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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromwe contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by Me Headley Thomas and The Australian. Goodbye every week.

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Speaker 2: Okay mate, hell are we Maddy?

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Speaker 3: I'll take you my down to born that have been

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Speaker 3: quieted out there.

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Speaker 1: It has been thirty one and a half years since

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Speaker 1: Glen Webster built his own home in a place called Illiwong.

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Speaker 1: Glenn and his wife had a young family. Back then,

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Speaker 1: Illiwong was a new estate. It had started to see

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Speaker 1: solid family homes rising out of the bushland. The nearby

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Speaker 1: Georges River and Warnora River provided easy access for boaties,

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Speaker 1: but it is a fair drive west from the beaches

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Speaker 1: of Cronulla in the Shire to get there. We met

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Speaker 1: Glen Webster at a newer, much larger house a short

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Speaker 1: distance from Shelley Beach south of Crenulla. Glenn and his

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Speaker 1: team of tradees had been doing a major renovation of

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Speaker 1: an impressive pile perched high above gunner Matta Bay and

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Speaker 1: Port Hacking a property. App estimated that you wouldn't get

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Speaker 1: much change out of twenty million dollars for this place,

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Speaker 1: and that's before the costly reno. Building residential and kimmercial

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Speaker 1: properties in the Shire has been Glenn's passion for more

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Speaker 1: than forty years. It's how he met John.

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Speaker 3: Still know like been on the tools, Yeah, I must have.

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Speaker 3: It's this point thing isn't just coordinate it all?

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Speaker 1: Before visiting Glenn on the job, I read his police

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Speaker 1: statement again. It dated September twenty one, nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 1: He was still living at that time in the house

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Speaker 1: in Illawang which John had helped build back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety three. Glenn's statement from twenty six years ago disclosed

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Speaker 1: that he was working as a carpenter in nineteen eighty

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Speaker 1: seven when he and John met. They had a mutual

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Speaker 1: friend called John mcmonagall, who was also mates with John

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Speaker 1: Winfield's brother Peter. Before John Winfield did the brick laying

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Speaker 1: at Glenn's house at Illawong, he helped build Glenn's first

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Speaker 1: family home at Menai. In Glenn's police statement, he recalled

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Speaker 1: that he had met on three or four occasions, but

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Speaker 1: he had never been to their home and he said

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Speaker 1: John lived a very private life. Have you had any

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Speaker 1: contact with police recently? They haven't conducted. When did your

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Speaker 1: last spoke to.

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Speaker 3: Him, last time went at Coral at Police station.

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Speaker 1: So your original statement was ninety eight, But then that

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Speaker 1: must have been during the review by George Radmill.

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Speaker 4: What ye was that two thousand and eight, nine ten.

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Speaker 5: That you've probably about year heap be about right then, So.

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Speaker 1: I thought they might have reached out in the recent review. Okay.

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Speaker 1: Glenn led us down many steps to some outdoor seating

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Speaker 1: beside the water. Over the decades he has built dozens

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Speaker 1: and dozens of houses, including several for his own family.

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Speaker 1: He cast his mind back to the home at Illawong

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Speaker 1: and John Winfield's connection to it.

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Speaker 3: John started the brick work there.

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Speaker 1: What we were looking at were some documents from the

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Speaker 1: council showing the timing of inspections and the sign off

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Speaker 1: of some of the details around the garage slab and

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Speaker 1: the patio slab.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: What it showed is that on the Thursday, the thirteenth

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Speaker 1: of May, the council had approved for pouring, but it

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Speaker 1: was still awaiting that poor I've heard from somebody who

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Speaker 1: spoke to John on the Monday the seventeenth of May.

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Speaker 4: And this person said to John, what are you doing

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Speaker 4: back here?

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Speaker 1: Like what's going on? Why are you in such a rush?

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Speaker 1: Blah blah blah. He just come back from Balan and

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Speaker 1: he said, oh, I've got to go. There's a concrete Paul.

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Speaker 1: So you get the inspection document giving you the green

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Speaker 1: tick to do something on the Thursday the thirteenth.

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Speaker 4: This person was saying.

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Speaker 1: On the Monday the seventeenth of May, John tells someone,

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Speaker 1: I'm back because there's a concrete polm going to be

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Speaker 1: here for a poor. So that's indicating that the poor

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Speaker 1: hasn't occurred on the weekend.

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Speaker 4: Just gone. It's still ahead of you. Does that work

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Speaker 4: for you.

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Speaker 2: Have a year?

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Speaker 6: I would have thought personally, I would have probably done

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Speaker 6: it on the weekend because I was working.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I could have done it.

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Speaker 7: Would they have come out and poured it on a

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Speaker 7: weekend on a Saturday. I'm trying to think she did

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Speaker 7: my concreting back then. Contractors probably could have came out

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Speaker 7: and done it. Yeah, yeah, okay, we just all that out.

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Speaker 1: We don't have a document. I remember you saying you

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Speaker 1: might be able to find one, but there was nothing.

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Speaker 6: If you went for some pos and stuff and I

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Speaker 6: didn't really have that much it, Well, I did find

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Speaker 6: something but there's no dates on the poet.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, thanks for looking. I really appreciate it.

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Speaker 3: I had to look prior over it then a bit

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Speaker 3: of a dig last night.

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Speaker 1: It's amazing that there are documents still around after three decades.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 4: Correct.

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Speaker 2: There was a lady that's worked at the council for

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Speaker 2: twenty five years and she runs the Scout facility or

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Speaker 2: the old Scout hall, it's now the men's shed. And

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Speaker 2: I know her through my involvement with Lily Pilly clubhouse,

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Speaker 2: when I rang the council and rang her and explained

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Speaker 2: to who I was, and then she said, yeah, yah, yeah.

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Speaker 2: She was able to track down the records because she'd

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Speaker 2: been there for so long she cold to even just

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Speaker 2: rattle straight off the top of her head.

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Speaker 5: The four inspectors from back.

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Speaker 1: Then, Glenn with that darage slab poor Andy and I

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Speaker 1: were talking about that with Maddie, just thinking about the

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Speaker 1: logistics of that, and obviously we're looking at whether it's

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Speaker 1: possible that Bromin's body was put under the rio on

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Speaker 1: the Monday and then the poor possibly occurred the next day.

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Speaker 1: If what John told the source who spoke to me

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Speaker 1: is accurate, as I understand that building site was kind

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Speaker 1: of empty unless John was there with you helping him.

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Speaker 3: Correct.

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Speaker 6: I used to go there in the mornings and go

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Speaker 6: back of there in the afternoons.

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Speaker 1: So who would have been there if John were not there?

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Speaker 1: Just John, nobody else. So he's to set our in

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Speaker 1: cup for the day. Any would work and just labor

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Speaker 1: for himself. Yeah, yeah, then I'd go back in the

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Speaker 1: afternoon start again. And what sort of activity human activity.

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Speaker 4: Was around that site around that time?

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Speaker 3: Quite a big block of lane.

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Speaker 6: It was subdivided into about three or four blocks, and

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Speaker 6: I think I was the first time to be built there.

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Speaker 4: So it would have been quiet, yeah what I thought.

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Speaker 1: So, Yeah, just thinking about the logistics of that with

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Speaker 1: the sort of theory that we've been discussing.

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Speaker 5: Is it possible?

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Speaker 6: Probably unlikely the nature of the material out there, It's

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Speaker 6: not like it's sand.

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Speaker 1: Dealing with the slab first, because if that's what John's

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Speaker 1: rushed back for and that's what he's talked about someone

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Speaker 1: that's what's on his mind. Why is it unlikely in

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Speaker 1: your mind for the slab for the gap.

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Speaker 6: It's sandstone and rock and it's a hard material.

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Speaker 1: When I was talking to Andy about this before the

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Speaker 1: way he explained it was you would take the steel

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Speaker 1: mesh off, take the plastic off, dig a hole, and

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Speaker 1: he thought it was probably easy to dig, as it

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Speaker 1: would have been phil.

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Speaker 3: No, it wasn't.

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Speaker 4: No, it wasn't easy to dig.

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Speaker 1: So you're saying the ground was tough ground to dig in.

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Speaker 1: Every building site is different. Achieving a perfectly even level

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Speaker 1: for a concrete slab often means the introduction of phil,

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Speaker 1: dirt that has been brought in to complement the natural ground.

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Speaker 1: The natural ground is always harder to dig, but the

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Speaker 1: phil is another story. It's relatively easy to put your

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Speaker 1: pick and shovel into. There was a front patio as

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Speaker 1: well that also took a concrete pour, same problem.

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Speaker 6: In your mind, that one was probably a lot deeper,

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Speaker 6: So that one was a billy that would have been

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Speaker 6: like fill in there, right.

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Speaker 5: The porch was back towards the left hands right.

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Speaker 4: In your memory.

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Speaker 1: Did the poor for that patio occur at the same

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Speaker 1: time as.

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Speaker 3: The garage, Yes, that would have happened the same time.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was signed off at the same time. Why

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Speaker 4: would John have been needed for the poor.

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Speaker 6: I would have thought he would be just down there

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Speaker 6: carrying on bricklaying.

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Speaker 4: So you didn't necessarily need him for the poor.

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Speaker 3: He was purely there to lay bricks.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder why he's saying to someone, I've got

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Speaker 1: to be back. There's a paw as a concrete Paul.

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Speaker 1: Why is John making such an effort and using the

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Speaker 1: poor as the explanation. But the other option that you've raised, Glenn,

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Speaker 1: is this raised area and that's at the back of

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Speaker 1: the house. Is that right correct? Can you just explain

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Speaker 1: that what's in that debris pile?

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Speaker 6: What's there timidus bricks, dirt and then it's slab at

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Speaker 6: the top.

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Speaker 1: And the documents that Andy got from the council with

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Speaker 1: Maddie's help, shows that the concrete was poured there sometime

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Speaker 1: in August.

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Speaker 8: That would have been the last one thing we were

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Speaker 8: wondering is well, doesn't it introduce a lot more risk

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Speaker 8: if you're trying to conceal a body on a building

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Speaker 8: site and you come back the day before a poor,

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Speaker 8: but you don't put the body where the poor is

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Speaker 8: going to be.

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Speaker 4: You put it out the back where there's a debris pile.

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Speaker 1: You don't know when there's going to be a poor there,

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Speaker 1: and it ends up being another three months away, because

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Speaker 1: you were talking Maddie about the risk of animal activity.

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Speaker 9: Yeah, and the smell of decomposition animals would be very

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Speaker 9: very prevalent in the area.

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Speaker 3: In sects. Maybe your answers under a fund for ender.

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Speaker 2: We've got the cover sheet of the file. It shows

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Speaker 2: all the dates and all the information.

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Speaker 5: Question regarding the raised patio.

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Speaker 9: How easy would it be to get a body into

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Speaker 9: that kind of area, Like was it easily accessible?

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Speaker 5: John put it back the dar up right to the corner.

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Speaker 1: It must be a bit of a headspin for you, Glenn,

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Speaker 1: this whole saga, knowing John as you did back in.

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Speaker 6: The day, it is a bit. I never had a

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Speaker 6: problem with John Patrol. Yeah, he played his cards very

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Speaker 6: close to his chest. We always got on just his mates.

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Speaker 1: And he was a very good tradesman, wasn't Here's a tradesman, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: very neat and tidy.

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Speaker 6: YEA three my houses, the last one in two thousand

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Speaker 6: and two.

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Speaker 4: Have you heard from him recently?

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Speaker 3: Probably two and ten. Last time I've ever talked to him.

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Speaker 4: Do you remember talking to him about brommin or what happened?

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Speaker 3: No, I never ever brought it down.

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Speaker 10: I've got another place to mate that he's pretty close

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Speaker 10: to only pumped into him last week or so. He's

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Speaker 10: known him a lot longer than me and is only

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Speaker 10: just finding out stuff that he evin knew about.

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Speaker 1: Do you remember when John was leaving the rush back

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Speaker 1: to Balana and we know he flew up on the Sunday,

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Speaker 1: Do you recall what he said to you or conversation.

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Speaker 4: Before he left or yeah?

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Speaker 3: Nothing sort of. There was no red flag for me.

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Speaker 5: He actually turned back up on a Monday.

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Speaker 2: Michelle was looking after the girls and he went to

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Speaker 2: work that first week.

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Speaker 1: John comes back on the Monday the seventeenth of May.

