Speaker 1: Apologie Production.
Speaker 2: Hi, my name's beck Woodbine and welcome to Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for the person that I have the opportunity
Speaker 1: to be, so I hit it and parked it for
Speaker 1: Nelly four years. We always have free will, We always
Speaker 1: get to choose.
Speaker 3: We are autonomous. Hi.
Speaker 2: Everyone, thank you for tuning back into Tenderness for Nurses.
Speaker 2: Today we have Shannon Swiles who was a psychologist. She
Speaker 2: has her own business called Burnout Psychology Support, And due
Speaker 2: to the overwhelming response to the question I put out
Speaker 2: about what you guys wanted to hear about, which was burnout,
Speaker 2: So I reached out to Shannon and asked her if
Speaker 2: she'd mind coming on the podcast because that is her specialty,
Speaker 2: and I wanted to make sure that when we talked
Speaker 2: about burnout that we had some great tips ideas understanding
Speaker 2: around burnout from a professional that deals with it on
Speaker 2: a daily basis with her own clients. She has her
Speaker 2: own podcast, What else do you do? Shannon? Oh God?
Speaker 1: I also write I have a blog up on Psychology today. Well,
Speaker 1: I write a lot about burnout, but also I wrote
Speaker 1: a book that was basically my journals of my burnout story.
Speaker 1: So I put that together in a book and that's
Speaker 1: a Bible two. So writing is a big part.
Speaker 2: Of what I do too. Okay, well, thank you so
Speaker 2: much for taking time out of your very busy schedule.
Speaker 2: I really appreciate you coming on to talk nursing burnout,
Speaker 2: healthcare providers burnout. I'm probably going to focus on healthcare
Speaker 2: providers nursing because overwhelmingly that is the people that listen
Speaker 2: to my podcast. However, it seems to be growing and
Speaker 2: we've got quite a lot of lay people for one
Speaker 2: of a better term out listening and the stories that
Speaker 2: we're sharing and the people we're sharing and they're really
Speaker 2: getting some great information. Because, let's be honest, burnout is
Speaker 2: across the board. You have your own story.
Speaker 1: But essentially my story hit a burnout hit its peak
Speaker 1: twenty fifth of February twenty twenty one. I still remember
Speaker 1: the day showed up to work and that was my
Speaker 1: very last day as a clinical psychologist at the time
Speaker 1: working in private practice full time. Probably had been doing
Speaker 1: that for about eight years, post my huge amount of
Speaker 1: training that you go through. Yeah, I was just completely
Speaker 1: my always often say my body gave in. It did
Speaker 1: the talking, and I had a couple of wonderful women
Speaker 1: in One was my director at the practice I worked at,
Speaker 1: and the other was my supervisor who basically just was
Speaker 1: there when I came to that realization just took almost
Speaker 1: like yeah, just there was the support to go, it's okay,
Speaker 1: it's okay to leave and look after yourself. I think
Speaker 1: without them I probably wouldn't have I would have kept pushing.
Speaker 1: But yeah, my body was pretty much at it's lowess.
Speaker 2: So yeah, can you explain that a little bit more.
Speaker 2: You went to work, Yeah, and you fell in a heap.
Speaker 2: You just felt sick, you didn't want to be there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, there was the above all of it. I mean
Speaker 1: there was a huge lead up. I mean I see
Speaker 1: this with my clients as well. When you look back.
Speaker 1: I lived in probably what you would call a high
Speaker 1: functioning anxiety state and definitely constant stress state for a
Speaker 1: long time, probably most of my life.
Speaker 2: So there was that build up.
Speaker 1: There was also a lack of holidays. It was the
Speaker 1: COVID year, that first year of COVID twenty twenty that
Speaker 1: led up to my twenty twenty one, so I didn't
Speaker 1: have my regular breaks, not that they ever completely restored
Speaker 1: my equilibrium. But they were of course I think what
Speaker 1: I often term a protective factor in keeping me somewhat buoyant.
Speaker 1: So that was out of the picture. And of course,
Speaker 1: as we know, and your nurses and other health practitioner
Speaker 1: will know, how much pressure and I always felt the
Speaker 1: weight of responsibility, even if it wasn't there yet. I
Speaker 1: could seeing the kind of future and go oh, I
Speaker 1: already saw that there was going to be a mental
Speaker 1: health crisis, and like we already had full books. So
Speaker 1: I was just feeling that pressure and not having that
Speaker 1: reprieve of time away. So there was a lot of
Speaker 1: I was waking up tired. I no amount of sleep
Speaker 1: would restore. I was losing pleasure in things I once
Speaker 1: found pleasure in. My motivation was low. I was irritable
Speaker 1: just after my husband he says, you were snappy. He
Speaker 1: knew something was up before I did. And I was
Speaker 1: losing the care for my pain and for my clients,
Speaker 1: which was one of the things that really made me go,
Speaker 1: I need to do something, And I was trying to
Speaker 1: do something. I was trying to step away from the
Speaker 1: one on one therapy work and diversify into like group
Speaker 1: work or something else to balance. But it all came
Speaker 1: a little bit too late, and I wasn't getting a
Speaker 1: lot of success trying to find that different way to work.
