1 00:00:06,040 --> 00:00:07,960 Speaker 1: Welcome to Fear and Greed Q and A where we 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:11,960 Speaker 1: ask and answer questions about business, investing, economics, politics and more. 3 00:00:12,039 --> 00:00:15,600 Speaker 1: I'm Sean Aylmer. Small businesses in Australia are changing. For 4 00:00:15,680 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 1: one thing, there's two point six million of them, employing 5 00:00:18,239 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 1: five point four million people and contributing five hundred and 6 00:00:22,000 --> 00:00:25,159 Speaker 1: ninety billion dollars to our GDPM. But the reasons for 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:28,160 Speaker 1: starting a business are evolving, with more people looking for 8 00:00:28,200 --> 00:00:32,360 Speaker 1: the autonomy in financial independence it gives them. Success looks 9 00:00:32,400 --> 00:00:35,040 Speaker 1: different to every founder, but surprisingly almost a third of 10 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,920 Speaker 1: all entrepreneurs don't have an endgame in mind. Hungered Sewn 11 00:00:39,080 --> 00:00:42,120 Speaker 1: is Managing Director Australia and New Zealand and global Chief 12 00:00:42,159 --> 00:00:44,880 Speaker 1: Strategy Officer at Zero, which is a trivic supporter of 13 00:00:44,920 --> 00:00:49,640 Speaker 1: this podcast. Hungered, you are talking my story here. Welcome 14 00:00:49,680 --> 00:00:51,479 Speaker 1: to Fear and Greed, Sean. 15 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: A pleasure to be here and you know I was 16 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:57,000 Speaker 2: going to be. My first question is for fear and greed, 17 00:00:58,200 --> 00:00:59,840 Speaker 2: which archetypes you put yourself? 18 00:01:00,880 --> 00:01:04,800 Speaker 1: Right? Well, how about we leave that question hanging. We'll 19 00:01:04,840 --> 00:01:06,680 Speaker 1: explore the archetypes and I'll tell you at the end. 20 00:01:06,680 --> 00:01:08,200 Speaker 2: How about that sounds good? Right? 21 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:11,000 Speaker 1: So if you recently you've published your It's your Business 22 00:01:11,000 --> 00:01:14,240 Speaker 1: report and in it to find three different types of founders. 23 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: So this is what I've got to pick. I know 24 00:01:16,080 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: what I am right from the get go. The three 25 00:01:18,920 --> 00:01:24,880 Speaker 1: of them lifestyle entrepreneurs, ambitious achievers, situational founders, goes through them. 26 00:01:24,959 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: Let's start with lifestyle entrepreneurs. Who are they? 27 00:01:28,200 --> 00:01:31,199 Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean hopefully the names are somewhat self explanatory. 28 00:01:31,280 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 2: So forty seven percent of Australian small businesses would classify 29 00:01:36,040 --> 00:01:40,319 Speaker 2: themselves as a lifestyle entrepreneur. They want to architect a 30 00:01:40,400 --> 00:01:42,399 Speaker 2: lifestyle that works for them. I want to run a 31 00:01:42,400 --> 00:01:44,640 Speaker 2: small business. I want to have a business, but let 32 00:01:44,720 --> 00:01:46,280 Speaker 2: them do the other things they love, which might be 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:49,640 Speaker 2: spend time with family, traveling, whatever. It might be. Your 34 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:53,760 Speaker 2: second category, ambitious achievers. The name should give you some 35 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:58,360 Speaker 2: guidance about thirty percent of these. They're really business owners 36 00:01:58,360 --> 00:02:01,520 Speaker 2: that are trying to usually form legacy. Can they build 37 00:02:01,520 --> 00:02:04,520 Speaker 2: a lasting business? Are they looking to go global? Are 38 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,480 Speaker 2: they really looking to set a mark in an industry 39 00:02:07,520 --> 00:02:11,000 Speaker 2: that they really care about? And then you've got situational founders, 40 00:02:11,080 --> 00:02:14,280 Speaker 2: which make up the other twenty three percent. And you know, 41 00:02:14,600 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 2: when I think about this is often as an immigrant myself, 42 00:02:17,440 --> 00:02:19,960 Speaker 2: I know many of these people. They come from another country, 43 00:02:21,160 --> 00:02:23,200 Speaker 2: maybe they have no option, and they've got to start 44 00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:25,640 Speaker 2: a business, and that is their way of making a 45 00:02:25,680 --> 00:02:28,280 Speaker 2: living and then growing from it. The one thing I 46 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,080 Speaker 2: think that's quite important is people don't stay in these archetypes. 