1 00:00:01,600 --> 00:00:09,039 Speaker 1: He was really the strange spoilt boy who was deeply 2 00:00:09,080 --> 00:00:13,760 Speaker 1: weird and liked inflicting pain. He filled the barrel with 3 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:16,239 Speaker 1: bt concrete right to the top and he left it 4 00:00:16,280 --> 00:00:18,480 Speaker 1: overnight set it. When he came out in the morning, 5 00:00:19,440 --> 00:00:23,079 Speaker 1: it had shrunk. When it shrunk, the moisture evaporates and 6 00:00:23,440 --> 00:00:25,959 Speaker 1: concrete shrinks, and he said it left a bit of 7 00:00:26,000 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 1: the guy's head sticking out the dead victim's head. I'm 8 00:00:30,240 --> 00:00:34,960 Speaker 1: Andrew Ruler's Life and Crimes. This week we've seen a 9 00:00:35,080 --> 00:00:38,879 Speaker 1: terrible thing happened at Mount Waverley where a man and 10 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:44,720 Speaker 1: his pregnant wife were murdered in very grisly and awful circumstances. 11 00:00:44,720 --> 00:00:49,120 Speaker 1: In fact, this man, this victim, Andrew Gunn, known to 12 00:00:49,159 --> 00:00:53,600 Speaker 1: his friends as Morph, was decapitated, and it is said 13 00:00:53,600 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: that his head was placed upon a spike, which is 14 00:00:56,160 --> 00:01:00,280 Speaker 1: a very horrible and medieval thing to do with the 15 00:01:00,280 --> 00:01:03,280 Speaker 1: head of an enemy. It seemed to have a sort 16 00:01:03,280 --> 00:01:10,200 Speaker 1: of a symbolic element. Andrew Gunn's wife, Athena Georgeopolis, pregnant 17 00:01:10,280 --> 00:01:12,440 Speaker 1: at the first time at the age of thirty nine, 18 00:01:13,319 --> 00:01:15,919 Speaker 1: looking forward to being blessed with the baby she'd wanted 19 00:01:16,000 --> 00:01:22,600 Speaker 1: for so long. And instead she's been murdered, it would 20 00:01:22,640 --> 00:01:28,479 Speaker 1: appear by the man who has been arrested. Now, the 21 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,920 Speaker 1: circumstances of the crime or the alleged crime will be 22 00:01:33,040 --> 00:01:36,640 Speaker 1: sorted out by police and prosecutors and in the courts, 23 00:01:36,680 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: so we don't pass any comment about who did what. 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:43,759 Speaker 1: But one man, and one man only has been arrested 25 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:47,960 Speaker 1: over this terrible event, and we will see in due 26 00:01:48,040 --> 00:01:54,040 Speaker 1: course what the courts make of what happened. However, regardless 27 00:01:54,080 --> 00:01:56,480 Speaker 1: of what happens to the accused man in this case, 28 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:01,400 Speaker 1: it's clear that this was a terrible double murder, one 29 00:02:01,440 --> 00:02:04,920 Speaker 1: of those that people will remember, victorians will remember for 30 00:02:04,960 --> 00:02:08,320 Speaker 1: a long time, and it will join a list of 31 00:02:08,720 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: murders that stick in our minds. Some of them stick 32 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,800 Speaker 1: in our minds a lot because they've been high profile events, 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:21,360 Speaker 1: and others have been half forgotten, but once you start 34 00:02:21,400 --> 00:02:25,960 Speaker 1: thinking about it, they start coming back. We'll just go 35 00:02:26,040 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 1: through a few of them here today. Now this is 36 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 1: in no particular order, although I'll try to do it 37 00:02:31,880 --> 00:02:36,399 Speaker 1: a little bit chronologically. It's not important that we get 38 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: in perfect chronological order. But I have to say that 39 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: as a young reporter, and I have mentioned this before 40 00:02:43,560 --> 00:02:47,600 Speaker 1: in this podcast. I was shocked and stunned, and I've 41 00:02:47,680 --> 00:02:51,960 Speaker 1: never forgotten the scene in the old Coroner's Court in 42 00:02:52,120 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 1: Flinders Street Extension, where there was a cream big building 43 00:02:55,919 --> 00:03:00,640 Speaker 1: that smelt very bad and attached to the old Morg 44 00:03:01,040 --> 00:03:04,520 Speaker 1: was the Coroner's Court and it was a pretty rugged 45 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:08,399 Speaker 1: place where the ends of some very sad, bad stories 46 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,160 Speaker 1: were played out. And on this occasion, I think it 47 00:03:11,240 --> 00:03:14,920 Speaker 1: was in late nineteen seventy nine, when I was a 48 00:03:14,919 --> 00:03:20,480 Speaker 