1 00:00:02,360 --> 00:00:04,760 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to the show. This is better than Yesterday. 2 00:00:04,960 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Useful tools and useful conversations to help make your day 3 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: to day better than yesterday every week since twenty and thirteen. 4 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: I'm grateful you made it. Thanks for being a part 5 00:00:13,720 --> 00:00:17,040 Speaker 2: of the show. My name's Osha Ginsburg, and I'm thrilled 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:18,680 Speaker 2: you here. It's summertime. I hope what you be doing 7 00:00:18,840 --> 00:00:19,600 Speaker 2: is wonderful. 8 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:22,079 Speaker 1: Me and the team are taking a well earned break, 9 00:00:22,320 --> 00:00:24,120 Speaker 1: But I don't want to leave you bereft. 10 00:00:24,400 --> 00:00:26,080 Speaker 2: I don't want to leave you with nothing to go 11 00:00:26,160 --> 00:00:28,440 Speaker 2: because we have I have my podcast habits. 12 00:00:28,480 --> 00:00:28,920 Speaker 3: You do too. 13 00:00:29,000 --> 00:00:30,600 Speaker 2: You want someone to listen to when you're doing that 14 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:31,600 Speaker 2: thing that you listen to. 15 00:00:32,120 --> 00:00:33,839 Speaker 1: If you are doing something, take a photo of it, 16 00:00:33,880 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: send it to me, Send us your email at gmail 17 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:36,960 Speaker 1: dot com. I love getting a podsey. What are you 18 00:00:37,000 --> 00:00:39,160 Speaker 1: doing right now? What are you actually doing right now? 19 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 2: I love it. I get fighters of. 20 00:00:41,159 --> 00:00:46,680 Speaker 1: Laundry, flat pack, furniture assembly, dog feeding, all kinds of things, boeing, lawns, gardening. 21 00:00:47,040 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 2: Love it. 22 00:00:47,880 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: Send me an email, send us email at gmail dot com. 23 00:00:50,800 --> 00:00:52,479 Speaker 1: So we're going back over the summer. We're going back 24 00:00:52,520 --> 00:00:54,680 Speaker 1: through the twelve years twelve plus years of the most 25 00:00:54,680 --> 00:00:57,880 Speaker 1: incredible conversations we've had, and today we're diving into the 26 00:00:57,880 --> 00:01:01,440 Speaker 1: world of music, of creativity and personal growth with one 27 00:01:01,440 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: of Australia's most unique and enduring musicians, Ben Lee. Ben 28 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:07,959 Speaker 1: has been in the public eye since he was fourteen 29 00:01:08,040 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 1: years old when he was discovered by a small band 30 00:01:10,600 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 1: you may have heard of, Coled the Beastie Boys. Now 31 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:17,320 Speaker 1: Ben's career has spanned decades. He's produced so many memorable 32 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:21,520 Speaker 1: songs and collaborations. He's he's such a provocateur. I just 33 00:01:21,600 --> 00:01:23,640 Speaker 1: adore the way he approaches who he is in the 34 00:01:23,640 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 1: world and the world itself. And today we're just going 35 00:01:26,200 --> 00:01:28,160 Speaker 1: to take a few chunks out of a longer conversation, 36 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:30,440 Speaker 1: which you can find if you scrollback in the podcast feed. 37 00:01:30,680 --> 00:01:33,560 Speaker 1: We're going to listen to Ben reflect on creativity, his 38 00:01:33,640 --> 00:01:36,559 Speaker 1: thoughts on how he's changed perspectives over his career and 39 00:01:36,600 --> 00:01:39,120 Speaker 1: how he changes perspectives when he needs to, and the 40 00:01:39,240 --> 00:01:44,119 Speaker 1: lessons that he's learned about connection and authenticity. So creativity 41 00:01:44,160 --> 00:01:46,319 Speaker 1: is where it starts, I guess for a musician. 42 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:47,800 Speaker 2: Is at the heart of what you do. It's the 43 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:48,560 Speaker 2: heart of what August do. 44 00:01:48,720 --> 00:01:51,760 Speaker 1: Early but Ben's ability to craft songs that revenant resonate 45 00:01:51,800 --> 00:01:53,960 Speaker 1: with audiences, it's made him a household. 46 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:55,000 Speaker 2: Name here in Australia. 