47 00:02:33,240 --> 00:02:36,520 Speaker 2: It's not like a single minded point, right. So some 48 00:02:36,520 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 2: people might start a lifestyle business, see the impact they're 49 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:44,320 Speaker 2: having and become an ambitious achiever and look to a 50 00:02:44,360 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 2: scale maybe more than they ever thought they were going to. 51 00:02:46,720 --> 00:02:48,959 Speaker 2: So I think that's an important thing around these archetypes. 52 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:52,200 Speaker 1: It's fluid. So if I look at those archetypes for myself, 53 00:02:52,320 --> 00:02:54,880 Speaker 1: I think I'm sixty or seventy percent one of them, 54 00:02:55,600 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: and then kind of fifteen percent the other two, which 55 00:02:59,160 --> 00:03:02,799 Speaker 1: is interesting. I'm sure all these things play into it. 56 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: What is so many people start a business? The thing is, 57 00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 1: when I started business, and I've got three small businesses, 58 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: including Fear and Greed, people kept talking to me about 59 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 1: your exit strategy before you even got into it, your 60 00:03:17,360 --> 00:03:21,840 Speaker 1: end game, and vaguely I've thought about that. You know, 61 00:03:21,840 --> 00:03:23,760 Speaker 1: oh yes, I'm a bias. It'd be fine so much 62 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:26,240 Speaker 1: for you. But really I haven't given it much thought, 63 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:30,960 Speaker 1: and your report suggests that many people don't actually have endgames. 64 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:33,960 Speaker 2: That's right. I think actually two important points, right, So 65 00:03:34,040 --> 00:03:36,520 Speaker 2: one is that thirty one percent don't have an endgame, 66 00:03:36,920 --> 00:03:40,440 Speaker 2: and up to forty nine percent don't have long term goals. 67 00:03:40,720 --> 00:03:43,800 Speaker 2: So I think there's I think both are interesting. One. 68 00:03:43,880 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 2: I'm with you, Shan, and like, how often does someone 69 00:03:45,760 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 2: where they're sunning a business have to instantly go and 70 00:03:48,280 --> 00:03:50,640 Speaker 2: I want to exit, I want to sell it, I 71 00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:53,360 Speaker 2: want to hand it down to my children maybe, or 72 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 2: I want to like just let it run to the 73 00:03:55,200 --> 00:03:57,920 Speaker 2: ground and I'll retire. That's a hard thing to think 74 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 2: about straight away. However, long term goals, I think is 75 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,120 Speaker 2: something that's more fascinating to me that forty nine percent 76 00:04:04,200 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 2: don't have long term goals, because even if you don't 77 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:11,800 Speaker 2: know your final final destination, knowing where you're trying to 78 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:14,600 Speaker 2: head is so critical when you're building a small business. 79 00:04:15,160 --> 00:04:16,960 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think of private equity firms, which 80 00:04:16,960 --> 00:04:19,560 Speaker 1: you're talking about larger businesses, they all go in with 81 00:04:19,600 --> 00:04:22,040 Speaker 1: an exit strategy. They're thinking the endgame all the time. 82 00:04:22,080 --> 00:04:24,799 Speaker 1: And maybe there's a lesson in that for this smaller businesses. 83 00:04:25,520 --> 00:04:27,800 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think to your point, they need to know 84 00:04:28,279 --> 00:04:30,440 Speaker 2: they're in that game, right. You've got to know how 85 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:32,200 Speaker 2: I'm going to get out, Otherwise I don't know how 86 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:34,880 Speaker 2: I'm going to make my return. And I would say 87 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,039 Speaker 2: the reality is that this happens at all sizes of businesses. 88 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 2: Of course we're talking small businesses, but large companies go 89 00:04:40,720 --> 00:04:46,599 Speaker 2: through this when market environments change, when ownership structures change. 