WEBVTT - #2032 The Neurotic Shrink - Dr. Mark Cross 0:00:01.000 --> 0:00:03.720 I get everyone. Shit, I'm excited to be here. It's 0:00:03.720 --> 0:00:06.880 four minutes past three, It's Monday. The good doc Mark 0:00:06.920 --> 0:00:10.840 Cross is here. Tiffany and Cook, who is the Coqueen 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:15.200 of typ is here, just battening down the hatches and steering, 0:00:15.680 --> 0:00:18.320 trying to keep Mark and Iron line. Basically, how are you, 0:00:18.360 --> 0:00:19.320 tiv It's. 0:00:19.120 --> 0:00:21.400 A big job, Harps. It is a big job. 0:00:21.720 --> 0:00:22.880 Is it raining where you are? 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:23.680 No? 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:27.520 But it looks pretty dark. It was raining earlier, happy summertime. 0:00:27.920 --> 0:00:32.240 It's pelting down over here in the very tropical confines 0:00:32.400 --> 0:00:36.159 of Bloody Hampton. But anyway, we do what we can. 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:38.519 It's Monday, first day of the week. We're sliding like 0:00:38.560 --> 0:00:41.559 piss blokes in a bar towards Christmas. Thirteen days to go, 0:00:43.520 --> 0:00:46.479 Oh my god, thirteen days. It's the twelfth. Well, as 0:00:46.479 --> 0:00:49.040 we're recording this, it's the twelfth. Are you Are you 0:00:49.080 --> 0:00:53.519 going home to step back in time, back to lawn Seston. 0:00:53.840 --> 0:00:57.240 No, I guess no, it's not lawn Sestin for a start. 0:00:57.280 --> 0:00:59.960 Good shout out tout my tazzy friends. I really love you. 0:01:00.080 --> 0:01:02.160 I used to live there. Going it is a bit 0:01:02.200 --> 0:01:03.920 of a time warped though, God bless. 0:01:03.920 --> 0:01:05.880 This year and next year. This is my plan. I'm 0:01:05.880 --> 0:01:07.800 going to go back in February each year. Have a 0:01:07.800 --> 0:01:09.840 guess why. I don't know if I've told you, I told. 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:14.880 You, uh, February each year. I know I've got my thing. 0:01:15.200 --> 0:01:19.480 My very elite grandfather turns ninety nine this February, so 0:01:19.520 --> 0:01:21.520 I'm pushing Christmas out ninety nine. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:22.840 Not many humans, not many men. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.240 Do you know? Only seventeen percent of men, seventeen percent 0:01:26.240 --> 0:01:28.000 of people that reach one hundred and men. 0:01:28.600 --> 0:01:32.240 Yeah, that it was elite. Well, we burn ourselves out 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:37.440 because we're dickheads, and we're just we just we just 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:39.720 run a Mark I tell you who, I tell you 0:01:39.720 --> 0:01:41.360 he's not a dickhead, and he's probably going to live 0:01:41.360 --> 0:01:44.160 to one hundred and twenty, especially because he's sipping on 0:01:44.240 --> 0:01:48.559 twenty seven dollars sparkling water. So fucking fancy, Mark Cross, 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:49.560 you paid too much. 0:01:53.360 --> 0:01:55.320 I'm trying to work out when I'm supposed to not 0:01:55.400 --> 0:01:58.080 to say here, I've got a plotty mouth. I think 0:01:58.080 --> 0:01:59.080 you've just beaten me in. 0:01:59.640 --> 0:02:03.000 No. Yeah, well let's see. I want you to step 0:02:03.080 --> 0:02:05.240 up to the plate. But it is funny because I 0:02:05.280 --> 0:02:09.359 do have, as you say, quite a good diagnosis, Doc, 0:02:09.440 --> 0:02:12.920 I do have a potty mouth. And but what's funny 0:02:13.000 --> 0:02:17.240 is there's something mystical that happens when people, when really 0:02:17.320 --> 0:02:23.240 proper refined. Often academics come on the you project. About 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:27.560 halfway through they stumble through the swearing door themselves. So 0:02:27.720 --> 0:02:30.560 people who would never in a million years say fuck 0:02:30.680 --> 0:02:33.760 or shit or bum or bugger or bitch or whatever 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.920 on an interview of any kind, they start swearing, don't 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:39.320 they tiff? 0:02:39.680 --> 0:02:42.160 Yeah, look what you've done to me? 