1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James, and you're listening to 7am. At the 2 00:00:09,100 --> 00:00:11,690 Speaker 1: start of last year, Serco was about to hand over 3 00:00:11,740 --> 00:00:15,710 Speaker 1: the contract to run Australia's immigration detention centres. The question 4 00:00:15,730 --> 00:00:18,950 Speaker 1: at the time was whether its replacement, American private prison 5 00:00:18,989 --> 00:00:23,230 Speaker 1: operator MTC, would be any better. 18 months later, we 6 00:00:23,270 --> 00:00:27,150 Speaker 1: have an answer. Recording incidents across the detention network have 7 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:31,310 Speaker 1: more than doubled, from almost 800 to over 1,600. since 8 00:00:31,390 --> 00:00:35,529 Speaker 1: MTC took over. At the same time, Australia's offshore detention 9 00:00:35,570 --> 00:00:38,940 Speaker 1: system on Nauru is expanding. Hundreds more people are being 10 00:00:39,020 --> 00:00:41,919 Speaker 1: transferred to the island and the Albanese government has announced 11 00:00:41,979 --> 00:00:45,479 Speaker 1: plans to expand immigration detention as part of its crackdown 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,779 Speaker 1: on visa overstayers. Today, we're returning to a conversation with 13 00:00:49,840 --> 00:00:53,280 Speaker 1: journalist Denham Sadler about the private companies paid billions to 14 00:00:53,330 --> 00:00:56,490 Speaker 1: run Australia's immigration detention system and the warnings that were 15 00:00:56,530 --> 00:01:03,990 Speaker 1: there before MTC took over. It's Sunday, September 20. This 16 00:01:04,110 --> 00:01:10,670 Speaker 1: episode first aired in January 2025. Dan, you've been reporting 17 00:01:10,690 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: on Australia's immigration detention system for 10 years now. So 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:16,480 Speaker 1: can you tell me about Serco? 19 00:01:17,060 --> 00:01:20,720 Speaker 2: Serco is this massive conglomerate based in the UK. They 20 00:01:20,740 --> 00:01:23,520 Speaker 2: have a market cap of about $ 3 billion and they're 21 00:01:23,540 --> 00:01:27,020 Speaker 2: listed on the London Stock Exchange. And they basically try 22 00:01:27,060 --> 00:01:29,729 Speaker 2: and win any work that the government wants to outsource. 23 00:01:30,220 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 2: What does a career with Serco look like? It's secure 24 00:01:33,340 --> 00:01:38,039 Speaker 2: employment where training's provided. So they operate across defence, they 25 00:01:38,060 --> 00:01:41,810 Speaker 2: operate in the space sector, they run cleaning services and 26 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,490 Speaker 2: they have a massive presence in the justice space. So 27 00:01:44,530 --> 00:01:49,650 Speaker 2: they run prisons and they run immigration detention centres. Registered nurses, 28 00:01:49,910 --> 00:01:54,330 Speaker 2: corrective case officers, security and intelligence officers, vocational trainers, trade 29 00:01:54,370 --> 00:01:56,270 Speaker 2: instructors and so much more. 30 00:01:56,290 --> 00:01:58,520 Speaker 3: It's real jobs for real people. 31 00:01:59,280 --> 00:02:02,740 Speaker 2: And they've been running the immigration detention centres or the 32 00:02:02,820 --> 00:02:08,500 Speaker 2: onshore centres in Australia for about 15 years. Serco has 33 00:02:08,520 --> 00:02:12,480 Speaker 2: this reputation across the years for being basically akin to prison, 34 00:02:12,740 --> 00:02:17,519 Speaker 2: very highly securitised, a focus on kind of safety and 35 00:02:17,580 --> 00:02:20,320 Speaker 2: security over anything else, over the wellbeing of people, and 36 00:02:20,340 --> 00:02:22,490 Speaker 2: that's what a lot of Advocates and people that have 37 00:02:22,510 --> 00:02:24,340 Speaker 2: been through the system have said as well that it's 38 00:02:24,400 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: led to a lot of issues with how people are treated. Today, 39 00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 2: the Crikey website released a manual which has been given 40 00:02:30,580 --> 00:02:33,720 Speaker 2: out by Serco to the people it employs to work 41 00:02:34,120 --> 00:02:35,890 Speaker 2: at its immigration detention centre. 