90 00:04:46,920 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 2: There might be new shareholders, there might be a new 91 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:52,039 Speaker 2: executive team, they're going to rethink that. I think the 92 00:04:52,120 --> 00:04:55,640 Speaker 2: hard thing for a small business is they can't just 93 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:57,760 Speaker 2: bring in an external party to help them think through 94 00:04:57,800 --> 00:05:00,520 Speaker 2: that one. It is their small business and they've got 95 00:05:00,560 --> 00:05:03,320 Speaker 2: to think about it. And if you are like I understand, 96 00:05:03,400 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 2: if you're and greed is a little bit, you have 97 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,600 Speaker 2: multiple small business owners. They all might have a slightly 98 00:05:08,640 --> 00:05:10,560 Speaker 2: different view of the endgame. 99 00:05:11,200 --> 00:05:13,440 Speaker 1: How important is this to get it right? What's the 100 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,880 Speaker 1: opportunity cost? If you don't think maybe not in game, 101 00:05:17,920 --> 00:05:19,320 Speaker 1: but long term goals certainly. 102 00:05:19,760 --> 00:05:22,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I think long term goals are important for a 103 00:05:22,360 --> 00:05:24,400 Speaker 2: key reason I think for all sides of businesses, but 104 00:05:24,440 --> 00:05:28,520 Speaker 2: small businesses in particular, it is it's your north star. 105 00:05:28,720 --> 00:05:31,880 Speaker 2: You want to know where you're going. And if again, 106 00:05:31,880 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 2: if you're in that lifestyle entrepreneur or if you're in 107 00:05:34,120 --> 00:05:38,280 Speaker 2: that ambitious achiever or situational founder, that primary goal might 108 00:05:38,320 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 2: be slightly different. So if you're a situational founder and 109 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:41,960 Speaker 2: you want to make just enough money so you can 110 00:05:42,279 --> 00:05:46,159 Speaker 2: feel like you've got stability you can support your family, 111 00:05:46,240 --> 00:05:49,880 Speaker 2: whatever it might be, or broader long term goals, then 112 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,320 Speaker 2: anchoring on what that minimum threshold of income is is 113 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:56,760 Speaker 2: critical to thinking about your business model. How many customers 114 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:58,680 Speaker 2: do you need, how are you going to get those customers, 115 00:05:58,760 --> 00:06:02,120 Speaker 2: what do you charge them, and what's appropriate. If you're 116 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:06,080 Speaker 2: a lifestyle founder and you end up building a business 117 00:06:06,080 --> 00:06:08,000 Speaker 2: that doesn't give you the lifestyle goal you set out 118 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 2: to achieve, you're not going to feel as content. So 119 00:06:11,400 --> 00:06:13,560 Speaker 2: I think that's why having those long term goals is 120 00:06:13,680 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 2: really important because then you can work back from them. 121 00:06:17,320 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 2: And often, if you're a small business owner, you're really 122 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 2: passionate about one or two different parts of your business 123 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 2: and you want to make sure you're creating enough of 124 00:06:25,680 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: the right decisions that actually allows you to do the 125 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 2: thing you love and not regret. Kind of going on 126 00:06:31,839 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 2: this limb because it's hard to start a small business. 127 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:36,159 Speaker 1: How do you do it? I mean, what you're saying 128 00:06:36,360 --> 00:06:39,400 Speaker 1: all makes sense, right? Can you do it on your own? 129 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 1: You better to find an advisor? How do you do it? Yeah? 130 00:06:44,000 --> 00:06:48,480 Speaker 2: I'd say two main bits of advice I would give one. 131 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:50,560 Speaker 2: You do have to be honest with yourself and you 132 00:06:50,600 --> 00:06:52,839 Speaker 2: do have to have some alone thinking time, I would say. 133 00:06:53,839 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 2: And I would say, in a hierarchy of things to 134 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:01,320 Speaker 2: think about, start with number one. It's we call the report. 