Speaker 1: It's just a little bit too late that I actually
Speaker 1: needed to step away not work with the level of
Speaker 1: burnout I had. But those were some of the signs
Speaker 1: and some of the things that looking back, especially the
Speaker 1: we term it like a depersonalization, or I sometimes call
Speaker 1: a disconnection where there was connection before to your clients
Speaker 1: as you call them patients, or yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what were the next steps you took ah therapy?
Speaker 1: I I wrote myself off in times of Okay, you're
Speaker 1: not going to work, and that was really hard because
Speaker 1: work was my identity, My role was my identity. My
Speaker 1: contribution to the world was my work. Yeah, that took
Speaker 1: a lot to say no to the work, and I
Speaker 1: even battled that as I was not working. So that
Speaker 1: was the first step to not work at all. I
Speaker 1: didn't know how long that was going to last, or
Speaker 1: how long the money would last. To do that and
Speaker 1: then take myself off to therapy, went to see my doctor,
Speaker 1: got an appointment, got a mental health care plan as
Speaker 1: we call it here Australia, and started to see a psychologist.
Speaker 1: Those were the two things that's in my mind. I
Speaker 1: need to not work. Although this is painful and I
Speaker 1: need to I need help. I can't do this on
Speaker 1: my own. I can't help myself. I can, but I
Speaker 1: need help.
Speaker 2: How hard did you find that?
Speaker 1: I actually find it. I've been in therapy before, so
Speaker 1: I find again. I think it's that I can talk
Speaker 1: to strangers easy. So it was telling my parents, it
Speaker 1: was telling my husband. It was opening up to people
Speaker 1: I have an emotional relationship with that I feared, even
Speaker 1: though there's no grounds for it. I feared rejection. I
Speaker 1: feared that they would think less of me. But with
Speaker 1: a psychologist, well that's their job, and I had enough
Speaker 1: experience with psychologists and good ones to feel comfortable going there.
Speaker 2: Is the journey still ongoing.
Speaker 1: I think the journey's ongoing, but it's more of the
Speaker 1: journey of self connection and taking care of myself and
Speaker 1: considering my needs, which you know weren't in the picture
Speaker 1: before and was a contributor to my burnout. And I'm
Speaker 1: not alone in that. A lot of people's burnout includes that.
Speaker 1: I think that journey's just ongoing because you know, forty
Speaker 1: years prior to my burnout, you know it's forty one
Speaker 1: when I burnt out that I lived in a certain way,
Speaker 1: and you know, I was a perfectionist. I was a
Speaker 1: people pleaser, I was a self sacrificer. I was pretty
Speaker 1: much all the things you can tick the boxes of
Speaker 1: risk factors for burnout, and these are behavioral patterns and
Speaker 1: they stem into your belief system and a lot of
Speaker 1: it's unconscious. So I feel that works still ongoing. Like perfectionism.
Speaker 1: No longer has I saved my clients, no longer has
Speaker 1: the driver's seat, But it's not that she isn't in
Speaker 1: there in the passenger seat.
Speaker 2: Yeah, just whispering occasionally. You run your own business now,
Speaker 2: so you pick your hours. Yes, I was pretty burnt
Speaker 2: out twenty twenty one. Oh yeah, and a year of work.
Speaker 2: There was a hot mess for a hot minute. Do
Speaker 2: you find there is a particular group or profession that
Speaker 2: tends to have a higher burnout rate than others?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think both definitely. Professionally, it usually is the
Speaker 1: professions that there's high a number of women in, so teachers, nurses,
Speaker 1: any health professional particularly, Like there's a lot of research
Speaker 1: that is done on nurses and burnout, which is great,
Speaker 1: but yeah, health professional is definitely anyone who's client facing,
Speaker 1: person facing, and not just any person vulnerable people also
Speaker 1: nurses into ice workers, oh, caregivers, cares, non paid and
Speaker 1: paid parent you know, like you're constantly with your kids
Speaker 1: and women, we tend to be high numbers in these
Speaker 1: kinds of jobs. And then you know, a percentage of
Speaker 1: us go on to have kids and raise kids. I
Speaker 1: chose not to. But it's you know, there's that you know,
Speaker 1: they're vulnerable, they're dependent on you, they require you. It's
Speaker 1: twenty four seven so and the research does back that
Speaker 1: up too, that it's professions where you're client facing, they're vulnerable.
