1
00:00:00,800 --> 00:00:04,800
Speaker 1: This is a hard chat this next one because joining

2
00:00:04,840 --> 00:00:07,040
Speaker 1: me on the line is Wayne Holdsworth. He is the

3
00:00:07,080 --> 00:00:11,479
Speaker 1: founder of smack Talk, which you can find on line

4
00:00:11,520 --> 00:00:15,440
Speaker 1: smack Talk and the Mac in smack is named after

5
00:00:15,480 --> 00:00:19,560
Speaker 1: his son Mac who tragically a year ago took his

6
00:00:19,680 --> 00:00:25,600
Speaker 1: life seventeen because he was being blackmailed sexual extortion on

7
00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,880
Speaker 1: social media and as part of smack Talk, and Wayne

8
00:00:30,920 --> 00:00:33,400
Speaker 1: was here in Adelaide I understand recently where he addressed

9
00:00:33,440 --> 00:00:38,839
Speaker 1: the cyber security Let Them Be Kids campaign that the

10
00:00:38,880 --> 00:00:42,600
Speaker 1: new South Wales and South Australian governments held this push

11
00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,360
Speaker 1: to raise the age of kids being on teenagers being

12
00:00:46,400 --> 00:00:51,199
Speaker 1: on social media. Today is Unplugged twenty four. That's the

13
00:00:51,280 --> 00:00:55,080
Speaker 1: day Wayne is designated in memory of his son Mac,

14
00:00:55,640 --> 00:01:00,240
Speaker 1: who I understand today is the first anniversary of Mac

15
00:01:00,320 --> 00:01:03,640
Speaker 1: taking his life. Wayne Holdsworth, good morning, Oh.

16
00:01:03,560 --> 00:01:05,600
Speaker 2: Good morning, Matthew. Thanks very much for having me on

17
00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:06,080
Speaker 2: this morning.

18
00:01:06,080 --> 00:01:08,320
Speaker 1: I appreciate it and thank you for your time. How

19
00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:09,319
Speaker 1: are you holding up today?

20
00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough day and it really is. It's

21
00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:15,760
Speaker 2: twelve months today and now at seven o'clock in the

22
00:01:15,800 --> 00:01:18,160
Speaker 2: morning that I realized that he hadn't got up and

23
00:01:18,200 --> 00:01:22,160
Speaker 2: I went into his room, and it was It's not

24
00:01:22,240 --> 00:01:24,399
Speaker 2: a distant memory at all, it's just very fresh in

25
00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,240
Speaker 2: my mind. And you know, there was several things that

26
00:01:27,640 --> 00:01:30,360
Speaker 2: occurred in his life that caused him to take his life,

27
00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:32,720
Speaker 2: and he wrote about that, and one of them was

28
00:01:32,720 --> 00:01:37,160
Speaker 2: that he was sexually extorted between fifteen and sixteen years

29
00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:39,880
Speaker 2: of age. He thought he was liaising with a young

30
00:01:39,920 --> 00:01:43,880
Speaker 2: eighteen year old and shared nude photos. It turns out

31
00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:46,520
Speaker 2: that there was a forty seven year old man from Lisbole,

32
00:01:46,520 --> 00:01:49,160
Speaker 2: New South Wales that he was dealing with, and not

33
00:01:49,240 --> 00:01:52,240
Speaker 2: long after he shared the photo, the mud photo that

34
00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:56,320
Speaker 2: after she'd shared hers, he the communication ceased and he

35
00:01:56,400 --> 00:01:58,120
Speaker 2: got a phone call and it was from him and

36
00:01:58,200 --> 00:02:01,520
Speaker 2: said that he demanded five hundred dollars immediately into a

37
00:02:01,560 --> 00:02:04,560
Speaker 2: bank account, otherwise he would share those photos with all

38
00:02:04,600 --> 00:02:07,720
Speaker 2: his friends and family, and he hacked into Max's account.

39
00:02:08,200 --> 00:02:11,040
Speaker 2: So Mac paid him five hundred straight away. But they're

40
00:02:11,040 --> 00:02:13,800
Speaker 2: not long after that the blake rang again and oneed

41
00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,720
Speaker 2: another five hundred, and that's when he came in to

42
00:02:15,760 --> 00:02:18,320
Speaker 2: see me and said he'd made a mistake. And I

43
00:02:18,360 --> 00:02:20,040
Speaker 2: put my arms around him and said, no, you haven't

44
00:02:20,040 --> 00:02:24,280
Speaker 2: made you're the victim here and Anyway, as we were hugging,

45
00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:26,440
Speaker 2: and I remember him, he was crying on my shoulder,

