WEBVTT - Inside Putin’s classroom propaganda push

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM. This year,

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<v Speaker 1>a documentary filmed at a school in Russia won an

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<v Speaker 1>Academy Award. It's hero a primary school teacher Pasha Talanken.

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<v Speaker 1>After Russia invaded Ukraine, mister Talancan found himself trapped in

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<v Speaker 1>the job of teaching propaganda to students. He filmed it

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<v Speaker 1>all until he was forced to flee the country, and

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<v Speaker 1>what he captured offers a rare glimpse into Putin's Russia Today.

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<v Speaker 1>Andre Soldatov, a Russian investigative journalist who also fled the country,

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<v Speaker 1>on how the Kremlin is indoctrinating kids. It's Wednesday, April

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<v Speaker 1>twenty two. Andre. First of all, the film that we

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<v Speaker 1>just mentioned, Mister Nobody against Putin, it was a rare

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<v Speaker 1>look into what's really going on inside Russia. So how

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<v Speaker 1>is the Kremlin's propaganda now part of the school curriculum

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<v Speaker 1>for kids?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, unfortunately, it started event before the war Commonstone twenty two.

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<v Speaker 2>We got the Russian military present and getting more and

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<v Speaker 2>more active in Russian schools, and the Russian Army formed

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<v Speaker 2>several special organizations to talk to kids, and for several

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<v Speaker 2>years we've seen kids in uniforms are praising the Russian military.

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<v Speaker 3>Yeah, I feel proud. We have to march to follow

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<v Speaker 3>in our grandfather's footsteps. They fought for our homeland. If

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<v Speaker 3>it comes to that, we'll fight for it too. Of course,

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<v Speaker 3>it's closely tied.

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<v Speaker 2>We have the history of the Russian war against the

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<v Speaker 2>Nazis during the Second World War. So it's a huge

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<v Speaker 2>thing because this is essentially as a Russian ayrgy of

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<v Speaker 2>these days, it's not only about lessons. So they have

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<v Speaker 2>the lessons they call it the lessons about the important things,

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<v Speaker 2>but also they have visits of the veterans. And while

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<v Speaker 2>back in the day they invited veterans of the Second

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<v Speaker 2>World War, but these days they invite the veterans of

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<v Speaker 2>the what they call the Special military Operation in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 4>Community telegramar we threw grenades and fired dummy shots.

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<v Speaker 3>People who are fresh from the bottlefield.

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<v Speaker 2>They are taught to come to schools and to talk

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<v Speaker 2>to kids, sometimes to teach them how to use weapons.

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<v Speaker 3>And of course it is an inductrination.

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<v Speaker 1>And I was reading they even have a grade for

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<v Speaker 1>ideological conformity these days.

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<v Speaker 3>Yes, exactly.

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<v Speaker 2>And the problem is that as the Kremlin understands very

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<v Speaker 2>clearly that there are no other real ideology in Russia

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<v Speaker 2>these days. Nobody obviously believe in communism, and that's long gone.

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<v Speaker 2>Where it's not official ideology, it's prohibited by the Russian constitution.

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<v Speaker 2>So the place is taken by the idea of the

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<v Speaker 2>Russian military might that the Russian army has been always

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<v Speaker 2>on the good side of history, and now the Russian

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<v Speaker 2>army is fighting evolved in Ukraine.

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<v Speaker 1>So what impact is all of this having on the kids.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a bit more complicated than it seems,

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<v Speaker 2>because of course there are kids who might believe in

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<v Speaker 2>this propaganda.

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<v Speaker 3>It's obvious.

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<v Speaker 2>But in countries like Russia, where repressions are part of

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<v Speaker 2>an everyday life, we can say what people find in

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<v Speaker 2>these lessons is basically directions what you need to say

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<v Speaker 2>if you want to stay on the good side of

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<v Speaker 2>the Kremlin, what you can discuss and you cannot. So

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<v Speaker 2>it's mostly about directions. It's some sort of guidelines of

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<v Speaker 2>how you can behave and obviously for lots of people

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<v Speaker 2>who do not want to become troublemakers, they just accept

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<v Speaker 2>it and it became a second nature.

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<v Speaker 1>Andre the internet used to be one of the last

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<v Speaker 1>places left in Russia where you could try and get

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<v Speaker 1>around this state control using VPNs in Telegram. But since

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<v Speaker 1>the first of April, Telegram was totally blocked. The VPNs

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<v Speaker 1>are now being shut down gradually. So what is going

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<v Speaker 1>on in that space in Russia?