Speaker 1: And there's also a lot of research and I've seen
Speaker 1: it clinically too, where there's certain I say types of people,
Speaker 1: but behavioral patterns and certain personalities that are more at rest,
Speaker 1: like introverts and more at risk. We don't choose to
Speaker 1: be introverts. I'm an introvert. People who are more conscientious
Speaker 1: and neurotic are more at risk. Ask personalogy, It's like yeah,
Speaker 1: and it's not, well, we were born when you were
Speaker 1: born with our personalities, you know, and then you know
Speaker 1: other things behavioral patterns. You know, I got into We
Speaker 1: won't get into how that happened, but you know I
Speaker 1: went through that in therapy. But perfectionism, you know, having
Speaker 1: unrelenting standards self worth based on what I achieved, you know,
Speaker 1: and our culture sets us up for that, you know,
Speaker 1: especially as women. So we know there's a lot of
Speaker 1: research around people with perfectionism beliefs and behavioral patterns are
Speaker 1: more likely to burn out. Women. Just being a woman,
Speaker 1: you're more at risk of burnout. Being a woman who
Speaker 1: is married, you're more at risk of burnout.
Speaker 2: Is that right?
Speaker 1: And you're especially like our neurodivergence, more risk of burnout
Speaker 1: as well. So if you're diagnose with autism or ADHD,
Speaker 1: more at risk chronic film.
Speaker 2: Yeah this, Yeah, I just found I in my own business,
Speaker 2: couldn't say no to anybody or that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're not saying no. Yeah.
Speaker 2: And I would go in early, does this one? Or
Speaker 2: I'd stay back late to see someone, or I would
Speaker 2: take that phone call, or I'd answer that Instagram message.
Speaker 2: And I've got a great team around me now who
Speaker 2: helped manage me with that. But it's a constant. I
Speaker 2: constantly have to manage it because I will go out
Speaker 2: of my way to people please. Yeah, and it's not
Speaker 2: even easing the word people please, because I will stick
Speaker 2: up for myself and that way I need to.
Speaker 1: But oh maybe it Well, you bring up a really
Speaker 1: good because that behavior of not being able to say no,
Speaker 1: there could be many drivers or a combination of It
Speaker 1: could be a bit of people pleasing, but it could
Speaker 1: also I've heard and seen and it wasn't for me,
Speaker 1: but like they were really excited, you know, like that
Speaker 1: project seemed really interesting. They really genuinely wanted. It was
Speaker 1: more impulsive maybe like for them, you know, there was
Speaker 1: more of an impulsivity, so there wasn't the slowing down
Speaker 1: to consciously think. It was just like, oh that looks interesting,
Speaker 1: I want to do it. So yeah, it wasn't driven
Speaker 1: primarily by people pleasing for them, but this, well that
Speaker 1: just sounds interesting and I don't want to miss out.
Speaker 1: So the no behavior could be driven by many things
Speaker 1: as probably not a simple answer as like people pleasing.
Speaker 1: It was for me and my worth based on what
Speaker 1: other people thought of me, So I people please to
Speaker 1: get that hit of I feel good, even though I
Speaker 1: wasn't consciously thinking that, but it made sense when I
Speaker 1: could make that connection for me. You know that that's
Speaker 1: what it was about. And as I mentioned earlier, my
Speaker 1: identity was all about work and particularly not being a mother,
Speaker 1: which again was by choice. But I put all my
Speaker 1: eggs into the work basket. Then you know, I'm all
Speaker 1: about my career because culture, again they either value a
Speaker 1: woman as career or mother or both. And I was like, well,
Speaker 1: I'm not a mother, so all I have to offer
Speaker 1: is career. And again this wasn't conscious, but we know
Speaker 1: that stuff like it's in a you know.
Speaker 2: What are the signs and let's focus on healthcare professionals.
Speaker 2: What are the signs that you may be heading towards out?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I feel like drawing on here. There's a classification
Speaker 1: of burnout that the World Health Organization adopts, which comes
Speaker 1: from the research, and I think it really then gives
Speaker 1: you others something to look out for. But I'll go
Speaker 1: into symptoms as well, particularly for healthcare. But they talk
Speaker 1: about and they adopt this researchers classification maslak and emotional exhaustion.
Speaker 1: So this is a type of exhaustion that yeah, no matter,
Speaker 1: sleep will help you feel great and rejuvenated. But some
Speaker 1: of my clients or people will just say, like, it's
Speaker 1: almost like a soul tired or mind body, and soul
Speaker 1: is what I called it, tired, like we just yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a different level of tide. But what they've noticed
Speaker 1: is women particularly are more likely to experience that sign
Speaker 1: of burnout emotional exhaustion than men. Men tend to And
Speaker 1: this is another sign is that you might notice in
Speaker 1: health professionals. This one can be big. Is like a
Speaker 1: that disc I mentioned earlier, that depersonalization, Like you might
Speaker 1: be saying to yourself, and I said this to myself,
Speaker 1: I'm pretending to care today. I mean, of course I
Speaker 1: showed up for my clients, but I wasn't connected. I
Speaker 1: wasn't there like I used to be. You know, I
Speaker 1: was playing a role. So you might notice you're separating
Speaker 1: a bit. There might be some cynicism or negativism towards
Speaker 1: your job that wasn't there before. You might notice that
Speaker 1: you're snapping or irritable to maybe not at work because
Speaker 1: you can hold it together there, but maybe at home
Speaker 1: because that's where you just let those defenses down. But
Speaker 1: you know, your stressed out body is just reactive. And
Speaker 1: the other one is that you might notice not everyone
Speaker 1: gets this one better sense of your self efficacy, your
Speaker 1: belief in you, in your ability to do your job
Speaker 1: might be lowered, or just a sense of achievement or
Speaker 1: getting somewhere. I got that one. I just felt like
Speaker 1: I'm getting nowhere.
