1 00:00:05,820 --> 00:00:08,160 Sean Aylmer: Welcome to the Fear and Greed Business Interview. I'm Sean 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,429 Sean Aylmer: Aylmer. It'll come as no surprise that Australians are having 3 00:00:11,429 --> 00:00:14,430 Sean Aylmer: to direct more of their spending to essential living expenses 4 00:00:14,730 --> 00:00:16,829 Sean Aylmer: rather than the things they'd prefer to spend their money 5 00:00:16,829 --> 00:00:19,470 Sean Aylmer: on. It's a reality of the cost of living crisis, 6 00:00:19,470 --> 00:00:22,319 Sean Aylmer: and nobody sees this more clearly than our biggest bank. 7 00:00:22,620 --> 00:00:25,440 Sean Aylmer: This time last year, we spoke to Wade Tubman from 8 00:00:25,500 --> 00:00:29,519 Sean Aylmer: CommBank iQ, a joint venture between Commonwealth Bank and AI 9 00:00:29,520 --> 00:00:33,420 Sean Aylmer: company, Quantium. The group uses de- identified data from 7,000, 10 00:00:33,509 --> 00:00:37,979 Sean Aylmer: 000 Commonwealth Bank customers to track changes in spending. I 11 00:00:37,979 --> 00:00:40,500 Sean Aylmer: wanted to check in again and see what's changed, where 12 00:00:40,500 --> 00:00:42,900 Sean Aylmer: the pressure points are and how Australians are coping with 13 00:00:42,900 --> 00:00:46,620 Sean Aylmer: the rising cost of living? Wade Tubman is CommBank IQ's 14 00:00:46,650 --> 00:00:49,620 Sean Aylmer: Head of Innovation and Analytics. Wade, welcome back to Fear 15 00:00:49,620 --> 00:00:50,100 Sean Aylmer: and Greed. 16 00:00:50,400 --> 00:00:51,629 Wade Tubman: Thank you for having me back. 17 00:00:52,080 --> 00:00:54,150 Sean Aylmer: I know we did cover this last time, but it's 18 00:00:54,150 --> 00:00:58,140 Sean Aylmer: worth revisiting. Take me through the key components of household 19 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:04,200 Sean Aylmer: finances. You have income, mortgage, savings, et cetera. Just take 20 00:01:04,200 --> 00:01:05,279 Sean Aylmer: me through those elements? 21 00:01:06,509 --> 00:01:09,690 Wade Tubman: So I like to build a mental model of the 22 00:01:09,690 --> 00:01:13,020 Wade Tubman: Australian consumer or the Australian household, a bit like a 23 00:01:13,020 --> 00:01:16,619 Wade Tubman: personal P& L balance sheet. If you think about your 24 00:01:16,620 --> 00:01:19,890 Wade Tubman: key sources of funds, you have your salary, and for 25 00:01:19,890 --> 00:01:22,920 Wade Tubman: most Australians, that's about it. Then we have your big 26 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,799 Wade Tubman: outgoings and your house is the big outgoing for a 27 00:01:25,799 --> 00:01:29,219 Wade Tubman: third of Australians renting. A third have a mortgage and 28 00:01:29,219 --> 00:01:31,440 Wade Tubman: a third own outright. So for two- thirds of Australians, 29 00:01:31,860 --> 00:01:34,140 Wade Tubman: your house or putting a roof over your head is 30 00:01:34,140 --> 00:01:37,590 Wade Tubman: your biggest outgoing. But then beyond that, there's just a 31 00:01:37,590 --> 00:01:42,179 Wade Tubman: whole myriad of life's expenses. And unfortunately, there's not a 32 00:01:42,179 --> 00:01:45,030 Wade Tubman: lot of data around how people spend. So what we 33 00:01:45,030 --> 00:01:48,239 Wade Tubman: decided to do was to understand how these pressures and 34 00:01:48,240 --> 00:01:51,480 Wade Tubman: the pressures that we're facing are largely caused by significant 35 00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:54,660 Wade Tubman: hikes in rentals. Rents are up second year in a 36 00:01:54,660 --> 00:01:57,599 Wade Tubman: row with double- digit rent increases, and obviously mortgage rates 37 00:01:57,599 --> 00:02:00,059 Wade Tubman: are up as well, but what is this actually doing 38 00:02:00,059 --> 00:02:02,639 Wade Tubman: to Australia's spending habits, but more importantly, what is it 39 00:02:02,639 --> 