Glenn, I thought, I can't finish 0:12:58.400 --> 0:13:00.240 the house, but I've got to go and going home, 0:13:00.400 --> 0:13:02.199 you said, right off he went. 0:13:02.200 --> 0:13:04.040 So that it makes sense he would have been there 0:13:04.480 --> 0:13:07.319 during the concrete for that first week. 0:13:07.400 --> 0:13:08.080 Still work it. 0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:10.240 He goes back, he's looking after the girls. The girls 0:13:10.280 --> 0:13:13.440 have been put back into school. That's when Glenn is 0:13:13.440 --> 0:13:16.839 getting another team to finish the brick clans the house 0:13:17.960 --> 0:13:18.800 good house to live in? 0:13:18.840 --> 0:13:19.040 Mate. 0:13:19.760 --> 0:13:21.160 Yeah, yeah, I. 0:13:21.120 --> 0:13:24.040 Mean it's not a nice thought. How do you feel 0:13:24.040 --> 0:13:24.439 about that? 0:13:26.040 --> 0:13:29.960 You planned the seed and you start thinking about possibilities. 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.360 I guess yeah, do you think it's possible. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.120 I don't think anything's possible. 0:13:37.200 --> 0:13:39.520 Do you know who lives there now? Now that. 0:13:41.120 --> 0:13:44.200 I asked Glenn whether he was asked by detectives to 0:13:44.320 --> 0:13:48.040 describe or comment on the Illawong building site when he 0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:51.240 spoke to the police some fifteen years ago during the 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:55.280 cold case review by the then Detective Inspector George Radmore, 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.839 Not at all, Glenn Webster replied. He said that the 0:14:00.160 --> 0:14:04.679 angle was not mentioned. Andy confirmed something that was bugging 0:14:04.760 --> 0:14:09.120 him for reverse charge long distance telephone calls from a 0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:12.680 home in the Shire to Broman's flat in Byron Street 0:14:12.760 --> 0:14:16.200 in the four weeks before her disappearance, and the total 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:21.240 duration was forty eight minutes. We established that those calls 0:14:21.280 --> 0:14:24.040 were made from a property which Glenn and his wife 0:14:24.080 --> 0:14:27.560 were renting at the time. John would stay over there 0:14:27.600 --> 0:14:31.760 while he was bricklaying for the Websters. One call on 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:35.920 April eighteen went for almost half an hour. The last 0:14:35.960 --> 0:14:39.800 reverse charge call was May eighth at eight fifteen pm, 0:14:39.840 --> 0:14:43.880 and it went for nine minutes. Before we left Glenn 0:14:43.920 --> 0:14:48.120 to his work, he and Andy stood together for photographs. 0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:56.480 Just take your classes off, mate, thanks back up at 0:14:56.560 --> 0:14:59.120 street level. I tried to put the known events of 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:04.480 Monday May seventeen into a chronological order. These are the 0:15:04.560 --> 0:15:08.920 events about which I'm confident from documents and police statements. 0:15:10.120 --> 0:15:14.000 Sometime that Monday morning, John arrived with the two girls 0:15:14.000 --> 0:15:17.240 in the Shire south of Sydney in the family Ford Falcon, 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:22.280 its registration had lapsed. He went to a house in 0:15:22.320 --> 0:15:25.120 the shire, knocked on the door and asked a woman 0:15:25.200 --> 0:15:28.400 he had never met, the mother in law of John's 0:15:28.440 --> 0:15:32.160 first wife, Jenny, and he asked that older woman to 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:36.760 look after Lauren and Crystal for the day. Joan Mason 0:15:36.960 --> 0:15:41.360 said the girls were in pajamas. In nineteen ninety eight, 0:15:41.480 --> 0:15:44.840 Joan Mason told police that John had said to her 0:15:44.960 --> 0:15:48.720 he needed some temporary child minding help as he had 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:53.160 to do a very big job. It was extremely strange 0:15:53.200 --> 0:15:57.040 behavior on John's part in my view. The two girls 0:15:57.040 --> 0:15:59.560 did not know Joan Mason from a bar of soap. 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:04.360 They had probably met Brad's new wife, Jenny, because she'd 0:16:04.400 --> 0:16:07.400 become friends with Bromwin, but there would have been a 0:16:07.520 --> 0:16:11.480 very limited connection and Jenny was out shopping. John and 0:16:11.560 --> 0:16:15.440 Jenny had not been together four years. As you have 0:16:15.560 --> 0:16:19.200 heard from previous episodes, theirs was a very sad and 0:16:19.320 --> 0:16:24.320 at times toxic relationship. It produced their daughter, Jody, who 0:16:24.400 --> 0:16:28.440 was raised by John's parents until Bromwin and John got together. 