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Speaker 1: Hi, my boris, and this is straight talk. I've spoken

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Speaker 1: to prime ministers, top business leaders, world class operators, and

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Speaker 1: inside Treasure. Jim Chalmers, Welcome to straight Talk.

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Speaker 2: Mate, thanks for having me on your show.

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Speaker 1: Mark most welcome mate. Just quickly today, I mean this

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Speaker 1: show will go out in a couple of days, but

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Speaker 1: today you've been doing presses massive reaction to the Trump tariffs,

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Speaker 1: Chinese tariffs, back to back to the USA. What's happening

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Speaker 1: today and how do you feel about it as a

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Speaker 1: treasure of the country.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, a huge day in the economy today, really

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Speaker 2: three things at once. The markets are going berserk because

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Speaker 2: of the tariff decision. We've we've released some of the

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Speaker 2: economic numbers around the budget and the economy, and we've

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Speaker 2: also put out some modeling about what the tariffs mean

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Speaker 2: for us or what the Treasury expects the tower mean

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Speaker 2: for us. So it's been a huge day. But I

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Speaker 2: think most consequentially, you know, markets, markets are going nuts.

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Speaker 2: And so at the time we're speaking on kind of

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Speaker 2: early issu or mid Monday afternoon, our market's down about

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Speaker 2: four percent. The Americans were down about six percent on Friday.

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Speaker 2: Hong Kong was down nine percent because they've been closed

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Speaker 2: a bit longer, and so today nine percent today, but

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Speaker 2: they've been closed for four days rather than two, so

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Speaker 2: they had all of it in one hit. And so

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Speaker 2: what all of that means basically is that the world's

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Speaker 2: markets are reacting very very badly to the announcement from

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Speaker 2: President Trump.

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Speaker 1: And the China's response doesn't help because that's had you know,

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Speaker 1: China's response to the US. They sound like, let's call

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Speaker 1: it tariff war for at the moment, just for one

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Speaker 1: of a better term. That sort of doesn't all go

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Speaker 1: well for China as an economy, and that reflects back

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Speaker 1: on to US and of course our Ausi dollar. He's

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Speaker 1: been flip flopping around fifty nine sixty sixty one of

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Speaker 1: that territory. Like that's history low, yeah, probably ten years.

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Speaker 2: It is very low, and you bang on. Obviously what

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Speaker 2: matters the tariff announcement by President Trump matters a lot,

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Speaker 2: but in terms of the impact on the economy, it's

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Speaker 2: also the kind of escalation, the Chinese escalation and elsewhere,

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Speaker 2: and that's hard to get a handle on because a

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Speaker 2: lot of that's still to play out. But from an

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Speaker 2: Australian point of view, we are more worried about the

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Speaker 2: impact on the Chinese economy than we are worried about

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Speaker 2: the impact on the American economy. Only about five percent

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Speaker 2: of our exports go to the USA, but a big,

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Speaker 2: much bigger chunk go to China. And so exactly what

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Speaker 2: you said, that our dollar is being hit because our

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Speaker 2: dollar is often treated as a bit of a proxy

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Speaker 2: for how people are seeing China, and because people are

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Speaker 2: worried about China, then our dollar becomes less valuable.

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Speaker 1: And maybe a little bit of silver lining out of

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Speaker 1: all this, because i'd also heard you in the press,

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Speaker 1: I say, if the Reserve banks ever had a good

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Speaker 1: reason to start reducing in tistrates in the main meeting,

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Speaker 1: which I think is the seventeenth masone around there, and

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Speaker 1: off the back of probably not even off the back

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Speaker 1: of any new inflation data, probably don't have to worry

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Speaker 1: about what's going on on what comes out at the

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Speaker 1: end of April. But just from an economics point of

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Speaker 1: economy point of view, they're going to have to do

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Speaker 1: something to look after our economy.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what I actually said in that press conference is

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Speaker 2: and I mean it. You know, I don't make predictions

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Speaker 2: about interest rates. I don't preempt the decisions they take independently.

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Speaker 2: You watch the Reserve Bank as closely as anyone. You

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Speaker 2: know that treasurers don't make those kind of predictions. What

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Speaker 2: I said in the press conference was the market is

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Speaker 2: expecting a number of rate cuts this year, and they've

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Speaker 2: started pricing that into their decisions. And you're right that

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Speaker 2: the next meetings in the middle of May, and some

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Speaker 2: people in the market, some economists, are expecting a bigger

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Speaker 2: than normal interest rate cut. But I be very very careful,

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Speaker 2: as did my predecessor. Everyone in my job tries to

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Speaker 2: be careful not to make those kind of predictions. People

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Speaker 2: can see how the market's reacting, they can close follow

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Speaker 2: the economists that they trust, and the economists and the

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Speaker 2: market are expecting there'll be more rate cuts this year.

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Speaker 1: So we might just The last time I sort of

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Speaker 1: experienced this sort of structural change, potential structural change and

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Speaker 1: or definitely disruption like this was probably the GFC period.

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Speaker 1: What were you doing during the GFC period? Where was

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Speaker 1: Jim Chalmers?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I was for the first bit of it.

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Speaker 2: I was the deputy chief of staff for the Treasurer

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Speaker 2: Wayne Swan. That's when I first met you. And then

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Speaker 2: I became the chief of staff to the Treasurer. And

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Speaker 2: so one of the upsides of that is when we're

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Speaker 2: seeing this pretty extreme volatility in the economy, you know,

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Speaker 2: I've got some experience from this office in thinking through

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Speaker 2: it and responding to it. And I think one of

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Speaker 2: the unusual things about our economy, if you step back

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Speaker 2: for a second, or not unusual, but unusual in historical terms,

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Speaker 2: is we've had now four big economic shocks in less

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Speaker 2: than two decades. We had the GFC, we had COVID,

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Speaker 2: we had the inflation spike after COVID, and now we've

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Speaker 2: got these escalating trade tensions, which you described not unreasonably

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Speaker 2: as a trade war, and so four big economic shocks

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Speaker 2: in less than two.

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Speaker 1: Decades, which is amazing.

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Speaker 2: It's yeah. I mean, it used to be that these

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Speaker 2: big shocks were kind of punctuation points between long periods

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Speaker 2: of calm, and now we're getting more and more frequent crises.

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Speaker 2: And so my formative experience in terms of the job

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Speaker 2: that I do now was actually thinking through and working

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Speaker 2: through some of these sorts of issues in the GFC,

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Speaker 2: a different kind of crisis, but a big challenge to

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Speaker 2: the global economy. With big implications for Australia, and that's

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Speaker 2: what we're working through now.

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Speaker 1: Well. One of the things that is sort of similar

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Speaker 1: back in the GFC period, at least at the beginning,

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Speaker 1: was the shed market reacted badly globally, but particularly in

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Speaker 1: Australian people got quite nervous about the Super. A lot

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Speaker 1: of Australians saw the superinnovation, which is largely invested in shares,

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Speaker 1: go from one point down to another point very quickly,

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Speaker 1: and everyone got very very nervous. Let's leave interest rates out.

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Speaker 1: I mean, interest rates did go down quickly as a

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Speaker 1: result of most countries did this, but let's just push

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Speaker 1: push that aside as you say that's an RBA decision

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Speaker 1: decision anyway, markets will price in whenever they price in.

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Speaker 1: But in terms of the treasurer calming the nerves of

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Speaker 1: Australians who have got money invested in their Super, which

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Speaker 1: by the way, is on your favorite people, Paul Keating,

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Speaker 1: great one of the greatest policies has ever been I

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Speaker 1: think ever been put out. Ever, I'm not that sure

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Speaker 1: about the industry funds who have sort of become much

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Speaker 1: bigger than the banking system after that, but definitely on

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Speaker 1: an individual Australian basis, every single individual in this country

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Speaker 1: is going to be better off, and the Australiannoy person me.

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Speaker 1: But of course you know, we're not going to be

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Speaker 1: forking out for people when they retire, hopefully not as much,

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Speaker 1: not as much as the US. Another place it takes

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Speaker 1: pressure off the pension. So you've seen how Australians felt,

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Speaker 1: and you were the chief Deputy Chief of Staff and

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Speaker 1: then later on Chief of Staff during sort of around

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Speaker 1: that period. What do you what would you say to

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Speaker 1: Ozzy's right now, apart from the fact that you know

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Speaker 1: they've seen eighty five billion dollars get wiped off the

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Speaker 1: ASEX and they're probably the value with their super's gone down,

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Speaker 1: what does the treasurer say? What do you say to

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Speaker 1: Ozzy's about this? What do we do?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? Well, I mean, first of all, I understand that

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Speaker 2: people are nervous about it. Of course they are. You know,

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Speaker 2: we've seen a very substantial drop in the share market

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Speaker 2: just today, and a lot of superannuation is invested in

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Speaker 2: in shares around the world as well, and so it's

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Speaker 2: not limited to what's happening here. And so first of all,

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Speaker 2: I understand particularly if you're closer to retirement, you're watching

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Speaker 2: your balance very closely and very carefully, and so like

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Speaker 2: today are very troubling. I think the reassuring side of

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Speaker 2: that or too, actually pieces of reassurance. First of all,

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Speaker 2: in the last three years, they've been I think twenty

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Speaker 2: eight give or take, I think twenty eight new record

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Speaker 2: highs in the share market and some in the last

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Speaker 2: three years. People have done very very well in their

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Speaker 2: super And the other thing I'd say is that as

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Speaker 2: difficult as these global conditions are, as concerning as developments

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Speaker 2: out of the US and China and elsewhere are, we are,

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Speaker 2: if not the best placed country, we are among the

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Speaker 2: best placed countries to deal with it. You know, our

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Speaker 2: budget is in better nick than other countries. We've made

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Speaker 2: a lot of progress on inflation, our unemployments very low,

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Speaker 2: our economic fundamentals are quite good here. And the credit

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Speaker 2: for that belongs to the whole country. I'm not taking

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Speaker 2: credit for that as a government. We share the credit

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Speaker 2: for that. And so we've made all this progress the

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Speaker 2: last few years, strengthening our budget, strengthening our economy, and

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Speaker 2: that puts us in good stead for whatever the world's

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Speaker 2: going to throw at us. So I think it's possible

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Speaker 2: to be realistic about what's happening in the global economy,

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Speaker 2: but optimistic about Australia's capacity to deal with it, Confident

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Speaker 2: but not complacent about what the coming months and years

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Speaker 2: will bring.

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Speaker 1: Because Australia fared very well in the GFC. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we suffered a little bit in the beginning, but we

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Speaker 1: didn't really have that much damage because we didn't hold

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Speaker 1: us up prime market. Similarly, we don't really export much

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Speaker 1: to America. I mean, some people will be affected on

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Speaker 1: what we exported us, but that's not our biggest export market.

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Speaker 1: Our biggest export market is China, Japan and Korea by far,

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Speaker 1: by far a country mile lake is so much bigger.

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Speaker 1: We sort of fared quite well out of it. You know.

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Speaker 1: At the time, Wayne Swan bought in all sorts of

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Speaker 1: things like deposit guarantees for guaranteeing your depositive the banks

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Speaker 1: that the bankings is because it was a banking faily

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Speaker 1: period and fail in Australia, but that was sort of

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Speaker 1: what was happening around the world. We brought in some

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Speaker 1: government policies it was but Australians love the fact that

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Speaker 1: they've got a lot of money in their super but

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Speaker 1: they need I think Australians and this election period make

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Speaker 1: it even more a lot more complex because you can't

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Speaker 1: and you're in the treasure. You can't say anything but

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Speaker 1: say too many things because you don't want to look

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Speaker 1: like you're being advisory. But at the same time, you're

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Speaker 1: a leader of our country, one of the leaders of

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Speaker 1: our country, you know up there like you're the you know,

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Speaker 1: probably the second most important person when it comes to

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Speaker 1: the economy or the country relative to the economy, and

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Speaker 1: the economy is the number one problem right now. We're

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Speaker 1: not being attacked by anybody, We're not worried about the

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Speaker 1: Minister of a Defense. We're looking at and the economy.

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Speaker 1: Do you feel sometimes I wish I could just say

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Speaker 1: something more to Australians, to just warm them up a

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Speaker 1: little bit, just to say, guys, don't worry, we've got

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Speaker 1: control of this. We're not control. We know what we're doing,

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Speaker 1: we've been through it before. It'll be okay out the

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Speaker 1: other side, especially given there's a electure on. Do you

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Speaker 1: ever get that feeling you just wanted Jim Chalmers wants

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Speaker 1: to say what he really feels.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I'm really fortunate because I decided when

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Speaker 2: I got this job that I was going to try

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Speaker 2: and always err on the side of frankness. And sometimes

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Speaker 2: you can be too blunt, but I would rather be

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Speaker 2: too blunt than the alternative. And so even in the

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Speaker 2: course of today, the whole reason why the Treasury modeling

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Speaker 2: about the impact on the economy from these tariffs, the

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Speaker 2: whole reason that's been made public is because I made

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Speaker 2: it public. I said we were going to update the modeling,

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Speaker 2: and I'll release it, and I made sure that my

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Speaker 2: opponent was briefed on it and all of that, because

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Speaker 2: I think more information is almost always a good thing,

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Speaker 2: and so I try and be blunt and frank about it.

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Speaker 2: And it's true of this challenge from these tariffs. But also,

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Speaker 2: you know, when talking about these cost of living pressures,

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Speaker 2: you and I had that good exchange I think on

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Speaker 2: social media about it, because we haven't ever pretended that

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Speaker 2: there aren't cost of living pressures. I think what matters

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Speaker 2: is once you acknowledge that, you do something about it.