00:02:05,369 Wade Tubman: doing to their lives? So what we've done is we've 40 00:02:05,369 --> 00:02:10,139 Wade Tubman: analyzed the spending behavior of 7, 000,000 Australians. We've scaled 41 00:02:10,139 --> 00:02:14,760 Wade Tubman: that to be representative all 26,000,000 Australians out there and 42 00:02:15,030 --> 00:02:18,270 Wade Tubman: try to dive below the averages, try to really get 43 00:02:18,270 --> 00:02:23,069 Wade Tubman: inside all of the different decisions people are making week in, week out 44 00:02:23,070 --> 00:02:23,730 Wade Tubman: in response to this. 45 00:02:23,730 --> 00:02:28,410 Sean Aylmer: Okay. So maybe we need to start breaking it down 46 00:02:28,410 --> 00:02:31,290 Sean Aylmer: by, is it age or demographics? Because I want to 47 00:02:31,290 --> 00:02:35,190 Sean Aylmer: get into some of that below the averages stuff. What 48 00:02:35,190 --> 00:02:39,209 Sean Aylmer: about younger Australians? What are they spending more on, spending 49 00:02:39,210 --> 00:02:39,690 Sean Aylmer: less on? 50 00:02:40,859 --> 00:02:43,710 Wade Tubman: So if we start with the premise that I guess 51 00:02:43,710 --> 00:02:48,510 Wade Tubman: the key driver of the current situation is that housing 52 00:02:48,510 --> 00:02:51,329 Wade Tubman: situation, you've got to remember that younger people are at 53 00:02:51,330 --> 00:02:55,500 Wade Tubman: an earlier stage in their housing journey. So if you 54 00:02:55,500 --> 00:02:58,559 Wade Tubman: think about your life, you move out of home, probably 55 00:02:58,559 --> 00:03:01,739 Wade Tubman: into a rental first, maybe a share house or maybe 56 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,440 Wade Tubman: on your own. And then you potentially move into a 57 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:09,239 Wade Tubman: first homebuyers mortgage type of situation, your own home. So 58 00:03:09,240 --> 00:03:12,749 Wade Tubman: we do have a prevalence of those two groups in 59 00:03:12,750 --> 00:03:14,758 Wade Tubman: the younger age groups, and that reveals itself in the 60 00:03:14,758 --> 00:03:17,668 Wade Tubman: data. When we look at how young people are spending, 61 00:03:17,910 --> 00:03:20,639 Wade Tubman: we find that it's a very different pattern compared to middle- 62 00:03:20,639 --> 00:03:25,440 Wade Tubman: aged and older Australians. And unfortunately, at the moment when 63 00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:27,870 Wade Tubman: we look at young people, we find that they're having 64 00:03:27,870 --> 00:03:30,540 Wade Tubman: to make a number of changes to their spending and 65 00:03:30,540 --> 00:03:34,079 Wade Tubman: their lifestyle. And I guess the key finding was they're 66 00:03:34,139 --> 00:03:37,110 Wade Tubman: not only cutting back on the things they want, so 67 00:03:37,110 --> 00:03:39,810 Wade Tubman: that discretionary spending, which is a really good litmus test 68 00:03:39,810 --> 00:03:44,220 Wade Tubman: for confidence. They're also cutting back on essentials, which shows 69 00:03:44,429 --> 00:03:46,830 Wade Tubman: that they're, I guess really having to budget and they're 70 00:03:46,830 --> 00:03:50,009 Wade Tubman: really having to, I guess, prioritize what's important to them 71 00:03:50,009 --> 00:03:50,790 Wade Tubman: and what isn't. 72 00:03:51,870 --> 00:03:55,650 Sean Aylmer: When you say essentials for a younger person, and many 73 00:03:55,650 --> 00:03:58,080 Sean Aylmer: years ago, Wade, I'd know exactly what you're talking about. 74 00:03:58,080 --> 00:04:01,980 Sean Aylmer: Alas, now, not so sure. Are you talking about... Obviously 75 00:04:01,980 --> 00:04:05,219 Sean Aylmer: housing, but beyond housing, are you talking about things like 76 00:04:05,219 --> 00:04:07,170 Sean Aylmer: utilities, insurance, that type of stuff? 