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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person has

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. Today we

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Speaker 1: have a deeply personal episode from a person who found

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Speaker 1: herself the victim of a fraudser who betrayed her trust

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Speaker 1: in the most heartless way. Now, throughout my policing career,

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Speaker 1: I locked up all types of criminals, horrendous crimes, but

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Speaker 1: the one type of offender who always got under my

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Speaker 1: skin were fraudsters. I just find them despicable human beings

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Speaker 1: who deliberately prey on honest, hard working people. The financial

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Speaker 1: impact they have on the victims can be devastating, but

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Speaker 1: more importantly, the loss of faith in human nature can

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Speaker 1: have a deep impact. Today's guest, Tracy Hall, had a

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Speaker 1: life destroyed by the actions of one man. As she

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Speaker 1: described in a book, The Last Victim, I felt financially betrayed,

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Speaker 1: emotionally destroyed, and stripped bare of everything I thought was real.

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Speaker 1: But Tracy is not going to let a low life

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Speaker 1: like Hamish McLaren define her life. She has spoken out

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Speaker 1: about how this man came into a life, stole a heart,

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Speaker 1: trust and money. Tracy's an impressive person, hard working, successful

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Speaker 1: woman whose only mistake was putting her trust in a

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Speaker 1: man who made his living deceiving people. Her story and

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Speaker 1: other victim stories were covered in a hugely successful podcast

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Speaker 1: series called Who the Hell Is Hamish Today. She's bravely

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Speaker 1: agreed to come on the Eye Catch Killers podcast and

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Speaker 1: share her story in the hope that others can learn

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Speaker 1: from what she discovered on just how we all need

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Speaker 1: to be careful with the trust we put in other people,

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Speaker 1: even those we love. Tracy Hall, welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Hey, Gary, how are you good?

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Speaker 1: Good? Look? Thank you so much for coming on the

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Speaker 1: podcast to tell your story. I think it's we're all.

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Speaker 1: I think we go through life and we all meet

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Speaker 1: people that their intent is probably not what they first portray,

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Speaker 1: and we've all been victims of scams and frauds. So

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Speaker 1: I think people are going to really buy into your

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Speaker 1: story because I've read your book over the weekend, The

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Speaker 1: Last Victim, and I've got to say, I can see

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Speaker 1: how you would be deceived when someone's so highly motivated

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Speaker 1: to this is the endgame. I'll do what they have

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Speaker 1: to do. It can really bring you unstuck. I've got

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Speaker 1: to ask, but what motivates you to talk out about it?

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Speaker 1: Because a lot of people that are victims of scams

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Speaker 1: and that there's an embarrassment attached to it, they just

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Speaker 1: want to let it pass by.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: It took me a long time to talk about it,

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Speaker 3: to be honest, I was so ashamed, I was so embarrassed.

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Speaker 3: I was really trying to put the pieces together in

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Speaker 3: my own mind about what had happened. And what I

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Speaker 3: realized was that I had never really heard a story

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Speaker 3: like this before. And it wasn't until I started talking

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Speaker 3: about it that people came to me and said, Oh,

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Speaker 3: that happened to my parents, or that happened to my auntie,

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Speaker 3: that happened to me, And I thought, you know what,

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Speaker 3: these stories need to be told to educate people, to

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Speaker 3: warn other people, and also to release people of the

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Speaker 3: shame and embarrassment similar to what I felt, because it

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Speaker 3: does happen more often than you think, and it can

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Speaker 3: happen to anyone.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, when you talk the shame and embarrassment, it's funny,

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Speaker 1: isn't it, Because we all like to think we're not

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Speaker 1: nai even no one can pull the wool over our eyes.

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Speaker 1: But it happens time and again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it happens to you know, incredibly intelligent, well traveled,

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Speaker 3: educated people, like.

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Speaker 2: It really can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 3: And I think, you know, sometimes the stories that you

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Speaker 3: hear on the news, you have this picture of who

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Speaker 3: might be someone that gets scammed, and quite often it's

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Speaker 3: sort of a lonely middle aged woman sitting in a

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Speaker 3: lounge room looking for love on the internet and suddenly

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Speaker 3: she gives her life savings to an African prince. And

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Speaker 3: you know, those stories don't help because most of us

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Speaker 3: brush past them and say, well, that would never be me.

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Speaker 3: I would never fall for that, And to be honest,

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Speaker 3: I was one of those people. And yet here I

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Speaker 3: am I lost my life savings to someone who pretended

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Speaker 3: to love me.

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Speaker 1: Well, that's where what happened to you is a double

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Speaker 1: edged sword, isn't it, Because it not only stole your

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Speaker 1: finances but your emotions. And I would imagine that hurts,

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Speaker 1: if not more, at least just as much as losing

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Speaker 1: the finances when you put your love and trust in

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Speaker 1: the someone.

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Speaker 3: I think that's a common theme is that you know,

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Speaker 3: finance is a one thing. You can always make money.

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Speaker 3: If you're motivated, if you've got the right mindset, you

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Speaker 3: can make money. It's the emotional betrayal and the emotional

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Speaker 3: rebuilding that is the hardest. In building that trust in

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Speaker 3: yourself probably first and foremost, but also the world around

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Speaker 3: you because you for me, for example, i'd never come

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Speaker 3: across anything like Hamish. You never been exposed to someone

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Speaker 3: who was so callously deceiving me, intentionally for their own

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Speaker 3: financial gain, and so everything you think about the world

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Speaker 3: comes unstuck.

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Speaker 1: It makes sense. I often think about how people become

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Speaker 1: victims of what happened to you, or other scams, or

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Speaker 1: where people have been just playing simple taken advantage. I've

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Speaker 1: been a cop for a long time, so I'm not

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Speaker 1: naive in what people are capable of. But I still

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Speaker 1: like to see the good in human nature. And I

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Speaker 1: can't believe someone would be so motivated to rip people off,

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Speaker 1: basically take things from them. And I think that's where

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Speaker 1: we come unstuck. Because if you are and we've got

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Speaker 1: to go through life, you don't want to suspect everyone.

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Speaker 1: We want to go through life putting a degree of

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Speaker 1: trust because most people are good, genuinely good. But that's

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Speaker 1: the aspect that they pray on because they don't think

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Speaker 1: anyone would be aware of how deceptive they can be.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and if you don't suspect somebody, you're not looking

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Speaker 3: for those red flags, you know. You you know, I

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Speaker 3: think we all go through life trusting people. You know,

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Speaker 3: I talk a lot about there are these invisible contracts

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Speaker 3: of trust that exist within our society that makes the

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Speaker 3: world work.

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Speaker 2: You know, you go to.

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Speaker 3: The doctor, you don't ask to see their medical degree.

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Speaker 3: You trust that they are going to prescribe the right

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Speaker 3: medication for you because of their qualifications. You drive down

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Speaker 3: the road and you trust the person coming in the

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Speaker 3: other direction knows the road rules, has their license, hasn't

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Speaker 3: been drinking.

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Speaker 2: You get on an.

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Speaker 3: Aeroplane, you don't swing left with your portable breathalyzer, and

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Speaker 3: you know, ask the pilots to do a quick test

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Speaker 3: because you trust that they are abiding by the rules

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Speaker 3: and regulations that we have in our society to make

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Speaker 3: it work. And then so we have these kind of

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Speaker 3: like you know, these these these moments where people prey

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Speaker 3: on that trust when you're not suspecting it. Because most

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Speaker 3: of the time we do go throughout life thinking the

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Speaker 3: best of people, and most times people have your best

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Speaker 3: interest at harsh it's just the ones that don't that,

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Speaker 3: like you said, do pray on that spot in you

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Speaker 3: that doesn't suspect.

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Speaker 1: And we've got to try and find that balance between

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Speaker 1: a little bit a little bit of suspicion attached, not

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Speaker 1: too naive, but also be able to go through life

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Speaker 1: trusting people. And you want to be able to do that.

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Speaker 1: You talked about red flags, and I know this in

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Speaker 1: your book you refer to them at the time. They're

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Speaker 1: just flags with the benefit of hindsight, and let me

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Speaker 1: tell you, we're all very wise with the benefit of hindsight. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't have done that, but you don't know unless

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Speaker 1: you're in that situation. And I think with your situation too,

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Speaker 1: it was you weren't looking out for a person that

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Speaker 1: wasn't part of your life. You let this person into

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Speaker 1: your life, and he manipulated that situation, so he was

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Speaker 1: part of your life. So the very person that you

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Speaker 1: put your most trust in is the one that's deceiving you.

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Speaker 1: It's just it's so cruel and.

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Speaker 3: Just I mean, from my experience in this particular experience,

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Speaker 3: the level that was gone, to the level of detail

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Speaker 3: that was gone to create a fake PERSONA knowing that

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Speaker 3: if he was this person, I would fall more deeply

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Speaker 3: in love with him and trust him more was even

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Speaker 3: more callous in a lot of ways because he created

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Speaker 3: different people, like a different persona for different people. So

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Speaker 3: he just found out what it was exactly that would,

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Speaker 3: you know, get me to trust him and love him,

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Speaker 3: and he just double down on that.

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Speaker 1: It's creepy. That's probably not a very appropriate word, but

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Speaker 1: it's creepy that someone can go to cruel to the

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Speaker 1: extent the way I want to tell your story and

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Speaker 1: if you're you're happy with it, I'd like people just

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Speaker 1: to hear it in a chronological flow. So we'll talk

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Speaker 1: about obviously how it all ended, but let's talk about

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Speaker 1: you as a person growing up. Let's get a sense

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Speaker 1: of who you were.

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Speaker 2: Wow, we're going way back.

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Speaker 3: I had a pretty average upbringing, i'd say, very you know,

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Speaker 3: working middle class. I have two brothers, one of the

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Speaker 3: side of me. So I grew up playing a lot

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Speaker 3: of sport. If I couldn't catch a footy, I was

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Speaker 3: out of the family pretty much. So lots and lots

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Speaker 3: of sports. Very kind of wholesome upbringing Northern New South

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Speaker 3: Wales and Southeast Queensland. And you know, my parents both

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Speaker 3: worked really hard.

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Speaker 2: We had a.

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Speaker 3: Great education, and I've traveled a lot. So I did

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Speaker 3: the obligatory a couple of years overseas. Yeah, straight after,

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Speaker 3: you know, I got the backpack and went to London,

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Speaker 3: did that and came back and went to university in

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Speaker 3: all the New South Wales, studying sports science.

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Speaker 2: I mean, just study something you love.

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Speaker 1: I reckon.

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Speaker 3: So that's what I did, and I ended up in

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Speaker 3: sports marketing and traveled down to Sydney in nineteen ninety

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Speaker 3: eight straight after UNI and got a job at the

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Speaker 3: Olympics Stadium, which was a dream, you know, working on

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Speaker 3: that as they were building.

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Speaker 1: It build up for the two thousand.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and building the stadium and getting it all organized

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Speaker 3: and the membership base and the marketing and the website

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Speaker 3: and all of that back in the late nineties was

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Speaker 3: pretty cool. And then all of the events that led

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Speaker 3: into the Olympics to test the stadium, so I saw

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Speaker 3: some of the biggest sporting events in the world, like

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Speaker 3: it was incredible, and then of course the Olympics. So yeah,

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Speaker 3: it had sort of set my career up that way,

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Speaker 3: and moved on through to finance, worked for a hedge

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Speaker 3: fund where it's in Telco, and more recently worked in

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Speaker 3: global tech companies so eBay and go Daddy after pay Block.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So for all intents and purposes, life was pretty

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Speaker 1: interesting and a good childhood. Grew up and I think

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Speaker 1: things were going well for you. And the excitement of

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Speaker 1: the Sydney Olympics. Yeah, I obviously live in Sydney and

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Speaker 1: I worked at the Sydney Olympics and that was it

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Speaker 1: was just a great time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was an amazing to.

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Speaker 1: Being involved in involved in that and the lead up

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Speaker 1: to it. Then I can see why you're so excited.

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Speaker 1: You talk about working marketing and different things you did.

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Speaker 1: I've got to ask because you've made reference to it

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Speaker 1: in the book and I'm going off topic here, but

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Speaker 1: I'm just curious. The virtual shopping. Oh yeah, talk us

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Speaker 1: through that. What was that about?

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Speaker 2: Well, so it was when.

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Speaker 1: And I'm saying this was someone that still gets nervous

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Speaker 1: doing online shopping on their pon.

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Speaker 2: So I just I was just it's all right, you're

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Speaker 2: all good.

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Speaker 3: Well, it was when the virtual reality the headsets were

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Speaker 3: coming out. What we've seen at eBay was a really

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Speaker 3: huge spike in people buying the headsets, and mostly for gaming,

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Speaker 3: to be honest. But what it was bringing about was

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Speaker 3: some technology that sort of started to open up a

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Speaker 3: virtual world.

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Speaker 2: And what we did was.

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Speaker 3: We created a virtual reality department store where you could

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Speaker 3: shop with your eyes. So you put the headset on

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Speaker 3: and you literally just use your eyes attract your eyeball,

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Speaker 3: and if you held your eye on something for long enough,

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Speaker 3: it would pull up that item and then you could

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Speaker 3: adjust the sizing, the color, whatever it might be, and

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Speaker 3: then you could add it to kart and then you

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Speaker 3: could check out with your eyes.