42 00:02:35,990 --> 00:02:39,070 Speaker 4: It is a last resort, as it says, getting into a, quote, 43 00:02:39,190 --> 00:02:42,550 Speaker 4: fight with asylum seekers. But if you read through the document, 44 00:02:42,570 --> 00:02:47,260 Speaker 4: there's quite a few use of force issues. There's instructions 45 00:02:47,320 --> 00:02:51,900 Speaker 4: on how to kick people. punch, jab fingers into detainee limbs, 46 00:02:52,100 --> 00:02:54,940 Speaker 4: pressure point tactics, which are obviously very controversial. 47 00:02:55,380 --> 00:02:58,380 Speaker 2: There's been a lot of scandals and there's been incidents 48 00:02:58,419 --> 00:03:00,760 Speaker 2: of self-harm, there's been a lot of allegations of human 49 00:03:00,820 --> 00:03:01,640 Speaker 2: rights abuses. 50 00:03:01,820 --> 00:03:05,760 Speaker 5: Professor Louise Newman from Monash University told the Joint Select 51 00:03:05,800 --> 00:03:09,829 Speaker 5: Committee into the Immigration Detention Centre Network there's no medical 52 00:03:09,889 --> 00:03:13,970 Speaker 5: review process for the use of solitary confinement in detention centres. 53 00:03:14,590 --> 00:03:16,850 Speaker 5: She said some staff at the centres, run by the 54 00:03:16,910 --> 00:03:20,870 Speaker 5: company Serco, even carry knives to cut down asylum seekers 55 00:03:21,169 --> 00:03:22,370 Speaker 5: who try to hang themselves. 56 00:03:22,850 --> 00:03:25,510 Speaker 2: And a lot of concerns about how people are treated 57 00:03:25,550 --> 00:03:26,150 Speaker 2: in these centres. 58 00:03:26,470 --> 00:03:28,030 Speaker 1: And how much money have they racked in from the 59 00:03:28,070 --> 00:03:29,450 Speaker 1: Commonwealth over the years? 60 00:03:29,950 --> 00:03:33,810 Speaker 2: They've received more than $ 7. 5 billion across about 15 years 61 00:03:33,850 --> 00:03:36,810 Speaker 2: of contracts. So that's across two contracts, and one of 62 00:03:36,850 --> 00:03:40,510 Speaker 2: those contracts was extended many, many times. But, yeah, it's 63 00:03:40,530 --> 00:03:42,550 Speaker 2: very lucrative business. They've won a lot of money. 64 00:03:43,770 --> 00:03:45,750 Speaker 1: OK, so that's a lot of money over that time. 65 00:03:46,360 --> 00:03:48,120 Speaker 1: Before we get into the detail about some of those 66 00:03:48,220 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: incidents and scandals you mentioned, what was it like before 67 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:54,960 Speaker 1: Serco came into the picture? How much has the immigration 68 00:03:54,980 --> 00:03:56,280 Speaker 1: detention system changed? 69 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,540 Speaker 2: This was something that surprised me a bit. Some advocates 70 00:03:59,600 --> 00:04:02,150 Speaker 2: I talk to remember kind of 20 years ago, you 71 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 2: could go in on a weekend and take someone out 72 00:04:03,910 --> 00:04:05,770 Speaker 2: of the network and take them to the beach or 73 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:08,529 Speaker 2: take them to a church service. And so there was 74 00:04:08,570 --> 00:04:11,970 Speaker 2: a different level of security to the system. But across 75 00:04:12,010 --> 00:04:16,359 Speaker 2: that time, we've obviously seen Seeking asylum and immigration becomes 76 00:04:16,400 --> 00:04:18,900 Speaker 2: such a large political issue and it's become a national 77 00:04:18,940 --> 00:04:22,500 Speaker 2: security issue and we've seen the rise in offshore detention 78 00:04:22,540 --> 00:04:24,780 Speaker 2: and everything like that as well that's transformed it into 79 00:04:24,880 --> 00:04:27,620 Speaker 2: one that is much closer to a prison network and 80 00:04:27,720 --> 00:04:29,420 Speaker 2: with a focus on securitisation. 81 00:04:29,960 --> 00:04:33,839 Speaker 1: So what's the hardline approach meant for people in detention? 82 00:04:34,140 --> 00:04:35,980 Speaker 1: What is it like to be in detention? 