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Speaker 1: This podcast was recorded on the land of the Gatigel

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Speaker 1: people of the Eur Nation.

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Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to the Real Story with Joe hild Around.

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Speaker 2: Huge episode for you this week. A Firebrands Senator just

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Speaker 2: Center Price says that labor is just bringing Indian migrants

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Speaker 2: here because they're all going to vote for it. So

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Speaker 2: is she racist or is she right? Plus? Donald Trump

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Speaker 2: has just created a Department of War, so why who's

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Speaker 2: he going to war with? And is he really in

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Speaker 2: the Epstein files? This is going to be very very juicy, indeed,

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Speaker 2: and maybe not in a good way. Also, Robert F. Kennedy,

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Speaker 2: Junior Trump's Secretary of Health, has been charged with finding

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Speaker 2: out what is causing autism? But is he the right

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Speaker 2: man to do it? And we'll speak about very special

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Speaker 2: guests who has absolutely destroyed RFK in her latest piece

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Speaker 2: for The Australian. All that more coming up first up

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Speaker 2: this week, I want to deal with the issue that

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Speaker 2: has been obsessing Australian politics and dominating headlines for a

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Speaker 2: week and comes on the back of a bigger issue

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Speaker 2: that has been dominating Australia for weeks, and that is migration,

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Speaker 2: the level of migration. Who is coming here and why,

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Speaker 2: And it has absolutely caught fire this week with Jaciner Price,

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Speaker 2: who is a Country Liberal Party senator and there's some

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Speaker 2: complications there as to whether she's Liberal or national because

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Speaker 2: she's recently just sort of switched asides. But anyway, and

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Speaker 2: she's a fire branch, she's very outspoken. He's a friend

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Speaker 2: of mine. I like her. I'm not going to join

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Speaker 2: the pylon. But she basically said that Labor had an

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Speaker 2: interest in bringing large numbers of Indian migrants to Australia.

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Speaker 2: And again, Indian migrants are the group who were singled

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Speaker 2: out by these appalling nasty PS's that were organized and

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Speaker 2: promoted the March for Australia rally a couple of weeks ago.

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Speaker 2: She said that they had a vested interest in bringing

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Speaker 2: these Indian migrants out here because they were more likely

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Speaker 2: to vote for Labor, so it was a way of

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Speaker 2: shoring up Labour's support base. Basically in as many words now,

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Speaker 2: for this, she has been absolutely castigated, how down people

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Speaker 2: have said that she's racist or demanded she apologize and

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Speaker 2: all sorts of hysterios. Some of the criticism is perfectly reasonable,

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Speaker 2: some of it has been absolutely hysterical. There are calls

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Speaker 2: within her own party, within the Liberal Party for her

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Speaker 2: to apologize. The Liberal leader Susan Lee has been so

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Speaker 2: far resisting those calls, possibly because if she did, it

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Speaker 2: would spark a civil war, because there were plenty of

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Speaker 2: other people who said that just In the Price did

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Speaker 2: nothing wrong and was simply stating the truth, stating facts.

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Speaker 2: And what no one is really talking about is is

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Speaker 2: the Indian community actually more likely to vote labor or not.

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Speaker 2: People are saying, oh, just enterprise of just talking about

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Speaker 2: the overall level of Indian migration. What people haven't actually

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Speaker 2: drilled down into is whether or not her claim that

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Speaker 2: Indian migrants are more likely to vote labor is actually true.

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Speaker 2: But I did because if there's any forbidden ground in

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Speaker 2: any political debate, that is where I will be treading.

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Speaker 2: And this is because I, and you know from my

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Speaker 2: guest last week, who's an Indian community leader this week

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Speaker 2: is I've got very close ties with the Indian community.

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Speaker 2: I spent a lot of time there, even just recently,

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Speaker 2: as it happens on an unrelated matter, but I was

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Speaker 2: there in Little India in Harris Park in Sydney, just

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Speaker 2: on the doorstep of Paramatta opening a restaurant. I brought

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Speaker 2: a lot of the people there to a round table

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Speaker 2: I was hosting about productivity and what small business people

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Speaker 2: want to see in our community, in our economy, and

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Speaker 2: of course about what ten years ago now jeez. I

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Speaker 2: did a documentary series with the ABC called Dumb, Drunken Racist,

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Speaker 2: in which I took a whole bunch of Indians all

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Speaker 2: around Australia, actual Indians, not Indian Australians, around Australia to

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Speaker 2: see what they thought of reports that Indian migrants and

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Speaker 2: Indian students here had been attacked and if we really

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Speaker 2: are a racist country. So I've got a long history

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Speaker 2: of dealing with and talking to and listening to Indian

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Speaker 2: Australians and Indians who are coming to Australia and thinking

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Speaker 2: of coming to Australia. And this is the really interesting

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Speaker 2: thing about the debate that a lot of people have

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Speaker 2: missed out on, and frankly what the Liberal Party, or

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Speaker 2: at least parts of the Liberal Party just don't get.

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Speaker 2: So I'm going to spell it out here. Hold on

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Speaker 2: to your hats, sit tight in your chairs, because this

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Speaker 2: will knock you off your feet. Are Indian Australians really

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Speaker 2: more likely to vote for Labor than they are for

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Speaker 2: the Liberal Party. Was just enter Price right that this

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Speaker 2: is all a giant sort of political stack on a

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Speaker 2: national scale. Yes, yes, she was well, at least in

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Speaker 2: terms of Little India and in terms of the results

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Speaker 2: in Australia's biggest and certainly best Indian community. But here's

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Speaker 2: the catch, because these guys should by and large be

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Speaker 2: the ultimate Liberal voter. So the guy I spoke to,

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Speaker 2: you know whose restaurant I opened, he was a migrant.

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Speaker 2: He said, he's actually got a saying and he says,

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Speaker 2: I came to this country with nothing, and I owe

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Speaker 2: this country everything. And he says it so often that

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Speaker 2: has almost become like he's kind of slogan. He's a

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Speaker 2: guy called Lorinda singing as a restaurant that he just opened.

