WEBVTT - Hannah Ferguson on the politics of hate speech

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM. On Monday,

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<v Speaker 1>Parliament will return early to debate new laws to deal

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<v Speaker 1>with hate speech and gun ownership. The legislation has been

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<v Speaker 1>drafted in a hurry, under mounting pressure in the aftermath

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<v Speaker 1>of the Bondai terror attack. By support for the bill

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<v Speaker 1>has already fractioned. The Coalition says it goes too far,

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<v Speaker 1>the Greens say doesn't go far enough. Both want more

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<v Speaker 1>time to consider changes. The debate over what is and

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<v Speaker 1>is in hate is unfolding at a time of deep

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<v Speaker 1>political division, with consequences not just for Parliament but for

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<v Speaker 1>Australia's cultural institutions. Today, CEO of Cheek Media and host

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<v Speaker 1>of the Big Small Talk podcast Hannah Ferguson on the

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<v Speaker 1>politics of hate speech and how a fight over free

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<v Speaker 1>expression spilled into the arts. It's Saturday, January seventy Henna,

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<v Speaker 1>thanks for joining us. It's great to have you on

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<v Speaker 1>seven Am.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited

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<v Speaker 2>to be here.

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<v Speaker 1>Let's start with the government's new hate speech legislation. Can

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<v Speaker 1>you give us a sense of what it is they

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<v Speaker 1>are proposing.

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<v Speaker 2>They're progressing a lot now.

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<v Speaker 3>It covers everything from you know, customs and migration changes too.

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<v Speaker 2>Basically like major anti terrorism reform.

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<v Speaker 4>It increases the penalties for hate crimes offenses. It ensures

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<v Speaker 4>that defenders whose crimes were motivated by extremism had that

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<v Speaker 4>factored into their sentencing. It creates a new offense for

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<v Speaker 4>inciting hatred in order to intimidate all harass.

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<v Speaker 3>But I think there's two specific parts that have people

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<v Speaker 3>most concerned.

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<v Speaker 2>One is a new federal offense for inciting hatred.

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<v Speaker 4>It expands and strengthens the ban on prohibited symbols, and

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<v Speaker 4>it makes it easier for the Minister for Home Affairs

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<v Speaker 4>to cancel or refuse a visa for people intent on

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<v Speaker 4>spreading hatred.

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<v Speaker 2>And the second is a new regime for outlawing hate groups.

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<v Speaker 3>So they're kind of the two major aspects of this

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<v Speaker 3>bill that are being considered highly contentious right now.

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<v Speaker 4>Once an organization is listed, it will be a criminal

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<v Speaker 4>offense to be a member, to recruit for it, to

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<v Speaker 4>donate or receive funds, or support that group in any way.

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<v Speaker 3>The federal offense for inciting hatred is an interesting one

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<v Speaker 3>because it makes it illegal to publicly promote or incite

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<v Speaker 3>racial hatred, but the test is a reasonable person test,

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<v Speaker 3>so it's not whether someone actually experienced intimidation, fear, harassment,

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<v Speaker 3>or that actual hatred has been proven, but whether a

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<v Speaker 3>reasonable person from the targeting group would feel that. So

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<v Speaker 3>that's kind of one of the aspects that I think

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<v Speaker 3>has come up a lot in the media in the

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<v Speaker 3>past couple of days. And then there's the aspect with

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<v Speaker 3>the sort of regime or scheme for prescribing hate groups,

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<v Speaker 3>which is groups that don't fit the mold for a

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<v Speaker 3>definition of a terrorist group but are before that when

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<v Speaker 3>they're engaging in acts of what would be considered hate

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<v Speaker 3>crimes under the Criminal Code.

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<v Speaker 1>Saying, both the Greens and the Coalitions say they won't

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<v Speaker 1>support the bill as it stands. Why is that.

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<v Speaker 3>I think there's very different reasons for the Greens and

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<v Speaker 3>the Coalition's disagreement and opposition to the bill. So we've

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<v Speaker 3>seen from the Greens leaders like David Shubridge, Marine Ferouki

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<v Speaker 3>and Larissa Waters who are opposing the bill because they

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<v Speaker 3>want it to consider their sort of national framework for

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<v Speaker 3>anti racism and expand beyond just racial issues, so into

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<v Speaker 3>areas like protection to the LGBTQIA plus community. We are

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<v Speaker 3>hearing new concerns and red flags every single day, and

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<v Speaker 3>the Greens will not be supporting this bill in its

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<v Speaker 3>current form.