135 00:07:01,400 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 2: It's your business for a reason. It's highly personal. So 136 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 2: if you don't first start with what's critically important to 137 00:07:09,240 --> 00:07:13,400 Speaker 2: you as a human being and as an individual, you 138 00:07:13,440 --> 00:07:17,400 Speaker 2: can kind of forget about the rest. Then I would say, 139 00:07:17,560 --> 00:07:21,480 Speaker 2: what is your financial set of goals? Like again, if 140 00:07:21,480 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 2: you want to be a really large company, you're going 141 00:07:23,600 --> 00:07:25,880 Speaker 2: to structure it differently. If you want to get funding, 142 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:27,680 Speaker 2: you're going to structure it differently. If you want a list. 143 00:07:27,680 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 2: At some point you'll think about these things differently and 144 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,760 Speaker 2: how much scale and investment you might need. And then 145 00:07:34,840 --> 00:07:36,600 Speaker 2: you know, last, but not least, you might have some 146 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 2: views about how you want to run the business, what 147 00:07:39,000 --> 00:07:40,960 Speaker 2: values you might want, what kind of people you want 148 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:43,120 Speaker 2: working for you, but I would see it in a 149 00:07:43,200 --> 00:07:47,520 Speaker 2: room first, and be brutally honest. Don't write the things 150 00:07:47,560 --> 00:07:50,160 Speaker 2: that you think someone else wants to hear. You are 151 00:07:50,200 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 2: the person that has to get out of bed every 152 00:07:51,800 --> 00:07:55,200 Speaker 2: day and run this business or the people, so be 153 00:07:55,240 --> 00:07:57,800 Speaker 2: brutally honest. And then I think to your point, schean 154 00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:02,120 Speaker 2: get advice, and that can be professional advice. It could 155 00:08:02,160 --> 00:08:04,000 Speaker 2: be an accounter and bookkeeper that can help make sure 156 00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:05,960 Speaker 2: you structure the business in the right way so you 157 00:08:06,000 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 2: can achieve those goals. Could be legal advice. It could 158 00:08:09,520 --> 00:08:12,600 Speaker 2: be other founders who are going to tell you some 159 00:08:12,760 --> 00:08:17,400 Speaker 2: of the pitfalls, challenges, things to look out for ahead. 160 00:08:18,320 --> 00:08:20,880 Speaker 2: And I would definitely say don't try and go it alone. 161 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,960 Speaker 2: There are plenty of people in the community that will 162 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:27,240 Speaker 2: help you. But I think the only way, because you're 163 00:08:27,240 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: going to get contradictory advice, I'll tell you that right 164 00:08:29,400 --> 00:08:31,480 Speaker 2: now as well. And so the only way that I 165 00:08:31,520 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 2: think you can help make sure you use that advice 166 00:08:34,480 --> 00:08:37,360 Speaker 2: is you have clarity on your end goal and you're 167 00:08:37,400 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 2: brutally honest about what those things are important to you. 168 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:42,440 Speaker 1: I'm good, I'm not sure that I'm enjoying this conversation 169 00:08:42,480 --> 00:08:45,960 Speaker 1: at the moment, we'll move on the other thing the 170 00:08:46,000 --> 00:08:51,240 Speaker 1: report talks about is kind of the legislative environment that 171 00:08:51,760 --> 00:08:57,319 Speaker 1: a business operates in. What does I mean? It identifies 172 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:00,839 Speaker 1: priorities for governments that would help sm succeed. What are 173 00:09:00,880 --> 00:09:01,480 Speaker 1: some of those? 