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:46.040 Yeah? I know you used to be quite respectable anyway, 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.600 Doctor Mark Cross, let me read some of your bio. 0:02:48.720 --> 0:02:51.720 Does doctoring differently? The first openly gay man twin Father 0:02:51.800 --> 0:02:54.760 of the Year, Marcus also lived experience of one of 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:57.600 the conditions he treats. He's been anxious since he was 0:02:57.639 --> 0:02:59.960 for I loved it when I read that. His empathy 0:03:00.120 --> 0:03:04.080 humor making one of Australia's most life psychiatrists. He's a 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.960 psych with clinical experience spanning three decades. He graduated as 0:03:07.960 --> 0:03:11.600 a doctor in Cape Down Yeah bro Shame, specializing in 0:03:11.600 --> 0:03:14.520 the UK, and has worked in as a specialist in 0:03:14.560 --> 0:03:17.320 Sydney since two thousand and five. There's lots more, but 0:03:17.400 --> 0:03:21.560 we'll hear about it from him, Doctor Mark officially, Welcome 0:03:21.600 --> 0:03:22.760 to the You project, sir. 0:03:23.440 --> 0:03:25.200 Thank you so much. It's just funny that you just 0:03:25.200 --> 0:03:28.120 said all that. I swear a lot, but I've just 0:03:28.320 --> 0:03:31.320 mentioned before it has been back to South Africa after 0:03:31.360 --> 0:03:33.239 three years, you know, COVID all that sort of stuff, 0:03:33.360 --> 0:03:35.880 to see my parents. My father just burst into tears 0:03:35.880 --> 0:03:39.120 when you huge me. Oh, it's lovely and you talk 0:03:39.160 --> 0:03:42.640 about posh, you know, water whatever. I'm a boy from 0:03:42.680 --> 0:03:46.440 the Burbs and it's like it's always it's always going good, 0:03:46.480 --> 0:03:48.600 going back to your roots. Right. So I'm doing a 0:03:48.640 --> 0:03:51.440 documentary with Allison you talk to her, my manager and 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.440 best friend. You documentary at my school next year. I'm 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:59.200 forty years out of high school. Wow, lovely school, and 0:03:59.240 --> 0:04:01.600 it's we're going to look at we got to go 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.600 on from Mardi Gras and growing up gay in the 0:04:03.640 --> 0:04:07.520 seventies and eighties. Obviously it wasn't that much fun. And 0:04:07.600 --> 0:04:10.440 now at the school they got the first genine you, 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.280 toul toilets and trans students going to the metric ball 0:04:13.520 --> 0:04:16.520 and it's pretty amazing. So we're going to do it 0:04:16.560 --> 0:04:19.320 then and now. But of course I go to the school, 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:21.640 right and all of a sudden, I realized I'm a 0:04:21.680 --> 0:04:27.320 person of high net worth to myself. When you talking 0:04:27.320 --> 0:04:31.000 about I go w TAF in my head. Every single 0:04:31.040 --> 0:04:33.920 time they're looking at me, and we'll be doing very 0:04:33.960 --> 0:04:37.000 serious conversations or whatever. I'm going. I rode my bicycle 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:38.720 from the birds to school every day. 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:41.799 Yeah. Yeah. Do you feel like I'm just an older 0:04:41.880 --> 0:04:44.039 version of you? I know you think I'm special and 0:04:44.440 --> 0:04:46.640 all that bullshit and clever, but I'm not. I'm just 0:04:46.760 --> 0:04:48.000 you in a different time. 0:04:50.839 --> 0:04:53.279 It's a weird thing looking at past cells and now, 0:04:53.320 --> 0:04:56.919 because it's always part of you, right. My problem is 0:04:56.920 --> 0:05:02.839 with the anxiety and the constant need to overcompensate for 0:05:03.000 --> 0:05:05.800 all of that. It's a constant sort of thing in 0:05:05.800 --> 0:05:07.640 my head. My head never stops, you know, and I'm going, 0:05:07.960 --> 0:05:09.760 I really should be doing Benny here, I'm going to 0:05:09.760 --> 0:05:13.239 do this perfectly perfection traits and all that sort of stuff, 0:05:13.560 --> 0:05:15.120 and then you sit back