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<v Speaker 2>Unfortunately, right now there's offensive on the internet, and Internet

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<v Speaker 2>freedom seems to be unstoppable. It's not only bart an

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<v Speaker 2>attack on a particular service like Telegram you mentioned, it's

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<v Speaker 2>about an introduction of a completely new system.

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<v Speaker 5>Russia has unveiled what it's calling a super app that

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<v Speaker 5>combines messaging other functions. Max As, the app it's called

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<v Speaker 5>describes itself as a new digital platform for solving everyday problems.

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<v Speaker 5>It's owned by a Kremlin friendly oligarch I.

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<v Speaker 2>Would say, it's an ambitions to change social behavior. For instance,

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<v Speaker 2>instead of black lists, websites and services blocked by the

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<v Speaker 2>authorages because they are considered to be dangerous or harmful,

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<v Speaker 2>now we have the concept of the white lists, so

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<v Speaker 2>you can basically use or access only the services which

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<v Speaker 2>are approved by the authoragies. And it's very damaging, of course,

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<v Speaker 2>because we all understand that the white lists are by

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<v Speaker 2>definition a limited and source.

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<v Speaker 6>In Russia, digital controls are tightening. People can get fined

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<v Speaker 6>simply for a search query on the Internet for materials

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<v Speaker 6>branded as extremist by the Ministry of Justice.

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<v Speaker 2>It's also about constant problems with mobile internet, a big problem,

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<v Speaker 2>not only in regions as it was before, but now

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<v Speaker 2>in big cities like Moscow, Saint Peters Book and it

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<v Speaker 2>affects everyday life.

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<v Speaker 3>You cannot actually pay.

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<v Speaker 2>By your card, you cannot order a taxi, you cannot

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<v Speaker 2>use lots of things online, and of course it creates

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<v Speaker 2>a lot of revances. People are getting very, very frustrated,

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<v Speaker 2>but at the same time they understand that they are absolutely.

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<v Speaker 3>Defenseless.

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<v Speaker 1>So when it comes to the war in Ukraine, what

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<v Speaker 1>is it these days that Russians are being told about it?

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<v Speaker 1>And on a street level, are people even really following

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<v Speaker 1>what's happening there.

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<v Speaker 2>Well, it's an interesting thing because on the one hand,

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<v Speaker 2>I've got the ficial propaganda is very strong, and every

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<v Speaker 2>way you have some discussion about the war, and the

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<v Speaker 2>Kremlin is for instances promoting the idea that during the

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<v Speaker 2>next elections to the Russian Parliament Duma, veterans of the

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<v Speaker 2>war would be given an opportunity to actually to come

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<v Speaker 2>into the Russian Parliament, and it's being praised by Kremlin propagantists.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, we see that lots of people

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<v Speaker 2>do not want to think about the war because it's

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<v Speaker 2>so uncomfortable, because you feel, first of all that you

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<v Speaker 2>have not say in what your country is doing, not

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<v Speaker 2>only in Ukraine but also in your country. And the

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<v Speaker 2>best way it's some sort of psychological defense or production mechanism.

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<v Speaker 3>You just try not to think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>And the usual thing you counter when you talk to

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<v Speaker 2>someone who are now is in the country, Let's not

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it. It's too uncomfortable. I don't want to

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<v Speaker 2>talk about it. We don't think about it, so we

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<v Speaker 2>leave our lives day by day, and that's.

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<v Speaker 1>It coming up. How Putin is pain for frontline soldiers

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<v Speaker 1>Andre Your real specialty as a journalist is in Russia's

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<v Speaker 1>security and intelligence services. And in twenty twenty three we

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<v Speaker 1>had that failed mutiny attempt within the armed services led

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<v Speaker 1>by Yevgeny Progossian.

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<v Speaker 7>The uprising by the head of the Wagner Mercenary group

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<v Speaker 7>put the country on a knife edge, but with a

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<v Speaker 7>convoy of his fighters closing in on Moscow, Yevgeny progoes

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<v Speaker 7>in seemingly blinked.

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<v Speaker 1>But these days it does appear that Putin is totally

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<v Speaker 1>entrenched and the Palace coup would look or appear impossible

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<v Speaker 1>these days. Is that how you'd read it?

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<v Speaker 2>Also, well, it looks like putting Lord some lessons from

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<v Speaker 2>twenty to twenty three, and thus the fall are The

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<v Speaker 2>problem is that Russia has some people within the army

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<v Speaker 2>as a security services who are not extremely happy with

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<v Speaker 2>what is going on on the Bottlefeld. Most of these

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<v Speaker 2>people would want this war to become bigger, not smaller. Unfortunately,

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<v Speaker 2>but even these people now they do not have a

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<v Speaker 2>real platform to talk about their ideas.

