1 00:00:05,921 --> 00:00:07,281 Speaker 1: Appodcha Production. 2 00:00:10,201 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 2: Welcome back to Our Little Lady, a podcast that explores 3 00:00:13,241 --> 00:00:15,321 Speaker 2: the death of a young fifteen year old girl in 4 00:00:15,361 --> 00:00:19,441 Speaker 2: the tiny seaside town of Saint Helen's in Tasmania. Her 5 00:00:19,521 --> 00:00:28,281 Speaker 2: name was Eden Westbrook. If you've just started this podcast, 6 00:00:28,601 --> 00:00:31,401 Speaker 2: it's worth heading back to the start to catch up. 7 00:00:34,760 --> 00:00:37,481 Speaker 2: We've had lots of questions and emails about how you 8 00:00:37,561 --> 00:00:40,160 Speaker 2: can help Eden and her family. The best way you 9 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 2: can help is to take thirty seconds of your time 10 00:00:42,801 --> 00:00:45,481 Speaker 2: right now and hit the follow button on the podcast 11 00:00:45,480 --> 00:00:47,841 Speaker 2: app you're listening to. The Other thing that might help 12 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:50,921 Speaker 2: is to share this story and help create a movement, 13 00:00:52,361 --> 00:00:54,521 Speaker 2: and you can do that by writing and reviewing the 14 00:00:54,561 --> 00:00:59,001 Speaker 2: podcast on the app you're listening to. In this episode, 15 00:00:59,041 --> 00:01:01,921 Speaker 2: we're going to have a conversation with Amber Wilson. She's 16 00:01:01,961 --> 00:01:04,881 Speaker 2: the journalist from the Hobart Mercury who has written and 17 00:01:05,121 --> 00:01:09,560 Speaker 2: chased down this story forever four years. She's been leading 18 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:11,801 Speaker 2: this case and really trying to drive an outcome in 19 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,280 Speaker 2: Tasmania for Eden Westbrook. And Jason and Amanda. 20 00:01:15,521 --> 00:01:18,601 Speaker 1: Thank you for your kind words there, Jay, although I 21 00:01:18,640 --> 00:01:20,560 Speaker 1: think that the credit really has to go back to 22 00:01:20,640 --> 00:01:25,321 Speaker 1: Jason and Amanda They've been on this case passionately, fighting 23 00:01:25,481 --> 00:01:28,041 Speaker 1: since day one. I guess it was only a matter 24 00:01:28,041 --> 00:01:31,241 Speaker 1: of time until a journalist picked it up, so they 25 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:33,881 Speaker 1: actually came to me. I guess when I first spoke 26 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,560 Speaker 1: to Jason, I was just really touched it how hard 27 00:01:38,681 --> 00:01:42,880 Speaker 1: and passionately he and Amanda were fighting for their daughter. 28 00:01:43,401 --> 00:01:47,161 Speaker 1: This was several years after eating the diet as well. 29 00:01:48,081 --> 00:01:50,601 Speaker 1: I think I first got in contact with Jason at 30 00:01:50,601 --> 00:01:55,561 Speaker 1: the end of twenty nineteen or the beginning of twenty twenty, 31 00:01:55,921 --> 00:02:00,201 Speaker 1: just pre pandemic arriving in Australia. Lots of the systems 32 00:02:00,281 --> 00:02:03,001 Speaker 1: he were closing down. I mean, certainly in Tasmania we've 33 00:02:03,041 --> 00:02:05,881 Speaker 1: got assist fairly insular and closing system a lot of 34 00:02:05,881 --> 00:02:09,201 Speaker 1: the time. Anyway, it was tricky to meet up with 35 00:02:09,321 --> 00:02:11,801 Speaker 1: people and get things done. So they did a really, 36 00:02:11,961 --> 00:02:14,520 Speaker 1: really good job of advocacy for their daughter. 37 00:02:15,041 --> 00:02:18,761 Speaker 2: As a journalist, as an investigative journalist, What did you 38 00:02:18,881 --> 00:02:21,921 Speaker 2: see at the outset from those early days back in 39 00:02:21,960 --> 00:02:25,881 Speaker 2: twenty nineteen that was interesting for you to try and 40 00:02:25,921 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 2: tell that story. 41 00:02:27,401 --> 00:02:30,041 Speaker 1: Well, I'm sure that you've already raised this in your 42 00:02:30,081 --> 00:02:33,361 Speaker 1: podcast before, but some of the concerns I had were 43 00:02:33,481 --> 00:02:37,281 Speaker 1: around the police investigation to start with, and Jason and 44 00:02:37,321 --> 00:02:41,201 Speaker 1: Amanda have done a really good job of identifying and 45 00:02:41,361 --> 00:02:44,641 Speaker 1: pinpointing some of those problems. So there are a number 46 00:02:44,641 --> 00:02:49,721 Speaker 1: of problems, like a key person of concern, a young 47 00:02:49,800 --> 00:02:52,841 Speaker 1: woman who I think you referred to as. 48 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:54,841 Speaker 2: Yeah, we call it Kate in the podcast. 