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<v Speaker 5>The same hateful ideology that was directed against the Jewish

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<v Speaker 5>community at Onbi could have as easily been directed against

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<v Speaker 5>women in positions of power or the LGBTQ community.

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<v Speaker 3>Whereas the Coalition is opposing the bill for different reasons.

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<v Speaker 3>Opposition Leader Susan Lee described it as unsalvageable and said

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<v Speaker 3>I think explicitly that the bill didn't contain reference to

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<v Speaker 3>radical Islam.

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<v Speaker 6>The legislation does not address the real issues that gave

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<v Speaker 6>rise to the Bondai attack. It doesn't address Islamic extremism,

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<v Speaker 6>it doesn't address isis influence and shed.

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<v Speaker 3>The Prime Minister can't name the problem, they can't solve

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<v Speaker 3>the problem. So we're seeing the coalition quite contrastingly appealed

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<v Speaker 3>to only wanting the bill to actually protect certain minority groups.

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<v Speaker 1>Yep Assie just said very different reasons for not supporting

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<v Speaker 1>the hate speech aspects of this bill. Is this a

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<v Speaker 1>sign that the government hasn't done enough to bring their

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<v Speaker 1>parliamentary colleagues along.

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<v Speaker 3>I think yes, it is a side of that, but

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<v Speaker 3>we always knew that following the Bondi terror attack on

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<v Speaker 3>the fourteenth of December, it's only been a month. It's

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<v Speaker 3>been a Christmas period of grief and of mourning and

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<v Speaker 3>of a lot of harm between political parties and then

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<v Speaker 3>messaging through the media to the public. So we always

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<v Speaker 3>do it's going to be contentious, highly politicized, and I

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<v Speaker 3>think every party has fallen into the kind of tropes

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<v Speaker 3>at the Australian part public would assume of them. But

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<v Speaker 3>I do think the government has failed on a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of fronts. They have failed to consult the stakeholders necessary,

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<v Speaker 3>they have failed to look at into the expert advice

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<v Speaker 3>and there's only been a forty eight hour public consultation

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<v Speaker 3>period for a very significant and complex piece of legislation.

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<v Speaker 2>So not only have they failed to bring their colleagues along,

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<v Speaker 2>their failed to bring the country along.

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<v Speaker 1>If we focus on the coalition, they've been highly critical

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<v Speaker 1>of the government for not recalling parliament right after Bondai.

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<v Speaker 6>The first thing that needs to happen urgently is for

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<v Speaker 6>the parliament to be recalled.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't heard the Prime Minister to give a date.

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<v Speaker 2>I haven't heard that.

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<v Speaker 1>Now they're saying they can't support the bill because they

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<v Speaker 1>are too rushed. So this is a very very rush process.

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<v Speaker 6>From what we have seen so far, it looks pretty unsalvagable.

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<v Speaker 1>What does their response over the summer signal about how

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<v Speaker 1>they're likely to approach next week?

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<v Speaker 3>The Coalition is really right now running our political game

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<v Speaker 3>of making a lot of noise but no clear points.

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<v Speaker 3>They are going to flip flop all over the place

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<v Speaker 3>because they are rapidly losing support not only to Labor

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<v Speaker 3>and the Greens, but to one nation as well. So

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<v Speaker 3>it's really, I think a race to the bottom, one

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<v Speaker 3>actually representing the Australian public and having reasonable conversations and

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<v Speaker 3>instead forsuably from my perspective, my personal opinion is it

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<v Speaker 3>the Coalition right now just trying to find fights and

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<v Speaker 3>stoke division, which is exactly the opposite of what the

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<v Speaker 3>country needs right now.

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<v Speaker 1>And to that point, Seasonally wants this to be about

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<v Speaker 1>radical Islam and anti Semitism. Only. Is there risk that

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<v Speaker 1>Labor will fold on that approach to these laws in

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<v Speaker 1>the same way they folded to the demands for a

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<v Speaker 1>Royal commission.

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely.

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<v Speaker 3>I think one of the hallmarks of Anthony Alberanizi's Prime

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<v Speaker 3>ministership has been a leader that is really just leaning

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<v Speaker 3>into what the conversation that's dominating the media of the

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<v Speaker 3>time dictates that.

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<v Speaker 2>He should do.

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<v Speaker 3>Even with this announcement of a royal commissioner, he announced

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<v Speaker 3>a federal review into our intelligence agencies and then backflips

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<v Speaker 3>despite consistently saying we were not going to hold a

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<v Speaker 3>royal commission. So I think the worry here is that

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<v Speaker 3>he is vowing to pressures, actually stitching to his values,

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<v Speaker 3>despite having such a strong majority in Parliament.