and go, you know what, 0:05:15.279 --> 0:05:20.400 there are some advantages to getting old, and this is 0:05:20.560 --> 0:05:23.400 part of it. So now it's sort of like, hey, 0:05:23.400 --> 0:05:25.440 I'm getting a little bit more chilled in my approach 0:05:25.480 --> 0:05:27.719 to when I see people, and I don't have to 0:05:27.880 --> 0:05:30.840 constantly think, oh, I'm going to prove something to them 0:05:31.200 --> 0:05:33.200 that there is that, especially when you go back to 0:05:33.240 --> 0:05:36.479 your past. Yeah, have to prove something even though you 0:05:36.640 --> 0:05:37.040 left it. 0:05:37.120 --> 0:05:41.760 And it's funny. In some places, Doc, I feel quite 0:05:41.800 --> 0:05:45.320 competent and confident, not over the top, you know. But 0:05:46.040 --> 0:05:49.720 and then in other situations, circumstance, environment, people, I can 0:05:49.760 --> 0:05:52.880 feel like the biggest fuck with ever, you know. So 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:56.680 for me, it's contextual. It depends who I'm with, where 0:05:56.680 --> 0:05:59.760 I'm at, what I'm doing. Like when I started my 0:06:00.200 --> 0:06:03.359 HD three and a bit years ago, I felt like 0:06:04.000 --> 0:06:07.839 I definitely shouldn't be there. I'm not smart enough, I'm 0:06:07.880 --> 0:06:12.400 too old, I'm like every reason to undermine myself, to 0:06:12.560 --> 0:06:15.880 self sabotage, to fuck it up. That's all I could 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.000 think of. For the first six months. I felt like 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:19.159 a complete fraud. 0:06:20.240 --> 0:06:22.680 Yeah, but you know that imposter syndrome that I am 0:06:23.200 --> 0:06:26.760 keen sort of you know, board member of committee. It 0:06:26.800 --> 0:06:28.560 does come out right, But I think that makes you 0:06:28.600 --> 0:06:31.120 a bit of You're a better person if you have that, 0:06:31.960 --> 0:06:35.560 rather than being too overconfident, cocky in an arshole. I mean, 0:06:35.720 --> 0:06:36.880 you know that's. 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.160 Are they clinical terms. I'm just I'm taking notes. 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.679 It's in the DSM six that's still. 0:06:47.160 --> 0:06:51.800 That's hilarious. And so when you when you're reflecting on 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.680 you in the seventies and you in the eighties as 0:06:54.720 --> 0:07:01.679 a an overthinking, you know, self conscious gay kid trying 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:06.520 to navigate life. When you went back to your school, 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.000 did stuff come up for you? 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:11.800 I think the first yeares because actually I left. It 0:07:11.880 --> 0:07:14.240 was so funny because I'm prenny with Osha Gunsberg, right, 0:07:14.960 --> 0:07:16.320 and I love him. We were on the board of 0:07:16.360 --> 0:07:20.000 Saying together and during the Schizophrenia Week two years ago, 0:07:20.000 --> 0:07:21.560 he said, hey, come let me chat to you about 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:23.760 you know, schizophrenia and your work as a psychiatrist and 0:07:23.760 --> 0:07:26.320 blah blah blah, and you start the podcast and like you, 0:07:26.320 --> 0:07:28.880 he just turned to me and went, so tell me 0:07:29.400 --> 0:07:31.960 what was it like growing up fucking gay in South Africa? 0:07:32.560 --> 0:07:35.880 That's I said, was supposed to be talking about schizophrenia. Now, 0:07:35.920 --> 0:07:39.760 thanks very much, chat about I did not go back 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:43.240 to my school or the environment for thirty four years, 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.320 and then seven years ago I got in touch with 0:07:47.520 --> 0:07:50.480 my ex biology teacher. I used her notes in my 0:07:50.560 --> 0:07:52.560 first year at medical school. That's how good she was, 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.920 you know, survivgy on that all and she is an 0:07:56.920 --> 0:08:02.000 amazing woman because she's quite religious. And I thought when 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.520 I wrote to her that it was all my own stuff. 