49 00:02:54,921 --> 00:02:58,321 Speaker 1: That's right, so that she hadn't been spoken to despite 50 00:02:58,401 --> 00:03:05,081 Speaker 1: exhibiting perhaps or seemingly bizarre behaviors after Eden's death. I 51 00:03:05,121 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: was also talk of an older woman Aiden had apparently 52 00:03:07,441 --> 00:03:10,081 Speaker 1: been speaking to on the night of her death, and 53 00:03:10,081 --> 00:03:12,921 Speaker 1: they've been spoken to by police. There were concerns about 54 00:03:12,960 --> 00:03:17,120 Speaker 1: police process that Edan's body was left exposed in front 55 00:03:17,161 --> 00:03:22,201 Speaker 1: of passes by school children motorists for hours and hours 56 00:03:22,321 --> 00:03:26,481 Speaker 1: on end without having any kind of covering up, and 57 00:03:26,561 --> 00:03:30,800 Speaker 1: the trauma that that really exacerbated for the Westbrook family. 58 00:03:31,361 --> 00:03:35,361 Speaker 1: And there was also concern about CCTV footage that it 59 00:03:35,481 --> 00:03:38,281 Speaker 1: was apparently available on the night but then became corrupt 60 00:03:38,321 --> 00:03:41,161 Speaker 1: and wasn't able to pass on to the coroner. At 61 00:03:41,201 --> 00:03:44,441 Speaker 1: the other end of that, I was also concerned with 62 00:03:44,521 --> 00:03:49,481 Speaker 1: the fact that the coroner had done in camera, so 63 00:03:49,521 --> 00:03:51,481 Speaker 1: we weren't able to see any of the kind of 64 00:03:51,521 --> 00:03:55,161 Speaker 1: processes that happened. In saying this, a lot of death 65 00:03:55,201 --> 00:03:59,641 Speaker 1: investigations happen in camera when the coroner determines there's not 66 00:03:59,681 --> 00:04:01,281 Speaker 1: a need for a public inquest. 67 00:04:01,521 --> 00:04:04,241 Speaker 2: When you talk about in camera, you're talking give us 68 00:04:04,241 --> 00:04:07,521 Speaker 2: the deafinitie for the layman. What in camera means. 69 00:04:07,881 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 1: Oh, sorry? In camera means that private, closed off outsiders 70 00:04:11,881 --> 00:04:12,841 Speaker 1: aren't welcoming. 71 00:04:13,721 --> 00:04:16,601 Speaker 2: And so we journalized like yourself that's following this story 72 00:04:16,681 --> 00:04:20,521 Speaker 2: from the early days, wouldn't be allowed to enter the 73 00:04:20,521 --> 00:04:22,281 Speaker 2: courtroom to take note. 74 00:04:22,801 --> 00:04:26,281 Speaker 1: That's right, absolutely precluded. So media would be absolutely precluded 75 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:29,841 Speaker 1: from an in camera session. This happened way before I 76 00:04:29,880 --> 00:04:34,361 Speaker 1: was involved with the Westbrooks anyway. In saying that, sometimes 77 00:04:34,401 --> 00:04:39,401 Speaker 1: it's not necessary or appropriate to have a public inquest, 78 00:04:39,440 --> 00:04:42,161 Speaker 1: it might be more appropriate to have an in camera inquest, 79 00:04:42,641 --> 00:04:45,960 Speaker 1: and it might be more appropriate to have a death 80 00:04:46,001 --> 00:04:49,841 Speaker 1: investigation that occurs without a public in quest. So I'm 81 00:04:49,841 --> 00:04:55,760 Speaker 1: not certainly not broad scaling criticizing a currenter's decision to 82 00:04:55,961 --> 00:04:59,080 Speaker 1: not necessarily hold an inquest, because in a lot of 83 00:04:59,121 --> 00:05:03,640 Speaker 1: cases they are appropriate. However, in this particular situation, we 84 00:05:03,801 --> 00:05:08,561 Speaker 1: had concerns with police process, and then we weren't seeing 85 00:05:08,561 --> 00:05:12,921 Speaker 1: them aired under a coroner's court to see whether or 86 00:05:12,921 --> 00:05:16,121 Speaker 1: not's police process had been followed properly. 87 00:05:15,880 --> 00:05:19,001 Speaker 2: Or not along the way. Was there anything in your 88 00:05:19,041 --> 00:05:22,681 Speaker 2: investigations that sort of you know, you mentioned that the 89 00:05:22,761 --> 00:05:25,720 Speaker 2: girl we've called Kate, you've mentioned the CCTV, you've mentioned 90 00:05:26,001 --> 00:05:29,561 Speaker 2: the police handling of the scene at the time. Was 91 00:05:29,561 --> 00:05:32,481 Speaker 2: there anything in your investigations in those early days that 92 00:05:32,601 --> 00:05:37,081 Speaker 2: you really went this is just unusual. This doesn't feel right. 93 00:05:38,241 --> 00:05:39,881 Speaker 2: Outside of those things that you've mentioned. 