Speaker 2: If you signed a question going to work, why you
Speaker 2: like work? You're not feeling joy in anything. It is
Speaker 2: feeling a bit flat. And you're in that mid forties
Speaker 2: age group. If you're a female and presenting with these feelings.
Speaker 2: Is it something that you do talk about. Is that hormones?
Speaker 2: Hormones impact all of this, you know, maybe go get
Speaker 2: some levels done with your GP, go see your gynecologists.
Speaker 2: Is that something you do discuss with your patients.
Speaker 1: Yeah, at some point, At some point, it depends what
Speaker 1: the crisis point is. And most of the time, by
Speaker 1: the time they see me, they're in crisis. It could
Speaker 1: be that you know, I'm going to get a divorce
Speaker 1: like or I'm going to divorce my husband. The relationships
Speaker 1: in crisis, or their health is in crisis. They've had
Speaker 1: a heart attack, they've been diagnosed with type two diabetes
Speaker 1: because chronic stress does impact the body, or they're on
Speaker 1: sickly from work because of the burnout so you know
Speaker 1: it does come up at some point, Yes, about hormones
Speaker 1: and chronic stress on body is going to affect your
Speaker 1: with your mines. Yeah, it's going to affect so many things.
Speaker 1: So having a doctor who has that very holistic understanding
Speaker 1: and in women's health as well, and a doctor you
Speaker 1: feel safe enough with, and if you don't have one,
Speaker 1: start working on that because they can be your first
Speaker 1: point a call. The great thing about a really great
Speaker 1: GP is I sort of see them as the center
Speaker 1: of the health, you know, and then they can refer
Speaker 1: off to Okay, like if you don't have one already,
Speaker 1: but a gynocologist or a naturopath or a psychologist or
Speaker 1: they can organize that multi interdisciplinary, multidisciplinary approach to what's
Speaker 1: showing up. Because burnout isn't I always say a bio psychosocial, spiritual.
Speaker 1: It's not a classified medical condition but phenomena, and we
Speaker 1: need to approach it in that way. Overhear psychologists. I
Speaker 1: can work on the psychological part and a bit on
Speaker 1: the social, but then we need the other professionals, Like
Speaker 1: with biology, you might need a naturopath, you might need
Speaker 1: the gynocologists, you might need definitely need your doctor I
Speaker 1: think for the person who they want to go to.
Speaker 1: I mean, definitely go to a GP first if you
Speaker 1: have a GE or finding one. But hey, if you
Speaker 1: decide to go explore the SIKE because you don't need
Speaker 1: to referral from your GP, you can go straight to
Speaker 1: a pych. Obviously, having mentalth care plan will certainly help
Speaker 1: with cost of seeing a SICH. Go where you're ready
Speaker 1: to go to. That's okay. Any starting point is a
Speaker 1: starting point.
Speaker 2: Funny, I fractured my back right at the end of
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three and fractured my sacrum. The whole way through,
Speaker 2: I was hot mess and it was the most painful thing.
Speaker 2: And in the n I saw my GP, and I'm
Speaker 2: seeing a Cairo An acupuncturist and I asked for a
Speaker 2: mental health plan. And since I've been seeing those three,
Speaker 2: I'm getting there. I'm feeling it's feeling much better. And
Speaker 2: it sort of made me start to wonder, is the
Speaker 2: back pain related to the brain to so, you know,
Speaker 2: other things? Too much on your plate again, And it's
Speaker 2: so easy as women that we're so used to Oh yeah,
Speaker 2: I can do that, and I can do that, and
Speaker 2: I'll be right, I'll do that and yes, I'll see
Speaker 2: you know that extra patient or da da.
Speaker 1: Da, they're pushing through.
Speaker 2: I can do it. And then you know where I
Speaker 2: was so diligent, I have found, you know, in the
Speaker 2: last few months, and I'm starting to put more and
Speaker 2: more and more on my plate. It's just by default,
Speaker 2: it's just happening, being invited to the you know, you
Speaker 2: have to be so mindful all the time and get
Speaker 2: used to saying no. If you've ever been.
Speaker 1: In burnout, definitely, and if you're not in burnout yet,
Speaker 1: but some of the early signs start getting used to
Speaker 1: know now because you can prevent you know, the big
Speaker 1: burnout and to the point that your body collapses on you.