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Speaker 1: Wow.

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Speaker 3: So it was a very immersive experience. There was obviously sound,

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Speaker 3: there was some of those dizzy things that went on.

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Speaker 3: I don't know, I get a bit dizzy when I

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Speaker 3: do it. But yeah, it was a world first and

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Speaker 3: we created it. You know, the code was written from scratch.

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Speaker 3: It was something that had never been done before. And

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Speaker 3: I ended up taking over to the US, to the

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Speaker 3: EBA team over in the US and showcasing it over

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Speaker 3: there in a big conference.

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Speaker 2: So it was it was an incredible project to work on.

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Speaker 1: Yeah I can imagine, Yeah I can find it. Did

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Speaker 1: it take off? Did it well?

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Speaker 3: The challenge is is not everyone have has the headsets,

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Speaker 3: so in terms of the being able to access it,

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Speaker 3: and then of course we worked with a huge department

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Speaker 3: store in Australia and so you need, you know, you

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Speaker 3: need these brands to be working with you. One of

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Speaker 3: the challenges was the items needed to be rendered in

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Speaker 3: terms of having that three sixty degree looks, so it

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Speaker 3: wasn't just a picture flat on a page. It was

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Speaker 3: a completely three dimensional rended So every product needed to

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Speaker 3: be three sixty rented like that.

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Speaker 2: Now that's a pretty expensive and long.

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Speaker 3: Process to go through for a very small portion of

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Speaker 3: people that would actually end up doing it. It was

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Speaker 3: really more of a pr opportunity to show what's possible

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Speaker 3: in the future and that a company like eBay, who

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Speaker 3: was one of the very first e com sites, actually

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Speaker 3: was progressive in their thinking about what the future of shopping.

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Speaker 2: Might look like.

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Speaker 3: I think another challenge is shopping, you know, for a

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Speaker 3: lot of people as a very social event, So to

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Speaker 3: do that in your lounde room on your own privately

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Speaker 3: can be quite a lonely experienced.

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Speaker 1: Taking the experience a wife.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so it was sort of you know, how do

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Speaker 3: you circumnavigate that with technology and how do you create that?

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Speaker 3: But you know, certainly it's definitely something that could be

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Speaker 3: possible in the future.

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Speaker 2: It's just it's a long journey.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, I'm very curious about it. But I think

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Speaker 1: it also gives a sense of who you are, Like

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Speaker 1: we haven't you know, the person that's fallen in love

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Speaker 1: with the Nigerian prince that just needs one hundred dollars

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Speaker 1: so he can get his two hundred million dollars. You're

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Speaker 1: not that person. You've grown up healthy family, active family,

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Speaker 1: social life, traveled overseas, working in businesses, cutting edge, Sydney Olympics.

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Speaker 1: You're a worldly person, not a native person. Is that

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Speaker 1: a fair way to describe Tracy at that stage?

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Speaker 3: That's definitely how I would see myself and incredibly lucky

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Speaker 3: to have all of these experiences and see and do

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Speaker 3: what I've done in my life.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you weren't walking around with blinkers just waiting for

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Speaker 1: someone to show you attention. Then you just fall immediately.

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Speaker 2: No, No, and I think it's fair to say that.

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Speaker 3: You know, at the time when I met Hamish, I

308
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Speaker 3: was a year out of my marriage and I was

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Speaker 3: going through the divorce and the separation, and you know,

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Speaker 3: a year post that, I felt like I was ready.

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Speaker 3: I definitely wasn't looking for someone to sweep me off

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Speaker 3: my feet or I definitely wasn't looking for another husband,

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Speaker 3: no thanks. And you know, I was in my early forties,

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Speaker 3: so having more children was probably off the cards as well.

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Speaker 3: So it wasn't like I was desperately looking for those things.

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Speaker 3: I was just looking for somebody to share my time with,

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Speaker 3: somebody who had similar values and morals to me, some companionship,

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Speaker 3: and yeah, just to kind of restart that side of

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Speaker 3: my life.

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Speaker 1: So how long were you married for.

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Speaker 3: I think we were married for eight years, but together

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Speaker 3: for like thirteen or something like that.

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Speaker 1: And then you had a daughter to that marriage.

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Speaker 2: Yes, I had a daughter, so she was born in

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Speaker 2: twenty ten.

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Speaker 1: And then when you've separated, going through all the emotional

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Speaker 1: dramas of financial separation, everything that happens a divorce, so

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Speaker 1: that that can be brutal. And you said twelve months

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Speaker 1: it takes you to recover. That's I suppose that's about

330
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Speaker 1: an average average all the time. And then you've got

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Speaker 1: your life life in order, You've got a place that

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Speaker 1: you're living in, you're living with your daughter. Everything's going fine,

333
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Speaker 1: but you've decided that okay, it's time to get back

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Speaker 1: into the world of living a life. You tried online dating.

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Speaker 3: Yes, well, I think the thing was when I met

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Speaker 3: my ex husband, you know, online dating wasn't a thing.

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Speaker 3: You know, I met him through friends and that's how

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Speaker 3: you built a relationship. And the old days, the good

339
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Speaker 3: old days, and so I was re entering a world,

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Speaker 3: you know where this was very new to me. And

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Speaker 3: at that time, I was, you know, I was working

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Speaker 3: a huge job at eBay, I was working long hours

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Speaker 3: building virtual reality department stores. I was, you know, almost

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Speaker 3: solo parenting. I have my child most of the time,

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Speaker 3: still working through the divorce. You know, these things take.

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Speaker 2: A long time.

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Speaker 3: So you know, I wasn't I wasn't going out really

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Speaker 3: at all, you know, and I was pretty pretty aware

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Speaker 3: that some awesome guy wasn't going to drop through my

350
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Speaker 3: ceiling while I was watching maths on a Monday night.

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Speaker 2: You know, I had to do something.

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Speaker 3: And you know, at that stage of your life, your

353
00:17:30,560 --> 00:17:33,640
Speaker 3: friends are all coupled up, and you know, it's it's

354
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Speaker 3: hard to meet people.

355
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Speaker 2: So what do you do? You know?

356
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Speaker 3: So, yeah, so I started, I you know, plunged headfirst

357
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Speaker 3: into the Sydney dating pool via dating apps.

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Speaker 1: I'm smirking here because I found it funny in your

359
00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:51,159
Speaker 1: book that your friends were living vicariously for you with

360
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Speaker 1: your successes and disasters on the online dating Yeah. So

361
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Speaker 1: it's you know, it's a brave new world. I have

362
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Speaker 1: no understanding about it. I can relate to watching masks

363
00:18:01,840 --> 00:18:04,240
Speaker 1: because when my relationships have been in bad times, I

364
00:18:04,240 --> 00:18:05,920
Speaker 1: watch that because that makes me feel better.

365
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Speaker 2: It's pretty you look at all the time, you look

366
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Speaker 2: at all.

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Speaker 1: The dysfunction there and go, I'm not that bad. So

368
00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:15,479
Speaker 1: I understand that. So I think a lot of people

369
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Speaker 1: get the sense of who you were at the time

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Speaker 1: that Okay, you've been through you've had your ups, you've

371
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Speaker 1: had your downs, your successful career, but you're getting back

372
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Speaker 1: into a social life and starting to live life again

373
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Speaker 1: after your marriage separation. What was it about Max, let's

374
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Speaker 1: refer to him as Max. What was it about Max

375
00:18:34,800 --> 00:18:37,919
Speaker 1: that talk us through the first contact, how it happened,

376
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Speaker 1: and just talk us through how the relationship developed.

377
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Speaker 3: I think, you know, it was pretty slim pickings back

378
00:18:43,119 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 3: in twenty sixteen, if I'm honestly from what I hear,

379
00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:49,879
Speaker 3: it's still slim pickings now. But you know there was

380
00:18:50,720 --> 00:18:55,159
Speaker 3: I swiped right on him because his photos look like

381
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,480
Speaker 3: he just looked normal, you know, and he had you know,

382
00:18:58,640 --> 00:19:02,560
Speaker 3: megawatts smiley atal geographic blue eyes, and you know, he

383
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,480
Speaker 3: in these photos he was doing things that it seemed,

384
00:19:05,720 --> 00:19:07,439
Speaker 3: you know, that he liked doing. He was running, he

385
00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,080
Speaker 3: was surfing, he was you know, just sort of have.

386
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Speaker 1: A fighter with his shirt off, which is.

387
00:19:12,440 --> 00:19:15,280
Speaker 3: No And there were no sedated tigers in Thailand. There

388
00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 3: was none of that action going on. And and he

389
00:19:18,440 --> 00:19:21,240
Speaker 3: wasn't wearing a bond Dutch hat, so you know, things

390
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:22,879
Speaker 3: were looking okay, so swipes right.

391
00:19:22,960 --> 00:19:24,200
Speaker 2: He just looked normal, I guess.

392
00:19:24,240 --> 00:19:27,080
Speaker 3: And it was funny because he'd reached out to me,

393
00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,480
Speaker 3: and I didn't get back to him for like three

394
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Speaker 3: weeks or something.

395
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Speaker 2: I don't know.

396
00:19:30,720 --> 00:19:33,679
Speaker 3: I was distracted and busy and working and whatever I

397
00:19:33,720 --> 00:19:37,120
Speaker 3: was doing. So our very first contact with him having

398
00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,080
Speaker 3: a bit of a jab at me saying, oh, he

399
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:41,879
Speaker 3: finally decided to have a chat to me, And I

400
00:19:41,920 --> 00:19:45,280
Speaker 3: think that's what started in terms of our connection, was

401
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,240
Speaker 3: there was this like that was this really good banter.

402
00:19:47,720 --> 00:19:50,280
Speaker 3: It was great conversation on the chat, and obviously then

403
00:19:50,320 --> 00:19:53,520
Speaker 3: we moved on to a phone a phone call, and

404
00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:56,200
Speaker 3: then we agreed to meet for dinner. But this all

405
00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:58,439
Speaker 3: took quite a long time because I was in a

406
00:19:58,440 --> 00:20:00,520
Speaker 3: situation I was working a lot, and I was looking

407
00:20:00,560 --> 00:20:03,480
Speaker 3: after my child most of the time, so I didn't

408
00:20:03,520 --> 00:20:05,240
Speaker 3: really you know, and I think I say it in

409
00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:07,359
Speaker 3: the book. You know, you have actually at that stage

410
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 3: of your life little time for actual dates and even

411
00:20:10,560 --> 00:20:12,960
Speaker 3: less time for dickheads. So you don't want to be

412
00:20:12,960 --> 00:20:15,800
Speaker 3: spending your time with someone that is not you know,

413
00:20:16,000 --> 00:20:19,080
Speaker 3: is not kind of connecting you with you in some way. So, yeah,

414
00:20:19,080 --> 00:20:22,440
Speaker 3: we have this connection, and he had what seemed to

415
00:20:22,480 --> 00:20:26,000
Speaker 3: be a very similar sort of oussy upbringing around the

416
00:20:26,040 --> 00:20:29,679
Speaker 3: same time, you know, in the seventies and eighties, so

417
00:20:29,760 --> 00:20:30,560
Speaker 3: we had a lot.

418
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Speaker 2: Of common reference points.

419
00:20:33,440 --> 00:20:36,280
Speaker 3: You know, his banter was great, there was great chat,

420
00:20:36,480 --> 00:20:39,280
Speaker 3: lots of laughs, very ausy bit of Alarican.

421
00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:41,480
Speaker 2: So it's just easy.

422
00:20:41,320 --> 00:20:42,800
Speaker 1: Period of how long Tracy this is?

423
00:20:42,960 --> 00:20:44,160
Speaker 2: Well, I think we connected.

424
00:20:44,200 --> 00:20:46,840
Speaker 3: I don't think we met after we connected on the app,

425
00:20:46,920 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 3: so probably about a month, maybe something like that, maybe

426
00:20:49,960 --> 00:20:52,040
Speaker 3: even longer. I can't remember now, but I remember it

427
00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:53,840
Speaker 3: been quite a long time. So there was a lot

428
00:20:53,840 --> 00:20:57,880
Speaker 3: of time to go back and forth and have these conversations,

429
00:20:57,960 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 3: and then of course, you know talk talk on the phone.

430
00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:03,480
Speaker 1: Okay, can I just make the point here because I

431
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:06,560
Speaker 1: just I want people to sort of really live what

432
00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,480
Speaker 1: you were going through there. That would give you some

433
00:21:09,520 --> 00:21:11,960
Speaker 1: comfort too, wouldn't it. It's not the type of person

434
00:21:12,000 --> 00:21:13,960
Speaker 1: why didn't you respond? And then sends you a hundred

435
00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 1: texts and you haven't responded in five minutes and where

436
00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:19,879
Speaker 1: have you been? Type? So even that sets up a

437
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:23,960
Speaker 1: base of normality of confidence well, this person's not a

438
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:27,160
Speaker 1: try hard. He's taking his time and it's just moving

439
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:29,560
Speaker 1: at a reasonable pace. Is that fear to describe? How?

440
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:31,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, it felt.

