Speaker 1: I'm Nicole Johnston and you're listening to seven AM. This year,
Speaker 1: a documentary filmed at a school in Russia won an
Speaker 1: Academy Award. It's hero a primary school teacher Pasha Talanken.
Speaker 1: After Russia invaded Ukraine, mister Talancan found himself trapped in
Speaker 1: the job of teaching propaganda to students. He filmed it
Speaker 1: all until he was forced to flee the country, and
Speaker 1: what he captured offers a rare glimpse into Putin's Russia Today.
Speaker 1: Andre Soldatov, a Russian investigative journalist who also fled the country,
Speaker 1: on how the Kremlin is indoctrinating kids. It's Wednesday, April
Speaker 1: twenty two. Andre. First of all, the film that we
Speaker 1: just mentioned, Mister Nobody against Putin, it was a rare
Speaker 1: look into what's really going on inside Russia. So how
Speaker 1: is the Kremlin's propaganda now part of the school curriculum
Speaker 1: for kids?
Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, it started event before the war Commonstone twenty two.
Speaker 2: We got the Russian military present and getting more and
Speaker 2: more active in Russian schools, and the Russian Army formed
Speaker 2: several special organizations to talk to kids, and for several
Speaker 2: years we've seen kids in uniforms are praising the Russian military.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I feel proud. We have to march to follow
Speaker 3: in our grandfather's footsteps. They fought for our homeland. If
Speaker 3: it comes to that, we'll fight for it too. Of course,
Speaker 3: it's closely tied.
Speaker 2: We have the history of the Russian war against the
Speaker 2: Nazis during the Second World War. So it's a huge
Speaker 2: thing because this is essentially as a Russian ayrgy of
Speaker 2: these days, it's not only about lessons. So they have
Speaker 2: the lessons they call it the lessons about the important things,
Speaker 2: but also they have visits of the veterans. And while
Speaker 2: back in the day they invited veterans of the Second
Speaker 2: World War, but these days they invite the veterans of
Speaker 2: the what they call the Special military Operation in Ukraine.
Speaker 4: Community telegramar we threw grenades and fired dummy shots.
Speaker 3: People who are fresh from the bottlefield.
Speaker 2: They are taught to come to schools and to talk
Speaker 2: to kids, sometimes to teach them how to use weapons.
Speaker 3: And of course it is an inductrination.
Speaker 1: And I was reading they even have a grade for
Speaker 1: ideological conformity these days.
Speaker 3: Yes, exactly.
Speaker 2: And the problem is that as the Kremlin understands very
Speaker 2: clearly that there are no other real ideology in Russia
Speaker 2: these days. Nobody obviously believe in communism, and that's long gone.
Speaker 2: Where it's not official ideology, it's prohibited by the Russian constitution.
Speaker 2: So the place is taken by the idea of the
Speaker 2: Russian military might that the Russian army has been always
Speaker 2: on the good side of history, and now the Russian
Speaker 2: army is fighting evolved in Ukraine.
Speaker 1: So what impact is all of this having on the kids.
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit more complicated than it seems,
Speaker 2: because of course there are kids who might believe in
Speaker 2: this propaganda.
Speaker 3: It's obvious.
Speaker 2: But in countries like Russia, where repressions are part of
Speaker 2: an everyday life, we can say what people find in
Speaker 2: these lessons is basically directions what you need to say
Speaker 2: if you want to stay on the good side of
Speaker 2: the Kremlin, what you can discuss and you cannot. So
Speaker 2: it's mostly about directions. It's some sort of guidelines of
Speaker 2: how you can behave and obviously for lots of people
Speaker 2: who do not want to become troublemakers, they just accept
Speaker 2: it and it became a second nature.
Speaker 1: Andre the internet used to be one of the last
Speaker 1: places left in Russia where you could try and get
Speaker 1: around this state control using VPNs in Telegram. But since
Speaker 1: the first of April, Telegram was totally blocked. The VPNs
Speaker 1: are now being shut down gradually. So what is going
Speaker 1: on in that space in Russia?