1: cadet reporter, I watched two young offenders, two young killers 49 00:03:21,160 --> 00:03:25,000 Speaker 1: at that court. I watched their behavior as a stony 50 00:03:25,040 --> 00:03:29,799 Speaker 1: faced policeman read out certain evidence. These two men were 51 00:03:29,840 --> 00:03:34,480 Speaker 1: Paul Stephen haig and his friend Robert Lindsay Wright. They 52 00:03:34,480 --> 00:03:38,000 Speaker 1: were in their early twenties. Paul Stephen Haigu for many 53 00:03:38,080 --> 00:03:43,840 Speaker 1: years had the dubious distinction of having been convicted of 54 00:03:44,040 --> 00:03:47,760 Speaker 1: the most murders in Victoria. I think he was convicted 55 00:03:47,760 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: of seven. His mate Robert Lindsay Wright was a party 56 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:58,400 Speaker 1: to some of those right actually was probably a little 57 00:03:58,400 --> 00:04:01,360 Speaker 1: more normal than Paul's Stephen Haigu, who I think is 58 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:08,680 Speaker 1: an absolute psychopath. Robert Wright was eventually to die in 59 00:04:08,760 --> 00:04:15,160 Speaker 1: the Notorious Jiker Jiker high security prison fire out at 60 00:04:15,240 --> 00:04:19,599 Speaker 1: Penridge way back when prisoners lit a fire that ended 61 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:22,680 Speaker 1: up killing some of them, and he died relatively young. 62 00:04:22,839 --> 00:04:27,000 Speaker 1: He was regarded by prison officers that told me as 63 00:04:27,040 --> 00:04:32,640 Speaker 1: a pretty bright guy who somehow went wrong. He in 64 00:04:32,680 --> 00:04:36,200 Speaker 1: fact is to play chess with certain prison officers. But 65 00:04:36,640 --> 00:04:40,800 Speaker 1: today we're going to concentrate more on his associate and 66 00:04:41,160 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: co offender, Paul Stephen Haig. Haigue was the more monstrous 67 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:49,760 Speaker 1: of the pair, without doubt, and he had to some 68 00:04:49,880 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: extent casually killed a series of people known to him 69 00:04:55,760 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 1: and to write on the grounds that they were potential 70 00:04:59,000 --> 00:05:04,280 Speaker 1: witnesses to previous crimes. So they would kill person A, 71 00:05:04,360 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: and they realized that person B was aware of this 72 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: crime or had been present or heard about it, so 73 00:05:12,120 --> 00:05:15,360 Speaker 1: they would then go and kill person B. And then 74 00:05:16,080 --> 00:05:18,799 Speaker 1: they would then go and kill person C because person 75 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 1: C knew about person b's death. And this was this 76 00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 1: terrible sort of daisy chain of death and Hague. He 77 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:34,680 Speaker 1: was a psychopath, I suspect personally not a very fearsome person. 78 00:05:34,760 --> 00:05:38,080 Speaker 1: I think without a gun or a knife or some 79 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:42,320 Speaker 1: means of leverage, he would not have been a very 80 00:05:42,520 --> 00:05:47,200 Speaker 1: scary person, particularly among heavyweight criminals, many of them can 81 00:05:47,279 --> 00:05:50,600 Speaker 1: fight like thrashing machines. He wasn't that guy. He was 82 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:58,520 Speaker 1: really the strange, spoilt boy who was deeply weird and 83 00:05:58,839 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: liked inflicting I think would be a better way to 84 00:06:02,560 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 1: see him. He was one of a list of several 85 00:06:08,480 --> 00:06:11,920 Speaker 1: rather awful killers in Victoria, or in Australia for that matter, 86 00:06:12,640 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: who had been adopted as little boys as children, which 87 00:06:16,160 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: is an interesting statistic. If you made a list of 88 00:06:19,440 --> 00:06:24,719 Speaker 1: the worst ten or a dozen killers and sex offenders 89 00:06:24,720 --> 00:06:28,320 Speaker 1: in Australia, at least half of them were adopted boys, 90 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:33,239 Speaker 1: which might tell us something about the psychology of children 91 00:06:33,240 --> 00:06:38,240 Speaker 1: which are rejected at birth or soon after. Story for 92 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:42,120 Speaker 1: another day. Ball Stephen Hay guess we mentioned, ended up 93 00:06:42,320 --> 00:06:46,040 Speaker 1: being convicted of seven murders, but two of them stand 94 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:50,520 