46
00:02:26,520 --> 00:02:28,120
Speaker 2: and he's a resilient boy. He had to go to

47
00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,520
Speaker 2: footage training the next night, and he was worried that

48
00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,839
Speaker 2: those photos had to be shared. And the phone rang

49
00:02:35,160 --> 00:02:37,360
Speaker 2: and he asked me to pick it up, and I

50
00:02:37,400 --> 00:02:40,080
Speaker 2: had an animated discussion with his person and the last

51
00:02:40,280 --> 00:02:44,080
Speaker 2: words his person said to me were I hope you

52
00:02:44,240 --> 00:02:48,280
Speaker 2: die and I hope your son dies well. And that

53
00:02:48,440 --> 00:02:51,240
Speaker 2: was that. He used his own bank account details for

54
00:02:51,280 --> 00:02:53,400
Speaker 2: the five hundred dollars and the police were able to

55
00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,440
Speaker 2: trace him. He was supposed to be using an encrypted

56
00:02:57,000 --> 00:03:00,560
Speaker 2: code that the cartel that he's working for gave him,

57
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:02,919
Speaker 2: but he didn't. He cut them out, so he was found,

58
00:03:03,639 --> 00:03:07,680
Speaker 2: he was charged, and he was tried. In January of

59
00:03:07,720 --> 00:03:10,520
Speaker 2: twenty four. Mac was asked to as a victim impact statement,

60
00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,640
Speaker 2: but he couldn't do that because he passed away. And

61
00:03:14,680 --> 00:03:17,120
Speaker 2: that person got six months jail and he's out now.

62
00:03:18,200 --> 00:03:20,880
Speaker 2: And it's allege that he used his fifteen year old

63
00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 2: niece as bait to lure young boys in you know

64
00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 2: and bel gullible and so basically I could have done

65
00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:32,360
Speaker 2: three things Matthew. I could have joined him, and I

66
00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,560
Speaker 2: did have suicidal thoughts early on. Or I could have

67
00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:37,560
Speaker 2: lived a life like a lot of parents do, of

68
00:03:37,640 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 2: grief and regrets and sorrow. Or I could have just

69
00:03:42,120 --> 00:03:44,000
Speaker 2: used his death as a catalyst to do more in

70
00:03:44,320 --> 00:03:47,640
Speaker 2: suicide prevention. And that's what I decided to do. So

71
00:03:48,000 --> 00:03:50,520
Speaker 2: we set up a charity called Smack Talk. And as

72
00:03:50,520 --> 00:03:53,040
Speaker 2: you said, that m Ac in Smack Talk is in

73
00:03:53,080 --> 00:03:56,560
Speaker 2: reference to my boy Mac. And so I developed a

74
00:03:56,600 --> 00:04:00,600
Speaker 2: program in conjunction with Sport After Suicide and suicide Preventional

75
00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:04,000
Speaker 2: Australia that I go out and speak I work full

76
00:04:04,000 --> 00:04:05,960
Speaker 2: time in basketball, but I go out and speak in

77
00:04:06,360 --> 00:04:08,800
Speaker 2: after hours to as many groups as I can and

78
00:04:08,800 --> 00:04:11,280
Speaker 2: we've kicked over eight thousand hour in the last six months.

79
00:04:11,760 --> 00:04:14,440
Speaker 2: And talk to them about the signs, talk to them

80
00:04:14,440 --> 00:04:18,080
Speaker 2: about the questions. To ask you opening the questions, give

81
00:04:18,120 --> 00:04:21,440
Speaker 2: them better listening skills, listen to understand, not listening to

82
00:04:21,600 --> 00:04:24,720
Speaker 2: resolve or respond. The final thing is to know what

83
00:04:24,800 --> 00:04:26,920
Speaker 2: process to follow if someone says I don't want to

84
00:04:26,920 --> 00:04:30,000
Speaker 2: be here anymore, so I do that. I'll do that

85
00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:33,839
Speaker 2: at corporate level, or do that at booty club level.

86
00:04:33,880 --> 00:04:38,440
Speaker 2: Anywhere people want to listen. And then Matthew, I was

87
00:04:38,480 --> 00:04:41,359
Speaker 2: walking my dog a few weeks ago and we're thinking

88
00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:45,480
Speaker 2: about how to recognize the twelve months after mac pass

89
00:04:45,560 --> 00:04:48,480
Speaker 2: and thinking about running a basketball tournament or maybe a

90
00:04:49,160 --> 00:04:51,080
Speaker 2: fun run or something of that nature. But then I

91
00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:54,279
Speaker 2: thought maybe something more appropriate. We'd be around social media,

92
00:04:54,320 --> 00:04:56,880
Speaker 2: and thought that I'd ask every Australiaan that I could

93
00:04:56,880 --> 00:05:00,440
Speaker 2: get to to have stayed from social media today. Fourth

94
00:05:01,680 --> 00:05:04,320
Speaker 2: and to register on the smack talk dot com dot

95
00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,880
Speaker 2: Au website and go into Unpluded twenty four and register.