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Speaker 1: And who was brick laying for Glenn until John leaves again?

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Speaker 2: I believe it was still John because he was leading

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Speaker 2: my place and going to work and then coming back

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Speaker 2: and having dinner with the.

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Speaker 5: Kids and us.

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Speaker 3: John was downing person there.

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Speaker 2: So he probably was working at Glenn's for just that

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Speaker 2: week he was at our place. And then finally when

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Speaker 2: I pressured him to get the girls back home and

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Speaker 2: get him in school and don't report from and missing,

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Speaker 2: is when he's told Glenn, I thought, I can't finish

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Speaker 2: the house, but I've got to go and going home,

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Speaker 2: you said, right off he went.

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Speaker 11: So that it makes sense he would have been there

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Speaker 11: during the concrete for that first week.

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Speaker 5: Still work it.

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Speaker 11: He goes back, he's looking after the girls. The girls

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Speaker 11: have been put back into school. That's when Glenn is

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Speaker 11: getting another team to finish the brick clans the house

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Speaker 11: good house to live in?

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Speaker 1: Mate.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, I.

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Speaker 4: Mean it's not a nice thought. How do you feel

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Speaker 4: about that?

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Speaker 6: You planned the seed and you start thinking about possibilities.

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Speaker 4: I guess yeah, do you think it's possible.

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Speaker 3: I don't think anything's possible.

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Speaker 4: Do you know who lives there now? Now that.

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Speaker 1: I asked Glenn whether he was asked by detectives to

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Speaker 1: describe or comment on the Illawong building site when he

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Speaker 1: spoke to the police some fifteen years ago during the

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Speaker 1: cold case review by the then Detective Inspector George Radmore,

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Speaker 1: Not at all, Glenn Webster replied. He said that the

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Speaker 1: angle was not mentioned. Andy confirmed something that was bugging

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Speaker 1: him for reverse charge long distance telephone calls from a

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Speaker 1: home in the Shire to Broman's flat in Byron Street

259
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Speaker 1: in the four weeks before her disappearance, and the total

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Speaker 1: duration was forty eight minutes. We established that those calls

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Speaker 1: were made from a property which Glenn and his wife

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Speaker 1: were renting at the time. John would stay over there

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Speaker 1: while he was bricklaying for the Websters. One call on

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Speaker 1: April eighteen went for almost half an hour. The last

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Speaker 1: reverse charge call was May eighth at eight fifteen pm,

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Speaker 1: and it went for nine minutes. Before we left Glenn

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Speaker 1: to his work, he and Andy stood together for photographs.

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Speaker 1: Just take your classes off, mate, thanks back up at

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Speaker 1: street level. I tried to put the known events of

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Speaker 1: Monday May seventeen into a chronological order. These are the

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Speaker 1: events about which I'm confident from documents and police statements.

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Speaker 1: Sometime that Monday morning, John arrived with the two girls

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Speaker 1: in the Shire south of Sydney in the family Ford Falcon,

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Speaker 1: its registration had lapsed. He went to a house in

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Speaker 1: the shire, knocked on the door and asked a woman

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Speaker 1: he had never met, the mother in law of John's

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Speaker 1: first wife, Jenny, and he asked that older woman to

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Speaker 1: look after Lauren and Crystal for the day. Joan Mason

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Speaker 1: said the girls were in pajamas. In nineteen ninety eight,

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Speaker 1: Joan Mason told police that John had said to her

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Speaker 1: he needed some temporary child minding help as he had

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Speaker 1: to do a very big job. It was extremely strange

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Speaker 1: behavior on John's part in my view. The two girls

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Speaker 1: did not know Joan Mason from a bar of soap.

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Speaker 1: They had probably met Brad's new wife, Jenny, because she'd

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Speaker 1: become friends with Bromwin, but there would have been a

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Speaker 1: very limited connection and Jenny was out shopping. John and

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Speaker 1: Jenny had not been together four years. As you have

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Speaker 1: heard from previous episodes, theirs was a very sad and

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Speaker 1: at times toxic relationship. It produced their daughter, Jody, who

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Speaker 1: was raised by John's parents until Bromwin and John got together.

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Speaker 1: Michelle and Andy Reid, the aunt and uncle of Lauren

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Speaker 1: and Cristel, also lived near by in the Shire. The

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Speaker 1: Reed's house should have been the first stop for John

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Speaker 1: when he needed somewhere to leave the girls for a

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Speaker 1: few hours. That's the first red flag indicating something else

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Speaker 1: was possibly going on with John on that Monday. But

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Speaker 1: what happened next? Where did John go after leaving the

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Speaker 1: girls at Jenny Mason's house with her mother in law Joan.

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Speaker 1: Jenny was very surprised when she got home from shopping

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Speaker 1: to see Bromwin's daughters playing in the backyard. What was

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00:17:08,800 --> 00:17:12,399
Speaker 1: John doing prior to his return in the afternoon to

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Speaker 1: pick up the girls to then go to Michelle and

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Speaker 1: Andy's house for the first time that day. As you

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00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,200
Speaker 1: have heard, John had woken the girls up in Lennox's head,

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Speaker 1: put some clothes into pillowcases and driven away from a

307
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Speaker 1: messy house on Sandstone Crescent very late the night before,

308
00:17:31,680 --> 00:17:35,200
Speaker 1: then driven an unregistered car through the night and most

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Speaker 1: of the morning to the Shire. The evidence of what

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Speaker 1: lawyers call flight is compelling. John offered no real explanation

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Speaker 1: for his unusual urgency when interviewed by the detective Sergeant

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00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:53,840
Speaker 1: Glen Taylor in August nineteen ninety eight, but John did

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Speaker 1: tell Glen Taylor in that interview that John had registered

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Speaker 1: the Ford Falcon on the afternoon of Monday May at

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Speaker 1: a place called Miranda in the Shire. Miranda is where

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Speaker 1: the premises of RTA for the registration of cars was situated.

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Speaker 1: But when the detective checked John's credit card statement in

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Speaker 1: the late nineteen nineties, it did not show a credit

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00:18:18,960 --> 00:18:23,920
Speaker 1: card charge for registration on Monday May seventeen. The May

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three Commonwealth Bank credit card statement for John

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Speaker 1: Winfield shows a charge on May twenty four of two

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Speaker 1: hundred and twenty two dollars, and that's one week after

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Speaker 1: John's arrival in the shire. As a result of this,

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Speaker 1: Glen Taylor told me that he strongly suspected John had

325
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Speaker 1: lied about registering the car at Miranda on May seventeen.

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Speaker 1: The detective's formal signed police statement in nineteen ninety nine

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00:18:54,080 --> 00:18:58,640
Speaker 1: makes this point about the date discrepancy, but dates on

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00:18:58,800 --> 00:19:03,040
Speaker 1: credit card statement in the nineteen nineties did not necessarily

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00:19:03,160 --> 00:19:06,960
Speaker 1: match the dates of the actual purchases. There was a

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Speaker 1: lag sometimes of several days. The old fashioned machines which

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00:19:12,200 --> 00:19:15,000
Speaker 1: were used when we bought things on our credit cards

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00:19:15,000 --> 00:19:19,320
Speaker 1: were operated manually. They were not electronically connected to bank

333
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:23,320
Speaker 1: accounts like they are today. I'm grateful to Glenn for

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00:19:23,400 --> 00:19:26,879
Speaker 1: letting me know that he was innocently mistaken about the

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00:19:27,000 --> 00:19:31,000
Speaker 1: date on which John had registered the vehicle. From further

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00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:35,639
Speaker 1: checks done with the RTA, Glenn subsequently discovered that the

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00:19:35,680 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 1: registration of John's Ford Falcon did occur on Monday May seventeen. However,

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00:19:41,960 --> 00:19:46,160
Speaker 1: this doesn't change much. There was ample time for John

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Speaker 1: to drive from Jenny Mason's house to the house at

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Speaker 1: Illawan do whatever he needed to do, then drive to

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00:19:53,680 --> 00:19:58,320
Speaker 1: the RTA at Miranda in the afternoon, pay to register

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00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: the car, and then turn to get the children from

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Speaker 1: Jenny Mason's house to go to Michelle and Andy's house.

344
00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,159
Speaker 1: John did not disclose to Andy and Michelle that he

345
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Speaker 1: had taken the children to his ex wife's house, where

346
00:20:12,280 --> 00:20:16,240
Speaker 1: they had been for several hours. John did tell Michelle

347
00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:19,880
Speaker 1: that he had got the car registered that day. Glen

348
00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,560
Speaker 1: Taylor told me that in the nineteen ninety eight recorded

349
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Speaker 1: interview that he did with John Winfield, the person of

350
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Speaker 1: interest was very vague about his movements on that Monday,

351
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Speaker 1: John failed to mention dropping the kids off at his

352
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Speaker 1: ex wife's house. Glenn said that probably because of that vagueness,

353
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Speaker 1: Glenn didn't press John hard in the interview about everything

354
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Speaker 1: that he did that Monday. Glenn told me, however, that

355
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Speaker 1: he accepts John was telling the truth about the Ford

356
00:20:52,080 --> 00:20:57,719
Speaker 1: Falcons registration that day. Glenn is now deeply suspicious about

357
00:20:57,760 --> 00:21:02,560
Speaker 1: the property at Illawong. Just before driving away from the

358
00:21:02,640 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: remarkable house overlooking Gunner Matta Bay being renovated by Glenn

359
00:21:07,080 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 1: Webster in the Shire, the builder answered a further question

360
00:21:11,000 --> 00:21:14,760
Speaker 1: about John being left at Illawong to work alone.

361
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Speaker 3: I would set any up, see him in the morning, make.

362
00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:21,000
Speaker 11: Sure he's right gay And so he'd worked a line

363
00:21:21,040 --> 00:21:23,600
Speaker 11: and after he'd set it up, Yeah, got it.

364
00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:26,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's pretty much if he's in the job.

365
00:21:26,320 --> 00:21:28,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, probably soon he's temper round t.

366
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Speaker 4: Yeah, he liked boon by himself.

367
00:21:30,720 --> 00:21:31,359
Speaker 5: Yeah, I see ye.

368
00:21:31,720 --> 00:21:34,440
Speaker 4: Thanks for clarifying that. See you guys to describe.

369
00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:40,720
Speaker 1: It made me wonder why if John needed to go

370
00:21:40,760 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 1: to Illowong to just lay some bricks before stopping by

371
00:21:44,320 --> 00:21:47,679
Speaker 1: in Miranda to register the car, did he need to

372
00:21:47,800 --> 00:21:50,920
Speaker 1: make an unusual detour to his ex wife's house to

373
00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 1: leave his two girls there for several hours. Why couldn't

374
00:21:55,200 --> 00:21:58,160
Speaker 1: he have grabbed the girls some takeaway food and drink

375
00:21:58,200 --> 00:22:00,920
Speaker 1: and then driven them with him to illawa On whether

376
00:22:00,960 --> 00:22:03,040
Speaker 1: they could have read or slept in the car or

377
00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:06,560
Speaker 1: played outside if he was determined to lay a few

378
00:22:06,640 --> 00:22:10,720
Speaker 1: rows of bricks before going on to Miranda. Back in

379
00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,160
Speaker 1: Andy's car, we talked about some of the angles arising

380
00:22:14,200 --> 00:22:16,360
Speaker 1: from the conversation with Glenn Webster.

381
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Speaker 4: What did you take from all that?

382
00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:21,760
Speaker 5: She showed?

383
00:22:21,800 --> 00:22:27,200
Speaker 2: The garage is pretty much hard on deck, so he thinks.

384
00:22:25,960 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 5: Any possibility of quickly stashing a body.

385
00:22:28,240 --> 00:22:30,720
Speaker 2: He thinks it to be on the west side of

386
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 2: the porch and towards the back because it's elevated.

387
00:22:33,760 --> 00:22:34,879
Speaker 5: What do you think of that theory?

388
00:22:35,520 --> 00:22:37,280
Speaker 2: If she was going to be put under a slab

389
00:22:37,359 --> 00:22:40,560
Speaker 2: boy and then that sounds like the place.

390
00:22:41,400 --> 00:22:44,680
Speaker 9: But I'm also thinking by that stage, by the time

391
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:46,960
Speaker 9: he would have got there, she would have full well

392
00:22:47,000 --> 00:22:50,159
Speaker 9: been in rigging mortis. Depending on how he put it

393
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 9: into the car. I am quite confident she would be stuck.