47 00:01:55,120 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: So in this little bit, Ben kind of reflected on 48 00:01:59,160 --> 00:02:02,440 Speaker 1: the balance between staying true to his artistic vision and 49 00:02:02,600 --> 00:02:06,320 Speaker 1: connecting with his listeners, the people that you know, he 50 00:02:06,400 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: hopes will buy the tickets to see his shows and 51 00:02:08,440 --> 00:02:10,079 Speaker 1: his merchant his t shirts and this sort of thing. 52 00:02:11,000 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: So I wanted to know how does he go about 53 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:15,519 Speaker 1: creating music that connects with people. 54 00:02:18,840 --> 00:02:22,040 Speaker 3: For me, part of what makes music good is that 55 00:02:22,080 --> 00:02:25,480 Speaker 3: it communicates on like a first time level. Like I 56 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:28,600 Speaker 3: would love if I did a gig. I would hope 57 00:02:28,639 --> 00:02:31,400 Speaker 3: if you came with three generations, if you came with 58 00:02:31,440 --> 00:02:33,960 Speaker 3: your parents or your partner's parents and with your kid, 59 00:02:34,080 --> 00:02:36,799 Speaker 3: and you know, you'd or there'd be something for all 60 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:39,840 Speaker 3: of you. It's not just you have to know all 61 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 3: the songs and the lyrics and you know what I mean. 62 00:02:42,440 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 3: You know, that's a certain type of experience where people 63 00:02:44,440 --> 00:02:47,560 Speaker 3: go you to sort of regurgitate their listening experience at home. 64 00:02:48,200 --> 00:02:52,480 Speaker 3: So that being said, like I believe that communication is 65 00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,600 Speaker 3: really important to me, it is and I want it 66 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 3: to work. I had this interesting. I worked on this 67 00:02:59,080 --> 00:03:02,480 Speaker 3: project once. It was something for Playtone, you know, which 68 00:03:02,520 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 3: is Tom Hanks's production company. It was like a little 69 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,320 Speaker 3: web series thing. I was doing the music for it. 70 00:03:07,680 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 3: The guy who was sort of the active EP on 71 00:03:09,960 --> 00:03:12,680 Speaker 3: it was this guy Gary Getzman. But I said to him, 72 00:03:12,720 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 3: I asked him a question about their company, and I said, 73 00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:21,440 Speaker 3: you make such broad work. You know, they service a 74 00:03:21,520 --> 00:03:25,080 Speaker 3: kind of mainstream sensibility about consumption of movies and TV. 75 00:03:25,600 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 3: And I was like, how do you develop things if 76 00:03:29,240 --> 00:03:32,120 Speaker 3: you're thinking it has to be like so broad every time? 77 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,680 Speaker 3: He said, we don't think like that. We just trust 78 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:41,000 Speaker 3: that our sensibility is innately sort of populist. If we 79 00:03:41,200 --> 00:03:43,040 Speaker 3: like things, we know there's going to be other people 80 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 3: that like them. And that's the side of it where 81 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: there's trust for me that I now know that, like, 82 00:03:49,960 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 3: it's not going to be as big every time. Not 83 00:03:52,440 --> 00:03:54,840 Speaker 3: every song is going to be a catch my Disease 84 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:56,680 Speaker 3: or a cigarettes will Kill You or even a born 85 00:03:56,720 --> 00:04:00,120 Speaker 3: for this bullshit that are like single type songs, you know, 86 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:02,840 Speaker 3: but there is going to be someone. There is going 87 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 3: to be a group of people, and it's worth sometimes 88 00:04:06,640 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 3: you need to connect to smaller groups and that's part 89 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:13,120 Speaker 3: of how you also share your artistic vision too, So 90 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:15,200 Speaker 3: I guess that's a long way of saying that, Like 91 00:04:15,960 --> 00:04:19,160 Speaker 3: I think, there is both consideration of how I can 92 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 3: communicate and the desire to, but also the trust that 93 00:04:23,360 --> 00:04:26,440 Speaker 3: if it's coming out of me, maybe there's something of 94 00:04:26,480 --> 00:04:27,240 Speaker 3: interest there. 