Speaker 1: And I mean it's serious stuff, burnout like you cutting
Speaker 1: your vascular disease type two bees it. Burnout is a chronic.
Speaker 2: They've found that thyroid oh yep, a lot of the
Speaker 2: autoimmune conditions are related to burnout or related to stress.
Speaker 1: Well, I mean, when we're talking about burnout, burnout is
Speaker 1: a chron stress phenomena. So it is. I was about
Speaker 1: to say, just it's such a limiting word. It is
Speaker 1: chronic stress. As we put a label burnout on it,
Speaker 1: and at the moment burnout is like they say it's
Speaker 1: occupational phenomena, that the chronic stressor is work related, but
Speaker 1: they've opened that up more to where there's a load,
Speaker 1: like a particularly a load, a responsibility load, So that
Speaker 1: load can come from work, but it also can come
Speaker 1: from home, it can come from within as well, the
Speaker 1: loads we put on ourselves. But it's still considered a
Speaker 1: work related chronic stressor. And it's the fact that it's
Speaker 1: chronic because we're all built to be able to deal
Speaker 1: with acute stress, yes, but chronic stress is we never
Speaker 1: get a break. Our body never gets a chance to
Speaker 1: rest and recover and to step out of that stress or.
Speaker 1: And our bodies are still designed to need that, and
Speaker 1: we need to create a lifestyle that allows for that. Unfortunately,
Speaker 1: our culture really glamorizes I know that's not a word,
Speaker 1: but it does. Yeah, let's just make that a word,
Speaker 1: the hustle, the being everything. I mean as women, there's
Speaker 1: what now the four am club or the three am club.
Speaker 2: So you get up at five am and you do this,
Speaker 2: and you do that, and then you run ten kilometers
Speaker 2: and then you've read fifty pages of a book and
Speaker 2: you do.
Speaker 1: This three am clubs.
Speaker 2: It's a five am plum, it's four am. It's freaking
Speaker 2: ridiculous because no one long term, in my opinion.
Speaker 1: Oh.
Speaker 2: Maintain getting up at that hour going to bed, that
Speaker 2: like doing the amount of exos they're doing, right, Like
Speaker 2: I called bullshit on it.
Speaker 1: Really I reckon. We're both science, evidence based trained people,
Speaker 1: but I would say pretty much nobody is designed to
Speaker 1: be able to withstand that forever, you know, because what
Speaker 1: I understand about the body and what I've learned about
Speaker 1: the body physiology, it's not set up for that. It's
Speaker 1: not we haven't evolved into being able to hold that
Speaker 1: level of chronic on because even good things stressful for
Speaker 1: the body. But just meaning our central nervous system is up,
Speaker 1: you know, it's activated. You know we're on.
Speaker 2: It needs to be off. So what happens then? And
Speaker 2: how do nurses and doctors deal with situations where they're
Speaker 2: going to the emergency department all the time and so
Speaker 2: for example it's at Logan or PA or the Royal
Speaker 2: Marta and it just pumps all the time, so you're
Speaker 2: on all the time, or you're a surgeon or a
Speaker 2: registrar or someone and you have to be switched on.
Speaker 2: And don't get me wrong, when I was a scrub
Speaker 2: nurse and that you know, and work in the operating theaters,
Speaker 2: I got to say I loved it. I loved being
Speaker 2: on time. I loved the pressure of it. I loved
Speaker 2: running on time, having everything organized, having that instrumentation ready
Speaker 2: for that surgeon. But I didn't do a urgency surgeries.
Speaker 2: I worked in a private hospital, you know, the only
Speaker 2: time we did emergencies was when I went and worked
Speaker 2: at the Royal Women's I think I spoke about it
Speaker 2: in a previous podcast. It literally was see one, Do one,
Speaker 2: Teach One. So I'd never done a caesar before I
Speaker 2: went in. I saw them do one. I was the
Speaker 2: scout nurse. I then had to do a caesar, and
Speaker 2: I had enough experience as a theateris to be able
Speaker 2: to cope with it. But no one told me the
Speaker 2: amount of blood fluid, you know, like it was out
Speaker 2: there that we lost that baby. That's why I was
Speaker 2: going in and I was heavily pregnant. Oh God, And
Speaker 2: then I had to teach the next person coming on
Speaker 2: how to do a So literally it was see one,
Speaker 2: do one, Teach one, which is such a nursing thing
Speaker 2: to say back in the day, you know, see one,
Speaker 2: do one, teach one.
Speaker 1: But that was an expectation, or is an expectation.
Speaker 2: I think it probably still is an expectation. And so
Speaker 2: I'm quite a I'm lucky. I'm a visual person. So
Speaker 2: if you show me, I'm okay, it worked for me.
Speaker 2: If I sat down and read it, I'd have to
Speaker 2: read it ten times before it stuck. And I think
Speaker 2: about that now. I couldn't go into a situation like
Speaker 2: that now in theater, in that high stress. And it
Speaker 2: makes me wonder how people cope long term in emergency.