Speaker 1: out in this sort of ghastly way. One was the 95 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:55,039 Speaker 1: stabbing death of his young girlfriend, Lisa Maude Breally. I've 96 00:06:55,080 --> 00:06:58,720 Speaker 1: never forgotten this girl's name in what forty plus years, 97 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: and I can remember there was evidence given that she 98 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: was I think she was only eighteen or something. She 99 00:07:06,320 --> 00:07:11,760 Speaker 1: was a kid, really, and she said something rather childlike 100 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,120 Speaker 1: like paul I wouldn't tell on you. I promise I 101 00:07:14,120 --> 00:07:18,120 Speaker 1: wouldn't tell on you. And because she said that, he 102 00:07:18,240 --> 00:07:21,560 Speaker 1: thought she probably might tell on him, so he decided 103 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,880 Speaker 1: to kill her, and she probably half knew that, and 104 00:07:27,280 --> 00:07:31,880 Speaker 1: yet she was unable to tear herself away from him. 105 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,120 Speaker 1: I guess he abducted her in a sense. But I 106 00:07:34,160 --> 00:07:37,360 Speaker 1: remember being horrified by hearing some of the evidence at 107 00:07:37,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 1: this current's court hearing, where there was evidence led that 108 00:07:43,040 --> 00:07:46,040 Speaker 1: Haigue had been running around with a couple of these 109 00:07:46,560 --> 00:07:51,200 Speaker 1: no good jail bird mates. And just before Haig decided 110 00:07:51,240 --> 00:07:54,760 Speaker 1: to get rid of Lizamude really by murdering her, one 111 00:07:54,800 --> 00:07:57,120 Speaker 1: of his mates said, oh, can we bun her first? 112 00:07:57,520 --> 00:07:59,600 Speaker 1: What he meant by this was could he rape her? 113 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: Essential will have sex with a forcible sex? And Haig said, 114 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: oh yeah, yeah, no worries, because you know where she's gone. 115 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:13,000 Speaker 1: It won't matter anyway. And so basically, these reptiles, I 116 00:08:13,040 --> 00:08:16,520 Speaker 1: think the man that made that suggestion was called Strawn. 117 00:08:17,920 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 1: They raped this girl and then Haig took her up 118 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:28,200 Speaker 1: to the Arab valley somewhere and he stabbed her one 119 00:08:28,280 --> 00:08:32,079 Speaker 1: hundred and fifty seven times. And when he was later 120 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: asked why he stabbed her so often. He said he 121 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 1: was counting the stab motions and he'd lose count, so 122 00:08:41,800 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: he'd start again. This was his explanation. This was how 123 00:08:46,080 --> 00:08:50,640 Speaker 1: casual and how weird and how deeply cut off this 124 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:56,240 Speaker 1: man was from any normal feeling a terrible, terrible thing, 125 00:08:56,559 --> 00:08:59,600 Speaker 1: and I personally have never forgotten it. That crime, I 126 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:02,400 Speaker 1: think is up there with the death of Rossen Noughty, 127 00:09:02,760 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: something that we explored in a podcast as recently as 128 00:09:07,120 --> 00:09:10,120 Speaker 1: this year, and for those who didn't hear it, the 129 00:09:10,240 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: Rossen Noughty case unfolded in the very early seventies in 130 00:09:15,520 --> 00:09:20,040 Speaker 1: western Victoria at Hamilton, or near Hamilton, where two young men, 131 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:26,680 Speaker 1: Christopher Lowry and Charles King, abducted a teenage girl, Rossen Noughty, 132 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: from Hamilton on the premise that they drive her home 133 00:09:30,760 --> 00:09:33,040 Speaker 1: or something. They all knew each other, they were all 134 00:09:33,080 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: local kids, and they took her to a spot out 135 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: in the bush in a nearby bush reserve. They tortured her, 136 00:09:40,440 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: and it was entirely done for her to be terrified 137 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: and to feel pain. They tied Rosen Noughty up in 138 00:09:50,120 --> 00:09:52,200 Speaker 1: such a way, They hogg tied her in such a 139 00:09:52,200 --> 00:09:56,520 Speaker 1: way that when she struggled with her feet or her arms, 140 00:09:57,040 --> 