174 00:09:02,080 --> 00:09:04,120 Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the biggest things we talk about, think 175 00:09:04,160 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 2: about it as a business ourselves, is how do you 176 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:10,240 Speaker 2: give time back to small business owners? It's the thing 177 00:09:10,280 --> 00:09:13,079 Speaker 2: they have the least of and it's the thing that's 178 00:09:13,120 --> 00:09:17,360 Speaker 2: most important. And so when we think about regulation or 179 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:20,600 Speaker 2: the things that government and industry bodies, and we believe 180 00:09:20,600 --> 00:09:22,720 Speaker 2: we have a part to play where a service provider 181 00:09:22,800 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 2: to small businesses, which is how do we think about 182 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 2: all the things that can give you that time back? 183 00:09:27,840 --> 00:09:30,480 Speaker 2: And so, if you're a small business owner trying to 184 00:09:30,559 --> 00:09:35,760 Speaker 2: navigate seven different regulatory bodies to just know how to 185 00:09:36,160 --> 00:09:40,520 Speaker 2: get started, employ someone, and win some customers, it's too hard. 186 00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:43,480 Speaker 2: You know. The stat we always talk about it's like 187 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,280 Speaker 2: there's five different definitions of a small business from government, 188 00:09:48,160 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 2: You've got five definitions. It means you're going to create 189 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,800 Speaker 2: inherently five different types of regulation. That means it's just 190 00:09:53,880 --> 00:09:57,200 Speaker 2: hard for a small business to navigate that environment. That's 191 00:09:57,280 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 2: time lost doing the thing they love, which is serving customers, 192 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: winning business and join their last time. 193 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:07,160 Speaker 1: Fantastic out of time. But I've got to say I've 194 00:10:07,160 --> 00:10:09,080 Speaker 1: been thinking about it. I reckon I started as a 195 00:10:09,120 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: lifestyle entrepreneur six years ago and we started Fear and Green. 196 00:10:12,280 --> 00:10:14,319 Speaker 1: That was very much because my children were in high 197 00:10:14,320 --> 00:10:17,280 Speaker 1: school and I kind of needed flexibility and time around that. 198 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: But I got to say, I'm heading towards the ambitious 199 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:22,400 Speaker 1: achiever at the moment. But to your point, yeah, we're 200 00:10:22,440 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: alowed to change along the way. 201 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:25,679 Speaker 2: You are allowed to change on the way. And then 202 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:28,480 Speaker 2: do you want to share what your end game is? 203 00:10:30,760 --> 00:10:34,800 Speaker 1: Well, I mean, honestly, the end game is actually to 204 00:10:34,840 --> 00:10:37,320 Speaker 1: create something that has a voice, that makes a difference, 205 00:10:37,400 --> 00:10:40,800 Speaker 1: that actually informs people in a really plain English way 206 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:44,839 Speaker 1: about what's going on in the business political world, so 207 00:10:44,960 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 1: that they can use that to achieve their goals. And 208 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:52,240 Speaker 1: that's kind of a bit altruistic, you know. Beyond that, Yeah, 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:53,880 Speaker 1: we'd love to sell it at some point, you know, 210 00:10:53,920 --> 00:10:56,080 Speaker 1: without a doubt, and make money from it, but I 211 00:10:56,120 --> 00:10:59,920 Speaker 1: think kind of that's always in the background. But our goal, 212 00:11:00,080 --> 00:11:01,840 Speaker 1: the three of us, Michael Thompson, Adam Lang and I 213 00:11:01,880 --> 00:11:04,480 Speaker 1: as actually we reckon we can make some at the margins, 214 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,840 Speaker 1: some slight difference, particularly to small and medium sized businesses, 215 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:12,640 Speaker 1: particularly to investors, about making things better. Very altruistic. I 216 00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,120 Speaker 1: think I'm on my safebox. I'm God, I better stop 217 00:11:15,160 --> 00:11:17,520 Speaker 1: that right this moment. Thank you very much for talking 218 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:18,240 Speaker 1: to Fear and Greed. 219 00:11:18,280 --> 00:11:19,679 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me you. I appreciate it. 220 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:22,439 Speaker 1: That was angered Seyn Managing Director Australia in New Zealand 221 00:11:22,440 --> 00:11:25,559 Speaker 1: and global Chief strategy officer at Zero, A great supporter 222 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:27,800 Speaker 1: of this podcast. I'm Schanelmer and this is Fear and 223 00:11:27,840 --> 00:11:28,719 Speaker 1: Greed Q and Day