394
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:54,440
Speaker 5: In that position.

395
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Speaker 2: Someone can't physically larry completely across a boot.

396
00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:02,399
Speaker 5: Then she would have been like that, with possibly her

397
00:23:02,520 --> 00:23:03,400
Speaker 5: legs tucked up a.

398
00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:05,960
Speaker 2: Bit right, you say, riga mortis set in and you're

399
00:23:06,000 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 2: rather person on their back.

400
00:23:07,160 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 5: You're picking them up like you can carry a small child,

401
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:11,479
Speaker 5: your arms tucked under the legs.

402
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,119
Speaker 2: You've got your hand under their back and under their

403
00:23:14,200 --> 00:23:15,800
Speaker 2: armpit type thing, and you lift them up.

404
00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,760
Speaker 5: Where you go. The porch might be.

405
00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:23,199
Speaker 2: Two meters step or two point four meters streep, maybe

406
00:23:23,480 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: front to back, and it's probably six meters wide.

407
00:23:26,720 --> 00:23:29,000
Speaker 4: There's plenty of room, plenty of plenty of root.

408
00:23:29,119 --> 00:23:32,639
Speaker 2: Two point two meter five five point eight meters void.

409
00:23:32,800 --> 00:24:00,600
Speaker 1: Underneath that slad, Andy and his sister Kim Rushall are

410
00:24:00,800 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: very different. Andy speaks clinically and without apparent emotion or

411
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,720
Speaker 1: effect about a possible crude burial place for his older

412
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: sister Bronwyn. It is as if he is on a

413
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 1: mission and must keep a brave face, not let the

414
00:24:16,640 --> 00:24:20,680
Speaker 1: mask slip, lest his true feelings slow his bid to

415
00:24:20,760 --> 00:24:26,000
Speaker 1: achieve justice for Bromwin. Sometimes it is confronting when Andy

416
00:24:26,119 --> 00:24:29,200
Speaker 1: is a matter of factly talking about how his sister's

417
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:33,240
Speaker 1: body might have been handled. But while Andy is resolute,

418
00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: he is not without feeling. I have seen and heard

419
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: him choke back tears. On those occasions, Andy has been

420
00:24:40,640 --> 00:24:45,320
Speaker 1: talking about his two mothers, Jennifer, who raised him and Barbara,

421
00:24:45,520 --> 00:24:49,400
Speaker 1: who gave birth to him. Barbara and her legacy hover

422
00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:54,560
Speaker 1: over this case. Her plight, her mental illness almost certainly

423
00:24:54,680 --> 00:25:00,439
Speaker 1: influenced early investigations into Bromwin's disappearance. Kim mar She'll, on

424
00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,159
Speaker 1: the other hand, is a lot more open about herself

425
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: and her feelings and emotions. Perhaps that's another key factor

426
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:12,520
Speaker 1: in their disagreements. But Andy and Kim have been incredibly

427
00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 1: helpful in different ways. They haven't always agreed with what

428
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: the other has told me, but they have put their

429
00:25:19,280 --> 00:25:23,840
Speaker 1: differences aside to support the podcast series and me. They

430
00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,000
Speaker 1: have respected my independence and need to reflect the recollections

431
00:25:28,040 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 1: and views of a range of people. When this investigation

432
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,439
Speaker 1: was in its infancy, Kim told me something interesting about

433
00:25:36,520 --> 00:25:40,119
Speaker 1: John Winfield's recent behavior on the telephone.

434
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:45,280
Speaker 11: You told me last night about what Crystal has told

435
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 11: you she must do.

436
00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 4: Is that something that you can talk about.

437
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,560
Speaker 12: My answer to that question is that I have an

438
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:59,639
Speaker 12: obligation to actually stay focused on what I have always

439
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 12: said out to do, and I've made it very clear upfront,

440
00:26:03,560 --> 00:26:08,719
Speaker 12: very early on to every person, family or other. So

441
00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:11,800
Speaker 12: I will actually talk about.

442
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:13,960
Speaker 4: That, Okay, all right.

443
00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:23,359
Speaker 12: Crystal was reiterating again John stand on how he would

444
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:27,920
Speaker 12: always stick to his story and that story hasn't changed.

445
00:26:28,520 --> 00:26:33,359
Speaker 12: Crystal informed me that Jonathan had given her a set

446
00:26:33,400 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 12: of instructions as to how she was to continue having

447
00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:42,280
Speaker 12: any communications with him, and that caused alarm bells for me,

448
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:48,120
Speaker 12: being that he said that she was not to use

449
00:26:48,200 --> 00:26:52,359
Speaker 12: her phone that she uses on a daily basis, that

450
00:26:52,400 --> 00:26:57,919
Speaker 12: she was only to call him from a separate external phone,

451
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,240
Speaker 12: and he suggested that she just a separate phone, and

452
00:27:02,320 --> 00:27:07,080
Speaker 12: that he had then given her a new private number

453
00:27:07,400 --> 00:27:10,240
Speaker 12: that he had obtained and that was the only way

454
00:27:10,560 --> 00:27:14,359
Speaker 12: she was to ever contact him in the future. He

455
00:27:14,440 --> 00:27:18,399
Speaker 12: said the reason was because then the scammers wouldn't have

456
00:27:18,440 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 12: an ability to hack his personal details.

457
00:27:22,520 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: Kim made a prediction back.

458
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 12: Then, Crystal's heart will always continue to ache because she's

459
00:27:30,080 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 12: putting Lauren's relationship as a priority over actually finding out

460
00:27:37,320 --> 00:27:42,440
Speaker 12: the true answers of what happened to their mother. So

461
00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 12: she just really doesn't want to have anything to do

462
00:27:47,600 --> 00:27:52,920
Speaker 12: in relation to hearing about what happened to her mother.

463
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:57,160
Speaker 12: There's been several periods of time where she changes that opinion,

464
00:27:57,240 --> 00:28:02,200
Speaker 12: and that's what's confusing for me. I get the indications

465
00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:06,080
Speaker 12: that she wants to actually go forward with finding out

466
00:28:06,080 --> 00:28:11,440
Speaker 12: what happened, and then suddenly she reflects and she withdraws

467
00:28:11,520 --> 00:28:14,399
Speaker 12: from her desire to do that and shifts back to

468
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:20,520
Speaker 12: staying in a world where things will never be worked out,

469
00:28:21,160 --> 00:28:24,920
Speaker 12: never be solved, and it's such a struggle, and she

470
00:28:24,960 --> 00:28:27,160
Speaker 12: writes about it, we talk about it.

471
00:28:28,320 --> 00:28:33,640
Speaker 1: After twenty episodes, Crystal's position has become more fixed. Her

472
00:28:33,680 --> 00:28:36,919
Speaker 1: contacts with her uncle Andy and her Auntie Michelle have

473
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: become more strained and fewer. Their catch ups have stopped,

474
00:28:41,600 --> 00:28:44,640
Speaker 1: and it's partly because of what Crystal sees as an

475
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:47,480
Speaker 1: unfair targeting of John, her stepfather.

476
00:28:48,480 --> 00:28:51,400
Speaker 12: I always encourage her that she needs to have some

477
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 12: really good therapy to try and have an independent person

478
00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,160
Speaker 12: that she can work through with that there's always going

479
00:28:59,200 --> 00:29:02,560
Speaker 12: to be a degree of bias whoever she talks to

480
00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:07,160
Speaker 12: in the family, right I really feel for her. I

481
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:11,000
Speaker 12: am going to see this through and unfortunately, if I

482
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 12: end up having a fragmented family once again, which is

483
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:20,120
Speaker 12: what I started with, so be it. I don't actually

484
00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,720
Speaker 12: know right at this moment whether I will ever be

485
00:29:23,840 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 12: able to restore bonds with Andrew that I thought I

486
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:30,840
Speaker 12: had built, but now look like they're gone again.

487
00:29:32,160 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 4: Sorry about that, and that's the thing for Crystal.

488
00:29:36,040 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: Crystal's statement to the police in nineteen ninety eight is

489
00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: a powerful and distressing document. She was fifteen at the

490
00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: time and had walked into the Ballina police station after

491
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 1: school one day to try to help police find her mum.

492
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:54,720
Speaker 1: Crystal's strength that day rings loudly through the paragraphs of

493
00:29:54,720 --> 00:29:59,560
Speaker 1: the statement, taken by the detective Glenn Taylor. Shortly before

494
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:03,040
Speaker 1: the release of this episode, one of Cristel's friends in

495
00:30:03,160 --> 00:30:07,000
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three, who lived near the house at Sandstone Crescent,

496
00:30:07,080 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 1: reached out. She was prompted to contact me by episode

497
00:30:10,960 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: nineteen and the analysis of the Winfield family's Ford Falcon

498
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 1: sed Ann, a former taxi which probably had a large

499
00:30:18,720 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: tank for liquefied petroleum gas in the boot. We wanted

500
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 1: to test hypothetically whether the car's boot would have had

501
00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,320
Speaker 1: room for Bromman too, given that there probably would have

502
00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,920
Speaker 1: been an LPG tank of up to one hundred liters

503
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:38,120
Speaker 1: capacity the taxi standard. I have talked at length to

504
00:30:38,200 --> 00:30:42,080
Speaker 1: the woman who has so recently come forward, Cristel's former friend.

505
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,959
Speaker 1: She has, however, requested anonymity, and she asked me to

506
00:30:47,160 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: omit some of the detailed information which she has provided,

507
00:30:51,000 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: as she does not want her identity to become widely known.

508
00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:58,360
Speaker 1: Here's what she told me. These are her words, it's

509
00:30:58,400 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 1: not her voice.

510
00:31:00,200 --> 00:31:03,280
Speaker 13: I grew up near the Winfield's house. Crystel is younger

511
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:05,120
Speaker 13: than me, but we were friends and went to the

512
00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,640
Speaker 13: same schools. We would hang out sometimes and played together.

513
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 13: Cristel had told me that herself and Lauren were not

514
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:13,760
Speaker 13: allowed to look in the boot of the car the

515
00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,160
Speaker 13: morning John rushed them to Sydney. I clearly remember her

516
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:20,040
Speaker 13: telling me she had heard her parents arguing that night

517
00:31:20,560 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 13: when she went to bed, and remembers John waking her

518
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 13: up early morning and telling her they were going to

519
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,480
Speaker 13: Sydney and throwing some clothes and things into pillowcases or

520
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 13: garbage bags. John was angry and they were not allowed

521
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 13: to look in the boot of the car. This was

522
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 13: always alarming to me. Whether or not Bron's body was

523
00:31:38,400 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 13: in the boot, her handbag or both, or something else

524
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:46,719
Speaker 13: possibly incriminating. I do not know this information, and whatever

525
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:49,400
Speaker 13: else I remembered was told to the police in two

526
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:52,680
Speaker 13: thousand and nine. When they called me one day, Cristel

527
00:31:52,760 --> 00:31:55,000
Speaker 13: told me John had been very angry with her when

528
00:31:55,040 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 13: the case reopened in nineteen ninety eight for going to

529
00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,000
Speaker 13: the police without her sister Jody, and she felt too

530
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:04,320
Speaker 13: uncomfortable to stay with him. I found this pressure from

531
00:32:04,400 --> 00:32:08,000
Speaker 13: John also to be quite alarming. When I visited the

532
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 13: Winfield's house, Crystal and Lauren were not allowed to play

533
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 13: inside the house, only in the garage. The garage was

534
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,200
Speaker 13: always tidy, not like the usual garage. The car was

535
00:32:18,240 --> 00:32:22,560
Speaker 13: never parked inside, only on the driveway, no oil stains, etc.

536
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:27,400
Speaker 13: John was intense and insistent about everything being neat, clean,

537
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:30,400
Speaker 13: and in its place. I recall one day he got

538
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:33,200
Speaker 13: aggravated at Crystal and Lauren eating ice blocks in the

539
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,880
Speaker 13: garage and one had dripped onto the concrete floor. I

540
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 13: remember his enraged reaction making them eat outside on the

541
00:32:40,520 --> 00:32:45,080
Speaker 13: grass instead. One day, John let Crystal inside the door

542
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:48,560
Speaker 13: connecting the garage to the house to retrieve something. On

543
00:32:48,600 --> 00:32:51,800
Speaker 13: this rare occasion, John told me I was allowed inside too.