00:10:00,880 Speaker 1: it actually strangled her. So they looped rope from her 141 00:10:00,920 --> 00:10:04,640 Speaker 1: throat back to her feet, so that when she moved, 142 00:10:04,720 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 1: she would choke herself to death. And that was largely 143 00:10:10,640 --> 00:10:14,400 Speaker 1: the work. It would appear of Christopher Lowry. He was 144 00:10:14,559 --> 00:10:21,679 Speaker 1: the leader of the pair and his associate was Charles King. 145 00:10:22,080 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 1: They both got long sentences, but they were only young 146 00:10:26,480 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: when they did this. They were nineteen or so when 147 00:10:28,480 --> 00:10:31,280 Speaker 1: they did it, and both those men were out of 148 00:10:31,360 --> 00:10:35,720 Speaker 1: jail before they were forty, before they were forty. Now 149 00:10:36,200 --> 00:10:38,280 Speaker 1: forty is an age these days when people are getting 150 00:10:38,320 --> 00:10:42,600 Speaker 1: married and having children. These guys got out of jail 151 00:10:42,640 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: before they were forty. And in fact, Charles King was 152 00:10:46,200 --> 00:10:51,000 Speaker 1: able to get a job at I think a nursing home, 153 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:54,760 Speaker 1: and to build a life and marry some woman who 154 00:10:55,840 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 1: decided that he was worth saving. And he he went 155 00:11:00,880 --> 00:11:03,800 Speaker 1: on to lead a relatively blameless life as far as 156 00:11:03,800 --> 00:11:11,040 Speaker 1: I know. But Lowry vicious, psychopathic Lowry, who might have 157 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:17,360 Speaker 1: been a lot like Paul stephn Haig. He continued to offend. 158 00:11:18,080 --> 00:11:21,800 Speaker 1: He was involved in drugs and offenses, all sorts of 159 00:11:21,840 --> 00:11:26,200 Speaker 1: criminal offenses until he died relatively young, still engaging in 160 00:11:26,200 --> 00:11:30,360 Speaker 1: criminal behavior. Now, we're not doing a podcast here about 161 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,680 Speaker 1: that case. Again, we've already done one. But it's interesting 162 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:37,560 Speaker 1: to wonder what make Christopher Lowry the way he was. 163 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,600 Speaker 1: He grew up in what appeared to be a normal 164 00:11:41,360 --> 00:11:46,400 Speaker 1: working family at Hamilton. His father was a respected bricklayer 165 00:11:46,440 --> 00:11:50,200 Speaker 1: around town. There didn't seem to be anything particularly different 166 00:11:50,240 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: about the family from the outside, and yet one would 167 00:11:54,600 --> 00:11:58,720 Speaker 1: wonder why Christopher Lowry would end up being such a 168 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,080 Speaker 1: vicious killer for no apparent reason, and why one of 169 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:08,560 Speaker 1: his brothers, why his other brother Rex was convicted of, 170 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:12,080 Speaker 1: if not murder, at least mans thought over the violent 171 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,000 Speaker 1: death of another young man down Hamilton way back in 172 00:12:16,000 --> 00:12:20,680 Speaker 1: that era. For one family to produce two violent young men, 173 00:12:20,960 --> 00:12:26,400 Speaker 1: both convicted of homicides would seem more than just chance. 174 00:12:26,520 --> 00:12:31,480 Speaker 1: And you would wonder, listeners, whether those boys had been 175 00:12:31,559 --> 00:12:37,319 Speaker 1: subjected to disturbing things when they went to school at 176 00:12:37,320 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 1: a particular school in Hamilton. That is a question we 177 00:12:41,600 --> 00:12:46,720 Speaker 1: can't answer today, but it's one that perhaps someone should 178 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 1: look at. Speaking of nature or nurture, and whether these 179 00:12:51,440 --> 00:12:55,719 Speaker 1: monsters are made or whether they're born that way a 180 00:12:55,840 --> 00:13:00,439 Speaker 1: question that you could cheer over for hours, we come 181 00:13:00,480 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: across the name of Leslie Camaliary, Leslie Kamalleary. Many people 182 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:11,120 Speaker 1: will remember that name. He achieved a terrible notoriety as 183 00:13:11,200 --> 00:13:14,880 Speaker 1: the prime mover in what we call the Bigger schoolgirl 184 00:13:14,960 --> 00:13:19,400 Speaker 1: killings of nineteen ninety seven. Camalleary and an underling, you know, 185 00:13:19,400 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 