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Speaker 1: Here we are surprise there is no inquest, despite the

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Speaker 1: fact that we told people at the end of the

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Speaker 1: last episode that there was going to be an inquest,

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Speaker 1: and we may have suggested that the inquest was going

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Speaker 1: to answer some of the questions outstanding about what happened

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Speaker 1: to William Tyrrel and everything that's been done in the

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Speaker 1: ten years since. The big news is that actually that's

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Speaker 1: not happening because I found out on Tuesday, and all

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Speaker 1: credit to the person who gave us this tip, who

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Speaker 1: didn't have to and shall remain nameless, the inquest isn't

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Speaker 1: going ahead because and I can this is what the

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Speaker 1: Coroner's Court have sent me. I can now confirm that

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Speaker 1: the coroner has closed the evidence in this inquest and

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Speaker 1: vacated the hearing dates, a timetable for written submissions has

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Speaker 1: been set down, and a date for the delivery of

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Speaker 1: Her Honor's findings as the coroner has not yet been fixed.

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Speaker 1: So what we're going to do in this episode is

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Speaker 1: instead of saying here's what's going to come in the inquest,

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Speaker 1: this week, we're going to talk about what this decision

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Speaker 1: means and what the inquest is going to look at

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Speaker 1: and what it now will not look at and we're

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Speaker 1: going to talk about what this podcast will do next

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Speaker 1: because we're not finished, are we far from it?

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Speaker 2: And for the.

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Speaker 1: First time in this episode, we're going to give the

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Speaker 1: perspective of the police from the man who actually led

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Speaker 1: the force for years during the most controversial period of

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Speaker 1: the William Tiole investigation. And I'm pleased because the police

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Speaker 1: haven't been talking to us during this podcast series, and

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Speaker 1: that's you know, they've got a reason to, which is

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Speaker 1: that they don't want to say anything while the inquest

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Speaker 1: is ongoing. And they've probably also got a reason to

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Speaker 1: which is that we have criticized them. And it's good

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Speaker 1: that we're going to be able to hear from them,

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Speaker 1: get their perspective, particularly from the person who was in charge.

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Speaker 1: So that's what we're going to do in this episode.

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Speaker 1: I'm Dan Box, I'm Nina Young and from news dot

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Speaker 1: com dot Au. This is Witness William Tyrrell Episode eleven.

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Speaker 1: What now?

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Speaker 3: Okay, So Dankrona has closed evidence yeap and is asking

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Speaker 3: for written submissions. Yeah, what does that mean?

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Speaker 1: Well, so this is interesting. So closing the evidence means

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Speaker 1: she's not going to hear anything else in open court,

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Speaker 1: she's only going to make her decisions based on what

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Speaker 1: she's heard up to this point. Written submissions is basically well,

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Speaker 1: all the lawyers involve representing all the different parties, So

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Speaker 1: the police, biological family, foster family, the state government are

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Speaker 1: in there, some persons of interest I imagine Frank Abbott

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Speaker 1: who is an interested person and gets to represent himself.

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Speaker 1: They get the opportunity to essentially make an argument, and

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Speaker 1: for the first time they're not dealing in facts, they

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Speaker 1: were able to say, this is our opinion of what

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Speaker 1: you the coroner should find right. But again, and this

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Speaker 1: goes back for me to one of the things I

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Speaker 1: struggle with with this inquest. Written submissions means everything's written

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Speaker 1: down and sent to the coroner. I don't know if

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Speaker 1: it's going to be made public. It's not going to

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Speaker 1: be heard in open court. I've written to the court

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Speaker 1: and said will those be made public? And I haven't

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Speaker 1: heard back yet. So everything is kind of being done

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Speaker 1: at this point behind closed doors. Yeah, And the problem

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Speaker 1: with that is you have to trust that everything is

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Speaker 1: being done properly. It's not held up to the light

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Speaker 1: to examine it.

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Speaker 3: So at this point it seems like we're not going

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Speaker 3: to hear anything from the police investigation from the last

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Speaker 3: four years in the court in public.

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Speaker 1: That is that is actually a big deal, and it's

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Speaker 1: the thing that so when I got this news that

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Speaker 1: tip from that person who shall remain nameless. And also

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Speaker 1: I should say we've had a lot of tips, and

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Speaker 1: this podcast is better because people have been getting in

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Speaker 1: touch and have been sending us tips and things to

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Speaker 1: follow up and things to chase. And we probably should

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Speaker 1: at some point come back and actually say thank you

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Speaker 1: to people and tell them the tips that have come

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Speaker 1: in and how we followed them up. And we will

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Speaker 1: do that, but not right now, because you asked me

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Speaker 1: a question. You asked me essentially, what will happen to

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Speaker 1: all the work that the police have done over the

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Speaker 1: past four years. It took me a day or two

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Speaker 1: to really process this when I got that tip. What

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Speaker 1: the decision by the coroner means is before this year,

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Speaker 1: we thought the inquest had finished once before, back in

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Speaker 1: October twenty twenty, and at that point the coroner said

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Speaker 1: she was going to hand down her findings, so she

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Speaker 1: was basically saying the work is done. But just before that,

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Speaker 1: the police had made a decision to focus on the

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Speaker 1: foster mother as a possible suspect, and since then they've

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Speaker 1: spent four years working on that investigation, had those massive

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Speaker 1: forensic search at Kendall for four weeks. Yeah, They've seized

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Speaker 1: the car, the foster grandmother's car. We've had media leaks,

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Speaker 1: we've had pressure tactics, a child has been taken away

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Speaker 1: from the foster parents. All of that has happened. But

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Speaker 1: now the coroner is saying she doesn't want to hear

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Speaker 1: from the police, so she's refused to call David Laidlaw,

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Speaker 1: the lead detective, to give evidence at the inquest, and

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Speaker 1: she's now closed the evidence. And I think that means

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Speaker 1: that the coronial team don't think those four years have

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Speaker 1: produced anything that shows what's happened to William. I mean

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Speaker 1: the inquest has heard, you know, from the lead lawyer.

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Speaker 1: He said, it's beyond argument that no forensic evidence has

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Speaker 1: been located that provides a clue to his disappearance. And

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Speaker 1: it's beyond argument that there's no eyewitness who's provided any

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Speaker 1: account of how William left the house where he was

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Speaker 1: reported missing. So four years of police work looking at

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Speaker 1: one particular suspect and the coroners basically said she's not impressed.

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Speaker 3: Do you think that means that she won't be considering

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Speaker 3: a lot of that evidence.

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Speaker 1: I think she has to consider it.

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Speaker 3: What does she have to consider what she allowed to

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Speaker 3: be shown in the court.

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Speaker 1: She has to consider everything that is tendered in evidence.

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Speaker 1: But the fact that she doesn't want to hear him

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Speaker 1: answer any questions about it, including you know, why they

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Speaker 1: pursued that investigation, why they looked at William's foster mother,

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Speaker 1: what basis they had for that. She doesn't want to

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Speaker 1: interrogate that at all. She doesn't want the details in

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Speaker 1: his statement to become part of the public record. That

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Speaker 1: suggests she's not impressed that they have cracked the case,

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Speaker 1: and that means you've got to ask have the police

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Speaker 1: been looking in the right direction for four years? And

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Speaker 1: if they haven't, then have they missed the opportunity to

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Speaker 1: look at someone else.

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Speaker 3: We said at the start of the series that an

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Speaker 3: inquest is not a criminal trial. It's not trying to

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Speaker 3: find who's responsible. It is trying to find out the

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Speaker 3: cause of a death, or if there was a death

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Speaker 3: at all. What do you think this inquest will find?

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Speaker 2: Ah?

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Speaker 1: I think it's inevitable now that the inquest is going

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Speaker 1: to come back with an open finding, And an open

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Speaker 1: finding is basically where the inquest comes back and says,

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Speaker 1: we don't know, or.

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Speaker 3: On the basis of probability, William died on the twelfth

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Speaker 3: of September. Yeah, something like that.

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Speaker 1: I think that is quite likely the colonel will come

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Speaker 1: back and say that, on the basis the available evidence William.

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Speaker 1: I hate saying this, and I apologize to those people

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Speaker 1: who might listen and find this confronting on William. I

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Speaker 1: think the coroner will probably come back and say, on

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Speaker 1: the basis the available evidence, William is dead. But then

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Speaker 1: I think on the basis of the evidence that the

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Speaker 1: coroner's got, I don't think they can say how he died,

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Speaker 1: who was involved, what happened. So they're going to come

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Speaker 1: back with what is normally called an open finding, which

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Speaker 1: means basically, we don't know. And the thing is normally

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Speaker 1: in those cases and I've seen this happen. The coroner

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Speaker 1: will then refer the case back to the police Unsolved

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Speaker 1: Homicide Team for reinvestigation. But here David Laidlaw, the man

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Speaker 1: who's been leading the investigation, is in the unsolved Homicide Team.