77 00:04:07,740 --> 00:04:10,980 Wade Tubman: Yeah, so when we have a look, we within CommBank iQ 78 00:04:11,100 --> 00:04:14,850 Wade Tubman: have about 380 different spending categories, and we look through 79 00:04:14,850 --> 00:04:18,180 Wade Tubman: all of them and decide what's essential and what's not. 80 00:04:18,180 --> 00:04:21,089 Wade Tubman: I often have discussions with my wife around what's essential 81 00:04:21,089 --> 00:04:21,629 Wade Tubman: and what isn't. 82 00:04:21,750 --> 00:04:22,320 Sean Aylmer: We all do that. 83 00:04:22,830 --> 00:04:25,319 Wade Tubman: We all do that, but the reality for this analysis 84 00:04:25,320 --> 00:04:27,810 Wade Tubman: is we are talking about putting food on the table 85 00:04:28,109 --> 00:04:31,589 Wade Tubman: through supermarkets, but also specialty food and liquor. We're talking 86 00:04:31,589 --> 00:04:37,380 Wade Tubman: utilities, so energy, gas, telco, NBN, things like that. We're 87 00:04:37,380 --> 00:04:42,540 Wade Tubman: talking key insurances. So health insurance, home insurance, car insurance. 88 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:47,159 Wade Tubman: We're talking medical. So all the doctors, medical services, pharmacies, 89 00:04:47,490 --> 00:04:50,700 Wade Tubman: we're talking getting around. So instead of your car and 90 00:04:50,700 --> 00:04:54,270 Wade Tubman: your petrol or public transport or there's an increasing trend 91 00:04:54,270 --> 00:04:58,529 Wade Tubman: towards non- public transport. So ride share, car share, especially 92 00:04:58,529 --> 00:05:01,380 Wade Tubman: amongst younger people. And for younger people also, we're talking 93 00:05:01,620 --> 00:05:06,178 Wade Tubman: education. So they're all the essentials. And for younger Australians, 94 00:05:06,180 --> 00:05:09,300 Wade Tubman: that makes up half their wallet, all of those categories. 95 00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:11,940 Sean Aylmer: Stay with me, Wade. We'll be back in a minute. 96 00:05:18,690 --> 00:05:22,500 Sean Aylmer: My guest this morning is Wade Tubman, CommBank iQ's Head of 97 00:05:22,500 --> 00:05:27,270 Sean Aylmer: Innovation and Analytics. What about we flip it then? And 98 00:05:27,270 --> 00:05:31,589 Sean Aylmer: so if housing is the dividing line in a sense, 99 00:05:32,339 --> 00:05:34,859 Sean Aylmer: if we flip it to older Australians who have paid 100 00:05:34,860 --> 00:05:37,200 Sean Aylmer: off a lot of their home or own their home 101 00:05:37,589 --> 00:05:40,979 Sean Aylmer: outright, I presume the results are going to be different 102 00:05:41,459 --> 00:05:42,480 Sean Aylmer: in that cohort. 103 00:05:43,080 --> 00:05:45,390 Wade Tubman: Yeah, so the first thing is when we start talking 104 00:05:45,390 --> 00:05:48,420 Wade Tubman: about the construct of the wallet for older people, just 105 00:05:48,630 --> 00:05:51,630 Wade Tubman: the headline wallet looks different. So older people actually have 106 00:05:51,630 --> 00:05:54,570 Wade Tubman: a much higher proportion of their spend going to essentials, 107 00:05:54,660 --> 00:05:56,880 Wade Tubman: and that's because as we get older, I guess we 108 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:00,690 Wade Tubman: get more commitments, and also, assurance and comfort is more 109 00:06:00,690 --> 00:06:04,890 Wade Tubman: important to us. So for example, things like insurances are 110 00:06:04,890 --> 00:06:08,550 Wade Tubman: very important to older people. They're the second- highest category 111 00:06:08,550 --> 00:06:12,178 Wade Tubman: for older Australians, whereas insurance is a lot less important 112 00:06:12,178 --> 00:06:14,729 Wade Tubman: in the wallets of younger people. Also, then when we 113 00:06:14,730 --> 00:06:18,660 Wade Tubman: have a look at things like medical doctors, pharmacies, things 114 00:06:18,660 --> 00:06:21,539 Wade Tubman: like that, when we look at that, we find that 115 00:06:21,630 --> 00:06:24,420 Wade Tubman: older people, right now, are almost the exact opposite of 116 00:06:24,420 --> 00:06:29,040 Wade Tubman: younger people. We find they're actually increasing their spend on discretionary areas, but 117 00:06:29,040 --> 00:06:31,919 Wade Tubman: they're also increasing their spend on essentials, whereas younger people, 118 00:06:31,920 --> 00:06:35,010 Wade Tubman: as we just said, are doing the reverse. They're decreasing 119 00:06:35,010 --> 00:06:37,529 Wade Tubman: in both those categories. So you're almost at polar opposite 120 00:06:37,529 --> 00:06:38,430 Wade Tubman: ends of the spectrum. 