94 00:05:41,161 --> 00:05:47,281 Speaker 1: We do see potential and alleged police mishandling, not frequently, 95 00:05:47,361 --> 00:05:50,641 Speaker 1: but we do, says and one of the classic cases 96 00:05:51,241 --> 00:05:54,161 Speaker 1: is the Victoria Cafaso murder. So this is one of 97 00:05:54,161 --> 00:05:58,361 Speaker 1: the classic Tasmanian unsolved crimes, when a young Italian tourist 98 00:05:58,561 --> 00:06:02,241 Speaker 1: was brutally murdered on an East coast beach in Tasmania. 99 00:06:02,521 --> 00:06:05,481 Speaker 1: She was in a remote location. So we've got very 100 00:06:05,601 --> 00:06:09,121 Speaker 1: very regional police being sent out and not necessarily senior 101 00:06:09,161 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: homicide detectives because they would be taking several hours to 102 00:06:12,921 --> 00:06:17,201 Speaker 1: attend to such a scene. At Victoria Cafaso's death scene, 103 00:06:17,401 --> 00:06:20,080 Speaker 1: the death scene was completely mismanaged. She was dragged in 104 00:06:20,121 --> 00:06:25,241 Speaker 1: and out of the serf footprints of the alleged defender. 105 00:06:25,801 --> 00:06:28,681 Speaker 1: There was one cast taken, but the rest were blown 106 00:06:28,721 --> 00:06:32,481 Speaker 1: away and washed away. Another key evidence wasn't taken at 107 00:06:32,481 --> 00:06:36,001 Speaker 1: the scene properly. So this is a classic case where 108 00:06:36,361 --> 00:06:38,721 Speaker 1: what we know was a definite murder at the time 109 00:06:38,841 --> 00:06:42,921 Speaker 1: actually in a location very eerily close by to Eden's death. 110 00:06:44,320 --> 00:06:45,921 Speaker 1: This is a case where we know that there was 111 00:06:45,961 --> 00:06:49,281 Speaker 1: definitely a murder and in which the crime scene was 112 00:06:49,320 --> 00:06:53,801 Speaker 1: bungled by police. So it certainly does happen, and it 113 00:06:53,841 --> 00:06:56,921 Speaker 1: doesn't just happen in Tasmania, of course, it happens everywhere, 114 00:06:57,281 --> 00:07:00,601 Speaker 1: but we do see a higher concentration of these kind 115 00:07:00,641 --> 00:07:07,320 Speaker 1: of problems in regional areas because inexperienced police officers are 116 00:07:07,561 --> 00:07:09,281 Speaker 1: having to be the first responders. 117 00:07:09,681 --> 00:07:12,401 Speaker 2: One of those cases that is a little more recent 118 00:07:12,481 --> 00:07:17,841 Speaker 2: than Cafaso's is the case of a man called John Norrish, 119 00:07:17,961 --> 00:07:19,921 Speaker 2: which happened about five years ago. Do you want to 120 00:07:19,961 --> 00:07:22,841 Speaker 2: fill us in on that case first, and then how 121 00:07:22,921 --> 00:07:26,281 Speaker 2: there's some similarities in that police reaction to that case. 122 00:07:26,641 --> 00:07:30,281 Speaker 1: The similarities with John Norrish really begin and end in 123 00:07:30,321 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: the fact that it was a Saint Helen's case. There 124 00:07:33,881 --> 00:07:38,641 Speaker 1: was potential or alleged to police mishandling of that case, 125 00:07:39,041 --> 00:07:42,601 Speaker 1: but I would say that they were for completely different reasons. 126 00:07:43,041 --> 00:07:45,361 Speaker 1: So a lot of the time, when we've got older 127 00:07:46,561 --> 00:07:51,241 Speaker 1: male people who might have alcohol or drug problems, or 128 00:07:51,281 --> 00:07:56,041 Speaker 1: they're homeless, these kind of cases are treated differently than 129 00:07:56,121 --> 00:07:59,761 Speaker 1: other types of missing persons cases. It's almost like that 130 00:07:59,801 --> 00:08:03,401 Speaker 1: these people are expected to go just wandering off into 131 00:08:03,441 --> 00:08:07,401 Speaker 1: a stream somewhere, and it does appear that that's what 132 00:08:07,601 --> 00:08:10,321 Speaker 1: happened in the John Norrish case. So we've got a 133 00:08:11,121 --> 00:08:14,601 Speaker 1: chap who's he wasn't actually homeless, but his family described 134 00:08:14,641 --> 00:08:18,161 Speaker 1: him as a lost soul. So John Norrish was the 135 00:08:18,281 --> 00:08:20,161 Speaker 1: kind of guy. He's a little bit of like that 136 00:08:20,281 --> 00:08:22,601 Speaker 1: King of the Road song, you know that King of 137 00:08:22,641 --> 00:08:26,801 Speaker 1: the Road song. He'd gone fine, old butts, old cigarette bart, 138 00:08:26,881 --> 00:08:29,761 Speaker 1: seeing astrays and spark them back up to try and 139 00:08:29,801 --> 00:08:32,401 Speaker 1: get it, to try and get a smoke. He was 140 00:08:32,441 --> 00:08:38,641 Speaker 1: often seen hanging around the RSL. He was your typical older, 141 00:08:39,041 --> 00:08:43,081 Speaker 1: lost soul, troubled kind of bloke. And so often when 142 00:08:43,121 --> 00:08:48,561 Speaker 1: you've got that kind of stereotype that goes missing, the 143 00:08:48,601 --> 00:08:52,801 Speaker 1: police have less of an acute reaction. His family do 144 00:08:52,881 --> 00:08:56,801 Speaker 1: believe that he was murdered. In John Norrish's case, his 145 00:08:56,801 --> 00:09:00,641 Speaker 1: family don't believe he was murdered over just a small 146 00:09:00,681 --> 00:09:05,681 Speaker 1: amount of money. They thought that the offenders had taken 147 00:09:05,761 --> 00:09:07,881 Speaker 1: his bank cards so that if they could take from 148 00:09:07,921 --> 00:09:11,321 Speaker 1: his bank accounts, which is another thing that we see 149 00:09:11,321 --> 00:09:15,041 Speaker 1: happen to people, especially who might be on benefits or 150 00:09:15,441 --> 00:09:18,081 Speaker 1: living in sharehouse or boarding house accommodation. 151 00:09:19,001 --> 00:09:21,641 Speaker 2: Has there been a coronial inquest into John Norwich. 152 00:09:22,201 --> 00:09:25,241 Speaker 1: There wasn't a public inquest, but a curndin recently hand 153 00:09:25,241 --> 00:09:29,081 Speaker 1: down their findings and they were indeterminates, and. 154 00:09:28,961 --> 00:09:31,761 Speaker 2: That means that they don't know how John passed. 155 00:09:32,001 --> 00:09:35,361 Speaker 1: Yes, that's right, so they'll often can come The coroners 156 00:09:35,361 --> 00:09:38,561 Speaker 1: will often say something like that they've because of all 157 00:09:38,561 --> 00:09:41,881 Speaker 1: the proof of life checks done by the police or 158 00:09:41,881 --> 00:09:43,961 Speaker 1: by senseling that kind of thing, that yes, we can 159 00:09:44,001 --> 00:09:47,761 Speaker 1: confirm that the person is almost certainly dead, but we 160 00:09:47,841 --> 00:09:49,761 Speaker 1: don't know how or why they died. 161 00:09:52,241 --> 00:09:55,481 Speaker 2: Obviously, the detail of the John Norrish case are different 162 00:09:55,521 --> 00:10:00,201 Speaker 2: to Eden's, but there are some similarities, and especially around 163 00:10:00,241 --> 00:10:04,761 Speaker 2: the police investigation into his probable death. While I was 164 00:10:04,761 --> 00:10:08,321 Speaker 2: talking with the Amber off Mike, she mentioned a concept 165 00:10:08,361 --> 00:10:11,401 Speaker 2: which has been written about in psychology journals right across 166 00:10:11,441 --> 00:10:13,641 Speaker 2: the world, and I asked Amber to talk to me 167 00:10:13,721 --> 00:10:18,681 Speaker 2: about how that relates to Tasmania. The topic is island mentality. 168 00:10:18,921 --> 00:10:21,441 Speaker 1: You've got a group of people who live in a 169 00:10:21,481 --> 00:10:27,801 Speaker 1: regional or remote area. There's a method or process to 170 00:10:28,001 --> 00:10:31,081 Speaker 1: pretty much everything, and that method or process will always 171 00:10:31,121 --> 00:10:35,601 Speaker 1: be followed. So in someway like Tasmania, we're cut off 172 00:10:35,641 --> 00:10:40,081 Speaker 1: from the systems of administration and oversight in Canberra or 173 00:10:40,121 --> 00:10:44,161 Speaker 1: even in Melbourne by the bass strays, and we're historically 174 00:10:44,241 --> 00:10:47,081 Speaker 1: cut off from the rest of Australia, and we're extremely 175 00:10:47,121 --> 00:10:49,881 Speaker 1: cut off from the rest of the world. So it's 176 00:10:50,001 --> 00:10:54,761 Speaker 1: not just a gegraphical isolation. So when we talk about 177 00:10:55,081 --> 00:10:59,841 Speaker 1: island mentality, we're also talking about a psychological separation. So 178 00:11:00,361 --> 00:11:02,761 Speaker 1: this is the way that things are done around here. 179 00:11:03,121 --> 00:11:07,001 Speaker 1: And so if an outsider comes in trying to enforce 180 00:11:07,201 --> 00:11:13,401 Speaker 1: a perhaps more professional or proficient way of following a process, 181 00:11:13,561 --> 00:11:18,881 Speaker 1: including police processes or legal processes, they might be shut 182 00:11:18,881 --> 00:11:22,761 Speaker 1: off insaying this or While we do have a lot 183 00:11:22,801 --> 00:11:25,361 Speaker 1: of these problems in Tasmania and they date back to 184 00:11:25,601 --> 00:11:30,081 Speaker 1: our history as a convict island, we do have some 185 00:11:30,281 --> 00:11:34,161 Speaker 1: really good legal minds here, we have some fantastic and 186 00:11:34,281 --> 00:11:38,041 Speaker 1: competent members of the judiciary, including on our Supreme Course 187 00:11:38,481 --> 00:11:42,281 Speaker 1: now mast is caught, and in our Coronial Division. So 188 00:11:42,681 --> 00:11:46,761 Speaker 1: while we might be criticizing some of the structures and 189 00:11:46,801 --> 00:11:51,161 Speaker 1: processes here, it's also important to remember that we do 190 00:11:51,241 --> 00:11:54,561 Speaker 1: have some very fine men and women who cease on 191 00:11:54,601 --> 00:11:57,441 Speaker 1: those benches, who are doing a really good job of 192 00:11:57,481 --> 00:12:02,921 Speaker 1: turning up every day and trying to enforce the law 193 00:12:03,321 --> 00:12:04,801 Speaker 1: and maintain justice. 