Speaker 2: Emergency is consultants, paramedics. I mean, I know there's a
Speaker 2: huge burnout rate in paramedics, you know, but how do
Speaker 2: those people unless they have that mindset of being able
Speaker 2: to compartmentalize, how do you hope every day?
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's not a simple answer. But my
Speaker 1: brain goes to the systems need to change. It's not
Speaker 1: just an individual's responsibility to work on and work on
Speaker 1: the things that they might be bringing in that is
Speaker 1: contributing to their burnout. And that might be things like
Speaker 1: the perfectionist mindset to the behavioral pattern. It might be
Speaker 1: not being able to say no or taking on extra chefs,
Speaker 1: you know, whatever they're bringing to the table, working on that.
Speaker 1: But the system is also needing to take responsibility. You know,
Speaker 1: there's already a lot of research around what they can
Speaker 1: be doing and what could be helpful to prevent, if
Speaker 1: not also respond, but ideally prevent. And it's really hard,
Speaker 1: I think when we're looking at particular industries where those
Speaker 1: answers aren't really simple to come by. I mean, you know, health,
Speaker 1: you know there's so much need in the public right.
Speaker 1: I know these aren't simple answers. But if we can
Speaker 1: all get on board and understand that these are humans.
Speaker 1: Nurses are human, doctors a human, You're all humans, and
Speaker 1: you're inner body, and we're all different. We all have
Speaker 1: our own DNA and mean DNA, I just mean our
Speaker 1: way of working, our own personalities, our own learning ways.
Speaker 1: And again, I know the system can't cater for everyone,
Speaker 1: I know, but if we can all realize and systems
Speaker 1: and people creating the systems or working on the systems,
Speaker 1: is that's a human that you know, you're employing humans
Speaker 1: and they're fallible, they're not perfect, they're not AI. I
Speaker 1: always say that they're not like a machine that can
Speaker 1: just keep going. What can we do to support and
Speaker 1: again the research is like okay, like making sure supervision regularly,
Speaker 1: making sure there's debriefing, and not just talk to it,
Speaker 1: but actually create it, not just go. I think EAPs
Speaker 1: are great, don't get me wrong, but how about create
Speaker 1: I think one of the best things I had throughout
Speaker 1: my early career was a network of psychs, like a
Speaker 1: group peers support that I could go to and sit
Speaker 1: down with. Unfortunately, we weren't at the stage of being
Speaker 1: able to talk about and I have this now, but
Speaker 1: where we can talk about the realities of our work,
Speaker 1: how it was affecting us, and how we were feeling.
Speaker 1: We're talking more about the cases and stuff, but I'm
Speaker 1: talking about supervision where amongst peers, where you can talk
Speaker 1: about the realities of your work, you can say, oh
Speaker 1: my god, you know that. But workplaces mandating that.
Speaker 2: See, we're trying to bring clinical supervision into nursing. It's
Speaker 2: not it's not mandate, no mental health, they're trying to
Speaker 2: do that.
Speaker 1: Yeah, we oh, it's mandated for us to attend clinical supervision.
Speaker 1: But we're talking about now because clinical supervision is often
Speaker 1: taken up by the cases and learning and professional development,
Speaker 1: which great, that's what it's there for, and that's a
Speaker 1: protective factor. But we need the kind of emotional support
Speaker 1: because we are dealing with vulnerable human beings. You just
Speaker 1: shared a horrific thing that you went through. That. Yeah,
Speaker 1: support groups from your peers that you may choose not
Speaker 1: to access, but it being there and accessible at some
Speaker 1: point and not again. That might be some people's cup
Speaker 1: of tea to go to an eap stranger and my
Speaker 1: cup of tea, but they've seen a lot of value
Speaker 1: in the research of those industries or workplaces that have
Speaker 1: these kind of peers support and led by you know someone.
Speaker 2: I think really that's the key point. You know. I'm
Speaker 2: on a few different groups. In groups on Facebook, I
Speaker 2: find the really toxic, and you know, there's lots of
Speaker 2: differing opinions and who should be alount and who shouldn't
Speaker 2: be allowed. I think what you said is like a
Speaker 2: group setting that's lad and I think needs to have
Speaker 2: quite strict guidelines as well. Yeah, and I know the
Speaker 2: people that set the face group mean well, but not
Speaker 2: everyone that's on there is going to you know, and
Speaker 2: you can't have an administrator if they're working as well.
Speaker 1: This is a side hustle, right, absolutely, same with some
Speaker 1: of our Facebook groups too, the people administrating them, moderating them. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it's a side hustle. It's a really important thing they're doing.