544
00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 13: I was startled. What I'm allowed inside? Yes, of course

545
00:32:58,000 --> 00:33:00,200
Speaker 13: I found this very odd, as I had never been

546
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,720
Speaker 13: inside before. From memory, the door seemed to always have

547
00:33:03,800 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 13: been locked from inside the house, or at least it

548
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:09,560
Speaker 13: was always closed. The girls had to knock to get

549
00:33:09,600 --> 00:33:13,040
Speaker 13: John's attention if they needed anything. I was nervous entering

550
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 13: the house and immediately taken her back. At how neat

551
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 13: it was. The tiled floor sparkled, everything was in its place,

552
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:24,360
Speaker 13: a polished statue, possibly of a black panther. Everything white

553
00:33:24,400 --> 00:33:28,920
Speaker 13: and black, spotless, not a speck of dust. John sat

554
00:33:29,040 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 13: on the leather couch two seats up from his new girlfriend,

555
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,680
Speaker 13: as I followed Crystal to her room. I could not

556
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 13: remember seeing any toys, maybe a Teddy Bear on the bed,

557
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:42,080
Speaker 13: a large chest and cupboard. I was too scared to

558
00:33:42,080 --> 00:33:44,920
Speaker 13: step on the carpet. It was by far too neat.

559
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,040
Speaker 13: I always tried to remain open, mostly for the sake

560
00:33:49,080 --> 00:33:52,800
Speaker 13: of supporting Crystal. Surely the police would have found evidence

561
00:33:52,840 --> 00:33:55,760
Speaker 13: if he had murdered Bronwin. But as time went on

562
00:33:55,960 --> 00:33:58,680
Speaker 13: it was very clear the police work was incompetent, and

563
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:02,280
Speaker 13: we all knew something since it happened. Crystal was always

564
00:34:02,280 --> 00:34:04,480
Speaker 13: in a difficult position and she didn't want to lose

565
00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:06,959
Speaker 13: her sisters as well, particularly Lauren.

566
00:34:08,960 --> 00:34:12,160
Speaker 11: You'd never been to the house at Illawong until we

567
00:34:12,200 --> 00:34:15,320
Speaker 11: talked about it during the podcast in an earlier episode.

568
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:16,640
Speaker 1: Yeah.

569
00:34:16,680 --> 00:34:17,040
Speaker 4: Correct.

570
00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 2: Once I'd known the address, I went and had a

571
00:34:20,840 --> 00:34:21,440
Speaker 2: a snake.

572
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,560
Speaker 5: To drive by.

573
00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 4: And you didn't have contact with Glenn Webster either until recently.

574
00:34:27,719 --> 00:34:30,200
Speaker 5: Never ever really had any conversations or anything.

575
00:34:31,239 --> 00:34:33,480
Speaker 4: Have you found him in terms of cooperation?

576
00:34:33,880 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 8: Yeah?

577
00:34:34,200 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 5: Great.

578
00:34:34,680 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: He's been very open and very very helpful, very happy

579
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 2: to contribute any way you can.

580
00:34:45,480 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 4: Andy, We've just left Cronella's Street.

581
00:34:47,280 --> 00:34:50,680
Speaker 5: Where's the beach straight behind us? Do you want to

582
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:53,360
Speaker 5: say it.

583
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 4: Was Roman keen on the beach.

584
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:58,279
Speaker 2: Oh, she tacked the kids down.

585
00:34:58,280 --> 00:35:03,680
Speaker 5: You remember that phoe of my wedding. This is the church, oh,

586
00:35:04,040 --> 00:35:05,800
Speaker 5: where Michelle and myself got married.

587
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:10,800
Speaker 2: Then Gosford Streets in that photo in the photo with everyone.

588
00:35:10,680 --> 00:35:13,839
Speaker 1: Yeah, a block there.

589
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 2: It's when my son had his first unit and I

590
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:19,640
Speaker 2: did it all up, renovated and put himself a house

591
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 2: out of Dannet from Southron right around the boat harbor.

592
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:30,279
Speaker 5: I think it's yea clam beach, God's country, mate.

593
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:31,600
Speaker 4: I reconcile the beach.

594
00:35:32,320 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 5: I'll tell you that I know.

595
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 2: But they're still struggling to get sure. And curb mc

596
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:39,759
Speaker 2: gutters up there. Can you notice all the curb mc

597
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 2: gutters made.

598
00:35:40,880 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 1: What beach is this?

599
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:43,000
Speaker 5: That's all one.

600
00:35:42,800 --> 00:35:46,600
Speaker 2: Stretch of same that starts as South Cronella and then

601
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:48,080
Speaker 2: you have North Cronella.

602
00:35:48,200 --> 00:35:50,040
Speaker 5: And the wall. We call that the wall because there's

603
00:35:50,040 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 5: a big sea wall there.

604
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:52,640
Speaker 4: This is Alura.

605
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: Glenn Webster's name came up on the phone display on

606
00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:02,240
Speaker 1: the dashboard of Andy's car. Left Glenn just fifteen minutes earlier.

607
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:05,440
Speaker 3: Glenn Webstuff.

608
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:12,480
Speaker 14: Great, hey, mate, I just asked if they did have

609
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:13,880
Speaker 14: any records going back.

610
00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:14,279
Speaker 15: To that time.

611
00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:17,200
Speaker 8: I just thought, you know, you don't have any records.

612
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,360
Speaker 1: As we were driving Glenn back on the building site

613
00:36:21,440 --> 00:36:24,880
Speaker 1: had telephoned one of the longtime concrete reps on the

614
00:36:24,880 --> 00:36:28,680
Speaker 1: off chance there was still paperwork to show when exactly

615
00:36:29,080 --> 00:36:33,520
Speaker 1: the concrete poor occurred at Illawong in nineteen ninety three.

616
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:40,080
Speaker 5: Okay, so I wouldn't have any records of that far back. Yeah, okay, okay,

617
00:36:40,200 --> 00:36:43,399
Speaker 5: thanks for trying, mate, thank you, thank you. God.

618
00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,840
Speaker 1: That was good of him. Yeah, that's nice, And he

619
00:36:49,960 --> 00:36:53,040
Speaker 1: proudly pointed out some of the local landmarks that he

620
00:36:53,160 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 1: had built with his employer in Trek.

621
00:36:56,600 --> 00:37:00,399
Speaker 5: This is one of my jobs years ago, a shitty

622
00:37:00,440 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 5: little clubhouse.

623
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 2: I've demoed that whole building across to here where it

624
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: says club entry.

625
00:37:06,080 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 5: Does that mean demolished?

626
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:12,279
Speaker 1: But mate, I just looked at let's crooked straight as

627
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: to die in trick building.

628
00:37:14,440 --> 00:37:16,960
Speaker 2: Mate, this weekend there'll be packed. You won't get a

629
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 2: part hug. If it's warm, it'll be chockers.

630
00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:23,920
Speaker 4: This is where you grew up.

631
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:28,000
Speaker 2: And yeah, coming down the crown, I got a surfing

632
00:37:28,120 --> 00:37:31,840
Speaker 2: and kids are roll then new electric bogs. Mate, we

633
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,880
Speaker 2: have to do it hard bake round the pedal. Now

634
00:37:35,960 --> 00:37:37,880
Speaker 2: you want to go past the takeaway You want to

635
00:37:37,920 --> 00:37:39,480
Speaker 2: see Bron's little flat.

636
00:37:39,880 --> 00:37:44,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, but are you hungry?

637
00:37:45,920 --> 00:37:47,040
Speaker 5: That's Oak Park there.

638
00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: That used to be an old takeaway shop and that

639
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: was the flat, the flats on the back of the shopping.

640
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:53,319
Speaker 4: That's where Brown lived.

641
00:37:53,360 --> 00:37:59,839
Speaker 2: That's where Brian, John and Lauren and Crystal live.

642
00:38:00,840 --> 00:38:02,560
Speaker 5: That's the flat on the back of the shop, goes

643
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:03,719
Speaker 5: right across the back of the shop.

644
00:38:03,760 --> 00:38:07,160
Speaker 16: There's single level places there. Ye, it looks really small.

645
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,400
Speaker 16: It's not very big at all, mate, No, did you

646
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 16: see them there? That's where Lauren came home to from hospital.

647
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: And she was a baby because he used that type

648
00:38:17,120 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: from and used to have to do the bottles on

649
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: the stove and everything. And so I finally got the

650
00:38:21,640 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: shits for that after coming in sooner struggling away.

651
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:26,799
Speaker 5: So I bought her a microwave so she could make

652
00:38:26,880 --> 00:38:27,640
Speaker 5: Laurence bottles.

653
00:38:28,840 --> 00:38:32,120
Speaker 1: I remembered something that Andy and Michelle told me when

654
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,360
Speaker 1: we first started recording in their house at the start

655
00:38:35,400 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 1: of twenty twenty four.

656
00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 17: He was so proud of himself that he'd let her

657
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,840
Speaker 17: have the car, which was a ship box of taxi

658
00:38:42,840 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 17: that was worth probably four hundred dollars five hundred dollars

659
00:38:46,160 --> 00:38:48,719
Speaker 17: back then, if John spent one thousand dollars on a

660
00:38:48,800 --> 00:38:52,240
Speaker 17: vehicle that was over the top, he was very frugal.

661
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:57,319
Speaker 1: We looked from the street at the dilapidated extension to

662
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 1: a shop, and his mind went to the nineteen eighties

663
00:39:01,440 --> 00:39:03,920
Speaker 1: when John and Bromin were in what looked like a

664
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: blossoming relationship. Roman's family and friends, however, look back now

665
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:13,400
Speaker 1: and say John was too controlling from the start. Some

666
00:39:13,520 --> 00:39:16,280
Speaker 1: say they worried that it would not end well.

667
00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,719
Speaker 2: But it's a small flat, small little joined to be

668
00:39:20,760 --> 00:39:23,000
Speaker 2: living in in it. That's where Jody first moved in

669
00:39:23,040 --> 00:39:24,000
Speaker 2: with him.

670
00:39:24,440 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 5: Jody had her own.

671
00:39:25,360 --> 00:39:28,720
Speaker 2: Room, three little bedrooms in that joint.

672
00:39:29,920 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 1: God, it doesn't look like it.

673
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,839
Speaker 2: Nod that used to be a takeaway shop in.

674
00:39:33,760 --> 00:39:34,680
Speaker 5: The front of that really.

675
00:39:36,400 --> 00:39:38,960
Speaker 1: When Andy was out of his shot at his house

676
00:39:39,040 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: earlier that day, Michelle told me he had cried when

677
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,520
Speaker 1: he heard his system Melyssa's voice in episode eighteen. They

678
00:39:46,600 --> 00:39:49,160
Speaker 1: haven't been in contact for twenty years.

679
00:39:50,680 --> 00:39:53,120
Speaker 18: I think it's wonderful what Andrew has done. He has

680
00:39:53,200 --> 00:39:54,080
Speaker 18: been relentless.

681
00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 19: I admire everything that he's done in his efforts to

682
00:39:58,920 --> 00:39:59,760
Speaker 19: find our sister.

683
00:40:01,680 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: So much of that episode must have been difficult for

684
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: Andy to hear. It focused heavily on the police statement

685
00:40:08,920 --> 00:40:13,319
Speaker 1: of his mother, Barbara and her mental health struggles. The

686
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,200
Speaker 1: episode featured Andy's youngest sister, Kim, talking about Barbara's life

687
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 1: and Barbara's separation from her children, Bronwin and Andy for

688
00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:24,040
Speaker 1: a decade.

689
00:40:24,400 --> 00:40:26,960
Speaker 4: Do you think it might be easier to pretty connect

690
00:40:27,000 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 4: with Melissa?

691
00:40:29,000 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 2: Hopefully you may get some stage. I'd like to think

692
00:40:36,040 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 2: that she opened up and possibly breach an egg. It'd

693
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,560
Speaker 2: be fantastic. She knows where I am.

694
00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 5: I'm going to say, spot where we last sat down

695
00:40:49,120 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 5: and she was.

696
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:53,880
Speaker 2: On our back for anger and we were chatting away and.

697
00:40:52,920 --> 00:40:58,760
Speaker 14: How long ago was that? Oh five, so almost twenty years.

698
00:41:00,920 --> 00:41:04,839
Speaker 14: We don't need to do this, or we can do this.

699
00:41:05,040 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 11: If you want to say anything about your father to

700
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,319
Speaker 11: defend his reputation, your call.