194 00:12:05,561 --> 00:12:07,801 Speaker 2: One of those people that I've spoken to recently, not 195 00:12:07,881 --> 00:12:12,281 Speaker 2: on record, but off record, is Regina Weiss. Regina obviously 196 00:12:12,361 --> 00:12:17,361 Speaker 2: is looking currently into the Paul Reynolds fiasco. There's not 197 00:12:17,481 --> 00:12:19,961 Speaker 2: a better way to put it. You've obviously been following 198 00:12:20,001 --> 00:12:23,601 Speaker 2: that Reynolds case fairly closely. You think there's any connection 199 00:12:23,721 --> 00:12:26,641 Speaker 2: between the Reynolds case and even Westbrook case? 200 00:12:27,801 --> 00:12:33,401 Speaker 1: Oh? I mean Jay So Tasmanian police will often put 201 00:12:34,361 --> 00:12:39,961 Speaker 1: a senior officer on zeconment to be an officer assisting 202 00:12:40,121 --> 00:12:43,961 Speaker 1: the coroner, so they're taken away from their regular duties 203 00:12:44,241 --> 00:12:48,361 Speaker 1: for a period of time to oversee inquest in other 204 00:12:48,441 --> 00:12:51,681 Speaker 1: cronial duties, and that's what Paul Reynolds was doing for 205 00:12:51,721 --> 00:12:55,001 Speaker 1: a while and one of the cases that he had 206 00:12:55,001 --> 00:12:58,681 Speaker 1: to oversee was that of Eden Westbrook. So we've got 207 00:12:59,681 --> 00:13:03,081 Speaker 1: a person who was certainly spending a lot of time 208 00:13:03,641 --> 00:13:07,721 Speaker 1: grooming and using, as far as we know, young men 209 00:13:08,081 --> 00:13:11,521 Speaker 1: that he was exposed to, especially through his work as 210 00:13:11,521 --> 00:13:15,561 Speaker 1: a police officer and in Tasmane's football community, who was 211 00:13:15,961 --> 00:13:19,801 Speaker 1: also doing police and coronial work. So he did have 212 00:13:19,881 --> 00:13:23,521 Speaker 1: oversight of the of the cronial process with Eden Westbrook. 213 00:13:23,561 --> 00:13:27,241 Speaker 1: From a police perspective, certainly Paul Reynolds was not a 214 00:13:27,281 --> 00:13:31,441 Speaker 1: person of good repuse, and you wouldn't want someone of 215 00:13:31,521 --> 00:13:36,641 Speaker 1: ill repuse signing off on important legal documents, especially when 216 00:13:36,681 --> 00:13:40,641 Speaker 1: you're talking about your daughter who's died. So we can definitely, 217 00:13:41,321 --> 00:13:44,481 Speaker 1: we can definitely say that that we've got a person 218 00:13:44,481 --> 00:13:46,961 Speaker 1: who's not a person of good repute signing up on 219 00:13:47,041 --> 00:13:51,161 Speaker 1: these important legal documents. But as far as do we 220 00:13:51,241 --> 00:13:54,121 Speaker 1: know if Paul and Al's had any further connection with Eden, 221 00:13:54,641 --> 00:13:56,521 Speaker 1: I don't think we have that kind of information. 222 00:13:58,321 --> 00:14:02,041 Speaker 2: We've heard a fair bit around teachers in some of 223 00:14:02,041 --> 00:14:05,041 Speaker 2: the government institutions, and obviously there was a whole commission 224 00:14:05,641 --> 00:14:11,641 Speaker 2: around government institutions including schools and Ashley Detention Center. And hospitals, 225 00:14:12,481 --> 00:14:16,041 Speaker 2: which you've covered extensively. Does Tasmania have an issue? Does 226 00:14:16,081 --> 00:14:19,041 Speaker 2: Tasmania have a problem? Do you think so this. 227 00:14:19,121 --> 00:14:22,161 Speaker 1: Is where we come back to that island's mentality, or 228 00:14:22,201 --> 00:14:26,881 Speaker 1: perhaps it's that geographical cutoffness that we have in Tasmania. Again, 229 00:14:27,321 --> 00:14:29,921 Speaker 1: so all across the world we had the me Too 230 00:14:30,081 --> 00:14:34,801 Speaker 1: movement and then in Australia we had this huge outburst 231 00:14:35,201 --> 00:14:39,481 Speaker 1: of legal cases from historical child sexual abuse that have 232 00:14:39,601 --> 00:14:43,441 Speaker 1: proliferated across the country and people finally being brought to justice. 233 00:14:44,241 --> 00:14:49,121 Speaker 1: That took longer to happen in Tasmania because we're cut off. 234 00:14:49,761 --> 00:14:53,601 Speaker 1: So we're steal in our watershed moment down here in Tasmania. 