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Speaker 2: And I think that we are. But we've tried to

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Speaker 2: be upfront about that. We've not tried to sugarcoat what

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Speaker 2: have been some difficult economic conditions the last well, really

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Speaker 2: the last four or five years, really the last two decades,

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Speaker 2: and so to acknowledge that in a blunt and frank

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Speaker 2: and upfront way and then to try and explain to

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Speaker 2: people what we're doing about it. And I think that's

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Speaker 2: almost always the best way to go about it, because

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Speaker 2: you want to let people in on what you're grappling with,

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Speaker 2: and especially when there are fifty to fifty calls. And

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Speaker 2: the difference between the experience during the GFC, the experience

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Speaker 2: that my predecessor Josh Frodenbergg during COVID, the experience we

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Speaker 2: had in the global inflation spike and now is the

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Speaker 2: magnitude of these challenges are broadly similar, but the way

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Speaker 2: that you respond to them are a bit different. And

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Speaker 2: so to explain to the Australian people is what we're

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Speaker 2: grappling with in this case, it's a bit different to

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Speaker 2: those other three economic shocks. In this case, what we

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Speaker 2: need to do is make our economy more resilient, help

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Speaker 2: our businesses find new markets in the world and especially

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Speaker 2: in Asia, and also engage so that you know, all

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Speaker 2: of these countries impacted by these tariffs out of the

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Speaker 2: US were more or less in the same boat. Nobody

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Speaker 2: is uniquely impacted. The levels of tariffs are different, but

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Speaker 2: we're all impacted. And so last night I spoke to

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Speaker 2: the UK Chancellor of the Exchequer, Rachel Reeves, about my

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Speaker 2: opposite number in the UK, and talking to her about

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Speaker 2: how are you dealing with it. I'll be speaking with

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Speaker 2: my colleagues and counterparts closer to home as well, because

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Speaker 2: this particular challenge to the global economy requires more resilience,

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Speaker 2: more diverse markets, and more engagement.

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Speaker 1: And so that's our strategy and collaboration.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, lots of that. I mean, especially you know in

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Speaker 2: our region. You know, I was speaking to someone this

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Speaker 2: morning about you know, the fact that we stabilize the

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Speaker 2: relationship with China. You know that trading relationships obviously very

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Speaker 2: important to us the Asian countries. We put so much

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Speaker 2: effort into engaging in the region. Our region is the

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Speaker 2: hope of the side when it comes to the global economy.

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Speaker 2: We are so blessed to be part of the most important,

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Speaker 2: most dynamic region in the world. And if the US

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Speaker 2: wants to clamp down on people exporting into their markets,

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Speaker 2: then I think a lot of the world, including US,

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Speaker 2: is saying we will find different, better, more reliable markets

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Speaker 2: if you don't want our stuff. And here is where

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Speaker 2: coming back to what you asked me before about what's

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Speaker 2: the reassuring part of this. Our employers, our workers, our exporters,

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Speaker 2: our industries are world class. You know. You think about

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Speaker 2: the beef industry, for example, We've got the best beef

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Speaker 2: in the world right and if there's part of the

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Speaker 2: world that doesn't want to buy our beef or wants

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Speaker 2: to put tariffs on our beef, then we'll sell it

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Speaker 2: to other people who want to buy it. And so

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Speaker 2: that gives me a bit of confidence as well. It's

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Speaker 2: not like we are going to the world begging. You know,

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Speaker 2: we have critical minerals, we've got resources, we've got agg

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Speaker 2: we've got manufacturing, we've got services, we've got things we're

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Speaker 2: adding value to. We've actually there are good reasons to

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Speaker 2: be confident, not complacent, to be optimistic about Australia's future

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Speaker 2: despite this really serious turbulence that we're all going through. Now.

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Speaker 1: Could you believe it when it happened when the election

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Speaker 1: got called? Could my god? You're thinking, what's happened to you?

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Speaker 2: Early we announced the town the people.

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Speaker 1: Calls the election in the next com people turned around

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Speaker 1: and then the whole election. Now, so we've got overridden

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Speaker 1: by the tariffs.

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Speaker 2: I wasn't surprised that the way that we describe them

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Speaker 2: as they're not surprising, but they are seismic. And you know,

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Speaker 2: you had to steal in our euminium tariffs before the

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Speaker 2: election was called, and then you had these kind of

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Speaker 2: broader tariffs after the election was called. And you know,

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Speaker 2: obviously we've been engaging with the Americans on this for months,

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Speaker 2: so not so prizing that they went down this path necessarily,

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Speaker 2: but seismic in terms of the impact of the global economy.

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Speaker 2: And you can just see the way that markets have

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Speaker 2: reacted is just one indication of how really whole the

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Speaker 2: rules of the global economy are being rewritten by the Americans,

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Speaker 2: and so everyone's trying to work out how do we

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Speaker 2: make the best of a bad situation. And that's what

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Speaker 2: we're doing, because these supply chains around the world are

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Speaker 2: changing now and we've got a chance to work out

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Speaker 2: how we can be the best, most reliable parts of

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Speaker 2: those new supply chains as the Americans rewrite the rules

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Speaker 2: of the global economy. And so again, you'd rather be

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Speaker 2: us than almost anyone, if not anyone. But it's going

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Speaker 2: to be difficult because the impact on global demand, the

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Speaker 2: impact on the global economy is going to be substantial.

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Speaker 1: What do we think the Americans are trying to do?

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Speaker 1: What's Trump's main game here? I mean, I might just

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Speaker 1: add the newspapers say, you know, like what gets reported

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Speaker 1: should say is that Trump thinks is unfair someone's charging

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Speaker 1: him a tariff. He takes a you he can charge

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Speaker 1: the tariff back, and that's sort of like tip for

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Speaker 1: tap type stuff. But what really do you think is

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Speaker 1: really behind this? Why?

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Speaker 2: Well, I think I don't know if you've got some

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Speaker 2: perspectives on this from the shared interest that you had

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Speaker 2: for a while in the TV show, But I think

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Speaker 2: the thing that appears to be driving it, and again

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Speaker 2: it sets us apart a little bit, is I think

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Speaker 2: President Trump sees a trade deficit with another country as

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Speaker 2: a problem that warrants his attention.

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Speaker 1: So that's a new situation where he is importing more

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Speaker 1: of their stuff than he's exporting to them.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he sees that as a major economic problem.

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Speaker 2: And so as the global economy has become more and

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Speaker 2: more integrated, he has seen these trade deficits that the

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Speaker 2: Americans have with other countries like China as a big

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Speaker 2: economic challenge that he wants to address. What makes us

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Speaker 2: different is the Americans have a trade surplus with US,

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Speaker 2: with a couple of exceptions sort of the other day,

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Speaker 2: a quarterly exception, but really, since I think nineteen fifty two,

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Speaker 2: the Americans have run a trade surplus with US, and

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Speaker 2: so we're different.

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Speaker 1: No, it was we drag more stuff from there to

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Speaker 1: hear than they take from US.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and again I think I said it before, but

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Speaker 2: I don't think people really appreciate that five percent of

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Speaker 2: our exports a bit less actually go to the US.

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Speaker 2: The US is very important to us, very mutually beneficial

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Speaker 2: economic relationship, but in terms of our exports, less than

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Speaker 2: five percent, and they run a surplus with US, and

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Speaker 2: so that makes us different. But I think that's the

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Speaker 2: economic challenge he's trying to address.

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Speaker 1: It sounds very simple. Has had catastrophic structural changes at

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Speaker 1: the moment. It sounds very simple, very very simple.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm doing my best to work out their motivations. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: only the administration knows exactly what they're trying to achieve here,

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Speaker 2: but certainly the effect of what they have done has

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Speaker 2: been drama. And you know, there are very credible people

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Speaker 2: who are saying that this might cause a global recession,

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Speaker 2: and we wouldn't be immune from that. We still expect

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Speaker 2: our economy to continue to grow, but obviously a trade

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Speaker 2: exposed economy like ours, in the context of a serious

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Speaker 2: global downturn, you know, we would be impacted by that

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Speaker 2: and potentially quite seriously. But our central case, our best

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Speaker 2: treasury is best forecast of what they expect is that

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Speaker 2: we'll continue to grow a bit a bit slower because

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Speaker 2: of the way that demand in the global economy is

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Speaker 2: expected to come off.

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Speaker 1: I had Chris Joyce sitting here last week, and Chris

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Speaker 1: said to me that either we could have an inflationary

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Speaker 1: period or a deflationary period. He said, probably it'll start

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Speaker 1: off as a deflationary period, because he said, China will

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Speaker 1: be probably sending a lot more stuff here and by

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Speaker 1: virtual more supply. As a result of more supply, things

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Speaker 1: could well get cheaper, which will solve your inflation problem

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Speaker 1: straight away without even have to try. I mean, and

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Speaker 1: by the way, there's a lot of mortgage holders in

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Speaker 1: this country, a couple of million of them, who'd like

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Speaker 1: to get that inflation problem solved straight wor because it

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Speaker 1: means that their high interest rate problem will get solved

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Speaker 1: straight away.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, first of all, I think we should acknowledge

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Speaker 2: that inflation's come off a lot in the last few years.

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Speaker 1: So from December twenty two, for sure.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it was seven point eight, then it's now two

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Speaker 2: point four, and so it's come off a lot. And people,

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Speaker 2: the markets and economists were already expecting interest rate cuts

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Speaker 2: this year. But this will have implications for inflation there.

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Speaker 2: It sort of swings aroundabout. So Chris is right about

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Speaker 2: the potential for cheaper imports, say imports from exports from

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Speaker 2: the region that would have otherwise gone to the US

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Speaker 2: might find their way to US, and that might bring

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Speaker 2: the price down. Also, the oil price, I'm sure you've

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Speaker 2: been watching, has come off a heap sort of in

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Speaker 2: the mid sixties I think the last time I looked,

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Speaker 2: And so that has the potential to push petrol prices

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Speaker 2: down as well. Petrol's a big part of inflation.

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Speaker 1: Because everyone used it.

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Speaker 2: He's heavily weighted, and so that is possible. The Treasury

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Speaker 2: things the overall impact would be a very modest increase

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Speaker 2: in prices increase in inflation in our economy, but it

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Speaker 2: is possible.

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Speaker 1: At the time.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's possible that those two things, petrol and the

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Speaker 2: price of imports helps out a little bit. There's a

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Speaker 2: lot of complexity in that as well the dollar and

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of other factors. But what Chris said

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Speaker 2: about that is something that a lot of economists are

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Speaker 2: grappling with.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back and let's know a little bit about

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Speaker 1: Jim Chalmers, probably James Chalmers. I would say, James.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I am James.

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Speaker 1: We won't hold against you because he's an election. But

436
00:22:44,160 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: you are a Queenslander.

437
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:53,200
Speaker 2: It's correct, very proud Queensland. Where'd you grow I grew

438
00:22:53,280 --> 00:22:54,480
Speaker 2: on a place called Logan City.

439
00:22:55,000 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 1: Logan City of some great footballs plays Karen for.

440
00:22:59,720 --> 00:23:05,879
Speaker 2: One, Corey Parker, Josh, Papa Lee, some wonderful they're all

441
00:23:05,880 --> 00:23:08,840
Speaker 2: actually from Logan Brothers, which is the best junior rugby

442
00:23:08,920 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: league club in the world. But I grew up in

443
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:13,960
Speaker 2: Logan City, which is sort of between Brisbane and the

444
00:23:14,000 --> 00:23:16,679
Speaker 2: Gold Coast, and it's the area I represent now. I

445
00:23:16,720 --> 00:23:19,560
Speaker 2: represent the southern Brisbane suburbs and the northern half of

446
00:23:19,600 --> 00:23:25,560
Speaker 2: Logan City. Born there, grew up there, raising my kids there.

447
00:23:26,359 --> 00:23:27,960
Speaker 2: It's where I'm from, and.

448
00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:29,160
Speaker 1: You still live there.

449
00:23:29,320 --> 00:23:33,119
Speaker 2: Yeah, I live about not even a k from the

450
00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:37,360
Speaker 2: house I grew up in. Wow, And it actually really

451
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,159
Speaker 2: important to me where I grew up because if I

452
00:23:41,200 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: could have anything when I'm done, I want my community

453
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,160
Speaker 2: to be proud of me. I want them to think

454
00:23:47,160 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: of me as their local member who happens to be

455
00:23:49,560 --> 00:23:51,479
Speaker 2: the treasurer, not the treasurer who happens to be their

456
00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:54,760
Speaker 2: local member, because I draw a lot of inspiration from

457
00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 2: the area.

458
00:23:55,680 --> 00:23:58,679
Speaker 1: So you're your brother sisters, I've.

459
00:23:58,520 --> 00:24:01,919
Speaker 2: Got two older sisters, Yeah, two legends, one in cans

460
00:24:02,000 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: one back in Brisbane now. Yeah, terrific, two terrific older sisters. Yeah,

461
00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 2: my muma still lives in the house that we grew

462
00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:16,520
Speaker 2: up in together or mum and dad split when I

463
00:24:16,600 --> 00:24:21,119
Speaker 2: was in my teens, sort of thirteen fourteen, but both

464
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,080
Speaker 2: both wonderful people and no dramas. But not together.

465
00:24:25,200 --> 00:24:27,600
Speaker 1: Yeah, not together. Well that's fifty cent of the population.

466
00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:29,919
Speaker 2: Both of them. Both of them remarried, lovely people.

467
00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:33,520
Speaker 1: So you grew up in the area, and did you

468
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: play footy or what was your deal?

469
00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 2: I'm a basketball guy, really, Yeah, I'm a basketball guy

470
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:45,240
Speaker 2: and a distance runner, but I'm an obsessive about basketball

471
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:49,040
Speaker 2: and my little boy, my oldest ten year old, he

472
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,399
Speaker 2: is obsessive too, and so we spent a lot of

473
00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:54,080
Speaker 2: time at a place called Logan Thunder, which is our

474
00:24:54,119 --> 00:25:00,720
Speaker 2: local association, and that's in terms of playing coaching, and

475
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:03,680
Speaker 2: I used to work at a basketball stadium Southern Districts.

476
00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:05,840
Speaker 2: That's that's kind of been my passion. But I follow

477
00:25:06,320 --> 00:25:08,920
Speaker 2: rugby League closely and I follow the AFL too. Who's

478
00:25:09,440 --> 00:25:14,399
Speaker 2: side Broncos Broncos and Lions and Logan thunderround the Brisbane

479
00:25:14,400 --> 00:25:14,840
Speaker 2: Bullets in.

480
00:25:14,840 --> 00:25:18,120
Speaker 1: The basketball RUSS We're playing you guys onnight second time

481
00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:19,240
Speaker 1: and watch six weeks or something.

482
00:25:19,240 --> 00:25:20,720
Speaker 2: You had a tough one. I've heard a lot about

483
00:25:20,720 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 2: the match on last weekend because he played the Prime

484
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:25,480
Speaker 2: Minister's team and so yes, yeah, he's shown me a

485
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:26,199
Speaker 2: few highlights on.

