WEBVTT - What Now? | William Tyrrell: 11 0:00:00.720 --> 0:00:09.119 Here we are surprise there is no inquest, despite the 0:00:09.119 --> 0:00:11.159 fact that we told people at the end of the 0:00:11.240 --> 0:00:13.360 last episode that there was going to be an inquest, 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:16.319 and we may have suggested that the inquest was going 0:00:16.360 --> 0:00:21.320 to answer some of the questions outstanding about what happened 0:00:21.360 --> 0:00:24.360 to William Tyrrel and everything that's been done in the 0:00:24.400 --> 0:00:28.440 ten years since. The big news is that actually that's 0:00:28.480 --> 0:00:34.800 not happening because I found out on Tuesday, and all 0:00:34.840 --> 0:00:38.040 credit to the person who gave us this tip, who 0:00:38.040 --> 0:00:42.000 didn't have to and shall remain nameless, the inquest isn't 0:00:42.400 --> 0:00:44.839 going ahead because and I can this is what the 0:00:44.840 --> 0:00:47.440 Coroner's Court have sent me. I can now confirm that 0:00:47.479 --> 0:00:50.640 the coroner has closed the evidence in this inquest and 0:00:50.760 --> 0:00:54.480 vacated the hearing dates, a timetable for written submissions has 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:57.280 been set down, and a date for the delivery of 0:00:57.320 --> 0:01:02.240 Her Honor's findings as the coroner has not yet been fixed. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:06.040 So what we're going to do in this episode is 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:08.880 instead of saying here's what's going to come in the inquest, 0:01:08.880 --> 0:01:11.720 this week, we're going to talk about what this decision 0:01:11.840 --> 0:01:14.920 means and what the inquest is going to look at 0:01:14.920 --> 0:01:17.600 and what it now will not look at and we're 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.039 going to talk about what this podcast will do next 0:01:20.120 --> 0:01:23.280 because we're not finished, are we far from it? 0:01:23.800 --> 0:01:24.720 And for the. 0:01:24.680 --> 0:01:27.160 First time in this episode, we're going to give the 0:01:27.200 --> 0:01:31.160 perspective of the police from the man who actually led 0:01:31.200 --> 0:01:34.920 the force for years during the most controversial period of 0:01:34.920 --> 0:01:38.920 the William Tiole investigation. And I'm pleased because the police 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:42.840 haven't been talking to us during this podcast series, and 0:01:42.880 --> 0:01:45.520 that's you know, they've got a reason to, which is 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:47.920 that they don't want to say anything while the inquest 0:01:47.960 --> 0:01:50.120 is ongoing. And they've probably also got a reason to 0:01:50.240 --> 0:01:53.640 which is that we have criticized them. And it's good 0:01:53.720 --> 0:01:55.640 that we're going to be able to hear from them, 0:01:55.880 --> 0:01:58.800 get their perspective, particularly from the person who was in charge. 0:01:59.480 --> 0:02:03.160 So that's what we're going to do in this episode. 0:02:04.240 --> 0:02:07.640 I'm Dan Box, I'm Nina Young and from news dot 0:02:07.680 --> 0:02:13.079 com dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrrell Episode eleven. 0:02:13.960 --> 0:02:15.919 What now? 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:23.680 Okay, So Dankrona has closed evidence yeap and is asking 0:02:23.720 --> 0:02:26.440 for written submissions. Yeah, what does that mean? 0:02:26.840 --> 0:02:29.959 Well, so this is interesting. So closing the evidence means 0:02:30.000 --> 0:02:32.920 she's not going to hear anything else in open court, 0:02:33.280 --> 0:02:35.280 she's only going to make her decisions based on what 0:02:35.360 --> 0:02:40.040 she's heard up to this point. Written submissions is basically well, 0:02:40.040 --> 0:02:42.640 all the lawyers involve representing all the different parties, So 0:02:42.720 --> 0:02:47.760 the police, biological family, foster family, the state government are 0:02:47.760 --> 0:02:51.880 in there, some persons of interest I imagine Frank Abbott 0:02:51.919 --> 0:02:55.239 who is an interested person and gets to represent himself. 