0:16:29.480 --> 0:16:33.000 Michelle and Andy Reid, the aunt and uncle of Lauren 0:16:33.080 --> 0:16:37.280 and Cristel, also lived near by in the Shire. The 0:16:37.360 --> 0:16:40.280 Reed's house should have been the first stop for John 0:16:40.320 --> 0:16:42.840 when he needed somewhere to leave the girls for a 0:16:42.880 --> 0:16:47.920 few hours. That's the first red flag indicating something else 0:16:48.080 --> 0:16:51.800 was possibly going on with John on that Monday. But 0:16:51.960 --> 0:16:56.000 what happened next? Where did John go after leaving the 0:16:56.040 --> 0:16:59.760 girls at Jenny Mason's house with her mother in law Joan. 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.160 Jenny was very surprised when she got home from shopping 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:08.719 to see Bromwin's daughters playing in the backyard. What was 0:17:08.800 --> 0:17:12.399 John doing prior to his return in the afternoon to 0:17:12.440 --> 0:17:15.680 pick up the girls to then go to Michelle and 0:17:15.680 --> 0:17:19.560 Andy's house for the first time that day. As you 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.200 have heard, John had woken the girls up in Lennox's head, 0:17:23.400 --> 0:17:27.159 put some clothes into pillowcases and driven away from a 0:17:27.200 --> 0:17:30.880 messy house on Sandstone Crescent very late the night before, 0:17:31.680 --> 0:17:35.200 then driven an unregistered car through the night and most 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:38.440 of the morning to the Shire. The evidence of what 0:17:38.520 --> 0:17:44.760 lawyers call flight is compelling. John offered no real explanation 0:17:45.040 --> 0:17:49.160 for his unusual urgency when interviewed by the detective Sergeant 0:17:49.200 --> 0:17:53.840 Glen Taylor in August nineteen ninety eight, but John did 0:17:53.920 --> 0:17:57.040 tell Glen Taylor in that interview that John had registered 0:17:57.080 --> 0:18:01.400 the Ford Falcon on the afternoon of Monday May at 0:18:01.440 --> 0:18:06.200 a place called Miranda in the Shire. Miranda is where 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:10.800 the premises of RTA for the registration of cars was situated. 0:18:11.440 --> 0:18:15.159 But when the detective checked John's credit card statement in 0:18:15.200 --> 0:18:18.920 the late nineteen nineties, it did not show a credit 0:18:18.960 --> 0:18:23.920 card charge for registration on Monday May seventeen. The May 0:18:24.040 --> 0:18:27.960 nineteen ninety three Commonwealth Bank credit card statement for John 0:18:28.000 --> 0:18:31.920 Winfield shows a charge on May twenty four of two 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:36.159 hundred and twenty two dollars, and that's one week after 0:18:36.280 --> 0:18:39.960 John's arrival in the shire. As a result of this, 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:44.280 Glen Taylor told me that he strongly suspected John had 0:18:44.359 --> 0:18:48.399 lied about registering the car at Miranda on May seventeen. 0:18:49.480 --> 0:18:53.960 The detective's formal signed police statement in nineteen ninety nine 0:18:54.080 --> 0:18:58.640 makes this point about the date discrepancy, but dates on 0:18:58.800 --> 0:19:03.040 credit card statement in the nineteen nineties did not necessarily 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:06.960 match the dates of the actual purchases. There was a 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:12.080 lag sometimes of several days. The old fashioned machines which 0:19:12.200 --> 0:19:15.000 were used when we bought things on our credit cards 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:19.320 were operated manually. They were not electronically connected to bank 0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:23.320 accounts like they are today. I'm grateful to Glenn for 0:19:23.400 --> 0:19:26.879 letting me know that he was innocently mistaken about the 0:19:27.000 --> 0:19:31.000 date on which John had registered the vehicle. From further 0:19:31.119 --> 0:19:35.639 checks done with the RTA, Glenn subsequently discovered that the 0:19:35.680 --> 0:19:41.680 registration of John's Ford Falcon did occur on Monday May seventeen. However, 0:19:41.960 --> 0:19:46.160 this doesn't change much. There was ample time for John 0:19:46.240 --> 0:19:49.240 to drive from Jenny Mason's house to the house at 0:19:49.280 --> 0:19:53.639 Illawan do whatever he needed to do, then drive to 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:58.320 the RTA at Miranda in the afternoon, pay to register 0:19:58.400 --> 0:20:01.520 the car, and then turn to get the children from 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.760 Jenny Mason's house to go to Michelle and Andy's house. 