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<v Speaker 1>So are these laws doomed to fail given where we're

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<v Speaker 1>at at the moment?

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<v Speaker 2>Absolutely?

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<v Speaker 3>I think to rush through such complex legislation makes such

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<v Speaker 3>significant changes not only to hate speech legislation, but also

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<v Speaker 3>to gun reform, to migration. There are so many different

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<v Speaker 3>moving parts of this bill that arguably could be unconstitutional,

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<v Speaker 3>but lawyers experts haven't been given the time for peruse

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<v Speaker 3>and provide submissions to the still despite it being such

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<v Speaker 3>a complex piece of legislation. So I think right now

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<v Speaker 3>they are doomed to fail because they do not have

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<v Speaker 3>party support outside of Labor, and they haven't consulted the

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<v Speaker 3>necessary stakeholders.

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<v Speaker 2>To actually ensure success and the goal of the bill is.

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<v Speaker 3>Really social cohesion and to reduce extremism and reduce division,

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<v Speaker 3>and continues on this path, it's going to be the exact.

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<v Speaker 1>Opposite coming at from Bondai to Adelaide and the problem

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<v Speaker 1>of weaponizing cultural sensitivity. And if we brought in things

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<v Speaker 1>out a little bit and talk about the climate in

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<v Speaker 1>which this legislation is being introduced into. You were set

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<v Speaker 1>to appear at Adelaide Writers Week. How did you first

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<v Speaker 1>hear that Randa Abdolphatar was uninvited?

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, so last Thursday, I was actually still on break

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<v Speaker 3>overseas traveling and I received an email from the Adelaide

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<v Speaker 3>Festival Board with an attached statement informing all participants that

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<v Speaker 3>doctor Randa Abdolphatar had been removed uninvited from the festival. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>I quickly went online did some searchers, expecting to find

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<v Speaker 3>some clear information as to why had she been uninvited,

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<v Speaker 3>what were recent comments made? There was no actual quotes

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<v Speaker 3>in the statement, there was no specific references to comments

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<v Speaker 3>that were made, and there was this really odd conflation

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<v Speaker 3>that I read between doctor Abdolfhatar, her voice as a

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<v Speaker 3>Palestinian author, and the Bondi terror attack. While denying there

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<v Speaker 3>was connection now and the whole statement felt very funny

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<v Speaker 3>to me. So after receiving that email from the Adelaide

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<v Speaker 3>Festival Board and kind of reviewing the material of having

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<v Speaker 3>a look online, I decided that the only option for

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<v Speaker 3>me was to pull out of the festival, given that

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<v Speaker 3>I didn't understand the context and that I believe this

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<v Speaker 3>to be a racist act of censorship. So I immediately

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<v Speaker 3>emailed the board, raised my concerns and pulled out of

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<v Speaker 3>the two sessions I was set to participate in next month, and.

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<v Speaker 1>You weren't alone in pulling out. What did you make

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<v Speaker 1>of the mass boycott?

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<v Speaker 2>I actually thought it was an amazing moment.

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<v Speaker 3>I think that over the last two years there's been

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<v Speaker 3>a real divide in our responses to you know, what

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<v Speaker 3>I would describe as Israel filmside against Palestinians. I think

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<v Speaker 3>to see the silencing, the suppression of a Palestinian author

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<v Speaker 3>by a festival board was concerning. And to see the

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<v Speaker 3>Australian you know, writing an arts community quite broadly showed

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<v Speaker 3>support for doctor Abdulfatawa was a beautiful thing because it

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<v Speaker 3>was an act of solidarity and an act of protest

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<v Speaker 3>in one.

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<v Speaker 1>The death Australian Premiere backed the board's decision and took

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<v Speaker 1>it even further, comparing around as a heerence to booking

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<v Speaker 1>a far right Zionist in the aftermath of a Zionist

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<v Speaker 1>killing Muslims.

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<v Speaker 7>Can you imagine that as Premier of this state, I

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<v Speaker 7>would actively support a far right Zionist going to Writers

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<v Speaker 7>Week and speaking hateful rhetoric towards other people?

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<v Speaker 2>Of course I wouldn't.

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<v Speaker 7>The reverse has happened in this instance, and I'm not

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<v Speaker 7>going to support that either.