0:02:55.639 --> 0:02:58.640 They get the opportunity to essentially make an argument, and 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:01.000 for the first time they're not dealing in facts, they 0:03:01.040 --> 0:03:04.720 were able to say, this is our opinion of what 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.120 you the coroner should find right. But again, and this 0:03:08.200 --> 0:03:09.960 goes back for me to one of the things I 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:14.919 struggle with with this inquest. Written submissions means everything's written 0:03:14.960 --> 0:03:17.560 down and sent to the coroner. I don't know if 0:03:17.560 --> 0:03:20.040 it's going to be made public. It's not going to 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:22.040 be heard in open court. I've written to the court 0:03:22.080 --> 0:03:24.120 and said will those be made public? And I haven't 0:03:24.120 --> 0:03:28.240 heard back yet. So everything is kind of being done 0:03:28.280 --> 0:03:35.960 at this point behind closed doors. Yeah, And the problem 0:03:36.040 --> 0:03:38.720 with that is you have to trust that everything is 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:41.640 being done properly. It's not held up to the light 0:03:41.760 --> 0:03:42.520 to examine it. 0:03:42.920 --> 0:03:45.600 So at this point it seems like we're not going 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:49.320 to hear anything from the police investigation from the last 0:03:49.360 --> 0:03:51.880 four years in the court in public. 0:03:52.200 --> 0:03:55.280 That is that is actually a big deal, and it's 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:58.320 the thing that so when I got this news that 0:03:58.440 --> 0:04:02.960 tip from that person who shall remain nameless. And also 0:04:03.120 --> 0:04:04.920 I should say we've had a lot of tips, and 0:04:06.080 --> 0:04:08.800 this podcast is better because people have been getting in 0:04:08.840 --> 0:04:10.920 touch and have been sending us tips and things to 0:04:10.960 --> 0:04:13.120 follow up and things to chase. And we probably should 0:04:13.120 --> 0:04:16.400 at some point come back and actually say thank you 0:04:16.440 --> 0:04:18.200 to people and tell them the tips that have come 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.120 in and how we followed them up. And we will 0:04:20.120 --> 0:04:21.919 do that, but not right now, because you asked me 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:28.560 a question. You asked me essentially, what will happen to 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:30.440 all the work that the police have done over the 0:04:30.480 --> 0:04:32.720 past four years. It took me a day or two 0:04:32.800 --> 0:04:36.120 to really process this when I got that tip. What 0:04:36.200 --> 0:04:40.599 the decision by the coroner means is before this year, 0:04:40.839 --> 0:04:43.320 we thought the inquest had finished once before, back in 0:04:43.360 --> 0:04:46.360 October twenty twenty, and at that point the coroner said 0:04:46.360 --> 0:04:48.520 she was going to hand down her findings, so she 0:04:48.640 --> 0:04:52.560 was basically saying the work is done. But just before that, 0:04:52.880 --> 0:04:55.240 the police had made a decision to focus on the 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.279 foster mother as a possible suspect, and since then they've 0:04:58.320 --> 0:05:02.880 spent four years working on that investigation, had those massive 0:05:02.920 --> 0:05:06.640 forensic search at Kendall for four weeks. Yeah, They've seized 0:05:06.800 --> 0:05:10.480 the car, the foster grandmother's car. We've had media leaks, 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.040 we've had pressure tactics, a child has been taken away 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.240 from the foster parents. All of that has happened. But 0:05:17.320 --> 0:05:20.280 now the coroner is saying she doesn't want to hear 0:05:20.839 --> 0:05:25.599 from the police, so she's refused to call David Laidlaw, 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:28.520 the lead detective, to give evidence at the inquest, and 0:05:28.560 --> 0:05:33.880 she's now closed the evidence. And I think that means 0:05:33.920 --> 0:05:38.919 that the coronial team don't think those four years have 0:05:39.120 --> 0:05:44.560 produced anything that shows what's happened to William. I mean 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:48.120 the inquest has heard, you know, from the lead lawyer. 