Speaker 1: But those groups can end up becoming toxic and not
Speaker 1: a safe restship future, because it needs to be a
Speaker 1: sense of safety that you feel safe enough to be vulnerable,
Speaker 1: because that's we need to be able to share what
Speaker 1: we're feeling and share what's going on. And there's so
Speaker 1: much benefit reported when you do that with a peer
Speaker 1: who gets your job, because you don't have to share
Speaker 1: the ins and outs, Whereas if you're getting that support
Speaker 1: from your loved one or a psychologist, you might need
Speaker 1: to explain a little bit more because they don't get
Speaker 1: your industry. But if we have industry inside, peers support,
Speaker 1: you know, and safe enough, and maybe that's led by
Speaker 1: an outsider or a nurse who's trained in mental health
Speaker 1: or something that you know they have the tools needed
Speaker 1: to moderate a group whatever they need and provide a
Speaker 1: safe enough space face to face online face faces often
Speaker 1: you know a lot better, but online something too that
Speaker 1: you can meet and I know these are big calls
Speaker 1: but God, that would make a difference. I know it
Speaker 1: makes a huge difference to my life now. Like I
Speaker 1: had the clinical support, you know, because it was mandated,
Speaker 1: but I now seek regular supervision where I just share
Speaker 1: what I'm feeling.
Speaker 2: Kathy Flanagan, who's one of the director of nurses Logan Hospital,
Speaker 2: was one of the first people he interviewed, and she
Speaker 2: was my mentor when I went through the operating theaters.
Speaker 2: It's and Andrew's love it a pieces amazing nurse and
Speaker 2: they have brought in different steps into the emergency department
Speaker 2: down at Logan Hospital where they try and do a debrief.
Speaker 2: There's been some and there are some pretty horrific things
Speaker 2: that come into that ED, and they keep an eye
Speaker 2: on who participates in the debrief or who removes themselves
Speaker 2: or who you know they're They're looking at the body language,
Speaker 2: that sort of thing to make sure that everyone's okay.
Speaker 2: And when I say there's been some horrific things, there
Speaker 2: have been some horrific things. I can imagine there and
Speaker 2: all the EDS and you know, and it's probably getting worse,
Speaker 2: but and I thought that was really great and insightful
Speaker 2: that you know, someone was watching to make sure that
Speaker 2: everyone was participating and you know, not necessarily having to
Speaker 2: be heard, because some people will talk and something won't,
Speaker 2: but the body language and taking part of that, you know,
Speaker 2: group get together to talk debrief and she said, you
Speaker 2: know it has it has been valuable.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think that's so important. Made me remember
Speaker 1: a piece of research or understanding another protective factor that
Speaker 1: organizations can do. I mean the debriefing, but also monitoring.
Speaker 1: And it sounds a little bit horrible like monitoring, but
Speaker 1: really having some procedures.
Speaker 2: Sometimes people just want someone to say you okay.
Speaker 1: Exactly privately, exactly like it might be this is just
Speaker 1: not the forum for me. But if you pull me
Speaker 1: up and here we go into a quiet room or whatever,
Speaker 1: and people just want to be checked in. It's not
Speaker 1: that they're expecting solutions from you or even you know,
Speaker 1: managers and leaders in the health, you know, to be
Speaker 1: the psychologist or to be the therapist. No, but like
Speaker 1: often it's creating that space to be heard and it
Speaker 1: might be then that next step here, hey, have you
Speaker 1: thought about seeing your doctor or you know whatever stats,
Speaker 1: but checking in monitoring, because there is a human in
Speaker 1: that nursing. We often talk. There's a human in that
Speaker 1: therapist's chair who is hearing a lot of stuff and
Speaker 1: feeling a lot of stuff, who needs to be tended
Speaker 1: to as well, And that shouldn't be all on that person.
Speaker 1: We need other people. We need people to check in
Speaker 1: on us. And it's not necessarily you know, I always
Speaker 1: said to my husband, you don't have to be my therapist.
Speaker 1: Sometimes I feel like, yeah, I know, but you know,
Speaker 1: I just needed a lesson and a whole space for me
Speaker 1: every now and again, you know, to check in on me,
Speaker 1: especially in those stages.
Speaker 2: And that you've just hold space for someone. You know,
Speaker 2: we talk about women and our emotions and our hormones
Speaker 2: and all that sort of stuff. But I think sometimes,
Speaker 2: you know, I have no doubt there are plenty of
Speaker 2: men out there that have suffered burnout, but it just
Speaker 2: presents in such a completely different way.
Speaker 1: They often more present that depersonalization, disconnection. They've become a
Speaker 1: lot more cynical and negative. Is often again that is,
Speaker 1: you know, not every man, but they research shows that
Speaker 1: they tend to present that way. But yeah, and then
Speaker 1: we think about our men who were once boys brought
Speaker 1: up particularly I think about gen X because that's my generation.
Speaker 1: But they were shamed for having emotions. You know, not
Speaker 1: that I'm not in the game of blaming parents. They
Speaker 1: did what they knew to help their kids. But we
Speaker 1: grew a generation of men who weren't able to express
Speaker 1: their feelings. And that's the very thing we need to survive.