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<v Speaker 4>Now.

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<v Speaker 8>One of Russia's best known human rights campaigners are like

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<v Speaker 8>all of has been jailed for two and a half

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<v Speaker 8>years by a quarter in Moscow. It's all of who

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<v Speaker 8>is seventy It was found guilty of repeatedly discrediting the

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<v Speaker 8>Russian Army.

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<v Speaker 2>Most of the people who there critical of the way

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<v Speaker 2>the war was conducted are either in jail or killed.

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<v Speaker 9>Vladimir Kara Murza was found guilty on alleged charges of

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<v Speaker 9>treason for criticizing the war in Ukraine. In what was

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<v Speaker 9>widely viewed as a show trial. The opposition activists has

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<v Speaker 9>spent years speaking out against the Russian president and even

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<v Speaker 9>survived two poisonings.

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<v Speaker 2>You cannot really come together and discuss what is going

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<v Speaker 2>on because everybody knows that the FSB made Russian Security

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<v Speaker 2>Service is omnipresent within the military, and not only within

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<v Speaker 2>the military, it's also got for the government, for the

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<v Speaker 2>ministries and federal agencies. Almost every way you see someone

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<v Speaker 2>being arrested and accused of something like deputy ministers, governors,

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<v Speaker 2>deputy governors. It's a huge thing, and what it creates,

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<v Speaker 2>it creates as a climate of fear and people distrust

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<v Speaker 2>each other.

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<v Speaker 3>The first basic thing.

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<v Speaker 2>If you want to uganize something like a kuduitai, you

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<v Speaker 2>need to have some trust. And this is exactly what

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<v Speaker 2>it's like in these days now.

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<v Speaker 1>Putin has always made it very clear that his ambition

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<v Speaker 1>is to restore the greatness of Russia. But with the

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<v Speaker 1>world focused on the Middle East, Trump in power, do

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<v Speaker 1>you think Putin actually thinks he's now getting what he

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<v Speaker 1>wanted Because NATO is divided, we have an expanded Russia.

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<v Speaker 1>He has a freer hand in Ukraine, higher oil prices

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<v Speaker 1>or is it more complicated.

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<v Speaker 2>I think it's a bit more complicated, because yes, on

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<v Speaker 2>the one hand, it looks like while we have the

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<v Speaker 2>US president attacking nature, this is exactly what Pudder would

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<v Speaker 2>love to hear, and of course we have all prices

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<v Speaker 2>and problems. It creates more opportunities for Russian oil companies,

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<v Speaker 2>and we already see that. We see how some really

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<v Speaker 2>big countries are getting back to talking to Russian companies

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<v Speaker 2>because we understand that they cannot get oil from, say,

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<v Speaker 2>from the Middle East. And it's all very beneficial for Russia.

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<v Speaker 4>But around a quarter of the world's oil supply comes

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<v Speaker 4>from Golf countries, much of that now impacted by the

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<v Speaker 4>Iran war, but almost twelve percent more comes from Russia.

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<v Speaker 4>To keep that flowing, the US has already lifted sanctions

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<v Speaker 4>on some Russian oil.

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<v Speaker 2>On the other hand, the Russian military is not extremely

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<v Speaker 2>happy because we'll look at it in perspective. If you

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<v Speaker 2>say that Putting already abandoned several of his allies, I

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<v Speaker 2>mean he did almost nothing to help the president of

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<v Speaker 2>Syria Bashar Assad, and now apparently Puting is doing nothing

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<v Speaker 2>or very little to protect his alle in the Iran

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<v Speaker 2>So yes, there are lots of people who think put

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<v Speaker 2>On could have done more to help Irun and it

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<v Speaker 2>is humilating, so good thing for pushing He could at

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<v Speaker 2>this for now disregard these people because he has such

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<v Speaker 2>a good system of repressions and andre.

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<v Speaker 1>What about the military, because this month there's a major

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<v Speaker 1>deployment of Russian soldiers to the front. There's been these

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<v Speaker 1>mobilizations going on for years to try and get Russians

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<v Speaker 1>to join the military. It's often referred to as a

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<v Speaker 1>meat grinder on the front line. So is it getting

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<v Speaker 1>harder and harder for the state to get new recruits

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<v Speaker 1>and why would people want to join?