441
00:21:32,480 --> 00:21:35,679
Speaker 3: It felt really comfortable, and it didn't feel pushy like

442
00:21:35,720 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 3: you said. It just felt really normal. He seemed to understand,

443
00:21:40,920 --> 00:21:44,080
Speaker 3: you know, the situation I was in my corporate life,

444
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,400
Speaker 3: the life I had with my daughter, and he wasn't

445
00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:50,960
Speaker 3: sort of pushing into that. It was like, you know,

446
00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:53,600
Speaker 3: whenever you've got time, or do you have time, and

447
00:21:53,680 --> 00:21:55,960
Speaker 3: we'll catch up for a meal. And that's sort of

448
00:21:56,000 --> 00:21:57,639
Speaker 3: how it progressed. And it was like, okay, well in

449
00:21:57,680 --> 00:22:01,200
Speaker 3: a couple of weeks time, I've got this night. So

450
00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:04,080
Speaker 3: and that's what we agreed to. We agreed to meet.

451
00:22:04,840 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 1: Okay, So the exchange via the text messaging, then a

452
00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:13,600
Speaker 1: conversation and then a meal. Describe us on the I'm sorry,

453
00:22:13,640 --> 00:22:16,040
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm primed. Tell us about your first date.

454
00:22:17,080 --> 00:22:19,480
Speaker 3: This was actually this is what I did have to

455
00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 3: go through with the with the police.

456
00:22:21,920 --> 00:22:25,000
Speaker 1: Maybe it's a placeman in me because I'm thinking, okay, well, okay,

457
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,760
Speaker 1: tell us what happened on the first Yeah, that's it.

458
00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,080
Speaker 3: So the first date, he came and he can pick

459
00:22:31,160 --> 00:22:34,360
Speaker 3: me up in the city. He booked a restaurant. He'd

460
00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: planned the whole thing, which was great. It was like

461
00:22:36,400 --> 00:22:39,320
Speaker 3: one lessing I had to sort of worry about. And

462
00:22:39,560 --> 00:22:42,640
Speaker 3: I after work that day, I went for a drink

463
00:22:42,680 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 3: with a work colleague and we were just down in

464
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:45,760
Speaker 3: the city where he's.

465
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,439
Speaker 2: Going to pick me up and having a drink.

466
00:22:48,480 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 3: And he arrived early and we just ordered a drink

467
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,240
Speaker 3: and I said, hey, we've just ordered a drink. Why

468
00:22:56,240 --> 00:22:59,320
Speaker 3: don't you come in. You can meet my friend from

469
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 3: work and then we'll go.

470
00:23:00,880 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 2: And he was sort of like, oh.

471
00:23:02,600 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 3: First of all, it was like there's you know, there's

472
00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,360
Speaker 3: no parking here that it's a no parking zone. Don't

473
00:23:08,359 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 3: worry about it. I'll just you know, I'll wait a

474
00:23:10,160 --> 00:23:12,720
Speaker 3: few minutes. And I'm thinking, well, I've just literally I'm like,

475
00:23:12,840 --> 00:23:16,119
Speaker 3: I'm just going to have to skull this and and

476
00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 3: I said, no, what, you just come in.

477
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:18,680
Speaker 2: There's a park up around the corner.

478
00:23:18,680 --> 00:23:21,200
Speaker 3: I told him where he could park, and he kind

479
00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:25,000
Speaker 3: of got a little bit shirty. But it's always hard

480
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,800
Speaker 3: to tell with text and when you've not met anybody, impossible.

481
00:23:28,960 --> 00:23:30,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and he was like, look.

482
00:23:30,160 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 3: If you just want to meet me at the restaurant.

483
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:33,399
Speaker 3: I'll just meet you at the restaurant, or we can

484
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 3: do this another time, and knowing that it had taken

485
00:23:35,920 --> 00:23:39,320
Speaker 3: so long to organize this one night because of my schedule,

486
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 3: it was kind of like, oh, that's a bit, that's

487
00:23:42,080 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: a bit you know, bit brash or a bit you know.

488
00:23:45,680 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: I just it just felt a bit spicy.

489
00:23:47,800 --> 00:23:50,960
Speaker 3: And anyway, I said, no, no, no, well I'll finish

490
00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,000
Speaker 3: up and I'll come out. And it was all about

491
00:23:54,040 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 3: the fact he couldn't park and it was no parking

492
00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,320
Speaker 3: zone and all of this. Anyway, we go up to

493
00:23:58,400 --> 00:24:01,960
Speaker 3: the restaurant, which was in Pot's Point, and so I

494
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:03,760
Speaker 3: got in the car and it was the first time

495
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: I met him, and he was sitting down and I

496
00:24:06,080 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 3: remember having a little bit of like a sinking feeling

497
00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 3: my tummy because he just wasn't kind of like what

498
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:16,040
Speaker 3: he was in the photos. I mean, nobody is. And

499
00:24:16,080 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 3: then I thought, well, maybe I'm not what I look

500
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,720
Speaker 3: like in my photos either, but I didn't. I remember

501
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,679
Speaker 3: looking over in the in the car and thinking, oh,

502
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:26,600
Speaker 3: it's not that he's not all that.

503
00:24:28,960 --> 00:24:32,200
Speaker 1: I always thought with those dating apps, you'd be better off,

504
00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 1: wouldn't you. Underplaying what you look like and then you

505
00:24:34,800 --> 00:24:37,280
Speaker 1: look better than your picture. That would have to Yes,

506
00:24:37,920 --> 00:24:40,119
Speaker 1: just a theory. But yeah, I don't know.

507
00:24:40,160 --> 00:24:42,560
Speaker 3: Maybe the people don't get as many I don't know

508
00:24:42,600 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 3: what you call them, hits or like matches or whatever.

509
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:48,879
Speaker 1: Okay, so you're breaking that down. You've gone for a

510
00:24:48,920 --> 00:24:50,640
Speaker 1: drink with a girlfriend beforehand.

511
00:24:51,119 --> 00:24:52,200
Speaker 2: It was a guy from work.

512
00:24:52,280 --> 00:24:56,080
Speaker 1: Heah, it can't come in, and the reluctance. I'm trying

513
00:24:56,119 --> 00:24:58,600
Speaker 1: to think if I was in his spot, I could

514
00:24:58,640 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 1: make a good impression on the friend or whatever, come

515
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,199
Speaker 1: in and talk. So there was a reluctance for him

516
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:03,800
Speaker 1: to come in there.

517
00:25:03,640 --> 00:25:05,760
Speaker 3: There was a reluctance for him to do that. It

518
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: was all based on the fact he couldn't park, or

519
00:25:08,119 --> 00:25:11,520
Speaker 3: he'd been a no parking zone. Anyway, I got in

520
00:25:11,520 --> 00:25:13,960
Speaker 3: the car and I was like, oh, he's not all that.

521
00:25:14,080 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 3: And then we went up to the restaurant in Pot's

522
00:25:16,040 --> 00:25:20,320
Speaker 3: Point and we couldn't find a park and ironically, he

523
00:25:20,359 --> 00:25:23,360
Speaker 3: parked in a no parking zone. This doesn't matter, I'll

524
00:25:23,400 --> 00:25:26,480
Speaker 3: just pay the fine. And I was like, but you're

525
00:25:26,520 --> 00:25:30,119
Speaker 3: just really spicy about not parking. This is what was

526
00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,440
Speaker 3: going on in my head, and I was just like oh,

527
00:25:32,600 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: but you know, by that stage we'd had a few

528
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:38,680
Speaker 3: laughs and it felt really comfortable, and I was like, oh, well,

529
00:25:38,840 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 3: up to you. You know, it's your car, your license

530
00:25:42,359 --> 00:25:45,360
Speaker 3: or whatever. We went for dinner and it was really nice.

531
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:47,520
Speaker 3: It was pretty casual, it was nothing fancy. It was

532
00:25:47,600 --> 00:25:51,560
Speaker 3: just this beautiful Asian restaurant and had great conversation. I

533
00:25:51,600 --> 00:25:54,800
Speaker 3: can't remember if he drank. He didn't drink a lot

534
00:25:54,880 --> 00:25:57,040
Speaker 3: at all the whole relationship. And I think I had

535
00:25:57,040 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 3: a glass of wine and we ordered and had some

536
00:26:00,359 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 3: food and we had a laugh and it was a

537
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:08,320
Speaker 3: very pretty quick dinner. Actually, I was really tired. I've

538
00:26:08,320 --> 00:26:09,560
Speaker 3: been working really long hours.

539
00:26:09,600 --> 00:26:11,879
Speaker 2: And I think I yawned when he was that's not

540
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:12,960
Speaker 2: that's Tracy.

541
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 1: Well.

542
00:26:13,600 --> 00:26:19,439
Speaker 3: I think he was manologuing about something and I and I.

543
00:26:19,400 --> 00:26:21,439
Speaker 2: Said, I'm sorry, I'm so tiny. He said it's fine,

544
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:22,680
Speaker 2: we'll get you home.

545
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,800
Speaker 3: And there was no kind of like, oh god, you know,

546
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:29,439
Speaker 3: why are you so tired? It's only nine o'clock. He

547
00:26:29,600 --> 00:26:32,720
Speaker 3: was he was very caring and said that's fine, we'll

548
00:26:32,720 --> 00:26:35,359
Speaker 3: get you home. And he said I'll put you in

549
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 3: a cab. So we went, you know, we left the restaurant,

550
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:41,680
Speaker 3: didn't get a parking ticket, and that was our night.

551
00:26:41,720 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 3: He put me in a cab and that was that.

552
00:26:44,080 --> 00:26:46,720
Speaker 1: And what was your impressions after that? For the first

553
00:26:46,760 --> 00:26:47,439
Speaker 1: first catch up.

554
00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 3: I thought it was a really nice meal. You know,

555
00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 3: we'd had great conversation, we'd connected, we found out a

556
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,560
Speaker 3: little bit more about each other. He was really interested

557
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 3: in the work I was doing at the time, the

558
00:26:58,960 --> 00:27:02,600
Speaker 3: virtual reality depart and store. He asked a lot of questions.

559
00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:06,560
Speaker 3: He was a great listener. There was banter, you know,

560
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: it was it wasn't all serious. There was some laughs,

561
00:27:09,000 --> 00:27:11,440
Speaker 3: and it felt really easy and comfortable and he had

562
00:27:11,520 --> 00:27:13,679
Speaker 3: great chat and that was that.

563
00:27:14,320 --> 00:27:17,120
Speaker 1: Okay, so you left. That would be nice to catch

564
00:27:17,160 --> 00:27:19,879
Speaker 1: up with him again. Yeah, And who initiated that or

565
00:27:19,960 --> 00:27:22,000
Speaker 1: was the mutual so that let's do this again?

566
00:27:22,760 --> 00:27:25,879
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was probably in a text afterwards and it

567
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 3: was probably something along the lines. So, you know, that

568
00:27:28,280 --> 00:27:29,600
Speaker 3: was a really great dinner.

569
00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: Thank you.

570
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,560
Speaker 3: Yep, love to do it again if you're up for it. Sure, Yeah,

571
00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:35,600
Speaker 3: I'm up for that, you know. So it was it

572
00:27:35,640 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 3: was very casual, like there was nothing sort of formal

573
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: or stilted. It just felt like it flowed really.

574
00:27:41,720 --> 00:27:46,000
Speaker 1: Nicely, Okay, And how did the relationship progress past that point?

575
00:27:46,280 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: It became more regular.

576
00:27:47,760 --> 00:27:50,960
Speaker 3: Yeah, well it was kind of the time I had

577
00:27:51,000 --> 00:27:55,879
Speaker 3: available were every second weekend and then the odd the

578
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:58,679
Speaker 3: odd night during the week, you know, every couple of

579
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 3: weeks or whatever. So we just planned it around my schedule.

580
00:28:01,960 --> 00:28:05,159
Speaker 3: There was never any pressure for me to get babysitters

581
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 3: or anything like that. It was very much in my hands.

582
00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:11,159
Speaker 3: So we just planted around what my availability was, which

583
00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:13,800
Speaker 3: you know, in retrospect probably suited him quite nicely because

584
00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:15,359
Speaker 3: he was off doing a whole bunch of other things.

585
00:28:15,400 --> 00:28:19,720
Speaker 3: But yeah, just whenever I was available, he would he

586
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 3: would be available, and we'd go for meals, either in

587
00:28:23,440 --> 00:28:26,639
Speaker 3: the city or somewhere close to work. And then on

588
00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,080
Speaker 3: the weekends, I think the first sort of weekend experience

589
00:28:30,119 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 3: we had together, he picked me up and we went

590
00:28:32,160 --> 00:28:35,200
Speaker 3: up to Palm Beach and he took the paddle boards

591
00:28:35,280 --> 00:28:37,840
Speaker 3: and we went paddleboarding on Pittwater and we walked up

592
00:28:37,880 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 3: to baron Joey Headland and had a beautiful, beautiful walk

593
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:46,040
Speaker 3: and then you know, came back down, got some cheese

594
00:28:46,040 --> 00:28:49,600
Speaker 3: and a beer and watched the moon rise over Avalon Headland.

595
00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,240
Speaker 3: And you know, and then that was the end of

596
00:28:52,240 --> 00:28:54,200
Speaker 3: the day. He dropped me home and went on back

597
00:28:54,240 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 3: to Bontai himself.

598
00:28:55,280 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 1: Okay, so the pace you were comfortable with the pace.

