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Speaker 1: Okay, welcome to the show. This is better than yesterday,

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Speaker 1: making it better since twenty thirteen. Every single week, every

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Speaker 1: single episode. My name is Oshi Ginsburg and it's Monday.

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Speaker 1: On Monday, we check out the highlight reel because you know,

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Speaker 1: I've been busy on the weekend with kids and family

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Speaker 1: and stuff. But I still want to see who played

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Speaker 1: who in the basketball. I watched the short version. I

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Speaker 1: don't have four hours. Just there it goes eighteen minutes.

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Speaker 1: Now good on New s Nickings. In episode five hundred

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Speaker 1: and seventeen, I spoke with the brilliant New Zealand author

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Speaker 1: and poet Jess Orrix. She's a mum of three. She

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Speaker 1: spoke to me from her home. The book that really

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Speaker 1: was a massive breakthrough for her was the book From

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Speaker 1: One Mum to Another. She's written another book called Beautiful Chaos,

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Speaker 1: which was equally spellbinding. Today she and I speak about

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Speaker 1: mum guilt, the effects of social media on expectations around

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Speaker 1: the experience of motherhood. She even opens up about overcoming

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Speaker 1: postpartum depression. Now, Jess is a mum to three, three kids,

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Speaker 1: so I want to say I know what she would

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Speaker 1: say to others about sharing with a woman who is

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Speaker 1: pregnant for the first time, what she'd say to them

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Speaker 1: about sharing with this woman their own birth story.

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Speaker 2: One thing that I sort of realized is that people

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Speaker 2: want to share their war stories. Yeah, possibly more than

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Speaker 2: they want to share the empowering ones. And I think

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Speaker 2: a lot of that could be And look, I don't know,

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Speaker 2: but I think sometimes people like birth can actually be

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Speaker 2: a really traumatic thing. It's also very beautiful, but what

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Speaker 2: you are going through, it's intense, and no one can

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Speaker 2: explain to you what you're about to embark on. And

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Speaker 2: so I think the overwhelming factor is what I felt

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Speaker 2: the most, is that someone's trying to tell you something

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Speaker 2: and you can't relate it to anything, and it's just

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Speaker 2: really scary. And it's not to say not to say anything.

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Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that I would

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Speaker 2: have appreciated a little bit more was the whole just

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Speaker 2: trusting in myself and leaning into my own power, possibly

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Speaker 2: advocating for myself a little bit more, because you do

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Speaker 2: go in there and think, well, I'm not a mother yet,

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Speaker 2: I've got absolutely no idea, but somehow you kind of do.

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Speaker 2: You sort of like in hindsight, when I look back

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Speaker 2: after my first, and that's changed with my second and

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Speaker 2: hugely with my third.

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Speaker 3: I definitely had a stronger voice then, but with my first.

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Speaker 2: When I look back, I think, actually there were moments

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Speaker 2: that I kind of wish I had said something to

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Speaker 2: the midwife for being a bit more honest about how

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Speaker 2: I was feeling, But I didn't because I kind of

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Speaker 2: had that mentality like I don't want.

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Speaker 3: To bother anybody.

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Speaker 2: I don't want to you know, So I don't know,

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Speaker 2: I think just leaning into yourself and I don't know,

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Speaker 2: believing in your power.

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Speaker 1: I wonder how anyone could you go through that without

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Speaker 1: like how are you supposed to know?

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Speaker 2: You know?

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Speaker 1: Yes, there was a cultural tradition of people sharing along

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Speaker 1: the way, but along the way that also became well

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Speaker 1: we don't talk about those business you know, we don't

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Speaker 1: want to talk about peri paridiums. Yeah, yeah, and so

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Speaker 1: it became this thing we can't speak about it. So

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Speaker 1: of course you in this place where look, I don't

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Speaker 1: feel what I'm allowed to. That can't be good.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I know, No, it's so important.

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Speaker 2: I mean, Drew, my husband, he has been so involved

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Speaker 2: the whole way through, which is exactly how it should be,

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Speaker 2: because this is a two way street. You know, we

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Speaker 2: both share the parenting equally. I do feel like, I mean,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. We can talk about this later. Like

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Speaker 2: the mental load, I still feel sits in my head

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Speaker 2: more than it does with him. But he's the chiller,

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Speaker 2: I'm the warrior, and we kind of meet in the

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Speaker 2: middle there, which.