486
00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:29,520
Speaker 1: They don't need to gloat. That's okay, it's okay. One

487
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,560
Speaker 1: of the producer, our main producer, executive producer over he's

488
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:35,440
Speaker 1: a man self supported too, so we don't need to

489
00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:37,600
Speaker 1: talk about that for the moment. By the way, well,

490
00:25:37,640 --> 00:25:40,560
Speaker 1: I will say this, I think that pass by Latrell

491
00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: was a forward past.

492
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:43,240
Speaker 2: That's the one that Albert was showing me on his

493
00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:47,199
Speaker 2: phone before we gave a speech together on Sunday in

494
00:25:47,280 --> 00:25:50,919
Speaker 2: Brisbane and before we went on he had something very

495
00:25:51,000 --> 00:25:52,439
Speaker 2: urgent that he wanted to talk to me about and

496
00:25:52,440 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 2: it was actually to show me the past three times

497
00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 2: on his.

498
00:25:55,480 --> 00:25:59,240
Speaker 1: Well don't worry circulating on the Rooster's website has got

499
00:25:59,320 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: mental that we just we'll peel back from that. Obviously

500
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,400
Speaker 1: you're a Queensland Queensland supported in the state of origin too.

501
00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:08,200
Speaker 1: But so you went to school in Logan City.

502
00:26:09,359 --> 00:26:11,280
Speaker 2: I went to school in a place called Mancravat in

503
00:26:11,320 --> 00:26:14,960
Speaker 2: the southern suburbs and I went to primary school in

504
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:17,080
Speaker 2: my local area and a little bit up the road

505
00:26:17,960 --> 00:26:22,440
Speaker 2: to high school. Went to Catholic schools. My dad's side

506
00:26:22,480 --> 00:26:26,040
Speaker 2: of the family Catholic, so I had twelve years of

507
00:26:26,680 --> 00:26:27,480
Speaker 2: Catholic schooling.

508
00:26:27,720 --> 00:26:29,960
Speaker 1: Well, there's nothing wrong with that, and.

509
00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty local, but I think you know, whether it's

510
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,919
Speaker 2: a local sporting scene, whether it's under there's parts of

511
00:26:38,920 --> 00:26:41,520
Speaker 2: my electorate they've got their share of challenges. You know,

512
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 2: it's a tough area and lots of ways I think

513
00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:47,320
Speaker 2: growing up there and being able to represent it now.

514
00:26:47,359 --> 00:26:50,760
Speaker 2: I just think that's a gift. And I'm not alone

515
00:26:50,760 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 2: in the parliament representing where I grew up. There's a

516
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,840
Speaker 2: bunch of people, I'm sure in that boat. But I

517
00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,440
Speaker 2: consider myself especially fortunate because on election day, run into

518
00:27:00,480 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: your mate's mum and you run into the families you

519
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,119
Speaker 2: grew up with, and you know that you know the

520
00:27:06,160 --> 00:27:09,879
Speaker 2: place like the back of your hand, and it really does.

521
00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:13,919
Speaker 2: It gives you an advantage because you don't have to

522
00:27:13,920 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 2: look far to find motivation.

523
00:27:15,600 --> 00:27:18,119
Speaker 1: You've got a till candidate opposing you.

524
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 2: No, I've I feel like I've got everyone, but they

525
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:22,960
Speaker 2: line up to take on the treasurer but I don't.

526
00:27:23,000 --> 00:27:25,600
Speaker 2: I don't think I've got a till yet. That might change.

527
00:27:25,600 --> 00:27:28,640
Speaker 2: We've got a few days left. Green, got a green, Yeah,

528
00:27:28,800 --> 00:27:31,800
Speaker 2: got a liberal, Got a liberal, got a trumpet, got

529
00:27:31,800 --> 00:27:35,800
Speaker 2: a family trumpet. Oh yeah, okay, that's the whole gang.

530
00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,320
Speaker 1: So you when you left school, when you're doing year

531
00:27:39,359 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 1: twelve in Malcrobat, what were you thinking yourself? What's Bill?

532
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,480
Speaker 1: What's what's Jim going to do? What's Jim going to

533
00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,680
Speaker 1: do for his future? I mean, did you have someone say,

534
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:56,000
Speaker 1: come on, mate, I want you to be a lawyer.

535
00:27:56,000 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 1: I want you to be at a bank, or I

536
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 1: want you to go and do an economics course to

537
00:27:58,600 --> 00:28:03,000
Speaker 1: join the was a bank, or I want you to

538
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,400
Speaker 1: be a carpenter, Especially in those years as I grew

539
00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:07,480
Speaker 1: up in a similarity in Sydney.

540
00:28:07,480 --> 00:28:09,040
Speaker 2: Punch bowl and right punchbow.

541
00:28:09,320 --> 00:28:12,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it was always more trade. Be a trade,

542
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 1: you become a plumber or a bricky or a bill

543
00:28:15,680 --> 00:28:17,359
Speaker 1: or is what I want to want to become a bricky?

544
00:28:18,920 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: It was my mother draged me a university. Maybe she

545
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:24,359
Speaker 1: basically made me go to Universe. She actually dragged me

546
00:28:24,400 --> 00:28:29,080
Speaker 1: in and enrolled me. And what was what was Jim

547
00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: Chalmers thinking about at the time? And who did you

548
00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:34,560
Speaker 1: turn to? You turned to mom and dad? Who talked

549
00:28:34,560 --> 00:28:34,720
Speaker 1: to you?

550
00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's important. I think I remember now

551
00:28:38,880 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: or recall now. When I was a teenager, it was

552
00:28:42,720 --> 00:28:45,560
Speaker 2: just me and mum. So my sisters moved out, my

553
00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 2: mum and dad split, and my mum used to work

554
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: night shift every night. And so we came to an

555
00:28:52,680 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 2: arrangement pretty early that we were going to look after

556
00:28:57,040 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 2: each other. But I was going to be on my

557
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 2: own and she was going to be on.

558
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:04,760
Speaker 1: Her own a bit and as in year twelve.

559
00:29:04,960 --> 00:29:08,880
Speaker 2: Really from about grade nine or nine, probably nine or

560
00:29:08,920 --> 00:29:12,400
Speaker 2: ten for the rest of the way through school. And

561
00:29:12,480 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 2: so I went off the rails a little bit when

562
00:29:18,400 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: I was at school. Wasn't the best behaved kid for

563
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:25,000
Speaker 2: a while. And then I ran into this teacher who

564
00:29:26,200 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: literally changed my life. And his name was Norbert Grulik.

565
00:29:30,360 --> 00:29:32,840
Speaker 2: And we just lost Norbert about a year ago. We

566
00:29:33,000 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 2: just passed on. He was almost ninety. And Norbert was

567
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 2: this huge mountain of a guy from Germany and he

568
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,600
Speaker 2: came to Australia and he taught me modern history. And

569
00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 2: because I wasn't from a political family, I had no

570
00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,840
Speaker 2: idea about politics, but I love modern history. And he

571
00:29:50,880 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 2: was my teacher. And he said to me at some point,

572
00:29:54,120 --> 00:29:55,320
Speaker 2: he said to me, you know, what do you want

573
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 2: to do when you leave? I said, I'm really interested

574
00:29:57,080 --> 00:29:58,520
Speaker 2: in the world. You know, maybe I could work in

575
00:29:58,600 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 2: kind of foreign affairs or something. I mean be saying

576
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:02,640
Speaker 2: to me, you could be the foreign affairs minister. And

577
00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 2: I didn't know. I genuinely, in like grade ten or eleven,

578
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,959
Speaker 2: I didn't really know what that meant. We never had

579
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:12,800
Speaker 2: a political conversation at my house and he believed in

580
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: me when not a lot of people would have believed

581
00:30:14,840 --> 00:30:18,640
Speaker 2: in me. And he was just a huge influence of

582
00:30:18,680 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 2: my life. I stayed friends with him until we lost

583
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:27,320
Speaker 2: him last year. And without an Aubert, I wouldn't have

584
00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 2: found this purpose. I don't know where I would be,

585
00:30:31,840 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: but I wouldn't be here because he was the one.

586
00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 2: And when we knew that he was dying, I wrote

587
00:30:40,000 --> 00:30:43,520
Speaker 2: him a letter saying, you know, you've done this, probably

588
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,440
Speaker 2: for a bunch of kids, but what he did for me,

589
00:30:46,480 --> 00:30:47,320
Speaker 2: I'll never forget.

590
00:30:47,920 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: Wow, So that's cool. And he died with last year.

591
00:30:50,880 --> 00:30:54,440
Speaker 2: Yeah he was almost ninety, and yeah, we lost him.

592
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: And I saw him a little bit before he passed away,

593
00:31:00,320 --> 00:31:04,160
Speaker 2: and I I can't convey to you what a wonderful

594
00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: guy is. And he just had this superpower, which is

595
00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:10,160
Speaker 2: to basically find kids that weren't living up to their

596
00:31:10,160 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: potential and to inject them with a sense of belief.

597
00:31:16,000 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 2: And really, from there, I started looking around and thinking,

598
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:23,760
Speaker 2: there's a job apparently where I can care about my community,

599
00:31:25,000 --> 00:31:28,400
Speaker 2: care about what's happening in the world, care about the economy,

600
00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: be a social worker, a lawyer, journalist, all at once.

601
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:36,680
Speaker 2: And so he opened my eyes to something that I

602
00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,040
Speaker 2: had not seen before, I was not aware of before,

603
00:31:39,360 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 2: and he used to give me extra things to read

604
00:31:42,880 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 2: or to think about. I used to hang out with

605
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:50,480
Speaker 2: him after school sometimes have deep and meaningful conversations about

606
00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,960
Speaker 2: the future and the world and where we fit. And

607
00:31:55,080 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 2: I just owe him so much. And you mentioned before

608
00:31:59,080 --> 00:32:02,280
Speaker 2: Paul Keating. The whole reason I started reading books about

609
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: politics was because of Norbit. And that's how I came

610
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:11,880
Speaker 2: to my appreciation for Paul Keating because I used to

611
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: go to the Logan City Library and there's a big

612
00:32:13,720 --> 00:32:19,120
Speaker 2: section on politics that wasn't wasn't the most busiest ayle

613
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:22,480
Speaker 2: in the in the Logan City Library. But I found

614
00:32:22,480 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 2: this book there by a guy called Michael Gordon, who's

615
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: also passed unfortunately, who used to be a press gallery journalist.

616
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: He read a book about Paul Keating, and I took

617
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 2: it home, still a teenager, and I took it home

618
00:32:34,960 --> 00:32:37,520
Speaker 2: in grade twelve, I think it was. And I remember

619
00:32:37,520 --> 00:32:40,160
Speaker 2: reading this thing cover to cover in one sitting, and

620
00:32:40,200 --> 00:32:42,120
Speaker 2: then going back to the beginning and reading it again.

621
00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: And I just couldn't believe that there was a guy

622
00:32:46,680 --> 00:32:50,440
Speaker 2: like Paul from the outer suburbs like me who had

623
00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:54,880
Speaker 2: this kind of heartful of belief and the ability to

624
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 2: kind of tell a story about the country and where

625
00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,360
Speaker 2: people fit in it. And so I Norber helped me

626
00:33:00,400 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 2: discover Paul. And then from that period on, I just

627
00:33:04,560 --> 00:33:07,000
Speaker 2: read everything I could get my hands on about Paul,

628
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 2: about politics, but including Paul. Like there's a great book

629
00:33:10,320 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: called The End of Certainty by Paul Kelly, the journalist

630
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: from The Australian read that early, the Hawk memoirs, all

631
00:33:16,200 --> 00:33:18,680
Speaker 2: this stuff, And so I used to stay up half

632
00:33:18,760 --> 00:33:22,600
Speaker 2: the night home alone. I'm gonna be doing night shift

633
00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:24,760
Speaker 2: and I'd stay up half the night with the lamp on,

634
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 2: just reading everything I could. And I just couldn't. I

635
00:33:27,600 --> 00:33:29,720
Speaker 2: couldn't believe that I had found this thing, and I

636
00:33:29,760 --> 00:33:31,080
Speaker 2: wouldn't have found it without Norbit.

637
00:33:31,280 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 1: So we're talking about the late eighties, early nineties.

638
00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:36,600
Speaker 2: We're now talking about the mid nineties.

639
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 1: Mid nineties. Yeah, midnutes after Paul had after he lost

640
00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:41,200
Speaker 1: election as Prime minister.

641
00:33:41,280 --> 00:33:44,360
Speaker 2: Well, I turned eighteen the day that Paul lost the election.

642
00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:46,280
Speaker 1: As the Prime minist He was a promise.

643
00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So the second of March ninety six he

644
00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:51,360
Speaker 2: lost office as the Prime minister. I turned eighteen that

645
00:33:51,440 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 2: day and I preregistered to vote, So my first vote

646
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: was the day was my birthday, and it was the

647
00:33:57,200 --> 00:33:59,920
Speaker 2: day that Paul lost the ninety sixth election, which is

648
00:34:00,120 --> 00:34:02,160
Speaker 2: pretty strange coincidence.

649
00:34:02,160 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 1: You know, it's really interesting about that that period nineteen

650
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: ninety six, just by memory, is that nineteen ninety six

651
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,919
Speaker 1: was the year that the Reserve Bank introduced the two

652
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:13,400
Speaker 1: to three percent inflation.

653
00:34:13,080 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 2: Range, right, the inflation targeting.