599
00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 2: It was a slow burn, right, yeah, very slow burn.

600
00:29:01,320 --> 00:29:03,920
Speaker 1: You wanted to move quicker, but it was just sort

601
00:29:03,960 --> 00:29:06,120
Speaker 1: of or it was the way you were both both were.

602
00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:07,960
Speaker 2: I think it was just the way we both were.

603
00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,960
Speaker 3: You know, I was still coming out of my separation

604
00:29:11,120 --> 00:29:13,800
Speaker 3: and divorce, and yeah, I wasn't in a rush. And

605
00:29:13,840 --> 00:29:16,760
Speaker 3: I wasn't in a rush too, you know, like I said,

606
00:29:16,760 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 3: I wasn't looking for another husband or to have more

607
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 3: children or anything like that. So it's just I was

608
00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:24,000
Speaker 3: just really comfortable with the way it was. We had

609
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:28,360
Speaker 3: a great time. I knew that my circumstances in situation

610
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:32,080
Speaker 3: didn't allow much more than that. So that was on me,

611
00:29:32,600 --> 00:29:35,240
Speaker 3: which you know, it was what it was. And then

612
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:37,120
Speaker 3: and then he seemed comfortable with that.

613
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,240
Speaker 1: What did he reveal about himself as this relationship was developing.

614
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:44,479
Speaker 3: Oh, I mean there are a lot of stories, and

615
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,400
Speaker 3: you know, this is over the course of sort of

616
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:51,200
Speaker 3: six or seven nine months. In the beginning, you know,

617
00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,400
Speaker 3: everything from his family situation where he told me his

618
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:58,960
Speaker 3: parents had passed away in a plane crash, so he

619
00:29:59,040 --> 00:30:01,239
Speaker 3: was sort of left in often quite young and grew

620
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:01,520
Speaker 3: up in.

621
00:30:01,520 --> 00:30:03,800
Speaker 2: The foster system. So there was a lot of talk

622
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:04,240
Speaker 2: about that.

623
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:08,440
Speaker 3: There was a lot of talk about sort of, you know,

624
00:30:08,480 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 3: his career because you know, of course, we were working

625
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 3: full time in corporate at this point, so it takes

626
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 3: such a big portion of your day. So when you

627
00:30:15,840 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 3: catch up at the end of the day, that's sort

628
00:30:17,240 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 3: of for what happened at work today, What have you

629
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,000
Speaker 3: been doing, what you been working on? And he told

630
00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: me he was a chief financial investment officer for a

631
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,640
Speaker 3: family office, so working on a lot of sort of

632
00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,480
Speaker 3: al turning investments and hedge funds and things that I

633
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,680
Speaker 3: knew a little bit about, but not a lot. And

634
00:30:35,320 --> 00:30:37,600
Speaker 3: so there was a lot of chit chat about his

635
00:30:38,120 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 3: line of work and what he'd done and what he'd

636
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,560
Speaker 3: done in the States. He told me he'd spent sixteen

637
00:30:43,640 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 3: years in America and he'd only come home about a

638
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:50,000
Speaker 3: year beforehand, and he was sort of rebuilding his career here,

639
00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:52,720
Speaker 3: looking for a more simple life and didn't want to

640
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 3: be on Wall Street and all of this kind of crap.

641
00:30:55,240 --> 00:30:56,440
Speaker 2: Lots of stories, so.

642
00:30:57,080 --> 00:30:59,479
Speaker 1: We've got this, you know, it's a heart string pull

643
00:30:59,520 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 1: out of his parents died in the plane crash that

644
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 1: he happened to survive, raised by foster family. Then worked

645
00:31:08,800 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: in New York. Was it sixteen years? Was there during

646
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: September eleven? And lost a friend as he's walking to

647
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:18,600
Speaker 1: the tower to meet the friend. All these things, they're

648
00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:23,480
Speaker 1: not unbelievable, but they're sort of I get the sense

649
00:31:23,520 --> 00:31:25,760
Speaker 1: that he was sort of dripped feeding little bits and

650
00:31:25,800 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: pieces about him, about himself, creating this persona of the person,

651
00:31:31,160 --> 00:31:34,120
Speaker 1: because I see that there were at times when he

652
00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:37,040
Speaker 1: was unavailable or he was just sort of reclusive, and

653
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:38,920
Speaker 1: you're thinking, well, he's been through a lot of trauma

654
00:31:38,920 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: in his life. This is just make excuses. Of course,

655
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:43,720
Speaker 1: we haven't even We've just called him Max, But at

656
00:31:43,720 --> 00:31:47,960
Speaker 1: this stage you knew him as Max Taveta. Did you

657
00:31:48,000 --> 00:31:50,760
Speaker 1: see any documents with his name on it or anything?

658
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,680
Speaker 3: I picked up mail from his letter box that was

659
00:31:53,720 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 3: addressed to Max Tevita.

660
00:31:54,880 --> 00:31:58,400
Speaker 1: Because when I'm looking through the process of this, I'm thinking, well,

661
00:31:58,440 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: if I was started seeing someone that I liked, I didn't,

662
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: I wouldn't be checking their names or going through Well,

663
00:32:04,840 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: let's let's have a lot.

664
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: It was the last time you asked someone for one

665
00:32:08,080 --> 00:32:09,680
Speaker 3: hundred points by D when you met them.

666
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:11,400
Speaker 1: I don't know, but after talking.

667
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,560
Speaker 2: To you, maybe we show maybe it should be good.

668
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,880
Speaker 3: It is interesting about the stories, because I think this

669
00:32:18,000 --> 00:32:22,240
Speaker 3: is really important to mention, is that when you recount

670
00:32:22,240 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 3: a story, you tell the whole story. What's missed in

671
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:31,320
Speaker 3: that is that that story came in probably ten, twelve,

672
00:32:31,440 --> 00:32:35,400
Speaker 3: fifteen installments, and it's a little bit each time, and

673
00:32:35,440 --> 00:32:37,240
Speaker 3: so it's not until you look backwards that you go,

674
00:32:37,400 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: that's the whole story, and oh my gosh, that seems

675
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 3: so far fetched. But at the time when it's just

676
00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,040
Speaker 3: a little piece of information, and then the conversation moves on,

677
00:32:47,200 --> 00:32:49,800
Speaker 3: and then two weeks later there's another piece of conversation

678
00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:52,480
Speaker 3: that relates back to that story. Now he was clever

679
00:32:52,560 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 3: because everything matched. But it was not like these stories

680
00:32:56,800 --> 00:32:59,120
Speaker 3: came out in one go, because if they had of

681
00:32:59,160 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 3: they would have seen so crazy.

682
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:05,200
Speaker 1: That's a good point, that's yeah.

683
00:33:05,240 --> 00:33:08,840
Speaker 3: But when when I'm telling these stories, of course I

684
00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:11,680
Speaker 3: tell them in one piece because it's the full story.

685
00:33:11,720 --> 00:33:15,280
Speaker 3: And that's how we that's how we express how how

686
00:33:15,360 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 3: ridiculous these things are. That he said, but in reality

687
00:33:18,400 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 3: they came in bits and pieces, and this is the

688
00:33:21,240 --> 00:33:23,360
Speaker 3: death by a thousand cuts. This is the course of

689
00:33:23,440 --> 00:33:26,960
Speaker 3: control that occurs, because how did it have been in

690
00:33:26,960 --> 00:33:27,280
Speaker 3: one go?

691
00:33:27,440 --> 00:33:29,760
Speaker 2: You'd go, come on, mate.

692
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,640
Speaker 3: Really, So I think that's important to mention because it

693
00:33:32,720 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 3: creeps up on you.

694
00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,840
Speaker 1: That's very important to mention, because you're quite right. If

695
00:33:37,840 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: I put it all there and go, this is what

696
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 1: he's told you, I'd be going, Tracy, look, yeah, but

697
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:47,560
Speaker 1: if it's have you got family? My parents passed away?

698
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:48,440
Speaker 1: That could be the first.

699
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 3: That was literally the first conversation of it. And then

700
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:52,960
Speaker 3: you move on to oh, what are we going to

701
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:53,680
Speaker 3: order for dinner?

702
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:57,560
Speaker 1: I'm sorry your parents have passed away? And then plane

703
00:33:57,640 --> 00:34:03,560
Speaker 1: crashes All planes scare me because of what's happened. Yah. Yeah, quite,

704
00:34:03,640 --> 00:34:06,240
Speaker 1: that's a valid point, and that's you know, and that's

705
00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 1: how they manipulate, that's how they they do it. He

706
00:34:09,280 --> 00:34:12,719
Speaker 1: can't present with all these things up up front, even

707
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: like over in New York. Well he worked in New

708
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 1: York for sixteen years. Good chance he was there during

709
00:34:17,400 --> 00:34:18,240
Speaker 1: September eleventh.

710
00:34:18,320 --> 00:34:21,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, I just had to put the dates together, and yeah,

711
00:34:21,200 --> 00:34:23,880
Speaker 3: it wasn't unusual I mean, that was a big that

712
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,640
Speaker 3: was a big story. But you know, there's this thing,

713
00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:28,759
Speaker 3: you know, you make the life so big that you

714
00:34:28,760 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 3: can't not believe it.

715
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,480
Speaker 2: Because the other.

716
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,480
Speaker 3: Thing to mention is the level of detail he went

717
00:34:34,520 --> 00:34:37,600
Speaker 3: to when he did tell a big story. That story

718
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,279
Speaker 3: in particular, when I asked him, it wasn't like I

719
00:34:40,440 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: was there and the plane hit and I was under

720
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:44,439
Speaker 3: and I had to run away and that was that's

721
00:34:44,480 --> 00:34:47,080
Speaker 3: the end of the story. He went into detail about

722
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:50,520
Speaker 3: first and last names of people that work with him

723
00:34:50,680 --> 00:34:54,000
Speaker 3: on Wall Street, what floor they worked on, what department

724
00:34:54,040 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 3: of what company they worked for, how he knew them,

725
00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,080
Speaker 3: how old they were, their wives' names and last names. Like,

726
00:35:01,320 --> 00:35:04,080
Speaker 3: there was so much detail that he went into when

727
00:35:04,120 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: telling that story that you can't just go come on.

728
00:35:07,560 --> 00:35:09,719
Speaker 1: But it gives it some credibility, doesn't it if the

729
00:35:09,760 --> 00:35:11,840
Speaker 1: way someone's real relaying a story that.

730
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 2: Was completely made up.

731
00:35:13,880 --> 00:35:16,520
Speaker 3: So I don't know, maybe he'd told the story before,

732
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:19,200
Speaker 3: Maybe he'd just made it up on the spot. Maybe

733
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 3: he was playing a game with himself to see how

734
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:25,439
Speaker 3: clever he could be, and how like nothing faulted and

735
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 3: everything lined up. Yeah, strange, it's incredible talent.

736
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: Well in Wondergred, Well, he.

737
00:35:33,239 --> 00:35:35,360
Speaker 1: Had been a fraud ser and living a large portion

738
00:35:35,440 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 1: of his life ripping that people off. So yeah, he

739
00:35:38,239 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 1: had to have some skills in that era. Did you do,

740
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:45,719
Speaker 1: because most people these days jump on social media and

741
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:48,520
Speaker 1: have a look around. Did you were you curious to

742
00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,320
Speaker 1: what his profile was on social media?

743
00:35:51,440 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

744
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:55,120
Speaker 3: I think you should always deep stalk people that you're

745
00:35:55,120 --> 00:35:56,040
Speaker 3: about to meet.

746
00:35:56,120 --> 00:35:58,720
Speaker 1: Call it stalking. We talk against stalking on the shape,

747
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:00,840
Speaker 1: but I think everyone, yeah.

748
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:04,080
Speaker 3: I think you should investigate people that you're that you're

749
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 3: looking to meet, that you've never met before.

750
00:36:05,680 --> 00:36:06,919
Speaker 2: So yes, of course they did.

751
00:36:07,440 --> 00:36:10,920
Speaker 3: He had preempted that and he said, you, I'm not

752
00:36:11,040 --> 00:36:11,880
Speaker 3: on social media.

753
00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:13,480
Speaker 2: I don't agree with it.

754
00:36:13,600 --> 00:36:15,880
Speaker 3: I don't want anyone to know stuff about my life,

755
00:36:15,920 --> 00:36:18,120
Speaker 3: like I want a private life. You know, there was

756
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,160
Speaker 3: an again it was it was a story that went

757
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 3: with it and an excuse. Now, it's one thing not

758
00:36:25,680 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 3: to have a social media profile. At that time, Cath

759
00:36:29,160 --> 00:36:31,920
Speaker 3: didn't have social media profile. It shouldn't even on LinkedIn.

760
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 3: So I do have friends that don't have a social

761
00:36:34,080 --> 00:36:38,480
Speaker 3: media profile, and that's fine, you know, that's that's everyone's choice.

762
00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:40,359
Speaker 2: What was weird was.

763
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 3: That there was no digital footprint of Max to picture.