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Speaker 1: He's one of their leaders, and others on the strike

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Speaker 1: force are in the Unsolved Homicide Team. So if the

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Speaker 1: coroner refers it back to unsolved, she's referring it back

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Speaker 1: to the same people who've been the same people who've

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Speaker 1: been investigating it and who she is now saying I

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Speaker 1: don't want to hear from. As well as all the

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Speaker 1: other things we talked about earlier in this series about

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Speaker 1: the Unsolved Homicide Team in terms of delays, I mean

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Speaker 1: massive delays, backlogs of hundreds of cases they haven't looked at,

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Speaker 1: missing evidence, unopened cases, nineteen cases unsolved homicides sitting on

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Speaker 1: David Laidlaw's desk for a year that he didn't look at.

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Speaker 1: So if the coroner refers it back to that team,

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Speaker 1: I don't know where this goes next, and I don't

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Speaker 1: know if that would be the right decision, but I

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Speaker 1: think that is what the inquest will find. Okay.

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Speaker 3: So we were hoping, and this is probably a bit

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Speaker 3: of a false hope, we were hoping that they'd be,

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Speaker 3: you know, this last week of the inquest, and that

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Speaker 3: was going to tie all the question we have up

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Speaker 3: in a nice bow. That's probably never going to happen.

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Speaker 1: You know a number of people who've said that to

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Speaker 1: me in the past couple of days since we broke

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Speaker 1: the news on news dot com do AU that the

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Speaker 1: inquest now wasn't going ahead. It's effectively just been stopped.

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Speaker 1: The number of people have said, but we were waiting

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Speaker 1: to hear the answers, or but it was supposed to

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Speaker 1: resolve this, and in fairness it was that's what those

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Speaker 1: processes are set up to do.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean it was probably a false hope, but

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Speaker 3: everyone has that hope. You want, you want the inquest

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Speaker 3: to come to the end, give you all those answers,

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Speaker 3: and everyone goes, ah, finally that makes sense. We're not

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Speaker 3: going to get those answers. It looks like, no, what

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Speaker 3: questions do you still have?

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Speaker 1: Well, I think the interesting thing now is what the

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Speaker 1: inquest won't talk about. And I think one of the

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Speaker 1: key things that the inquest is not going to talk

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Speaker 1: about is the police investigation itself, because the coroner has

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Speaker 1: said that she is not investigating the police investigation, and

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Speaker 1: that's been born out by her actions. The coroner has

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Speaker 1: chosen not to call There's been three lead detectives on

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Speaker 1: this case over the last ten years. The Coroner's chosen

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Speaker 1: not to call two of them, hands her up and

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Speaker 1: Gary Jubilin to give evidence at all, and David laidlaw

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Speaker 1: the thirds of those lead detectives. The police actually asked

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Speaker 1: that he give evidence of the most recent hearing and

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Speaker 1: the coroner refused it. And the coroner isn't looking at

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Speaker 1: why the police have done what they've done or how

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Speaker 1: they've done what they've done. And that's fine if you

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Speaker 1: assume the police have done a good job, But if

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Speaker 1: you're trying to find out what happened to a missing child,

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Speaker 1: I think you actually have to ask if the police

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Speaker 1: did a good job, and if not, what went wrong,

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Speaker 1: what's missing, because asking those questions is how you start

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Speaker 1: to stop this happening again, And maybe asking those questions

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Speaker 1: is how you start putting right this investigation. The quest

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Speaker 1: I don't think it's going to.

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Speaker 3: Ask that, and I think if we examine what's happened

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Speaker 3: in the last four years, you're going to find some faults.

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Speaker 1: But that's the thing. If the inquest doesn't look at

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Speaker 1: the last four years, then no one is going to

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Speaker 1: examine what the police have done in that time. The

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Speaker 1: other thing I think the inquest is not going to

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Speaker 1: talk about is the care system itself. So this is

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Speaker 1: the system that William Tirel wass a foster child, which

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Speaker 1: means the state government has parental responsibility for him and

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Speaker 1: what happens to him. So that's the same state government

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Speaker 1: department that threatened journalists with prison if we revealed the

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Speaker 1: fact that he was a foster child at the start.

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Speaker 1: It's the same state government department that went to court

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Speaker 1: fighting to keep that fact hidden. And when you do

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Speaker 1: look at that system, it's overloaded. Last year there were

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Speaker 1: reports that over one hundred vulnerable kids and young people

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Speaker 1: were living in an emergency accommodation such as hotels, motels

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Speaker 1: and car parks because there's such a shortage of foster cares.

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Speaker 1: The Department of Communities and Justice, which is the relevant department,

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Speaker 1: estimates that they need an extra six hundred foster cares

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Speaker 1: each year to catch up with the backlog. There's about

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Speaker 1: fifteen thousand children on the New South Wales Child Protection Register,

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Speaker 1: So fifteen thousand kids like William, is that system looking

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Speaker 1: after them? No, the system's not working, okay. So there's

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Speaker 1: been reports in the last year that there are over

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Speaker 1: one hundred thousand reports that one of those kids is

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Speaker 1: at risk of significant harm in roughly the year from

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Speaker 1: twenty two to twenty twenty three, but just one in

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Speaker 1: four of those is actually seen within a month.

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Speaker 3: That's really scary.

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Speaker 1: That's really scary. That's one hundred thousand kids or more

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Speaker 1: at risk of harm and only one in four is

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Speaker 1: seen by the government department within a month. And the

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Speaker 1: very worst performing area was the mid North Coast and

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Speaker 1: New South Wales, which is where William went missing. Now

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Speaker 1: maybe that's a coincidence, but that's something that like surely

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Speaker 1: that bears examination. I'm not saying William was one of

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Speaker 1: those kids, but they are kids just like he was,

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Speaker 1: and they need protecting. And I don't think the inquest

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Speaker 1: is going to look at that system at all. There's

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Speaker 1: one other thing I don't think the inquest will talk about.

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Speaker 1: I don't think the inquest will look at itself if

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Speaker 1: I'd be amazed. And I say that as a cynical

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Speaker 1: crime reporter who's seen a few of.

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Speaker 3: These, it's an unusual inquest.

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Speaker 2: It's complete.

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Speaker 1: I've never seen anything like that, and I've spoken to

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Speaker 1: multiple homicide detectives who've done this stuff. For years and

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Speaker 1: have never seen anything like this the way it's played out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, look at so he got We mentioned the

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Speaker 1: decision not to call hands up and Gary Jubilin, who

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Speaker 1: were the lead detectives. The inquest isn't going to question

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Speaker 1: that decision because they made that decision. The Inquest isn't

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Speaker 1: going to question whether possibly the coronial team was led

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Speaker 1: too closely by the police that came in after Gary's

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Speaker 1: career sort of flamed out, and who didn't really want

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Speaker 1: anything to do with Gary or what he was looking

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Speaker 1: at because of all that fallout, and the inquest probably

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Speaker 1: and I might be wrong, and if I am wrong,

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Speaker 1: then all credit to them. The Inquest isn't probably going

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Speaker 1: to question whether it made sense to have the police

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Speaker 1: investigation after Gary left, which was looking particularly at Frank Abbott,

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Speaker 1: who now has a conviction for child sex offenses. The

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Speaker 1: inquest isn't going to look at whether it made sense

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Speaker 1: for them to be investigating that at the same time

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Speaker 1: the police are investigating him, which meant that evidence gathered

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Speaker 1: by the police was sent to Frank Abbott in his

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Speaker 1: jail cell for him to read. And I don't know

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Speaker 1: if the inquest is going to public ask itself why

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Speaker 1: they never asked Frank Abbot to give any evidence, because

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Speaker 1: after everything we heard about people telling the inquest that

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Speaker 1: he'd said he knew where William Toole was buried, that

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Speaker 1: he had a history of frankly disturbing behavior and allegedly

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Speaker 1: violent behavior. After all of that.

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Speaker 3: And a deathbed confession from a best friend.

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Speaker 1: From a best friend which seemed to suggest that Frank

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Speaker 1: Abbot had a connection to that friend and may have

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Speaker 1: been in a car that drove somebody who matched William's

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Speaker 1: description north on the day he went missing, none of

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Speaker 1: that was actually followed up by asking Frank Abbot any

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Speaker 1: questions about it. Yeah, I don't think the inquest is

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Speaker 1: going to ask itself whether that was the right decision,

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Speaker 1: And I don't think the coroner is necessarily gonna, in

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Speaker 1: her findings, is going to ask herself the question whether

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Speaker 1: the inquest could have done more to guide or rein

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Speaker 1: in the police in the past four years, now that

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Speaker 1: we know they've spent those four years looking at Williams

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Speaker 1: Foster Mum, and yet we're not going to hear from

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Speaker 1: the lead detective about what they were doing or why

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Speaker 1: they were doing it. None of that has been asked,

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Speaker 1: and I don't know if we're going to hear why

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Speaker 1: that wasn't asked.

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Speaker 3: So we have been asking these questions, we've been doing

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Speaker 3: our best to try and answer them. But we are

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Speaker 3: just a podcast, right So who do you think is

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Speaker 3: the best person to ask these questions answer them.

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Speaker 1: I'd love to say it was you and me, but

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Speaker 1: we're not. We're We're two reporters sitting in a podcast

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Speaker 1: studio in Sydney, and we don't have the resources or

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Speaker 1: the expertise to do this work. I think we need

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Speaker 1: a public inquiry, and I know Alana Smith, who in

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Speaker 1: the last episode accused me of contractual shit fuckery, will

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Speaker 1: be pleased to hear that because that's what she thinks,

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Speaker 1: and she thinks that we should be calling for it.