654
00:34:15,080 --> 00:34:17,640
Speaker 1: That's it, nineteen ninety six. Bear in mind, we just

655
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:23,080
Speaker 1: come off ridiculously high inflation period during the Bob Hawk's period,

656
00:34:23,280 --> 00:34:26,960
Speaker 1: great pro minis, and during Paul's period as well, we

657
00:34:27,000 --> 00:34:30,160
Speaker 1: had high inflation, but they decided that that's when, that's

658
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:32,000
Speaker 1: when they decided that two to three percent was going

659
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,239
Speaker 1: to be the range of inflation. Which, by the way,

660
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: we sat in that inflation range on average. Sometimes someone

661
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,680
Speaker 1: has a blow right up unto twenty and twenty twenty

662
00:34:43,760 --> 00:34:46,799
Speaker 1: or something like that just before COVID. Right, it was

663
00:34:46,800 --> 00:34:49,319
Speaker 1: pretty good. It was twenty five years, nearly twenty six

664
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:52,960
Speaker 1: years of that two to three PERCENTBA range, and it

665
00:34:53,000 --> 00:34:56,000
Speaker 1: was in that period nineteen ninety six, and and of

666
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:58,040
Speaker 1: course that was a tough period. I mean it was

667
00:34:58,080 --> 00:35:00,400
Speaker 1: a very tough period for everybody. That period. We've just

668
00:35:00,440 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 1: been through something similar. I mean the interurracent got as high,

669
00:35:03,800 --> 00:35:07,080
Speaker 1: but relative to the amount of money we've borrowed as

670
00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:09,640
Speaker 1: Australians and as a country, you know, it's been the

671
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,000
Speaker 1: same outcome. It's been pretty tough period these our interest

672
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:15,120
Speaker 1: rates and and and it's interesting that you should say

673
00:35:15,120 --> 00:35:19,359
Speaker 1: that that that was the first time you were able

674
00:35:19,400 --> 00:35:23,520
Speaker 1: to vote in nineteen six as treasurer, saying that today

675
00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:27,560
Speaker 1: as treasurer. And I do recall at the time McFarland

676
00:35:27,640 --> 00:35:30,680
Speaker 1: was a treasurer, but McFarlan was the RBA governor, I

677
00:35:30,719 --> 00:35:34,800
Speaker 1: should say, and when when Paul was the Treasurer and

678
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:36,880
Speaker 1: and or Prime Minister. I used to think to myself,

679
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:38,719
Speaker 1: because I'm a lot older you and I used to

680
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: think and Paul, by the way, Paul was a few

681
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:42,640
Speaker 1: years old men, but he was at my si. I

682
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: went to the school banks then that he.

683
00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:48,400
Speaker 2: Went to sell Yeah did you Yeah, I'm the same school.

684
00:35:48,680 --> 00:35:51,920
Speaker 2: And is there a statue of him, you know, not

685
00:35:52,040 --> 00:35:52,239
Speaker 2: of me?

686
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:54,840
Speaker 1: Mate, definitely similar to yourself.

687
00:35:54,840 --> 00:35:55,080
Speaker 2: I had.

688
00:35:55,320 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 1: I was a bit wayward, right. I don't know if

689
00:35:59,520 --> 00:36:01,400
Speaker 1: for the same reasons that I was a be wayward too,

690
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: but fortunately but I'm similar. It's not about me, about you.

691
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:06,760
Speaker 1: But I didn't meet a person one of the brothers

692
00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:08,600
Speaker 1: at the school I was in kind of school who

693
00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:12,319
Speaker 1: actually changed my life. And he changed my life just

694
00:36:12,360 --> 00:36:16,600
Speaker 1: by just by guidance. Yeah, it's amazing. He he is ninety

695
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: three or four at the moment. It's still life, but

696
00:36:18,840 --> 00:36:21,160
Speaker 1: it's I'll never forget it, never forget it, similar to

697
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: yourself when you sound struct absolutely, Yeah. We had our

698
00:36:25,640 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 1: scary we'd have two years ago. We had fiftieth Anniverse

699
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:32,719
Speaker 1: Thary year twelve and the Reasony Workers and he came.

700
00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:35,279
Speaker 1: He fought from Melbourne to come to that. And the

701
00:36:35,360 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 1: only reason when is I went because I knew it

702
00:36:36,800 --> 00:36:39,239
Speaker 1: was coming, and all the all the boys I was

703
00:36:39,239 --> 00:36:40,279
Speaker 1: going to say the kids, but all the.

704
00:36:40,280 --> 00:36:41,840
Speaker 2: Fellows out of the market.

705
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,359
Speaker 1: Well actually now, but Darryl Ellam did.

706
00:36:44,840 --> 00:36:45,359
Speaker 2: Oh all right.

707
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 1: I was Daryl's class, Yeah right, yeah, and we're the

708
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 1: reason Workers now, Daryl, Daryl saw it the whole thing.

709
00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:52,960
Speaker 2: Knows that place pretty well, he does.

710
00:36:53,800 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 1: Now we're good maze me and Daryl. So yeah, But

711
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,279
Speaker 1: it's interesting that people can have an influence on people

712
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,400
Speaker 1: like that and that influence stays you the rest of

713
00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:03,279
Speaker 1: your life. Do you think that you use the word

714
00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:08,280
Speaker 1: care on about in five different sentences what you care about?

715
00:37:10,760 --> 00:37:16,640
Speaker 1: Is that that a big factor in Jim Chalmers's life

716
00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:19,719
Speaker 1: in terms of everything you do. Forget about family, not

717
00:37:19,840 --> 00:37:21,560
Speaker 1: I mean just put aside family, but we're not talk

718
00:37:21,600 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 1: about political life, that caring side of you. Because what

719
00:37:26,280 --> 00:37:29,719
Speaker 1: Anthony Albaniz he said exactly the same things differently, but

720
00:37:29,760 --> 00:37:32,279
Speaker 1: he's the same sort of character, it seems to me.

721
00:37:32,840 --> 00:37:36,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, think about his up his upbringing. I think

722
00:37:36,360 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: it says something pretty good about Australia that you can

723
00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:44,360
Speaker 2: have Anthony from his background me from Logan City in

724
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:47,960
Speaker 2: those two jobs. And I think that does of course,

725
00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:50,480
Speaker 2: that helps form the way you think about the world.

726
00:37:50,560 --> 00:37:56,080
Speaker 2: You know, you think about Paul's Paul Keating's mentor a

727
00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:59,879
Speaker 2: controversial guy called Jack Lang, former premier of This Star.

728
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,880
Speaker 2: You know, I think he said to him at some point,

729
00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 2: if you have the ability to speak up for other people,

730
00:38:05,600 --> 00:38:08,240
Speaker 2: then you have a responsibility to speak up for other people.

731
00:38:08,320 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: And that's how I see I'm sure that's how Anthony

732
00:38:10,360 --> 00:38:11,920
Speaker 2: sees his role on how I see mine as well.

733
00:38:11,960 --> 00:38:14,799
Speaker 2: And you think about the best thing about Australia is

734
00:38:14,840 --> 00:38:17,440
Speaker 2: that we've got this sense of mobility. You know, we

735
00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 2: don't have these kind of it is still possible in

736
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:23,680
Speaker 2: Australia in a way that it's not possible in every

737
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,200
Speaker 2: country for someone to come from nothing to make something

738
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:31,680
Speaker 2: of themselves. And that's probably the thing I care about most.

739
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:36,200
Speaker 2: You know, this idea that in a good country like ours,

740
00:38:36,239 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 2: people from Logan City or other areas like Logan City

741
00:38:40,840 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 2: can be successful, that there's no kind of barrier to that.

742
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,359
Speaker 2: That's probably the thing I care about the most. And

743
00:38:46,640 --> 00:38:49,840
Speaker 2: of course the way we grew up Anthony, yourself me,

744
00:38:50,680 --> 00:38:53,760
Speaker 2: of course that shapes you. And the beautiful thing about

745
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 2: the brother that looked out for you and Norbert who

746
00:38:56,800 --> 00:39:00,719
Speaker 2: looked out for me, is sometimes that am needs a

747
00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:05,680
Speaker 2: bit of structure, and especially if you're not from you know,

748
00:39:06,120 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 2: a family where these sorts of things are discussed at

749
00:39:08,719 --> 00:39:09,640
Speaker 2: the dinner table.

750
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,520
Speaker 1: Which is natural consequences of how you grew up.

751
00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, you want someone to help you give a bit

752
00:39:13,680 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 2: of structure to that. And that's what great teachers can

753
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:18,360
Speaker 2: do and great mentors can do. And one of the

754
00:39:18,360 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: things I've noticed in the business community, you would have

755
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 2: noticed it too. Is this sense of mentoring has become

756
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:26,600
Speaker 2: a really wonderful kind of I'm sure you have people

757
00:39:26,640 --> 00:39:30,120
Speaker 2: who rely heavily on you for your advice. That's become

758
00:39:30,160 --> 00:39:33,600
Speaker 2: a really good thing because giving structure that ambition is important.

759
00:39:33,719 --> 00:39:35,440
Speaker 1: I think that's a really good point. You mean before,

760
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,400
Speaker 1: if you have the ability, you have the responsibility. You know,

761
00:39:38,600 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: if you have the ability to do something, then you've

762
00:39:41,360 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: got to pay that forward. Yeah, I mean, like, let's

763
00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 1: I don't want to get too weird about it, but

764
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,920
Speaker 1: like if it's God given or something, you have the

765
00:39:48,000 --> 00:39:51,440
Speaker 1: gift that you maybe others don't have, and then you

766
00:39:51,920 --> 00:39:54,120
Speaker 1: have a responsibility to use it in a way that's

767
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 1: good for everyone, right, And that's that's your philosophy. They're not.

768
00:39:57,239 --> 00:39:57,719
Speaker 1: I'm getting it.

769
00:39:57,960 --> 00:39:58,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

770
00:39:58,440 --> 00:40:02,960
Speaker 1: So finished school? Did you attend university?

771
00:40:03,120 --> 00:40:05,839
Speaker 2: Yeap went to Griffith University in Brisbane.

772
00:40:05,960 --> 00:40:07,000
Speaker 1: And what did you study there?

773
00:40:07,520 --> 00:40:10,560
Speaker 2: I actually ended up doing a politics degree, but it's

774
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,240
Speaker 2: in the Commerce school, so a major in public policy

775
00:40:13,480 --> 00:40:17,840
Speaker 2: and a lot of international relations, a lot of politics.

776
00:40:17,840 --> 00:40:19,560
Speaker 2: It was kind of a new degree. There's a lot

777
00:40:19,560 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: of mixing and matching. So I did effectively an arts

778
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,560
Speaker 2: degree in government, but then I did my honors year

779
00:40:25,640 --> 00:40:28,320
Speaker 2: was in the Commerce School, and then I went and

780
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:30,120
Speaker 2: worked for a bit in the Queensland Public Service, and

781
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,520
Speaker 2: then I went and did a PhD at the Australian

782
00:40:32,600 --> 00:40:33,800
Speaker 2: National University in Canberra.

783
00:40:34,320 --> 00:40:40,760
Speaker 1: And I probably will know with your PhD have featured

784
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:44,680
Speaker 1: largely Paul Keating. Yeah, and where did you pick that?

785
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:49,239
Speaker 2: I became obsessed with this idea of leadership in the

786
00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:54,200
Speaker 2: Australian context, you know, I found, you know, there's this

787
00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:56,360
Speaker 2: whole not to kind of get into it in a

788
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: kind of an academic way, but there's this whole literature

789
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 2: about how prime ministers exercised their power. And I became

790
00:41:03,239 --> 00:41:06,239
Speaker 2: very fascinated by that, interested in that, and so I

791
00:41:06,360 --> 00:41:08,520
Speaker 2: used Paul as a way of telling a story about

792
00:41:08,520 --> 00:41:13,160
Speaker 2: what the Australian prime ministership looks like. But I knew

793
00:41:13,320 --> 00:41:14,640
Speaker 2: I went to the a and you to do the

794
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:18,560
Speaker 2: PhD because I wanted to work at Griffith University. I

795
00:41:18,560 --> 00:41:21,719
Speaker 2: wanted to teach there, and the best way often is

796
00:41:21,760 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 2: to not do everything at the one university. And so

797
00:41:23,800 --> 00:41:25,399
Speaker 2: they advised me, they said, if you want to come

798
00:41:25,440 --> 00:41:28,399
Speaker 2: back here, you a PhD from somewhere else and try

799
00:41:28,440 --> 00:41:32,120
Speaker 2: and come back. But I knew pretty quickly in my PhD,

800
00:41:32,200 --> 00:41:34,359
Speaker 2: I was doing it full time briefly, and then I

801
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:36,880
Speaker 2: just I decided I wanted to work and finish at

802
00:41:36,880 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 2: part time. I knew that that wasn't that I wanted

803
00:41:39,920 --> 00:41:44,359
Speaker 2: to be involved in exercising power, not just writing about it.

804
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:50,080
Speaker 2: And the first time I met Paul Keating was to

805
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:52,040
Speaker 2: talk to him about my thesis, and he said to me,

806
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:54,000
Speaker 2: I remember the very first time I ever met him,

807
00:41:54,040 --> 00:41:57,920
Speaker 2: he said, you should spend your time exercising power rather

808
00:41:57,960 --> 00:42:01,480
Speaker 2: than thinking about it. I still finished the PhD, and

809
00:42:01,719 --> 00:42:03,880
Speaker 2: I'm glad that I did. It was a wonderful experience.

810
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 2: But I knew that I wanted to do a job

811
00:42:07,640 --> 00:42:09,560
Speaker 2: like the job I'm doing now right now.

812
00:42:09,960 --> 00:42:14,480
Speaker 1: And we talked earlier about about earlier before about you

813
00:42:14,560 --> 00:42:16,360
Speaker 1: being the deputy Jutors of staff and the chief of

814
00:42:16,400 --> 00:42:21,120
Speaker 1: staff to the Treasurer at the time. Maybe you explain

815
00:42:21,200 --> 00:42:23,239
Speaker 1: what that job actually is because most people don't know

816
00:42:23,280 --> 00:42:23,759
Speaker 1: what that means.

817
00:42:23,840 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's running a big office for the Treasurer

818
00:42:26,320 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: and doing a lot of the interacting with the stakeholders,

819
00:42:29,560 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 2: the regulators, the Treasury Department, and so a job that

820
00:42:34,840 --> 00:42:40,160
Speaker 2: combined some management, some strategy, a lot of stakeholders, and

821
00:42:41,719 --> 00:42:45,040
Speaker 2: when I came into this job as treasurer, I found

822
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,160
Speaker 2: that it was a real gift that I had spent

823
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: so many years in and around the portfolio, because I

824
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:53,400
Speaker 2: knew how everything came together. I knew where the leavers were,

825
00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:55,640
Speaker 2: I knew what it was like to interact with a

826
00:42:55,640 --> 00:42:57,759
Speaker 2: big treasury department and with all of the regulators and

827
00:42:57,800 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: all the rest of it, and so it felt like

828
00:42:59,200 --> 00:43:02,720
Speaker 2: a big advantage that I had. I don't think someone

829
00:43:02,760 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: will correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think

830
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: anyone's coming into the job of being treasurer having run

831
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,040
Speaker 2: a treasurer's office before. And there's obviously a lot of

832
00:43:10,040 --> 00:43:12,800
Speaker 2: commentary about the best kind of experience being the treasurer,

833
00:43:12,880 --> 00:43:15,640
Speaker 2: but I have found that experience to be really helpful.