235 00:14:53,921 --> 00:14:59,281 Speaker 1: We're seal having people found out from decades ago, and 236 00:14:59,401 --> 00:15:03,361 Speaker 1: unfortunately that some of that work has fallen on local 237 00:15:03,441 --> 00:15:08,041 Speaker 1: journalists to do and uncover and there's a myriad reasons 238 00:15:08,081 --> 00:15:11,681 Speaker 1: for that. But we're having our moment too now of 239 00:15:11,801 --> 00:15:15,521 Speaker 1: finally getting justice and finally having all those secrets swept 240 00:15:15,921 --> 00:15:17,041 Speaker 1: out from under the rug. 241 00:15:17,321 --> 00:15:18,921 Speaker 2: What change needs to happen in government? 242 00:15:18,921 --> 00:15:23,201 Speaker 1: Do you think in Tasmania we've traditionally had troubles with 243 00:15:23,441 --> 00:15:26,521 Speaker 1: our government and our parliament. Again from being cut off 244 00:15:26,561 --> 00:15:29,161 Speaker 1: from the rest of the world. And again, this is 245 00:15:29,241 --> 00:15:32,161 Speaker 1: just the way things are done down here. If you 246 00:15:32,201 --> 00:15:35,521 Speaker 1: look at some of our environmental problems as just to 247 00:15:35,601 --> 00:15:37,881 Speaker 1: start with, a lot of things are done down here 248 00:15:37,921 --> 00:15:40,681 Speaker 1: in a way that they just wouldn't be done in 249 00:15:40,801 --> 00:15:46,201 Speaker 1: other areas that have, say ecological preservation as a priority. 250 00:15:47,361 --> 00:15:50,281 Speaker 1: So a lot of that change is that starts at 251 00:15:50,321 --> 00:15:54,321 Speaker 1: a cultural level. So we're still getting there. We're still 252 00:15:54,841 --> 00:15:59,561 Speaker 1: growing up as a jurisdiction. We're still moving out of 253 00:15:59,641 --> 00:16:02,881 Speaker 1: the twentieth century in Tasmania, so we're in twenty twenty 254 00:16:02,881 --> 00:16:06,681 Speaker 1: four book, but we lag behind people who were coming 255 00:16:06,721 --> 00:16:09,961 Speaker 1: from overseas or even Melbourne and Sydney to somewhere like 256 00:16:10,041 --> 00:16:14,481 Speaker 1: Tasmania in the nineteen sixties nineteen seventies, it was like 257 00:16:14,681 --> 00:16:18,081 Speaker 1: time traveling. That's not as much of a clash these 258 00:16:18,201 --> 00:16:21,521 Speaker 1: days as it was then, but there still is a clash. 259 00:16:21,761 --> 00:16:25,641 Speaker 1: You come from these busy jurisdictions overseas and inter state 260 00:16:26,041 --> 00:16:28,761 Speaker 1: and into this place where you can hear your footsteps 261 00:16:28,761 --> 00:16:31,921 Speaker 1: echo as you walk down the streets. Things are completely 262 00:16:31,961 --> 00:16:35,361 Speaker 1: different here and they always have been, and we take 263 00:16:35,521 --> 00:16:40,281 Speaker 1: longer to catch up with things. Modernity takes longer to 264 00:16:40,401 --> 00:16:41,681 Speaker 1: occur in Tasmania. 265 00:16:42,761 --> 00:16:46,041 Speaker 2: What do you think could happen or should happen with 266 00:16:46,081 --> 00:16:47,321 Speaker 2: you in Westbrook, Kaysember. 267 00:16:47,961 --> 00:16:51,681 Speaker 1: As a journalist, it's a bit tricky for me to 268 00:16:51,841 --> 00:16:55,441 Speaker 1: come out and say the coroner should hold an inquest 269 00:16:56,761 --> 00:16:59,961 Speaker 1: because I have to keep working with the cranial processes 270 00:17:00,001 --> 00:17:02,641 Speaker 1: and the current coroners every single day. It would be 271 00:17:02,721 --> 00:17:06,041 Speaker 1: fantastic to see an in quest come out of this, 272 00:17:06,681 --> 00:17:10,441 Speaker 1: a public in quest, so that all of those concerns 273 00:17:10,481 --> 00:17:13,921 Speaker 1: can be aired in a public space. So Eden's family 274 00:17:14,281 --> 00:17:17,521 Speaker 1: gets a chance to speak, So Eden's family gets the 275 00:17:17,640 --> 00:17:20,201 Speaker 1: chance to hear from those witnesses, So some of those 276 00:17:20,241 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: witnesses who weren't heard before that we can finally hear 277 00:17:23,961 --> 00:17:30,041 Speaker 1: from them. That would be the dream scenario. Whatever outcome 278 00:17:30,360 --> 00:17:35,281 Speaker 1: comes from that, we don't really have control over that, 279 00:17:35,360 --> 00:17:38,680 Speaker 1: but it would be fantastic to see an inquest. In 280 00:17:38,840 --> 00:17:45,360 Speaker 1: saying that, I'm also aware that Tasmanian coroners have thousands 281 00:17:45,521 --> 00:17:47,721 Speaker 1: of cases that they have to get through each year, 282 00:17:48,360 --> 00:17:52,920 Speaker 1: and they feel very strongly about maintaining their power to 283 00:17:53,041 --> 00:17:56,600 Speaker 1: determine in which cases an inquest should or should not 284 00:17:56,840 --> 00:18:00,280 Speaker 1: be held. And we had a case last week of 285 00:18:01,600 --> 00:18:03,961 Speaker 1: Jari Wise. I'm not sure if you've heard that case, 286 00:18:04,001 --> 00:18:07,281 Speaker 1: but this was a young fellow who was mowed down 287 00:18:07,640 --> 00:18:13,480 Speaker 1: by his girlfriend in her car in February twenty twenty. 