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<v Speaker 1>Randa is now laun's defamation proceeds because of this extraordinary

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<v Speaker 1>attack on her character. What does it say to you, Hannah,

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<v Speaker 1>that we have a political leader ultimately in charge of

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<v Speaker 1>the event's budget making a comment like that.

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<v Speaker 3>It is hard for me not to see it as

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<v Speaker 3>the continued, you know, lobbying pressure placed on Australian institutions.

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<v Speaker 3>And it is really hard for me to see this

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<v Speaker 3>as anything other than an act of censorship and racism.

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<v Speaker 3>And I think the Premier, you know, I'm seeing a

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<v Speaker 3>lot of the murder comedia cover this by only quoting

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<v Speaker 3>the South Australian Premier's references to its like platforming a

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<v Speaker 3>far right Zionist at the festival without actually acknowledging that

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<v Speaker 3>the real concern and imputation here is that doctor Randa

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<v Speaker 3>Abdolphattal might have held the same views as those who

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<v Speaker 3>committed the Bona terror attack, which just isn't the case

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<v Speaker 3>and actually is so blatantly offensive and disturbing for a

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<v Speaker 3>premiere to be making. And so I think we actually

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<v Speaker 3>need to sit with the fact that we have the

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<v Speaker 3>highest official in South Australian making these comments at a

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<v Speaker 3>press conference, you know, quite Willie Nillick, and that that

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<v Speaker 3>is deeply irresponsible and that she deserves an apology.

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<v Speaker 1>You've touched on a little bit, Hannah, But what are

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<v Speaker 1>the powers that play here? Why do we keep seeing

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<v Speaker 1>this type of thing happening in our cultural institutions?

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<v Speaker 3>I mean, over the last two years in particular, we

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<v Speaker 3>have seen, you know, from my perspective, over and over again,

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<v Speaker 3>the Zionist lobbies at play here launching coordinated campaigns against

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<v Speaker 3>particular voices in our media and political landscapes, and politicians

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<v Speaker 3>are folding to the pressures.

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<v Speaker 2>And so I think consistently that has been the recurring

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<v Speaker 2>theme that needs to be named.

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<v Speaker 1>How do you think this whole cyber will shape next

0:11:59.840 --> 0:12:03.520
<v Speaker 1>year festival and the programming decisions at other arts festivals.

0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:05.080
<v Speaker 1>Could it have a chilling effect?

0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:07.880
<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I think that that is the biggest risk we're

0:12:07.880 --> 0:12:10.559
<v Speaker 3>facing is that instead of you know, having arts festivals

0:12:10.760 --> 0:12:13.880
<v Speaker 3>see this result and say we need to actually diversify

0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:17.640
<v Speaker 3>our offerings, diversify our panels, diversify and experiences we're offering

0:12:17.640 --> 0:12:20.319
<v Speaker 3>to audiences who have a passion thirst for.

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:22.440
<v Speaker 2>Hearing from different voices.

0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:26.080
<v Speaker 3>We will lifely see some festivals take the approach of

0:12:26.200 --> 0:12:30.000
<v Speaker 3>not inviting diverse voices and diverse authors to speak and

0:12:30.040 --> 0:12:33.360
<v Speaker 3>platform in Palestinian voices in particular. And the worry from

0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.079
<v Speaker 3>my perspective is that instead will continue to see many

0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:40.120
<v Speaker 3>of the kind of white, centrist, safe, polite conversations that

0:12:40.160 --> 0:12:43.000
<v Speaker 3>have dominated at the Australian media landscape for decades.

0:12:43.480 --> 0:12:44.240
<v Speaker 2>But I also think.

0:12:44.080 --> 0:12:46.760
<v Speaker 3>When we're talking about the idea of a chilling effect,

0:12:46.800 --> 0:12:48.920
<v Speaker 3>what's interesting is that we always kind of have this

0:12:49.040 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 3>perspective that that effect will take place on the festival,

0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.640
<v Speaker 3>that it will send to a white voices, that it

0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.920
<v Speaker 3>will actually remove diversity from these arenas.

0:12:57.200 --> 0:12:59.439
<v Speaker 2>What we never really ask is why this doesn't have

0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:01.640
<v Speaker 2>a chilling of effect on the diversity of the board

0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:05.000
<v Speaker 2>that now has to be rehired. Who programs the festival?

0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:07.920
<v Speaker 3>Will alwais ADLB invited that to be the director in

0:13:07.960 --> 0:13:08.960
<v Speaker 3>twenty twenty seven and.

0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:10.200
<v Speaker 2>Will she take that position.