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.000 He said, it's beyond argument that no forensic evidence has 0:05:52.040 --> 0:05:55.760 been located that provides a clue to his disappearance. And 0:05:55.760 --> 0:05:59.560 it's beyond argument that there's no eyewitness who's provided any 0:05:59.600 --> 0:06:01.600 account of how William left the house where he was 0:06:01.640 --> 0:06:07.080 reported missing. So four years of police work looking at 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:16.880 one particular suspect and the coroners basically said she's not impressed. 0:06:18.040 --> 0:06:20.640 Do you think that means that she won't be considering 0:06:20.640 --> 0:06:21.560 a lot of that evidence. 0:06:22.240 --> 0:06:23.680 I think she has to consider it. 0:06:24.240 --> 0:06:26.479 What does she have to consider what she allowed to 0:06:26.480 --> 0:06:27.800 be shown in the court. 0:06:28.200 --> 0:06:32.120 She has to consider everything that is tendered in evidence. 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:35.400 But the fact that she doesn't want to hear him 0:06:35.440 --> 0:06:39.280 answer any questions about it, including you know, why they 0:06:39.320 --> 0:06:42.159 pursued that investigation, why they looked at William's foster mother, 0:06:42.520 --> 0:06:44.880 what basis they had for that. She doesn't want to 0:06:44.920 --> 0:06:47.760 interrogate that at all. She doesn't want the details in 0:06:47.800 --> 0:06:50.599 his statement to become part of the public record. That 0:06:50.839 --> 0:06:55.279 suggests she's not impressed that they have cracked the case, 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:02.640 and that means you've got to ask have the police 0:07:02.680 --> 0:07:04.880 been looking in the right direction for four years? And 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:09.320 if they haven't, then have they missed the opportunity to 0:07:09.400 --> 0:07:10.360 look at someone else. 0:07:12.240 --> 0:07:14.000 We said at the start of the series that an 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:17.440 inquest is not a criminal trial. It's not trying to 0:07:17.480 --> 0:07:20.360 find who's responsible. It is trying to find out the 0:07:20.400 --> 0:07:22.960 cause of a death, or if there was a death 0:07:23.280 --> 0:07:26.920 at all. What do you think this inquest will find? 0:07:27.200 --> 0:07:28.960 Ah? 0:07:29.960 --> 0:07:32.920 I think it's inevitable now that the inquest is going 0:07:32.960 --> 0:07:35.560 to come back with an open finding, And an open 0:07:35.600 --> 0:07:38.280 finding is basically where the inquest comes back and says, 0:07:39.320 --> 0:07:41.400 we don't know, or. 0:07:41.280 --> 0:07:44.880 On the basis of probability, William died on the twelfth 0:07:44.880 --> 0:07:46.560 of September. Yeah, something like that. 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:48.840 I think that is quite likely the colonel will come 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.440 back and say that, on the basis the available evidence William. 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:56.880 I hate saying this, and I apologize to those people 0:07:56.880 --> 0:08:02.760 who might listen and find this confronting on William. I 0:08:02.760 --> 0:08:04.640 think the coroner will probably come back and say, on 0:08:04.680 --> 0:08:08.240 the basis the available evidence, William is dead. But then 0:08:08.280 --> 0:08:11.080 I think on the basis of the evidence that the 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:15.320 coroner's got, I don't think they can say how he died, 0:08:15.920 --> 0:08:20.600 who was involved, what happened. So they're going to come 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:23.640 back with what is normally called an open finding, which 0:08:23.680 --> 0:08:28.440 means basically, we don't know. And the thing is normally 0:08:28.480 --> 0:08:31.600 in those cases and I've seen this happen. The coroner 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:34.920 will then refer the case back to the police Unsolved 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:40.600 Homicide Team for reinvestigation. But here David