764
00:36:43,200 --> 00:36:47,000
Speaker 3: So yes, I did search, and again I think I

765
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:49,000
Speaker 3: go into this in the book. It would be after

766
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:51,840
Speaker 3: we'd met, which was like generally a dinner, probably be

767
00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:54,040
Speaker 3: like ten or eleven at night. I'm lying in bed,

768
00:36:54,080 --> 00:36:57,279
Speaker 3: I just done a big day, and I'm searching up

769
00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,600
Speaker 3: things that he may have said, just a double check

770
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 3: or to research or what have you, and nothing would

771
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:07,440
Speaker 3: come up. And you know, Max Devita doesn't exist online.

772
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,160
Speaker 3: You know, there is no digital footprint of Max Devita

773
00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,720
Speaker 3: because he actually is a fictitious character. But at eleven

774
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,400
Speaker 3: or eleven thirty at night, when I'm exhausted and nothing

775
00:37:17,440 --> 00:37:19,600
Speaker 3: comes up, and I'm scrolling and I do another search,

776
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:21,600
Speaker 3: and I'm just I end up putting the phone on

777
00:37:21,640 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 3: the side bench and going to sleep. And then at

778
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:28,600
Speaker 3: six am the next day that it all starts again. Yeah,

779
00:37:28,640 --> 00:37:30,759
Speaker 3: and you just you get distracted and you're busy, And

780
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,719
Speaker 3: I think this is really interesting thing is that vulnerability

781
00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,560
Speaker 3: can come in a lot of ways. And you know,

782
00:37:36,640 --> 00:37:38,359
Speaker 3: I was vulnerable at the time because I was going

783
00:37:38,360 --> 00:37:42,320
Speaker 3: through a divorce. But I was also distracted. I was tired,

784
00:37:42,920 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 3: I was bringing up a child, pretty much on my own.

785
00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,040
Speaker 3: I was, you know, there was a lot going on,

786
00:37:48,320 --> 00:37:50,759
Speaker 3: and you know, I didn't have hours to just to

787
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,760
Speaker 3: sit there and throw through the internet trying to find

788
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 3: but yes, I did. You know, I checked out plane

789
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,680
Speaker 3: crashes nineteen seventy five, you know, nineteen seventy eight, plane crashes,

790
00:37:58,719 --> 00:37:59,200
Speaker 3: whatever date.

791
00:37:59,280 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 2: He told me.

792
00:37:59,800 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 3: Well, and I'd look and I couldn't find anything. And

793
00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:04,759
Speaker 3: then you know, of course again it's eleven thirty at night,

794
00:38:04,800 --> 00:38:06,120
Speaker 3: and I'm thinking I've just got to go to bed,

795
00:38:06,760 --> 00:38:08,560
Speaker 3: and then he moves on.

796
00:38:08,600 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 1: And you're balancing all that up, and I understand all

797
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 1: the chaos of just getting through life with all the

798
00:38:14,040 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: things that you got going. But okay, you're not getting

799
00:38:17,200 --> 00:38:21,480
Speaker 1: the footprint on social media or digital. But there's a

800
00:38:21,480 --> 00:38:24,640
Speaker 1: real person. There's a person telling you he does exist.

801
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 1: Because there he's sharing my bed with me. I know

802
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 1: he's there. It's not or it doesn't appear to be fictional.

803
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 1: How did the relationship progress? When did it become that

804
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:38,919
Speaker 1: you call yourself a couple or you're exclusive to each other?

805
00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: And how did that evolve?

806
00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:44,400
Speaker 2: I don't know, because I don't know. In your forties,

807
00:38:44,920 --> 00:38:47,560
Speaker 2: like you, my boyfriend, what.

808
00:38:47,440 --> 00:38:50,720
Speaker 1: Do you call someone yet partners.

809
00:38:51,440 --> 00:38:51,840
Speaker 2: I don't know.

810
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:53,640
Speaker 1: He isn't asking me. You're going around with me?

811
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, you go out with men.

812
00:38:56,160 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 3: I mean, from my perspective, it was pretty much from

813
00:38:58,440 --> 00:39:01,400
Speaker 3: the moment I met him, Know, I wasn't seeing anyone else.

814
00:39:01,480 --> 00:39:03,719
Speaker 3: I was spending all my spare time with him that

815
00:39:03,800 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 3: I could. I was very much invested in the in

816
00:39:06,600 --> 00:39:11,080
Speaker 3: the relationship. From his point of view, I don't know,

817
00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,479
Speaker 3: but yeah, I mean it sort of progressed over time.

818
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:22,400
Speaker 3: It was a very intimate, emotionally intimate relationship. Physical intimacy

819
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,640
Speaker 3: was sort of like that took a lot longer. He

820
00:39:25,800 --> 00:39:27,640
Speaker 3: was kind of a bit weird in that way.

821
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:30,680
Speaker 1: So, yeah, I saw in the book you questioned him

822
00:39:30,719 --> 00:39:33,279
Speaker 1: about that and he came up with it's a slow

823
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:34,000
Speaker 1: slow burn.

824
00:39:34,040 --> 00:39:37,200
Speaker 3: I like, yeah, this way, Yeah, what starts with what

825
00:39:37,200 --> 00:39:38,920
Speaker 3: do you say? What starts through the bang ends in

826
00:39:38,960 --> 00:39:42,280
Speaker 3: a fizzle. I was like, well, that's a big, pretty

827
00:39:42,280 --> 00:39:51,200
Speaker 3: big fizzle in the end. But it was a big fizzle. Yeah, look,

828
00:39:52,239 --> 00:39:55,040
Speaker 3: you know that was just that was just him. But

829
00:39:55,840 --> 00:40:00,920
Speaker 3: I guess the relationship felt incredibly safe because you know,

830
00:40:01,080 --> 00:40:04,000
Speaker 3: the conversations we had were at such a deep level.

831
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,839
Speaker 3: He sort of presented this level of emotional intelligence and

832
00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:13,440
Speaker 3: empathy and compassion. And you know, remember he was a

833
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:16,719
Speaker 3: phenomenal listener, so he just had to listen to the

834
00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:18,680
Speaker 3: things I was saying and present those back to me.

835
00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:22,440
Speaker 3: And that felt very intimate and close and you know,

836
00:40:22,680 --> 00:40:24,359
Speaker 3: very secure, very safe.

837
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:28,000
Speaker 1: And it was like you were both exposing yourself emotionally

838
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:31,120
Speaker 1: exposing yourself, and you felt secure and secure in that.

839
00:40:31,440 --> 00:40:34,040
Speaker 1: And it got to the point where you introduced your

840
00:40:34,120 --> 00:40:34,719
Speaker 1: daughter to him.

841
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, after quite a while, I introduced her because I

842
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,120
Speaker 3: was on the phone to him a lot, and she'd

843
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:42,240
Speaker 3: often overhear.

844
00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 2: A conversation how old she was.

845
00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 3: She would have been five and a half six six,

846
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,360
Speaker 3: something like this, and she just knew as Max on

847
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:56,880
Speaker 3: the phone, and you know, he was very engaging. So

848
00:40:56,920 --> 00:41:00,239
Speaker 3: he called her, you know, Rascal and you know, hey,

849
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,439
Speaker 3: what's the rascal up to? And you know, he every

850
00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,080
Speaker 3: time he'd come and see me or meet with me,

851
00:41:06,200 --> 00:41:09,640
Speaker 3: he'd bring a little packet of like, you know, chocolate

852
00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 3: freckles to leave for her, and you know, just really

853
00:41:13,600 --> 00:41:16,759
Speaker 3: what I thought were thoughtful things at the time. And

854
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,960
Speaker 3: so they would have this conversation on you know, on

855
00:41:20,120 --> 00:41:22,919
Speaker 3: speaker quite a lot but it did take a long

856
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 3: time for me to introduce him to her because I

857
00:41:25,400 --> 00:41:27,279
Speaker 3: would just see him when I you know, when I

858
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,000
Speaker 3: had spare time when she was with her dad.

859
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:31,799
Speaker 2: So you know, they go along really well.

860
00:41:31,840 --> 00:41:34,880
Speaker 3: I mean, he he just sort of matched her energy.

861
00:41:35,040 --> 00:41:40,719
Speaker 3: He was very engaging. He's very knock about, kind of

862
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 3: jovial guys. So you know, there were a lot of

863
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:46,200
Speaker 3: laughs and a lot of banter again, which you know

864
00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:46,880
Speaker 3: that suited her.

865
00:41:48,239 --> 00:41:50,240
Speaker 1: Very good way to your heart, isn't it if you've

866
00:41:50,280 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 1: got a child and a child enjoys spending time with Max.

867
00:41:53,600 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 3: It's if someone engages with your child and shows interest

868
00:41:57,600 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 3: and it's easy, then that's a tick. We didn't really

869
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,240
Speaker 3: spend weekends together or anything like that. It was always,

870
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 3: you know, holidays is when they spent the most time together,

871
00:42:08,640 --> 00:42:11,440
Speaker 3: which sort of happened, you know, more towards the end

872
00:42:11,520 --> 00:42:13,839
Speaker 3: of the relationship. My mom came on holidays with us.

873
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 3: He built a relationship with my mom with my family,

874
00:42:17,560 --> 00:42:20,080
Speaker 3: you know, so there was a bit of closeness there

875
00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 3: as well.

876
00:42:21,120 --> 00:42:24,320
Speaker 1: A couple of things where he made excuses last moment

877
00:42:24,400 --> 00:42:27,600
Speaker 1: excuses not to meet with your friends or commit to

878
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 1: a function and not turn up to a function. You

879
00:42:30,200 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: look back now and again with all that piece together,

880
00:42:32,800 --> 00:42:35,480
Speaker 1: But at the time, yeah, he was an investment banker

881
00:42:35,600 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: or the work he was doing, and he was busy

882
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,080
Speaker 1: all the time, and these things happened. So talk us

883
00:42:41,080 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 1: through that. Where you'd line up to meet your friend.

884
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:49,080
Speaker 1: I love your friend. What's her name, Caath? She We've

885
00:42:49,080 --> 00:42:52,560
Speaker 1: got to get her in the police. She spotted him, amlawa.

886
00:42:52,719 --> 00:42:55,600
Speaker 3: She did, she did her bidy sensors were going off

887
00:42:55,600 --> 00:42:58,759
Speaker 3: from the beginning, and you know, cars incredible. I've known

888
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:01,680
Speaker 3: her for nearly twenty years. And you know, the way

889
00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:05,239
Speaker 3: that Greg Barrup described it in the podcast was it's

890
00:43:05,360 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 3: like being in an illusionist show. So when you're sitting

891
00:43:08,320 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 3: in the front row and the illusionist is doing all

892
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:13,920
Speaker 3: the tricks, you don't see any of them because you're

893
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 3: just you're in the front row. But if you're standing

894
00:43:16,719 --> 00:43:19,560
Speaker 3: side of stage and you're watching these tricks happen, you

895
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:23,240
Speaker 3: can see everything that's going on. And Kath was standing

896
00:43:23,280 --> 00:43:24,120
Speaker 3: side of stage.

897
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,239
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a very good way of describing it. And

898
00:43:27,600 --> 00:43:32,319
Speaker 1: I can understand you would have been seeing Max and

899
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:35,239
Speaker 1: reporting back to kathgo and this happened that happened, and

900
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,480
Speaker 1: that's strange. That's strange. So yeah, the death of the

901
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,279
Speaker 1: parents in the plane crash, and that he happened to

902
00:43:41,320 --> 00:43:44,239
Speaker 1: survive and woke up unconscious, and all the tragedies and

903
00:43:44,320 --> 00:43:47,800
Speaker 1: all that. She's getting that all in one lump, looking

904
00:43:48,040 --> 00:43:52,520
Speaker 1: further away. But tell us about what because I like

905
00:43:52,560 --> 00:43:55,880
Speaker 1: her attitude, like she was a good friend, like really

906
00:43:55,880 --> 00:43:58,879
Speaker 1: trying to just take a step back.

907
00:43:59,080 --> 00:44:03,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, And Kath is a really curious person, and she

908
00:44:04,280 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 3: always asks a lot of questions. So where some friends

909
00:44:08,480 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 3: or you know, some relationships, you're like, oh, how's Max,

910
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:13,600
Speaker 3: and you go, yeah, good, we're going you know, we're

911
00:44:13,600 --> 00:44:15,239
Speaker 3: going for dinner, or we're going to buy her next

912
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:18,520
Speaker 3: weekend or whatever. That would be the end of the conversation,

913
00:44:18,640 --> 00:44:22,840
Speaker 3: whereas Kath follows up with questions and constantly curious about

914
00:44:22,840 --> 00:44:26,120
Speaker 3: what's going on. And of course her senses were going

915
00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,520
Speaker 3: off as well, so she was trying to get information

916
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,759
Speaker 3: and really trying to understand, and she was listening to

917
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:35,760
Speaker 3: all of this stuff, and you know, to the point

918
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:39,200
Speaker 3: where she took me for breakfast one morning. And I

919
00:44:39,200 --> 00:44:42,000
Speaker 3: write about this in the book, and Kath, like I said,

920
00:44:42,000 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 3: I've known her for the best part of twenty years.

921
00:44:44,880 --> 00:44:48,440
Speaker 3: I've never seen this woman cry, not once. And she's

922
00:44:48,480 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 3: sitting across the breakfast table from me, and she's holding

923
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,239
Speaker 3: my hand, and I'm thinking, oh my goodness, she's going

924
00:44:54,280 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 3: to tell me she's got cancer or something bad has happened.