701
00:41:12,040 --> 00:41:13,600
Speaker 4: I just wanted to give you the opportunity if you

702
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:13,960
Speaker 4: wanted to.

703
00:41:16,680 --> 00:41:23,640
Speaker 5: It does just bug me that you know they're trying

704
00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,200
Speaker 5: to or Kim's attempts to portray my.

705
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:32,920
Speaker 2: Father, you know, in the wrong light around what happened

706
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,879
Speaker 2: and how it unfolded. I don't think it's very fair

707
00:41:36,960 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: at all that he portrayed in the manner that any

708
00:41:41,880 --> 00:41:45,080
Speaker 2: locked Barb out of anywhere or anything like that happened,

709
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,239
Speaker 2: because that just wasn't the way it went down.

710
00:41:48,280 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 5: It wasn't the way it happened.

711
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:57,280
Speaker 1: You've heard Kim honoring her mum, Barbara, your mom, Barbara.

712
00:41:58,920 --> 00:42:01,520
Speaker 4: What do you say about Philip as a dad?

713
00:42:05,200 --> 00:42:05,839
Speaker 5: Dad was.

714
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,840
Speaker 2: Always there, especially for Brin, you know, like Melissa says,

715
00:42:12,239 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 2: you know, hearing her brought back a lot in that episode.

716
00:42:18,040 --> 00:42:21,000
Speaker 2: But Dad was her rock, He was her go too,

717
00:42:21,160 --> 00:42:23,160
Speaker 2: and he was always there for us. He was there

718
00:42:23,160 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 2: for all of us, all for of us. He's a

719
00:42:25,680 --> 00:42:31,960
Speaker 2: good man, and it's just a shame that Kim wants

720
00:42:32,000 --> 00:42:35,359
Speaker 2: to try and portray him in some sort of bad light.

721
00:42:35,480 --> 00:42:37,879
Speaker 2: She didn't really know the man, so I'm not sure

722
00:42:37,920 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: what the mode if he's there. I don't understand she's

723
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:46,799
Speaker 2: defensive for a mother, but definitely what she's portrayed isn't

724
00:42:46,800 --> 00:42:49,000
Speaker 2: the way the whole thing fell apart. You know, Dad

725
00:42:49,120 --> 00:42:52,360
Speaker 2: was very upset. He was devastated that Bob got that

726
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:53,279
Speaker 2: ill and was that.

727
00:42:53,440 --> 00:42:58,240
Speaker 5: Sick and couldn't teens to the children.

728
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 2: And I'm sure it was a terribly, terribly hard decision to.

729
00:43:03,480 --> 00:43:05,040
Speaker 5: Finally say, after.

730
00:43:07,440 --> 00:43:11,759
Speaker 2: Months of separation and Mum trying to get health back

731
00:43:11,840 --> 00:43:14,520
Speaker 2: and to get into some sort of normal shape, but

732
00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:19,080
Speaker 2: a terribly hard situation to make the decision that we

733
00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: weren't going to keep on seeing Barb.

734
00:43:23,080 --> 00:43:25,040
Speaker 5: I know from being a parent, and be a.

735
00:43:25,160 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 2: Terrible decision to make that decision that your children weren't

736
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:32,799
Speaker 2: going to be involved with their mum. But from all

737
00:43:33,680 --> 00:43:36,800
Speaker 2: knowledge and conversations that I've had with anyone about it,

738
00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: Dad only made that decision that we weren't going to

739
00:43:41,160 --> 00:43:45,360
Speaker 2: go on and keep seeing Barb once she'd had the

740
00:43:45,760 --> 00:43:51,600
Speaker 2: massive over days and wasn't any sort of state to.

741
00:43:49,960 --> 00:43:51,120
Speaker 5: Be around us, I suppose.

742
00:43:52,800 --> 00:43:55,879
Speaker 2: And then she obviously went overseas for that period of time,

743
00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:57,440
Speaker 2: and I think it might have been up to four

744
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:02,879
Speaker 2: years before she returned stage Dad and met Jenny, who

745
00:44:02,920 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 2: I sort of refer to mum because she's the person

746
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:08,920
Speaker 2: that sort of raised me. I knew nothing different until

747
00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:12,399
Speaker 2: I was ten years of age or so.

748
00:44:12,520 --> 00:44:17,360
Speaker 11: What was the catalyst for your father to contact Barbara

749
00:44:17,560 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 11: when it was time and his view for you to

750
00:44:21,160 --> 00:44:22,680
Speaker 11: know that you had a.

751
00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 4: Mother called Barbara. She was your biological mum.

752
00:44:27,080 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: It was actually Barbara reaching out and talking to Dad

753
00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:37,200
Speaker 2: and telling him that she wasn't some sort of state

754
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:41,759
Speaker 2: to be okay, that's from discussions I had had with Dad. Yeah,

755
00:44:41,880 --> 00:44:45,359
Speaker 2: she'd breached out and sort of convinced Dad that she

756
00:44:45,480 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: was well enough.

757
00:44:48,000 --> 00:44:51,680
Speaker 20: About ten pm one evening in nineteen seventy five, I

758
00:44:51,719 --> 00:44:54,560
Speaker 20: received a phone call at home from my ex husband Philip.

759
00:44:55,320 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 20: He told me that my children wished to see me.

760
00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:00,400
Speaker 20: I was thrilled because I had not I've seen them

761
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:03,920
Speaker 20: since nineteen sixty four. Kim was four years old at

762
00:45:03,920 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 20: the time, and I've organized to fly both of us

763
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:10,840
Speaker 20: to Sydney and we booked into the Wentworth Hotel. Philip

764
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 20: told me that the children could stay over the weekend

765
00:45:13,400 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 20: and he would pay for the room alongside mine. We

766
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:20,160
Speaker 20: had a wonderful reunion and we've kept in constant contact

767
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:24,800
Speaker 20: ever since. I've been to Bronwin's first wedding, and Andrew's wedding,

768
00:45:24,840 --> 00:45:28,239
Speaker 20: and all the grandchildren's christenings. Ever since. I go to

769
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:30,719
Speaker 20: Sydney and stay with Andrew and his wife Michelle on

770
00:45:30,800 --> 00:45:32,160
Speaker 20: a regular basis.

771
00:45:33,400 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 2: Kim was just about four years of age. I suppose

772
00:45:36,360 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 2: she was reaching out. She would have thought it was

773
00:45:38,560 --> 00:45:44,560
Speaker 2: nice for her children to meet Kim. I believe that

774
00:45:44,680 --> 00:45:47,439
Speaker 2: was the catalyst for allowing us to see.

775
00:45:47,440 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 11: It must have been hard pe to get your head out.

776
00:45:54,040 --> 00:45:57,080
Speaker 5: You've suddenly got two months suddenly.

777
00:45:57,239 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: Yes, that's right, that's rights. I tried to do my

778
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:07,799
Speaker 2: best to include Mom, to include Barb in things we did,

779
00:46:08,360 --> 00:46:11,080
Speaker 2: always tried to have Barb involved in my life in

780
00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:14,680
Speaker 2: some sort of way. I must admit there was never

781
00:46:14,719 --> 00:46:19,880
Speaker 2: that true feeling of a sort of maternal bond, you know,

782
00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 2: like I'd never had that because all my formerty years

783
00:46:25,800 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: had been you know, Mam had raised Sorry Jenny, but

784
00:46:30,400 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: you know who I refer to as the lady. That's

785
00:46:32,520 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 2: the lady that raised me. That's the person that sort

786
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,920
Speaker 2: of bestowed the morals and the way I am today.

787
00:46:41,719 --> 00:46:46,600
Speaker 5: She's your mum, She's mom.

788
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 4: How are you and Kim? Now?

789
00:46:50,440 --> 00:46:56,560
Speaker 2: She contacted me after episode seventeen and we had a.

790
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:59,400
Speaker 5: Conversation, but I was just straight out asked her.

791
00:46:59,400 --> 00:47:04,080
Speaker 2: I said, I'm not sure why you had the nerve

792
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: to try and portray or basically say.

793
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,640
Speaker 5: Something that you knew was in fact and wasn't true.

794
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:17,640
Speaker 2: That I'd sent you up there on a fact finding mission.

795
00:47:18,880 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 1: Here's a reminder of what Tim said in episode seventeen, and.

796
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 5: Why did Andrew put me in that house?

797
00:47:26,719 --> 00:47:27,880
Speaker 3: He put me in that house.

798
00:47:27,920 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 12: He made me go up there so I could have

799
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:31,880
Speaker 12: eyes on Jonathan.

800
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:34,799
Speaker 5: So now I understand, and this has nothing to do

801
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:35,759
Speaker 5: with everything, but.

802
00:47:35,800 --> 00:47:39,480
Speaker 19: I understand that he knew that Jonathan had done something,

803
00:47:39,880 --> 00:47:42,440
Speaker 19: and he still set me up to live in that house.

804
00:47:44,440 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 2: Why would you put that out there to hundreds of

805
00:47:46,520 --> 00:47:49,040
Speaker 2: thousands of people that are listening to a podcast to

806
00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:54,719
Speaker 2: know something that's not true. And our answer to me was, oh,

807
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:58,520
Speaker 2: that's just the trauma talking. I don't know why I

808
00:47:58,560 --> 00:48:01,520
Speaker 2: said it, but it's the traue. We got into a

809
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:05,120
Speaker 2: bit of a tiff about so what you own the

810
00:48:05,160 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: trauma on this whole thing, do you? You're the only

811
00:48:07,200 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 2: one that's been traumatized by this. She'd been involved in

812
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:15,400
Speaker 2: it recently, but she was only your kid back then

813
00:48:15,520 --> 00:48:18,759
Speaker 2: when she went up twenty when the whole thing unfolded.

814
00:48:20,080 --> 00:48:21,640
Speaker 5: Didn't send her up there at all.

815
00:48:21,760 --> 00:48:24,080
Speaker 2: We only found out, I think after the fact that

816
00:48:24,200 --> 00:48:27,520
Speaker 2: when she was there, and I remember having a conversation,

817
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:30,239
Speaker 2: and I think it's once I knew she was there.

818
00:48:31,920 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 5: I mentioned to her, said to her.

819
00:48:34,920 --> 00:48:41,719
Speaker 2: That you need to be careful, but possibly you might

820
00:48:41,880 --> 00:48:43,239
Speaker 2: actually find something out.

821
00:48:43,360 --> 00:48:45,560
Speaker 5: I don't know, but you need to keep your wits

822
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:45,920
Speaker 5: about you.

823
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:51,360
Speaker 1: You previously told me that you found out very late

824
00:48:51,840 --> 00:48:53,959
Speaker 1: that she was going there, that you didn't know about

825
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:54,440
Speaker 1: the plan.

826
00:48:56,560 --> 00:49:00,560
Speaker 2: I didn't actually ask her to go to Andy Chad.

827
00:49:00,760 --> 00:49:06,000
Speaker 2: I found out about it very very late. I remember

828
00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:11,000
Speaker 2: saying to her, or maybe you could possibly find out something.

829
00:49:11,320 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 5: Don't push the wrong button, don't go too far.

830
00:49:15,719 --> 00:49:18,600
Speaker 11: And it was perhaps a couple of days, very soon

831
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:21,759
Speaker 11: before she went in that you heard about it.

832
00:49:21,800 --> 00:49:24,200
Speaker 4: Does that seem right? Or do you reckon? You found

833
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:25,239
Speaker 4: out later than that?

834
00:49:25,640 --> 00:49:27,400
Speaker 5: Oh, I think we actually found out later that.

835
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:33,440
Speaker 2: Throughout this process, I've tried to keep the moral high ground.

836
00:49:35,400 --> 00:49:39,440
Speaker 2: You're not run around trying to improve any form of

837
00:49:39,600 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: memory or anything like that with grandiose statements and fabricate

838
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:49,319
Speaker 2: anything for everyone with a bit of respect. So it

839
00:49:49,400 --> 00:49:53,319
Speaker 2: is just frustrating when there's some people that are trying

840
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:58,120
Speaker 2: to drag you down and make accusations. Don't know why,

841
00:49:59,120 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 2: that's up to them explain, but any it's hard on

842
00:50:03,280 --> 00:50:07,239
Speaker 2: shell people that want to hide behind you. People just

843
00:50:08,160 --> 00:50:12,240
Speaker 2: say some pretty scathing things that they don't know anything

844
00:50:12,280 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: really about it, so they don't know the.