Laidlaw, the man 0:08:40.600 --> 0:08:43.880 who's been leading the investigation, is in the unsolved Homicide Team. 0:08:43.920 --> 0:08:47.000 He's one of their leaders, and others on the strike 0:08:47.080 --> 0:08:50.720 force are in the Unsolved Homicide Team. So if the 0:08:50.760 --> 0:08:54.560 coroner refers it back to unsolved, she's referring it back 0:08:54.640 --> 0:08:58.520 to the same people who've been the same people who've 0:08:58.520 --> 0:09:01.880 been investigating it and who she is now saying I 0:09:01.880 --> 0:09:05.200 don't want to hear from. As well as all the 0:09:05.200 --> 0:09:07.560 other things we talked about earlier in this series about 0:09:07.600 --> 0:09:10.719 the Unsolved Homicide Team in terms of delays, I mean 0:09:11.080 --> 0:09:16.120 massive delays, backlogs of hundreds of cases they haven't looked at, 0:09:16.520 --> 0:09:23.400 missing evidence, unopened cases, nineteen cases unsolved homicides sitting on 0:09:23.480 --> 0:09:26.760 David Laidlaw's desk for a year that he didn't look at. 0:09:28.400 --> 0:09:34.560 So if the coroner refers it back to that team, 0:09:34.640 --> 0:09:37.240 I don't know where this goes next, and I don't 0:09:37.280 --> 0:09:45.920 know if that would be the right decision, but I 0:09:45.960 --> 0:09:51.400 think that is what the inquest will find. Okay. 0:09:51.480 --> 0:09:54.720 So we were hoping, and this is probably a bit 0:09:54.760 --> 0:09:56.679 of a false hope, we were hoping that they'd be, 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:58.640 you know, this last week of the inquest, and that 0:09:58.720 --> 0:10:00.760 was going to tie all the question we have up 0:10:00.880 --> 0:10:03.360 in a nice bow. That's probably never going to happen. 0:10:03.920 --> 0:10:06.200 You know a number of people who've said that to 0:10:06.240 --> 0:10:09.720 me in the past couple of days since we broke 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:12.280 the news on news dot com do AU that the 0:10:12.320 --> 0:10:15.440 inquest now wasn't going ahead. It's effectively just been stopped. 0:10:16.000 --> 0:10:19.360 The number of people have said, but we were waiting 0:10:19.440 --> 0:10:22.400 to hear the answers, or but it was supposed to 0:10:22.559 --> 0:10:25.679 resolve this, and in fairness it was that's what those 0:10:25.720 --> 0:10:27.200 processes are set up to do. 0:10:27.400 --> 0:10:30.680 Yeah, I mean it was probably a false hope, but 0:10:30.760 --> 0:10:33.000 everyone has that hope. You want, you want the inquest 0:10:33.000 --> 0:10:35.280 to come to the end, give you all those answers, 0:10:35.280 --> 0:10:37.960 and everyone goes, ah, finally that makes sense. We're not 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:41.079 going to get those answers. It looks like, no, what 0:10:41.160 --> 0:10:42.240 questions do you still have? 0:10:42.920 --> 0:10:45.040 Well, I think the interesting thing now is what the 0:10:45.080 --> 0:10:48.760 inquest won't talk about. And I think one of the 0:10:48.880 --> 0:10:51.520 key things that the inquest is not going to talk 0:10:51.559 --> 0:10:55.280 about is the police investigation itself, because the coroner has 0:10:55.400 --> 0:11:00.559 said that she is not investigating the police investigation, and 0:11:00.640 --> 0:11:04.720 that's been born out by her actions. The coroner has 0:11:05.559 --> 0:11:08.960 chosen not to call There's been three lead detectives on 0:11:09.000 --> 0:11:11.640 this case over the last ten years. The Coroner's chosen 0:11:11.720 --> 0:11:14.000 not to call two of them, hands her up and 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:18.360 Gary Jubilin to give evidence at all, and David laidlaw 0:11:18.720 --> 0:11:22.160 the thirds of those lead detectives. The police actually asked 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:24.080 that he give evidence of the most recent hearing and 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:28.520 the coroner refused it. And the coroner isn't looking at 0:11:28.720 --> 0:11:30.959 why the police have done what they've done or how 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:34.280 they've done what they've done. And that's fine if you 0:11:34.360 --> 0:11:37.280 assume the police have done a good job, But if 0:11:37.280 --> 0:11:39.960 you're trying to find out what happened to a missing child, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.640 I think you actually have to ask if the police 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:47.040 did a good job, and if not, what went wrong, 0:11:47.679 --> 0:11:52.319 what's missing, because asking those questions is how you start 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:56.199 to stop this happening again, And maybe asking those questions 0:11:56.240 --> 0:12:00.800 is how you start putting right this investigation. The quest 0:12:01.400 --> 0:12:02.280 I don't think it's going to. 0:12:02.240 --> 0:12:04.680 Ask that, and I think if we examine what's happened 0:12:04.679 --> 0:12:08.240 in the last four years, you're going to find some faults. 0:12:08.520 --> 0:12:11.240 But that's the thing. If the inquest doesn't look at 0:12:11.240 --> 0:12:13.360 the last four years, then no one is going to 0:12:13.400 --> 0:12:17.120 examine what the police have done in that time. The 0:12:17.160 --> 0:12:19.600 other thing I think the inquest is not going to 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.600 talk about is the care system itself. So this is 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.520 the system that William Tirel wass a foster child, which 0:12:25.520 --> 0:12:28.960 means the state government has parental responsibility for him and 0:12:29.000 --> 0:12:32.600 what happens to him. So that's the same state government 0:12:32.640 --> 0:12:36.600 department that threatened journalists with prison if we revealed the 0:12:36.600 --> 0:12:38.720 fact that he was a foster child at the start. 0:12:39.520 --> 0:12:42.319 It's the same state government department that went to court 0:12:42.559 --> 0:12:46.240 fighting to keep that fact hidden. And when you do 0:12:46.480 --> 0:12:51.040 look at that system, it's overloaded. Last year there were 0:12:51.240 --> 0:12:54.640 reports that over one hundred vulnerable kids and young people 0:12:54.800 --> 0:12:59.240 were living in an emergency accommodation such as hotels, motels 0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:03.480 and car parks because there's such a shortage of foster cares. 0:13:04.040 --> 0:13:07.560 The Department of Communities and Justice, which is the relevant department, 0:13:08.000 --> 0:13:11.439 estimates that they need an extra six hundred foster cares 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:16.240 each year to catch up with the backlog. There's about 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:21.600 fifteen thousand children on the New South Wales Child Protection Register, 0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:27.880 So fifteen thousand kids like William, is that system looking 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:31.320 after them? No, the system's not working, okay. So there's 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:32.880 been reports in the last year that there are over 0:13:32.880 --> 0:13:35.840 one hundred thousand reports that one of those kids is 0:13:35.880 --> 0:13:39.960 at risk of significant harm in roughly the year from 0:13:39.960 --> 0:13:43.920 twenty two to twenty twenty three, but just one in 0:13:44.080 --> 0:13:47.440 four of those is actually seen within a month. 0:13:48.120 --> 0:13:48.920 That's really scary. 0:13:49.000 --> 0:13:52.280 That's really scary. That's one hundred thousand kids or more 0:13:52.360 --> 0:13:54.720 at risk of harm and only one in four is 0:13:54.840 --> 0:13:59.640 seen by the government department within a month. And the 0:13:59.760 --> 0:14:02.439 very worst performing area was the mid North Coast and 0:14:02.520 --> 0:14:05.360 New South Wales, which is where William went missing. Now 0:14:05.400 --> 0:14:10.640 maybe that's a coincidence, but that's something that like surely 0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:13.839 that bears examination. I'm not saying William was one of 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:17.320 those kids, but they are kids just like he was, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:20.840 and they need protecting. And I don't think the inquest 0:14:20.880 --> 0:14:23.680 is going to look at that system at all. There's 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:25.840 one other thing I don't think the inquest will talk about. 