925
00:44:58,880 --> 00:44:59,960
Speaker 2: And I said, what's wrong?

926
00:45:00,200 --> 00:45:02,480
Speaker 3: And she said, I don't know how to say this

927
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:04,759
Speaker 3: to you, trace, but I just don't think Max is

928
00:45:05,440 --> 00:45:08,759
Speaker 3: who he says he is. I'm really worried about you

929
00:45:08,760 --> 00:45:11,759
Speaker 3: investing your superannuation with him now. She is the only

930
00:45:11,800 --> 00:45:14,120
Speaker 3: person I told I was doing that. Probably she was

931
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: the only one that asked. But also too, we don't

932
00:45:16,360 --> 00:45:18,440
Speaker 3: talk about our money. We don't talk about who we're

933
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 3: investing with. We don't talk about how much we earn.

934
00:45:21,239 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 3: You know, it is a taboo subject in a lot

935
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 3: of in a lot of ways, it's private. And she

936
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:29,360
Speaker 3: was asking those questions and getting that information, and she

937
00:45:29,520 --> 00:45:33,040
Speaker 3: was so worried because in the background, she was writing

938
00:45:33,320 --> 00:45:37,440
Speaker 3: to MIT and these you know, these companies that he

939
00:45:37,480 --> 00:45:39,640
Speaker 3: said he'd worked for in America, and she was trying

940
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,759
Speaker 3: to get employee records and trying to see whether he

941
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:46,840
Speaker 3: was actually a student at that university. And she was

942
00:45:46,840 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 3: trying to do her own background. This is where she

943
00:45:49,120 --> 00:45:51,160
Speaker 3: would be great and at place she was building a

944
00:45:51,200 --> 00:45:54,400
Speaker 3: dossier of her own. But yet at this point she

945
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:58,239
Speaker 3: didn't have anything. She just knew it wasn't quite adding up,

946
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,239
Speaker 3: just didn't feel right, didn't all right. And she's she

947
00:46:01,320 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 3: says to me, you know, I'm just really worried. And I,

948
00:46:04,840 --> 00:46:08,200
Speaker 3: you know, and I and I said to her, and

949
00:46:08,560 --> 00:46:09,439
Speaker 3: this is the other thing.

950
00:46:09,520 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: You know. She hadn't met him. And I said to her, Kat,

951
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,040
Speaker 2: but you haven't met him. You don't know.

952
00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 3: You don't know him like I do. You don't you

953
00:46:17,600 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 3: haven't heard the conversations we've had. You he's got my back,

954
00:46:21,040 --> 00:46:23,919
Speaker 3: he's got my best interests at heart. You'll see, You'll

955
00:46:23,960 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 3: see when you meet him.

956
00:46:25,440 --> 00:46:27,000
Speaker 1: You're in your love bubble too.

957
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 3: Of course I have my Rose could classes on, and

958
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 3: I wanted her to get to know him the way

959
00:46:32,120 --> 00:46:35,120
Speaker 3: that the way that I did. He was very socially awkward,

960
00:46:35,640 --> 00:46:39,160
Speaker 3: so getting him to meet friends, because he had reniqued

961
00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,400
Speaker 3: on so many different occasions, was tricky. And I didn't

962
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:45,960
Speaker 3: have a lot of availability either. So when I was

963
00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:50,880
Speaker 3: available or had a schedule, we wanted to spend time together.

964
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:54,319
Speaker 2: So that was really that was a difficult thing.

965
00:46:54,320 --> 00:46:57,600
Speaker 3: But anyway, we finally got a time to have dinner

966
00:46:57,640 --> 00:47:00,200
Speaker 3: and had dinner with her and her husband, and you know,

967
00:47:00,280 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: she just perpet him with questions, and you know, her

968
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,080
Speaker 3: husband walked away. Go no, you know, if you weren't

969
00:47:07,120 --> 00:47:09,480
Speaker 3: so suspect on him, I think he was a really

970
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,719
Speaker 3: great guy. And of course she was building this this

971
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 3: folder of information about him so that she could have

972
00:47:15,239 --> 00:47:18,520
Speaker 3: handed it to me so that without any doubt I

973
00:47:18,560 --> 00:47:20,680
Speaker 3: would believe what she was saying, because she knew that

974
00:47:20,760 --> 00:47:23,359
Speaker 3: I was so in love with him, and she didn't

975
00:47:23,400 --> 00:47:24,879
Speaker 3: want to ruin our friendship either.

976
00:47:24,880 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: This is a twenty year friendship. This is not something

977
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:27,719
Speaker 2: down the toilet.

978
00:47:28,719 --> 00:47:30,839
Speaker 1: If she pushed too hard, that would almost be well,

979
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:32,440
Speaker 1: you're going to make a choice between him and me,

980
00:47:32,560 --> 00:47:33,800
Speaker 1: And yeah, I would.

981
00:47:33,600 --> 00:47:35,839
Speaker 3: Have defended him, or I would have tipped him off,

982
00:47:36,000 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 3: you know. And so she she knew she had to

983
00:47:39,120 --> 00:47:42,640
Speaker 3: play it really carefully. But I'm so you know, I'm

984
00:47:42,680 --> 00:47:45,840
Speaker 3: so grateful for you know, the questions she asked me

985
00:47:46,040 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 3: and the fact she had the guts to take me

986
00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:50,880
Speaker 3: for breakfast and say, I'm really worried because a lot

987
00:47:50,880 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 3: of people wouldn't do that.

988
00:47:52,040 --> 00:47:53,200
Speaker 2: They'd just sort of wait.

989
00:47:53,000 --> 00:47:54,440
Speaker 1: And see conversation.

990
00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,040
Speaker 3: Really, and that's why she was crying like this is

991
00:47:57,080 --> 00:47:59,200
Speaker 3: this is the most stoic woman you've ever met, and

992
00:47:59,239 --> 00:48:02,640
Speaker 3: she's crying so obviously meant something to her, and that

993
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,600
Speaker 3: would have been a really, really hard time for her,

994
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:08,520
Speaker 3: and she was determined to protect me, and it was

995
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:10,640
Speaker 3: just I guess, I don't know if luck is the

996
00:48:10,680 --> 00:48:13,719
Speaker 3: right word, but he was arrested before she, you know,

997
00:48:13,800 --> 00:48:15,040
Speaker 3: had a chance to give me that.

998
00:48:14,960 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: Forwarder get across.

999
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:17,880
Speaker 2: But she is also the one that sent me the

1000
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:18,360
Speaker 2: video of.

1001
00:48:19,040 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: Okay, we'll talk about the arrest. But how long had

1002
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:25,640
Speaker 1: you been seeing Max before she started to become sus.

1003
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:29,240
Speaker 3: I don't know when she first started to become sus,

1004
00:48:29,239 --> 00:48:32,120
Speaker 3: but when she took me for breakfast that was I

1005
00:48:32,160 --> 00:48:35,640
Speaker 3: think it was early in twenty seventeen, So this stage,

1006
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:39,880
Speaker 3: it's nearly a year after we've been together, and it

1007
00:48:39,920 --> 00:48:42,920
Speaker 3: was when the conversations around the money started heating up.

1008
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,360
Speaker 3: You know, the self managed super fun happened in early

1009
00:48:45,400 --> 00:48:49,640
Speaker 3: two thousand and fifty seventeen, so I think that was

1010
00:48:49,680 --> 00:48:52,480
Speaker 3: what prompted her to have that chat with me at

1011
00:48:52,520 --> 00:48:55,520
Speaker 3: that time. But I suspect that she was sus on

1012
00:48:55,600 --> 00:48:58,239
Speaker 3: him for a very long time, just because of the

1013
00:48:58,280 --> 00:49:02,360
Speaker 3: stories I was recounting to her his name. You know,

1014
00:49:02,560 --> 00:49:05,240
Speaker 3: she said, that's a you know, that's a that's.

1015
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:09,680
Speaker 1: I like an intuition there that Tavita is an island

1016
00:49:09,719 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: in the Pacific tongue name. Yeah, he's white.

1017
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:17,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that was that was us for her. You know,

1018
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:21,320
Speaker 3: I didn't I didn't know that cultural relevance or that reference,

1019
00:49:21,440 --> 00:49:25,000
Speaker 3: so I couldn't relate to that. Again, I probably did

1020
00:49:25,000 --> 00:49:27,799
Speaker 3: a quick search one night late on the Internet about it.

1021
00:49:28,600 --> 00:49:32,279
Speaker 3: But I would say she was probably suspect fairly early on.

1022
00:49:32,320 --> 00:49:33,160
Speaker 2: But it did take.

1023
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 1: Her and her concern as a friend in that early

1024
00:49:36,600 --> 00:49:39,279
Speaker 1: stage you have your heart broken, not then when it

1025
00:49:39,400 --> 00:49:42,279
Speaker 1: ramped up the hold that now you're investing your finances,

1026
00:49:42,280 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 1: it's going to be more than your heart and your finances.

1027
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:46,280
Speaker 2: That's what she was most worried about.

1028
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:51,920
Speaker 1: Okay, just about the finances that he used to like

1029
00:49:52,880 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: five cars. Well, tell us it's all up, like what

1030
00:49:57,880 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 1: your impression you You thought, okay, he's got a bit

1031
00:50:00,520 --> 00:50:02,400
Speaker 1: of money, and then he'd flash it, but then he'd pull.

1032
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:05,080
Speaker 3: It back and yeah, and again this is where the

1033
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:07,800
Speaker 3: things come slowly, the death by thousand. So the cars

1034
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:11,480
Speaker 3: appeared over time. It wasn't like, hey, I've got five cars,

1035
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,359
Speaker 3: because I go, you're a jerk.

1036
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 2: Like what why?

1037
00:50:15,600 --> 00:50:17,239
Speaker 3: And I actually said that to him because by the

1038
00:50:17,280 --> 00:50:20,200
Speaker 3: time I'd seen the fourth car that just sort of

1039
00:50:20,200 --> 00:50:24,560
Speaker 3: appeared one day, I was like, what single forty year

1040
00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:28,759
Speaker 3: old guy who lives in BONDI needs five cars? Like,

1041
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:33,759
Speaker 3: you're just a jerk, Like that's so excessive. And the

1042
00:50:33,800 --> 00:50:36,719
Speaker 3: next conversation was, you know what, Tries, I've been thinking

1043
00:50:36,719 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 3: about what you said about the cars, and you're right,

1044
00:50:39,520 --> 00:50:41,360
Speaker 3: I don't need them. I'm going to get rid of

1045
00:50:41,360 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 3: a couple of them. And then suddenly they all started disappearing.

1046
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:48,760
Speaker 1: So he was just a chameleon that kept changing for whatever.

1047
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm sure if I had been impressed by.

1048
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:52,640
Speaker 1: That, you would have had ten cars.

1049
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:54,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, probably would have given me a couple I don't

1050
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:57,000
Speaker 3: know and put them in someone else's name. But you know,

1051
00:50:57,080 --> 00:51:00,440
Speaker 3: they sort of started disappearing, and you know, there were

1052
00:51:00,520 --> 00:51:04,880
Speaker 3: signs of wealth, but there are also signs of not wealth.

1053
00:51:05,000 --> 00:51:08,600
Speaker 3: And when I questioned those things, you know, he had

1054
00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,360
Speaker 3: an answer for everything. Right, So he lived in a

1055
00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: one bedroom apartment in Bondou was a beautiful apartment, but

1056
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 3: it was small.

1057
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: It was it was fairly minimals.

1058
00:51:17,480 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 3: Yeah, minimalist's say, and yeah he so it asked him

1059
00:51:22,840 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 3: about things and he'd say, Trace, I've lived that life.

1060
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:27,960
Speaker 3: This is the apartment I had in New York. And

1061
00:51:28,000 --> 00:51:32,160
Speaker 3: of course he's got the photos to show me, you know,

1062
00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:35,399
Speaker 3: and he tells the stories and overtime told stories about

1063
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 3: this apartment and he lived in that building and where

1064
00:51:37,600 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 3: it was and the whole thing. And he said, I've

1065
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,160
Speaker 3: lived that life, and I came back to Australia to

1066
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:45,160
Speaker 3: live a more simple life. He goes, all I want

1067
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,600
Speaker 3: to do is go surfing, do my job and spend

1068
00:51:47,600 --> 00:51:49,200
Speaker 3: my time with great people.

1069
00:51:49,520 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: Now, when we apply the drip feed coefficient into that,

1070
00:51:53,640 --> 00:51:57,080
Speaker 1: it makes sense, like when you're telling it, Yeah, but

1071
00:51:57,440 --> 00:52:00,879
Speaker 1: you could see someone he liked these surfing Okay, I've

1072
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,319
Speaker 1: just decided to change directions in life. So yeah, it's

1073
00:52:05,280 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 1: you can understand that if you're getting fed in the

1074
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,200
Speaker 1: moment about added up.

1075
00:52:10,480 --> 00:52:15,239
Speaker 3: It all added up and coupled with his persona and

1076
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:19,640
Speaker 3: his desire to have a simple life and just do

1077
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,120
Speaker 3: the things he loved, I could relate to that. You know,

1078
00:52:23,239 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 3: he's like, what I want to.

1079
00:52:25,120 --> 00:52:26,440
Speaker 2: Be doing now?