0:08:05.520 --> 0:08:08.720 You know, you got your own stuff from when you're younger. 0:08:10.440 --> 0:08:14.000 And I took John with me to dinner and she 0:08:14.080 --> 0:08:16.080 opened the door, gave me a big hug, and there 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.080 was her gay friends from Amsterdam, who part of a 0:08:19.160 --> 0:08:24.080 charity that she's also involved with for years. She goes, Mike, 0:08:24.160 --> 0:08:28.560 I've always been pretty gay friendly and open, and but 0:08:28.600 --> 0:08:31.280 you don't see that when you're younger and looking inward 0:08:31.400 --> 0:08:34.400 and worrying about your own stuff all the time. It 0:08:34.440 --> 0:08:38.360 was amazing. So yeah, so I've reconnected with my school, 0:08:38.800 --> 0:08:40.080 which I never thought I would. 0:08:41.480 --> 0:08:43.559 How How I mean, I'm sure you've been asked this 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:47.600 a thousand times, but as ever, as long or brief 0:08:47.679 --> 0:08:52.600 as you want, But what was school like for you? 0:08:52.920 --> 0:08:55.280 High school? You know, I was a prefect, I did 0:08:55.320 --> 0:08:58.480 well and was but it was it was completely hidden. 0:08:58.720 --> 0:09:01.880 I didn't want to acknowledge that I was gay. I 0:09:02.000 --> 0:09:04.800 knew it, you know, in some level. And when I 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.600 was fifteen, in my year ten equivalent, I was bullied 0:09:08.640 --> 0:09:11.360 a bit and it was difficulty at school and I 0:09:11.480 --> 0:09:13.880 actually i wasn't in the top three for the first time. 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:15.360 That might sound a bit weird to people, but it 0:09:15.400 --> 0:09:18.240 was the only year in the form, and I thought, well, 0:09:18.360 --> 0:09:21.480 I did no one pick this up? Right? But I 0:09:21.600 --> 0:09:26.599 also in looking back, I was quite a strong personality 0:09:26.679 --> 0:09:30.959 kid too. And and to shows you how young our 0:09:30.960 --> 0:09:33.240 teachers were out forty years on, four of them are 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:35.679 still teaching at my school, and one of them is 0:09:35.679 --> 0:09:37.480 a school counselor. And I'm going to talk to him 0:09:37.520 --> 0:09:41.000 on the documentary next time. He's saying, Mark, I didn't 0:09:41.000 --> 0:09:43.720 think you had any issues. You looked you always looked 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.079 so suave and fine at school and you were in control. Meanwhile, 0:09:47.320 --> 0:09:49.880 inside I was going, what the hell I need help? 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:51.240 But nobody picked it up. 0:09:51.800 --> 0:09:55.839 Yeah. Yeah, but I think we become and whether or 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.240 not it's we're trying to hide our sexuality or or 0:09:59.280 --> 0:10:03.439 something else, you know, whether or not it's you know, anxiety, 0:10:03.440 --> 0:10:06.600 we're trying to pretend we're confident or or we feel 0:10:06.600 --> 0:10:10.080 inadequate or imposter syndrome. I feel like there's the persona. 0:10:10.280 --> 0:10:13.880 There's the the work persona, the school persona, the public 0:10:14.000 --> 0:10:16.760 kind of thing, and then there's the person underneath it. 0:10:17.240 --> 0:10:21.400 And opening that door and being vulnerable. You know, that's 0:10:21.440 --> 0:10:23.040 the challenge, isn't it. 0:10:23.040 --> 0:10:25.679 It is a huge challenge and one that I've accepted 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:27.760 because you know, go, what do I want to do 0:10:27.800 --> 0:10:29.480 when I get older? I want to be the real me. 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:31.640 I want to be open about who I am. I 0:10:31.679 --> 0:10:34.600 want to about who I am to the people I treat. 0:10:34.840 --> 0:10:39.640 And I've had various levels of me saying about that 0:10:39.880 --> 0:10:42.920 or advice that I shouldn't do that. We got taught 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:46.160 at medical school in the eighties to be stiff upper 0:10:46.200 --> 0:10:50.719 lip doctors. No, bess, don't show anything of yourself. I've 0:10:50.760 --> 0:10:53.959 just ignored that most of my life, but I haven't 0:10:54.000 --> 0:10:57.160 really come out. If somebody asked me, it was it's 0:10:57.240 --> 0:11:00.280 only women who are menic that ever asked me out right. 