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Speaker 3: Is a really good balance.

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Speaker 2: But no, he's been he's always been really interested to know.

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Speaker 2: You know, he came to every intenatal class. He always

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Speaker 2: had questions and that put my mind at ease so much,

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Speaker 2: And honestly, there is That's how it should be.

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Speaker 1: Back to those you know, kind of the war stories

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Speaker 1: that you spoke about, what you had in your head

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Speaker 1: about what those sensations might mean because of the stories

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Speaker 1: you told in your first labor compared to what those

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Speaker 1: sensations might mean when you know you're your third child.

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Speaker 1: What was the difference there.

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Speaker 3: It's funny.

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Speaker 2: The first two times it was actually very similar, so

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Speaker 2: that both happened overnight, and it just started off as

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Speaker 2: just this feeling of being really uncomfortable, like almost like

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Speaker 2: pre menstrual pains, I guess, but they you start to

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Speaker 2: notice a bit of a pattern, and I was just

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Speaker 2: mindful that I needed to get some sleep, which is

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Speaker 2: easier said than done. And just as it progressed, it

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Speaker 2: just I guess it for me, it got really painful,

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Speaker 2: really really quickly, and that's when I knew that I

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Speaker 2: needed to call the midwife.

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Speaker 3: And then I guess by the time I got to

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Speaker 3: hospital both times.

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Speaker 2: That's when it was just completely ramped up and I

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Speaker 2: had to get inside my head to deal with the pain.

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Speaker 2: And I found that, to be honest, really hard because

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Speaker 2: I'd gone into it with so much anxiety and I

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Speaker 2: had heard these war stories. I felt like I couldn't. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I couldn't stay inside my head. Drew was amazing. I

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Speaker 2: had my mum there for the first two persons. She

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Speaker 2: was amazing as well. I couldn't speak. I couldn't I

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Speaker 2: just literally you had to just go to this place

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Speaker 2: of just complete silence just to deal with the pain,

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Speaker 2: because as soon as it was over, obviously, as your

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Speaker 2: contractions get quicker, you're straight into the next one and

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Speaker 2: it really does feel like you can't do this. You

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Speaker 2: do go through that moment where you think, I actually

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Speaker 2: can't do this, this is horrific, but you do and

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Speaker 2: you get through. But It's very hard to describe that

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Speaker 2: pain because it's not just like physically what you're going through.

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Speaker 3: It's so in your head and it is encompassing and consuming.

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Speaker 2: And then you have this baby, and it's crazy because,

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Speaker 2: like I know, not everybody feels their instant bond.

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Speaker 3: I totally understand that.

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Speaker 2: But the relief that you feel mixed with love and

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Speaker 2: with trauma and with what the just happened, it is surreal,

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Speaker 2: so surreal.

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Speaker 1: Jess has been very honest about having quite a horrible

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Speaker 1: breastfeeding journey to be frank with her first child, and

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Speaker 1: it continued to cause problems when her second child was

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Speaker 1: on the way, because she found herself thinking more and

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Speaker 1: more about trying breastfeed again and not about the actual birth.

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Speaker 1: So I wanted to find out from her, you know,

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Speaker 1: what was the role of expectations that she had that

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Speaker 1: was shaped largely by what she was exposed to through

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Speaker 1: social media, How those expectations affect what she was feeling inside.

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Speaker 2: It played such a huge part. I think, just like

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Speaker 2: the company that you keep in life, you should also

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Speaker 2: be really mindful of the company you keep on social media.

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Speaker 3: So as soon as I found out I.

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Speaker 2: Was pregnant, I was like, right, I need to follow

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Speaker 2: heaps of mummy bloggers because you know, I can look

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Speaker 2: up to them and they're going to tell me what

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Speaker 2: to do.

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Speaker 3: I don't think.

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Speaker 2: I mean, this is not for all of them, of course,

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Speaker 2: but I just remember coming off my phone going, oh God, like,

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Speaker 2: how am I?