Speaker 2: Unfortunately, right now there's offensive on the internet, and Internet
Speaker 2: freedom seems to be unstoppable. It's not only bart an
Speaker 2: attack on a particular service like Telegram you mentioned, it's
Speaker 2: about an introduction of a completely new system.
Speaker 5: Russia has unveiled what it's calling a super app that
Speaker 5: combines messaging other functions. Max As, the app it's called
Speaker 5: describes itself as a new digital platform for solving everyday problems.
Speaker 5: It's owned by a Kremlin friendly oligarch I.
Speaker 2: Would say, it's an ambitions to change social behavior. For instance,
Speaker 2: instead of black lists, websites and services blocked by the
Speaker 2: authorages because they are considered to be dangerous or harmful,
Speaker 2: now we have the concept of the white lists, so
Speaker 2: you can basically use or access only the services which
Speaker 2: are approved by the authoragies. And it's very damaging, of course,
Speaker 2: because we all understand that the white lists are by
Speaker 2: definition a limited and source.
Speaker 6: In Russia, digital controls are tightening. People can get fined
Speaker 6: simply for a search query on the Internet for materials
Speaker 6: branded as extremist by the Ministry of Justice.
Speaker 2: It's also about constant problems with mobile internet, a big problem,
Speaker 2: not only in regions as it was before, but now
Speaker 2: in big cities like Moscow, Saint Peters Book and it
Speaker 2: affects everyday life.
Speaker 3: You cannot actually pay.
Speaker 2: By your card, you cannot order a taxi, you cannot
Speaker 2: use lots of things online, and of course it creates
Speaker 2: a lot of revances. People are getting very, very frustrated,
Speaker 2: but at the same time they understand that they are absolutely.
Speaker 3: Defenseless.
Speaker 1: So when it comes to the war in Ukraine, what
Speaker 1: is it these days that Russians are being told about it?
Speaker 1: And on a street level, are people even really following
Speaker 1: what's happening there.
Speaker 2: Well, it's an interesting thing because on the one hand,
Speaker 2: I've got the ficial propaganda is very strong, and every
Speaker 2: way you have some discussion about the war, and the
Speaker 2: Kremlin is for instances promoting the idea that during the
Speaker 2: next elections to the Russian Parliament Duma, veterans of the
Speaker 2: war would be given an opportunity to actually to come
Speaker 2: into the Russian Parliament, and it's being praised by Kremlin propagantists.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, we see that lots of people
Speaker 2: do not want to think about the war because it's
Speaker 2: so uncomfortable, because you feel, first of all that you
Speaker 2: have not say in what your country is doing, not
Speaker 2: only in Ukraine but also in your country. And the
Speaker 2: best way it's some sort of psychological defense or production mechanism.
Speaker 3: You just try not to think about it.
Speaker 2: And the usual thing you counter when you talk to
Speaker 2: someone who are now is in the country, Let's not
Speaker 2: talk about it. It's too uncomfortable. I don't want to
Speaker 2: talk about it. We don't think about it, so we
Speaker 2: leave our lives day by day, and that's.
Speaker 1: It coming up. How Putin is pain for frontline soldiers
Speaker 1: Andre Your real specialty as a journalist is in Russia's
Speaker 1: security and intelligence services. And in twenty twenty three we
Speaker 1: had that failed mutiny attempt within the armed services led
Speaker 1: by Yevgeny Progossian.
Speaker 7: The uprising by the head of the Wagner Mercenary group
Speaker 7: put the country on a knife edge, but with a
Speaker 7: convoy of his fighters closing in on Moscow, Yevgeny progoes
Speaker 7: in seemingly blinked.
Speaker 1: But these days it does appear that Putin is totally
Speaker 1: entrenched and the Palace coup would look or appear impossible
Speaker 1: these days. Is that how you'd read it?