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Speaker 2: I was at the opening of it in Harris Park,

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Speaker 2: literally right at the center of Harris Park, Like you

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Speaker 2: don't get more Indian Australian than this guy and this

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Speaker 2: restaurant in this place. And he was complaining about, you know,

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Speaker 2: all the regular three hoops he had to jump through,

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Speaker 2: all the council red tape, the council fees, the approval

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Speaker 2: process taking too long, he was talking about how and

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Speaker 2: in a very nice way. He wasn't bitching him, moaning,

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Speaker 2: but talking about how he couldn't get young Australian kids

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Speaker 2: or young local kids to work on weekends. You know,

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Speaker 2: young people, these millennials, they don't want to work. And

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Speaker 2: he had to get Indian students, people who are over

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Speaker 2: here on student visas to work in the restaurant because

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Speaker 2: he couldn't find the local local kids who worked for him.

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Speaker 2: And you know, he's a seek. He's a very religious,

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Speaker 2: very traditional, absolutely no completely integrated into the community, strong

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Speaker 2: family values, all this stuff. This guy should be the

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Speaker 2: ultimate conservative, the old liberal small businessman complaining about red

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Speaker 2: tape and young people not wanting to work and strong

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Speaker 2: family values, strong religious values. If this guy isn't voting

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Speaker 2: for the Liberal Party, there is something extremely wrong with

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Speaker 2: the Liberal Party. And again I don't know which way

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Speaker 2: he votes, but I can't tell you that. It was

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Speaker 2: Andrew Charlton, the Labor MP for Paramatter, who opened that

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Speaker 2: restaurant when I was there. And a funny thing happened

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Speaker 2: at the last election. Andrew Charlton turned Paramatter, which has

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Speaker 2: got the probably the biggest Indian community in Australia. He

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Speaker 2: turned that from a marginal seat, a seat that was

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Speaker 2: once held by the Liberals during the Howard government. He

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Speaker 2: turned that from a marginal seat and one which is

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Speaker 2: often targeted by the Liberals as one they could pick

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Speaker 2: up again from Labor have done it before. That is

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Speaker 2: now an ultra safe seat. He now holds that by

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Speaker 2: well over sixty percent, about sixty two point five percent

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Speaker 2: something like that. He's taken it up from about fifty

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Speaker 2: three I think it was at the last election. So yes, Indians,

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Speaker 2: and I had to look at the booths that were

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Speaker 2: closest to the Harris Park and those booths had an

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Speaker 2: even stronger support for Labor. They are above sort of

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Speaker 2: sixty three percent, And so yes, Indian voters. If we're

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Speaker 2: just going to go by that kind of random straw poll,

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Speaker 2: because believe it or not, we don't like to racially

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Speaker 2: profile people on this podcast, and and we don't like

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Speaker 2: to cross check. You know, voting in Australia is anonymous,

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Speaker 2: and so you cannot actually cross reference unless you've got

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Speaker 2: a mind reader. You cannot cross reference everyone's race and

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Speaker 2: everything with how they vote. But if you just look

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Speaker 2: at that Indian community, what is literally known as Little India.

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Speaker 2: They have I've massively swung behind the Labor Party at

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Speaker 2: the last election, but that wasn't always the way before that,

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Speaker 2: it was pretty much fifty to fifty and so yes,

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Speaker 2: they are more likely to vote Labor. It would seem

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Speaker 2: anecdotally from the people I've chatted too and the people

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Speaker 2: I have talked to in the area. But that's because

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Speaker 2: of comments like those of my beloved friend Just Enterprise,

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Speaker 2: just Ill Judge Collin, and because of comments like Peter

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Speaker 2: Dutton's during the election being tough on migration, making migration

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Speaker 2: an issue, because of perceptions that Conservatives or Liberal supporters

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Speaker 2: were supportive of the March for Australia, making excuses for it,

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Speaker 2: or trying to downplay the nasty elements that were there

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Speaker 2: who were circulating stuff about the Indian community. Because of

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Speaker 2: all that, it was because of a perception that Peter

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Speaker 2: Dunton and this came up and the Liberal Party's own

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Speaker 2: post election post mortem because of perceptions that Peter Dutton

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Speaker 2: and the coalition under his leadership was anti immigrant. And again,

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Speaker 2: these people they know what they know what that sentiment

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Speaker 2: looks like, they know what ethnic tension looks like, they

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Speaker 2: know what racism looks like and feels like, and they

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Speaker 2: know it when they see it, and they know it

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Speaker 2: when they hear it. And again I'm not tarring Peter

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Speaker 2: Dutton or just In A Price or whatever with racism. Brush.

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Speaker 2: I don't like calling people racists because the left has

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Speaker 2: thrown it around so much it's become utterly meaningless. But

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Speaker 2: the perception in the community, clearly under the Coalition at

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Speaker 2: the last election, was that they were anti migrant, they

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Speaker 2: were anti multicultural Australia, and that was the sentiment. However,

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Speaker 2: caveats there would be when Peter up and say, oh no,

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Speaker 2: we're just anti mass migration. And of course the my community,

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Speaker 2: it's already here, done a great job and he said

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Speaker 2: all the right things, but they just sniffed the wind.

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Speaker 2: So the long and the short of it is that

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Speaker 2: Jacinder Price in many ways was right. The Indian community

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Speaker 2: has swung. It seems more behind the Labor Party than

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Speaker 2: behind the Coalition. The catches that that's because the Coalition

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Speaker 2: sent them there. Now let's get onto the really, really

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Speaker 2: fun stuff, which of course is all about Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: And this week Donald Trump renamed the United States Department

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Speaker 2: of Defense the United States Department of War. Just keep

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Speaker 2: waiting for that echo. You know, woa, wo woe, what

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Speaker 2: is he good for? Little twelfth Man humor for you there.