0:14:26.200 --> 0:14:28.960 I don't think the inquest will look at itself if 0:14:29.000 --> 0:14:33.840 I'd be amazed. And I say that as a cynical 0:14:34.480 --> 0:14:36.240 crime reporter who's seen a few of. 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:39.520 These, it's an unusual inquest. 0:14:39.720 --> 0:14:40.520 It's complete. 0:14:40.560 --> 0:14:43.000 I've never seen anything like that, and I've spoken to 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:46.960 multiple homicide detectives who've done this stuff. For years and 0:14:47.040 --> 0:14:49.720 have never seen anything like this the way it's played out. 0:14:51.240 --> 0:14:53.200 I mean, look at so he got We mentioned the 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:56.280 decision not to call hands up and Gary Jubilin, who 0:14:56.920 --> 0:15:00.840 were the lead detectives. The inquest isn't going to question 0:15:01.000 --> 0:15:04.000 that decision because they made that decision. The Inquest isn't 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.080 going to question whether possibly the coronial team was led 0:15:09.120 --> 0:15:12.520 too closely by the police that came in after Gary's 0:15:12.520 --> 0:15:15.960 career sort of flamed out, and who didn't really want 0:15:15.960 --> 0:15:18.000 anything to do with Gary or what he was looking 0:15:18.040 --> 0:15:22.200 at because of all that fallout, and the inquest probably 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.040 and I might be wrong, and if I am wrong, 0:15:25.120 --> 0:15:30.040 then all credit to them. The Inquest isn't probably going 0:15:30.120 --> 0:15:33.640 to question whether it made sense to have the police 0:15:33.680 --> 0:15:38.480 investigation after Gary left, which was looking particularly at Frank Abbott, 0:15:38.600 --> 0:15:42.760 who now has a conviction for child sex offenses. The 0:15:42.800 --> 0:15:44.760 inquest isn't going to look at whether it made sense 0:15:44.800 --> 0:15:47.280 for them to be investigating that at the same time 0:15:47.320 --> 0:15:52.400 the police are investigating him, which meant that evidence gathered 0:15:52.400 --> 0:15:55.000 by the police was sent to Frank Abbott in his 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:58.160 jail cell for him to read. And I don't know 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:01.840 if the inquest is going to public ask itself why 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:06.080 they never asked Frank Abbot to give any evidence, because 0:16:06.080 --> 0:16:09.960 after everything we heard about people telling the inquest that 0:16:10.000 --> 0:16:13.440 he'd said he knew where William Toole was buried, that 0:16:14.200 --> 0:16:20.240 he had a history of frankly disturbing behavior and allegedly 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.800 violent behavior. After all of that. 0:16:24.160 --> 0:16:27.000 And a deathbed confession from a best friend. 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:31.040 From a best friend which seemed to suggest that Frank 0:16:31.040 --> 0:16:33.960 Abbot had a connection to that friend and may have 0:16:34.000 --> 0:16:36.720 been in a car that drove somebody who matched William's 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.240 description north on the day he went missing, none of 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:42.680 that was actually followed up by asking Frank Abbot any 0:16:42.720 --> 0:16:46.280 questions about it. Yeah, I don't think the inquest is 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:48.600 going to ask itself whether that was the right decision, 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.800 And I don't think the coroner is necessarily gonna, in 0:16:53.840 --> 0:16:57.440 her findings, is going to ask herself the question whether 0:16:57.480 --> 0:17:00.280 the inquest could have done more to guide or rein 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.720 in the police in the past four years, now that 0:17:03.760 --> 0:17:06.840 we know they've spent those four years looking at Williams 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:09.959 Foster Mum, and yet we're not going to hear from 0:17:10.000 --> 0:17:12.760 the lead detective about what they were doing or why 0:17:12.800 --> 0:17:15.560 they were doing it. None of that has been asked, 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:17.320 and I don't know if we're going to hear why 0:17:18.280 --> 0:17:19.240 that wasn't asked. 