96
00:05:09,120 --> 00:05:12,440
Speaker 2: And we've had forty thousand people in twenty thousand just

97
00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:16,080
Speaker 2: yesterday register and it's growing by the second. So it's

98
00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:20,240
Speaker 2: enormous pedomon this because has been unbelievable. Your Premier is

99
00:05:20,240 --> 00:05:22,440
Speaker 2: a shining light, feel income he is. I met him

100
00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:25,360
Speaker 2: at the Social Media summit a week or two ago

101
00:05:25,880 --> 00:05:27,880
Speaker 2: with Chris Minch from New South Wales and I spent

102
00:05:27,960 --> 00:05:31,680
Speaker 2: some time with your Premier. He's unbelievable. He's a great

103
00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:36,760
Speaker 2: leader in my opinion, and he's also signed up. So

104
00:05:36,760 --> 00:05:39,880
Speaker 2: we're really grateful. Matthew, really are Walla.

105
00:05:40,279 --> 00:05:42,320
Speaker 1: You must ask yourself what else you could have done?

106
00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:46,200
Speaker 1: And it sounds like you gave Mac the best possible advice.

107
00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,080
Speaker 1: You know, he's a victim man, Yet this tragedy still occurs.

108
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,280
Speaker 1: And that's the worst part about this.

109
00:05:52,120 --> 00:05:54,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is, Matthew, it really is. And I

110
00:05:54,600 --> 00:05:57,400
Speaker 2: don't say this lightly. But if I'd known then what

111
00:05:57,480 --> 00:06:00,599
Speaker 2: I know now, he'd be with us today without a doubt, mate,

112
00:06:00,640 --> 00:06:03,680
Speaker 2: because I would have asked him more questions and just

113
00:06:03,760 --> 00:06:05,760
Speaker 2: are you okay? He'd be in the car all the

114
00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:08,640
Speaker 2: time with me, driving into footy games and training and

115
00:06:08,680 --> 00:06:11,240
Speaker 2: all that. And I always teld him here going, mate,

116
00:06:11,279 --> 00:06:14,719
Speaker 2: because he just lost his confidence and lost his you know,

117
00:06:14,760 --> 00:06:16,560
Speaker 2: he's captain of the school and he's a leader at

118
00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:18,120
Speaker 2: the footy club and he just didn't want to do

119
00:06:18,160 --> 00:06:21,440
Speaker 2: that anymore and he lost his He became withdrawn, and

120
00:06:21,720 --> 00:06:24,200
Speaker 2: I asked him are you okay here feeling, mate, and

121
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,039
Speaker 2: to be always yeah, I'm good dad, on fine, fine.

122
00:06:26,440 --> 00:06:28,560
Speaker 2: I wouldn't follow it up with another question, you know,

123
00:06:28,640 --> 00:06:30,680
Speaker 2: And now I know that that's what you've got to do,

124
00:06:31,320 --> 00:06:33,920
Speaker 2: to delve a bit deeper, to say people, And you know,

125
00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:36,599
Speaker 2: the stress and pressure that the kids are under these days,

126
00:06:36,600 --> 00:06:39,920
Speaker 2: particularly a social media is enormous and we need to

127
00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,760
Speaker 2: raise the limit and your government again leading away, he

128
00:06:42,920 --> 00:06:46,600
Speaker 2: raised the limits of sixteen because there's kids as young

129
00:06:46,640 --> 00:06:51,000
Speaker 2: as five here in Australia, boys that are addicted to

130
00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,919
Speaker 2: violent pornography simply because they think it on there, Yeah, five,

131
00:06:55,440 --> 00:06:58,159
Speaker 2: simply because they can. They just push I'm over ado

132
00:06:58,360 --> 00:07:02,000
Speaker 2: and they get in. And you can't rely on the

133
00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,920
Speaker 2: tech companies to monitor it because there's not in their

134
00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:07,880
Speaker 2: best interest commercially. So we as a country have to

135
00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,920
Speaker 2: bandy together and get all governments to raise at sixteen.

136
00:07:11,000 --> 00:07:13,440
Speaker 2: It's going to be hard, real challenge, but we've got

137
00:07:13,480 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 2: to start somewhere and if it saves one life then

138
00:07:15,520 --> 00:07:16,960
Speaker 2: it's worth it.