Speaker 2: Also, well, it looks like putting Lord some lessons from
Speaker 2: twenty to twenty three, and thus the fall are The
Speaker 2: problem is that Russia has some people within the army
Speaker 2: as a security services who are not extremely happy with
Speaker 2: what is going on on the Bottlefeld. Most of these
Speaker 2: people would want this war to become bigger, not smaller. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: but even these people now they do not have a
Speaker 2: real platform to talk about their ideas.
Speaker 4: Now.
Speaker 8: One of Russia's best known human rights campaigners are like
Speaker 8: all of has been jailed for two and a half
Speaker 8: years by a quarter in Moscow. It's all of who
Speaker 8: is seventy It was found guilty of repeatedly discrediting the
Speaker 8: Russian Army.
Speaker 2: Most of the people who there critical of the way
Speaker 2: the war was conducted are either in jail or killed.
Speaker 9: Vladimir Kara Murza was found guilty on alleged charges of
Speaker 9: treason for criticizing the war in Ukraine. In what was
Speaker 9: widely viewed as a show trial. The opposition activists has
Speaker 9: spent years speaking out against the Russian president and even
Speaker 9: survived two poisonings.
Speaker 2: You cannot really come together and discuss what is going
Speaker 2: on because everybody knows that the FSB made Russian Security
Speaker 2: Service is omnipresent within the military, and not only within
Speaker 2: the military, it's also got for the government, for the
Speaker 2: ministries and federal agencies. Almost every way you see someone
Speaker 2: being arrested and accused of something like deputy ministers, governors,
Speaker 2: deputy governors. It's a huge thing, and what it creates,
Speaker 2: it creates as a climate of fear and people distrust
Speaker 2: each other.
Speaker 3: The first basic thing.
Speaker 2: If you want to uganize something like a kuduitai, you
Speaker 2: need to have some trust. And this is exactly what
Speaker 2: it's like in these days now.
Speaker 1: Putin has always made it very clear that his ambition
Speaker 1: is to restore the greatness of Russia. But with the
Speaker 1: world focused on the Middle East, Trump in power, do
Speaker 1: you think Putin actually thinks he's now getting what he
Speaker 1: wanted Because NATO is divided, we have an expanded Russia.
Speaker 1: He has a freer hand in Ukraine, higher oil prices
Speaker 1: or is it more complicated.
Speaker 2: I think it's a bit more complicated, because yes, on
Speaker 2: the one hand, it looks like while we have the
Speaker 2: US president attacking nature, this is exactly what Pudder would
Speaker 2: love to hear, and of course we have all prices
Speaker 2: and problems. It creates more opportunities for Russian oil companies,
Speaker 2: and we already see that. We see how some really
Speaker 2: big countries are getting back to talking to Russian companies
Speaker 2: because we understand that they cannot get oil from, say,
Speaker 2: from the Middle East. And it's all very beneficial for Russia.
Speaker 4: But around a quarter of the world's oil supply comes
Speaker 4: from Golf countries, much of that now impacted by the
Speaker 4: Iran war, but almost twelve percent more comes from Russia.
Speaker 4: To keep that flowing, the US has already lifted sanctions
Speaker 4: on some Russian oil.
Speaker 2: On the other hand, the Russian military is not extremely
Speaker 2: happy because we'll look at it in perspective. If you
Speaker 2: say that Putting already abandoned several of his allies, I
Speaker 2: mean he did almost nothing to help the president of
Speaker 2: Syria Bashar Assad, and now apparently Puting is doing nothing
Speaker 2: or very little to protect his alle in the Iran
Speaker 2: So yes, there are lots of people who think put
Speaker 2: On could have done more to help Irun and it
Speaker 2: is humilating, so good thing for pushing He could at
Speaker 2: this for now disregard these people because he has such
Speaker 2: a good system of repressions and andre.
Speaker 1: What about the military, because this month there's a major
Speaker 1: deployment of Russian soldiers to the front. There's been these
Speaker 1: mobilizations going on for years to try and get Russians
Speaker 1: to join the military. It's often referred to as a
Speaker 1: meat grinder on the front line. So is it getting
Speaker 1: harder and harder for the state to get new recruits
Speaker 1: and why would people want to join?