0:11:00.280 --> 0:11:02.960 It's so funny in my work, and then of course 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:05.719 I say, yeah, I am. I'm not going to lie. 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.640 But there was that pressure not to be open, certainly 0:11:09.640 --> 0:11:13.520 in the eighties and nineties as a psychiatrist. So's it's 0:11:13.559 --> 0:11:16.160 quite liberating in one level. But I gave a speech 0:11:16.200 --> 0:11:18.080 about it a couple of years ago and the professor 0:11:18.240 --> 0:11:20.840 I'm not friendly with you came up to me and 0:11:20.880 --> 0:11:23.880 he said, Mark you very brave, and I go, well, 0:11:24.280 --> 0:11:31.160 why I'm just being myself. That's not bravery, that's that's 0:11:31.840 --> 0:11:34.640 maybe it is part I don't know's how are we 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.760 supposed to help others with their emotional journey or mental 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:40.840 health journey if you can't be open about who you 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.920 are and what you are and so many people, most 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:48.560 of the people I treat, it's trauma, trauma, trauma, traumaun 0:11:48.960 --> 0:11:53.280 and because society doesn't accept them whatever was. Of course, 0:11:53.360 --> 0:11:56.120 I think that's leading away in a way, but because 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:58.040 it doesn't make it less anxiety provoking. 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:01.840 But yeah, I agree with you, and I think that 0:12:02.440 --> 0:12:05.040 if you're the best in inverted commas, whatever that means, 0:12:05.040 --> 0:12:08.400 you're the best clinician, the best psychiatrist, the best doctor, 0:12:08.400 --> 0:12:10.600 You've got the highest IQ, you've got the best marks, 0:12:10.600 --> 0:12:15.520 you've got the most knowledge, but you're an unapproachable prick 0:12:16.240 --> 0:12:18.360 and I don't get any warmth from you, and you 0:12:18.400 --> 0:12:22.160 don't seem to care about me, and you've got the 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:27.480 emotional intelligence of a fucking stamp, and like, it's one 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:31.040 thing to be brilliant and to understand human behavior and 0:12:31.080 --> 0:12:34.520 all of that, but we as patients, what we want 0:12:34.559 --> 0:12:37.439 from you is we want you to give a fuck 0:12:37.880 --> 0:12:40.120 like I actually want to like you. It doesn't matter 0:12:40.120 --> 0:12:42.760 how brilliant you are. If I'm not comfortable with you, 0:12:42.840 --> 0:12:44.800 if I don't think you care, if I don't think 0:12:44.840 --> 0:12:48.200 you're genuine, I'm not coming back or I'm definitely not 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:50.280 trusting you. Even if I have to come. 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:54.040 Back, I agree, I've got and add to that, I 0:12:54.040 --> 0:12:57.720 could just only openly agree. And I've had to close 0:12:57.760 --> 0:13:00.280 my books because I'm so busy. So being open hasn't 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:03.800 hurt me professionally in any way, or hasn't hurt my 0:13:03.840 --> 0:13:08.160 career at all, and in fact, it's made it stronger 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:12.480 and more meaningful. And you know, I want to be treated. 