834
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:22,239
Speaker 1: I recalling about, excuse me, I recalling about I might

835
00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 1: have gat the days wrong, but it might have been

836
00:43:23,680 --> 00:43:29,799
Speaker 1: about two thousand and ten twelve. No, it was during

837
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:35,959
Speaker 1: the period when Bill Shorten was got when he lost

838
00:43:35,960 --> 00:43:41,880
Speaker 1: the unlosable election to Scott Morrison, and Chris Bohen was

839
00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: the shadow Minister for Treasury, and I think Chris bin

840
00:43:45,480 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 1: was a treasure for a very short period was a

841
00:43:47,960 --> 00:43:51,840
Speaker 1: couple of months, not very long. But then the Liberals

842
00:43:51,840 --> 00:43:54,840
Speaker 1: got in, and but then he stayed a shadow treasure

843
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:58,040
Speaker 1: for a long time. And I remember having a conversation

844
00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:00,920
Speaker 1: with Graham richardson who's I might add as one of

845
00:44:00,960 --> 00:44:04,439
Speaker 1: your big fans. And Richard told me, he said, mate,

846
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: there's a bloke in Queensland who I think will be

847
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:16,440
Speaker 1: will make a great at the time shadow treasurer because

848
00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:20,480
Speaker 1: the Liberals were in. And I said, what's his name

849
00:44:21,239 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 1: to me? His name I was having lunch of Richard

850
00:44:23,080 --> 00:44:26,880
Speaker 1: and it wouldn't tell me. But he raved on about

851
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:33,719
Speaker 1: you for ages. And of course along comes young Jim

852
00:44:33,840 --> 00:44:40,120
Speaker 1: Chalmers and becomes a treasurer of the country and right

853
00:44:40,200 --> 00:44:43,239
Speaker 1: to Riche's playbook, by the way, And I'm not saying

854
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:47,160
Speaker 1: that he manipulated the situation, but he does have a playbook.

855
00:44:48,040 --> 00:44:50,279
Speaker 2: He's well known for it around the place.

856
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 1: And rich O is close to Paul, or was close

857
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 1: to Paul, and he is more to the right of

858
00:44:55,600 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: politics of Labor Party. If we could sort of split

859
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,360
Speaker 1: Labor into, you know, one side and the other side,

860
00:45:03,640 --> 00:45:05,840
Speaker 1: where do you see it? Because Richo is backing you,

861
00:45:06,000 --> 00:45:07,919
Speaker 1: does that mean that you're on the right hand side

862
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:08,720
Speaker 1: or the left hand.

863
00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:13,640
Speaker 2: Side I have. I have come from the we would

864
00:45:13,680 --> 00:45:14,759
Speaker 2: call it the moderate.

865
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,279
Speaker 1: Side, right right, right.

866
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:22,839
Speaker 2: That's mattering less and less, I think over time, and

867
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:25,480
Speaker 2: you know, people have said to me before I ran

868
00:45:25,520 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: into rich and he said a kind thing about you.

869
00:45:27,239 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 2: I appreciate that, you know, in politics, having people vouch

870
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:32,839
Speaker 2: for you and say nice things for you.

871
00:45:32,880 --> 00:45:36,040
Speaker 1: Especially rich because he's not just a he's not a suck,

872
00:45:36,120 --> 00:45:38,040
Speaker 1: you know, I mean like he'll say what he thinks.

873
00:45:38,239 --> 00:45:42,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, So I appreciate that. And I'm sort of

874
00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:44,120
Speaker 2: broadly from the part of the party that Richo and

875
00:45:44,480 --> 00:45:48,400
Speaker 2: Paul Keating were from. But there aren't big count of

876
00:45:48,440 --> 00:45:52,560
Speaker 2: ideological differences between the groups in the in the Labor Party,

877
00:45:51,920 --> 00:45:56,360
Speaker 2: not not, not really, and so that that stuff, that

878
00:45:56,440 --> 00:45:59,400
Speaker 2: factional stuff has mattered less and less. And some of

879
00:45:59,440 --> 00:46:02,480
Speaker 2: my closest relationships in the Parliamentary Party, the person I

880
00:46:02,520 --> 00:46:05,399
Speaker 2: work closely with is Kadie Gallaher. I'm from the right,

881
00:46:05,440 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 2: she's from the left, and so those factional differences aren't

882
00:46:08,160 --> 00:46:09,000
Speaker 2: really material.

883
00:46:09,800 --> 00:46:12,080
Speaker 1: It's but because I did want to talk to you

884
00:46:12,080 --> 00:46:17,520
Speaker 1: about policy then and strategic strategic moves by the Labor

885
00:46:17,560 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: Party relative to policy, how does it get worked out?

886
00:46:21,640 --> 00:46:24,280
Speaker 1: I know you guys vote differently to the way Liberal

887
00:46:24,280 --> 00:46:27,840
Speaker 1: Party vote within your in your own party. Generally speaking,

888
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:31,000
Speaker 1: you all decide whatever the majority sides is what the

889
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,200
Speaker 1: group that goes with You don't sort of argue left

890
00:46:34,200 --> 00:46:37,799
Speaker 1: and right, just go with it. How does how does

891
00:46:38,239 --> 00:46:40,120
Speaker 1: you know? Like you guys are announcing lots of policies

892
00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,440
Speaker 1: as election period, which is normal, you have policies outside

893
00:46:44,480 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: election period during the people. When you guys are in government,

894
00:46:48,640 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 1: how does strategic decisions get made? Does it from the

895
00:46:53,160 --> 00:46:56,200
Speaker 1: PM or is it from Is there a group of

896
00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:57,480
Speaker 1: people we don't ever get to see.

897
00:46:57,600 --> 00:47:00,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's largely the cabinet. So that's I think

898
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:04,440
Speaker 2: twenty four people are in the cabinet, so the senior

899
00:47:04,480 --> 00:47:08,879
Speaker 2: ministers and the PM, and different governments operate differently. Some

900
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 2: of them are very top down and some of them

901
00:47:12,440 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 2: are a bit more inclusive and anthony deliberately and ways

902
00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 2: that we appreciate is at the kind of collegiate inclusive end.

903
00:47:20,640 --> 00:47:22,600
Speaker 2: And so cabinet plays a big role. We've also got

904
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:24,920
Speaker 2: this group called the Expenditure Review Committee which puts the

905
00:47:24,920 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: budget together. So that's a pretty influential.

906
00:47:27,440 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 1: Group that they're made up a labor party people.

907
00:47:30,040 --> 00:47:31,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all out of the cabinet, so it's about

908
00:47:33,120 --> 00:47:33,880
Speaker 2: half the cabinet.

909
00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:35,200
Speaker 1: That's everybody making a bid.

910
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:37,480
Speaker 2: I guess everyone comes and makes a bid and we

911
00:47:37,560 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 2: do the best we can to kind of make it

912
00:47:38,920 --> 00:47:41,000
Speaker 2: all that up, make it fit and make it work.

913
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:45,160
Speaker 2: So those kind of group, those groups are probably the

914
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:47,839
Speaker 2: most influential groups. But obviously in every group, the Prime

915
00:47:47,840 --> 00:47:49,880
Speaker 2: Minister is going to be the most influential voice.

916
00:47:49,920 --> 00:47:50,920
Speaker 1: So here's a captain's call.

917
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:55,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, but he, to his credit, he would be one

918
00:47:55,520 --> 00:48:00,000
Speaker 2: of the leaders in my lifetime who's been least reliant

919
00:48:00,640 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 2: on the kind of my way or the highway. You know,

920
00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:09,919
Speaker 2: his strength comes from the way that he utilizes the team.

921
00:48:11,080 --> 00:48:14,319
Speaker 2: And whether you're in football or business or all kinds

922
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,120
Speaker 2: of work walks of life, there are different kinds of leaders,

923
00:48:17,320 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 2: and Anthony draws strength from the collective and that makes

924
00:48:21,160 --> 00:48:23,279
Speaker 2: him a little bit unusual, but I think makes him

925
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,800
Speaker 2: more effective and as a senior minister in his government,

926
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:28,080
Speaker 2: and the others say this too, we talk about it

927
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:30,920
Speaker 2: all the time. We're very lucky because he's less of

928
00:48:30,920 --> 00:48:32,879
Speaker 2: a my way or the highway guy than what other

929
00:48:32,960 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 2: leaders might have been. Certainly, his predecessor, Scott Morrison was

930
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:40,120
Speaker 2: a very centralizing figure, I think, to his detriment, and

931
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:43,000
Speaker 2: Anthony's got a much more collegiate way of running the show.

932
00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:47,640
Speaker 1: So and that's Anthony because one of the things I

933
00:48:47,640 --> 00:48:54,799
Speaker 1: remember happened. And I notice you're completely different to your predecessor,

934
00:48:54,920 --> 00:48:59,720
Speaker 1: So that is Chris Bowen as shadow treasurer. Jim Chalmers

935
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:03,359
Speaker 1: ispletely different in lots of ways. Well you know, you're

936
00:49:03,400 --> 00:49:06,080
Speaker 1: all unique, but in lots of ways. But one of

937
00:49:06,160 --> 00:49:09,520
Speaker 1: the things, you know is my own personal theory. But

938
00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:11,879
Speaker 1: one of the things I think that was really made

939
00:49:11,880 --> 00:49:17,600
Speaker 1: it tough for Bill in that election period was Chris

940
00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 1: Bowen's view on franking, credits and negative gearing, and they

941
00:49:24,200 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: and their big policy changes. And by the way, I

942
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: will say up front, I have criticized negative gearing as

943
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:34,160
Speaker 1: an economic policy, but the fact that it's here, I

944
00:49:34,200 --> 00:49:37,640
Speaker 1: would criticize changing it because it's too embedded in the austrain

945
00:49:37,719 --> 00:49:42,880
Speaker 1: system apart from being politically diabolically diabolical if you do

946
00:49:43,040 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: propose a change that And I actually think that those

947
00:49:48,600 --> 00:49:52,400
Speaker 1: big calls, those sort of thing Trump tell us but

948
00:49:52,480 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 1: those big calls in Australia at least are really tough,

949
00:49:57,000 --> 00:50:00,759
Speaker 1: hard to make. And I see you play a much

950
00:50:02,280 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: You play a much more I'm not going to say

951
00:50:05,000 --> 00:50:11,239
Speaker 1: safe game, but much straighter down the line game. Do you,

952
00:50:11,400 --> 00:50:14,040
Speaker 1: or though, at any point in your career, say, you

953
00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:16,640
Speaker 1: know what, there's one thing I really hate about the

954
00:50:16,640 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: economy that needs to be fixed because it's unfair for

955
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:22,000
Speaker 1: whatever the reason it's unfair. Do you ever get to

956
00:50:22,040 --> 00:50:23,319
Speaker 1: that point where you just want to do it or

957
00:50:23,360 --> 00:50:25,920
Speaker 1: you just have to keep looking back at what the

958
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,040
Speaker 1: poles say, looking what the what your consumers want, looking

959
00:50:29,040 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: about what your audience wants, looking aback what your voters want,

960
00:50:31,760 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 1: looking back what Australians want. They've got you there, we

961
00:50:36,080 --> 00:50:38,880
Speaker 1: saw it. Doesn't do it today, doesn't wheel back on

962
00:50:38,920 --> 00:50:41,799
Speaker 1: the five days work, we go back to work type

963
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 1: of thing. Is Australia different to other places in the

964
00:50:45,680 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 1: world or is it because no one actually gets a

965
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,320
Speaker 1: really big mandate to make these changes.

966
00:50:49,920 --> 00:50:51,880
Speaker 2: I think we are making some big changes, you know.

967
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:54,360
Speaker 2: The energy transformation is a big change. Some of the

968
00:50:54,360 --> 00:50:57,480
Speaker 2: ways that we've repaired the budget have been big shifts.

969
00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,359
Speaker 1: But I'm talking about when it's when an individual can

970
00:51:01,400 --> 00:51:03,680
Speaker 1: actually see how that will actually affect me.

971
00:51:04,000 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I understand, you know, not.

972
00:51:06,440 --> 00:51:10,919
Speaker 1: The other transformative stuff, not the economic policy transformed stuff

973
00:51:10,920 --> 00:51:13,960
Speaker 1: I'm talking about, where people go, Wow, that's going to

974
00:51:14,000 --> 00:51:16,520
Speaker 1: affect me. Yeah, I'm going to lose my negative gearing whatever.

975
00:51:16,600 --> 00:51:19,239
Speaker 2: Well. I think the closest we've come to a big,

976
00:51:19,280 --> 00:51:24,879
Speaker 2: gutsy call that has changed people's prospects is when we

977
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 2: decided we were going to rewrite the Stage three income

978
00:51:27,880 --> 00:51:30,640
Speaker 2: tax cuts. Yeah, and we got a lot of grief politically,

979
00:51:30,680 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 2: but we knew it was the right thing to do,

980
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: and it turned out well for us. People broadly supported

981
00:51:35,960 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 2: the changes we're making. So that required some courage and

982
00:51:38,680 --> 00:51:40,480
Speaker 2: I had a direct impact on people.

983
00:51:40,200 --> 00:51:41,759
Speaker 1: Because it was going to ask you, that's where I'm

984
00:51:41,800 --> 00:51:46,759
Speaker 1: getting to. I'm going to say, because you're person, that

985
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:51,880
Speaker 1: person who inspired you when you were seventeen, sixteen, seven, eighteen,

986
00:51:52,600 --> 00:51:54,239
Speaker 1: one of the things he would inspired you would be

987
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:55,880
Speaker 1: would have been one of the things he would have

988
00:51:55,880 --> 00:51:57,640
Speaker 1: said to you. If he was here today, you'd probably say,

989
00:51:57,760 --> 00:52:02,239
Speaker 1: Jim be courageous. Yeah, he does, just because you know courageous.