83 00:04:36,490 --> 00:04:38,440 Speaker 2: So one of the men I spoke to for the story, 84 00:04:38,810 --> 00:04:43,039 Speaker 2: his name's Mustafa Azimutabar. And he's known as Moz. And 85 00:04:43,080 --> 00:04:46,940 Speaker 2: he's a Kurdish asylum seeker who was eventually medivaced to 86 00:04:46,980 --> 00:04:49,880 Speaker 2: Australia as part of that cohort of asylum seekers that 87 00:04:49,900 --> 00:04:53,400 Speaker 2: were taken to Australia for medical means. And throughout this time, 88 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:55,750 Speaker 2: he also has been recognized as a refugee, so a 89 00:04:55,950 --> 00:04:59,670 Speaker 2: legitimate refugee. And then after being medivaced, he spent about 90 00:04:59,670 --> 00:05:03,870 Speaker 2: 14 months in hotel detention. Serco also operate these hotels 91 00:05:03,910 --> 00:05:05,229 Speaker 2: that serve as detention centers. 92 00:05:05,510 --> 00:05:10,620 Speaker 6: The government used the hotel as a prison to lock 93 00:05:10,700 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 6: me up. And the situation made me more sick. My 94 00:05:18,460 --> 00:05:21,460 Speaker 6: body is trembling when I think about the time I 95 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:23,099 Speaker 6: was in those hotels. 96 00:05:23,620 --> 00:05:26,260 Speaker 2: He spoke to me of this regime where Serco basically 97 00:05:26,300 --> 00:05:29,060 Speaker 2: just controlled his entire life, which was restricted to this 98 00:05:29,120 --> 00:05:31,790 Speaker 2: tiny hotel room where you could barely open the windows. 99 00:05:32,320 --> 00:05:36,770 Speaker 6: Definitely it was worse than Manus Island. I was locked 100 00:05:36,930 --> 00:05:40,330 Speaker 6: up on the third floor of the Mantra and the 101 00:05:40,390 --> 00:05:44,589 Speaker 6: park prison. I spent 23 hours a day in a room. 102 00:05:45,210 --> 00:05:47,750 Speaker 6: Officers 10 times a day came to the room. 103 00:05:48,490 --> 00:05:51,290 Speaker 2: And one of the biggest things he talks about a 104 00:05:51,330 --> 00:05:53,330 Speaker 2: lot about the trauma is that he was just pat 105 00:05:53,370 --> 00:05:56,930 Speaker 2: searched constantly by the Serco guards. He says across his 106 00:05:56,970 --> 00:06:00,109 Speaker 2: time in the hotel, he was pat searched about 400 times. 107 00:06:00,870 --> 00:06:03,310 Speaker 2: And he said this has a really huge impact on 108 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,200 Speaker 2: him and his mental health and was very triggering. And 109 00:06:06,240 --> 00:06:09,360 Speaker 2: there was another case that the Justice and Equity Center 110 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:12,940 Speaker 2: settled with Serco and the government in 2023, and that 111 00:06:12,980 --> 00:06:16,620 Speaker 2: related to an asylum seeker called Yasir. And he was 112 00:06:17,040 --> 00:06:19,620 Speaker 2: forced to wear handcuffs every time he left the detention 113 00:06:19,660 --> 00:06:22,520 Speaker 2: center he was being held at to access medical treatment. 114 00:06:23,990 --> 00:06:26,510 Speaker 2: Similar to Moz, just says this had a very triggering 115 00:06:26,550 --> 00:06:29,630 Speaker 2: effect on him and was very traumatising and did impact 116 00:06:29,670 --> 00:06:32,210 Speaker 2: his ability to access that medical treatment as well. And 117 00:06:33,270 --> 00:06:36,890 Speaker 2: these incidents definitely aren't isolated cases as well. So we do, 118 00:06:36,970 --> 00:06:39,490 Speaker 2: thanks to the parliamentary system, we have a bit of 119 00:06:39,570 --> 00:06:43,310 Speaker 2: information on how rife these things are. And some stats 120 00:06:43,360 --> 00:06:46,100 Speaker 2: released by Home Affairs shows there are actually more than 121 00:06:46,100 --> 00:06:48,969 Speaker 2: 15 incidents of use of force in on an average 122 00:06:49,010 --> 00:06:51,710 Speaker 2: day in detention. And this use of force includes the 123 00:06:51,770 --> 00:06:54,690 Speaker 2: use of handcuffs. And there was also at least one 124 00:06:54,750 --> 00:06:57,609 Speaker 2: incident of self-harm on an average day as well across 125 00:06:57,630 --> 00:06:58,510 Speaker 2: the last five years. 126 00:06:59,150 --> 00:06:59,419 Speaker 4: Right. 