0:13:13.360 --> 0:13:16.640 I treat people like my family, or I think would 0:13:16.679 --> 0:13:18.640 my family if this is a member of my family, 0:13:18.679 --> 0:13:21.160 this is my son, would I want the doctor or 0:13:21.160 --> 0:13:26.719 the team to react in this way. That's why I've 0:13:26.720 --> 0:13:30.320 always practiced right, and it's and I tell my patients 0:13:30.320 --> 0:13:32.800 if you're seeing a psychologist or somebody or even a psychotriage, 0:13:32.800 --> 0:13:34.320 don't have to stay with me, and so we don't gel. 0:13:34.360 --> 0:13:34.920 That's fine. 0:13:35.440 --> 0:13:37.079 Yeah, at the end of the day, if you don't. 0:13:36.920 --> 0:13:39.839 Jail with someone, then it's your right to go. This 0:13:39.880 --> 0:13:43.080 isn't working for me. I don't find someone else. The 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:44.960 problem is sometimes you can't find someone else. 0:13:45.000 --> 0:13:48.280 That's true. And the thing is, and I've said this 0:13:48.360 --> 0:13:52.280 before and on this show, you know, like I said 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.040 to you before we press the go, but not done. 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:58.439 How We've done over a thousand shows, and I've got 0:13:58.480 --> 0:14:00.680 lots of bullshit and lots of issues self doubt and 0:14:00.720 --> 0:14:05.640 insecurity and overthinking and you know, and it goes in 0:14:05.720 --> 0:14:08.439 waves of where I feel better or worse about myself 0:14:08.559 --> 0:14:11.400 and ego and bullshit. And I want you to love 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:12.960 me because I'm an only child and I was a 0:14:13.000 --> 0:14:16.000 fat kid, and I was all these things. But the 0:14:16.000 --> 0:14:19.400 more that you know without being too self indulgent or 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:22.120 boring people to death with your own bullshit. But for me, 0:14:22.240 --> 0:14:30.560 the more honest you are and authentic, the more people 0:14:30.680 --> 0:14:33.640 relate to you. It's like, yes, you're a doctor, Yes 0:14:33.680 --> 0:14:35.800 you understand the mind, and yes you understand the brain 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:38.440 and human behavior, and yes you're well trained and qualified, 0:14:38.920 --> 0:14:41.840 but also you get them like you get them on 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:45.240 a personal level, and they get you because you're kind 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.120 of like them, you know. And I think that it's 0:14:48.240 --> 0:14:52.000 ironic that they say, correct me if I fuck this up, Doc, 0:14:52.080 --> 0:14:53.640 But they kind of say to you, be a bit 0:14:53.640 --> 0:14:57.240 of a closed book, don't open up, don't be vulnerable 0:14:57.280 --> 0:14:59.920 with your patients, don't let them really know anything about 0:15:00.120 --> 0:15:03.440 you or your personal life. And that's a directive which 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:07.520 I think actually produces the opposite of what's required for 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:08.760 great session. 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:13.920 And it leads to so many issues in members of 0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:18.080 my profession. You know, surprise, we've got high drug alcohol rates, 0:15:18.120 --> 0:15:21.600 divorce rates, especially in the females, and our professional highest 0:15:21.600 --> 0:15:26.680 suicide rates than the average population. But you still don't 0:15:27.040 --> 0:15:30.800 It's still considered a weakness. You come for help if 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:32.640 you've got mental health issues, which of course I'm trying 0:15:32.640 --> 0:15:35.600 to break down. Those barriers go back to how we're 0:15:35.600 --> 0:15:39.960 supposed to interact with someone. Yes, you've got to be open, 0:15:40.280 --> 0:15:42.960 and I think COVID showing that right. So look at 0:15:43.000 --> 0:15:46.119 us now chatting. Melbourne's having a great. 