288 00:18:13,801 --> 00:18:17,521 Speaker 1: It's kind of a similar case because Jari's mother, Faith 289 00:18:17,640 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: was calling for an inquest for years and years and years. 290 00:18:21,281 --> 00:18:23,801 Speaker 1: When the coroner said no, she appealed to the Supreme 291 00:18:23,801 --> 00:18:27,321 Speaker 1: Court of Tasmania. The Supreme Court of Tasmania did hand 292 00:18:27,321 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: down a finding dismissing her appeal. So we're going to 293 00:18:31,681 --> 00:18:34,481 Speaker 1: agree with the coroner's court not to hold an appeal. 294 00:18:35,321 --> 00:18:39,001 Speaker 1: But then, in an extraordinary intervention, our former Attorney General 295 00:18:39,120 --> 00:18:43,160 Speaker 1: intervened and ordered that there must be an in quest. 296 00:18:43,561 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 1: So we've just gone through that process. The inquest was 297 00:18:47,001 --> 00:18:51,121 Speaker 1: held a few months ago, and last Monday, so exactly 298 00:18:51,160 --> 00:18:55,841 Speaker 1: a week ago, the coroner handed down his findings and 299 00:18:55,921 --> 00:19:00,761 Speaker 1: he was extremely unimpressed with having had to be forced 300 00:19:00,801 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: to hold an inquest. He said it changed nothing. His 301 00:19:04,201 --> 00:19:09,641 Speaker 1: findings were exactly the same, and he really spoke at 302 00:19:09,721 --> 00:19:16,161 Speaker 1: length about some of the problems that occur when different 303 00:19:16,281 --> 00:19:22,121 Speaker 1: levels of government and power intervene with others, and how 304 00:19:22,160 --> 00:19:25,881 Speaker 1: that could end up causing coroners to have to hold 305 00:19:26,281 --> 00:19:29,521 Speaker 1: three times in amount of inquest they currently do, the 306 00:19:29,521 --> 00:19:32,601 Speaker 1: delays that would put on the system, and the ultimate 307 00:19:32,681 --> 00:19:38,001 Speaker 1: heartbreak and stress and trauma that would exacerbate upon existing families. 308 00:19:38,961 --> 00:19:42,640 Speaker 2: So for Faith and the family Jari's family, nothing really 309 00:19:42,721 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 2: changed from that first coronial matter through to the second 310 00:19:47,921 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: that was called for. 311 00:19:49,080 --> 00:19:53,401 Speaker 1: That's correct. So the coroner did put out public findings 312 00:19:53,441 --> 00:19:56,680 Speaker 1: saying that Jari did not jump in front of the car, 313 00:19:57,400 --> 00:20:03,801 Speaker 1: and that was really vindicating for Jarry's mother and Jarry's family. However, 314 00:20:03,840 --> 00:20:06,641 Speaker 1: he found that there were no evidence to show that 315 00:20:07,160 --> 00:20:11,680 Speaker 1: Jarry's girlfriend had deliberately run him over. So Jerry's family 316 00:20:11,721 --> 00:20:13,441 Speaker 1: is really stealed back at square one with. 317 00:20:13,441 --> 00:20:21,041 Speaker 2: As Amber has another case that also has not only 318 00:20:21,080 --> 00:20:24,920 Speaker 2: some similarities but might hold some hope for Jason and 319 00:20:24,961 --> 00:20:26,961 Speaker 2: Amanda Westbrook and their family. 320 00:20:27,321 --> 00:20:30,000 Speaker 1: So a case that came to mind when we were 321 00:20:30,041 --> 00:20:34,161 Speaker 1: talking was of a woman in Hobart who was found 322 00:20:35,001 --> 00:20:38,721 Speaker 1: deceased in her garage and this was about twenty ten. 323 00:20:39,201 --> 00:20:42,321 Speaker 1: She was a palliative care nurse, a mum. She had 324 00:20:42,400 --> 00:20:45,801 Speaker 1: I think three children and a husband. The relationship was 325 00:20:45,840 --> 00:20:49,880 Speaker 1: breaking down now she was found in her garage. The 326 00:20:49,921 --> 00:20:53,281 Speaker 1: police came it looked like a cut and dry suicide, 327 00:20:54,281 --> 00:21:00,241 Speaker 1: and the coroner ruled it as a suicide. Interestingly, very interestingly, 328 00:21:00,321 --> 00:21:04,480 Speaker 1: what happened over the next few years was that the 329 00:21:04,600 --> 00:21:10,041 Speaker 1: husband set that house on fire to claim insurance money. 