990
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:05,000
Speaker 1: And what I'm trying to get to here is sometimes

991
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: we've got to listen to what the people are saying.

992
00:52:07,640 --> 00:52:10,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think every decision you make in government

993
00:52:10,800 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 2: you have to work out can I bring the people

994
00:52:12,719 --> 00:52:15,040
Speaker 2: with us on this? And I think that gets harder

995
00:52:15,040 --> 00:52:17,319
Speaker 2: and harder that the media environment's a bit more fraud.

996
00:52:17,360 --> 00:52:19,240
Speaker 2: That's not an excuse, but it's a reality.

997
00:52:19,239 --> 00:52:19,920
Speaker 1: It's a reality.

998
00:52:20,480 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: And so I mean, Paul's well known for his public

999
00:52:25,160 --> 00:52:27,880
Speaker 2: advice and his private advice to us is to is

1000
00:52:27,920 --> 00:52:32,680
Speaker 2: to do more and to do it quicker. And often

1001
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:38,080
Speaker 2: that's my instinct too. But my belief is that Australians

1002
00:52:38,160 --> 00:52:41,040
Speaker 2: they don't like big things done quickly, they don't like

1003
00:52:41,160 --> 00:52:44,200
Speaker 2: little things done slowly, but they'll cop big things done

1004
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,399
Speaker 2: slowly or big things done methodically in a considered way.

1005
00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:49,839
Speaker 2: And so that's that's the space I like to operate in.

1006
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:54,360
Speaker 2: So so energy, some of the tax changes, some of

1007
00:52:54,400 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: the ways we improve the budget, that's that's that's I

1008
00:52:58,080 --> 00:53:00,600
Speaker 2: think that's how you get things done in this now.

1009
00:53:00,960 --> 00:53:04,040
Speaker 2: But I say that as an admirer of Paul had

1010
00:53:04,239 --> 00:53:07,280
Speaker 2: a bit more of a crash through or crash style

1011
00:53:07,440 --> 00:53:09,479
Speaker 2: with some of these big reforms, and they paid off

1012
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: magnificently for Australia. But I think what we are, what

1013
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:19,879
Speaker 2: we are doing basically is we are reformers, but we're

1014
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,040
Speaker 2: not revolutionaries. And everything that we do you have to

1015
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:26,000
Speaker 2: make the case over a period of time so that

1016
00:53:26,000 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 2: you can bring the people with you.

1017
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,800
Speaker 1: And that's very interesting that you said that about Paul Keating.

1018
00:53:31,600 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: What did it happen? Do you think how much of

1019
00:53:33,600 --> 00:53:37,680
Speaker 1: that though, relies on back in those days and also

1020
00:53:37,760 --> 00:53:42,120
Speaker 1: under the Howard period bigger mandates, like a bigger majority

1021
00:53:42,440 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: as opposed to having to lean back into the other parties.

1022
00:53:46,360 --> 00:53:48,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think politics is more fragmented now.

1023
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:51,080
Speaker 1: And you didn't have even it didn't have a Teal

1024
00:53:51,200 --> 00:53:52,120
Speaker 1: for example those days.

1025
00:53:52,160 --> 00:53:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, and they I mean they had they had the

1026
00:53:55,200 --> 00:53:59,160
Speaker 2: beginnings of the Democrats. But yeah, broadly there was a

1027
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,640
Speaker 2: kind of a more US two parties and it wasn't

1028
00:54:02,719 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 2: quite winner take all. You still needed the Senate on things,

1029
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,600
Speaker 2: but it was more winner takes all than it is now.

1030
00:54:09,120 --> 00:54:12,280
Speaker 2: And the media environment environent is much more fragmented now,

1031
00:54:12,840 --> 00:54:15,880
Speaker 2: and so the operating environment's very different. But none of

1032
00:54:15,920 --> 00:54:20,680
Speaker 2: that is a sort of a you know, we are

1033
00:54:20,719 --> 00:54:25,959
Speaker 2: making good progress despite the fragmentation of our politics, and

1034
00:54:26,600 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 2: it's one of the many ways that our politics is

1035
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,840
Speaker 2: different now to the politics of Paul's day, as successful

1036
00:54:31,880 --> 00:54:32,400
Speaker 2: as he was.

1037
00:54:33,000 --> 00:54:36,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, he was successful, and it's hard to sort of

1038
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: base yourself upon him other than sentiment, in a sentiment

1039
00:54:40,719 --> 00:54:45,880
Speaker 1: way only perhaps because you know, people say governments like courage,

1040
00:54:47,320 --> 00:54:51,759
Speaker 1: Governments don't like courage, Governments lack mandates, And it's easy

1041
00:54:51,800 --> 00:54:55,279
Speaker 1: to say someone's not being very courageous if all that's

1042
00:54:55,280 --> 00:54:56,880
Speaker 1: going to happen is he's just going to get yelled

1043
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 1: at and pushed down and lose election, which means can't

1044
00:55:00,239 --> 00:55:02,600
Speaker 1: ever do anything if they're losing election. It's all about

1045
00:55:03,160 --> 00:55:04,960
Speaker 1: let me get in there first and let me see

1046
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:07,080
Speaker 1: what I can do after that. Yeah, I mean, and

1047
00:55:07,840 --> 00:55:11,239
Speaker 1: you can be then criticized as on being courageous enough.

1048
00:55:11,760 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: And for someone from where you come from, growing up

1049
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:17,480
Speaker 1: with how you grew up, probably one of the worst

1050
00:55:17,480 --> 00:55:19,680
Speaker 1: things in you're a queens zone to someone to say

1051
00:55:20,360 --> 00:55:22,080
Speaker 1: the worst thing is for you to be confronted with this,

1052
00:55:22,280 --> 00:55:24,920
Speaker 1: if for someone to think that you don't have courage,

1053
00:55:25,719 --> 00:55:28,440
Speaker 1: because courage means you don't have any conviction. If you

1054
00:55:28,480 --> 00:55:31,040
Speaker 1: don't have courage, you don't have conviction. And it seems

1055
00:55:31,040 --> 00:55:33,680
Speaker 1: to me that that's something that you put a lot

1056
00:55:33,680 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: of weight on your conviction.

1057
00:55:35,520 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's fair.

1058
00:55:36,840 --> 00:55:40,960
Speaker 1: And therefore you must have courage. It must be frustrating

1059
00:55:41,000 --> 00:55:42,359
Speaker 1: for you, though, well.

1060
00:55:42,280 --> 00:55:45,520
Speaker 2: I think we're making more change than people give us

1061
00:55:45,520 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: credit for. And you know what we're doing to transform

1062
00:55:50,840 --> 00:55:56,040
Speaker 2: the way that our economy is powered, cleaner and cheaper,

1063
00:55:56,080 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: more reliable energy. That takes courage. Some of the decisions

1064
00:55:59,560 --> 00:56:01,840
Speaker 2: we've taken the budget, some of the decisions we've taken

1065
00:56:02,640 --> 00:56:07,640
Speaker 2: in economic reform, competition policy that has been courageous. But

1066
00:56:07,719 --> 00:56:09,200
Speaker 2: what we've tried to do is to do it in

1067
00:56:09,239 --> 00:56:12,239
Speaker 2: a considered, methodical way where we make the case and

1068
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,440
Speaker 2: try and bring people with us, because, as you rightly say,

1069
00:56:15,960 --> 00:56:18,120
Speaker 2: you can have all of the carriage in the world.

1070
00:56:18,160 --> 00:56:24,600
Speaker 2: If you don't, if you don't win and get re elected,

1071
00:56:25,200 --> 00:56:26,360
Speaker 2: then you're no use to anyone.

1072
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: It's a waste of time. Prime Minister pretty much to

1073
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:40,080
Speaker 1: his regret in some respects border place up on the

1074
00:56:40,120 --> 00:56:44,200
Speaker 1: Central Coast, and he's going to get married sometimes this year.

1075
00:56:44,239 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: I think perhaps good luck to him, and I congratulated

1076
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:55,400
Speaker 1: him on that. If he says, mate, that was a

1077
00:56:55,520 --> 00:56:59,480
Speaker 1: tough period. Glad we won. We're in an already government.

1078
00:56:59,520 --> 00:57:02,080
Speaker 1: The hang out with the greens of where you have

1079
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: to hang out with I, I don't know where you've got

1080
00:57:03,400 --> 00:57:08,879
Speaker 1: to hang out with. I'm out. I'm gonna I don't

1081
00:57:08,880 --> 00:57:10,880
Speaker 1: think it strange would like to know this. I'm not

1082
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 1: going to do this anymore. I just want to hang

1083
00:57:13,120 --> 00:57:16,080
Speaker 1: out with Jodie and just live my life. Way up

1084
00:57:16,120 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 1: there here available for you whenever you want to talk

1085
00:57:19,240 --> 00:57:21,080
Speaker 1: to me, would you put your hat in the ring.

1086
00:57:21,720 --> 00:57:25,400
Speaker 2: I can't see that situation happening, you know, I can't

1087
00:57:25,400 --> 00:57:26,000
Speaker 2: see it happening.

1088
00:57:26,440 --> 00:57:28,520
Speaker 1: But I'm just saying because I'm trying to work. You

1089
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:32,080
Speaker 1: said something very interesting. Before you've got to be as

1090
00:57:32,160 --> 00:57:34,240
Speaker 1: court porkeeting sit you've got to be prepared exercise power

1091
00:57:35,840 --> 00:57:38,880
Speaker 1: and the ultimate ultimate power. Here's the PM, as you said,

1092
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:43,880
Speaker 1: that's how your caucus words works. Could we be looking

1093
00:57:43,920 --> 00:57:46,240
Speaker 1: at the next Prime Minister at some stage?

1094
00:57:46,880 --> 00:57:48,680
Speaker 2: I think the best way to think about it, or

1095
00:57:48,720 --> 00:57:51,200
Speaker 2: the way that I think about it, is if you

1096
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,560
Speaker 2: had said to me in that period we're thinking about

1097
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:58,480
Speaker 2: knocking around Logan City as a teenager, that you get

1098
00:57:58,520 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: the opportunity to be the Treasurer of Australia, the job

1099
00:58:01,160 --> 00:58:04,840
Speaker 2: that Paul cool. Then I'm really happy with that. I mean,

1100
00:58:04,840 --> 00:58:07,640
Speaker 2: I genuinely am I don't. I mean, from time to

1101
00:58:07,680 --> 00:58:09,480
Speaker 2: time someone will ask me a question like the one

1102
00:58:09,480 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: that you just asked me. But my preference, my expectation,

1103
00:58:14,440 --> 00:58:17,800
Speaker 2: is that we win the election, that Anthony's the Prime

1104
00:58:17,840 --> 00:58:19,840
Speaker 2: Minister all the way through, and that I get to

1105
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: be the treasurer because you have to have the humility

1106
00:58:23,720 --> 00:58:25,960
Speaker 2: that says, where can I make the best contribution to

1107
00:58:26,000 --> 00:58:28,680
Speaker 2: this team? That our best team, the best team that

1108
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,680
Speaker 2: we can put on the park is Anthony, is PM,

1109
00:58:32,160 --> 00:58:34,960
Speaker 2: the other colleagues where they are. And I think I'm

1110
00:58:35,000 --> 00:58:37,360
Speaker 2: making a good contribution as treasurer, and so I would

1111
00:58:37,360 --> 00:58:40,320
Speaker 2: happily keep doing that. If you and I hung out

1112
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:43,480
Speaker 2: on my back deck in twenty or thirty years time.

1113
00:58:44,040 --> 00:58:47,600
Speaker 1: Always focus because treasurers doesn't get too well.

1114
00:58:47,680 --> 00:58:49,240
Speaker 2: But if we add a cap of tea on the

1115
00:58:49,240 --> 00:58:52,160
Speaker 2: back deck in twenty or thirty years time, and I

1116
00:58:52,240 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: had been the treasurer for a couple of terms, I

1117
00:58:55,280 --> 00:58:57,720
Speaker 2: would be very very happy with that, very happy with that.

1118
00:58:58,120 --> 00:59:01,360
Speaker 1: And I think that's a fair answer. But you know,

1119
00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:03,240
Speaker 1: I reckon Rich, I'd be prett happy if you became

1120
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:03,920
Speaker 1: the Prime minister.

1121
00:59:04,680 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: Well, Richo is a big supporter of Anthony's, absolutely very

1122
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:08,120
Speaker 2: big supporter.

1123
00:59:08,160 --> 00:59:11,760
Speaker 1: But he's also a big support of yours. I gave

1124
00:59:11,920 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 1: I asked for you to give me four questions for

1125
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:20,080
Speaker 1: your counterpart in the Liberal Party, Angus, which I asked him,

1126
00:59:20,240 --> 00:59:24,040
Speaker 1: and he's got some questions for you, questions ready. And

1127
00:59:24,200 --> 00:59:25,920
Speaker 1: by the way, these are without notice. He doesn't know

1128
00:59:25,960 --> 00:59:28,360
Speaker 1: what the questions are. In fact, only saw the question

1129
00:59:28,360 --> 00:59:31,120
Speaker 1: of itself this morning. So question number one, he said,

1130
00:59:31,200 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: You've said in the past, that's six long months in

1131
00:59:33,840 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 1: the private sector. Convince you that your efforts were best

1132
00:59:36,480 --> 00:59:40,520
Speaker 1: spent in public policy. Can you explain why you decided

1133
00:59:40,520 --> 00:59:44,560
Speaker 1: that and what you didn't like about the private sector.

1134
00:59:45,280 --> 00:59:46,960
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, I do like the private sector,

1135
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:50,240
Speaker 2: and I respect and admire the people who create the

1136
00:59:50,560 --> 00:59:53,520
Speaker 2: wealth and the opportunities and the jobs in our society.

1137
00:59:53,560 --> 00:59:57,160
Speaker 2: I'm a huge admirer of the risk takers and the

1138
00:59:57,160 --> 01:00:01,880
Speaker 2: wealth creators. For me, I have always wanted to work

1139
01:00:01,880 --> 01:00:04,840
Speaker 2: for the country and for as long as I can remember,

1140
01:00:04,920 --> 01:00:07,120
Speaker 2: as far back as you and I have talked about today,

1141
01:00:07,920 --> 01:00:11,000
Speaker 2: you know the idea that I get to work on

1142
01:00:11,080 --> 01:00:14,560
Speaker 2: the economy in a way that is for everyone in

1143
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,680
Speaker 2: Australia rather than in an individual enterprise. You know, that's

1144
01:00:18,720 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 2: always been appealing to me, and I understand to be

1145
01:00:21,600 --> 01:00:24,680
Speaker 2: fair to Angus, to be charitable to Angus. Everyone makes

1146
01:00:24,720 --> 01:00:29,360
Speaker 2: different decisions and about where they can make the best contribution.