95 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:31,240 Speaker 2: I love his perspective on creativity. 96 00:04:31,279 --> 00:04:34,400 Speaker 1: It's such a reminder that art doesn't always have to 97 00:04:34,440 --> 00:04:39,360 Speaker 1: appeal to the masses to be meaningful. You just got 98 00:04:39,360 --> 00:04:41,080 Speaker 1: to You just got to make it because you can't 99 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,799 Speaker 1: not make it. Ben's got this great ability to trust 100 00:04:43,800 --> 00:04:46,880 Speaker 1: his instincts and when he does, though, he creates music 101 00:04:47,120 --> 00:04:50,200 Speaker 1: that resonates. It might be with smaller passionate audiences, but 102 00:04:50,320 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: it is a testament to that he is authentic as 103 00:04:53,000 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: an artist. He's not chasing the down lines or chasing 104 00:04:55,240 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: the things. It's great, but if you've been in the 105 00:04:58,320 --> 00:04:59,920 Speaker 1: public eye it's fourteen, you've had to change on the 106 00:05:00,320 --> 00:05:03,960 Speaker 1: right that discussed that is going to need you to change. 107 00:05:03,600 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 2: The way you operate. 108 00:05:04,839 --> 00:05:06,920 Speaker 1: You're going to grow, You're going to become a man, 109 00:05:07,000 --> 00:05:11,080 Speaker 1: in Ben's case, a husband, a father, and growth through 110 00:05:11,080 --> 00:05:11,520 Speaker 1: our lives. 111 00:05:11,600 --> 00:05:12,800 Speaker 2: Always it challenges us. 112 00:05:12,920 --> 00:05:15,799 Speaker 1: It challenges us there's growing pains for a reason, because 113 00:05:15,800 --> 00:05:18,159 Speaker 1: we get challenged, our beliefs get challenged. 114 00:05:17,839 --> 00:05:19,479 Speaker 2: We have to admit that we've made mistakes. 115 00:05:20,320 --> 00:05:22,320 Speaker 1: In this little bit, Ben talks about the importance of 116 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:25,440 Speaker 1: being open to that change and how that being open 117 00:05:25,480 --> 00:05:27,560 Speaker 1: to change has shaped his life and his career. 118 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,279 Speaker 3: I mean the first thing is the idea or the 119 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 3: implication that to change is bad or wrong or dangerous, 120 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,839 Speaker 3: and that you might get like kicked out of the 121 00:05:40,920 --> 00:05:43,479 Speaker 3: tribe or I don't know what. Like, we have a 122 00:05:43,480 --> 00:05:47,640 Speaker 3: lot of prejudices against evolution in a way coming from 123 00:05:47,880 --> 00:05:52,120 Speaker 3: music though, Like there's David Bowie, you know what I mean. 124 00:05:52,240 --> 00:05:55,840 Speaker 3: Like in art there's salvad Or Dali who said I 125 00:05:55,960 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 3: reserve the right to contradict myself. I mean, I always 126 00:05:59,320 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 3: like that type of artists, Like I wasn't that. There's 127 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 3: a lot of artists and I've had fascinating conversations with 128 00:06:06,120 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 3: artists that I've diametrically opposed philosophies about how to do 129 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,960 Speaker 3: careers too where they look at it, especially now because 130 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:17,440 Speaker 3: the metrics are so precise that you can see what 131 00:06:17,480 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 3: your audience wants from you, and you can build a 132 00:06:20,160 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 3: business delivering what your audience wants, but I am from 133 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,120 Speaker 3: another I don't know if it's another era or just 134 00:06:28,160 --> 00:06:30,520 Speaker 3: another way of looking at it, where I believe the 135 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,760 Speaker 3: artist leads the audience, the audience doesn't lead the artist. 