127 00:06:59,450 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 1: And so looking back on Serco's reign, advocates and former detainees, 128 00:07:03,740 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: the people you've spoken to, are they optimistic that it's over? 129 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:11,850 Speaker 2: Nearly every advocate I talk to that has fought Serco 130 00:07:11,900 --> 00:07:14,550 Speaker 2: over these years and represented people in the detention centres 131 00:07:14,750 --> 00:07:16,790 Speaker 2: are They're definitely not upset to be seen in the 132 00:07:16,830 --> 00:07:19,550 Speaker 2: back of Serco, but there's no positivity at all that 133 00:07:19,590 --> 00:07:21,910 Speaker 2: anything's going to change when the government has brought in 134 00:07:22,030 --> 00:07:26,070 Speaker 2: just another prison provider, another company that has a reputation 135 00:07:26,130 --> 00:07:30,700 Speaker 2: for certain conditions in their centres. Green Senator David Shoebridge 136 00:07:30,740 --> 00:07:32,940 Speaker 2: told me that he thinks it's the most extreme and 137 00:07:32,980 --> 00:07:36,679 Speaker 2: secretive detention regime in the world and I think everyone's 138 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:39,220 Speaker 2: still pretty concerned that not much is going to change 139 00:07:39,260 --> 00:07:39,880 Speaker 2: in the system. 140 00:07:42,760 --> 00:07:51,970 Speaker 1: After the break... Why the government broke with Serco. Then 141 00:07:52,310 --> 00:07:55,310 Speaker 1: the federal government has opted not to renew Serco's contract 142 00:07:55,330 --> 00:08:00,380 Speaker 1: for running Australia's immigration detention system. Do we know why 143 00:08:00,440 --> 00:08:01,280 Speaker 1: they made that decision? 144 00:08:01,740 --> 00:08:03,340 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was really interesting. I think a lot of 145 00:08:03,360 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 2: people I talk to that are very involved in the 146 00:08:06,300 --> 00:08:08,900 Speaker 2: space and how it operates were quite surprised that Serco 147 00:08:08,940 --> 00:08:12,870 Speaker 2: lost the contract. Potentially... there were just too many incidents 148 00:08:13,010 --> 00:08:15,270 Speaker 2: over time and they had a chance because the contract 149 00:08:15,290 --> 00:08:17,330 Speaker 2: did end. They haven't scrapped the contract. It did come 150 00:08:17,370 --> 00:08:19,450 Speaker 2: to an end and they've found a new provider that 151 00:08:19,930 --> 00:08:22,610 Speaker 2: they took that chance to bring someone else in. They 152 00:08:22,630 --> 00:08:25,610 Speaker 2: did reply to some questions for me. They didn't really 153 00:08:25,810 --> 00:08:27,710 Speaker 2: address any of the questions I put to them about 154 00:08:27,750 --> 00:08:31,190 Speaker 2: Serco's track record. And the fact that it is a 155 00:08:31,210 --> 00:08:33,550 Speaker 2: private operator running it just makes it a bit harder 156 00:08:33,590 --> 00:08:36,170 Speaker 2: to access information. There's an added layer of secrecy when 157 00:08:36,800 --> 00:08:39,180 Speaker 2: they can claim commercial confidence on some of these elements 158 00:08:39,240 --> 00:08:41,610 Speaker 2: of the contract and hide that from the public. 159 00:08:42,070 --> 00:08:44,550 Speaker 1: So what do we know about the new company that 160 00:08:44,590 --> 00:08:45,190 Speaker 1: will take over? 161 00:08:45,850 --> 00:08:48,730 Speaker 2: So the new providers are a subsidiary of a company 162 00:08:48,770 --> 00:08:52,210 Speaker 2: called Management and Training Corporation. So they're a US-based company 163 00:08:52,290 --> 00:08:54,990 Speaker 2: and they run a number of for-profit prisons in the 164 00:08:55,030 --> 00:08:57,620 Speaker 2: United States as well as immigration detention centres. 165 00:08:58,960 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 3: Riots took hold of a prison in Arizona. 166 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:06,010 Speaker 7: 16 people were injured, 1,200 inmates were evacuated. much of 167 00:09:06,070 --> 00:09:08,410 Speaker 7: the facility itself was left uninhabitable. 168 00:09:08,450 --> 00:09:10,970 Speaker 2: And there's been a lot of incidents reported on already. 