845
00:50:15,239 --> 00:50:17,719
Speaker 5: Depths that we've gone to to get as far as

846
00:50:17,719 --> 00:50:20,920
Speaker 5: we have. There's a lot of good people were found,

847
00:50:21,440 --> 00:50:22,040
Speaker 5: young Maddie.

848
00:50:22,560 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 4: Yeah, we won't sack.

849
00:50:24,520 --> 00:50:27,040
Speaker 5: No, I'm not sucking. And the ship. These people that

850
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,000
Speaker 5: have been helping us have been fantastic.

851
00:50:31,680 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: Here's a small sample of voices of some of the

852
00:50:34,239 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 1: people who have helped me and this podcast investigation.

853
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,200
Speaker 4: And we're squeaking breaks.

854
00:50:41,520 --> 00:50:42,680
Speaker 3: And so that's why I was sitting here.

855
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,120
Speaker 4: I thought, I'll give your wrongs.

856
00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:44,319
Speaker 5: Car.

857
00:50:44,440 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 4: It's like I heard it before I saw it.

858
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:49,760
Speaker 3: So I'm sitting on my un here two bolls there.

859
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 3: I'm actually watching War the Roses.

860
00:50:54,000 --> 00:50:57,319
Speaker 19: I was listening to podcasts and you said, if there's

861
00:50:57,360 --> 00:51:01,040
Speaker 19: anything that you should be investigating or or any ideas,

862
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,960
Speaker 19: email me, and I thought, right, that's all I need.

863
00:51:04,040 --> 00:51:06,360
Speaker 5: So I've got online found your email address.

864
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:10,640
Speaker 19: My friend lived in that street down the road, a

865
00:51:10,640 --> 00:51:16,440
Speaker 19: little bit double story place up high.

866
00:51:14,600 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 21: And I thought we would it be going late at

867
00:51:17,080 --> 00:51:21,239
Speaker 21: night with something that looked like I just called it

868
00:51:21,239 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 21: a mummy. And I've said this to my son so

869
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:27,480
Speaker 21: many times about this, and I thought, well, even if

870
00:51:27,480 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 21: he was taking out belongings, you wouldn't make.

871
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 5: It look like a body.

872
00:51:33,320 --> 00:51:36,040
Speaker 21: I know that he had something in that car that

873
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:41,640
Speaker 21: resembled a body, just a body shape in the back seat.

874
00:51:43,920 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 22: She was a friend and a good friend at the time.

875
00:51:47,120 --> 00:51:49,440
Speaker 22: We'd still be friends today, I know we would. I

876
00:51:49,480 --> 00:51:51,680
Speaker 22: did feel so sorry for her though, she was gone

877
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 22: through so much heartache with him, which is why I

878
00:51:54,800 --> 00:51:56,800
Speaker 22: keptn't trying to encourage her to go.

879
00:51:59,160 --> 00:51:59,879
Speaker 18: Circumstance.

880
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 23: I believe it's extremely likely that foul play occurred in

881
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:09,879
Speaker 23: the house that night. John was obviously in a bit

882
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,719
Speaker 23: of a panic that his wife, Rollin had moved back

883
00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:13,359
Speaker 23: into the home.

884
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:18,000
Speaker 4: Today's answered a lot about how the lake works. It's

885
00:52:18,040 --> 00:52:20,200
Speaker 4: slowly giving out some of their secrets.

886
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 7: That water is bloody cold, even when you're only standing

887
00:52:23,160 --> 00:52:24,120
Speaker 7: in it up to your knees.

888
00:52:25,680 --> 00:52:27,760
Speaker 11: Then I'm just trying to work out the most efficient

889
00:52:28,280 --> 00:52:30,880
Speaker 11: and fail safe way to actually identify the objects.

890
00:52:31,200 --> 00:52:33,719
Speaker 4: I'll drag it along the bottom.

891
00:52:34,040 --> 00:52:37,440
Speaker 24: I'm contacting you to offer my assistance with legal research

892
00:52:37,760 --> 00:52:41,520
Speaker 24: analysis for Bronman. I love true crime and working to

893
00:52:41,560 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 24: solve a problem or mystery. I also find undertaking work

894
00:52:45,440 --> 00:52:47,760
Speaker 24: that is in the public interest, very rewarding.

895
00:52:49,120 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 4: I've got time, Hadley.

896
00:52:50,560 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: Everybody I mentioned to what I'm doing, they picked there

897
00:52:53,600 --> 00:52:55,200
Speaker 2: is up, there are right behind it.

898
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:59,680
Speaker 1: I easily easily just climbed in and climbed out.

899
00:53:00,200 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 4: I had a lot of dreaming there.

900
00:53:02,800 --> 00:53:06,439
Speaker 1: You sound very definite about your memory of the availability

901
00:53:06,440 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: of local call data.

902
00:53:08,160 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 18: That's one thing I'm one hundred percent sure about because

903
00:53:10,719 --> 00:53:12,960
Speaker 18: I used to do that with my job all the time.

904
00:53:14,560 --> 00:53:17,520
Speaker 1: Multi talented Maddie, Yep.

905
00:53:21,040 --> 00:53:23,760
Speaker 25: He's just a guy I saw on the front page

906
00:53:23,760 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 25: of the newspaper for the first time four months ago

907
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:28,840
Speaker 25: who happened to get my mother pregnant.

908
00:53:29,360 --> 00:53:32,520
Speaker 5: That's all he is to me. He'll never be my dad.

909
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:35,799
Speaker 25: He'll never be my father, will never be mates. We'll

910
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:39,120
Speaker 25: never sit down and have a copper together. I will

911
00:53:39,200 --> 00:53:43,520
Speaker 25: never break bread with him, purely because my grandmother would

912
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 25: be disgusted in.

913
00:53:44,520 --> 00:54:10,760
Speaker 1: Me if I did. We pulled up in a side

914
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: street outside a small business. The name painted on the

915
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:16,840
Speaker 1: glass was immediately familiar.

916
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 5: It's the salon there.

917
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: The hair salon intercuts where John's daughter Jody worked at

918
00:54:24,280 --> 00:54:28,439
Speaker 1: the time of Bromwin's disappearance. There are phone records from

919
00:54:28,440 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 1: the bill of Bromwin's rented flat at Byron Street showing

920
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:35,279
Speaker 1: the calls she had made to Jody weeks earlier, but

921
00:54:35,440 --> 00:54:39,640
Speaker 1: in a subsequent telephone call they had a row. Jody

922
00:54:39,719 --> 00:54:42,680
Speaker 1: discovered that Bromwin had moved back into the house on

923
00:54:42,840 --> 00:54:48,480
Speaker 1: Sandstone Crescent. Soon after Bromwin disappeared, someone purporting to be

924
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:53,920
Speaker 1: her telephone the salon intercuts. The female caller asked that

925
00:54:54,040 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: her message be passed on to Jody, who was on

926
00:54:56,840 --> 00:55:00,520
Speaker 1: a day off. It was a message that Bromwin called,

927
00:55:01,040 --> 00:55:04,040
Speaker 1: and this person purporting to be Bromlin said that she

928
00:55:04,160 --> 00:55:07,960
Speaker 1: had gone and that she was never coming back. When

929
00:55:08,000 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: Andy heard about it from Jody and John, he headed

930
00:55:11,440 --> 00:55:12,439
Speaker 1: straight down there.

931
00:55:13,600 --> 00:55:16,080
Speaker 2: I got here on that night and I parked with

932
00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:17,719
Speaker 2: that girl sitting in that white car.

933
00:55:18,480 --> 00:55:20,520
Speaker 5: I watched and waited for the last.

934
00:55:20,440 --> 00:55:23,160
Speaker 2: Client to walk out of that shop, and then I

935
00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:27,640
Speaker 2: walked over there, knocked on the door, introduced myself, told

936
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: Tanya Robinson who I was, and asked her about the

937
00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,480
Speaker 2: phone call. I spoke to her and I said, John

938
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 2: and Jody, you told me that there was a phone

939
00:55:37,760 --> 00:55:41,479
Speaker 2: call to the salon, And she says to me, yes,

940
00:55:41,560 --> 00:55:44,160
Speaker 2: that's correct. There was a phone call around lunchtime, well

941
00:55:44,200 --> 00:55:48,000
Speaker 2: just after lunch, and it was a female voice. I

942
00:55:48,040 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 2: can't one hundred percent tell you whether it was Bromwin,

943
00:55:50,040 --> 00:55:53,440
Speaker 2: but it was a female voice saying and stating that

944
00:55:53,520 --> 00:55:56,240
Speaker 2: I'm in Queensland and tell.

945
00:55:56,200 --> 00:55:57,560
Speaker 5: Jody I'm not coming back.

946
00:55:58,719 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 2: So I left with that information, went back home Michelle

947
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 2: and told her what I'd found out, and she took

948
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,160
Speaker 2: haend notes and write anything down.

949
00:56:06,719 --> 00:56:09,280
Speaker 5: But all this time it's still called exactly the same salent.

950
00:56:10,600 --> 00:56:13,719
Speaker 1: In early July, as we were putting together Episode ten,

951
00:56:14,120 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 1: and his hopes of a discovery were raised at Lake

952
00:56:17,200 --> 00:56:21,399
Speaker 1: Ainsworth at Lennox Head. With the help of volunteers led

953
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:25,640
Speaker 1: by Ashley McDonald, an expert scuba diver and retired captain

954
00:56:25,719 --> 00:56:29,680
Speaker 1: in the Royal Australian Navy, and Chris Darcy, a qualified

955
00:56:29,800 --> 00:56:33,840
Speaker 1: searcher and kadava dog handler, we scanned the lake bed

956
00:56:33,880 --> 00:56:34,520
Speaker 1: for clues.

957
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:40,840
Speaker 2: I should have always thought she's up there, that she

958
00:56:41,000 --> 00:56:42,480
Speaker 2: was dumped up in the lake or whatever.

959
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,360
Speaker 5: You know, That's what I'd always sort of thought.

960
00:56:44,520 --> 00:56:48,839
Speaker 2: But knowing our suspicions and how I had said to you,

961
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:55,120
Speaker 2: the other possibility is this place because you came forward

962
00:56:55,200 --> 00:57:03,720
Speaker 2: and told me about the information you received. Now knowing

963
00:57:03,760 --> 00:57:08,400
Speaker 2: what Glenn has said, this is the easier option. The

964
00:57:08,480 --> 00:57:11,239
Speaker 2: garash lab would have been thigger and possibly could have

965
00:57:11,280 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 2: been three layers of mesh, so it would have been

966
00:57:13,320 --> 00:57:17,360
Speaker 2: more work to lift up the reinforcement. You possibly would.

967
00:57:17,200 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 5: Have had a top and bottom layer a mesh.

968
00:57:19,880 --> 00:57:23,000
Speaker 2: The eastern back corner of the porch was where it

969
00:57:23,080 --> 00:57:27,080
Speaker 2: was back filled. That's easier because that's just pedestrian traffic,

970
00:57:27,160 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 2: no vehicle traffic. It would have only been one hundred

971
00:57:29,600 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: mili concrete or one twenty max and one layer of mesh.

972
00:57:34,880 --> 00:57:36,560
Speaker 5: That's all much required structurally.

973
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:38,680
Speaker 4: If that's where she is.

974
00:57:40,080 --> 00:57:44,120
Speaker 1: I'm trying to visualize it is she entombed in concrete.

975
00:57:44,520 --> 00:57:50,160
Speaker 2: No should be under concrete in dirt, so.

976
00:57:50,080 --> 00:57:51,680
Speaker 3: The dirt goes first.

977
00:57:52,640 --> 00:57:55,040
Speaker 9: John would have dug into the dirt to put her

978
00:57:55,120 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 9: in and then covered her with dirt, and then she

979
00:57:57,520 --> 00:58:00,000
Speaker 9: would have been then covered with that layer of plus

980
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:05,280
Speaker 9: sick and then covered with the mesh, and then the concrete.

981
00:58:06,200 --> 00:58:09,080
Speaker 4: Animal activity wouldn't bother.

982
00:58:08,920 --> 00:58:13,520
Speaker 2: It locked in because it would have complete brickwork all

983
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:17,320
Speaker 2: the way around it. With the slab sitting on the

984
00:58:17,360 --> 00:58:20,480
Speaker 2: brickwork as a capping as a complete lead.

985
00:58:20,800 --> 00:58:21,440
Speaker 4: If she was.