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Speaker 1: But it's also the one thing that everyone agrees on.

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Speaker 1: Both William's biological family and his foster family. Bill Spedding,

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Speaker 1: who was the first suspect held up by the police,

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Speaker 1: Gary Juberlin, who led the investigation for several years, they

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Speaker 1: all have said to us that they think there should

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Speaker 1: be a public inquiry. And the thing with a public

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Speaker 1: inquiry is it's got powers to investigate the police. It's

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Speaker 1: got powers to seize documents. It's run by people who are,

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Speaker 1: with the greatest respect to you and me, much smarter

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Speaker 1: and know what they're doing with this thing. No, definitely,

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Speaker 1: I've seen them work. I mean, look, I say, in

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Speaker 1: this case, we've talked about the Unsolved Homicide Team. Most

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Speaker 1: of the evidence that we've talked about there about the

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Speaker 1: flaws in how that has run in the past. Massive

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Speaker 1: flaws came from a special Commission of inquiry into the

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Speaker 1: police's handling of hate crimes against LGBTQI people. That inquiry

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Speaker 1: was phenomenally well run. It was aggressive, It searched out

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Speaker 1: the truth. It actually solved unsolved homicides while it was

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Speaker 1: doing its job that the police hadn't. Can you imagine

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Speaker 1: something with that kind of power and ability to uncover

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Speaker 1: what happened looking at this case, looking at how it's

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Speaker 1: been handled by the state government, by the police, maybe

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Speaker 1: even by the media, and calling all of them to

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Speaker 1: account and also saying, you know what, maybe this is

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Speaker 1: what you missed.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think this it needs sunlight.

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Speaker 1: All reporters say that everything needs sunlight.

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Speaker 3: But this does. If you're going to be publicly accusing people,

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Speaker 3: which they've done effectively, effectively effectively multiple times.

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Speaker 1: Well, no, publicly they have.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So if you're going to be publicly accusing people,

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Speaker 3: you can't just walk away from that and leave those

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Speaker 3: people with their lives destroyed, like you have to answer

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Speaker 3: those questions publicly.

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Speaker 1: Well, okay, So this is something the coroner is going

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Speaker 1: to have to grapple with, is those people who have

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Speaker 1: been accused did they do it? So you've got okay,

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Speaker 1: so just the ones that have been identified. He got

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Speaker 1: Paul Savage, the neighbor who doesn't have any real alibi

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Speaker 1: for what he was doing at the time William went missing.

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Speaker 1: You've got Frank Abbott, who's now been convicted child sex offenses.

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Speaker 1: You've got a person who we actually haven't mentioned in

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Speaker 1: this podcast, but we have in some of the news

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Speaker 1: reporting on news dot com dot au who I'm not

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Speaker 1: going to name, but the police called him Gorillas in

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Speaker 1: the mist. That was their nickname for him. He lived

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Speaker 1: very close to where William went missing, and he had

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Speaker 1: a montage of photos at the end of his bed

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Speaker 1: which included photos of William. You've got Tony Jones, who

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Speaker 1: both has no alibi and now has a child sex conviction,

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Speaker 1: and you've got other local pedophiles or sex offenders, all

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Speaker 1: of whom have been publicly identified over the past decade

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Speaker 1: as people the police are looking at, and the coroner

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Speaker 1: is going to have to look at that, and she's

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Speaker 1: going to have to say something.

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Speaker 3: So there was a time when it seemed outwardly to

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Speaker 3: the public that they were about to solve this case.

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Speaker 1: That the police were about to solve them. There was

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Speaker 1: and most people believed it, and in fact I believed it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I remember seeing that story that broke front page

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Speaker 1: of the Daily Telegraph September twenty twenty one, saying the

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Speaker 1: police had a new suspect and they were confident they

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Speaker 1: were going to crack the case, and that new suspect

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Speaker 1: was William's foster mother. I remember reading that and thinking

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Speaker 1: the police must have really good evidence to be saying

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Speaker 1: that publicly.

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Speaker 3: And in such a strong way.

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Speaker 1: It's such a strong way and to give you some

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Speaker 1: context to that. So that article came out and then

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Speaker 1: the next month, October twenty twenty one, the foster mother

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Speaker 1: was told she's going to face questions of the Crime Commission,

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Speaker 1: which is the secretive, powerful body. You can't tell anyone,

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Speaker 1: you've got to be questioned there. And then about a

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Speaker 1: week after that, Ben Fordham, who's the radio host on

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Speaker 1: one of Sydney's biggest radio stations, two GB.

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Speaker 4: Ben said this, it's now been more than seven years

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Speaker 4: since the disappearance of William Tyrell. But I can tell

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Speaker 4: you this, New South Wales Police believe they will crack

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Speaker 4: this case. They don't say that lightly. I've had discussions

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Speaker 4: with members of the New South Wales Police Force. They

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Speaker 4: believe the mystery of William Tyrell will be solved.

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Speaker 1: Then a few days after Ben said that, the police

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Speaker 1: sees the gray Masda III that Williams foster grandmother owned

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Speaker 1: and Williams foster mum drove the morning he went missing.

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Speaker 1: A couple of days after that, Williams foster mother is

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Speaker 1: questioned at the Crime Commission in secret and a child

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Speaker 1: is taken from her. Day after that, the police seek

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Speaker 1: an apprehended violence order preventing Williams foster parents having any

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Speaker 1: contact with that child, who we can't identify. And a

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Speaker 1: few days after that the police launch this massive search

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Speaker 1: in Kendall. It's on every TV news bulletin, it's in

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Speaker 1: every newspaper. They literally dig up tons and tons of

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Speaker 1: earth and civet. That's the detail the cops go into.

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Speaker 1: And I remember at the time this very senior cop,

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Speaker 1: Detective Chief Superintendent Darren Bennett. He says there's hundreds of

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Speaker 1: officers involved in that search, and he says the searches

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Speaker 1: are in response to evidence we have obtained in the

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Speaker 1: course of the investigation, not speculative in any way. So

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Speaker 1: he's saying they've got evidence, that's what they're acting on.

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Speaker 1: And he says it's highly likely that if we found something,

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Speaker 1: it would be a body.

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Speaker 3: I remember that and I remember thinking, they're about to

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Speaker 3: find the body.

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Speaker 1: Well, yeah, because he's just told you we've got evidence,

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Speaker 1: we're about to find a body. And then the day

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Speaker 1: after that, there's another article in the Daily Telegraph and

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Speaker 1: all credit to the Daily Telegraph. If you want to

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Speaker 1: know about crime in New South Wales, it's the place

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Speaker 1: to read. It's this article that says inside the police

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Speaker 1: thinking on the case. So at this point we know

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Speaker 1: the police are looking at the foster mum, but we

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Speaker 1: don't know why. But this article starts talking about inconsistencies

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Speaker 1: in her evidence, and by now it's widely being reported

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Speaker 1: in the media that the police are looking at whether

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Speaker 1: William fell from the balcony in his house and his

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Speaker 1: foster mum dispose of his body. So that's out there.

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Speaker 1: All of this has happened in a few weeks and

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Speaker 1: it's being reported the police are considering common assault charges.

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Speaker 1: And then on two GB Ben Fordham is talking to

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Speaker 1: the Police Commissioner.

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Speaker 4: The new South Wales Police Commissioner, Mick Fuller is on

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Speaker 4: the line. Commissioner, good morning to you, Good morning Ben,

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Speaker 4: this is a big development.

436
00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:27,280
Speaker 2: Well then, we've.

437
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 5: Never given up on finding what happened to William Tyrell,

438
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,000
Speaker 5: and I've said that from day one when I started

439
00:25:33,080 --> 00:25:35,159
Speaker 5: as the commissioner, and I brought a new team on

440
00:25:35,200 --> 00:25:39,480
Speaker 5: board under Detective Chief Inspector Dave laid Law through probably

441
00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:43,160
Speaker 5: the state's experienced homicide investigator, and he pulled together probably

442
00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:45,800
Speaker 5: one of the best teams we've seen and they inherited

443
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,200
Speaker 5: what was a bit of a mess and have really

444
00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:51,840
Speaker 5: cleaned up that investigation and they've got a clear strategy

445
00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:53,360
Speaker 5: all right, just on.

446
00:25:53,400 --> 00:25:56,760
Speaker 4: The foster parents. Some of the areas that you're searching

447
00:25:56,800 --> 00:25:59,680
Speaker 4: are less than one kilometer from the house on Benaron

448
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 4: d where William vanished. Can I ask why you haven't

449
00:26:03,320 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 4: searched these areas before?

450
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 5: Well, the areas have been searched, Ben, But if you

451
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:10,359
Speaker 5: can imagine initially we're searching for a missing ball and

452
00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:14,760
Speaker 5: that search area expanded, then you know, I suppose that

453
00:26:14,800 --> 00:26:19,200
Speaker 5: the transition of the investigation was looking at some persons

454
00:26:19,200 --> 00:26:23,240
Speaker 5: of interest that were clearly not and I think sometime

455
00:26:23,359 --> 00:26:26,560
Speaker 5: was wasted on that in bush Land as overgrowing, and

456
00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,360
Speaker 5: so a frushet of eyes under the new team, under

457
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,560
Speaker 5: Detective Cheap inspector laid Law, and you know they've been

458
00:26:32,600 --> 00:26:34,600
Speaker 5: particulously pulling apart this matter.