136 00:06:34,640 --> 00:06:36,320 Speaker 3: I went through a period of my life where like 137 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:40,960 Speaker 3: my passwords to everything it's no longer, so I'm not 138 00:06:41,120 --> 00:06:44,480 Speaker 3: risking id theft, But my password to everything was changes 139 00:06:44,760 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 3: because I actually believed that change was the thing I 140 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:51,960 Speaker 3: was chasing. I wasn't chasing something stable, I was chasing 141 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:56,560 Speaker 3: something dynamic. So the kind of experience and why I 142 00:06:56,640 --> 00:07:00,520 Speaker 3: resonated with sort of like spiritual parables and all those 143 00:07:00,640 --> 00:07:04,160 Speaker 3: ideas was because they're essentially all about change. I mean 144 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,440 Speaker 3: another way of saying change is that like death is coming, 145 00:07:08,680 --> 00:07:11,520 Speaker 3: Like no matter how stable you think you are, death 146 00:07:11,720 --> 00:07:14,080 Speaker 3: is a common I mean. I remember sitting with like 147 00:07:14,200 --> 00:07:17,680 Speaker 3: artists I love like and I respect like Connor Obis. 148 00:07:17,680 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 3: We were drinking one night and I was talking about change, 149 00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:22,040 Speaker 3: how I just want to change, and he was like, 150 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 3: who wants to change? Like because he liked his life 151 00:07:25,360 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 3: and he liked them, And you know that's valid, but 152 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,600 Speaker 3: it's not how I see things. I see things in 153 00:07:31,400 --> 00:07:34,240 Speaker 3: letting go, it's like you know, Bob Dylan said, like 154 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:37,280 Speaker 3: he not busy being born, is busy dying. Like that's 155 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 3: my philosophy that like, if you think you know, you're 156 00:07:41,040 --> 00:07:44,520 Speaker 3: gonna get stuck in something, I'd much rather not know. 157 00:07:45,280 --> 00:07:47,440 Speaker 3: And that's the great irony that I don't think. I 158 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:50,800 Speaker 3: think people are starting to realize about me because I 159 00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:53,480 Speaker 3: can do a whole like Bravado kind of thing and 160 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 3: all that, but it's with the deepest sense of humility 161 00:07:58,400 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 3: of actually meeting I know nothing about myself or what's 162 00:08:02,480 --> 00:08:05,920 Speaker 3: going on with anything, and in that you can find 163 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:08,520 Speaker 3: room to play and you can be like, yeah, I'm 164 00:08:08,520 --> 00:08:11,880 Speaker 3: Australia's greatest songwriter, or you know, come at me, this 165 00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 3: is an epic hit. You got to enjoy it because 166 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:18,080 Speaker 3: you know it's nonsense because you don't know anything. So 167 00:08:18,280 --> 00:08:21,840 Speaker 3: in that it's like there's freedom to if you find 168 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 3: a certain role in which you can express that when 169 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: you actually really don't know anything, you're suddenly very free. 170 00:08:28,600 --> 00:08:30,480 Speaker 3: And I think a lot of actors find that with 171 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,960 Speaker 3: like really crazy roles and villains and stuff, that there's 172 00:08:33,960 --> 00:08:38,839 Speaker 3: this liberation that comes with accepting that it's a role. 173 00:08:39,000 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 3: I guess, so I don't really have any advice. I 174 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:46,800 Speaker 3: just build my life on the presumption that next week 175 00:08:46,880 --> 00:08:49,439 Speaker 3: I should think differently than this week. 176 00:08:52,440 --> 00:08:54,920 Speaker 1: Listening to the way that Bentley is, how open he 177 00:08:55,000 --> 00:08:58,080 Speaker 1: is to change, and the belief that he has that 178 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: artists should lead their audiences. 