0:17:24.000 --> 0:17:29.640 So we have been asking these questions, we've been doing 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:31.520 our best to try and answer them. But we are 0:17:31.560 --> 0:17:33.879 just a podcast, right So who do you think is 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:36.680 the best person to ask these questions answer them. 0:17:36.800 --> 0:17:39.840 I'd love to say it was you and me, but 0:17:39.920 --> 0:17:45.640 we're not. We're We're two reporters sitting in a podcast 0:17:45.640 --> 0:17:48.840 studio in Sydney, and we don't have the resources or 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.520 the expertise to do this work. I think we need 0:17:52.560 --> 0:17:56.840 a public inquiry, and I know Alana Smith, who in 0:17:56.880 --> 0:18:01.520 the last episode accused me of contractual shit fuckery, will 0:18:01.560 --> 0:18:03.760 be pleased to hear that because that's what she thinks, 0:18:04.280 --> 0:18:06.240 and she thinks that we should be calling for it. 0:18:07.640 --> 0:18:09.800 But it's also the one thing that everyone agrees on. 0:18:10.480 --> 0:18:14.959 Both William's biological family and his foster family. Bill Spedding, 0:18:15.000 --> 0:18:17.680 who was the first suspect held up by the police, 0:18:18.080 --> 0:18:23.240 Gary Juberlin, who led the investigation for several years, they 0:18:23.400 --> 0:18:25.800 all have said to us that they think there should 0:18:25.800 --> 0:18:27.639 be a public inquiry. And the thing with a public 0:18:27.640 --> 0:18:33.600 inquiry is it's got powers to investigate the police. It's 0:18:33.640 --> 0:18:37.280 got powers to seize documents. It's run by people who are, 0:18:37.320 --> 0:18:39.959 with the greatest respect to you and me, much smarter 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:43.720 and know what they're doing with this thing. No, definitely, 0:18:43.920 --> 0:18:46.720 I've seen them work. I mean, look, I say, in 0:18:46.760 --> 0:18:51.119 this case, we've talked about the Unsolved Homicide Team. Most 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:53.600 of the evidence that we've talked about there about the 0:18:53.640 --> 0:18:56.480 flaws in how that has run in the past. Massive 0:18:56.480 --> 0:19:01.399 flaws came from a special Commission of inquiry into the 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:08.520 police's handling of hate crimes against LGBTQI people. That inquiry 0:19:08.680 --> 0:19:13.120 was phenomenally well run. It was aggressive, It searched out 0:19:13.160 --> 0:19:17.480 the truth. It actually solved unsolved homicides while it was 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:22.200 doing its job that the police hadn't. Can you imagine 0:19:22.240 --> 0:19:29.000 something with that kind of power and ability to uncover 0:19:29.080 --> 0:19:32.760 what happened looking at this case, looking at how it's 0:19:32.760 --> 0:19:36.960 been handled by the state government, by the police, maybe 0:19:36.960 --> 0:19:40.320 even by the media, and calling all of them to 0:19:40.400 --> 0:19:43.879 account and also saying, you know what, maybe this is 0:19:43.880 --> 0:19:44.600 what you missed. 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.080 Yeah, I think this it needs sunlight. 0:19:51.680 --> 0:19:54.480 All reporters say that everything needs sunlight. 0:19:54.119 --> 0:19:57.800 But this does. If you're going to be publicly accusing people, 0:19:57.840 --> 0:20:02.879 which they've done effectively, effectively effectively multiple times. 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:03.919 Well, no, publicly they have. 0:20:04.080 --> 0:20:06.919 Yeah, So if you're going to be publicly accusing people, 0:20:07.760 --> 0:20:10.240 you can't just walk away from that and leave those 0:20:10.240 --> 0:20:12.760 people with their lives destroyed, like you have to answer 0:20:12.760 --> 0:20:13.840 those questions publicly. 