1: an associate of He's called Leslie Haani Beckett. I think 186 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:26,920 Speaker 1: a Kiwi had been driving probably a stolen car, I think, 187 00:13:27,120 --> 00:13:31,360 Speaker 1: from Sydney to Melbourne, let's say, coming south, and when 188 00:13:31,400 --> 00:13:35,520 Speaker 1: they went through the New South Wales town of Beaga, 189 00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,120 Speaker 1: up near the Victorian border, they picked up these two 190 00:13:39,320 --> 00:13:43,040 Speaker 1: school girls who were just walking locally from A to 191 00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: B and unwisely took a lift of these two young 192 00:13:47,559 --> 00:13:52,400 Speaker 1: blucks in the car. Now, these men were very bad people. 193 00:13:52,760 --> 00:13:55,160 Speaker 1: They abducted the girls, they took them over the border 194 00:13:55,160 --> 00:14:00,640 Speaker 1: into Victoria. They over a twelve hour period repeatedly raped 195 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,520 Speaker 1: and assaulted those girls. And at the end of that, 196 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: of course, and this is a subject we keep coming 197 00:14:07,480 --> 00:14:09,960 Speaker 1: back to here, they wanted to get rid of the witnesses. 198 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,640 Speaker 1: All these guys schooled in this thing. You do the 199 00:14:13,679 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: offense and then you kill the victim. And so Camalleary 200 00:14:19,360 --> 00:14:23,400 Speaker 1: I think a boy's home graduate had been sexually abused 201 00:14:23,440 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: as a child himself. He forced or asked his companion 202 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: Lindsay Beckett to kill the two girls with a knife, 203 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,000 Speaker 1: which he did, and they buried them in the bush 204 00:14:36,440 --> 00:14:39,000 Speaker 1: I think just over the boarder, not that far from 205 00:14:39,160 --> 00:14:44,080 Speaker 1: malacouta in there somewhere. Now. That was a shocking crime, 206 00:14:44,160 --> 00:14:48,920 Speaker 1: but it's not the only time that Leslie Cavalleary did 207 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:53,120 Speaker 1: a terrible thing. Many years later, his name came up 208 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:58,320 Speaker 1: again in relation to the abduction and murder of a 209 00:14:58,400 --> 00:15:02,200 Speaker 1: thirteen year old girl called Bird. The Preue Bird case 210 00:15:02,320 --> 00:15:06,240 Speaker 1: was an intriguing one and a very awful one, and 211 00:15:06,440 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: it is thought that the reason that she was abducted 212 00:15:09,360 --> 00:15:13,800 Speaker 1: from her mother's Glenroy home one lunchtime when no one 213 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 1: else was there. All that her mother found later was 214 00:15:17,520 --> 00:15:22,320 Speaker 1: an untouched lunch on the kitchen table, just the meal 215 00:15:22,400 --> 00:15:26,520 Speaker 1: laid out by Prue before she apparently walked out the 216 00:15:26,560 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: door into the next world. She vanished before she picked 217 00:15:31,120 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: up a knife and forked to at at lunch. It 218 00:15:33,720 --> 00:15:36,440 Speaker 1: would appear that somebody's come to the door, grabbed her, 219 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:39,360 Speaker 1: put her in a car and taken her away. Prue 220 00:15:39,400 --> 00:15:44,240 Speaker 1: was abducted. In fact, in early nineteen ninety two. Now 221 00:15:44,360 --> 00:15:51,720 Speaker 1: it was assumed, probably correctly, but never proven, that Prue 222 00:15:51,880 --> 00:15:57,600 Speaker 1: was murdered to punish her grandmother and her step grandfather, 223 00:15:58,080 --> 00:16:04,280 Speaker 1: Paul Hetzel. Paul Hetzel was a no good crook who 224 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 1: had been involved with the Russell Street Bombers, the guys 225 00:16:09,040 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: who blew up a car outside of the Russell Street 226 00:16:11,920 --> 00:16:15,880 Speaker 1: police station in the city of Melbourne back in the 227 00:16:15,920 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: mid eighties, and one of their associates ended up, strangely enough, 228 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: becoming the husband of or partner of a young woman 229 00:16:27,560 --> 00:16:33,120 Speaker 1: called Hodson Nicki Hodson. And that is interesting because that 230 00:16:33,240 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 1: leads us, by two degrees of separation or one degree 231 00:16:37,000 --> 00:16:44,200 Speaker 1: of separation, to