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Speaker 3: How am I going to cope? I need this? I

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Speaker 3: need that, I need this.

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Speaker 1: And also the doing I do not realize we need

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Speaker 1: animal stencils. I'm cutting them out.

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Speaker 3: Of crepe paper right now.

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Speaker 1: I'm mark we need this.

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Speaker 2: Oh look mate, just like even just what parents show

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Speaker 2: that they do for their kids for Easter, Like I thought,

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Speaker 2: you just chucked a few exit them, and now it's

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Speaker 2: like you do these big hampers and you go and

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Speaker 2: get photo shoots and like that's really great. You can

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Speaker 2: do all that, but what you know, Yeah, like you said, subconsciously,

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Speaker 2: you're scrolling through your feet and.

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Speaker 3: You're seeing perfect esthetic nurseries.

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Speaker 2: You know, hospital bags that are just like perfectly labeled,

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Speaker 2: and I like, literally, by my third I just chucked

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Speaker 2: a whole bunch of stuff in a few days before

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Speaker 2: the Joe date hardly got anything for her. I mean

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Speaker 2: we had a lot of hand me downs, but I

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Speaker 2: knew all the stuff I didn't need. The pressure would

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Speaker 2: have been so off if I hadn't immersed myself and

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Speaker 2: that before having my first for sure.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So if you were to say, so, so there's

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Speaker 1: somebody who's pregnant listening right now, what would you say

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Speaker 1: to them about what images and what kind of you're

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Speaker 1: creating and what subconsciously you're setting up as an expectation

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Speaker 1: and you're fine.

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Speaker 2: The first thing I would probably say is that your

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Speaker 2: baby doesn't give a shit about its nursery and it's

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Speaker 2: probably going to be in your room for the first

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Speaker 2: few months. We still can't get our five year old

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Speaker 2: out of our room, so there's that. I think as well,

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Speaker 2: if you come away from social media or some of

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Speaker 2: these accounts and you don't feel good, we'll listen to that.

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Speaker 3: Don't follow them then.

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Speaker 2: And then thirdly, I would say that social media it's

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Speaker 2: the highlight of everybody's lives. Not everyone's willing to show

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Speaker 2: you the messy parts. You've got this little square and

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Speaker 2: it's very easy to sweep the missy out of the frame,

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Speaker 2: so just be mindful of that as well.

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Speaker 1: There's pooh, there's blood, there's screaming.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, there's a lot going on.

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Speaker 1: We never see that stuff, but that's all a part

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Speaker 1: of it, and it's okay. There's always been a part

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Speaker 1: of it.

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Speaker 3: It has exactly.

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Speaker 2: I think it's just important to speak with people that

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Speaker 2: make you feel good, make you feel empowered. There's enough

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Speaker 2: pressure anyway, So yeah, I don't know. Social media can

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Speaker 2: be great for those connections, but I just think you

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Speaker 2: have to be mindful of who those connections are.

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Speaker 1: You mentioned not being able to get your fire year

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Speaker 1: old out of the bed, and parallel was one of

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Speaker 1: I guess you're one of your most well known poems,

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Speaker 1: which basically as an I won't spoil it because if

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Speaker 1: people will want to experience it the first time, I

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Speaker 1: won't do it the disservice of dry to olate it

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Speaker 1: for myself. But it is this idea of yeah, it's

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Speaker 1: all heaps happening right now and no one can sleep

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Speaker 1: and I'm getting literally kicked in the spleen all night long,

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Speaker 1: and one day I won't be there exactly. Yeah, what's

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Speaker 1: wonderful about a first kiss is because it only happens once,

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Speaker 1: you'll only get and delaying a first kiss with a

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Speaker 1: romantic partner you only get to have the time before

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Speaker 1: you've ever kissed them one time, and you only get

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Speaker 1: to kiss them the first time once and never ever

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Speaker 1: ever happens again. It's literally that because there's all your

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Speaker 1: emotion and I love you and I care about you

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Speaker 1: and I really want to show you this. It's that

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Speaker 1: twenty times a day, and then it's not.

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Speaker 2: Exactly yeah, and you don't know when the last time

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Speaker 2: is going to be. There's never a warning. It just happens.