0:15:46.240 --> 0:15:47.360 Now I didn't. 0:15:47.560 --> 0:15:52.200 I hadn't heard of zoom before. The guy who invented 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:54.920 zoom or whatever sold it just before COVID sounds like 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.280 a lovely guy. When do these things happen? But you know, 0:15:57.680 --> 0:15:59.200 we all know what it is now, right, and this 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:01.800 is how we can can actually interact. I saw all 0:16:01.880 --> 0:16:05.960 my regular patients and consumers on my service in their 0:16:06.000 --> 0:16:08.000 homes for the first time, so you know, they talk 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:09.640 about the cats and the dogs and the kids, and 0:16:09.680 --> 0:16:11.520 couple were smoking in front of me, going hey, doctor, 0:16:11.600 --> 0:16:13.320 and I can smoke in front of you now I'm 0:16:13.400 --> 0:16:17.520 in my house, showing me that there was even more 0:16:17.560 --> 0:16:22.440 of a connection. I think this medium and what am 0:16:22.480 --> 0:16:24.600 I supposed to do? A couple of times I was 0:16:24.640 --> 0:16:28.320 in my gym jams, I was cold and I'm not bloody, 0:16:28.400 --> 0:16:31.760 changing laugh together and going, well, you know, we don't 0:16:31.800 --> 0:16:34.200 have to focus on that. We're having a nice chat. 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.000 How are you doing. Let's just work out how you 0:16:38.680 --> 0:16:41.240 stay well or we can maintain wellness during this really 0:16:41.280 --> 0:16:45.000 difficult time. But being open with each other and showing 0:16:45.040 --> 0:16:47.120 us I was because you still have to have boundaries people, 0:16:48.120 --> 0:16:50.480 that's very important. You've got to have boundaries, of course, 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:52.760 but they don't have to be rigid, and they don't 0:16:52.840 --> 0:16:56.760 have to be one sided, you know, one on one. 0:16:56.880 --> 0:16:59.240 Don't have sex with your patients. I think that's quite 0:16:59.280 --> 0:17:00.680 a good one too. You go by you. 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:06.400 I stick by that, yeah, I reckon. Personal trainers need 0:17:06.440 --> 0:17:09.240 to know that. One to doc, because that doesn't end well. 0:17:10.840 --> 0:17:12.960 Well, trust if I haven't worked in the gym industry 0:17:12.960 --> 0:17:13.600 for many years. 0:17:13.600 --> 0:17:16.119 So I'll tell you what. There's a whole lot of 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:18.760 the dance with no pants that goes on between trainers 0:17:18.760 --> 0:17:22.680 and clients. Don't worry about that. Oh what, no, fuck off? 0:17:22.680 --> 0:17:27.040 That doesn't. Yeah, anyway, moving on, So I want to 0:17:27.080 --> 0:17:33.399 ask you, doctor Mark, if if anxiety is on a 0:17:33.520 --> 0:17:38.200 scale from say one to ten, could you describe one 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.639 and could you describe ten? And I know this is 0:17:41.680 --> 0:17:45.720 a bullshit scale that I just hypothetically created for this conversation, 0:17:45.880 --> 0:17:49.320 but if there's a obviously it's not. It's not the 0:17:49.320 --> 0:17:53.720 same earth intensity or volume or experience for everyone, and 0:17:54.160 --> 0:17:56.960 somebody's one might be someone else's for I get that, 0:17:57.040 --> 0:17:59.320 but in general terms, what does a one or two 0:17:59.440 --> 0:18:01.480 look like? So what does a nine or ten look like? 0:18:01.880 --> 0:18:05.399 Yeah? Sure, no, that's I ask people to do that 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.520 all the time. So one is you're starting to feel 0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:11.800 that sort of fight or flight sort of heart rate 0:18:11.880 --> 0:18:13.960 going a bit stem, to feel a bit anxious, sweaty 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:18.359 thinking about something that's about to transpire or thinking about 0:18:18.359 --> 0:18:21.120 something that's not going to transpire. Because that's generalized anxiety. 0:18:21.119 --> 0:18:23.119 It's sort and you're starting to overthink. But then you 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:24.840 can go, you know what, I'm using my skills and 0:18:24.880 --> 0:18:27.399 I'm going to go and ground myself and go for 0:18:27.480 --> 0:18:30.040 a walk and all those sort of things at work, 0:18:30.200 --> 0:18:32.840 and so it doesn't really affect your functioning because it's 0:18:32.840 --> 0:18:37.159 always a mixture of symptoms and then functioning, right, so 0:18:37.240 --> 0:18:42.639 you're coping. It's affecting you about nothing as sort of 0:18:42.640 --> 0:18:46.879 grounding mindful technique won't sort of help with TO ten, 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:51.320 