1147
01:00:29,520 --> 01:00:32,440
Speaker 2: But for me, I think the best contribution I can

1148
01:00:32,480 --> 01:00:36,880
Speaker 2: make is the one that that I'm making, and I

1149
01:00:36,920 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 2: can do that respecting the immense primary role that the

1150
01:00:43,280 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 2: private sector plays in our economy.

1151
01:00:47,000 --> 01:00:50,480
Speaker 1: Angers is the second question is small businesses after the

1152
01:00:50,600 --> 01:00:53,080
Speaker 1: last three years have copped it. Energy bills are up,

1153
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:55,920
Speaker 1: wage bills have gone up. Through your industrial relationships.

1154
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:58,160
Speaker 2: Are all the questions that Angus was desperately hoping to

1155
01:00:58,200 --> 01:01:00,080
Speaker 2: ask me a question time, but Peter didn't woo.

1156
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:05,120
Speaker 1: If you ask the migration reforms and now they've got

1157
01:01:05,200 --> 01:01:07,360
Speaker 1: less tax incentives than they did in twenty twenty two.

1158
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: The ATA is also on their back. If they have

1159
01:01:10,040 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: alone there is a one and two chance to secure

1160
01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,720
Speaker 1: against the house, which definitely if we'll end the money,

1161
01:01:14,760 --> 01:01:16,040
Speaker 1: they would getting to have to put the house of

1162
01:01:16,120 --> 01:01:19,120
Speaker 1: a security and that is the fure effect in indust rates.

1163
01:01:19,160 --> 01:01:21,800
Speaker 1: If you were running a small business today, Yes, at TREASURER,

1164
01:01:22,560 --> 01:01:26,280
Speaker 1: facing those challenges where would you start to make a profit?

1165
01:01:27,040 --> 01:01:30,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I like to know the answers.

1166
01:01:30,360 --> 01:01:31,400
Speaker 1: I wish I knew the yes's.

1167
01:01:31,440 --> 01:01:32,880
Speaker 2: It won't come in every part of that. I mean,

1168
01:01:33,720 --> 01:01:36,360
Speaker 2: for example, do you know there's been twenty five thousand

1169
01:01:36,680 --> 01:01:39,400
Speaker 2: new businesses created on average every month the life of

1170
01:01:39,400 --> 01:01:42,040
Speaker 2: this government, the most ever, And so people have got

1171
01:01:42,080 --> 01:01:44,760
Speaker 2: a downbeat view about small business because the conditions have

1172
01:01:44,920 --> 01:01:49,480
Speaker 2: genuinely been difficult, But there's also been more businesses created

1173
01:01:49,800 --> 01:01:52,960
Speaker 2: under us than under any government, And so I don't

1174
01:01:53,040 --> 01:01:56,240
Speaker 2: like the sense that he is implicit in Angus's question

1175
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:02,320
Speaker 2: that small businesses should be pessimistic. I think there's a

1176
01:02:02,360 --> 01:02:05,640
Speaker 2: lot of reasons to be optimistic. And if you think

1177
01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:11,080
Speaker 2: about how new small businesses create jobs and opportunities and wealth.

1178
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:17,280
Speaker 2: You know, there's been an explosion in the services sector,

1179
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:19,880
Speaker 2: online retailing. You know, there is so much about the

1180
01:02:19,880 --> 01:02:22,480
Speaker 2: way that our economy is changing, in our industrial basis

1181
01:02:22,560 --> 01:02:26,160
Speaker 2: changing that creates huge opportunities for small business. And so

1182
01:02:27,640 --> 01:02:31,000
Speaker 2: I know that conditions have been difficult. Inflation has come down,

1183
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:35,120
Speaker 2: but it has been difficult. Some of the other global

1184
01:02:35,120 --> 01:02:38,040
Speaker 2: and domestic pressures on small businesses have been substantial. But

1185
01:02:38,680 --> 01:02:43,240
Speaker 2: I have a glass half full approach to small business.

1186
01:02:43,400 --> 01:02:45,800
Speaker 2: I know how much wealth and opportunity they create in

1187
01:02:45,840 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 2: our economy, and we've been supporting them. Energy bill, rebates,

1188
01:02:49,040 --> 01:02:53,240
Speaker 2: competition reforms, a whole bunch of ways, instant asset right

1189
01:02:53,320 --> 01:02:56,400
Speaker 2: off tax breaks, because we believe in small business. And

1190
01:02:56,440 --> 01:03:00,000
Speaker 2: I think we wouldn't be creating so many businesses per

1191
01:03:00,120 --> 01:03:02,880
Speaker 2: month if people didn't have shared at least a little

1192
01:03:02,880 --> 01:03:04,840
Speaker 2: bit bit of a sense of optimism about the future.

1193
01:03:05,400 --> 01:03:07,680
Speaker 1: And he said, do you have a second guess if

1194
01:03:07,720 --> 01:03:12,240
Speaker 1: you've got it right? That if you'd been more disciplined

1195
01:03:12,280 --> 01:03:15,080
Speaker 1: on government government spending after the pandemic, we may have

1196
01:03:15,160 --> 01:03:18,200
Speaker 1: had lower inflation and faster interest race cuts. That's a

1197
01:03:18,920 --> 01:03:23,480
Speaker 1: that's a I some people might say that the government's

1198
01:03:23,440 --> 01:03:27,280
Speaker 1: spending during the pandemic, which it wasn't you guys, is

1199
01:03:27,320 --> 01:03:30,640
Speaker 1: pretty tough too. But anyway, do you have do you

1200
01:03:30,680 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 1: have a second guess if you've got it right? In

1201
01:03:32,280 --> 01:03:33,800
Speaker 1: other words, I think what he's sort of saying is

1202
01:03:34,400 --> 01:03:36,120
Speaker 1: you do you ever think to yourself, maybe have made

1203
01:03:36,160 --> 01:03:36,640
Speaker 1: a mistake.

1204
01:03:37,200 --> 01:03:40,520
Speaker 2: Well, I think we got the balance right. You'd expect

1205
01:03:40,520 --> 01:03:42,080
Speaker 2: me to say that I think we've got the balance right,

1206
01:03:42,120 --> 01:03:45,040
Speaker 2: but to play through to its logical conclusion the view

1207
01:03:45,040 --> 01:03:48,000
Speaker 2: that Angus has. Yeah, Angus wanted us to kind of

1208
01:03:48,040 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 2: slash and burn in the budget because there's a view

1209
01:03:50,400 --> 01:03:52,919
Speaker 2: out there which I think is wrong, that the best

1210
01:03:52,960 --> 01:03:55,720
Speaker 2: way to deal with inflation is to have a kind

1211
01:03:55,720 --> 01:03:58,840
Speaker 2: of a hard landing and then clean up afterwards. Whereas

1212
01:03:58,840 --> 01:04:00,880
Speaker 2: what we've been able to engineer, not just the government,

1213
01:04:00,880 --> 01:04:04,640
Speaker 2: we as in Australians have business and workers and everyone

1214
01:04:05,240 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: is we've got inflation down without sacrificing a heap of jobs,

1215
01:04:08,880 --> 01:04:12,760
Speaker 2: with wages growing again, growth rebounding, interest rates are coming down,

1216
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:16,960
Speaker 2: so that combination is historically unusual, and it's unusual around

1217
01:04:17,000 --> 01:04:19,360
Speaker 2: the world. And that's because we got this balance broadly right.

1218
01:04:20,000 --> 01:04:23,120
Speaker 2: And so you know, I don't. I'm not the sort

1219
01:04:23,120 --> 01:04:26,080
Speaker 2: of person that pretends that you know every single thing

1220
01:04:26,160 --> 01:04:28,640
Speaker 2: we get perfectly right. But in terms of that balance,

1221
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,960
Speaker 2: I think Australia, Australians collectively have got that balance right

1222
01:04:33,000 --> 01:04:34,960
Speaker 2: because if we've gone down the path at Angus that

1223
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:38,120
Speaker 2: is implicit in Angus's question, we would have had a recession,

1224
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:40,720
Speaker 2: We'd be cleaning up after a recession, Unemployment would be

1225
01:04:40,760 --> 01:04:42,000
Speaker 2: higher and people would be worse off.

1226
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:44,960
Speaker 1: And his fine question is we hear a lot from

1227
01:04:45,360 --> 01:04:48,560
Speaker 1: politicians about what they want to talk about or boast about.

1228
01:04:48,600 --> 01:04:51,200
Speaker 1: I'm interested, particularly in the current economic context. I guess

1229
01:04:51,200 --> 01:04:54,000
Speaker 1: he's talking about today. Is there anything you've got right, guys,

1230
01:04:54,720 --> 01:04:56,560
Speaker 1: you've got wrong in the last three years. That's his

1231
01:04:56,720 --> 01:04:57,240
Speaker 1: last question.

1232
01:04:58,360 --> 01:05:00,680
Speaker 2: Look, I think it comes back to what we were

1233
01:05:00,680 --> 01:05:04,680
Speaker 2: talking about before, and that is I feel broadly that

1234
01:05:04,880 --> 01:05:07,800
Speaker 2: the government's got broadly got the decisions right and the

1235
01:05:07,840 --> 01:05:12,320
Speaker 2: balances right. You know, from time to time, I am

1236
01:05:12,440 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 2: a very blunt communicator, and sometimes the situation requires a

1237
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:18,960
Speaker 2: bit more nuanced and so if I think about the

1238
01:05:19,000 --> 01:05:21,960
Speaker 2: things where I've reflected on how I would do things differently,

1239
01:05:21,960 --> 01:05:25,680
Speaker 2: it's to recognize that this microphone in front of a treasurer,

1240
01:05:25,760 --> 01:05:30,160
Speaker 2: this treasurer, but every treasurer is a powerful thing. And

1241
01:05:30,280 --> 01:05:32,480
Speaker 2: so to make sure that when I'm being upfront with

1242
01:05:32,520 --> 01:05:35,640
Speaker 2: people and frank with people and blunt about the situation,

1243
01:05:35,720 --> 01:05:37,720
Speaker 2: to make sure that I choose my words carefully. And

1244
01:05:38,040 --> 01:05:41,720
Speaker 2: really that's the main thing that I know. From time

1245
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:43,600
Speaker 2: to time, I think I could have described that differently,

1246
01:05:43,680 --> 01:05:47,040
Speaker 2: that situation differently, But in terms of the decisions we've taken,

1247
01:05:47,080 --> 01:05:47,920
Speaker 2: I'm very proud of them.

1248
01:05:48,880 --> 01:05:51,880
Speaker 1: You know, someone said to me this morning, a very

1249
01:05:51,920 --> 01:05:54,080
Speaker 1: well known commentator. I won't raise his name because he

1250
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,880
Speaker 1: probably does want to be named, but my time I

1251
01:05:56,920 --> 01:06:01,360
Speaker 1: was seeing you today and he said to me, Jim

1252
01:06:01,560 --> 01:06:06,280
Speaker 1: is very polished. You know you. I'm just watching you today.

1253
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:09,440
Speaker 1: I mean, you're very good on your feet. You're already

1254
01:06:10,040 --> 01:06:11,400
Speaker 1: relatively speaking young man.

1255
01:06:11,960 --> 01:06:13,840
Speaker 2: From my put you anyway, I look a lot older

1256
01:06:13,840 --> 01:06:15,680
Speaker 2: than I did three years ago.

1257
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,480
Speaker 1: In the treasure will do that. But he said, you're

1258
01:06:19,560 --> 01:06:26,240
Speaker 1: very polished, polished in delivery. Where does were you always good?

1259
01:06:26,800 --> 01:06:31,200
Speaker 1: Good at speaking publicly? You know, like debate? Was this

1260
01:06:31,320 --> 01:06:34,080
Speaker 1: something that come out of your family or your no school?

1261
01:06:34,320 --> 01:06:35,880
Speaker 2: No? And one of the things I would have done

1262
01:06:35,880 --> 01:06:37,280
Speaker 2: differently when I was a kid is I would have

1263
01:06:37,280 --> 01:06:41,000
Speaker 2: done debating or I would have been you know, less shy.

1264
01:06:41,960 --> 01:06:45,160
Speaker 2: You know, in my in my twenties, in my political involvement,

1265
01:06:46,600 --> 01:06:48,320
Speaker 2: I think, if you want to make a difference in

1266
01:06:48,360 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: a contribution, you've got to push yourself out of your

1267
01:06:50,360 --> 01:06:54,400
Speaker 2: comfort zone. And for me, the public element of it

1268
01:06:54,600 --> 01:06:57,439
Speaker 2: being on TV and giving speeches, you know, that's something

1269
01:06:57,440 --> 01:07:02,080
Speaker 2: that I've had to learn over time. But you know

1270
01:07:02,120 --> 01:07:04,200
Speaker 2: what I have tried to do is I've tried to

1271
01:07:04,240 --> 01:07:07,240
Speaker 2: take complex things and make them easier for people to understand.

1272
01:07:07,240 --> 01:07:09,680
Speaker 2: For all the reasons we've been talking about today, it's

1273
01:07:09,720 --> 01:07:12,080
Speaker 2: one of the things I enjoy is kind of interpreting.

1274
01:07:12,720 --> 01:07:14,960
Speaker 2: You know, Being the treasurer is being the explainer in

1275
01:07:15,040 --> 01:07:19,240
Speaker 2: chief on lots of occasions, and so I take that

1276
01:07:19,280 --> 01:07:22,080
Speaker 2: part of the job very seriously. I don't think i'd

1277
01:07:22,160 --> 01:07:25,480
Speaker 2: like to be more polished. There are much more polished communicators,

1278
01:07:25,520 --> 01:07:31,600
Speaker 2: even in our own team. But I realished the opportunity

1279
01:07:31,640 --> 01:07:35,160
Speaker 2: to explain things to people, and I think that that

1280
01:07:35,360 --> 01:07:37,720
Speaker 2: comes across. I think people know that I'm trying to

1281
01:07:37,880 --> 01:07:39,800
Speaker 2: be upfront with them about what's happening and what we're

1282
01:07:39,800 --> 01:07:41,640
Speaker 2: grappling with and what we're trying to do about it.