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Speaker 2: And then you look back later and you go, oh,

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Speaker 2: when was the last time I actually picked them up

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Speaker 2: or they said that word in that way?

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Speaker 3: You don't know.

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Speaker 1: We do need to play some ads were back with

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Speaker 1: jess in just a moment. Jess or Rix opened up

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Speaker 1: about working through postpartum depression as well as anxiety. On

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Speaker 1: our full conversation, she did it great now, but I

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Speaker 1: wanted to know because people ask me, and I'm find

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Speaker 1: it interesting to ask others the same question when she

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Speaker 1: was in the middle of it, you know, four years ago,

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Speaker 1: when she was in the depth of it, being consumed

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Speaker 1: by it, being surrounded by it. If she would ever

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Speaker 1: believe that in just a few short years, four short years,

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Speaker 1: the only way she'll be able to recognize this feeling

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Speaker 1: that she's battling through is through poetry that she was

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Speaker 1: writing at the time, and that will be the only

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Speaker 1: way she could relate to it.

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Speaker 2: I know that if someone had told me those words

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Speaker 2: or future me, it definitely would have given me hope

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Speaker 2: and it would have helped. But it's definitely it's such

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Speaker 2: an individual journey that that hope is what you need

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Speaker 2: to fuel you and put those feet in front of

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Speaker 2: the other.

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Speaker 3: But I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I think you discover these things yourself because you meant too.

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Speaker 2: And it is such a proud moment looking back and going, wow,

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Speaker 2: that was really hard, but I survived that, and I

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Speaker 2: did that.

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Speaker 1: I look back now. I was with my psychiatrist yesterday

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Speaker 1: actually and just kind of refle I've known him for

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Speaker 1: ten years and just reflecting on what it was like

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Speaker 1: when we first met. It's like, I don't know who

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Speaker 1: that guy is. I remember how terrifying it was and

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Speaker 1: how permanent and awful things were, but just being unable

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Speaker 1: to believe him for a long time that it could

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Speaker 1: ever be different. But I had to because otherwise I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't have tried.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think as well you know, like we

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Speaker 2: talk about that light at the end of the tunnel.

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Speaker 2: One thing I think about now when I look back,

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Speaker 2: as the cracks of light coming through the tunnel the

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Speaker 2: whole time. But at the time I couldn't see that.

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Speaker 2: I couldn't even see the light. Like you said, it

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Speaker 2: felt like a stay of permanence, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my god, I'm never what you know? This is

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Speaker 2: my life now. I mean, there was even a moment

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Speaker 2: where I thought, what have we done? Which sounds horrible

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Speaker 2: to say. I don't feel that way. I don't even

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Speaker 2: think I felt that way when I said it, but

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Speaker 2: it felt very real for me at the time because

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Speaker 2: I was just an empty shell of a person. But yeah,

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Speaker 2: like I mean, gosh, life is good. And I mean

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Speaker 2: it's hard and it's hectic and it's beautiful chaos and

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Speaker 2: all of that, but it's good. And yeah, I look

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Speaker 2: back now and I'm like, wow, you know, it just

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Speaker 2: really isn't permanent.

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Speaker 3: Even if it feels like it is, it isn't.

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Speaker 1: It is as fleeting as the kid who doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to go down even the smallest slide at the park

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Speaker 1: and then ten minutes later has figured out that they

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Speaker 1: can do it safely and they'll never be afraid of

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Speaker 1: the slide again. Oh yeah, different children.

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Speaker 2: It's as fleeting as a kid who loves bananas one

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Speaker 2: day and hates them.

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Speaker 1: So let's tell a bit this time.

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Speaker 2: Man.

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Speaker 1: Now, I'm sure people have this kind of idealized version

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Speaker 1: of who you are. They do the linen caftan felt

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Speaker 1: hat version of you, going. Oh, I bet Jess Earlish

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Speaker 1: doesn't have, you know, to deal with the kids around broccoli.

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Speaker 1: I've got her. You know, she's writing seventeen stanzas about

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Speaker 1: how amazing her kid is right now. But you, you little bastard,

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Speaker 1: you know, tell me about the tell me about the

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Speaker 1: food flying at dinner time.