330 00:21:10,241 --> 00:21:14,360 Speaker 1: He then used that money, as well as the money 331 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:18,440 Speaker 1: that his sons that inherited from their mother's superannuation to 332 00:21:18,561 --> 00:21:22,321 Speaker 1: purchase another house to south of Hobart. He set that 333 00:21:22,400 --> 00:21:25,920 Speaker 1: on fire too to claim insurance funds and also a 334 00:21:25,961 --> 00:21:30,001 Speaker 1: combe van. And I can say this cut and dry 335 00:21:30,120 --> 00:21:32,920 Speaker 1: because he was convicted of that and was sent to 336 00:21:33,080 --> 00:21:36,241 Speaker 1: jail for doing that. Some other people that he spoke 337 00:21:36,321 --> 00:21:40,401 Speaker 1: to in the coming years claimed that he had bragged 338 00:21:40,521 --> 00:21:44,200 Speaker 1: them about actually murdering his wife and staging it to 339 00:21:44,241 --> 00:21:47,440 Speaker 1: look like a suicide. So after all this happened, after 340 00:21:47,521 --> 00:21:52,161 Speaker 1: the alleged conversation with friends, all of a sudden there's 341 00:21:52,201 --> 00:21:55,480 Speaker 1: an inquest held in Hobart. I had no idea what 342 00:21:55,481 --> 00:21:57,680 Speaker 1: this case was going to be. I just turned up 343 00:21:57,721 --> 00:21:59,761 Speaker 1: to court not sure what it was going to be about. 344 00:22:00,160 --> 00:22:02,961 Speaker 1: And the counselor assisting the coroner said this death was 345 00:22:03,041 --> 00:22:06,880 Speaker 1: ruled as a suicide in twenty but due to a 346 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,481 Speaker 1: number of things that have happened since and due to 347 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,241 Speaker 1: concerns that the investigators had at the time about him 348 00:22:13,360 --> 00:22:16,121 Speaker 1: the husband, trying to cover up certain bits of evidence, 349 00:22:16,801 --> 00:22:20,960 Speaker 1: we're actually now investigating this as a potential murder. So 350 00:22:21,041 --> 00:22:23,921 Speaker 1: that case is now being investigated as a potential murder. 351 00:22:24,521 --> 00:22:27,080 Speaker 1: Is it like fourteen years later, are. 352 00:22:26,961 --> 00:22:28,640 Speaker 2: The husband's currently still in jail. 353 00:22:28,721 --> 00:22:32,880 Speaker 1: The husband's out of jail for the arsons. 354 00:22:32,400 --> 00:22:35,960 Speaker 2: But now is a person of interest I guess in 355 00:22:36,001 --> 00:22:36,440 Speaker 2: the dead. 356 00:22:36,441 --> 00:22:38,880 Speaker 1: He's a person of interest in a potential murder. So 357 00:22:38,961 --> 00:22:41,321 Speaker 1: within the next couple of months we'll get a coroner's 358 00:22:41,321 --> 00:22:45,281 Speaker 1: finding on where the coroner believes he could have murdered 359 00:22:45,281 --> 00:22:47,841 Speaker 1: his wife and staged it to look like a suicide. 360 00:22:48,160 --> 00:22:51,080 Speaker 1: The reason I'm bringing this up is it has a 361 00:22:51,080 --> 00:22:55,521 Speaker 1: lot of echoes of the Westbrook case, including the method 362 00:22:55,561 --> 00:22:56,001 Speaker 1: of death. 363 00:22:57,120 --> 00:23:02,241 Speaker 2: So that feels slight for me that there's an ounce 364 00:23:02,281 --> 00:23:05,680 Speaker 2: of hope. There's an ounce of hope for the Eden 365 00:23:05,721 --> 00:23:09,360 Speaker 2: Westbrook family, Jason and Amanda, or anyone in the situation 366 00:23:09,481 --> 00:23:13,960 Speaker 2: where police naturally go this was a suicide as the 367 00:23:14,001 --> 00:23:14,721 Speaker 2: first instance. 368 00:23:14,761 --> 00:23:17,121 Speaker 1: And this is something to think about because a lot 369 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:19,120 Speaker 1: of people in the judiciary, a lot of people in 370 00:23:19,160 --> 00:23:24,161 Speaker 1: Tasmania Police. Tasmanian Police is such a big, amorphous organization 371 00:23:24,360 --> 00:23:28,001 Speaker 1: that's full of thousands of people, and people have differing 372 00:23:28,120 --> 00:23:32,680 Speaker 1: levels of talents and integrity and motivation. There's good people 373 00:23:32,681 --> 00:23:36,801 Speaker 1: in Tasmania Police. In theory, if evidence starts to stack up, 374 00:23:37,640 --> 00:23:41,640 Speaker 1: hopefully an investigator will put two and two together and 375 00:23:41,681 --> 00:23:45,801 Speaker 1: put a case forward and request an inquest be opened. So, 376 00:23:45,921 --> 00:23:48,801 Speaker 1: if enough evidence was to stack up in the Eden 377 00:23:48,840 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: Westbrook case, that could absolutely happen, because we've seen it 378 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:53,600 Speaker 1: happen now with this other case.