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Speaker 2: So this has got everyone absolutely up in arms, all

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Speaker 2: the smaller liberals in America, the left in America going,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, he's going to go to war. He's

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Speaker 2: such a warm though, He's got a war. And look,

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Speaker 2: it is true. Donald Trump has signed an executive order

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Speaker 2: that actually says the Department of Defense will now be

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Speaker 2: called the Department of War, and that the Secretary of Defense,

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Speaker 2: Pete Haigseth, can now be referred to as the Secretary

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Speaker 2: of War. And of course, needless to say, everyone is

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Speaker 2: losing their minds. But let's just roll it back just

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Speaker 2: a tiny bit and see just how crazy or unprecedented

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Speaker 2: or out there this movie is. Well, it turns out

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Speaker 2: the Department of Defense was actually called the Department of

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Speaker 2: War for its entire existence until after World War Two.

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Speaker 2: And that was, of course, the last war in which

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Speaker 2: America actually needed to defend itself. The last time America

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Speaker 2: actually got attacked by a foreign power, foreign national entity

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Speaker 2: was Pearl Harbor. Since then, there has been no attack

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Speaker 2: on America. There's never been an attack on the American

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Speaker 2: mainland by a foreign power. The only one has been,

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Speaker 2: of course, nine to eleven by Al Qaeda, and that

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Speaker 2: was so shocking that it led America to declare a

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Speaker 2: twenty year war on terror as a result. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: when anything happens on America's home soil, it loses its shit.

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Speaker 2: It is not used to being invader. It has not

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Speaker 2: had a war on its home soil since the Civil War,

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Speaker 2: in which it was at war with itself, quite obviously,

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Speaker 2: So basically, ever since the Department of Defense has been

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Speaker 2: the Department of Defense, it hasn't been doing any defending

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Speaker 2: at all. All America's military operations have been overseas Vietnam, Iraq, Afghanistan, Korea,

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Speaker 2: So in fact, it's been a department of war all

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Speaker 2: the long. All the wars that were in had nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with America's defense, however much you supported them

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Speaker 2: more did it, So they might have had something to

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Speaker 2: do with American strategic interests, but it was not about

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Speaker 2: defending the actual homeland from an imminent invasion. So I

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Speaker 2: think all the hysteria over changing the name is well

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Speaker 2: just that hysteria, But that doesn't mean it wasn't done

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Speaker 2: for a reason. Now, firstly, the name hasn't actually officially

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Speaker 2: changed yet. All Donald Trump did with his executive orderers

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Speaker 2: say that it can also be called the Department of War,

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Speaker 2: so it's kind of like a subtitle, you know, the

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Speaker 2: Department of Defense also known as the Department of War.

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Speaker 2: And again, the Secretary of Defense can also be if

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Speaker 2: he so chooses, referred to as the Secretary of War,

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Speaker 2: which is definitely what I would choose if I was

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Speaker 2: the Secretary of Defense. Finally, I would get the respect

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Speaker 2: I deserve. What do you do, mister Lildebrand, I'm the

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Speaker 2: Secretary of War. Next question. No, that's all, thank you.

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Speaker 2: And Trump trumb will have to go to Congress if

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Speaker 2: he wants to get the name officially changed, and he will,

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Speaker 2: and maybe the name will officially change. Whatever. Again, that's

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Speaker 2: not really a biggie. Another fun thing, though, that is

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Speaker 2: a biggie. Was Trump putting out a tweet on truth

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Speaker 2: social as he does. I guess it's not a tweet

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Speaker 2: if it's on truth and not Twitter, which I refuse

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Speaker 2: to call X because I'm not going to give it

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Speaker 2: the dignity it does not deserve. Would it be a

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Speaker 2: truth if you post it on anyway, So he's put

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Speaker 2: out an image of himself as the you know, I

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Speaker 2: love the smell of napalm in the morning guy on

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Speaker 2: apocalypse now. And he's got Trump with the big aviators

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Speaker 2: and the big broad brim hat, and it's got shippocalypse now.

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Speaker 2: So it's like Chicago Apocalypse now. I'm not sure if

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Speaker 2: it really works, but anyway, whatever, And he said, you know,

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Speaker 2: now you're going to see what a Department of War

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Speaker 2: can do. We're coming for you, Chicago. And of course

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Speaker 2: this is him referring to the fact that he's already

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Speaker 2: sent the National Guard into d C. To clean up

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Speaker 2: the streets and to restore law and order again Washington

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Speaker 2: being or the district being a Democratic run city. That

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Speaker 2: Trump says is let you know, crime flourish and law

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Speaker 2: in order go to ruin. And he's long been threatening

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Speaker 2: and he's now basically changed the name of the Department

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Speaker 2: of Defense to the Department of War, just so he

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Speaker 2: can declare war on Chicago, or rather the mean streets

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Speaker 2: of Chicago, the criminals, the villains of Chicago. And of

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Speaker 2: course this has got everyone absolutely up in arms, and

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Speaker 2: you know, everyone's hysterical about it and jumping up and

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Speaker 2: down and saying, you know, this is civil war whatever,

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Speaker 2: So no need for Department of Defense because America has

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Speaker 2: never needed to defend itself from foreign attack since the

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Speaker 2: end of World War Two, and never had to do

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Speaker 2: so really since the Civil War. And now, according to

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Speaker 2: Trump's critics, he's starting a new civil war, which, ironically,

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Speaker 2: by doing so with his war department, would require a

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Speaker 2: Department of Defense. And now on to yet another just

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Speaker 2: mind blowing Trump event. And everything Trump does is kind

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Speaker 2: of mind blowing, even when he's not the one doing it.