0:13:10.960 --> 0:13:14.040
<v Speaker 3>I hope that one of the outcomes from this cancelation

0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:17.840
<v Speaker 3>and kind of horrific week of unfolding news is that

0:13:18.160 --> 0:13:22.240
<v Speaker 3>boards moving forward reconsider how they meant decisions, who is

0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:25.200
<v Speaker 3>placed on them, and how they approach these contentious and

0:13:25.200 --> 0:13:26.160
<v Speaker 3>conflicting issues.

0:13:26.960 --> 0:13:29.800
<v Speaker 1>And what does it say about our ability to have

0:13:29.840 --> 0:13:32.400
<v Speaker 1>a mature conversation As we're about to embark on a

0:13:32.480 --> 0:13:36.160
<v Speaker 1>royal commission that is potentially going to be very divisive.

0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.920
<v Speaker 1>What does the events of that, like writers Waken, the

0:13:38.920 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 1>events before that in other cultural settings say about our

0:13:41.800 --> 0:13:43.400
<v Speaker 1>ability to have these conversations?

0:13:44.520 --> 0:13:45.480
<v Speaker 2>You know what, I.

0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.120
<v Speaker 3>Think that I have been someone who in the past,

0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:50.760
<v Speaker 3>you know, for the years I've been kind of entering

0:13:50.760 --> 0:13:54.120
<v Speaker 3>this new media landscape, I have been very negative about

0:13:54.160 --> 0:13:57.680
<v Speaker 3>the media and politics, and you know, looking forward trying

0:13:57.679 --> 0:14:00.839
<v Speaker 3>to remain optimistic, it is quite difficult, I actually think,

0:14:00.960 --> 0:14:02.880
<v Speaker 3>you know, and I'm sure doctor Admiral Fatal might have

0:14:02.960 --> 0:14:04.800
<v Speaker 3>very different views to me, having been on the receiving

0:14:04.880 --> 0:14:07.920
<v Speaker 3>end of such harm by the media as well. I

0:14:07.960 --> 0:14:10.560
<v Speaker 3>think the solidarity and the acts of protest from so

0:14:10.679 --> 0:14:12.920
<v Speaker 3>many writers who work for Mastheads and It's would have

0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:15.320
<v Speaker 3>been a significant risk to them to boycott or pull

0:14:15.400 --> 0:14:17.520
<v Speaker 3>out from the event. I think there is an actual

0:14:17.760 --> 0:14:21.120
<v Speaker 3>positive here that so many people stood together and made

0:14:21.120 --> 0:14:23.440
<v Speaker 3>clear statements that it wasn't acceptable, and I think that

0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:26.479
<v Speaker 3>is a beautiful thing from many parts of the media.

0:14:26.560 --> 0:14:28.320
<v Speaker 3>But I also think it speaks to the fact that

0:14:28.360 --> 0:14:31.120
<v Speaker 3>so much of the political and media landscape right now

0:14:31.160 --> 0:14:34.360
<v Speaker 3>is leaning into the inflammatory and running unfair headlines that

0:14:34.400 --> 0:14:38.520
<v Speaker 3>take out of context particular authors, views and language, and

0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.880
<v Speaker 3>that we are living in dangerous times where social media

0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:45.520
<v Speaker 3>makes inflammatory headlines and clickable moments the dominant narrative rather

0:14:45.560 --> 0:14:48.880
<v Speaker 3>than actual, nuanced conversations that focus on productivity and how

0:14:48.880 --> 0:14:49.800
<v Speaker 3>we move forward together.

0:14:51.080 --> 0:14:53.400
<v Speaker 1>Hanna, thank you so much for coming on seven Am.

0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:54.960
<v Speaker 2>Thank you so much for having me.

0:15:10.440 --> 0:15:13.880
<v Speaker 1>Seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media. He's

0:15:13.920 --> 0:15:19.000
<v Speaker 1>made by Atticus Bastow, Ariel Richards, Chris Dangate, Daniel James,

0:15:19.320 --> 0:15:25.240
<v Speaker 1>Crystal Keller, Nicole Johnston, Sarah mcvee, Travis Evans and Zaltenfio,

0:15:26.240 --> 0:15:28.600
<v Speaker 1>Ruby Jones is on Sir Comment and we'll be back

0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.440
<v Speaker 1>at the end of March. Our theme music is by

0:15:31.440 --> 0:15:35.120
<v Speaker 1>Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of En belowe Bordio. This

0:15:35.160 --> 0:15:37.680
<v Speaker 1>has been seven am. Thanks so much for listening.