986
00:58:21,400 --> 00:58:24,600
Speaker 2: There, she sealed a lie in the back corner of

987
00:58:24,680 --> 00:58:30,600
Speaker 2: a perfectly sell cavity of brickwork with a concrete.

988
00:58:30,240 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 3: Lead, she'll still decompose, but there's no way.

989
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:40,080
Speaker 9: Any animals can to move her bones and things like that.

990
00:58:41,000 --> 00:58:42,920
Speaker 4: Would there be any external smell?

991
00:58:43,280 --> 00:58:44,400
Speaker 5: No, not at all.

992
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:48,880
Speaker 1: How would you go about testing that side to see

993
00:58:48,880 --> 00:58:49,880
Speaker 1: if there's anything there?

994
00:58:49,880 --> 00:58:51,760
Speaker 4: Wouldn't that be a difficult process.

995
00:58:52,400 --> 00:58:55,400
Speaker 2: You could nearly just drill a hole through the ground,

996
00:58:55,480 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 2: gap through the slab, and down into the ground to disturb.

997
00:59:00,400 --> 00:59:02,520
Speaker 2: So you can drill a series of holes and get

998
00:59:02,560 --> 00:59:05,760
Speaker 2: a checked by a dog. The place is unharmed. All

999
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,920
Speaker 2: you've got to do is just regrout the hole and

1000
00:59:08,000 --> 00:59:11,960
Speaker 2: fill it up. If it's a smaller type tile, then

1001
00:59:12,000 --> 00:59:13,920
Speaker 2: you might have to break some tiles to be able

1002
00:59:13,920 --> 00:59:15,040
Speaker 2: to draw lyles through it.

1003
00:59:15,720 --> 00:59:18,800
Speaker 5: That would mean you'd have a little bit of remediation

1004
00:59:18,960 --> 00:59:23,480
Speaker 5: to do. It's a relatively easy search to happen.

1005
00:59:26,160 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 16: You will note.

1006
00:59:26,760 --> 00:59:29,600
Speaker 9: Pretty quickly if she's not there, If the dogs don't

1007
00:59:29,600 --> 00:59:35,000
Speaker 9: sense anything, she's not there because she kind of moved.

1008
00:59:35,600 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 5: Is there a scan that can be used?

1009
00:59:39,160 --> 00:59:42,400
Speaker 1: Andy telephone to contact in the building industry as we

1010
00:59:42,480 --> 00:59:47,400
Speaker 1: drove west towards Illawong. The guy is a concrete scanning

1011
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:51,120
Speaker 1: specialist with whom Andy has worked on sides across the shire.

1012
00:59:52,200 --> 00:59:56,080
Speaker 5: Andy, you mane cool, my good. Just got a quick question.

1013
00:59:57,120 --> 01:00:02,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, does any of your equipment through say a tile

1014
01:00:02,920 --> 01:00:06,959
Speaker 2: one hundred or one hundred and twenty mel slab? What would

1015
01:00:06,960 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 2: that detect underneath the slab? If there was something in

1016
01:00:10,200 --> 01:00:13,240
Speaker 2: the ground with any of your gear, would it pick

1017
01:00:13,320 --> 01:00:14,160
Speaker 2: up bones?

1018
01:00:15,120 --> 01:00:15,520
Speaker 4: Bones?

1019
01:00:16,000 --> 01:00:19,160
Speaker 5: Yeah? The trouble is they might be deep.

1020
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:23,280
Speaker 2: Wouldn't be any more than four hundred maybe four hundred below.

1021
01:00:23,880 --> 01:00:26,120
Speaker 5: So you found something of you. We're trying to.

1022
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:28,760
Speaker 2: Work out if there was a body lying under the slab,

1023
01:00:29,000 --> 01:00:29,919
Speaker 2: would it show up?

1024
01:00:30,320 --> 01:00:31,960
Speaker 26: If what you're asking me is what I think you're

1025
01:00:32,000 --> 01:00:34,920
Speaker 26: asking me, You're really looking for a disturbance in the

1026
01:00:34,920 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 26: ground where there's been something dug and you're not going

1027
01:00:38,040 --> 01:00:41,640
Speaker 26: to see bones. You're really looking for a disturbance in

1028
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:45,160
Speaker 26: the ground, changes in what's happening below the slab.

1029
01:00:45,240 --> 01:00:47,000
Speaker 5: I guess this thing it.

1030
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,520
Speaker 2: Was about six hundred millifil we'd only be looking into

1031
01:00:50,520 --> 01:00:52,960
Speaker 2: the six hundred because we know it wouldn't be any

1032
01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:55,120
Speaker 2: deeper than that because the ground had been fairly hard

1033
01:00:55,120 --> 01:00:55,960
Speaker 2: and it'd be too hard.

1034
01:00:55,960 --> 01:01:01,320
Speaker 26: A job just sounds possible in principle. Yes, where us

1035
01:01:01,440 --> 01:01:01,880
Speaker 26: is this job?

1036
01:01:02,560 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 5: Killow? Thank you?

1037
01:01:06,560 --> 01:01:09,400
Speaker 1: The call ended, and I wondered what Andy's friend with

1038
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:14,560
Speaker 1: the concrete scanning equipment and expertise was thinking. His mind

1039
01:01:14,680 --> 01:01:16,840
Speaker 1: must have been racing with possibilities.

1040
01:01:17,920 --> 01:01:21,000
Speaker 2: If she was ever put there, then the ground will

1041
01:01:21,000 --> 01:01:24,479
Speaker 2: show up to be very loose because she's decomposed. It'd

1042
01:01:24,480 --> 01:01:27,240
Speaker 2: be a dark shadow underneath the slab because the ground

1043
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:29,840
Speaker 2: is subsided away from hard up under the concrete and

1044
01:01:29,880 --> 01:01:33,680
Speaker 2: the plastic. As she decomposed, the sand and the dirt

1045
01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,960
Speaker 2: would seek down and there'd be a void space underneath

1046
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 2: the slab.

1047
01:01:38,560 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 5: I've had him do jobs for me.

1048
01:01:40,800 --> 01:01:43,440
Speaker 2: The slab will show up and you'll see the reinforcement.

1049
01:01:43,800 --> 01:01:45,440
Speaker 5: They can tell you exactly how deep it is.

1050
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:48,120
Speaker 2: If the ground had stuck away from that slab and

1051
01:01:48,160 --> 01:01:52,440
Speaker 2: there's nothing underneath the slab, the radar goes dark in color.

1052
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,640
Speaker 9: I remember researching it, and as you recall that in

1053
01:01:57,680 --> 01:02:01,000
Speaker 9: some cases it wasn't successful. When went to dig there

1054
01:02:01,000 --> 01:02:03,120
Speaker 9: were no roomains, so they thought there.

1055
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:07,480
Speaker 4: Were It's quite a drive that's the word one.

1056
01:02:07,680 --> 01:02:09,680
Speaker 5: Yeah, I noticed how we crossed the bridge.

1057
01:02:10,240 --> 01:02:12,120
Speaker 2: We always say that if we haven't needed to, we

1058
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:13,840
Speaker 2: can book dates on those bridges.

1059
01:02:14,360 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 5: Keep the riff raff out.

1060
01:02:15,520 --> 01:02:16,720
Speaker 4: I thought the riff raff was in.

1061
01:02:17,000 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 5: No, it's all. That's all on the fat side, bak.

1062
01:02:21,360 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: This wasn't originally part of the show until I have

1063
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:24,760
Speaker 2: started opening up.

1064
01:02:25,920 --> 01:02:29,520
Speaker 1: And he turned into the street. He slowed to a

1065
01:02:29,600 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 1: crawl outside a double story brick house.

1066
01:02:33,840 --> 01:02:37,200
Speaker 5: So see the veranda. It's the garage on ground.

1067
01:02:38,920 --> 01:02:41,280
Speaker 2: There's the front door with the bay window, and then

1068
01:02:41,320 --> 01:02:44,120
Speaker 2: that front area of the slab over there, because the

1069
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:46,800
Speaker 2: ground starts sloping away on that far.

1070
01:02:46,840 --> 01:02:53,000
Speaker 15: Side, looks like a neat and tidy house. Yeah, it's aged. Well,

1071
01:02:54,720 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 15: so just slow down here on the.

1072
01:02:57,000 --> 01:02:58,080
Speaker 5: Reflat front window.

1073
01:02:58,160 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 2: In that back corner in front of that window is

1074
01:03:01,160 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 2: where he's mentioning that he possibly thinks's that point.

1075
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:09,800
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was backfields.

1076
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,320
Speaker 4: Just go forward and do it too, and he.

1077
01:03:15,000 --> 01:03:18,439
Speaker 11: As you look at it again, Now, what's your view

1078
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:23,240
Speaker 11: about the logistics and the feasibility the plausibility of what

1079
01:03:23,320 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 11: we're talking about.

1080
01:03:25,520 --> 01:03:28,520
Speaker 2: Like Glenn was saying, he only came in the morning

1081
01:03:28,960 --> 01:03:32,040
Speaker 2: and in the afternoon he'd come, he'd set things up,

1082
01:03:32,080 --> 01:03:34,600
Speaker 2: so he'd probably laid bricks out, make sure there's sand,

1083
01:03:34,680 --> 01:03:36,800
Speaker 2: make sure there was cement, make sure everything was there,

1084
01:03:37,040 --> 01:03:38,960
Speaker 2: and then John would just come and work away on

1085
01:03:39,040 --> 01:03:42,400
Speaker 2: that house on his own. So John could have very

1086
01:03:42,400 --> 01:03:44,720
Speaker 2: easily backed the car up over there. That tree wouldn't

1087
01:03:44,720 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 2: have been there. You would have backed the car up

1088
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:49,240
Speaker 2: over there, disturbed the back of that porch or whatever.

1089
01:03:49,480 --> 01:03:52,000
Speaker 2: Hardly anyone would have been around, and then you would

1090
01:03:52,000 --> 01:03:56,720
Speaker 2: have just taken around of the boot, rolled straight across

1091
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: the ground there under the back of that porch.

1092
01:04:00,080 --> 01:04:01,600
Speaker 5: They've added soil into.

1093
01:04:01,480 --> 01:04:03,800
Speaker 2: That back area to level it, to level it and

1094
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,600
Speaker 2: then pull the slab on top. So it's backfield okay,

1095
01:04:06,720 --> 01:04:09,560
Speaker 2: in that back east corner, got it all right?

1096
01:04:09,920 --> 01:04:11,080
Speaker 5: See the land falls away.

1097
01:04:11,200 --> 01:04:11,400
Speaker 16: Yeah.

1098
01:04:12,720 --> 01:04:15,400
Speaker 1: At the start of the day I spoke to Andy

1099
01:04:15,480 --> 01:04:19,560
Speaker 1: and Maddie about possibly trying to explain things to the owners,

1100
01:04:20,280 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 1: about trying to talk to them about John and Bromwyn

1101
01:04:23,440 --> 01:04:27,040
Speaker 1: and events of three decades ago and how those events

1102
01:04:27,040 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 1: are being brought into sharp focus by a suspected murder

1103
01:04:30,520 --> 01:04:34,240
Speaker 1: and a podcast investigation which is now circling their beautiful

1104
01:04:34,240 --> 01:04:38,000
Speaker 1: family home in the suburban street near two rivers and

1105
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:39,480
Speaker 1: parks and schools.

1106
01:04:40,600 --> 01:04:42,760
Speaker 9: Can you imagine if someone came up to your door

1107
01:04:42,840 --> 01:04:48,120
Speaker 9: and Tony, this may be a person underneath your approach

1108
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,200
Speaker 9: geor which, Yes, I don't know if i'd like to

1109
01:04:52,280 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 9: hear that.

1110
01:04:54,080 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 5: How would you even approach that?

1111
01:04:56,000 --> 01:04:58,360
Speaker 4: I just feel like I'd like to take a bit

1112
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:01,720
Speaker 4: more time. I don't think we should approach today.

1113
01:05:04,560 --> 01:05:08,880
Speaker 1: So maybe this episode is going to be the last

1114
01:05:08,920 --> 01:05:14,240
Speaker 1: one of this season two. Yeah, there'll be a whole

1115
01:05:14,240 --> 01:05:18,160
Speaker 1: lot more coming, but I feel like with the amount

1116
01:05:18,240 --> 01:05:22,360
Speaker 1: of material that we've developed and so.