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Speaker 2: And this is of course this letter, this note that

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Speaker 2: Trump wrote to Jeffrey Epstein for his fiftieth birthday in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and three. Now, Jeffreypstein, I'm not sure if

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Speaker 2: you're aware, sadly no longer with us. He totally took

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Speaker 2: his own life in a jail cell in New York

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Speaker 2: when the security cameras were mysteriously malfunctioning at the exact

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Speaker 2: same time that all the guards were on a break

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Speaker 2: and looking in the opposite direction. Nothing to see here, folks,

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Speaker 2: or just makes sense, just self explanatory, so we don't

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Speaker 2: need to talk about it. Ever again, except that, of course,

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Speaker 2: a lot of Trump supporters do want to keep talking

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Speaker 2: about it, and a lot of Trump haters want to

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Speaker 2: keep talking about it because the Trump supporters think that

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Speaker 2: the ebscene files, if they exist, implicate Clinton and this

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Speaker 2: sort of cabal of evil globalist billionaires and politicians who

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Speaker 2: are running this secret underage sex ring or whatever, whatever, whatever,

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Speaker 2: and all the Trump haters think that it's got Trump

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Speaker 2: all over it, and so they can use that to

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Speaker 2: pin it on him and hopefully get rid of him

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Speaker 2: through law fair instead of at the ballot box, which

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Speaker 2: they're just terrible at doing. Anyway, it turns out, according

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Speaker 2: to a bombshell report in The Wall Street Journal, that

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Speaker 2: Trump wrote a note to Jeffrey Epstein in two thousand

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Speaker 2: and three. That was written it was very bizarre, and

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Speaker 2: it was written in the form of a dialogue, like

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Speaker 2: a sort of radio play, a very bad radio play.

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Speaker 2: I have to say, it is the worst dialogue I

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Speaker 2: have ever heard. And it is presented in the shape

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Speaker 2: of a woman's body. Now, this is sort of a

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Speaker 2: drawn outline of a woman's body. Now. The Wall Street

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Speaker 2: Journal reporter on this reported the contents of it, did

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Speaker 2: not release the image did not show the image. I'm

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Speaker 2: not sure if they even had it that image. That

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Speaker 2: actual document has now been handed over as part of

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Speaker 2: this sealed book full of notes to Jeffrey Epstein for

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Speaker 2: his fiftieth birthday in two thousand and three that has

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Speaker 2: now been handed over by the estate of the late

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Speaker 2: Jeffrey Epstein. So this was written in two thousand and three. Typically,

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Speaker 2: this is before Jeffrey Epstein was charged with any offenses.

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Speaker 2: His first offense that he was charged with was in

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Speaker 2: two thousand and six, and then he did a plea

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Speaker 2: deal and sort of that all got off and a

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Speaker 2: lot of people stopped hanging around him, apart from Prince Andrew.

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Speaker 2: And then there was the big one in twenty nineteen,

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Speaker 2: which was going to just be an absolute career. En

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Speaker 2: Here's the funny thing. The head of the Oversight Committee,

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Speaker 2: the House Oversight Committee that basically subpoenaed this document that

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Speaker 2: is apparently so damaged to Donald Trump, is a Republican.

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Speaker 2: Is a Republican from Kentucky. So again Trump who was

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Speaker 2: all about, you know, I'm going to release the Epstein

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Speaker 2: files and then he said, oh, actually maybe I won't

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Speaker 2: release them, and it actually came out and said, you know what,

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Speaker 2: I had to look, I don't know why people are

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Speaker 2: so obsessed with them. They're really boring. They're actually really boring.

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Speaker 2: So you know, I'm you know, anyway, So the Trumpsters

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Speaker 2: or the trump I said no, no, no, you got to

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Speaker 2: release them. You got to release them. And so they've

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Speaker 2: come to the attention of the House Oversight Committee, which

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Speaker 2: is why this whole thing has now been made public

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Speaker 2: and can now be released and is now, if you

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Speaker 2: believe all the conspiracy theories, is now so incredibly damaging

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Speaker 2: to Donald Trump. But of course, Donald Trump has had

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Speaker 2: so many things leveled at him before. I mean, he's

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Speaker 2: had actual allegations of sexual assault leveled at him. Had

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Speaker 2: you know, he's been dragged through the law courts for

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Speaker 2: misusing campaign funds, for paying off Stormy Daniels, and again

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Speaker 2: it's been accused of actual sexual assault. And so all

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Speaker 2: of these things, or rather none of these things, stopped

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Speaker 2: him being re elected as president in twenty twenty four.

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Speaker 2: And you wonder why that is, Well, it's because Donald

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Speaker 2: Trump is incredibly good at just throwing massive amounts of noise, distraction, mud, color,

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Speaker 2: and movement at any scandal that hits him. He just

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Speaker 2: creates a massive kind of snaring, which there's so much

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Speaker 2: misinformation out there, so much color and movement, so much

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Speaker 2: to see that you end up losing sight of the

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Speaker 2: thing that is meant to actually be bringing him down,

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Speaker 2: which of course never does bring him down. And the

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Speaker 2: left and Trump's enemies, they always fall for it every

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Speaker 2: single time. And so what was it that was going

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Speaker 2: on when this letter from Donald Trump signed by Donald Trump.

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Speaker 2: They've compared the signatures, they are identical. What else was

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Speaker 2: happening in America when this all came to light? Yeah,

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Speaker 2: that's right. Donald Trump changed the name of the Defense

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Speaker 2: Department to the War Department, and everyone got so outraged,

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Speaker 2: it was all they could think about. And then of

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Speaker 2: course he declared war in Chicago, and everyone got outraged

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Speaker 2: about that. And then this little thing bobs up, another

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Speaker 2: little life boy in a giant ocean of outrage. And

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Speaker 2: you can be guaranteed, because of all that outrage about

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Speaker 2: all that other stuff, that all these other flares, all

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Speaker 2: this other flak that Trump has just masterfully put out

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Speaker 2: there knowing that this thing's going to drop, Everyone's fallen

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Speaker 2: for it. Everyone's consumed by all that outrage and that

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Speaker 2: little boy will just float away on that sea of

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Speaker 2: outrage and it'll never be seen again. Our special guest

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Speaker 2: this week is one of my favorite people in the world.

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Speaker 2: In fact, I'm surprised that we haven't had her on already.

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Speaker 2: She is my kind of political or cerebral spirit animal.

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Speaker 2: She is what you might call an ultra rationalist. She's

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Speaker 2: someone who is able to pick apart all the ridiculous

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Speaker 2: claims made by both the learning left and the reactionary

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Speaker 2: right and sort of find out what is really going

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Speaker 2: on at the heart of what a really often incredibly

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Speaker 2: contentious and complex issues. In fact, she should probably be

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Speaker 2: hosting a podcast called The Real Story. Not me, but anyway,

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Speaker 2: I've got her on. She's the founding editor of Collete,

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Speaker 2: a fantastic magazine that I suggest you all get on.