Speaker 1: Will survive, but thriving this world is to be able
Speaker 1: to be with our emotions and being able to be
Speaker 1: with other peoples and hold space for It's not a
Speaker 1: problem to be solved emotions or really fantastic information about
Speaker 1: our humanness. And if we're in the field of working
Speaker 1: with vulnerable others and we're seeing a lot of things
Speaker 1: emergency like, we gotta have.
Speaker 2: Emotions, but you hope we do.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I just yeah, emotions are so important and they're
Speaker 1: key to hold space for and too, because that's just
Speaker 1: us being human. It seems so simple, but it is
Speaker 1: so hard to do because we're not taught to do that.
Speaker 2: But yeah, the number one thing I've taken from today
Speaker 2: is a if someone approaches you or you are noticing
Speaker 2: a colleagues bit off, you just ask the question, are
Speaker 2: you okay? You show a bit of tenderness, are you okay?
Speaker 2: Best thing for you to do is go, I'm here
Speaker 2: if you need me.
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, But I suppose where my mind just went
Speaker 1: and my heart space is, And this is where it's
Speaker 1: difficult a lot of us. It takes energy to hold
Speaker 1: space for other people, even with saying that simple statement
Speaker 1: or are you okay? I'm here for you, And often
Speaker 1: we don't have that in us. It's not that we're
Speaker 1: not capable, it's not that we don't have our hearts
Speaker 1: and they go out to this person. We don't have
Speaker 1: the bandwidth for the capacity because we're all running around
Speaker 1: like chickens with the heads cut off, you know, like
Speaker 1: we're all trying to keep up. And I'm not saying that,
Speaker 1: I'm just acknowledging that if you know when you're hearing, yeah,
Speaker 1: to check in on another person is okay if you
Speaker 1: don't have it right now, yeah, Like, don't beat yourself
Speaker 1: up for that. You're a human too, living in this world,
Speaker 1: and if you don't have capacity, maybe it is that
Speaker 1: you pass it on to someone else. Be aware of
Speaker 1: your capacity, and it's okay if your capacity is zilch
Speaker 1: right now and you can't be there if you're noticing
Speaker 1: you don't have the bandwidth to be with somebody for
Speaker 1: someone else. Maybe that's because you yourself are burnt out,
Speaker 1: that you're suffering, so it's time for the oxygen mask
Speaker 1: for you. Because once I ask, oxygen mask is there
Speaker 1: and you're getting what you need, you'll be able to
Speaker 1: have space for others, you know.
Speaker 3: That's what it.
Speaker 1: The biggest driver for me to get well was so
Speaker 1: I could be there for others because I noticed and realized, well,
Speaker 1: I can't anymore be there for other people, and I
Speaker 1: now do it very differently. I'm there for others also
Speaker 1: being there for me. It's like we both have our
Speaker 1: oxygen masks on, Like you take care of you oxygen
Speaker 1: masks and I've got an ox masks. But hey, sometimes
Speaker 1: we come together and we share oxygen masks or you.
Speaker 2: Know, Shannon, would you be interested in coming back on love?
Speaker 2: I love to talk great. What we might do, guys
Speaker 2: is why don't we put it out there for those
Speaker 2: of you who are listening and have some questions around burnout?
Speaker 2: How about you shoot them in DM me email me.
Speaker 2: I'll put the email address on the show notes and
Speaker 2: you can DM me either via Facebook with Tenderness Nurses
Speaker 2: or the Instagram handle. And when we've got a few.
Speaker 2: We'll get Shannon back and I'll go through the questions.
Speaker 2: What do you think about that?
Speaker 1: I love that and that way, anything that they're still
Speaker 1: sitting with and want to ask. Yeah, I can be
Speaker 1: here to answered.
Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea. And because burnout, by
Speaker 2: far and away has been the number one question we've
Speaker 2: had on Tendinnus for nurses, because nurses are just leaving
Speaker 2: in droves, the feeling exhausted, burnt out, tired, used, used, underpaid.
Speaker 3: I could keep going, really, I all the things that
Speaker 3: I've learned that are risk factors for burnout from that
Speaker 3: organizational system perspective and also individual but especially systemic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, nurses tick the boxes. So I'm not surprised when
Speaker 1: you reached out to me that burnout was your number one.
Speaker 1: I'm like, and there's a lot more talk about it,
Speaker 1: so I feel people might be more open to go, hey,
Speaker 1: I need help, baby, Well I need answers on this.
Speaker 2: Yeah, no one seeing you and I have both lived
Speaker 2: through it, and it is horrendous.
Speaker 1: Like I was about to swear, one hundred percent horrendous.
Speaker 2: It's horrible. And I'll be back in touch with lots
Speaker 2: of questions because I can tell you they'll be coming.
Speaker 1: I'll be happy to answer it whenever I'm doing you
Speaker 1: know things. Yeah, like just ask me questions rather than
Speaker 1: be talking to you, ask me question.
Speaker 2: Thanks O buying