459
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,080
Speaker 4: How many suspects have you narrowed the investigation down to?

460
00:26:41,320 --> 00:26:45,479
Speaker 5: You know, my understanding is from the investigators is that

461
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:48,439
Speaker 5: there is certainly one person in particular that we are

462
00:26:48,440 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 5: looking closely at.

463
00:26:49,920 --> 00:26:53,640
Speaker 4: Commissioner, let me ask you lastly on this, how confident

464
00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:57,600
Speaker 4: are you about the suspect that your detectives have in mind?

465
00:26:58,800 --> 00:27:01,600
Speaker 5: Look, I'll say this, Ben, confident that the team who

466
00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,479
Speaker 5: has the investigation at the moment, I'm confident they can

467
00:27:04,520 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 5: solve it. I truly believe that, and I have from

468
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 5: the start, and I would ask if people continue to

469
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,440
Speaker 5: be patient and just trust in the offices that are

470
00:27:12,480 --> 00:27:14,800
Speaker 5: currently investigating the matter, that they are the best.

471
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:19,240
Speaker 1: So in that interview on TGB, Mick Fuller, the police Commissioner,

472
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:24,000
Speaker 1: gives the investigation his full support. He talks about how

473
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: previously and he means under Gary Jubilin the investigation was

474
00:27:27,840 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: a mess and that it wasted time looking at the

475
00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:33,439
Speaker 1: wrong people. And I know from speaking to Gary he

476
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:37,960
Speaker 1: furiously disagrees with that. Mick Fuller, the Commissioner also says

477
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: that the new lead detective Gary's replacement, David Laidlaw, is

478
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: one of the most experienced homicide investigators in the state

479
00:27:45,200 --> 00:27:49,600
Speaker 1: and his team is the best. And he says they

480
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:53,199
Speaker 1: now have one suspect and he's confident they can solve it,

481
00:27:53,480 --> 00:28:01,600
Speaker 1: and he asks people to trust the police. So, Mick Fuller,

482
00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: he oversaw this case four years he's now left the police,

483
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:08,760
Speaker 1: and I wanted to ask him how he felt about

484
00:28:08,800 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 1: it now. And I also wanted to talk to him

485
00:28:11,320 --> 00:28:14,360
Speaker 1: because we have spent a good part of this series

486
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,920
Speaker 1: criticizing the police, hopefully fairly, but we have said this

487
00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:23,119
Speaker 1: went wrong, that went wrong, this could have been done better.

488
00:28:23,720 --> 00:28:26,960
Speaker 1: And I know that that's easy for us when we

489
00:28:27,000 --> 00:28:29,320
Speaker 1: don't know what it's like to be in their position.

490
00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: So I asked Mick Fuller about that. And bear in

491
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:36,600
Speaker 1: mind this interview was actually recorded a few days ago,

492
00:28:36,640 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: before we knew that the inquest was done. It wasn't

493
00:28:39,880 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 1: coming back. So the first thing I asked Mick was

494
00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:47,280
Speaker 1: how he looked back on his time in the police force.

495
00:28:48,160 --> 00:28:53,160
Speaker 6: The sense of purpose that you get helping people. It's

496
00:28:53,240 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 6: very difficult to get that feeling in other walks of life.

497
00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:03,560
Speaker 6: So I always found on one hand the rewarding nature

498
00:29:03,560 --> 00:29:06,719
Speaker 6: of helping people, and then on the other hand it

499
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,160
Speaker 6: was it's such a great team environment, and you know,

500
00:29:10,200 --> 00:29:15,800
Speaker 6: you meet some amazing people and have some unbelievable experiences.

501
00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:18,800
Speaker 6: So I think, you know, certainly that sense of purpose

502
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:23,200
Speaker 6: for mine is something that you know, I miss.

503
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: Why did you actually join the police in the first place?

504
00:29:26,640 --> 00:29:31,440
Speaker 6: Could you go back to nineteen eighty seven and there

505
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:36,920
Speaker 6: was a huge recruitment campaign and there were lots of ads,

506
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,280
Speaker 6: and I thought to myself, it looked like a job

507
00:29:40,320 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 6: that would be rewarding and lots of funs. So yeah,

508
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:48,719
Speaker 6: I threw in for that with thousands of other young people,

509
00:29:48,880 --> 00:29:51,960
Speaker 6: and you know, really, once I joined, I never looked back.

510
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: When William went missing, Mick was working as a senior

511
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,160
Speaker 1: officer in the police force, but he didn't have anything

512
00:29:58,200 --> 00:30:01,800
Speaker 1: to do with the case itself, so his first experience

513
00:30:01,800 --> 00:30:05,280
Speaker 1: of William's disappearance was watching the news on TV like

514
00:30:05,520 --> 00:30:09,280
Speaker 1: most people. I asked if he was briefed on the

515
00:30:09,320 --> 00:30:13,400
Speaker 1: William Twole investigation when Mick was promoted and took over

516
00:30:13,480 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: the police force in twenty seventeen.

517
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 6: No, it certainly wasn't in the handover and it's not

518
00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:20,760
Speaker 6: that obviously he's not.

519
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 2: An important case.

520
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:27,040
Speaker 6: But if you keep in mind that when I retired

521
00:30:27,080 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 6: in early twenty two, there were over four hundred and

522
00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:36,920
Speaker 6: forty active cold cases suspected homicides dan, so you know,

523
00:30:36,960 --> 00:30:41,560
Speaker 6: this is certainly the most high profile case. You know,

524
00:30:41,600 --> 00:30:44,880
Speaker 6: there are lots of other families hoping and praying for

525
00:30:45,000 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 6: answers as well.

526
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:49,600
Speaker 1: And did you feel that responsibility as commissioner.

527
00:30:50,080 --> 00:30:54,000
Speaker 6: Oh, definitely, you definitely did, because you were meeting people,

528
00:30:56,040 --> 00:30:59,400
Speaker 6: you know, as a request from government. You were meeting

529
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 6: people at events. You know, you would speak regularly at

530
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,320
Speaker 6: rotary dinners and you would bump into people, so it

531
00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:11,360
Speaker 6: was always front of mind because you were constantly out

532
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:13,640
Speaker 6: in the community do you remember.

533
00:31:13,320 --> 00:31:16,440
Speaker 1: When maybe the first time the case did come across

534
00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:16,960
Speaker 1: your desk.

535
00:31:18,120 --> 00:31:24,520
Speaker 6: I certainly remember the issues towards the end of Gary

536
00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:29,360
Speaker 6: Jubilant's time with the case. You know, it was a

537
00:31:29,400 --> 00:31:33,320
Speaker 6: complex time for the investigation. It was a complex time

538
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:39,200
Speaker 6: for Gary. But when things that are making the front

539
00:31:39,200 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 6: page of the paper or the lead stories, as the commissioner,

540
00:31:43,120 --> 00:31:46,240
Speaker 6: you need to have some understanding of where it's at

541
00:31:46,280 --> 00:31:49,280
Speaker 6: because the media are going to ask questions about the

542
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:52,040
Speaker 6: investigation and have we let William yrel down.

543
00:31:52,800 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 1: You're talking about the end of Gary's time as the

544
00:31:55,200 --> 00:32:00,320
Speaker 1: lead detective, the decision to remove him. It wasn't actually yours.

545
00:32:01,360 --> 00:32:05,480
Speaker 1: It was made by Mick Willing, who was acting as

546
00:32:05,480 --> 00:32:07,480
Speaker 1: your delegate. But it was kind of made in your name,

547
00:32:07,560 --> 00:32:09,960
Speaker 1: so I imagine you would have been briefed on it

548
00:32:10,080 --> 00:32:11,320
Speaker 1: at the very least.

549
00:32:11,280 --> 00:32:17,600
Speaker 6: Of course, But as a commissioner of Police, you can't

550
00:32:17,640 --> 00:32:21,040
Speaker 6: possibly get involved in the in the minutia. You know,

551
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:26,160
Speaker 6: you've gotten in superintendent's chief superintendent, you've got assist commissioner

552
00:32:26,200 --> 00:32:29,120
Speaker 6: and a deputy commissioner before any of that would.

553
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 2: Get to me.

554
00:32:29,680 --> 00:32:32,920
Speaker 1: But you would have supported the decision made by your subordinate.

555
00:32:33,840 --> 00:32:38,280
Speaker 6: No of course, of course, and and uh and and

556
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 6: not just because of what unfolded around behaviors. And you know,

557
00:32:44,040 --> 00:32:48,160
Speaker 6: I'll call it noble course corruption. But if you talk

558
00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:54,080
Speaker 6: to victims groups, then they're they're often frustrated from lack

559
00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 6: of progress, which is not always the case, but they

560
00:32:57,000 --> 00:32:59,800
Speaker 6: will tell you that a fresh set of eyes on

561
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 6: conflicts and solved particularly homicide, is the best being for

562
00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 6: the case.