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Speaker 2: And she joins me right now. Claire Lehman, Welcome to

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Speaker 2: The Real Story. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I'm very well. Thanks for having me, Joe.

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Speaker 2: It is an absolute pleasure. You wrote an incredible article

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Speaker 2: on the weekend for The Australian which pulls apart one

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Speaker 2: of the things I usually just like to laugh and

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Speaker 2: watch the Trump circus with great delight and interesting to see. Oh,

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Speaker 2: I wonder what this thing can do. But one of

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Speaker 2: the tinmey little things that does occasionally a little thorn

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Speaker 2: in my side is Robert F. Kennedy Junior, the new

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Speaker 2: Health Secretary, who I think ninety eight percent of the

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Speaker 2: population can agree is just batshit crazy. And you just

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Speaker 2: went in with your big brain, as you often do,

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Speaker 2: and just sort of tore apart sort of not only

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Speaker 2: the so crazy beliefs he has, you know, the anti

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Speaker 2: vax stuff and everything, but also the infrastructure that has

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Speaker 2: propelled this new kind of movement on the American right,

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Speaker 2: which shares a lot of hallmarks, as these things often

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Speaker 2: do with the kind of crazy, the anti VAXX movement

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Speaker 2: of the extreme sort of hippie. But anyway, just firstly,

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Speaker 2: just talk us through what you wrote and your concerns

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Speaker 2: about the health minister of the most powerful country on Earth.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, right, So, I mean there's a few different things

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Speaker 1: going on with RFK Jr. I'm surprised actually at how

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Speaker 1: many mums I meet in Australia who say, oh, I

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Speaker 1: agree with RFK Junior about toxins and food and things

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Speaker 1: like that. I'm like, yeah, I wouldn't be going there

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Speaker 1: but yeah, yeah, So he has this broad appeal. Now,

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Speaker 1: I think it's you have to understand him from the

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Speaker 1: point of view of his troubled history. So he very

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Speaker 1: early on became a user of hard drugs. Now, I

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Speaker 1: don't necessarily have anything against people who are users of

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Speaker 1: hard drugs, but I think what has happened with k

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Speaker 1: Junior is after fifteen or fourteen years of being addicted

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Speaker 1: to heroin, he got out of that and went into

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Speaker 1: environmental activism and he built a career out of attention

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Speaker 1: to what we would call in moral psychology purity. He

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Speaker 1: worked for a conservation organization called the River Keeper, so

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Speaker 1: it was all about pollution being dumped in the Hudson River.

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Speaker 1: As an environmental activist, yeah yeah. And he's a lawyer,

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Speaker 1: and he successfully lobbied to get Indian Point Nuclear facility

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Speaker 1: in New York shut down, and part of the process

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Speaker 1: for that was scaring everyone around Indian Point. He said

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Speaker 1: it could be a site for a terrorist attack. He

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Speaker 1: said that all of the energy and electricity produced by

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Speaker 1: Indian Point could be replaced by renewable energy. Out not

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Speaker 1: to be the case, and that after Indian Point was

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Speaker 1: closed down, emissions in the New York area increased substantially.

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Speaker 2: But again, it's it's that uncanny thing, isn't it, where

430
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: someone who ends up being a sort of lieutenant for

431
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:17,399
Speaker 2: the Trump administration actually has so much in common with

432
00:27:17,960 --> 00:27:21,359
Speaker 2: the left, like that anti nuclear hysteria for example. But anyway,

433
00:27:21,400 --> 00:27:22,080
Speaker 2: you can carry on.

434
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:25,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing. But so when he came

435
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: onto the scene and sort of joined the MAGA movement,

436
00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:32,439
Speaker 1: I was quite surprised because I was saying to conservatives like,

437
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:35,719
Speaker 1: do you really know who this guy is? He's of

438
00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 1: the left. And when I say of the left, I

439
00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,959
Speaker 1: mean the sort of the hippie left he you know,

440
00:27:43,080 --> 00:27:47,120
Speaker 1: after he got involved in environmental activism, he soon got

441
00:27:47,160 --> 00:27:52,400
Speaker 1: on to the anti vax bandwagon alongside Andrew Wakefield, the

442
00:27:52,560 --> 00:27:54,760
Speaker 1: disgraced doctor from the UK who came.

443
00:27:54,640 --> 00:27:57,560
Speaker 2: Up with this article. I said, that was retracted.

444
00:27:58,160 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a study of just twelve kids, tiny sample size.

445
00:28:01,640 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 1: I'm not sure how it even got published in the Lancet.

446
00:28:04,720 --> 00:28:07,640
Speaker 1: But they found out in retrospect that the data had

447
00:28:07,680 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 1: been fabricated or manipulated in some way anyway, And so

448
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,800
Speaker 1: that started this whole scare around the measles, mumps and

449
00:28:15,880 --> 00:28:20,080
Speaker 1: rubella vaccine and the linked to autism.

450
00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:23,720
Speaker 2: That's right. Trump has charged RFK with finding out what's

451
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,640
Speaker 2: causing all this increase in autism. Yeah, I know, it's

452
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:28,680
Speaker 2: the measles, mumps, revella vaccine.

453
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:31,800
Speaker 1: And if you so, if you go to RFK and

454
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:36,240
Speaker 1: people like Andrew Wakefield, that whole group of activists, it's

455
00:28:36,359 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 1: all about purity. How can we make our food more pure,

456
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 1: get rid of toxins, make it organic, get rid of

457
00:28:43,400 --> 00:28:47,800
Speaker 1: any kind of pollution. And now there's nothing inherently wrong

458
00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:50,800
Speaker 1: with that unless you start taking it to extremes and

459
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:57,640
Speaker 1: unless you start ignoring the evidence around certain foods, certain interventions,

460
00:28:57,640 --> 00:29:01,200
Speaker 1: particularly life saving medical interventions, actually being safe. And now

461
00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:07,600
Speaker 1: there's been very large scale studies looking at millions of

462
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,600
Speaker 1: children who have received the measles, MOMPS and rubella vaccine,

463
00:29:11,840 --> 00:29:17,680
Speaker 1: and there's no correlation, let alone causation between the development

464
00:29:17,720 --> 00:29:22,200
Speaker 1: of autism and vaccination. We know that autism is something

465
00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: like eighty percent heritable, and there are probably some environmental factors.