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Speaker 2: Oh it's madness. We all try and sit down together

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Speaker 2: and eat together. We have a very blend dinner most

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Speaker 2: nights because of that. But I think, like on social media,

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Speaker 2: I show up in a pretty real, authentic way there.

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Speaker 2: I'd be very surprised if anybody thought I was writing

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Speaker 2: stanzas at dinner time all my kids were perfect, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'd be like, you mustn't have followed me for long.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's people listening who you know. This may

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Speaker 1: be the first time that they are become or wherever.

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Speaker 1: You'll probably go and find your poetry and go and

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Speaker 1: look at your stuff online after this conversation. But it

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Speaker 1: you know, I just, I guess wanted to explore that

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Speaker 1: I no, no, no, You'll not different to anybody else.

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Speaker 1: We all have that.

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Speaker 2: Oh absolutely, you know we've got if you look in

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Speaker 2: our hallway, in that beautiful golden hour all you can

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Speaker 2: see early handprints all over the hallway. And we're not

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Speaker 2: going to do anything about that because I'd had to

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Speaker 2: paint that to get rid of those, so that's permanent and.

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Speaker 1: Their hands will only be that little.

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Speaker 3: What's that.

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Speaker 1: We're about to put a concrete slab in the backyard,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, I get to put Wolfe's

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Speaker 1: handprint in there, and then, you know, I'm excited about

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Speaker 1: that because like it won't be long before I was

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Speaker 1: like five times the size. It sounds like your mum

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Speaker 1: was extraordinarily supportive of when things weren't going great. What

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Speaker 1: would you say to parents of kids who are you know,

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Speaker 1: maybe in them mid twenties or late twenties having kids now,

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Speaker 1: who maybe had a different outlook on when brains don't

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Speaker 1: work that great. Because there's people who listen to the

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Speaker 1: show who are in their kind of mid fifties sometimes sixties,

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Speaker 1: what would you say to them about supporting their daughters

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Speaker 1: and sons who are going through this sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: One thing that's been really amazing that mum has done

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Speaker 2: is she has taken on board a lot of my

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Speaker 2: learnings from I guess modern day parenting. So while I

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Speaker 2: leaned on her for so much of her experience because

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Speaker 2: that has been invaluable to me, there's also been a

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Speaker 2: lot of things that, you know, things have changed and

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Speaker 2: we do we're careful with the way that we phrase

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Speaker 2: things now. Not that my mum has ever been the

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Speaker 2: type just turn around and say big boys don't cry.

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Speaker 2: That's an example there. But you know, she's been really

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Speaker 2: really good at there, whereas I know that there are

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Speaker 2: some parents out there that kind of go, oh, well,

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Speaker 2: you know we did this with you when you turned

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Speaker 2: out fine, just let your baby cry from seven till

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Speaker 2: seven and holding that space and letting your child find

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Speaker 2: their own path and motherhooders, it's really amazing. It gives

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Speaker 2: them that empowerment, It builds up their voice to be stronger.

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Speaker 2: Oh and just do the dishes sometimes, please, just do

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Speaker 2: sometimes just come around and do the dishes.

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Speaker 3: That's so helpful.

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Speaker 1: Jessel Rix is an absolute legend. My full conversation with

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Speaker 1: her as episode five hundred and seventeen, we do cover

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Speaker 1: so much more, including the highs and the loads of motherhood,

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Speaker 1: the incredible work that she does, what it was like

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Speaker 1: the first time she asked for help, and how she

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Speaker 1: feels around being vulnerable and sharing her struggles with others. Now,

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Speaker 1: I hope you enjoyed the show. If you've enjoyed this episode,

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Speaker 1: I hope you share it with somebody. Thank you so

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Speaker 1: much to everyone to help me make the show. Abbi

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Speaker 1: Beto as a producer of this episode. Andy Maher who

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Speaker 1: was the audio post producer, BEXAA did video post. Monica Chapman,

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Speaker 1: who's my executive function assistance. She makes the day run.

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Speaker 1: Without those people, I've got no show. Thank you. Jump

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Speaker 1: on the substack if you want to stay in touch

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Speaker 1: the leaks in the show notes. We'll see you Monday,