121 00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,830 Sean Aylmer: And is that primarily because older people don't have rent/ 122 00:06:45,000 --> 00:06:48,450 Sean Aylmer: mortgages or at least generally are less likely to have rent/ 123 00:06:48,779 --> 00:06:51,539 Sean Aylmer: mortgages than younger people? Is that why they've got more money? 124 00:06:52,410 --> 00:06:54,990 Wade Tubman: So there's always a danger of averages, and there's certainly 125 00:06:55,529 --> 00:06:58,470 Wade Tubman: plenty of older people out there who could be on 126 00:06:58,470 --> 00:07:00,720 Wade Tubman: the government pension, could be renting and things like that. 127 00:07:01,529 --> 00:07:05,130 Wade Tubman: I keep saying there's 26,000,000 stories out there, but on 128 00:07:05,130 --> 00:07:09,960 Wade Tubman: average, yes, absolutely. On average, your 65 plus Australian has 129 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,090 Wade Tubman: going to have cleared the bulk of all of their 130 00:07:12,120 --> 00:07:15,510 Wade Tubman: mortgage and potentially has savings left. And if you've got 131 00:07:15,510 --> 00:07:19,050 Wade Tubman: savings, obviously interest rates now are a better source of 132 00:07:19,050 --> 00:07:22,380 Wade Tubman: income than they have been over the last decade. So 133 00:07:22,650 --> 00:07:26,760 Wade Tubman: yeah, no, absolutely. Also, when we think about older people, 134 00:07:27,839 --> 00:07:29,969 Wade Tubman: they still have significant wallets. One of the things we 135 00:07:29,969 --> 00:07:33,210 Wade Tubman: looked at was I guess how much people spend throughout 136 00:07:33,210 --> 00:07:38,220 Wade Tubman: their lives, and I guess we forget that actually, through 137 00:07:38,220 --> 00:07:41,700 Wade Tubman: our lives we have different levels of commitments. So the 138 00:07:41,700 --> 00:07:46,260 Wade Tubman: biggest spending ages in our 40s and 50s, and for many people, that's 139 00:07:46,260 --> 00:07:48,900 Wade Tubman: when you've got families, you've got a lot of bills 140 00:07:48,900 --> 00:07:51,750 Wade Tubman: coming in. But if we look at say 65 to 141 00:07:51,750 --> 00:07:56,520 Wade Tubman: 70s, they're still spending 80% plus of those peak spending 142 00:07:56,790 --> 00:08:02,309 Wade Tubman: years despite potentially being empty nesters. So throughout our life, 143 00:08:02,309 --> 00:08:05,429 Wade Tubman: we do have, I guess a slight change to our 144 00:08:05,430 --> 00:08:08,730 Wade Tubman: overall spending, but I guess what we spend on changes 145 00:08:09,090 --> 00:08:10,650 Wade Tubman: a lot. Our priorities change. 146 00:08:11,310 --> 00:08:13,710 Sean Aylmer: Does it matter where you live? I live in Sydney, 147 00:08:13,710 --> 00:08:16,949 Sean Aylmer: very expensive city. My mum lives in country New South 148 00:08:16,950 --> 00:08:18,630 Sean Aylmer: Wales, less expensive. 