466
00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: But the reason why this conspiracy theory has sort of

467
00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: developed is, you know, when people go to the doctor

468
00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:40,400
Speaker 1: and get their kids vaccinated, it's sort of like around

469
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: the same time that they might get picked up for autism.

470
00:29:43,320 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: So there's this sort of temporal alignment where people think

471
00:29:46,560 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 1: that one leads to the other. Anyway, So the autism

472
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:56,400
Speaker 1: vaccination link has been disproved. So it's a terrible occurrence

473
00:29:56,520 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: that Trump has now charged this guy with getting to

474
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: the bottom of this so called autism epidemic. Now, if

475
00:30:05,920 --> 00:30:11,080
Speaker 1: you look at data around autism, it's a complicated question,

476
00:30:11,160 --> 00:30:14,479
Speaker 1: and of course there should be very thorough and detailed

477
00:30:14,520 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 1: investigation into it, but you have to you have to

478
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 1: first ask the question, has our diagnostic criteria changed?

479
00:30:21,200 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: That's my first and I have to say with kids,

480
00:30:24,120 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: I know, with my family generally, I mean, autism is

481
00:30:27,400 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 2: kind of everywhere. You do see it everywhere, But is

482
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:33,760
Speaker 2: that just because what we now call autism, Yeah, would

483
00:30:33,840 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 2: otherwise have been this kid's just a bit different, or

484
00:30:37,360 --> 00:30:40,320
Speaker 2: you know, this is just one of his behavioral quirks.

485
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:43,840
Speaker 1: Well, in my lifetime, I remember being a child and

486
00:30:44,280 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 1: going to a special school. My mum worked as a

487
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:51,080
Speaker 1: speech therapist as special school and autism meant something. Autism

488
00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,080
Speaker 1: meant that you couldn't go to a normal school, and

489
00:30:53,360 --> 00:30:57,480
Speaker 1: you had problems with daily functioning and you were sometimes nonverbal,

490
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 1: and sometimes like quite challenging your behavior. That's what autism

491
00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 1: meant to me when.

492
00:31:02,560 --> 00:31:06,240
Speaker 2: I was That was my brother as well, that's right.

493
00:31:06,920 --> 00:31:10,040
Speaker 1: And now like I see not so much in Australia,

494
00:31:10,080 --> 00:31:15,320
Speaker 1: but I see American friends describe someone who is slightly

495
00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: more analytical as autistic. What like I've even been described

496
00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:28,120
Speaker 1: myself as autistic. It's been this massive dilution. And you know,

497
00:31:28,160 --> 00:31:30,120
Speaker 1: it's not one of these things where we can take

498
00:31:30,120 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 1: a blood test and diagnose someone. It's the diagnosis of

499
00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 1: diagnosis of autism is rather subjective. It's like just behavior,

500
00:31:40,880 --> 00:31:43,200
Speaker 1: isn't it exactly? And you know, we just go through

501
00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: a checklist and if that if that checklist changes over

502
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: time and becomes more expansive, then of course you're going

503
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: to capture more people under the umbrella. And so before

504
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: we start trying to work out what is the cause

505
00:31:55,200 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: of the so called autism epidemic, we first have to

506
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 1: investigate whether there really is and atism epidemic and I would.

507
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 2: Measure it, define it. Yeah, okay, firstly, firstly, we need

508
00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:07,280
Speaker 2: to define what is autism what are we trying to

509
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 2: find the cause of before we can actually look at that.

510
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,480
Speaker 2: So how so this again brings us full circle too.

511
00:32:14,760 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: And again, not to labor the point, but this sort

512
00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:21,360
Speaker 2: of obsession with purity and everything that RFK under Trump

513
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,040
Speaker 2: has put forward is exactly the sort of thing you

514
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:26,200
Speaker 2: would see, you know, among hippies and Barren Bay who

515
00:32:26,240 --> 00:32:28,480
Speaker 2: don't like fluoride in the water, who have the same

516
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 2: anti VAX's tendencies. But anyway, so he has now been

517
00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,200
Speaker 2: charged with finding out what is causing autism and putting,

518
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:40,360
Speaker 2: as you say, the cart before the horse. There's suggestion,

519
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,960
Speaker 2: and he's obsessed with this. You know this more processed

520
00:32:43,000 --> 00:32:46,160
Speaker 2: foods or you know, whatever it be, you know, toxins,

521
00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:49,480
Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. What are the implications for this

522
00:32:49,520 --> 00:32:52,080
Speaker 2: more broadly, because he's in charge of a huge amount

523
00:32:52,120 --> 00:32:55,920
Speaker 2: of not just health infrastructure, but regulatory power where he

524
00:32:55,920 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: can regulate you know, medications, pharmaceuticals, you know what is

525
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 2: or isn't authorized. I mean, it's how worried are you

526
00:33:05,320 --> 00:33:06,600
Speaker 2: about the invocation? Yeah?

527
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,000
Speaker 1: I think it's I think it's really bad. I think

528
00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,160
Speaker 1: it's a very serious development. Look, I don't know the

529
00:33:12,160 --> 00:33:15,600
Speaker 1: ins and outs of regulation in the United States, but

530
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,720
Speaker 1: we can see from the just the sort of growth

531
00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:23,680
Speaker 1: of the anti VAXX movement that he is having an

532
00:33:23,680 --> 00:33:26,880
Speaker 1: influence and he's having an influence on bureaucrats at the

533
00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 1: state level. So in Florida, the chief Medical Officer, alongside

534
00:33:33,440 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: the governor, Ronda Santis, has just announced that they're winding

535
00:33:36,480 --> 00:33:43,000
Speaker 1: back all vaccine requirements. So in most developed countries, to

536
00:33:43,040 --> 00:33:45,800
Speaker 1: go to school, you need to have a regular schedule

537
00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 1: of vaccines, usually for things like measles, polio, and you

538
00:33:52,080 --> 00:33:55,680
Speaker 1: know a few other diseases that we've eradicated thanks to immunization.