1117
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,280
Speaker 4: Much more that is still to come, we're just.

1118
01:05:25,200 --> 01:05:28,560
Speaker 11: Going to have to take some time and a break

1119
01:05:28,920 --> 01:05:33,080
Speaker 11: and come back with the third season of this and

1120
01:05:33,320 --> 01:05:37,680
Speaker 11: there could be another eight, ten or more episodes earlier

1121
01:05:37,720 --> 01:05:38,280
Speaker 11: than New Year.

1122
01:05:40,240 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 2: Who would have thought that we'd have to do what

1123
01:05:43,480 --> 01:05:49,560
Speaker 2: nineteen episodes and still hear nothing from the police about

1124
01:05:50,120 --> 01:05:55,960
Speaker 2: getting act different, mobilizing and actually doing something.

1125
01:05:57,160 --> 01:06:01,840
Speaker 11: You'd had no further word from anybody. Did you listen

1126
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:03,400
Speaker 11: to that episode of The Front?

1127
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:04,200
Speaker 25: Yes?

1128
01:06:04,480 --> 01:06:05,000
Speaker 1: I did.

1129
01:06:06,680 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 18: From the Australian Here's what's on the Front. I'm Claire Harvey.

1130
01:06:09,640 --> 01:06:17,040
Speaker 18: It's Tuesday, November five, What if anything is going on

1131
01:06:17,160 --> 01:06:20,200
Speaker 18: with the New South Wales Police's investigation into missing woman

1132
01:06:20,320 --> 01:06:24,520
Speaker 18: Bromwin Winfield. This is Andy Reid, whose sister Bromwyn Winfield

1133
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:28,320
Speaker 18: vanished from her Lennox Head home more than thirty years ago.

1134
01:06:28,680 --> 01:06:31,480
Speaker 5: I just can't believe that they can be so slow

1135
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 5: on this matter.

1136
01:06:32,760 --> 01:06:36,919
Speaker 18: He's venting his frustrations to The Australian's National Chief correspondent

1137
01:06:37,040 --> 01:06:40,920
Speaker 18: Headley Thomas about the conduct of New South Wales Police.

1138
01:06:41,040 --> 01:06:45,040
Speaker 18: Our reporter Alexei Dimitriadi hit up Commissioner Karen Webb and

1139
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:49,040
Speaker 18: Homicide Commander Danny Doherty at a press conference in recent days.

1140
01:06:50,400 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 5: In terms of for.

1141
01:06:51,160 --> 01:06:54,680
Speaker 27: That matter that's on investigation as the Carol avestigation and

1142
01:06:54,720 --> 01:06:58,640
Speaker 27: it's world documented. There's a podcast in Israel and following

1143
01:06:58,680 --> 01:07:01,720
Speaker 27: that story. But in terms of the un termine have

1144
01:07:01,800 --> 01:07:03,760
Speaker 27: an investigation is current when that's oncoming.

1145
01:07:04,840 --> 01:07:08,360
Speaker 18: Heally, I've heard senior police saying over the years, very frankly,

1146
01:07:08,520 --> 01:07:12,200
Speaker 18: that the conviction of Chris Dawson would not have happened

1147
01:07:12,240 --> 01:07:16,080
Speaker 18: without the teacher's pet. Do you think there are remnants

1148
01:07:16,160 --> 01:07:18,680
Speaker 18: of a bit of a cultural cringe or a bit

1149
01:07:18,680 --> 01:07:21,320
Speaker 18: of humiliation in the police that they were shown up

1150
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:24,560
Speaker 18: in that instance and that they don't really want this

1151
01:07:24,640 --> 01:07:26,600
Speaker 18: to be true. They don't really want it to be

1152
01:07:26,680 --> 01:07:28,680
Speaker 18: the case that there is more to be done here

1153
01:07:28,720 --> 01:07:30,960
Speaker 18: and that a journalist is doing it.

1154
01:07:30,960 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 1: It's possible. I think there's also a high degree of

1155
01:07:34,560 --> 01:07:40,000
Speaker 1: caution because these cases can inevitably end up before a judge,

1156
01:07:40,400 --> 01:07:44,480
Speaker 1: and in the Teacher's Pet case, parts of my work

1157
01:07:44,640 --> 01:07:48,480
Speaker 1: were criticized by a senior judge and parts of the

1158
01:07:48,520 --> 01:07:53,080
Speaker 1: police response with the Teacher's Pet podcast were also criticized

1159
01:07:53,080 --> 01:07:55,680
Speaker 1: by a judge. So there may be a bit of

1160
01:07:55,680 --> 01:07:59,560
Speaker 1: an overcorrection by a new South Wales Police currently as

1161
01:07:59,560 --> 01:08:00,440
Speaker 1: a result to that.

1162
01:08:00,960 --> 01:08:03,560
Speaker 5: But I think that they've just gone too far.

1163
01:08:03,680 --> 01:08:08,320
Speaker 1: They've gone from being really cooperative and in a very

1164
01:08:08,360 --> 01:08:12,520
Speaker 1: constructive way in the Teacher's Pet and owning the issue

1165
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:17,200
Speaker 1: in the public arena, to looking like they're trying to

1166
01:08:17,280 --> 01:08:20,960
Speaker 1: curl up and be the smallest possible target, almost to

1167
01:08:21,000 --> 01:08:24,519
Speaker 1: the point of appearing to be disinterested in Bromin's case.

1168
01:08:24,840 --> 01:08:26,320
Speaker 4: And if you're the family.

1169
01:08:26,200 --> 01:08:29,640
Speaker 1: Of a woman who has been missing thirty one years,

1170
01:08:30,280 --> 01:08:32,760
Speaker 1: a woman who was separating from her husband when she

1171
01:08:32,880 --> 01:08:37,800
Speaker 1: suddenly disappeared from their two daughters, their home, all of

1172
01:08:37,840 --> 01:08:41,400
Speaker 1: her possessions, family and friends. You're looking at these two

1173
01:08:41,439 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 1: cases and saying, well, is Bromwin's life to the New

1174
01:08:45,200 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 1: South Wales Police worth less than Lin's.

1175
01:08:49,360 --> 01:08:52,519
Speaker 5: It's very frustrating that I haven't wanted to come forward.

1176
01:08:53,600 --> 01:08:56,560
Speaker 2: I've made the first representation to Parliament. I was a

1177
01:08:56,640 --> 01:09:00,759
Speaker 2: parliament House last week. Have it a meeting with Mark Speakman,

1178
01:09:00,840 --> 01:09:02,799
Speaker 2: my local member who's actually the.

1179
01:09:03,040 --> 01:09:04,760
Speaker 5: Ship Wales opposition leader as well.

1180
01:09:05,280 --> 01:09:08,280
Speaker 2: He said he's more than happy to make representations on

1181
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:12,519
Speaker 2: my behalf to the police Minister, to Attorney General, to

1182
01:09:12,600 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: the commissioner.

1183
01:09:13,560 --> 01:09:15,639
Speaker 5: With the cat amongst the pigeons, so to speak.

1184
01:09:17,040 --> 01:09:18,679
Speaker 4: I don't know what's taken him so long.

1185
01:09:20,320 --> 01:09:21,160
Speaker 5: He's a busy fella.

1186
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:26,680
Speaker 2: We know there's further things that need investigating.

1187
01:09:28,160 --> 01:09:29,760
Speaker 5: We've got to do it. That's what we've got to do.

1188
01:09:30,479 --> 01:09:32,759
Speaker 2: Something somewhere along the line's going to get the police

1189
01:09:32,800 --> 01:09:37,880
Speaker 2: into action. Doady gets up there and makes broad ranging statement.

1190
01:09:38,760 --> 01:09:41,400
Speaker 1: And he is referring to a media conference at which

1191
01:09:41,439 --> 01:09:45,120
Speaker 1: the police Commissioner said nothing, and the most senior homicide

1192
01:09:45,200 --> 01:09:48,559
Speaker 1: detective in New South Wales, Danny Doherty, said.

1193
01:09:49,000 --> 01:09:52,639
Speaker 27: He probably read about an Australia or listener on the podcast. However,

1194
01:09:52,760 --> 01:09:56,120
Speaker 27: we can't comment on WHPE investigations, current discussions.

1195
01:09:56,640 --> 01:10:00,200
Speaker 2: Live investigation happening, and they haven't spoken to everyone like

1196
01:10:00,280 --> 01:10:01,400
Speaker 2: investigation happening.

1197
01:10:02,800 --> 01:10:06,840
Speaker 4: I was thinking, also, any about the impact on you

1198
01:10:06,880 --> 01:10:12,440
Speaker 4: and your family. You've become public property in this investigation.

1199
01:10:13,920 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 4: Has it been worth it for you?

1200
01:10:18,120 --> 01:10:20,160
Speaker 5: It takes its tile, I must say.

1201
01:10:20,600 --> 01:10:22,200
Speaker 2: Went to the doctors the other day and he made

1202
01:10:22,240 --> 01:10:25,320
Speaker 2: me stay there and do a bloody, a zero or

1203
01:10:25,360 --> 01:10:27,679
Speaker 2: five minute and a ten minute blood pressure test because

1204
01:10:27,680 --> 01:10:30,439
Speaker 2: it's not happening with blood pressure. And I had to

1205
01:10:30,439 --> 01:10:32,639
Speaker 2: tell him and I confide in doing what I've been

1206
01:10:32,640 --> 01:10:34,679
Speaker 2: going for and he just went shit. He said, Any,

1207
01:10:34,720 --> 01:10:39,120
Speaker 2: I've been treating you since two thousand and eight. He

1208
01:10:39,160 --> 01:10:41,519
Speaker 2: couldn't believe. He said, trist you've boomed through a lot

1209
01:10:41,600 --> 01:10:44,560
Speaker 2: mate and he fall over in Italy and having to

1210
01:10:44,600 --> 01:10:49,000
Speaker 2: get flown home and spinal surgery and crushing your foot

1211
01:10:49,080 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 2: and breaking your tailbone, and said christ stage four canc

1212
01:10:53,560 --> 01:10:55,080
Speaker 2: He said, you put through everything.

1213
01:10:55,800 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 5: But I said, I think we're cann handle a bit

1214
01:10:57,520 --> 01:10:58,160
Speaker 5: of blood pressure.

1215
01:10:58,160 --> 01:11:00,559
Speaker 2: Will stay in trouble that for you and take a

1216
01:11:00,560 --> 01:11:02,280
Speaker 2: bucket full of brown snakes to get rid of me.

1217
01:11:02,439 --> 01:11:04,080
Speaker 5: May I got to see this through.

1218
01:11:06,000 --> 01:11:08,840
Speaker 2: We just check plowing on known't we? I suppose that's

1219
01:11:08,880 --> 01:11:13,120
Speaker 2: all we can do. Keep pushing for justice for Braun.

1220
01:11:27,120 --> 01:11:31,200
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1221
01:11:31,200 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1222
01:11:36,200 --> 01:11:40,000
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1223
01:11:40,200 --> 01:11:46,519
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwin at the Australian dot com dot au.

1224
01:11:47,240 --> 01:11:50,120
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1225
01:11:50,240 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1226
01:11:54,760 --> 01:12:00,960
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1227
01:12:01,560 --> 01:12:06,080
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1228
01:12:06,200 --> 01:12:12,160
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiet, Joshua Burton, Bridget, Ryan Bianca, far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1229
01:12:12,479 --> 01:12:18,080
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, Matthew Condon and David Murray. Audio

1230
01:12:18,080 --> 01:12:22,000
Speaker 1: production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and

1231
01:12:22,320 --> 01:12:26,720
Speaker 1: original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been assisted

1232
01:12:26,720 --> 01:12:30,720
Speaker 1: by Madison Walsh, a relation of bromin Winfield. We can

1233
01:12:30,800 --> 01:12:33,600
Speaker 1: only do this kind of journalism with the support of

1234
01:12:33,640 --> 01:12:38,400
Speaker 1: our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman. For

1235
01:12:38,520 --> 01:12:43,240
Speaker 1: all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines, and documents

1236
01:12:43,280 --> 01:12:47,160
Speaker 1: about this podcast and other podcasts including The Teacher's Pet,

1237
01:12:47,439 --> 01:12:52,000
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1238
01:12:52,280 --> 01:12:56,000
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver. Go to the Australian dot com

1239
01:12:56,080 --> 01:13:06,519
Speaker 1: dot au and subscribe