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<v Speaker 2>Well, unfortunately, what this see that there are still some

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<v Speaker 2>people who want to join the army because of money,

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<v Speaker 2>and especially in poor regions. It's completely changed the picture

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<v Speaker 2>because it's not only about soldiers and being paid, it's

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<v Speaker 2>also about military contracts. Lots of Russian military facilities are

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<v Speaker 2>not in Moscow but in the regions, and now they're

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<v Speaker 2>getting money because of the war, so it's beneficial for

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<v Speaker 2>these people. On the other hand, in the army, if

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<v Speaker 2>you talk to people who are about fighting now, there

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<v Speaker 2>is this huge feeling of fatigue. People do not understand

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<v Speaker 2>why the progress is so slow. And also you have

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<v Speaker 2>this problem with the criminal propaganda, because the criminal made

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<v Speaker 2>such a huge effort trying to compare what is going

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<v Speaker 2>now with what took place in the Native forties during

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<v Speaker 2>the war with Germans. Well, of course you cannot help

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<v Speaker 2>but compare the successors of the Red Army back then

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<v Speaker 2>and the very small successor of the Russian Army now.

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<v Speaker 2>They have been fighting around one village for months and

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<v Speaker 2>months and months, and it is humiliating and it's also

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<v Speaker 2>betrays that actually you don't understand what you are fighting

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<v Speaker 2>for and how long you can find for this particular village.

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<v Speaker 1>Andre last month you were sentenced in absentia to four

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<v Speaker 1>years in a Russian penal colony for your reporting on

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<v Speaker 1>the war. Now, luckily you live in London and you're safe.

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<v Speaker 1>But I've read your book where you talk about your

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<v Speaker 1>old friends in Russia, some of them journalists. They're still

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<v Speaker 1>living there and they basically appear to have taken the

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<v Speaker 1>side of Putin. So why do you think that is?

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<v Speaker 1>Is it pure survival? And how hard is it for

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<v Speaker 1>you to reconcile that these people who were once your

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<v Speaker 1>close friends are now on the side of the Kremlin.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very difficult question, to be honest, because we've

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<v Speaker 2>used to be very close and at some point most

0:14:58.720 --> 0:15:02.240
<v Speaker 2>of them chose to side with the Kremlin. And I

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<v Speaker 2>would say, it's not only about fear and survival, it's

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<v Speaker 2>also about ambition. Most of these people are extremely ambitious

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<v Speaker 2>and they believe that in the country like Russia, you

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<v Speaker 2>can achieve something only if you serve the dictator.

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<v Speaker 3>And they chose that.

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<v Speaker 2>We also already see me and my coll of Arena

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<v Speaker 2>Borogan that Unfortunately, after the book was published, our friends

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<v Speaker 2>and of course we send a book to them because

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<v Speaker 2>we believed it would be fair, they got even more

0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:39.960
<v Speaker 2>aggressive and some of them actually cheered a sentence I

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<v Speaker 2>got and asking for more, maybe for our high treason charges.

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<v Speaker 2>So I don't see any space in your room for

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<v Speaker 2>reconciliation right now. It feels like a real civil war.

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<v Speaker 1>Andre It's been fascinating to speak with you.

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<v Speaker 2>Thank you, Thank you.

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<v Speaker 1>Also in the news, the Federal Court has been told

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<v Speaker 1>Woolworth's used subtle magic to mislead customers into thinking the

0:16:21.080 --> 0:16:24.440
<v Speaker 1>price of pantry staples had been slashed when it had not.

0:16:25.160 --> 0:16:27.960
<v Speaker 1>The a triple C's case against the grocery giant kicked

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<v Speaker 1>off yesterday. Like Coals, which faced court in February, wool

0:16:32.400 --> 0:16:36.680
<v Speaker 1>is accused of faking discounts by artificially increasing product prices,

0:16:37.160 --> 0:16:41.720
<v Speaker 1>then lowering them and advertising it under its Prices Dropped program.

0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:46.480
<v Speaker 1>Woolworth's refutes the claim, and police are investigating reports of

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<v Speaker 1>trespassing after fugitive gunmen Desi Freeman's final hideout was filmed

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<v Speaker 1>by YouTubers. Video has emerged from inside the shipping container

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<v Speaker 1>where Freeman made his last stand against police before he

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<v Speaker 1>was shot deadly last month. Freeman spent seven months on

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<v Speaker 1>the run after killing two police officers and wounding a

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<v Speaker 1>third in Victoria's High Country last year. I'm Nicole Johnston

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<v Speaker 1>and this is seven AM. Thanks for listening.