539
00:33:56,600 --> 00:34:00,160
Speaker 1: And they've they announced about a week ago that they

540
00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:03,120
Speaker 1: were getting rid of these requirements. Now, the uptake rate

541
00:34:03,240 --> 00:34:06,880
Speaker 1: in Florida is already eighty eight percent. To get to

542
00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 1: hurt immunity for some foot for meaesels, you have to

543
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:12,880
Speaker 1: be over something like ninety five percent, So they're below

544
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 1: hurd immunity thresholds anyway, So if they're getting rid of

545
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,719
Speaker 1: the requirements, it's very likely that they will have some

546
00:34:19,800 --> 00:34:24,080
Speaker 1: measles outbreaks and then that will you know, have knock

547
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,279
Speaker 1: on effects where tourists coming to Florida might take measles

548
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,279
Speaker 1: back home to wherever they're visiting from.

549
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,319
Speaker 2: This is I mean the interesting thing. Sorry, but I

550
00:34:32,320 --> 00:34:35,560
Speaker 2: mean someone once said it was the line I really

551
00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,080
Speaker 2: liked is traditions and solutions to problems that we forgot existed.

552
00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:42,120
Speaker 2: And it's very much like that with vaccination. They've been

553
00:34:42,120 --> 00:34:45,640
Speaker 2: so successful that people have forgotten just how horrific it

554
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,920
Speaker 2: is to have a polio outbreak or a measles outbreak,

555
00:34:50,000 --> 00:34:52,520
Speaker 2: or go off a bit of smallpox outbreak. Yeah, and

556
00:34:52,560 --> 00:34:54,480
Speaker 2: so they think, oh, well, we don't need to get vaccine.

557
00:34:54,520 --> 00:34:56,719
Speaker 2: You know, the vaccines don't work because the vaccines have

558
00:34:56,800 --> 00:35:00,520
Speaker 2: worked so well that they've eliminated the problem that people

559
00:35:00,560 --> 00:35:01,560
Speaker 2: have forgotten that we had.

560
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: They're victims of their own success. And you know, people

561
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 1: I've seen people online saying, oh, well, measles is not

562
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:11,719
Speaker 1: that bad anyway, it's not the plague. And it's true,

563
00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:14,279
Speaker 1: you know, it's not like you get measles and you

564
00:35:14,320 --> 00:35:18,399
Speaker 1: automatically die. But there will be increased preventable deaths. There

565
00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: will be young kids who could have not died die

566
00:35:22,640 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: from measles and not you know, it's not just the

567
00:35:26,160 --> 00:35:28,640
Speaker 1: deaths that are an issue. But if you look at

568
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,000
Speaker 1: charts that show the amount of people who got sick

569
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:36,520
Speaker 1: with measles before widespread vaccination, lots of like just about

570
00:35:36,560 --> 00:35:39,839
Speaker 1: every all kids would get it, and that's time off work,

571
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 1: that's time sick. You know, that's that's overloading the hospital, lots.

572
00:35:43,800 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 2: Of productivity, that's the idea. That's right, it's and it's

573
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,279
Speaker 2: and again when you have people on the extremes, and

574
00:35:51,320 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 2: it's it's little wonder that, you know, the extreme left

575
00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,280
Speaker 2: the extreme right end up married on so many issues

576
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: because when you have people who are so extreme, so

577
00:35:58,760 --> 00:36:02,799
Speaker 2: one eyed about its obsessed particular issue, things like that

578
00:36:02,840 --> 00:36:07,560
Speaker 2: sort of slightly complex health benefit that you're talking about

579
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: completely eludes them. And we saw this a lot during

580
00:36:10,200 --> 00:36:12,160
Speaker 2: COVID wich. I'm always relocking to bring up because it's

581
00:36:12,160 --> 00:36:18,200
Speaker 2: so annoying, just bedeviling argument where people on both sides. Again,

582
00:36:18,480 --> 00:36:21,440
Speaker 2: it had to be one thing or the other, and

583
00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,560
Speaker 2: anything that was slightly nuanced, anything that was like, you know,

584
00:36:24,600 --> 00:36:26,680
Speaker 2: people say, oh, no, we have to all lock ourselves

585
00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,879
Speaker 2: in the basement forever and ever, we're all going to die,

586
00:36:29,120 --> 00:36:31,719
Speaker 2: And had other people saying, oh, you know, the vaccines

587
00:36:31,960 --> 00:36:34,680
Speaker 2: don't provide one hundred percent guarantee that you're one hundred

588
00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:36,560
Speaker 2: percent never get it, one hundred percent never passed on

589
00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:38,400
Speaker 2: one hundred percent of the time. Therefore, we're just not

590
00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 2: going to take them. And you've just got those sort

591
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:45,560
Speaker 2: of bonkers' views on both sides. And RFK is kind.

592
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 1: Of like a capitalizing on that.

593
00:36:47,040 --> 00:36:48,720
Speaker 2: It's capitalizing on it, and there is people.

594
00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:53,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he's definitely capitalizing on the degraded trust that

595
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,160
Speaker 1: has arisen out of the COVID, out of the failures

596
00:36:57,200 --> 00:36:59,720
Speaker 1: of COVID and the failures of the response to COVID.

597
00:36:59,760 --> 00:37:01,840
Speaker 1: I mean, and in my piece that I write for

598
00:37:01,840 --> 00:37:04,200
Speaker 1: The Australian and I pointed out that you know a

599
00:37:04,200 --> 00:37:10,440
Speaker 1: lot of conservatives, for legitimate reasons, are now suspicious of

600
00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:14,239
Speaker 1: the medical the health establishment, the medical establishment. They see

601
00:37:14,360 --> 00:37:19,800
Speaker 1: vaccine mandates as an authoritarian position because they were told

602
00:37:19,960 --> 00:37:24,280
Speaker 1: that getting a COVID vaccine would prevent them from getting COVID.