Speaker 2: Well, unfortunately, what this see that there are still some
Speaker 2: people who want to join the army because of money,
Speaker 2: and especially in poor regions. It's completely changed the picture
Speaker 2: because it's not only about soldiers and being paid, it's
Speaker 2: also about military contracts. Lots of Russian military facilities are
Speaker 2: not in Moscow but in the regions, and now they're
Speaker 2: getting money because of the war, so it's beneficial for
Speaker 2: these people. On the other hand, in the army, if
Speaker 2: you talk to people who are about fighting now, there
Speaker 2: is this huge feeling of fatigue. People do not understand
Speaker 2: why the progress is so slow. And also you have
Speaker 2: this problem with the criminal propaganda, because the criminal made
Speaker 2: such a huge effort trying to compare what is going
Speaker 2: now with what took place in the Native forties during
Speaker 2: the war with Germans. Well, of course you cannot help
Speaker 2: but compare the successors of the Red Army back then
Speaker 2: and the very small successor of the Russian Army now.
Speaker 2: They have been fighting around one village for months and
Speaker 2: months and months, and it is humiliating and it's also
Speaker 2: betrays that actually you don't understand what you are fighting
Speaker 2: for and how long you can find for this particular village.
Speaker 1: Andre last month you were sentenced in absentia to four
Speaker 1: years in a Russian penal colony for your reporting on
Speaker 1: the war. Now, luckily you live in London and you're safe.
Speaker 1: But I've read your book where you talk about your
Speaker 1: old friends in Russia, some of them journalists. They're still
Speaker 1: living there and they basically appear to have taken the
Speaker 1: side of Putin. So why do you think that is?
Speaker 1: Is it pure survival? And how hard is it for
Speaker 1: you to reconcile that these people who were once your
Speaker 1: close friends are now on the side of the Kremlin.
Speaker 2: It's a very difficult question, to be honest, because we've
Speaker 2: used to be very close and at some point most
Speaker 2: of them chose to side with the Kremlin. And I
Speaker 2: would say, it's not only about fear and survival, it's
Speaker 2: also about ambition. Most of these people are extremely ambitious
Speaker 2: and they believe that in the country like Russia, you
Speaker 2: can achieve something only if you serve the dictator.
Speaker 3: And they chose that.
Speaker 2: We also already see me and my coll of Arena
Speaker 2: Borogan that Unfortunately, after the book was published, our friends
Speaker 2: and of course we send a book to them because
Speaker 2: we believed it would be fair, they got even more
Speaker 2: aggressive and some of them actually cheered a sentence I
Speaker 2: got and asking for more, maybe for our high treason charges.
Speaker 2: So I don't see any space in your room for
Speaker 2: reconciliation right now. It feels like a real civil war.
Speaker 1: Andre It's been fascinating to speak with you.
Speaker 2: Thank you, Thank you.
Speaker 1: Also in the news, the Federal Court has been told
Speaker 1: Woolworth's used subtle magic to mislead customers into thinking the
Speaker 1: price of pantry staples had been slashed when it had not.
Speaker 1: The a triple C's case against the grocery giant kicked
Speaker 1: off yesterday. Like Coals, which faced court in February, wool
Speaker 1: is accused of faking discounts by artificially increasing product prices,
Speaker 1: then lowering them and advertising it under its Prices Dropped program.
Speaker 1: Woolworth's refutes the claim, and police are investigating reports of
Speaker 1: trespassing after fugitive gunmen Desi Freeman's final hideout was filmed
Speaker 1: by YouTubers. Video has emerged from inside the shipping container
Speaker 1: where Freeman made his last stand against police before he
Speaker 1: was shot deadly last month. Freeman spent seven months on
Speaker 1: the run after killing two police officers and wounding a
Speaker 1: third in Victoria's High Country last year. I'm Nicole Johnston
Speaker 1: and this is seven AM. Thanks for listening.