169 00:09:10,990 --> 00:09:15,750 Speaker 3: Their targeted destruction of MTC property strongly suggested the riots 170 00:09:15,770 --> 00:09:18,370 Speaker 3: were brought on by inmate dissatisfaction with the way the 171 00:09:18,410 --> 00:09:22,490 Speaker 3: prison was operated. There was a culture of disorganization, disengagement, 172 00:09:22,530 --> 00:09:25,110 Speaker 3: and disregard for Department of Corrections policies. 173 00:09:25,309 --> 00:09:26,900 Speaker 2: And a lot of legal suits that have kind of 174 00:09:26,929 --> 00:09:28,739 Speaker 2: shed a bit of light on what the conditions are 175 00:09:28,760 --> 00:09:30,860 Speaker 2: like in their centers, and it doesn't paint a very 176 00:09:30,900 --> 00:09:31,540 Speaker 2: nice picture. 177 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:35,010 Speaker 8: The ACLU published its report last year. In addition to 178 00:09:35,050 --> 00:09:38,750 Speaker 8: accounts of overcrowding and squalid conditions inside the tent city, 179 00:09:39,100 --> 00:09:42,760 Speaker 8: inmates complained of excessive use of solitary confinement, a lack 180 00:09:42,780 --> 00:09:46,420 Speaker 8: of activities to occupy their time, and inadequate medical treatment. 181 00:09:46,660 --> 00:09:49,500 Speaker 2: There's a lot of allegations of mistreatment. There's a lot 182 00:09:49,520 --> 00:09:52,110 Speaker 2: of concerns about access to health care and the provision 183 00:09:52,140 --> 00:09:54,689 Speaker 2: of health care to people under their care. 184 00:09:54,970 --> 00:09:59,130 Speaker 1: The toilets would back up and raw sewage would overflow 185 00:09:59,290 --> 00:10:00,540 Speaker 1: into the Kevlar tents. 186 00:10:00,900 --> 00:10:03,120 Speaker 2: A lot of this has come out. Across the years, 187 00:10:03,179 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 2: it's nothing new and the federal government's definitely aware of it. 188 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 8: An MTC spokesman emailed, we completely disagree with the anecdotal 189 00:10:09,860 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 8: allegations in the ACLU report. 190 00:10:11,820 --> 00:10:14,120 Speaker 2: So while the government is getting rid of Serco from 191 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,960 Speaker 2: the immigration detention network, there aren't any real hopes that 192 00:10:16,980 --> 00:10:18,640 Speaker 2: there's going to be a big change to the approach 193 00:10:18,660 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 2: because they're bringing in another company that's known for running 194 00:10:20,920 --> 00:10:21,880 Speaker 2: prisons in this way. 195 00:10:23,490 --> 00:10:25,449 Speaker 1: So they signed a contract. Do we know how much 196 00:10:25,490 --> 00:10:27,209 Speaker 1: that was for and over what period? 197 00:10:27,670 --> 00:10:30,530 Speaker 2: So the contract they've won runs for five years and 198 00:10:30,550 --> 00:10:33,120 Speaker 2: it's worth more than $ 2 billion. So it's another massive 199 00:10:33,150 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 2: contract running for a long time and they're operating all 200 00:10:35,940 --> 00:10:39,420 Speaker 2: the same facilities that Serco were. So they're taking over 201 00:10:39,540 --> 00:10:41,920 Speaker 2: from midway through this year. I think it's important to 202 00:10:41,980 --> 00:10:45,120 Speaker 2: note that Serco still has a massive presence in Australia. 203 00:10:45,300 --> 00:10:47,900 Speaker 2: They win a lot of government contracts and even in 204 00:10:47,940 --> 00:10:50,710 Speaker 2: the justice space, they still run two really big prisons 205 00:10:50,750 --> 00:10:54,490 Speaker 2: in Australia on massive contracts. So they run the Acacia 206 00:10:54,510 --> 00:10:57,270 Speaker 2: Prison in Western Australia and the Clarence Prison in New 207 00:10:57,309 --> 00:11:00,370 Speaker 2: South Wales, which is fairly new and it's the biggest 208 00:11:00,410 --> 00:11:03,270 Speaker 2: prison in Australia now. So they still have a massive presence, 209 00:11:03,360 --> 00:11:05,800 Speaker 2: even in justice and across everything else as well. 210 00:11:06,559 --> 00:11:09,819 Speaker 1: And just finally, you've been covering these issues for a 211 00:11:09,840 --> 00:11:13,300 Speaker 1: long time now. Just broadly, what do we need to 212 00:11:13,340 --> 00:11:17,830 Speaker 1: do with our detention and immigration system to change the 213 00:11:17,890 --> 00:11:21,430 Speaker 1: way we approach prison? asylum seekers and those on visas? 