yet another gruesome and horrible murder, and 232 00:16:45,080 --> 00:16:49,200 Speaker 1: a griesome and horrible murder committed by one of the 233 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:53,360 Speaker 1: worst murderers we've seen in this state, who killed at 234 00:16:53,400 --> 00:16:59,680 Speaker 1: least nine people, but in three cases committed double murders 235 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:05,240 Speaker 1: where he would kill the husband or male partner that 236 00:17:05,480 --> 00:17:08,879 Speaker 1: was the target, but he would then kill the guy's 237 00:17:08,880 --> 00:17:12,919 Speaker 1: wife in case he became a witness. This was this 238 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 1: killer's hallmark. His name was and I used the past 239 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:20,800 Speaker 1: tense advisedly because he's no longer with us. His name 240 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:26,800 Speaker 1: was Rodney Collins alias Rodney Earl, alias the Duke. He 241 00:17:26,880 --> 00:17:29,679 Speaker 1: was known as the Duke because at some stage of 242 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: his checkered career he had used the name Rodney Earl 243 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:41,639 Speaker 1: and Rodney Colins alias Earl. The Duke had the reputation 244 00:17:41,760 --> 00:17:47,359 Speaker 1: of being the coldest blooded killer in Victoria, which she 245 00:17:47,480 --> 00:17:50,240 Speaker 1: may well have been, although there are a few on 246 00:17:50,280 --> 00:17:56,159 Speaker 1: that short list. Rodney Collins, like Paul Stephen Haig, was 247 00:17:56,200 --> 00:18:00,640 Speaker 1: a man who won out in a pub fight with fists. 248 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:04,040 Speaker 1: Was probably not a very fearsome creature if he couldn't 249 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: get hold of a weapon, but a lot of very 250 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:11,679 Speaker 1: tough men in jail had some respect for him or 251 00:18:11,800 --> 00:18:15,879 Speaker 1: fear of him because of his reputation for killing people 252 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,560 Speaker 1: on the outside or getting them killed. He just reveled 253 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: in it, and even amongst bad men, people trod warily 254 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:32,639 Speaker 1: around him until he got to be in advanced middle 255 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:36,320 Speaker 1: age when the young bucks caught up with him. Collins, 256 00:18:36,960 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: apart from his straight up and down criminal stuff like, 257 00:18:40,119 --> 00:18:44,359 Speaker 1: he probably was one of the pair who killed Brian Cain, 258 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,639 Speaker 1: the Great painter and Dorocker standover man shot in a 259 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 1: pub in Brunswick way back in the early eighties. Police 260 00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:57,600 Speaker 1: believe that Collins killed a drug dealer called Michael Schavella 261 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:01,800 Speaker 1: and his wife Heathen MacDonald just north of Melbourne. I 262 00:19:01,840 --> 00:19:05,640 Speaker 1: were out in the country near Kangaroo Ground or out 263 00:19:05,680 --> 00:19:09,200 Speaker 1: that way, and they're on a just a big enough 264 00:19:09,240 --> 00:19:14,240 Speaker 1: acreage that they could be ambushed there and that no 265 00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 1: one would hear what happened next, which is a very 266 00:19:18,680 --> 00:19:23,320 Speaker 1: fearsome thing. What happened next was that Collins, if indeed 267 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: it was him and perhaps a help, I don't know, 268 00:19:27,280 --> 00:19:29,800 Speaker 1: he got the drop on them. He tied them up, 269 00:19:30,320 --> 00:19:33,280 Speaker 1: He probably tortured them, I think, looking for money or drugs, 270 00:19:34,200 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 1: and ultimately he cut their throats. He cut Michael Schavella's 271 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,359 Speaker 1: throat well in the search for drugs and money, and 272 00:19:42,440 --> 00:19:46,399 Speaker 1: he killed Heathen McDonald merely because she was there. This 273 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,040 Speaker 1: is the same man who was later many years later, 274 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 1: convicted of an unsolved murder that happened in Heidelberg, West 275 00:19:56,560 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 1: back in the late eighties. And that was the murder 276 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:05,520 Speaker 1: of Raymond Abby and his wife Dorothy. And what happened 277 00:20:05,560 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: was Raymond Abbey was a sort of a small time crook. 