563
00:33:07,040 --> 00:33:08,680
Speaker 1: Can I just go back to the one thing you

564
00:33:08,720 --> 00:33:12,680
Speaker 1: said there? You mentioned noble cause corruption, which you and

565
00:33:12,720 --> 00:33:16,080
Speaker 1: I both know that phrase kind of echoes back to

566
00:33:16,120 --> 00:33:19,320
Speaker 1: the wood World Commission into New South Wales police corruption

567
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:23,080
Speaker 1: and this idea that police officers at the time were

568
00:33:24,520 --> 00:33:28,040
Speaker 1: giving the green light to criminals as a way, at

569
00:33:28,160 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 1: least in their minds or in their justification of doing

570
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,960
Speaker 1: the greater good, and that was the noble cause to

571
00:33:34,000 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 1: their corruption. But why use it in this context?

572
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 6: The noble cause corruption is for mine, is more linked

573
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 6: to police try and solve the case thinking they're doing

574
00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,719
Speaker 6: the wrong thing by short cutting the rules or breaking

575
00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,440
Speaker 6: the rules, which is very different to the corruption that

576
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 6: we saw around the Royal Commission.

577
00:33:58,520 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's still the pursuit of the greater good. And

578
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 1: then like you said cutting corners or breaking some rules,

579
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:09,040
Speaker 1: and you think that maybe what's happened here.

580
00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 6: Although I think in terms of Gary's case, you know

581
00:34:14,239 --> 00:34:17,440
Speaker 6: that matter has been through the courts and finalized, so

582
00:34:17,760 --> 00:34:21,400
Speaker 6: I you know, look, I've never spoken to Gary about it.

583
00:34:21,680 --> 00:34:23,640
Speaker 2: I read about it in the papers.

584
00:34:23,680 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 6: Obviously he was a retired police officer at this stage.

585
00:34:27,080 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 6: But you know, I think that it would be difficult

586
00:34:30,640 --> 00:34:34,080
Speaker 6: to dispute that just to interrupt Gary.

587
00:34:34,320 --> 00:34:39,240
Speaker 1: Jubilin does dispute that Gary hates the idea of noble

588
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: cause corruption and he insists everything he did on the

589
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 1: William two and investigation was legal and in the interests

590
00:34:46,960 --> 00:34:50,800
Speaker 1: of trying to find a missing child. Now, of course

591
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:55,520
Speaker 1: the courts did not agree with Gary, and Mick Fuller

592
00:34:55,640 --> 00:35:00,320
Speaker 1: does accept that the way Gary's career ended wasn't straightforward.

593
00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:04,239
Speaker 6: You know, he worked tirelessly, he had a long career

594
00:35:05,000 --> 00:35:07,759
Speaker 6: and you've you know, you can't help but feel a

595
00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:11,480
Speaker 6: little sorry the way he finished his time with New Sulasspoints.

596
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 1: After Gary left the force, you went on two GB

597
00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:20,879
Speaker 1: and you talked about how the New Strikeforce had one

598
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 1: particular suspect they were looking at and described the investigation

599
00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: that they'd taken over as being a bit of a mess.

600
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,919
Speaker 1: Was that what you were talking about then, this kind

601
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:34,000
Speaker 1: of position that Gary got into, or were you talking

602
00:35:34,040 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: about something more broadly?

603
00:35:36,440 --> 00:35:40,280
Speaker 2: I think that Gary's focus.

604
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:45,040
Speaker 6: Pause enormous angst in the actual task.

605
00:35:44,800 --> 00:35:46,040
Speaker 2: Force itself there.

606
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 6: And I think one of the challenges in these cases

607
00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:57,200
Speaker 6: is that they are complex. They've been running, you know,

608
00:35:57,400 --> 00:36:01,120
Speaker 6: something over a decade. They have been multiple in investigations

609
00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:03,920
Speaker 6: and often in these cases.

610
00:36:03,520 --> 00:36:05,080
Speaker 2: There are multiple inquests.

611
00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:08,080
Speaker 6: Now what I see comes out of that there is

612
00:36:08,120 --> 00:36:11,960
Speaker 6: that multiple victims come out of that. People feel as

613
00:36:11,960 --> 00:36:16,359
Speaker 6: though they're being victimized. And the frustration for me as

614
00:36:16,400 --> 00:36:18,799
Speaker 6: the commissioner, was always there is only one victim in

615
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 6: this case, which is William Terrrial.

616
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 1: So there are other people who maybe see themselves as

617
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:29,400
Speaker 1: victims or in some ways become victims. And I mean,

618
00:36:29,480 --> 00:36:32,239
Speaker 1: let's be honest, there's been a lot of a lot

619
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:35,440
Speaker 1: of that around this case. All of that draws focus

620
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,759
Speaker 1: from the person who is at the center of it

621
00:36:37,800 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 1: and is the central victim.

622
00:36:39,640 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 6: Absolutely, And that's like in quest and coronial. The cranial

623
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 6: process is so important because the current group that strike

624
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:55,799
Speaker 6: force raised there is actually reporting to the coroner. And

625
00:36:55,840 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 6: I think that is sometimes lost on people, is is

626
00:37:00,600 --> 00:37:03,640
Speaker 6: that Dave laid Law and his team a collecting information

627
00:37:03,719 --> 00:37:08,080
Speaker 6: on behalf of the coroner using the coroner's powers.

628
00:37:09,040 --> 00:37:11,920
Speaker 1: Given what you said about how the police at the

629
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:16,120
Speaker 1: moment of reporting to the coroner, Is it a problem

630
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:19,680
Speaker 1: then that the Coroner's refused a request to call Dave

631
00:37:19,760 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: Laidlaw was a witness and said that the reason being

632
00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: that the statement he provided, she'd ask for an account

633
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,360
Speaker 1: of the evidence and he hadn't given that he'd given

634
00:37:29,360 --> 00:37:32,560
Speaker 1: her essentially an account of his opinion, and so she

635
00:37:32,640 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 1: declined to call him. Is that a problem then?

636
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,440
Speaker 6: I don't think it's a problem because if Dave Laidlaw

637
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:46,160
Speaker 6: has given a science statement from what he believes, you know,

638
00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:51,080
Speaker 6: they've arrived that, then the coroner has that Now you know,

639
00:37:51,360 --> 00:37:54,200
Speaker 6: the coroner could deserve the right to call Dave back

640
00:37:54,480 --> 00:37:58,640
Speaker 6: at any time, obviously, and it wouldn't be the first

641
00:37:58,760 --> 00:38:02,800
Speaker 6: time that counsel wasting, the coroner or those representing the

642
00:38:02,920 --> 00:38:06,160
Speaker 6: families disagree with police or disagree with the coroners. But

643
00:38:06,200 --> 00:38:09,440
Speaker 6: I think as long as it's made public and the

644
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:13,439
Speaker 6: public understand that you know the terms of what has

645
00:38:13,520 --> 00:38:14,960
Speaker 6: been accepted and what hasn't.

646
00:38:15,160 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 2: It's important also.

647
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,560
Speaker 6: To note when Dave label Or and his team started,

648
00:38:20,280 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 6: they went back from scratch and they had over nine

649
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:29,279
Speaker 6: hundred persons of interest. I won't say suspects that they

650
00:38:29,280 --> 00:38:33,680
Speaker 6: were persons of interest. And when I had finished up,

651
00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,680
Speaker 6: I finished up in January twenty twenty two. I've got

652
00:38:36,680 --> 00:38:39,960
Speaker 6: my last breaking on sometime in twenty twenty one. But

653
00:38:40,400 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 6: even at that stage then they still had around ten

654
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:50,400
Speaker 6: persons of interest that they were looking at. So, you know,

655
00:38:50,520 --> 00:38:56,359
Speaker 6: in terms of tunnel vision for Roseanne, I didn't get

656
00:38:56,360 --> 00:38:58,920
Speaker 6: a feeling from that during my time.

657
00:38:59,560 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: That's interesting because, of course, in that interview on two GB,

658
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:06,279
Speaker 1: the other thing you talked about was I think you

659
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:10,880
Speaker 1: were asked specifically was there one person they're looking at,

660
00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:12,400
Speaker 1: because that had been on the front page of the

661
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:15,640
Speaker 1: Daily Telegraph, and you confirmed there was one person they're

662
00:39:15,640 --> 00:39:19,239
Speaker 1: looking at in particular. And you also sort of wholeheartedly

663
00:39:19,320 --> 00:39:20,880
Speaker 1: back to the Strike Force. I think you said it

664
00:39:20,920 --> 00:39:23,720
Speaker 1: was one of the best, if not the best teams

665
00:39:23,760 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: that the Force had put together.

666
00:39:25,760 --> 00:39:33,920
Speaker 6: OK, And they laid Law is extremely confident, detective, very apolitical,

667
00:39:36,120 --> 00:39:39,480
Speaker 6: independent of thought. So when he was picked around the

668
00:39:39,520 --> 00:39:42,759
Speaker 6: team and pulled the team together. They were certainly a

669
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 6: very experienced group. Now people may not like they laid

670
00:39:47,880 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 6: Law's opinion on where they have landed, but at the

671
00:39:51,480 --> 00:39:55,160
Speaker 6: same time, you know, I think that they have run

672
00:39:55,160 --> 00:39:57,080
Speaker 6: extremely professional investigation.