179 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 2: It's such a refreshing perspective because he's I think he's right. 180 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: I don't want to be involved in audience capture. If 181 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:08,600 Speaker 1: you know what that is, where you know it happens, 182 00:09:08,679 --> 00:09:10,400 Speaker 1: you know, with a podcast or a YouTube channel or 183 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: an Instagram or whatever. The authenticity of the creator shifts 184 00:09:13,720 --> 00:09:17,320 Speaker 1: to chase the downloads I have. Early on in this podcast, 185 00:09:17,320 --> 00:09:19,400 Speaker 1: when I was chasing downloads, it changed how many guests 186 00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: and what kind of guests I would get on board, and. 187 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 2: I didn't like it. 188 00:09:22,400 --> 00:09:23,839 Speaker 1: And I don't want to be a part of audience capture. 189 00:09:23,880 --> 00:09:26,040 Speaker 1: I don't want to have my things paraded back to me. 190 00:09:26,040 --> 00:09:28,319 Speaker 1: I want to be challenged. I want to be trust 191 00:09:28,400 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: this person that they've got a perspective and an idea 192 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:32,920 Speaker 1: about looking at the world that I want to get around. 193 00:09:33,120 --> 00:09:34,839 Speaker 1: And I'm comfortable to be challenged by it. And I'm 194 00:09:34,840 --> 00:09:36,600 Speaker 1: going to go with you there. And I really like that, 195 00:09:36,760 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: I really really like that. I have to take a break. 196 00:09:39,360 --> 00:09:41,200 Speaker 1: But before we do, I want to let you know 197 00:09:41,200 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: that Story Club, the live storytelling show that I produce 198 00:09:43,679 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: every month here in Sydney. The YouTube channel is up 199 00:09:46,160 --> 00:09:48,439 Speaker 1: and live, so if you're looking for something completely different 200 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: to watch about anywhere between ten and fifteen minutes long, 201 00:09:51,760 --> 00:09:54,360 Speaker 1: but their true story is told by some of Australia's greatest, 202 00:09:54,800 --> 00:09:56,359 Speaker 1: most extraordinary storytellers. 203 00:09:56,880 --> 00:09:59,280 Speaker 2: You recognize the names. Don't worry, you know. 204 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:02,880 Speaker 1: I'm leveraging my phone contact list, that's for sure. 205 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:04,240 Speaker 2: But there's true stories. 206 00:10:04,320 --> 00:10:06,880 Speaker 1: They're not safe for kids, but they're amazing. The new 207 00:10:07,040 --> 00:10:09,560 Speaker 1: live show is starting out up in February, but the 208 00:10:09,840 --> 00:10:11,400 Speaker 1: link for the YouTube channel is right there in the 209 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: show notes, which is where you can also buy my 210 00:10:12,960 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: new book it's called So What Now What? And you 211 00:10:15,679 --> 00:10:18,199 Speaker 1: can also get the memoir back after the break, which 212 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:21,240 Speaker 1: is exactly where we're going to be with Ben when 213 00:10:21,240 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 1: we're talking about creating art from an authentic place in 214 00:10:24,040 --> 00:10:24,560 Speaker 1: just a moment. 215 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:32,160 Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the show. 216 00:10:32,280 --> 00:10:35,480 Speaker 1: Ben Lee is a brilliant musician and he's a lovely 217 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:35,959 Speaker 1: human being. 218 00:10:36,000 --> 00:10:38,160 Speaker 2: If you ever get the chance to meet him, he. 219 00:10:38,360 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 1: Is if nothing else has always been so authentic. I 220 00:10:41,920 --> 00:10:45,160 Speaker 1: don't know what he got, what he was infused with 221 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,160 Speaker 1: when he was a teenager, when he was under. 222 00:10:46,960 --> 00:10:48,040 Speaker 2: All that immense pressure. 