which is panic attack, and that is where you are 0:18:51.840 --> 0:18:54.760 so worked up that your heart's and your mouth going 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.320 one hundred and forty miles an hour, your chests constricting 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.160 your pupils, dilating you in that really I'm just about 0:19:02.160 --> 0:19:05.119 to jump the fence with no external danger sort of 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:09.200 you feel you're dying from a heart attack. And then 0:19:09.520 --> 0:19:13.440 often where people present to the emergency development right because 0:19:13.480 --> 0:19:16.080 they think they're dying, they're about to faint from all 0:19:16.119 --> 0:19:20.000 this horrible stuff going in their bodies and their minds, 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.280 and you cannot talk yourself out of it or use 0:19:23.280 --> 0:19:26.520 your grunting. That's out of the window, and you're then 0:19:26.720 --> 0:19:32.400 walking in an increasingly loop wormhole. You're gotting down. That's 0:19:32.400 --> 0:19:33.240 where I put ten. 0:19:33.800 --> 0:19:36.840 Yeah, and I guess when you're up around that nine ten, 0:19:37.720 --> 0:19:41.040 and then you get overwhelmed by what's going on physiologically 0:19:41.119 --> 0:19:44.200 in a heart rate, adrenaline, all of those things, sympathetic, 0:19:44.240 --> 0:19:48.600 nervous system, dad that are and you then you start 0:19:48.640 --> 0:19:52.240 to think you're going to die. That just as you said, 0:19:52.320 --> 0:19:57.200 that exacerbates. So what's the circuit breaker or is there 0:19:57.240 --> 0:20:01.600 not one? Is it just time? Is it just yeah? 0:20:01.960 --> 0:20:04.479 Rather than I offer answers, why don't you just help us? 0:20:04.720 --> 0:20:06.360 No? No, no, it is are you I mean you talked 0:20:06.400 --> 0:20:09.440 about exercise physiology earlier. I'm really a fan of that now. 0:20:09.440 --> 0:20:11.959 I mean I think in terms of you learn some 0:20:11.960 --> 0:20:15.080 preventative measures, so you cut it off at the past 0:20:15.119 --> 0:20:18.919 before it gets to that point. But then you've got 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:22.359 measures in place, skills that you've learned. And this is 0:20:22.400 --> 0:20:25.320 for people who've had it before. When first when it 0:20:25.359 --> 0:20:27.800 first comes on, sometimes you're not prepared for it, and 0:20:27.800 --> 0:20:30.679 then it's bloody awful, right, and then the circuit breaker 0:20:30.720 --> 0:20:34.640 often there is getting help. Hopefully you've got somebody around 0:20:34.680 --> 0:20:36.440 who can talk you down and help you, or you 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:40.560 end up in the emergency department. So the circuit breaker 0:20:41.920 --> 0:20:46.800 is those sort of grounding techniques that we've talk including exercise, 0:20:47.400 --> 0:20:52.679 and maybe one simple way of saying this is I 0:20:52.720 --> 0:20:55.119 said to people, you've got the emotional mind, you've got 0:20:55.160 --> 0:20:59.720 an emotional response, cognition and thinking about things and talking 0:20:59.840 --> 0:21:03.119 through who comes later. At that moment, you have to 0:21:03.119 --> 0:21:07.399 do something physical. And part of grounding techniques is that 0:21:07.440 --> 0:21:10.159 you know, you go barefoot into the mud or sand outside, 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.920 you hold it the ice. You've got to do something physical, 0:21:14.040 --> 0:21:18.720 shock yourself out what's happening to you in your body 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:22.200 at the time, and then you go, oh, okay, now 0:21:22.200 --> 0:21:25.239 I'm thinking, oh that's right. Mindful techniques or exercise, Let 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.359 me go for a little walk around the block, go 0:21:27.840 --> 0:21:30.640 kill some tree, bark things like that, that real sort 0:21:30.680 --> 0:21:34.879 of physicality that's important, and then come back. Then I 0:21:34.920 --> 0:21:39.760 can look at some of my more intellectual exercises and 0:21:39.880 --> 0:21:44.040 start the positive self talk that be useful. 0:21:45.960 --> 0:21:48.560