673
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: So when you in the interview you said that, yeah,

674
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:04,600
Speaker 1: they're focusing on one person in particular, at the time,

675
00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: they still had maybe I think you said, sort of

676
00:40:06,760 --> 00:40:09,879
Speaker 1: ten persons of interest, but they were focusing on this

677
00:40:09,960 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 1: one person in particular at that point.

678
00:40:13,400 --> 00:40:18,520
Speaker 7: I think statistically, when you look at these type of cases,

679
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 7: if you look at the domestic homicide, in those cases,

680
00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:27,320
Speaker 7: seventy percent of the perpetrators are known to the victim.

681
00:40:28,040 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 6: And then when you take these unusual cases of a

682
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:39,400
Speaker 6: child being abducted or murdered, it's over ninety something percent

683
00:40:40,080 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 6: cases where the victim knows the perpetrator. So certainly, statistically,

684
00:40:48,600 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 6: they were discussing a number of options around you know,

685
00:40:52,080 --> 00:40:54,279
Speaker 6: who was close to wire you And.

686
00:40:54,239 --> 00:40:56,560
Speaker 1: Do you know if what they had ever went beyond

687
00:40:56,640 --> 00:40:59,239
Speaker 1: statistics in terms of why they were looking at this

688
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 1: one person particular.

689
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:06,200
Speaker 6: I never tested they've laid law or the team about

690
00:41:06,280 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 6: why they were or weren't doing something. You know as

691
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:14,400
Speaker 6: the commissioner, I would never force an opinion in relation

692
00:41:14,520 --> 00:41:16,400
Speaker 6: to how an investigation.

693
00:41:15,880 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: Should be wrapped.

694
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,440
Speaker 6: And the commissioner's perspective is that you just want to

695
00:41:19,440 --> 00:41:21,800
Speaker 6: make sure that when you stand up in front of

696
00:41:21,840 --> 00:41:24,279
Speaker 6: the media, you can hand on heart say that you've

697
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:26,600
Speaker 6: put all the resources and you know you've got your

698
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:28,360
Speaker 6: best people working on these cases.

699
00:41:28,800 --> 00:41:32,960
Speaker 1: And that's looking back, that is how you look at it.

700
00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:34,799
Speaker 1: It was the best team that you could put onto it,

701
00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:36,719
Speaker 1: and it was the resources it demanded.

702
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:37,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

703
00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:42,279
Speaker 6: Absolutely, And again the anti challenge in those comments is

704
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 6: that I know this four hundred and forty other families

705
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:47,520
Speaker 6: sort of drop their heads feeling as though that they're

706
00:41:47,560 --> 00:41:51,839
Speaker 6: not getting the same attention. But look, I always gave

707
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:55,240
Speaker 6: time to victims' families on the basis that they deserve

708
00:41:55,320 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 6: to be heard.

709
00:41:56,680 --> 00:41:59,320
Speaker 1: Just on that point, you said you always gave victims

710
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:05,360
Speaker 1: families time. You were publicly criticized by William's foster parents,

711
00:42:05,840 --> 00:42:08,959
Speaker 1: so not his birth parents, but his foster parents who

712
00:42:09,160 --> 00:42:11,880
Speaker 1: did come out. There was a podcast they spoke on,

713
00:42:12,160 --> 00:42:16,720
Speaker 1: and they wrote letters and including criticizing both the decisions

714
00:42:16,760 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: to take Gary Jibbling off the case. But what they

715
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,279
Speaker 1: perceived is a lack of action and also personally a

716
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 1: lack of response in your part. They said they wrote

717
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:28,239
Speaker 1: your letters, so they left your phone messages and they

718
00:42:28,280 --> 00:42:29,759
Speaker 1: said they never heard back from you.

719
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:31,000
Speaker 2: Yeah.

720
00:42:31,080 --> 00:42:34,879
Speaker 6: Look, I honestly if they feeled as though that in

721
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:39,719
Speaker 6: some way that you know, I let William down, then

722
00:42:39,960 --> 00:42:42,759
Speaker 6: you know, of course that would you know, I would

723
00:42:42,800 --> 00:42:47,600
Speaker 6: say sorry for that. But at the same time, I

724
00:42:47,640 --> 00:42:51,719
Speaker 6: think what was more important was a clean slate and

725
00:42:52,360 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 6: again doing our best to focus on solving solving the matter.

726
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,719
Speaker 6: And you know in that, you know, I ensured that

727
00:43:00,280 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 6: the resources were provided and the task force was properly funded.

728
00:43:05,719 --> 00:43:08,799
Speaker 6: But look, if they had criticized me, you know, I

729
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,359
Speaker 6: accept the criticism. Dan. It's a complex job and there's

730
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:15,720
Speaker 6: lots of moving parts and you try to keep people

731
00:43:15,760 --> 00:43:18,760
Speaker 6: happy all the time but often fail.

732
00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,560
Speaker 1: Were you actually aware of that criticism at the time.

733
00:43:24,360 --> 00:43:28,239
Speaker 6: Though, No, no, no, I wasn't. But again then, as

734
00:43:28,239 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 6: a Commissioner of Police that in Australia, I often got

735
00:43:33,880 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 6: plenty of praise from people, but equally there were plenty

736
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,279
Speaker 6: of people that were unhappy. And it's not that you

737
00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,400
Speaker 6: ignore that, but you can't let that impact on daily

738
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:51,080
Speaker 6: decisions because Unfortunately, every day someone is a victim of

739
00:43:51,080 --> 00:43:51,920
Speaker 6: a serious crime.

740
00:43:53,520 --> 00:43:54,880
Speaker 1: I mean, it's one of the things you take on

741
00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: when you take on a role like that, I'd imagine

742
00:43:57,040 --> 00:44:00,359
Speaker 1: is you know, you become a public figure for the

743
00:44:00,360 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 1: good and the bad, and there's going to be both

744
00:44:02,719 --> 00:44:05,960
Speaker 1: and to steer your way through that, isn't it?

745
00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 2: No, it is.

746
00:44:07,760 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 6: But at the same time, if they feel as though

747
00:44:10,400 --> 00:44:15,560
Speaker 6: that somehow they didn't get vict and care from me,

748
00:44:15,920 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 6: then you know, of course I'm apologetic about that, but

749
00:44:20,280 --> 00:44:24,640
Speaker 6: there was no malice to that. But again, you'll spread

750
00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 6: pretty thin at the best of times, but there was

751
00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 6: certainly no malice in that, and you know, accept their criticism.

752
00:44:33,640 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: Just a couple of last things I'd like to ask you,

753
00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,759
Speaker 1: if possible. One is this investigation in terms of the

754
00:44:40,760 --> 00:44:44,879
Speaker 1: public understanding of this investigation turned on its head when

755
00:44:44,920 --> 00:44:48,120
Speaker 1: it became public that the strike force was looking at

756
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:53,120
Speaker 1: one person, particularly being William's foster mother, that was on

757
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:58,120
Speaker 1: front page of the Daily Telegraph. Were you aware that

758
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,560
Speaker 1: story was coming at the time, because a lot of

759
00:45:00,560 --> 00:45:02,280
Speaker 1: people in the police weren't aware.

760
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:06,759
Speaker 6: No, I wasn't aware that the Daily Telegraph was going

761
00:45:06,800 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 6: to run a story on it. Look I know, Gary

762
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:14,440
Speaker 6: has been interviewed since his retirement and said that, you know,

763
00:45:14,520 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 6: he had looked at the poster parents at one stage

764
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:18,560
Speaker 6: and discounted them.

765
00:45:18,560 --> 00:45:18,799
Speaker 2: So I.

766
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:23,760
Speaker 6: Think it would be unreasonable to think that that story

767
00:45:23,880 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 6: shocked anyone, particularly now you Look. Do you, as a

768
00:45:28,960 --> 00:45:32,319
Speaker 6: police officer have off the record conversations with journalists? Yeah,

769
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:35,640
Speaker 6: absolutely you do, and I'm sure you rely on those

770
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:40,719
Speaker 6: every day. But I certainly have never come out publicly

771
00:45:41,200 --> 00:45:50,120
Speaker 6: on any case and said something that would cause prejudice

772
00:45:50,239 --> 00:45:55,360
Speaker 6: against an outcome, because you have to remember that even

773
00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:57,960
Speaker 6: if I had a hunch and that Hunt was right

774
00:45:58,320 --> 00:46:01,799
Speaker 6: and I said something to prejudice, then your cause more

775
00:46:01,880 --> 00:46:03,160
Speaker 6: damaged than good dance.

776
00:46:03,280 --> 00:46:08,040
Speaker 1: So the case, were you involved in any off the

777
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,640
Speaker 1: record conversations before that story came out?

778
00:46:12,360 --> 00:46:15,760
Speaker 6: Look, I honestly don't recall it. I truly don't, but

779
00:46:15,760 --> 00:46:17,920
Speaker 6: but I will say this, I had plenty of off

780
00:46:17,960 --> 00:46:23,759
Speaker 6: the record conversations, and as the commissioner, I was sort

781
00:46:23,760 --> 00:46:29,000
Speaker 6: of prided myself on being available and having an opinion. Now,

782
00:46:29,400 --> 00:46:33,960
Speaker 6: backgrounding a story is one thing, but if you know,

783
00:46:34,080 --> 00:46:39,040
Speaker 6: there's a suggestion that somehow that I had maliciously given

784
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 6: information for a public story, as commissioner.