1080
00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: How he got you to invest in what he was doing? Again,

1081
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,920
Speaker 1: that was done incrementally. Who was done in small small

1082
00:52:33,960 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: parts talk us through that.

1083
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 3: I mean probably as backstory. There were hundreds and hundreds

1084
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:43,759
Speaker 3: of conversations about finances and investing and money in his

1085
00:52:43,880 --> 00:52:46,400
Speaker 3: line of work and his career and what he was

1086
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,720
Speaker 3: doing at the family office for some of the richest

1087
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 3: families in Australia, and reports and the Bloomberg monitors on,

1088
00:52:54,520 --> 00:52:58,040
Speaker 3: you know, in his apartment and you know the office

1089
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,520
Speaker 3: and the pictures from the office, and you.

1090
00:53:00,480 --> 00:53:02,239
Speaker 1: Know, the whole set up, the whole thing.

1091
00:53:02,400 --> 00:53:06,040
Speaker 3: It was like a movie, right, And this started from

1092
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:09,239
Speaker 3: the day that we met, the day that we first connected.

1093
00:53:09,320 --> 00:53:13,480
Speaker 3: This story was built over time, over conversations, over text messages,

1094
00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 3: over phone calls, over reports and documents, and you know,

1095
00:53:17,920 --> 00:53:22,000
Speaker 3: he created this whole movie so that I believed that

1096
00:53:22,040 --> 00:53:23,080
Speaker 3: he was who he said he was.

1097
00:53:23,120 --> 00:53:24,160
Speaker 1: Even phone calls.

1098
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:27,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, there were phone calls with people that I overheard

1099
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:29,719
Speaker 3: and I could hear the person on the other end

1100
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 3: about a trade that he needed to put through. So

1101
00:53:32,320 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 3: it was someone in his back office that was executing

1102
00:53:34,480 --> 00:53:37,520
Speaker 3: the trades for him, Claudia, I need to do this.

1103
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 3: What was the price of gold it close yesterday? What

1104
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 3: is it today? What's it likely to be? Have you

1105
00:53:41,760 --> 00:53:44,480
Speaker 3: modeled that? I need to put fifteen on that? And

1106
00:53:44,560 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 3: do you know I don't know who these people. I

1107
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,840
Speaker 3: still don't know who these people are. I don't believe

1108
00:53:49,880 --> 00:53:54,040
Speaker 3: they were real trades. But this, you know, I witnessed

1109
00:53:54,080 --> 00:53:56,279
Speaker 3: all of this over a long period of time. So

1110
00:53:56,360 --> 00:53:59,799
Speaker 3: by the time there was a conversation about my superannuation

1111
00:54:00,480 --> 00:54:02,920
Speaker 3: and what I was doing with my super, what fund

1112
00:54:02,960 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 3: I was investing with, how much I was paying in fees,

1113
00:54:06,800 --> 00:54:09,080
Speaker 3: you know, and then his point of view about that,

1114
00:54:09,920 --> 00:54:14,000
Speaker 3: everything kind of confirmed that he was a person who

1115
00:54:14,080 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 3: knew what he was talking about, had my best interests

1116
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:20,719
Speaker 3: at heart, had my back, wanted me to be financially independent,

1117
00:54:21,200 --> 00:54:24,799
Speaker 3: and said to me, let me help you. And if

1118
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 3: he had a knocked on my door two weeks after

1119
00:54:26,719 --> 00:54:30,640
Speaker 3: we met and said, hand over your superannuation, your life savings,

1120
00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:32,600
Speaker 3: everything you've got, I'm going to invest it for you,

1121
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 3: I said, bugger off, who are you like? I've met

1122
00:54:35,640 --> 00:54:39,600
Speaker 3: you two weeks ago. But he created this long con

1123
00:54:40,000 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 3: of information and this presentation of who he was to

1124
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:47,279
Speaker 3: have me believe that he was the perfect person to

1125
00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:50,680
Speaker 3: invest my life savings. So when he asked me and said,

1126
00:54:50,680 --> 00:54:52,600
Speaker 3: you know, we should do a self managed super fun

1127
00:54:52,640 --> 00:54:55,560
Speaker 3: for you because you'd get so much more return, you'd

1128
00:54:55,560 --> 00:54:59,279
Speaker 3: be financially independent, quicker you could, you know all of

1129
00:54:59,280 --> 00:55:02,400
Speaker 3: this stuff, and of course it was peppered with lots

1130
00:55:02,400 --> 00:55:06,120
Speaker 3: of compliments around You're one of the hardest working people

1131
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,680
Speaker 3: I've ever met. You work so hard, trace like you

1132
00:55:08,800 --> 00:55:12,719
Speaker 3: deserve this, and you know, really building me up. And

1133
00:55:13,719 --> 00:55:16,560
Speaker 3: so I thought it was the right thing to do,

1134
00:55:16,960 --> 00:55:18,960
Speaker 3: so we set up a self managed super fun. He

1135
00:55:19,360 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 3: groomed me throughout that whole process, worked with a solicitor,

1136
00:55:22,520 --> 00:55:26,319
Speaker 3: presented all the documents to me, explained everything. The self

1137
00:55:26,360 --> 00:55:29,719
Speaker 3: managed super fund was actually set up, legitimately had a constitution,

1138
00:55:30,440 --> 00:55:34,560
Speaker 3: everything was done correctly removed. I had to go and

1139
00:55:35,120 --> 00:55:38,520
Speaker 3: close down my superannuation fund and transfer that money into

1140
00:55:38,560 --> 00:55:40,680
Speaker 3: a business banking account that I'd set up. I needed

1141
00:55:40,719 --> 00:55:45,200
Speaker 3: all the documentation for the funds to allow that, and

1142
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:50,120
Speaker 3: then what he got me to do was pull a

1143
00:55:50,200 --> 00:55:55,440
Speaker 3: check out of that business account. And I believed I

1144
00:55:55,520 --> 00:55:58,200
Speaker 3: had a trading account set up at belt pot of Securities.

1145
00:55:58,440 --> 00:56:03,360
Speaker 3: I filled in the paperwork it submitted, and he said,

1146
00:56:03,520 --> 00:56:05,399
Speaker 3: write a check out to Bell Pot of Securities. That's

1147
00:56:05,400 --> 00:56:07,320
Speaker 3: what I did, thinking it would go into my account,

1148
00:56:07,400 --> 00:56:09,920
Speaker 3: but I didn't put my name on that check Bell

1149
00:56:09,960 --> 00:56:13,440
Speaker 3: Pot of Securities, Tracy Hall Investments, or whatever the account was,

1150
00:56:14,239 --> 00:56:16,320
Speaker 3: and so it went into a washing account of his.

1151
00:56:16,400 --> 00:56:19,600
Speaker 2: At Bell Pot of Securities, right, And that's how it happened.

1152
00:56:20,280 --> 00:56:22,800
Speaker 1: And the way you describe it, the new use word grooming,

1153
00:56:22,840 --> 00:56:24,719
Speaker 1: and I think that's an apt way of describing it.

1154
00:56:24,800 --> 00:56:29,279
Speaker 1: We usually do that with pedophiles with children, but this

1155
00:56:29,440 --> 00:56:33,000
Speaker 1: is a different crime, but the same process it is grooming,

1156
00:56:33,040 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: and the effort that has to go to leave paperwork

1157
00:56:36,040 --> 00:56:38,240
Speaker 1: all around the desk and you compute the screen open,

1158
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:43,360
Speaker 1: then talking business, talking shop on the phone. And the

1159
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,600
Speaker 1: sense that I got, the way he got you in there,

1160
00:56:45,719 --> 00:56:47,759
Speaker 1: it was almost like I'm doing you a favor. I'm

1161
00:56:47,760 --> 00:56:49,839
Speaker 1: not desperate for it. So it wasn't him saying, hey

1162
00:56:49,880 --> 00:56:51,720
Speaker 1: I need I've just got a short fall of funds.

1163
00:56:51,760 --> 00:56:54,239
Speaker 1: I need this. It was look, if you want, I

1164
00:56:54,280 --> 00:56:57,600
Speaker 1: can't help you. And the first one was like incremental too,

1165
00:56:57,640 --> 00:56:59,880
Speaker 1: it was ten thousand, yes, So that gives you the

1166
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: confidence and then surprise, surprise at ten thousand dollars double

1167
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:06,279
Speaker 1: or whatever, and you come back and think maybe he

1168
00:57:06,320 --> 00:57:09,840
Speaker 1: does or not. Maybe I always knew he did, he

1169
00:57:09,960 --> 00:57:13,640
Speaker 1: knew his job. So then it built up and I've

1170
00:57:13,680 --> 00:57:16,480
Speaker 1: just got the you'd remember it better than I would,

1171
00:57:16,680 --> 00:57:19,680
Speaker 1: I would imagine, but the amount of money, So just

1172
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:22,800
Speaker 1: going through it and comment if you wish. But so

1173
00:57:22,880 --> 00:57:26,600
Speaker 1: it was fourth of October twenty sixteen was ten thousand dollars. Ye,

1174
00:57:27,040 --> 00:57:29,480
Speaker 1: and then you've got to return that's right for that

1175
00:57:30,240 --> 00:57:34,000
Speaker 1: And then tenth of February twenty seventeen, one hundred and.

1176
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:36,240
Speaker 2: Eighty seven thousand, that was my superannuation.

1177
00:57:37,280 --> 00:57:39,480
Speaker 1: Talk to me about that. How did he just say, okay,

1178
00:57:39,760 --> 00:57:41,480
Speaker 1: let's move it all across.

1179
00:57:41,720 --> 00:57:44,520
Speaker 3: So that was the self managed super fund. So that

1180
00:57:44,680 --> 00:57:49,560
Speaker 3: was my twenty two year career worth of superannuation. And

1181
00:57:49,880 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 3: that was completely transferred across to a self managed super fund,

1182
00:57:53,760 --> 00:57:57,240
Speaker 3: which I then withdrew in a check for a trading account.

1183
00:57:58,080 --> 00:58:00,120
Speaker 3: But that trading account was not in my name. He

1184
00:58:00,200 --> 00:58:01,960
Speaker 3: went into an account of his right.

1185
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:07,240
Speaker 1: And then thurd of April eighty thousand, two thousand and seventeen, Yeah,

1186
00:58:08,000 --> 00:58:10,760
Speaker 1: twelfth of June two thousand and seventeen forty thousand.

1187
00:58:11,040 --> 00:58:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1188
00:58:11,560 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 3: So they were some shares and some savings that I

1189
00:58:14,280 --> 00:58:19,000
Speaker 3: had accumulated, mostly shares that I'd earned through working in tech.

1190
00:58:19,600 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 3: And he again, you know, throughout the countless conversations we

1191
00:58:23,600 --> 00:58:27,560
Speaker 3: had about you know, Trump's antics and how that was

1192
00:58:27,600 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 3: impacting the US markets and what was going to happen,

1193
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 3: and it was at an all time high. So you should

1194
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,360
Speaker 3: cash those in and then we'll invest them and we'll diversify.

1195
00:58:36,520 --> 00:58:40,040
Speaker 3: And you know, he gave me the whole strategy and

1196
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,560
Speaker 3: so encouraged me to do that. So that's what I did,

1197
00:58:42,600 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 3: and then transferred that to the self managed super fund.

1198
00:58:45,640 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: And this is eighteen months into your.

1199
00:58:47,520 --> 00:58:48,960
Speaker 2: Relationship, almost eighteen months.

1200
00:58:49,040 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: Yeah, and yeah, you trust him. He's met your family, holidays,

1201
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:57,200
Speaker 1: you're staying at each other's place. There was intimacy, their

1202
00:58:57,240 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: physical intimacy, everything that a relationship would be defined as

1203
00:59:02,240 --> 00:59:05,840
Speaker 1: you're in this relationship, talk about buying a house, moving

1204
00:59:05,840 --> 00:59:08,600
Speaker 1: to Byron Bay, going to look at the houses.

1205
00:59:09,120 --> 00:59:12,320
Speaker 2: It's just multiple houses.

1206
00:59:12,040 --> 00:59:14,920
Speaker 1: Bullshitting with the real estate agents pointing out houses. I

1207
00:59:15,000 --> 00:59:17,360
Speaker 1: used to live this or I used to own that house,

1208
00:59:17,480 --> 00:59:18,840
Speaker 1: and then why don't we buy this?

1209
00:59:19,040 --> 00:59:22,240
Speaker 3: Yeah, we got contracts on houses, we saw floor plans,

1210
00:59:23,280 --> 00:59:25,600
Speaker 3: I mean, the level of dep like it was just

1211
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:27,880
Speaker 3: a game for him, you know, he didn't have a job,

1212
00:59:28,000 --> 00:59:30,280
Speaker 3: like I was busy working sixteen hour days trying to

1213
00:59:30,280 --> 00:59:32,440
Speaker 3: earn a living, and he was doing all this on

1214
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:34,040
Speaker 3: the side, just as a bit of a game. So

1215
00:59:34,080 --> 00:59:37,680
Speaker 3: we'd go to Byron and travel throughout the Byron hinterland

1216
00:59:38,160 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 3: and look at house after house. I took my mom,

1217
00:59:40,200 --> 00:59:42,120
Speaker 3: I took my daughter with us, you know, and you

1218
00:59:42,240 --> 00:59:45,320
Speaker 3: imagine yourself, you know, in a couple of years moving

1219
00:59:45,400 --> 00:59:49,040
Speaker 3: up there and having that life. And we spoke about

1220
00:59:49,040 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 3: it at length, you know, in those wee hours of

1221
00:59:51,120 --> 00:59:53,160
Speaker 3: the morning chats that you have about what you want

1222
00:59:53,200 --> 00:59:55,680
Speaker 3: your future to look like. And he just presented that

1223
00:59:55,720 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 3: back to me.