0:20:05.840 --> 0:20:09.159 John did not disclose to Andy and Michelle that he 0:20:09.240 --> 0:20:12.240 had taken the children to his ex wife's house, where 0:20:12.280 --> 0:20:16.240 they had been for several hours. John did tell Michelle 0:20:16.240 --> 0:20:19.880 that he had got the car registered that day. Glen 0:20:19.880 --> 0:20:23.560 Taylor told me that in the nineteen ninety eight recorded 0:20:23.600 --> 0:20:26.840 interview that he did with John Winfield, the person of 0:20:26.880 --> 0:20:30.920 interest was very vague about his movements on that Monday, 0:20:31.840 --> 0:20:34.840 John failed to mention dropping the kids off at his 0:20:34.960 --> 0:20:40.359 ex wife's house. Glenn said that probably because of that vagueness, 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:44.520 Glenn didn't press John hard in the interview about everything 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.680 that he did that Monday. Glenn told me, however, that 0:20:48.760 --> 0:20:52.000 he accepts John was telling the truth about the Ford 0:20:52.080 --> 0:20:57.719 Falcons registration that day. Glenn is now deeply suspicious about 0:20:57.760 --> 0:21:02.560 the property at Illawong. Just before driving away from the 0:21:02.640 --> 0:21:07.080 remarkable house overlooking Gunner Matta Bay being renovated by Glenn 0:21:07.080 --> 0:21:10.800 Webster in the Shire, the builder answered a further question 0:21:11.000 --> 0:21:14.760 about John being left at Illawong to work alone. 0:21:15.720 --> 0:21:18.720 I would set any up, see him in the morning, make. 0:21:18.640 --> 0:21:21.000 Sure he's right gay And so he'd worked a line 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:23.600 and after he'd set it up, Yeah, got it. 0:21:23.880 --> 0:21:26.080 Yeah, and that's pretty much if he's in the job. 0:21:26.320 --> 0:21:28.000 Yeah, probably soon he's temper round t. 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:30.040 Yeah, he liked boon by himself. 0:21:30.720 --> 0:21:31.359 Yeah, I see ye. 0:21:31.720 --> 0:21:34.440 Thanks for clarifying that. See you guys to describe. 0:21:36.880 --> 0:21:40.720 It made me wonder why if John needed to go 0:21:40.760 --> 0:21:44.080 to Illowong to just lay some bricks before stopping by 0:21:44.320 --> 0:21:47.679 in Miranda to register the car, did he need to 0:21:47.800 --> 0:21:50.920 make an unusual detour to his ex wife's house to 0:21:51.040 --> 0:21:55.200 leave his two girls there for several hours. Why couldn't 0:21:55.200 --> 0:21:58.160 he have grabbed the girls some takeaway food and drink 0:21:58.200 --> 0:22:00.920 and then driven them with him to illawa On whether 0:22:00.960 --> 0:22:03.040 they could have read or slept in the car or 0:22:03.080 --> 0:22:06.560 played outside if he was determined to lay a few 0:22:06.640 --> 0:22:10.720 rows of bricks before going on to Miranda. Back in 0:22:10.760 --> 0:22:14.160 Andy's car, we talked about some of the angles arising 0:22:14.200 --> 0:22:16.360 from the conversation with Glenn Webster. 0:22:19.440 --> 0:22:20.680 What did you take from all that? 0:22:21.320 --> 0:22:21.760 She showed? 0:22:21.800 --> 0:22:27.200 The garage is pretty much hard on deck, so he thinks. 0:22:25.960 --> 0:22:28.159 Any possibility of quickly stashing a body. 0:22:28.240 --> 0:22:30.720 He thinks it to be on the west side of 0:22:30.760 --> 0:22:33.560 the porch and towards the back because it's elevated. 0:22:33.760 --> 0:22:34.879 What do you think of that theory? 0:22:35.520 --> 0:22:37.280 If she was going to be put under a slab 0:22:37.359 --> 0:22:40.560 boy and then that sounds like the place. 0:22:41.400 --> 0:22:44.680 But I'm also thinking by that stage, by the time 0:22:44.720 --> 0:22:46.960 he would have got there, she would have full well 0:22:47.000 --> 0:22:50.159 been in rigging mortis. Depending on how he put it 0:22:50.240 --> 0:22:54.000 into the car. I am quite confident she would be stuck. 0:22:53.680 --> 0:22:54.440 In that position. 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:58.960 Someone can't physically larry completely across a boot. 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:02.399 Then she would have been like that, with possibly her 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:03.400 legs tucked up a. 0:23:03.359 --> 0:23:05.960 Bit right, you say, riga mortis set in and you're 0:23:06.000 --> 0:23:07.080 rather person on their back. 0:23:07.160 --> 0:23:09.720 You're picking them up like you can carry a small child, 0:23:09.840 --> 0:23:11.479