1283
01:07:42,120 --> 01:07:45,120
Speaker 2: And I don't think that's polish. I just think that

1284
01:07:45,160 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 2: it's a part of my role that I value, and

1285
01:07:47,480 --> 01:07:48,320
Speaker 2: I hope that comes.

1286
01:07:48,160 --> 01:07:50,960
Speaker 1: Across, you know. I think when he meant polished, he

1287
01:07:51,040 --> 01:07:54,800
Speaker 1: sort of said to me that Jim is able to

1288
01:07:54,840 --> 01:07:57,880
Speaker 1: sell the policy, sell the concept. I know, I mean

1289
01:07:57,880 --> 01:08:01,080
Speaker 1: in a salesmanship way, but actually express it in a

1290
01:08:01,120 --> 01:08:04,760
Speaker 1: way that everyone can understand and can maybe even relate to. Perhaps,

1291
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:07,120
Speaker 1: and I wonder if that has something to do with

1292
01:08:07,560 --> 01:08:11,280
Speaker 1: we grew up the people you hung out with, Hay

1293
01:08:11,480 --> 01:08:12,160
Speaker 1: to live your life.

1294
01:08:12,200 --> 01:08:14,760
Speaker 2: It's funny you say this because there is a I

1295
01:08:14,760 --> 01:08:17,000
Speaker 2: don't know if it's the same one, but there's a

1296
01:08:17,040 --> 01:08:22,200
Speaker 2: commentator that I've discussed with before, and Jack who's here

1297
01:08:22,479 --> 01:08:25,120
Speaker 2: on your couch here, we talk about it frequently because

1298
01:08:25,160 --> 01:08:29,479
Speaker 2: he's got the same mannerisms. And that is, you know,

1299
01:08:29,520 --> 01:08:33,519
Speaker 2: when you pick up colloquialisms and the way that people spoke,

1300
01:08:33,600 --> 01:08:36,960
Speaker 2: maybe in the eighties and the nineties, and for me,

1301
01:08:37,720 --> 01:08:39,720
Speaker 2: when I was a little fella, I used to talk

1302
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 2: my dad into taking me to the races on Saturday

1303
01:08:42,760 --> 01:08:45,040
Speaker 2: and I'd wander around the public bar with a Hessian

1304
01:08:45,080 --> 01:08:48,320
Speaker 2: bag and collect cams and studies to recycle for money.

1305
01:08:48,760 --> 01:08:51,840
Speaker 2: When I was kind of twelve thirteen and only quite

1306
01:08:51,920 --> 01:08:55,040
Speaker 2: recently speaking to a couple of people, it's dawned on

1307
01:08:55,160 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: me that maybe some of the ways that I speak

1308
01:08:58,000 --> 01:09:01,599
Speaker 2: is because in my formative years spend three or four

1309
01:09:01,600 --> 01:09:05,000
Speaker 2: hours wandering around the bar at Domburgh or Eagle Farm

1310
01:09:05,040 --> 01:09:07,519
Speaker 2: in Brisbane at the races my dad. My dad loves

1311
01:09:07,640 --> 01:09:10,840
Speaker 2: the horses, collecting cans and I got to know a lot.

1312
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:13,120
Speaker 2: I got to know some of these books in the

1313
01:09:13,160 --> 01:09:15,559
Speaker 2: bar at the at the races, and I wonder if

1314
01:09:15,560 --> 01:09:18,880
Speaker 2: sometimes when I slip into that kind of old school colloquialism,

1315
01:09:18,920 --> 01:09:22,000
Speaker 2: I wonder if it's from dragging a Hessian sack around

1316
01:09:22,640 --> 01:09:24,799
Speaker 2: the public bar at the races. Where I've got that from.

1317
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:26,840
Speaker 1: Well, because I think of you know, as us as voters,

1318
01:09:26,880 --> 01:09:29,080
Speaker 1: particularly this critical time, at the moment, we've got to know,

1319
01:09:29,120 --> 01:09:32,080
Speaker 1: we've got a global drama going on, and we also

1320
01:09:32,120 --> 01:09:33,400
Speaker 1: were in the middle of election. We've got to know.

1321
01:09:33,880 --> 01:09:36,160
Speaker 1: We want to feel comfortable who were going to who

1322
01:09:36,160 --> 01:09:37,840
Speaker 1: we're going to vote in that you can get us

1323
01:09:37,840 --> 01:09:41,519
Speaker 1: through this process. We want to make sure we can

1324
01:09:41,560 --> 01:09:44,720
Speaker 1: to understand the person's talking talking to us. We don't

1325
01:09:44,720 --> 01:09:46,240
Speaker 1: want to be getting gobbly book, we don't want to

1326
01:09:46,240 --> 01:09:49,799
Speaker 1: be getting technical bullshit such that we walk away scratch

1327
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,880
Speaker 1: on a head and we've got a clue. In fact,

1328
01:09:52,880 --> 01:09:56,040
Speaker 1: we're more clueless after the conversation than we were before

1329
01:09:56,080 --> 01:09:59,439
Speaker 1: the conversation. I think this particular guy that is talking

1330
01:09:59,439 --> 01:10:01,679
Speaker 1: to me this morning, I think that's where he's getting at,

1331
01:10:01,960 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 1: that you have the ability to sort of decipher it

1332
01:10:05,120 --> 01:10:05,639
Speaker 1: for us.

1333
01:10:06,000 --> 01:10:07,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, but I think the important thing there is not

1334
01:10:07,840 --> 01:10:11,640
Speaker 2: talking down to people and talking up to people. And

1335
01:10:11,720 --> 01:10:15,720
Speaker 2: so when we've got something complex to explain, a new

1336
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:18,000
Speaker 2: policy or a big development of the economy like today,

1337
01:10:20,439 --> 01:10:22,320
Speaker 2: I try and remember that the job here is to

1338
01:10:22,360 --> 01:10:25,479
Speaker 2: talk up to people, not talk down to people, and

1339
01:10:25,520 --> 01:10:30,000
Speaker 2: so to explain things in simple language, but to recognize

1340
01:10:30,040 --> 01:10:32,960
Speaker 2: that people are pretty smart. You know, people are smart

1341
01:10:33,000 --> 01:10:36,639
Speaker 2: and they can work out if you're trying to snow

1342
01:10:36,640 --> 01:10:41,160
Speaker 2: them with unnecessary detail. And so sometimes the most important

1343
01:10:41,160 --> 01:10:43,040
Speaker 2: thing is to be able to simplify something but not

1344
01:10:43,120 --> 01:10:43,719
Speaker 2: dumb it down.

1345
01:10:44,680 --> 01:10:48,519
Speaker 1: So does a kid from Logan City feel about where

1346
01:10:48,600 --> 01:10:51,480
Speaker 1: he is today?

1347
01:10:52,320 --> 01:10:55,960
Speaker 2: Well, I think it's especially important time to have a

1348
01:10:55,960 --> 01:11:00,120
Speaker 2: big job like this. And you know, when you're you're

1349
01:11:00,160 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 2: on planes a lot, and you're away from your family

1350
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:04,240
Speaker 2: a lot, you try and make sure that you are

1351
01:11:04,680 --> 01:11:08,000
Speaker 2: still grateful for the opportunity, because the opportunity is fleeting.

1352
01:11:08,160 --> 01:11:09,639
Speaker 2: You know, even if you get to do this job

1353
01:11:09,680 --> 01:11:12,080
Speaker 2: for a long time. You know, Paul got to do

1354
01:11:12,120 --> 01:11:15,559
Speaker 2: it for eight and a half years, Swanne got to

1355
01:11:15,560 --> 01:11:18,360
Speaker 2: do it for almost six years, Costello for must have

1356
01:11:18,360 --> 01:11:23,040
Speaker 2: been eleven years. But mostly people who get a shorter

1357
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:26,680
Speaker 2: time frame than that you recognize that these opportunities are

1358
01:11:26,680 --> 01:11:30,760
Speaker 2: fleeting and so do the best you can. And to

1359
01:11:30,840 --> 01:11:33,599
Speaker 2: recognize that at some point it will be over, and

1360
01:11:34,320 --> 01:11:37,320
Speaker 2: whether it's at the election or at some subsequent point.

1361
01:11:37,400 --> 01:11:41,479
Speaker 2: And so with the election innin it, I feel really

1362
01:11:41,520 --> 01:11:45,080
Speaker 2: grateful for the chance. I desperately want to do it

1363
01:11:45,080 --> 01:11:50,960
Speaker 2: for longer, but to recognize how fortunate I am to

1364
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:52,840
Speaker 2: be able to do a job like this at a

1365
01:11:52,880 --> 01:11:58,800
Speaker 2: time when the world's going mad and where the big

1366
01:11:58,840 --> 01:12:00,920
Speaker 2: task for Australia is to work out how do we

1367
01:12:00,960 --> 01:12:03,320
Speaker 2: make our people beneficiaries of all of this churn and

1368
01:12:03,400 --> 01:12:06,120
Speaker 2: change rather than victims of it. You know, if you

1369
01:12:06,160 --> 01:12:08,200
Speaker 2: accept that when the world's going mad and there's a

1370
01:12:08,240 --> 01:12:11,080
Speaker 2: lot of change, there are kind of three schools of thought,

1371
01:12:11,160 --> 01:12:13,880
Speaker 2: let it rip, turn back the clock, or try and

1372
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:16,760
Speaker 2: make sure that people farewell. I mean, amongst all of

1373
01:12:16,760 --> 01:12:19,599
Speaker 2: this churn and change. Really, that's where I'm at and

1374
01:12:19,680 --> 01:12:22,719
Speaker 2: so especially grateful for the chance to do this job

1375
01:12:22,760 --> 01:12:23,880
Speaker 2: in an uncertain time.

1376
01:12:24,280 --> 01:12:26,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, so sort of what you're saying is, I was

1377
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:30,480
Speaker 1: just thinking about that that's like a gift, the ability

1378
01:12:30,680 --> 01:12:35,280
Speaker 1: to or the vote to navigate your way through as

1379
01:12:35,320 --> 01:12:37,880
Speaker 1: a treasurer as a person who loves doing these things,

1380
01:12:39,680 --> 01:12:44,639
Speaker 1: navigate yourself, the country, through yourself, the country through this

1381
01:12:44,760 --> 01:12:49,439
Speaker 1: really tough, complicated and very unusual. Never before we've seen

1382
01:12:49,479 --> 01:12:52,080
Speaker 1: something like this, just like COVID never saw before, just

1383
01:12:52,120 --> 01:12:54,800
Speaker 1: like GFC never saw before. There's something we've never seen before.

1384
01:12:55,320 --> 01:12:57,400
Speaker 1: And as a gift to be able to take us

1385
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:02,880
Speaker 1: through that final question, why should Australians who are listening

1386
01:13:02,920 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 1: to the show right now no labor.

1387
01:13:06,040 --> 01:13:09,120
Speaker 2: Well, because we've made a lot of progress together the

1388
01:13:09,240 --> 01:13:11,960
Speaker 2: last three years, but the job's not done because people

1389
01:13:12,000 --> 01:13:15,559
Speaker 2: are under pressure and the global environment's very uncertain, and

1390
01:13:15,640 --> 01:13:19,120
Speaker 2: so it's a pretty simple choice. We believe we are

1391
01:13:19,120 --> 01:13:22,840
Speaker 2: helping with the cost of living, cutting income taxes, strengthening

1392
01:13:22,880 --> 01:13:26,719
Speaker 2: medicare making our economy more resilient. And the other guys

1393
01:13:26,920 --> 01:13:30,120
Speaker 2: are for lower wages and higher taxes, and they've got

1394
01:13:30,120 --> 01:13:32,640
Speaker 2: these secret cuts to pay for their nuclear reactors. And

1395
01:13:32,680 --> 01:13:34,360
Speaker 2: so I think the closer we get to the election,

1396
01:13:34,479 --> 01:13:40,639
Speaker 2: that choice crystallizes and and it's a pretty stark choice.

1397
01:13:41,000 --> 01:13:43,479
Speaker 2: And we've tried to help people with the cost of

1398
01:13:43,479 --> 01:13:48,639
Speaker 2: living throughout this inflation challenge. We've done that despite our opponents,

1399
01:13:48,680 --> 01:13:53,720
Speaker 2: not with their support, and so I think we are

1400
01:13:53,760 --> 01:13:55,920
Speaker 2: a better place to help people navigate what's going to

1401
01:13:55,920 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 2: be a pretty tricky and uncertain time in the global economy.

1402
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,240
Speaker 1: Well, good luck and be and and if you guys

1403
01:14:01,280 --> 01:14:03,560
Speaker 1: get through it and you're and imagine you're going to

1404
01:14:03,600 --> 01:14:07,640
Speaker 1: be the treasurer. Still, what an amazing opportunity.

1405
01:14:07,880 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 2: That's right, that's it. You think about De Lascel and

1406
01:14:11,120 --> 01:14:13,759
Speaker 2: the school that I went to, I think they instill

1407
01:14:13,800 --> 01:14:16,160
Speaker 2: on you this idea that it's good to be counted on. Yeah,

1408
01:14:16,400 --> 01:14:18,200
Speaker 2: you want to be counted on. There's this sense of

1409
01:14:18,520 --> 01:14:22,800
Speaker 2: service and I feel that every day. Grateful for that

1410
01:14:22,880 --> 01:14:24,800
Speaker 2: every single day. But I think especially as you get

1411
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:29,240
Speaker 2: closer to the election, you recognize how rare and cherished

1412
01:14:29,280 --> 01:14:32,320
Speaker 2: this opportunity is to help run the country, best country

1413
01:14:32,320 --> 01:14:35,000
Speaker 2: on Earth, and to have a to have a say

1414
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:37,920
Speaker 2: and how it's run is a pretty remarkable thing. And

1415
01:14:37,960 --> 01:14:40,439
Speaker 2: so I appreciate it, and I appreciate the chance to

1416
01:14:40,439 --> 01:14:43,040
Speaker 2: talk to you today, treasure Gin Charmasans