1224
00:59:58,160 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 1: I see here. It's just evil, isn't it. It's hard

1225
01:00:00,680 --> 01:00:04,120
Speaker 1: to comprehend because I know those type of conversations where

1226
01:00:04,120 --> 01:00:06,960
Speaker 1: you're sitting down planning your future. The excitement would have

1227
01:00:07,000 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 1: been coming out of the pause of your skin about

1228
01:00:09,360 --> 01:00:11,200
Speaker 1: the hit I can see the life, We've got the

1229
01:00:11,280 --> 01:00:15,680
Speaker 1: future together, and the whole time it was it was

1230
01:00:16,440 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 1: I think.

1231
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:20,439
Speaker 3: The thing too, that I find so interesting is how

1232
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 3: you can fake loving someone for that long, like you

1233
01:00:24,800 --> 01:00:27,320
Speaker 3: know when someone likes you or not right, like you

1234
01:00:27,360 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 3: know that, or he's just not that into.

1235
01:00:28,880 --> 01:00:32,480
Speaker 2: You, you know, and that little look.

1236
01:00:32,880 --> 01:00:37,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, or just the dismissiveness of respect or whatever it

1237
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:41,560
Speaker 3: might be. Like he was so there and it was

1238
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 3: it was so real, and yet it wasn't. And I

1239
01:00:45,320 --> 01:00:49,400
Speaker 3: just think, gosh, the level of investment that he went

1240
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:54,400
Speaker 3: to to pretend to love at that intimate level. Because

1241
01:00:54,400 --> 01:00:56,479
Speaker 3: this wasn't just a business deal. This was a life

1242
01:00:56,560 --> 01:01:02,479
Speaker 3: we were describing and building and and you planning, but.

1243
01:01:02,400 --> 01:01:04,320
Speaker 2: It was all it was all just fake.

1244
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:08,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it is hard to comprehend, I think to get

1245
01:01:08,800 --> 01:01:11,160
Speaker 1: the sense of and I've just pulled a quote out

1246
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:13,120
Speaker 1: of your book, but to get a sense of your

1247
01:01:13,160 --> 01:01:16,600
Speaker 1: life as of before it all blew up on the

1248
01:01:16,600 --> 01:01:18,880
Speaker 1: eleventh of July two thousand and seven, and you're in

1249
01:01:18,920 --> 01:01:21,640
Speaker 1: a good place. And this is how you described your

1250
01:01:21,760 --> 01:01:25,480
Speaker 1: life when you woke up feeling good. I woke up

1251
01:01:25,520 --> 01:01:29,360
Speaker 1: feeling fulfilled in every life area family tick, career, tick,

1252
01:01:29,520 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 1: personal growth tick, health, tick, relationship double tick. Could this

1253
01:01:34,480 --> 01:01:37,920
Speaker 1: be the elusive contentment I've heard so many people speak of.

1254
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:40,520
Speaker 1: So that was your mindset?

1255
01:01:41,960 --> 01:01:47,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was and I'd been through and the first

1256
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:48,520
Speaker 3: part of the book talks about this.

1257
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,640
Speaker 2: I'd been through a lot, you know. My dad died

1258
01:01:51,680 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 2: really young.

1259
01:01:52,840 --> 01:01:54,960
Speaker 3: You know, I'd been through a divorce, my mum got

1260
01:01:55,000 --> 01:01:57,880
Speaker 3: breast cancer, I had a miscarriage. There was a lot

1261
01:01:57,920 --> 01:02:01,600
Speaker 3: that happened, and I had coped with a lot, and

1262
01:02:01,680 --> 01:02:07,400
Speaker 3: so you know, the traumatic kind of the separation that divorce.

1263
01:02:07,480 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 3: I'd gotten to a place, you know, two and a

1264
01:02:09,680 --> 01:02:12,000
Speaker 3: half years after that point where I felt like I'd

1265
01:02:12,040 --> 01:02:15,280
Speaker 3: met someone who you know, I felt like I was

1266
01:02:15,280 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 3: in a relationship like what my parents had, you know,

1267
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:22,520
Speaker 3: which is what I always aspired to. And yeah, I

1268
01:02:22,640 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 3: felt like, oh my god, finally things are coming together.

1269
01:02:26,120 --> 01:02:28,440
Speaker 1: I see that, and I pulled it out as a

1270
01:02:28,520 --> 01:02:31,040
Speaker 1: quote because it just it's so sad. We've all been

1271
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:34,320
Speaker 1: in that stage of life where you think maybe this

1272
01:02:34,840 --> 01:02:38,160
Speaker 1: life is for me, this is it's all, everything's lined up,

1273
01:02:38,520 --> 01:02:44,440
Speaker 1: and then it went tragically south. Yeah, we did. You

1274
01:02:44,840 --> 01:02:47,880
Speaker 1: couldn't get in contact with him over a twenty four

1275
01:02:47,960 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 1: hour period, or there was a text working late and

1276
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:52,320
Speaker 1: you text him but there was no response. But do

1277
01:02:52,360 --> 01:02:53,280
Speaker 1: you want to take it from there?

1278
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, We've been to Byron for the weekend, I was

1279
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 3: up there presenting at a marketing conference and came back.

1280
01:02:58,320 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 2: He was up there supporting me.

1281
01:02:59,600 --> 01:03:03,040
Speaker 3: It was he drove back after I flew back, and

1282
01:03:03,520 --> 01:03:05,640
Speaker 3: I missed a call from him one morning that I

1283
01:03:05,680 --> 01:03:07,840
Speaker 3: was busy like at school, holidays, were getting kids off

1284
01:03:07,880 --> 01:03:10,480
Speaker 3: to camps and the whole thing, getting into the office,

1285
01:03:10,920 --> 01:03:12,400
Speaker 3: and I spent the rest of the day trying to

1286
01:03:12,400 --> 01:03:15,040
Speaker 3: get back in touch with him and couldn't, and that

1287
01:03:15,120 --> 01:03:17,360
Speaker 3: was very unusual because he was always very responsive. We

1288
01:03:17,440 --> 01:03:20,200
Speaker 3: spoke a losh and by that night I was getting

1289
01:03:20,240 --> 01:03:22,600
Speaker 3: pretty worried, and I spent a lot of that night

1290
01:03:23,240 --> 01:03:25,840
Speaker 3: deep in the Internet trying to find the phone number

1291
01:03:25,840 --> 01:03:28,240
Speaker 3: of his brother in law, who I'd met his sister.

1292
01:03:28,520 --> 01:03:30,600
Speaker 2: He's surfing Buddies, people.

1293
01:03:30,320 --> 01:03:33,400
Speaker 3: That he grew up with, and I knew their company names,

1294
01:03:33,440 --> 01:03:36,440
Speaker 3: so you know, I reached out to them. So I

1295
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,800
Speaker 3: was doing a lot of outreach overnight and barely slept

1296
01:03:39,840 --> 01:03:42,560
Speaker 3: and woke up super early the next morning because I

1297
01:03:42,720 --> 01:03:45,560
Speaker 3: still hadn't heard called Bondo police and asked them to

1298
01:03:45,600 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 3: do a wellness check on him because I just had

1299
01:03:48,000 --> 01:03:50,000
Speaker 3: a feeling that something was wrong. I thought he'd been

1300
01:03:50,040 --> 01:03:51,160
Speaker 3: in an accident.

1301
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:51,560
Speaker 2: And.

1302
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:56,320
Speaker 3: While that was happening. Kath called me and she said,

1303
01:03:56,320 --> 01:03:57,760
Speaker 3: how are you? And I said, I'm really worried. I

1304
01:03:57,760 --> 01:04:00,680
Speaker 3: haven't slept a wink. Something's happened to Max. She said,

1305
01:04:00,680 --> 01:04:03,120
Speaker 3: I'm going to send you a link. I said, oh

1306
01:04:03,120 --> 01:04:05,440
Speaker 3: my god, he's died. What's happened. There's been an accident.

1307
01:04:05,480 --> 01:04:08,360
Speaker 3: He's surfing as there's been a shark attack. She said, no, no, no,

1308
01:04:09,560 --> 01:04:13,200
Speaker 3: click on the link and call me back. And I

1309
01:04:13,240 --> 01:04:15,600
Speaker 3: clicked on the link and it was the crime Stoppers

1310
01:04:15,680 --> 01:04:18,400
Speaker 3: video of him being arrested outside of his apartment in Bondai,

1311
01:04:19,000 --> 01:04:20,840
Speaker 3: and his face was all blowed out, but of course

1312
01:04:20,880 --> 01:04:24,120
Speaker 3: I knew it was him, and so I called Bondai

1313
01:04:24,120 --> 01:04:25,720
Speaker 3: police back and said, you don't need to do a

1314
01:04:25,720 --> 01:04:28,920
Speaker 3: wellness check on him. He's fine, he's been arrested, and

1315
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,000
Speaker 3: they said, yes, we know that, and all the information

1316
01:04:33,120 --> 01:04:34,840
Speaker 3: you gave us about the man that lives at that

1317
01:04:34,920 --> 01:04:38,680
Speaker 3: address is not who lives at that address. And that's

1318
01:04:38,760 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 3: when I was like, well, who lives there? What's his name?

1319
01:04:42,200 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 3: What is because the video and the article that was

1320
01:04:47,000 --> 01:04:50,760
Speaker 3: online that morning was just sort of Bondai businessman forty

1321
01:04:50,840 --> 01:04:56,480
Speaker 3: seven superannuation fraud. It was very broad and what the

1322
01:04:56,520 --> 01:04:59,400
Speaker 3: detectives have hoped with that video was that people like

1323
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:02,240
Speaker 3: me would see and then come forward because they didn't

1324
01:05:02,240 --> 01:05:05,000
Speaker 3: have all the victims at that point, but no details

1325
01:05:05,000 --> 01:05:09,240
Speaker 3: had been released. And then that's when I did get

1326
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:11,439
Speaker 3: in touch with his brother in law and he'd sent

1327
01:05:11,440 --> 01:05:14,000
Speaker 3: me a message saying, you know, call me back urgently

1328
01:05:14,000 --> 01:05:16,480
Speaker 3: on this number, Chris, and in brackets he wrote Hamish's

1329
01:05:16,520 --> 01:05:18,880
Speaker 3: brother in law. And that's the first time I saw

1330
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 3: his name. And I called Chris and I said, who

1331
01:05:20,600 --> 01:05:24,440
Speaker 3: the fuck is Hamish? And he said Hamish McLaren And

1332
01:05:24,480 --> 01:05:27,120
Speaker 3: I said, well, who's Max Tavita. So I was just

1333
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:29,200
Speaker 3: in this world where I was like I'd heard this

1334
01:05:29,280 --> 01:05:31,920
Speaker 3: new name. I didn't know him as that, And then,

1335
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 3: of course, armed with his actual name, I would go

1336
01:05:35,280 --> 01:05:37,760
Speaker 3: into the internet and find a very long and deep

1337
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,040
Speaker 3: history of all of the things that he had been

1338
01:05:40,160 --> 01:05:40,360
Speaker 3: up to.

1339
01:05:40,680 --> 01:05:44,560
Speaker 1: Okay, well, look we might we might take a break.

1340
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:50,840
Speaker 1: At this point, I'm I'm angry. I can't imagine how

1341
01:05:50,960 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: you It would just be an absolute headspin on trying

1342
01:05:55,120 --> 01:05:57,840
Speaker 1: to comprehend that. So we're going to take a break,

1343
01:05:57,880 --> 01:06:00,360
Speaker 1: and when we get back, we'll talk about how you

1344
01:06:00,480 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 1: processed what you found out and how your life was

1345
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:06,480
Speaker 1: from that moment or that turned upside down. But I

1346
01:06:06,520 --> 01:06:09,600
Speaker 1: think those that have been listening to your talk through

1347
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:15,480
Speaker 1: understand how the relationship just organically grew and there weren't

1348
01:06:15,520 --> 01:06:19,360
Speaker 1: warning signs. Their everything seemed perfect. And you're not some

1349
01:06:19,520 --> 01:06:23,200
Speaker 1: naive idiot that just was told the whole pack of lies.

1350
01:06:23,280 --> 01:06:27,440
Speaker 1: You're a smart person, a person that had the intelligence

1351
01:06:27,480 --> 01:06:32,480
Speaker 1: to suspect someone, but you've just been calm, Just calm that. Okay,

1352
01:06:32,920 --> 01:06:36,520
Speaker 1: I'm going to be fascinated how you did react after

1353
01:06:36,560 --> 01:06:39,600
Speaker 1: finding out the person that you loved and invested your

1354
01:06:39,600 --> 01:06:44,280
Speaker 1: money with didn't even exist. Buckle up back soon