785
00:46:41,800 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: Well, then it's just not true. There's no suggestion.

786
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:50,600
Speaker 6: Of any But did I talk to journalists, yep, journalists

787
00:46:50,640 --> 00:46:51,200
Speaker 6: still ring me?

788
00:46:51,280 --> 00:46:53,319
Speaker 2: Now, yeah, yes they do.

789
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,280
Speaker 6: But you know, I think, you know, I don't feel

790
00:46:57,320 --> 00:47:00,440
Speaker 6: like I've been let down by a journalist, and I

791
00:47:00,440 --> 00:47:03,440
Speaker 6: don't feel as though that I've ever used that maliciously

792
00:47:03,560 --> 00:47:04,360
Speaker 6: to damage anyone.

793
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,759
Speaker 1: Okay, last thing, looking back now, you're obviously out of

794
00:47:07,800 --> 00:47:11,680
Speaker 1: the police and your time as commissioner has finished. This

795
00:47:11,800 --> 00:47:16,879
Speaker 1: investigation hasn't looking back at it now, what are your

796
00:47:17,000 --> 00:47:18,200
Speaker 1: thoughts about the case?

797
00:47:19,080 --> 00:47:22,120
Speaker 6: I feel it in my heart that in these cases

798
00:47:22,200 --> 00:47:25,319
Speaker 6: you could look back in hindsight and say, look, the

799
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:30,800
Speaker 6: first three days were consequential in probably solving the case,

800
00:47:31,000 --> 00:47:35,880
Speaker 6: and there was a focus on William being a missing person.

801
00:47:36,320 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 6: And I'm sure there's things that we all would have

802
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:43,880
Speaker 6: liked to have done better back in twenty fourteen. So

803
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:46,799
Speaker 6: I think, you know, at the same time, this is

804
00:47:46,800 --> 00:47:50,080
Speaker 6: a particularly challenging case. It was never going to be

805
00:47:50,640 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 6: easy to solve, and maybe it won't get sold this time,

806
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:59,160
Speaker 6: but you know, people won't give up on William Tyrrell.

807
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:02,600
Speaker 6: You know, new police coming through that will take over

808
00:48:02,680 --> 00:48:05,399
Speaker 6: this case from Dave laidlaw at some stage and will

809
00:48:05,440 --> 00:48:08,319
Speaker 6: do another fresh suit of eyes then. So you know,

810
00:48:08,719 --> 00:48:11,560
Speaker 6: I would love to say that this matter was sold

811
00:48:11,640 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 6: before I retired.

812
00:48:12,719 --> 00:48:14,600
Speaker 2: Unfortunately it wasn't.

813
00:48:14,719 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 6: And sometimes it takes thirty forty years for these type

814
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,480
Speaker 6: of matters to be solved, and unfortunately then sometimes they

815
00:48:21,600 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 6: never solved.

816
00:48:33,600 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 1: Okay, So for me, the most significant part of what

817
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:40,720
Speaker 1: Mick Fuller said is at the end there he says

818
00:48:40,760 --> 00:48:43,880
Speaker 1: the first three days of this investigation into William two

819
00:48:44,000 --> 00:48:47,799
Speaker 1: or were consequential in solving the case, and that there

820
00:48:47,840 --> 00:48:50,319
Speaker 1: was a focus on William being a missing person in

821
00:48:50,360 --> 00:48:54,359
Speaker 1: that time, and in hindsight, he says, I'm sure there's

822
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:56,640
Speaker 1: things we all would have liked to have done better

823
00:48:56,880 --> 00:49:01,000
Speaker 1: back in twenty fourteen. And I think that direct reference

824
00:49:01,040 --> 00:49:05,800
Speaker 1: to that first fatal mistake not to protect what was

825
00:49:05,840 --> 00:49:08,919
Speaker 1: a crime scene, to stop people going on it, because

826
00:49:08,920 --> 00:49:10,880
Speaker 1: we know hundreds of people were up and down that

827
00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:12,680
Speaker 1: street cars were driving up and.

828
00:49:12,600 --> 00:49:15,000
Speaker 3: Down, cars weren't being stopped.

829
00:49:14,680 --> 00:49:19,920
Speaker 1: Carl weren't being stopped, searched, identities of drivers taken to

830
00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 1: allow all that to happen and not close it down

831
00:49:22,320 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 1: and say we're going to look for forensic evidence.

832
00:49:25,239 --> 00:49:27,480
Speaker 3: But we saw that the lessons have been learned from

833
00:49:27,480 --> 00:49:28,280
Speaker 3: William's case.

834
00:49:28,360 --> 00:49:31,880
Speaker 1: They have, and the police policy has changed now relatively

835
00:49:31,920 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 1: recently to allow or encourage cops to look at that

836
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,040
Speaker 1: much much sooner.

837
00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:39,120
Speaker 3: In the piece, if you saw the response time on

838
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:39,840
Speaker 3: Cleo Smith.

839
00:49:39,960 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: Cleo Smith was a girl who went missing in Western Australia,

840
00:49:42,920 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 1: so a different police force. But yes, that was done

841
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 1: much sooner. And look, you don't know if that's the

842
00:49:49,719 --> 00:49:51,680
Speaker 1: thing that would have solved this, and you can't say that,

843
00:49:51,760 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 1: but Cleo Smith was found. She'd been abducted and she

844
00:49:54,840 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 1: was found within days. The other thing Mick fully says,

845
00:50:01,480 --> 00:50:04,879
Speaker 1: and this the more I think about it, the more

846
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 1: this kind of I can't quite get past this is

847
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,600
Speaker 1: he says, this is a particularly challenging case. It was

848
00:50:14,680 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 1: never going to be easy to solve, and maybe it

849
00:50:17,840 --> 00:50:21,719
Speaker 1: won't get solved this time. And there's new police coming

850
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:24,240
Speaker 1: through that will take over this case from David Laidlaw

851
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: at some stage and there'll be another fresh set of

852
00:50:26,320 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 1: eyes there. And sometimes it takes thirty or forty years

853
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:34,160
Speaker 1: for these cases to be solved. But by saying that,

854
00:50:35,360 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 1: I think implicitly he's saying that David laidlaw. The currently

855
00:50:39,120 --> 00:50:43,640
Speaker 1: detective might not solve this case because he's saying other

856
00:50:43,680 --> 00:50:48,880
Speaker 1: police will take it from him. And he's also saying, unfortunately,

857
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:51,960
Speaker 1: sometimes these cases are never solved. So you've got the

858
00:50:51,960 --> 00:50:55,640
Speaker 1: guy who was responsible for the police for years while

859
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:59,160
Speaker 1: William Toole was being looked for by his force saying

860
00:51:00,200 --> 00:51:02,520
Speaker 1: maybe they're not going to find him, Maybe it's going

861
00:51:02,560 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 1: to take decades, and maybe the current lead detective isn't

862
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:09,480
Speaker 1: the man who will solve this case.

863
00:51:09,800 --> 00:51:15,520
Speaker 3: That's significant because the case is with the DPP. They're

864
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:18,319
Speaker 3: considering charges against the foster mother right now, they're asked

865
00:51:18,320 --> 00:51:18,919
Speaker 3: to hold off.

866
00:51:19,200 --> 00:51:22,080
Speaker 1: Yes, the police sent the brief of evidence to the

867
00:51:22,160 --> 00:51:23,720
Speaker 1: Director of Public Prosecutions.

868
00:51:23,920 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 3: Presumably now that the inquest is over they will get

869
00:51:29,680 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 3: back to considering that.

870
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: Look, that is a really good point. The police sent

871
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,800
Speaker 1: a brief of evidence to the Director of Public Prosecutions

872
00:51:36,960 --> 00:51:39,719
Speaker 1: for advice on whether they could charge William's foster mother.

873
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:43,200
Speaker 1: Now we don't technically know what that was about, but

874
00:51:43,960 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: there's been enough in the media that we know, and

875
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:49,759
Speaker 1: they said in court that it's to do with disposing

876
00:51:49,800 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: of his body. And then there was months and the

877
00:51:52,960 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: DPP said nothing publicly, and then the cops said, look,

878
00:51:57,680 --> 00:52:00,359
Speaker 1: can you stop thinking about that until the inquest is done.

879
00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 1: And the inquest is now done, I think they'll wait

880
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: until the coroner's findings. But at that point, yeah, the

881
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:11,920
Speaker 1: cops will hopefully ask the DPP to make a decision,

882
00:52:11,920 --> 00:52:14,560
Speaker 1: and the DPP's going to have to say whether they

883
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: think William's fostermum can be charged, whether that decision will

884
00:52:20,040 --> 00:52:23,640
Speaker 1: ever be made public. It would be made public if

885
00:52:23,640 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 1: she is charged, but if not, although given the history

886
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: of leaks in this case, probably find that one out.

887
00:52:33,800 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 1: But if she's not charged, or if she's charged and

888
00:52:36,800 --> 00:52:40,319
Speaker 1: not found guilty, then you've got the police have looked

889
00:52:40,320 --> 00:52:43,680
Speaker 1: at this case for four years and haven't solved it.