214 00:11:21,809 --> 00:11:23,410 Speaker 2: There's a lot we need to do. But I think 215 00:11:23,450 --> 00:11:25,670 Speaker 2: when it comes to these centres, I think it's the 216 00:11:25,710 --> 00:11:29,570 Speaker 2: approach to these people as criminals and that these places 217 00:11:29,670 --> 00:11:32,459 Speaker 2: are serving as another prison. If they're going to exist 218 00:11:32,500 --> 00:11:34,760 Speaker 2: at all, they're not meant to be places where people 219 00:11:34,800 --> 00:11:36,720 Speaker 2: spend a lot of time, but there are people spending 220 00:11:36,760 --> 00:11:38,859 Speaker 2: years there. So that needs to be looked at. And 221 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:41,579 Speaker 2: I think they're people that either have served a prison 222 00:11:41,600 --> 00:11:44,260 Speaker 2: sentence or haven't received any sentence, so they shouldn't be 223 00:11:44,300 --> 00:11:47,470 Speaker 2: treated like criminals. So I think that whole approach of 224 00:11:47,510 --> 00:11:52,240 Speaker 2: security above all else needs to be addressed. There's obviously 225 00:11:52,280 --> 00:11:55,240 Speaker 2: huge problems with offshore processing and how people are treated 226 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,640 Speaker 2: on Nauru. There's still people on Nauru. So that needs 227 00:11:58,660 --> 00:12:00,339 Speaker 2: to be addressed and those people need to be taken 228 00:12:00,380 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: off there. And I think it's a wider issue of 229 00:12:03,580 --> 00:12:07,080 Speaker 2: how we approach immigration and taking a more human rights 230 00:12:07,380 --> 00:12:10,950 Speaker 2: focused approach versus this treating as a national security issue 231 00:12:11,010 --> 00:12:13,230 Speaker 2: or a political tool that can be used to kind 232 00:12:13,250 --> 00:12:13,809 Speaker 2: of win votes. 233 00:12:15,690 --> 00:12:17,350 Speaker 1: Dan M, thanks for coming in. Thanks so much for 234 00:12:17,390 --> 00:12:17,770 Speaker 1: your time. 235 00:12:18,010 --> 00:12:18,590 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 236 00:12:20,510 --> 00:12:23,690 Speaker 1: In a statement to the Saturday paper, Serco said, We 237 00:12:23,750 --> 00:12:28,260 Speaker 1: strongly reject the assertions about Serco's operations. Serco's commitment to 238 00:12:28,300 --> 00:12:31,600 Speaker 1: the rights and welfare of detainees in our care has 239 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:44,070 Speaker 1: remained consistent since 2009. Tomorrow on 7am, space has been 240 00:12:44,110 --> 00:12:47,330 Speaker 1: militarised for decades, but now the US has confirmed it 241 00:12:47,370 --> 00:12:50,050 Speaker 1: has weapons in orbit. So what does that actually mean? 242 00:12:50,570 --> 00:12:52,699 Speaker 1: And are we entering a new era where the opening 243 00:12:52,740 --> 00:12:55,740 Speaker 1: moves of a war could happen hundreds of kilometres above us? 244 00:12:57,160 --> 00:13:00,760 Speaker 7: What certainly I think the Americans are anticipating is that 245 00:13:00,820 --> 00:13:03,180 Speaker 7: in the next war, at the outset of that war 246 00:13:03,230 --> 00:13:06,240 Speaker 7: or even prior to that war, you will see what's 247 00:13:06,260 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 7: known as grey zone operations in space where adversaries utilise 248 00:13:10,120 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 7: counter space capabilities to try and attack our critical space systems. 249 00:13:14,720 --> 00:13:17,790 Speaker 7: So the Americans want to be ready for that. It's 250 00:13:17,870 --> 00:13:20,209 Speaker 7: highlighting the risk that space war will happen in the 251 00:13:20,250 --> 00:13:20,690 Speaker 7: next war. 252 00:13:21,190 --> 00:13:22,910 Speaker 1: I'm Daniel James. Thanks for listening.