603
00:37:24,320 --> 00:37:26,839
Speaker 1: They got the vaccine, then they got COVID, and so

604
00:37:26,880 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: there were these failures during COVID, particularly around communication, not

605
00:37:31,760 --> 00:37:37,120
Speaker 1: communicating enough, nuance, not communicating enough, uncertainty and intellectual humility,

606
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,200
Speaker 1: and they have sort of, I guess you could say,

607
00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:45,200
Speaker 1: those mistakes are now coming to buy the medical establishment

608
00:37:45,239 --> 00:37:46,400
Speaker 1: in the butt.

609
00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,160
Speaker 2: And it's again it's a salesy talent. It's one eye

610
00:37:49,560 --> 00:37:54,399
Speaker 2: and again another uncanny example is the same thing has

611
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: happened with climate change, where you have people who where

612
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,520
Speaker 2: the science is real and it does point to a

613
00:37:59,560 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 2: really big and complex problem that we need to deal with,

614
00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 2: but when you have catastrophists on the side saying, oh,

615
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:08,880
Speaker 2: it's you know, it's never going to rain again. Yeah,

616
00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:12,640
Speaker 2: and then it rains and people say, well, that was bullshit,

617
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:14,880
Speaker 2: so the whole lot must be bullshit, and so it

618
00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 2: gets right out. But so again you have it's almost

619
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:23,040
Speaker 2: dare I say it. I think in both cases it

620
00:38:23,120 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: is intellectuals or intellectual elites academics who are talking down

621
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:32,200
Speaker 2: to ordinary people and saying, well, they're too stupid to

622
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,719
Speaker 2: actually grasp the complexity, so we'll just tell them this

623
00:38:36,200 --> 00:38:39,040
Speaker 2: to scare them into doing what we want them to do,

624
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 2: and then that will solve the problem. And in fact

625
00:38:41,680 --> 00:38:44,640
Speaker 2: what you do is ending up creating a complete collapse

626
00:38:44,719 --> 00:38:50,160
Speaker 2: of trust in academic institutions, political institutions, governmental institutions, and

627
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,200
Speaker 2: people just say, well, you just you've been lying to

628
00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,000
Speaker 2: me about this, so what else are you lying to

629
00:38:54,040 --> 00:38:54,440
Speaker 2: me about?

630
00:38:54,960 --> 00:38:58,280
Speaker 1: I think that's spot on. It's a combination of talking

631
00:38:58,320 --> 00:39:02,480
Speaker 1: to people through slow logans, and then also the use

632
00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:06,400
Speaker 1: of noble lies, so actually lying because you think the

633
00:39:06,440 --> 00:39:11,040
Speaker 1: outcome of lying to the public is going to be preferable,

634
00:39:12,080 --> 00:39:15,840
Speaker 1: and it happens on a lot of topics unfortunately.

635
00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:18,359
Speaker 2: And inevitably. I mean again it's a cliche because it's true.

636
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:19,799
Speaker 2: You know, it's never the crime, it's the cover up

637
00:39:19,800 --> 00:39:22,839
Speaker 2: that gets here. But inevitably, whatever sugar hit you get

638
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:26,240
Speaker 2: from that, inevitably it all comes sort of falling apart.

639
00:39:26,280 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: And we saw that but again and again. Not to

640
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:30,000
Speaker 2: traumatize people by going back to go, but all these

641
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:33,520
Speaker 2: long term you know, social impacts, kids disappearing from the

642
00:39:33,520 --> 00:39:36,239
Speaker 2: school system, you know, the economic crisis that we're going

643
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 2: through now, and again the complete collapse in trust and

644
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,920
Speaker 2: governmental institutions, people now being more anti vas than they

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Speaker 2: ever were before, and people in poor old Victoria, which

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00:39:47,480 --> 00:39:49,960
Speaker 2: I think is still a failed state that is trying

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00:39:50,000 --> 00:39:54,879
Speaker 2: to sort of recover. But and it's I think that's why, well,

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00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,440
Speaker 2: I know, it's why your role is so fascinating and

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00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 2: illumin and where I think as well, because you do

650
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 2: just get in there and and sort of say right

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00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 2: and pull apart what is actually going on in these complex.

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00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: Issues try to sometimes.

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00:40:12,040 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 2: Is it lonely? It's lonely in the middle. Have you

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00:40:17,719 --> 00:40:20,120
Speaker 2: go at the extreme left and the extreme right and say,

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00:40:20,160 --> 00:40:22,600
Speaker 2: you know what, you're both crazy. You are picking a

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00:40:22,640 --> 00:40:25,120
Speaker 2: fight with the last people you want to pick a

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00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: fight with.

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00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,359
Speaker 1: It can be, but I think you get used to

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00:40:28,400 --> 00:40:35,120
Speaker 1: it after a while. And it's fun being unpredictable, I think,

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00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,839
Speaker 1: and people and people never really knowing where to pin

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00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: you or pigeonhole you.

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00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:43,160
Speaker 2: I like that. That is why you are my spirit animal,

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Speaker 2: Claire even thank you so much for joining us O

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Speaker 2: the Real.

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Speaker 1: Story, Thanks Joe Pleasure.

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00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,399
Speaker 2: And that is all we have time for this week.

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00:40:52,520 --> 00:40:55,120
Speaker 2: Make sure you leave us a review or rating or

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00:40:55,160 --> 00:40:57,200
Speaker 2: whatever it is to you young people do with technology

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00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,000
Speaker 2: and slip us a line if you are so inclined

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00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:04,080
Speaker 2: The Real Story at Novapodcasts dot com dot au or

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00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: you can slide into my dms on the grid that

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00:41:07,239 --> 00:41:11,640
Speaker 2: is at Joe Underscore Hildebrand on Instagram. And of course

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00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:13,520
Speaker 2: you can read my columns in all the News Corp

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00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 2: papers or all the good ones anyway every Monday and Saturday.

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00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 2: And if that's not enough for you, I'll see you

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Speaker 2: next week. Cheers,