223 00:10:48,040 --> 00:10:50,480 Speaker 1: I mean, he's dating clear Danes, for God's sake, He's 224 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:52,920 Speaker 1: hanging out with the beastie boys made How wrong could 225 00:10:52,920 --> 00:10:56,280 Speaker 1: it have gone? But it didn't, And he's just maintained 226 00:10:56,280 --> 00:10:59,440 Speaker 1: this authenticity and I just love it, and it's so 227 00:10:59,520 --> 00:11:00,280 Speaker 1: central to his. 228 00:11:01,280 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: Work, the work that he does. 229 00:11:02,880 --> 00:11:05,040 Speaker 1: So in this moment that I just wanted to play 230 00:11:05,040 --> 00:11:08,719 Speaker 1: with you, Ben talked about how creating his art from 231 00:11:08,720 --> 00:11:12,600 Speaker 1: a place of honesty and a place of vulnerability is 232 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,720 Speaker 1: actually something that has incredibly It just shaped his complete career. 233 00:11:16,840 --> 00:11:22,680 Speaker 3: I'm careful about taking people's opinions on one of the 234 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 3: things I learned from reading the Brian Eno memoir. He 235 00:11:25,640 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: did a book called Like a Year with Swollen Appendices. 236 00:11:28,880 --> 00:11:32,000 Speaker 3: That's really cool. He talks about he didn't like to 237 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,439 Speaker 3: play people in music to hear their opinions. He played 238 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 3: it for them to find out how he felt in 239 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:42,480 Speaker 3: the room playing it for them. He called it listening 240 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,160 Speaker 3: through their ears. And I do that a lot, like 241 00:11:46,480 --> 00:11:48,640 Speaker 3: I'll even do with ideas like last night, I have 242 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: this work thing I'm considering doing. And it's a little 243 00:11:51,760 --> 00:11:54,120 Speaker 3: bit it's one of those like it's a flyer. It's 244 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,480 Speaker 3: like a bit of a like wild proposition. And I 245 00:11:57,520 --> 00:11:59,600 Speaker 3: brought it up at dinner last night with my wife 246 00:11:59,679 --> 00:12:03,200 Speaker 3: and another couple who I really respect everyone because I 247 00:12:03,240 --> 00:12:05,120 Speaker 3: wanted to hear how it felt coming out of my 248 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,520 Speaker 3: mouth saying I'm thinking I'm going to do this. I 249 00:12:07,559 --> 00:12:09,560 Speaker 3: wanted to see did it feel good? It wasn't as 250 00:12:09,679 --> 00:12:13,160 Speaker 3: much what they said it was. Did I feel embarrassed? 251 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:16,280 Speaker 3: Did I feel proud? Did I feel inspired? 252 00:12:16,720 --> 00:12:16,880 Speaker 1: Like? 253 00:12:17,360 --> 00:12:19,800 Speaker 3: You know, it's like there's ways that we can become 254 00:12:19,880 --> 00:12:22,800 Speaker 3: mirrors for each other without it being let me tell 255 00:12:22,840 --> 00:12:24,520 Speaker 3: you what you're doing right and wrong? You know what 256 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:25,640 Speaker 3: I mean that is? 257 00:12:26,200 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 1: It's a fact mate, we could Brianino is. If people 258 00:12:29,880 --> 00:12:32,960 Speaker 1: don't know who Brianino is, he's one of the most 259 00:12:32,960 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: influential sonic people that exists. 260 00:12:36,160 --> 00:12:39,720 Speaker 3: But you know what's interesting about Brainino is also just 261 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,960 Speaker 3: the capacity that art and pop culture can have for 262 00:12:45,160 --> 00:12:48,679 Speaker 3: serious thought. And I think Brianino or David Bowie are 263 00:12:48,720 --> 00:12:51,640 Speaker 3: like I always aspired to be in the tradition of 264 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:57,640 Speaker 3: like pop work that contains intelligence and it doesn't mean 265 00:12:57,640 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 3: it's all good or all bad or but like it's 266 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:04,480 Speaker 3: actually there's thoughts going on. There's thinking people doing thinking things, 267 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:07,160 Speaker 3: and I think we need that in pop culture. 268 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 2: And it's wonderful. 269 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,360 Speaker 1: It sounds like your families come home and that's a 270 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:12,920 Speaker 1: lovely Oh, it's always a lovely moment. 