139
00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:19,440
Speaker 1: Is that possible though, I mean even you know, the

140
00:07:19,520 --> 00:07:23,000
Speaker 1: reason kids are on social media is because parents allow

141
00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:25,440
Speaker 1: them to go on TikTok or whatever else.

142
00:07:26,120 --> 00:07:28,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's exactly right now. If you've hit the

143
00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,320
Speaker 2: nail on the head. The education has to be directed

144
00:07:31,320 --> 00:07:33,200
Speaker 2: at the kids at primary school to tell them of

145
00:07:33,280 --> 00:07:36,800
Speaker 2: the evils out there, but also the parents have to

146
00:07:36,880 --> 00:07:40,120
Speaker 2: understand them when not present. Most parents come afterwards and

147
00:07:40,160 --> 00:07:42,400
Speaker 2: say I didn't know that. I didn't know that. Yeah,

148
00:07:42,720 --> 00:07:46,840
Speaker 2: is predators on there that are just wanting to terrorize

149
00:07:46,840 --> 00:07:49,960
Speaker 2: our kids. So parents don't let them go on those sides.

150
00:07:50,000 --> 00:07:52,320
Speaker 2: They think they're just having fun on TikTok and what

151
00:07:52,440 --> 00:07:54,920
Speaker 2: they what they see on TikTok nowadays, I don't want

152
00:07:54,960 --> 00:07:57,360
Speaker 2: to talk about it on the air, but it is awful.

153
00:07:57,880 --> 00:08:01,480
Speaker 2: It's awful behavior. And you know, kids addicted to pornography,

154
00:08:01,560 --> 00:08:03,600
Speaker 2: violent pornography at five, You know what are they going

155
00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:06,760
Speaker 2: to grow up thinking such a We'll worry. So parents

156
00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:09,160
Speaker 2: have to be educated. Kids have to be educated. The

157
00:08:09,200 --> 00:08:13,160
Speaker 2: government are doing a really good job and implementing this legislation,

158
00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:15,440
Speaker 2: and we've got to get the tech giants on board,

159
00:08:15,440 --> 00:08:16,760
Speaker 2: which I haven't got much hope for.

160
00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,840
Speaker 1: No, that's the tragedy of this. There doesn't seem to

161
00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:23,440
Speaker 1: be much open in that regard of them taking responsibility

162
00:08:23,440 --> 00:08:25,200
Speaker 1: for what's on their sites for goodness sake.

163
00:08:25,960 --> 00:08:30,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, you're right, Matthew, it's about I reckon. Seven weeks ago,

164
00:08:30,560 --> 00:08:35,520
Speaker 2: the vice president of Meta An Tigerany Davis, said that

165
00:08:35,640 --> 00:08:39,240
Speaker 2: she didn't believe that social media damaged children, and then

166
00:08:39,400 --> 00:08:43,640
Speaker 2: only two weeks after that, they suspended sixty two thousand

167
00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:47,240
Speaker 2: Nigerian Facebook accounts because they felt that they were dangerous.

168
00:08:47,880 --> 00:08:52,240
Speaker 2: So they know what's going on. And they've got the

169
00:08:52,320 --> 00:08:55,640
Speaker 2: technology to ensure that the kids of that age do

170
00:08:55,720 --> 00:08:58,240
Speaker 2: not get on, but they're not implementing it because they

171
00:08:58,240 --> 00:09:01,200
Speaker 2: want customers and they want them to be addicted to

172
00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:02,320
Speaker 2: it for their life.

173
00:09:03,600 --> 00:09:06,440
Speaker 1: I've got a text from Jim who says, Matt, no

174
00:09:06,640 --> 00:09:09,680
Speaker 1: nude photos on social media? Then no problem. Why isn't

175
00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,120
Speaker 1: this illegal? Well, I don't know where you even start

176
00:09:12,160 --> 00:09:15,120
Speaker 1: with that. I mean, you're right, Jim, but how do

177
00:09:15,120 --> 00:09:15,920
Speaker 1: you enforce that?

178
00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's right, exactly right. And you know when I

179
00:09:19,600 --> 00:09:22,679
Speaker 2: go out to schools and talk about that, I asked them,

180
00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,559
Speaker 2: us teachers to turn around. They're back to the kids

181
00:09:25,559 --> 00:09:27,880
Speaker 2: and kids put up your hand. If you've sent a

182
00:09:27,960 --> 00:09:31,079
Speaker 2: nude photo and you know, year nine, ten eleven, at

183
00:09:31,160 --> 00:09:33,960
Speaker 2: least thirty percent admit to it. There's probably another thirty

184
00:09:34,000 --> 00:09:36,800
Speaker 2: that day. So they've all done it and do it.