149 00:08:19,139 --> 00:08:24,119 Wade Tubman: Yeah, so again, I wouldn't say the elephant in the 150 00:08:24,119 --> 00:08:26,850 Wade Tubman: room, but the premise here is that a lot of 151 00:08:26,850 --> 00:08:30,210 Wade Tubman: the base stresses that are driving some of the behavioral 152 00:08:30,210 --> 00:08:33,419 Wade Tubman: change we're seeing here is due to rentals and mortgages, 153 00:08:34,020 --> 00:08:36,929 Wade Tubman: which in one way or another are largely driven by 154 00:08:36,960 --> 00:08:41,429 Wade Tubman: property prices. We do find that there is very significant 155 00:08:41,429 --> 00:08:45,540 Wade Tubman: differences in spending across the country, and that's even allowing 156 00:08:45,540 --> 00:08:49,050 Wade Tubman: for the demographic differences. There's certainly older suburbs and younger 157 00:08:49,050 --> 00:08:53,040 Wade Tubman: suburbs. What we find is that unlike other situations, if 158 00:08:53,040 --> 00:08:56,279 Wade Tubman: we look back to the GFC, for example, and other 159 00:08:56,280 --> 00:08:58,858 Wade Tubman: situations like that, regional Australia often does it a bit 160 00:08:58,859 --> 00:09:02,370 Wade Tubman: tougher, but certainly now and over the last 18 months 161 00:09:02,370 --> 00:09:06,420 Wade Tubman: odd that we've tracked this, regional Australia has outperformed our 162 00:09:06,420 --> 00:09:10,440 Wade Tubman: big metro centers. In particular, Sydney and Melbourne have exhibited 163 00:09:10,440 --> 00:09:13,620 Wade Tubman: a high degree of weakness in spending throughout that time, 164 00:09:13,620 --> 00:09:18,359 Wade Tubman: and you could see strong correlations between that and those 165 00:09:18,600 --> 00:09:22,110 Wade Tubman: high rentals and those high property prices. 166 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,189 Sean Aylmer: Wade, where do we go from here? Can you, from 167 00:09:26,190 --> 00:09:29,069 Sean Aylmer: the data, get a sense they're at the peak or 168 00:09:29,070 --> 00:09:33,988 Sean Aylmer: the nadir of the cost of living crisis, or is 169 00:09:33,990 --> 00:09:37,080 Sean Aylmer: it too early to tell? I like to leave every 170 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,880 Sean Aylmer: one of these interviews with a little bit of hope 171 00:09:38,880 --> 00:09:40,199 Sean Aylmer: here. So far it hasn't been great. Where are we up to? 172 00:09:42,030 --> 00:09:44,820 Wade Tubman: Where are we up to? So the one thing that has 173 00:09:44,820 --> 00:09:49,828 Wade Tubman: happened is when this became a topic that everyone started 174 00:09:49,830 --> 00:09:52,019 Wade Tubman: talking about, you couldn't go to a barbecue and not 175 00:09:52,020 --> 00:09:55,260 Wade Tubman: have someone mention it, a year, 18 months ago. It 176 00:09:55,260 --> 00:09:57,660 Wade Tubman: was about rent. It was about the mortgage and interest 177 00:09:57,660 --> 00:10:00,510 Wade Tubman: rates, and it was about inflation, just everything going up 178 00:10:00,510 --> 00:10:03,328 Wade Tubman: in price. So one thing that has these there is 179 00:10:03,330 --> 00:10:07,410 Wade Tubman: inflation. Back then, we were talking 7%, 8% inflation. Now 180 00:10:07,410 --> 00:10:10,859 Wade Tubman: we're talking inflation in the 3s. So one of those, 181 00:10:10,859 --> 00:10:14,010 Wade Tubman: so burdens has lifted, but now when we think about 182 00:10:14,010 --> 00:10:17,100 Wade Tubman: it, there are still some, I guess, hard to shake 183 00:10:17,160 --> 00:10:19,620 Wade Tubman: nuggets in there, and insurance is one of them. In 184 00:10:19,620 --> 00:10:23,069 Wade Tubman: the most recent data, we find that while inflation has 185 00:10:23,070 --> 00:10:25,080 Wade Tubman: come down a lot, it's like less than half of 186 00:10:25,080 --> 00:10:28,320 Wade Tubman: the rate it was a year ago, insurance is up 187 00:10:28,350 --> 00:10:31,828 Wade Tubman: 10%, for some groups, even up 12%, and that is 188 00:10:31,830 --> 00:10:34,200 Wade Tubman: having an impact on them. But a lot of the 189 00:10:34,200 --> 00:10:37,770 Wade Tubman: categories where we did see that high inflation have really 190 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:41,040 Wade Tubman: eased back. So where that leaves us, and I guess 191 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:44,040 Wade Tubman: it's hard for me to come up with an analogy 192 00:10:44,040 --> 00:10:47,008 Wade Tubman: or description, but what I have been saying to people 193 00:10:47,010 --> 00:10:49,468 Wade Tubman: is maybe last year when we have a look at 194 00:10:49,470 --> 00:10:52,080 Wade Tubman: the changes to spending people were making, they had two 195 00:10:52,080 --> 00:10:55,410 Wade Tubman: feet on the brakes. We really saw some significant changes 196 00:10:55,500 --> 00:10:58,830 Wade Tubman: in how people were spending. We saw a lot of 197 00:10:58,830 --> 00:11:02,070 Wade Tubman: categories. People were choosing to cut back by double digits. 198 00:11:02,070 --> 00:11:05,939 Wade Tubman: We were talking about 10% or 15% cuts in those areas people were 199 00:11:05,940 --> 00:11:08,490 Wade Tubman: choosing to do. Those numbers have eased back a lot. 200 00:11:08,790 --> 00:11:11,429 Wade Tubman: If I was to say anything, we haven't got two 201 00:11:11,429 --> 00:11:14,849 Wade Tubman: feet on the brakes anymore, and consumers maybe have one 202 00:11:14,849 --> 00:11:17,368 Wade Tubman: foot on the brake or maybe even just feathering the 203 00:11:17,370 --> 00:11:20,069 Wade Tubman: brake. It's maybe not the best analogy, but if you're 204 00:11:20,070 --> 00:11:22,740 Wade Tubman: after that glimmer of hope, I would definitely say the 205 00:11:22,799 --> 00:11:26,250 Wade Tubman: way the figures are trending is that we've made many 206 00:11:26,250 --> 00:11:28,740 Wade Tubman: of the changes to our lives that we've needed to 207 00:11:28,890 --> 00:11:32,250 Wade Tubman: as a result of these pressures. So we've, I guess, already 208 00:11:32,580 --> 00:11:36,059 Wade Tubman: taken a lot of the medicine. And certainly now, if 209 00:11:36,059 --> 00:11:38,250 Wade Tubman: we look to the year ahead, I think there's a 210 00:11:38,250 --> 00:11:40,919 Wade Tubman: lot of people looking towards the green shoots. We've got 211 00:11:40,920 --> 00:11:43,350 Wade Tubman: the tax cuts coming in the middle of the year. 212 00:11:43,920 --> 00:11:47,280 Wade Tubman: We're looking for interest rate cuts maybe at the back 213 00:11:47,280 --> 00:11:49,980 Wade Tubman: end of this year or early next year, and they're 214 00:11:49,980 --> 00:11:51,750 Wade Tubman: going to have flow on impacts to that. I can't 215 00:11:51,750 --> 00:11:54,088 Wade Tubman: speak for what's going to happen to rentals over that 216 00:11:54,090 --> 00:11:58,199 Wade Tubman: time, but no, no, definitely while things are still going 217 00:11:58,199 --> 00:12:01,830 Wade Tubman: down and that's disappointing for everyone, we'd hope that we 218 00:12:01,830 --> 00:12:03,930 Wade Tubman: would've bottomed out and be on our way out now. 219 00:12:04,350 --> 00:12:06,510 Wade Tubman: Definitely, as I said, a lot of the medicine has 220 00:12:06,510 --> 00:12:09,150 Wade Tubman: been taken, a lot of people have changed their spending, 221 00:12:09,540 --> 00:12:12,719 Wade Tubman: and we're now starting to see a lot of those 222 00:12:12,719 --> 00:12:16,859 Wade Tubman: trends starting to finish. And as I said, we're all 223 00:12:16,859 --> 00:12:19,559 Wade Tubman: hoping, looking up for the back half of this year. 224 00:12:20,160 --> 00:12:21,929 Sean Aylmer: Wade, thank you for talking to Fear and Greed. 225 00:12:22,290 --> 00:12:23,580 Wade Tubman: Thank you for having me again. 226 00:12:24,090 --> 00:12:28,230 Sean Aylmer: That was Wade Tubman, CommBank iQ's Head of Innovation and Analytics. 227 00:12:28,500 --> 00:12:30,839 Sean Aylmer: This is the Fear and Greed Business Interview. Join us 228 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:33,179 Sean Aylmer: every morning for the full episode of Fear and Greed, 229 00:12:33,179 --> 00:12:35,639 Sean Aylmer: daily business news for people who make their own decisions. 230 00:12:35,789 --> 00:12:37,620 Sean Aylmer: I'm Sean Aylmer. Enjoy your day.