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.800 Well, okay, So this is something the coroner is going 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:19.720 to have to grapple with, is those people who have 0:20:19.960 --> 0:20:25.520 been accused did they do it? So you've got okay, 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.080 so just the ones that have been identified. He got 0:20:29.080 --> 0:20:33.640 Paul Savage, the neighbor who doesn't have any real alibi 0:20:33.680 --> 0:20:36.199 for what he was doing at the time William went missing. 0:20:36.880 --> 0:20:40.600 You've got Frank Abbott, who's now been convicted child sex offenses. 0:20:41.240 --> 0:20:43.439 You've got a person who we actually haven't mentioned in 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.520 this podcast, but we have in some of the news 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:49.320 reporting on news dot com dot au who I'm not 0:20:49.359 --> 0:20:51.840 going to name, but the police called him Gorillas in 0:20:51.880 --> 0:20:54.920 the mist. That was their nickname for him. He lived 0:20:54.960 --> 0:20:56.880 very close to where William went missing, and he had 0:20:57.280 --> 0:20:59.600 a montage of photos at the end of his bed 0:21:00.160 --> 0:21:03.840 which included photos of William. You've got Tony Jones, who 0:21:03.880 --> 0:21:07.240 both has no alibi and now has a child sex conviction, 0:21:07.680 --> 0:21:12.760 and you've got other local pedophiles or sex offenders, all 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:16.760 of whom have been publicly identified over the past decade 0:21:18.080 --> 0:21:22.520 as people the police are looking at, and the coroner 0:21:22.600 --> 0:21:26.520 is going to have to look at that, and she's 0:21:26.560 --> 0:21:27.880 going to have to say something. 0:21:30.240 --> 0:21:34.119 So there was a time when it seemed outwardly to 0:21:34.160 --> 0:21:37.760 the public that they were about to solve this case. 0:21:37.600 --> 0:21:40.000 That the police were about to solve them. There was 0:21:40.440 --> 0:21:44.840 and most people believed it, and in fact I believed it. Yeah, 0:21:45.000 --> 0:21:49.520 So I remember seeing that story that broke front page 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:53.040 of the Daily Telegraph September twenty twenty one, saying the 0:21:53.040 --> 0:21:55.359 police had a new suspect and they were confident they 0:21:55.359 --> 0:21:58.000 were going to crack the case, and that new suspect 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.280 was William's foster mother. I remember reading that and thinking 0:22:02.200 --> 0:22:06.280 the police must have really good evidence to be saying 0:22:06.320 --> 0:22:07.719 that publicly. 0:22:08.920 --> 0:22:10.040 And in such a strong way. 0:22:10.160 --> 0:22:14.120 It's such a strong way and to give you some 0:22:14.160 --> 0:22:17.800 context to that. So that article came out and then 0:22:18.080 --> 0:22:21.200 the next month, October twenty twenty one, the foster mother 0:22:21.359 --> 0:22:23.919 was told she's going to face questions of the Crime Commission, 0:22:24.240 --> 0:22:28.000 which is the secretive, powerful body. You can't tell anyone, 0:22:28.040 --> 0:22:31.520 you've got to be questioned there. And then about a 0:22:31.520 --> 0:22:35.760 week after that, Ben Fordham, who's the radio host on 0:22:35.760 --> 0:22:38.359 one of Sydney's biggest radio stations, two GB. 0:22:39.240 --> 0:22:42.359 Ben said this, it's now been more than seven years 0:22:42.520 --> 0:22:45.440 since the disappearance of William Tyrell. But I can tell 0:22:45.480 --> 0:22:48.680 you this, New South Wales Police believe they will crack 0:22:48.760 --> 0:22:52.600 this case. They don't say that lightly. I've had discussions 0:22:52.640 --> 0:22:55.200 with members of the New South Wales Police Force. They 0:22:55.240 --> 0:22:58.240 believe the mystery of William Tyrell will be solved. 0:22:59.000 --> 0:23:01.880 Then a few days after Ben said that, the police 0:23:01.920 --> 0:23:06.720 sees the gray Masda III that Williams foster grandmother owned 0:23:07.119 --> 0:23:10.159 and Williams foster mum drove the morning he went missing. 0:23:10.720 --> 0:23:13.480 A couple of days after that, Williams foster mother is 0:23:13.560 --> 0:23:17.360 questioned at the Crime Commission in secret and a child 0:23:17.720 --> 0:23:22.320 is taken from her. Day after that, the police seek 0:23:22.400 --> 0:23:26.520 an apprehended violence order preventing Williams foster parents having any 0:23:26.520 --> 0:23:29.760