185
00:09:36,880 --> 00:09:39,880
Speaker 2: But now they know that if you do it, it's distrains.

186
00:09:39,920 --> 00:09:42,760
Speaker 2: It's just like you know, getting in a car when

187
00:09:42,800 --> 00:09:45,679
Speaker 2: you're fifteen or fourteen in South Australia, you're not allowed

188
00:09:45,679 --> 00:09:48,280
Speaker 2: to do it. So we can put some legislation around it.

189
00:09:48,559 --> 00:09:49,760
Speaker 2: It really helps.

190
00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, And the thing with the new photo. Doesn't

191
00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:56,400
Speaker 1: matter if you're fourteen or fifty four. You don't really

192
00:09:56,440 --> 00:09:57,960
Speaker 1: know if you haven't met the person, you don't know

193
00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:01,199
Speaker 1: who you're sending it to. You don't know where it's

194
00:10:01,200 --> 00:10:04,560
Speaker 1: going to turn up in a month, a year, ten

195
00:10:04,640 --> 00:10:05,520
Speaker 1: years from now.

196
00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Correct, And this is the drama of it. Yeah,

197
00:10:09,520 --> 00:10:11,520
Speaker 2: so you just don't send them. It's a simple thing,

198
00:10:11,600 --> 00:10:14,559
Speaker 2: you know, just mitigate the risk, Matthew, and just don't

199
00:10:14,600 --> 00:10:16,520
Speaker 2: send them. And that's what I'm teaching all the kids

200
00:10:16,559 --> 00:10:18,960
Speaker 2: to do. And that's where it's got to start. Parents.

201
00:10:18,960 --> 00:10:22,319
Speaker 2: You know, the Unplugged twenty four is around the parents

202
00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:25,440
Speaker 2: showing by example that they're going to get off social media.

203
00:10:25,760 --> 00:10:28,080
Speaker 2: Then the kids say, oh, okay, if mom and dad

204
00:10:28,080 --> 00:10:30,200
Speaker 2: are doing it, it must be okay. Because I go

205
00:10:30,280 --> 00:10:33,040
Speaker 2: to restaurants and cafes and see families there and they're

206
00:10:33,040 --> 00:10:35,040
Speaker 2: all on their phones. You know, they may all be

207
00:10:35,080 --> 00:10:39,000
Speaker 2: in the backyard at home or somewhere else. So you know,

208
00:10:39,120 --> 00:10:40,800
Speaker 2: parents need to be educated as well.

209
00:10:40,960 --> 00:10:44,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, good luck with today, Wayne. I'm so pleased I've

210
00:10:44,240 --> 00:10:46,839
Speaker 1: had the chance to chat to you and for everybody listening.

211
00:10:46,920 --> 00:10:49,320
Speaker 1: So this will be the day forever? Why it? Every

212
00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:51,640
Speaker 1: year you'll be doing this presumably Unplugged twenty four.

213
00:10:51,760 --> 00:10:54,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, correct, for every year. We're going to do it.

214
00:10:54,040 --> 00:10:57,120
Speaker 2: Now it's the first one, so you know it's still time.

215
00:10:57,160 --> 00:11:01,560
Speaker 2: You can still jump on which is www dot smack talk, s,

216
00:11:01,679 --> 00:11:04,199
Speaker 2: mac k talk dot combat are you and you can

217
00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:06,920
Speaker 2: register there. It takes something about two minutes and I'd

218
00:11:06,920 --> 00:11:07,680
Speaker 2: be really grateful.

219
00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:11,240
Speaker 1: Yeah, indeed, Wayne, really appreciate your time today. I don't

220
00:11:11,280 --> 00:11:14,000
Speaker 1: know how you've gone on. I really don't, but full

221
00:11:14,080 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 1: marks to you.

222
00:11:15,240 --> 00:11:16,600
Speaker 2: Good on you mate, Thanks very much.

223
00:11:16,679 --> 00:11:20,920
Speaker 1: Make Wayne Holds founder of smack Talk and unplug twenty

224
00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:26,960
Speaker 1: four campaign today, So get on and just support it.

225
00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:29,800
Speaker 1: What a good thing. And yes, kids shouldn't be on

226
00:11:29,960 --> 00:11:34,920
Speaker 1: social media till at least sixteen at least, and they

227
00:11:35,000 --> 00:11:37,480
Speaker 1: need to know the risks. So good on Wayne, how's

228
00:11:37,520 --> 00:11:38,760
Speaker 1: he gone on? Just unreal