890
00:52:44,760 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 1: And I don't think we're really much further forward than

891
00:52:48,040 --> 00:52:50,960
Speaker 1: we were ten years ago in terms of working out

892
00:52:51,000 --> 00:52:54,680
Speaker 1: what did happen to William on that day in twenty fourteen.

893
00:52:56,000 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 3: No, I mean, I think I think the inquest, to

894
00:52:59,360 --> 00:53:01,680
Speaker 3: give credit to the inquest, did a really good job

895
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:05,200
Speaker 3: of examining the initial search for William and I think

896
00:53:05,320 --> 00:53:11,120
Speaker 3: effectively ruling out that he had wandered off. Yeah, so

897
00:53:11,160 --> 00:53:14,279
Speaker 3: that I think at this point we can assume did

898
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,800
Speaker 3: not happen. Yeah, beyond that, there's a lot of questions.

899
00:53:18,640 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 1: I'll tell you there is one crucial witness who I

900
00:53:22,160 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 1: think has been overlooked, at least in the public mind,

901
00:53:26,320 --> 00:53:30,640
Speaker 1: and that is William's sister, who was at the house

902
00:53:31,360 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: on the day he was reported missing. She was four

903
00:53:34,280 --> 00:53:37,640
Speaker 1: years old, he was three. They were playing together on

904
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:41,239
Speaker 1: the front veranda of the house with William's foster mother

905
00:53:41,280 --> 00:53:45,280
Speaker 1: and foster grandmother, and when she was asked by police

906
00:53:45,320 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 1: what happened to him, she said, he was playing this

907
00:53:48,480 --> 00:53:51,600
Speaker 1: game Daddy Tiger, so running up and roaring and running away.

908
00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:54,239
Speaker 1: He was playing that on the balcony and then he

909
00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:58,759
Speaker 1: went off and he was finding Daddy's car. So that's

910
00:53:58,760 --> 00:54:02,400
Speaker 1: what William's sister. I think he's probably the person who

911
00:54:02,480 --> 00:54:09,960
Speaker 1: knows him best. And also she's four and probably I

912
00:54:10,000 --> 00:54:13,920
Speaker 1: don't think it's capable of maintaining a lie to the

913
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:18,400
Speaker 1: police at that point, so I think that's honest. And

914
00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:20,400
Speaker 1: in terms of looking for Daddy's car, we do know

915
00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:23,080
Speaker 1: that William's foster father had gone off. He'd driven away

916
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 1: to make a work call and he was driving back,

917
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,719
Speaker 1: and we do know that that family had this history

918
00:54:30,880 --> 00:54:34,399
Speaker 1: of going out to wait for him when he came

919
00:54:34,440 --> 00:54:37,319
Speaker 1: back from work, and the kids would be surprised and

920
00:54:37,320 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 1: they'd run to him. And William's sister is saying that

921
00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:45,640
Speaker 1: William went off to look for daddy's car. We also

922
00:54:45,800 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 1: know that two of the neighbors who lived just opposite

923
00:54:50,320 --> 00:54:53,239
Speaker 1: the house where William went missing, say they heard the

924
00:54:53,280 --> 00:54:56,040
Speaker 1: sound of a car on gravel, and there was gravel

925
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,920
Speaker 1: around the top of Benirum Drive. And we do know

926
00:55:00,160 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: that the foster father's car, like a lot of cars,

927
00:55:05,600 --> 00:55:09,080
Speaker 1: looked quite similar to one of the neighbors cars, and

928
00:55:09,120 --> 00:55:12,480
Speaker 1: there were people in the street. Paul Savage was out

929
00:55:12,520 --> 00:55:15,840
Speaker 1: at the time. He was packing his car. But William's

930
00:55:15,840 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: sister is now the one person in this that we

931
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,239
Speaker 1: can't talk to or hear from in any form. She's

932
00:55:23,239 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 1: given evidence to the police, She's been interviewed by the

933
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:30,400
Speaker 1: police several times over the years, but in the inquest

934
00:55:30,480 --> 00:55:35,160
Speaker 1: every time they play that evidence, it's in close court

935
00:55:35,360 --> 00:55:39,439
Speaker 1: because fair enough, she's a child, she's vulnerable. They want

936
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:43,759
Speaker 1: to protect her. But in trying to protect her, they've

937
00:55:43,800 --> 00:55:47,120
Speaker 1: actually made it impossible for her evidence to be heard publicly.

938
00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 1: And if I'm honest, I don't see how hearing her

939
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:58,800
Speaker 1: evidence is going to harm her. And Okay, I'm not

940
00:55:58,880 --> 00:56:00,640
Speaker 1: qualified to make that decision, and I'm not a child

941
00:56:00,719 --> 00:56:04,239
Speaker 1: protection specialist, I'm not the coroner. But it does mean

942
00:56:04,280 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 1: that this one crucial witness who has said what she

943
00:56:08,600 --> 00:56:10,840
Speaker 1: thinks William was doing at the time he went missing,

944
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:13,680
Speaker 1: hasn't been heard from in public.

945
00:56:19,480 --> 00:56:23,320
Speaker 3: Okay, so we're coming to the end of the year. Yes,

946
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,880
Speaker 3: we are coming to the end of the series for now,

947
00:56:26,440 --> 00:56:27,080
Speaker 3: are we done?

948
00:56:27,960 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 2: We have a.

949
00:56:28,320 --> 00:56:31,160
Speaker 1: Difference of opinion about this because I want to say

950
00:56:32,160 --> 00:56:34,000
Speaker 1: what we're still doing and you don't want me to

951
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:34,400
Speaker 1: say it.

952
00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 3: We have questions.

953
00:56:38,320 --> 00:56:40,200
Speaker 1: I think it's fair to say we have questions. So

954
00:56:40,560 --> 00:56:43,120
Speaker 1: in terms of what will happen next, that written submission

955
00:56:43,280 --> 00:56:47,640
Speaker 1: process you talked about, which may or may not happen

956
00:56:47,800 --> 00:56:51,560
Speaker 1: in public, I suspect won't. And then the inquest will

957
00:56:51,600 --> 00:56:54,440
Speaker 1: report at some time the coroner will hand down her findings.

958
00:56:55,920 --> 00:56:59,239
Speaker 1: My guess is that will take a few months, but.

959
00:56:59,320 --> 00:57:01,359
Speaker 3: We will be there to report on that. We will

960
00:57:01,520 --> 00:57:04,040
Speaker 3: will be there to report on any other significant updates

961
00:57:04,120 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 3: in the case.

962
00:57:04,760 --> 00:57:06,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the thing you don't want me to talk

963
00:57:06,280 --> 00:57:09,160
Speaker 1: about is that we still have questions. We do but

964
00:57:09,200 --> 00:57:12,360
Speaker 1: more than questions, we have been working to fine answers.

965
00:57:12,400 --> 00:57:16,840
Speaker 1: And there's been a whole other investigation associated with this

966
00:57:16,920 --> 00:57:20,520
Speaker 1: one that you've been doing, particularly in the background, not

967
00:57:20,560 --> 00:57:22,120
Speaker 1: on your own. There's been a few of us working

968
00:57:22,200 --> 00:57:27,800
Speaker 1: on it. But you have found things that surprised me.

969
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:32,760
Speaker 1: You have found things that frankly I cannot believe have

970
00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 1: not been made public, and you've found things that at

971
00:57:35,520 --> 00:57:41,320
Speaker 1: times actually kind of shocked me. So those things are

972
00:57:41,360 --> 00:57:43,560
Speaker 1: part of the answers that we've been working on, and

973
00:57:43,600 --> 00:57:48,320
Speaker 1: we are going to come back with this podcast to

974
00:57:48,360 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: look at those questions to give you those answers. And

975
00:57:52,960 --> 00:57:57,360
Speaker 1: those answers are about things that have happened on the

976
00:57:57,360 --> 00:58:00,400
Speaker 1: mid North coast of New South Wales, which is where

977
00:58:00,400 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 1: William went missing. And it is beautiful country. It's white sand,

978
00:58:07,240 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: it's thick forest, and it's also the home of some

979
00:58:12,240 --> 00:58:19,160
Speaker 1: really troubling allegations. So this inquest may have stopped, but

980
00:58:19,280 --> 00:58:21,880
Speaker 1: this podcast hasn't. We still have questions and we are

981
00:58:21,920 --> 00:58:25,720
Speaker 1: going to find answers and we will do that in

982
00:58:25,760 --> 00:58:35,680
Speaker 1: the next episode of Witness William Tyrell. A lot of

983
00:58:35,760 --> 00:58:39,200
Speaker 1: different people have been involved in making this series, among

984
00:58:39,240 --> 00:58:42,800
Speaker 1: them the executive producer is Nina Young. The sound design

985
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: was by Tiffany Dimack. The producers have been Emily Pigeon,

986
00:58:46,800 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 1: Nicholas Adams, Jazzbar, Phoebe Zakowski, Wallace and Tabby Wilson. Research

987
00:58:52,520 --> 00:58:56,760
Speaker 1: by Adan Patrick, original music by Rory O'Connor. Our lawyer

988
00:58:56,880 --> 00:59:00,080
Speaker 1: is Stephen Coombs, the editor at news dot com. What

989
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 1: a U is Kerry Warren, I'm Dan Box

990
00:59:12,200 --> 00:59:12,480
Speaker 6: M hm