271 00:13:12,960 --> 00:13:14,160 Speaker 2: I love it when everyone comes home. 272 00:13:15,160 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 1: What did you get out of I'm assuming you were 273 00:13:17,120 --> 00:13:19,440 Speaker 1: you were a step parent before you were a parent. Yes, 274 00:13:19,920 --> 00:13:22,720 Speaker 1: what did you get out of the stepparent experience? 275 00:13:23,040 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: I mean, honestly, I got a practice run. Oh that 276 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:32,560 Speaker 3: was kind of big because also my stepdaughter's dad was 277 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,000 Speaker 3: in the picture still, so I wasn't expected to become 278 00:13:36,040 --> 00:13:40,840 Speaker 3: the replacement dad. I got to kind of have the experience, 279 00:13:40,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 3: but also the stakes were not as high. I feel like, 280 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:49,280 Speaker 3: now you know, my stepdaughter now is turning twenty in 281 00:13:49,320 --> 00:13:50,080 Speaker 3: a couple of weeks. 282 00:13:50,320 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 2: Awesome. 283 00:13:50,920 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 3: We me and I only got together when she was 284 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:54,200 Speaker 3: turning five. 285 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:55,040 Speaker 2: Wow. 286 00:13:55,080 --> 00:14:00,920 Speaker 3: And I've gotten a friend and a like Kate's mind. 287 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,400 Speaker 3: I really admire it and like it and often like 288 00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:07,240 Speaker 3: talk through things. You know, a trusted it's what comes 289 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 3: with intimacy. It's like a trusted set of ears and 290 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,400 Speaker 3: sensibility and you know, hopefully I provide the same thing back, 291 00:14:14,520 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 3: but it's different as kids grow up. Hopefully if there's 292 00:14:16,960 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: not too much drama, which there always is going to be, 293 00:14:20,040 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 3: but hopefully you do have you feel like a community 294 00:14:23,800 --> 00:14:26,320 Speaker 3: with them, You feel like they're your tribe, and you 295 00:14:26,360 --> 00:14:28,040 Speaker 3: can lean on each other when you need to. 296 00:14:30,280 --> 00:14:31,720 Speaker 2: I really needed to hear that today. 297 00:14:32,120 --> 00:14:36,280 Speaker 1: I love that Ben talked about authenticity and connection and 298 00:14:36,320 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: how important it is to stay true to yourself, both 299 00:14:38,800 --> 00:14:41,560 Speaker 1: in everything you're creating and also in the relationships that 300 00:14:41,600 --> 00:14:43,600 Speaker 1: you have. Not all of us are going to write 301 00:14:43,640 --> 00:14:45,840 Speaker 1: you know, cigarettes will kill you or catch my disease, right, 302 00:14:45,920 --> 00:14:48,840 Speaker 1: But we know when we're not being authentic because it 303 00:14:48,880 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 1: feels iggy, right. 304 00:14:50,200 --> 00:14:51,160 Speaker 2: Yeah. 305 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:54,080 Speaker 1: I love that he's able to create work from such 306 00:14:54,080 --> 00:14:54,960 Speaker 1: a place of honesty. 307 00:14:55,080 --> 00:14:58,720 Speaker 2: That's why he's who he is and who I am. 308 00:14:58,880 --> 00:14:59,760 Speaker 2: It's a masterclass. 309 00:15:00,000 --> 00:15:02,960 Speaker 1: The whole conversation is a masterclass in creativity and growth 310 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,360 Speaker 1: and authenticity. It's brilliant. It's the full episode. It's back 311 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:10,640 Speaker 1: in the show notes, back in the podcast. We just 312 00:15:10,680 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 1: croll back of it until you see Ben Lee and 313 00:15:13,080 --> 00:15:14,800 Speaker 1: you'll find it there. Thanks so much for listening to 314 00:15:14,840 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: the show. I hope you're safe and wonderful and delightful 315 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:20,000 Speaker 1: and surrounded by wonderful people wherever you are. 316 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:22,120 Speaker 2: I'll see in a couple of days.