278 00:20:08,520 --> 00:20:10,960 Speaker 1: He you know, had a bit of dope or a 279 00:20:10,960 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: bit of thefty, a bit of receiving there nothing much 280 00:20:14,680 --> 00:20:18,439 Speaker 1: usual Heidelberg West, Scullywag but he was an associate of 281 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:21,919 Speaker 1: Rodney Collins and they'd had some sort of falling out 282 00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:26,200 Speaker 1: over selling a secondhand car or something. This is how 283 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 1: banal murders can be. And there was a knock at 284 00:20:29,720 --> 00:20:33,120 Speaker 1: the door on this particular evening in Heidelberg West and 285 00:20:33,359 --> 00:20:36,600 Speaker 1: there was somebody out there in a blue police uniform 286 00:20:36,760 --> 00:20:39,400 Speaker 1: on a couple of other people, and they passed themselves 287 00:20:39,440 --> 00:20:44,280 Speaker 1: off as police, and in they came, and these fake 288 00:20:44,359 --> 00:20:48,760 Speaker 1: policemen took Raymond Abbey out to the back shed, or 289 00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 1: they caught him out in the back shed. And one 290 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:54,880 Speaker 1: of the bad guys was Rodney Collins, the one we're 291 00:20:54,880 --> 00:20:59,520 Speaker 1: talking about, and he has produced a weapon and Raymond 292 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:03,440 Speaker 1: Abbey called out no Rod, or he used the name rod, 293 00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,600 Speaker 1: don't do it or whatever. He yelled something. And because 294 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:11,240 Speaker 1: he used the name of Colin's, Colins realized that he 295 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,359 Speaker 1: had to remove or he thought he had to kill witnesses. So, 296 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:19,879 Speaker 1: having killed Raymond Abbey over what five grand for a 297 00:21:19,920 --> 00:21:23,520 Speaker 1: car or something, not much, he goes inside and he 298 00:21:23,640 --> 00:21:27,560 Speaker 1: kills Raymon Abbey's wife, Dorothy, I think he cut her throat. 299 00:21:29,200 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: He was a very bad man and quite willing to 300 00:21:31,920 --> 00:21:35,600 Speaker 1: use any means, including knives. He cut a throat. Now, 301 00:21:36,359 --> 00:21:40,919 Speaker 1: the people that were with Colins, they were not nice people. 302 00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:43,760 Speaker 1: They're very bad people. We're going to talk about one 303 00:21:43,800 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: of them in regard to prove Bird in a minute. 304 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,840 Speaker 1: But those men were so horrified by this killing of 305 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:57,359 Speaker 1: Dorothy Abby that they shut the door the bedroom door 306 00:21:58,119 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: where the little Abby children hiding. Terrified because they thought 307 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:07,040 Speaker 1: that if Colin saw these kids cowering in the bedroom, 308 00:22:07,080 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: he might kill them too, in case they were old 309 00:22:10,160 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: enough to identify. And so his own associates shut the 310 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: door of the bedroom. And when Colin said to them, 311 00:22:18,440 --> 00:22:21,719 Speaker 1: he's anybody there, they said, no, no, it's right, it's okay, 312 00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: and they left the place. Now, that double murder stayed 313 00:22:27,200 --> 00:22:32,359 Speaker 1: unsolved for many, many years, like twenty whatever, a long time. 314 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:36,520 Speaker 1: But ultimately one of those kids, who was only a 315 00:22:36,560 --> 00:22:42,000 Speaker 1: little boy back then, ultimately he agitated and talked to 316 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:47,199 Speaker 1: people and found out more about it, and ultimately Rodney 317 00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:51,920 Speaker 1: Collins was convicted of that murder. One of the reasons 318 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:56,120 Speaker 1: I think that steered the police the wards that crew 319 00:22:56,320 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 1: was that one of his associates on the abbey stole 320 00:23:02,280 --> 00:23:06,000 Speaker 1: a distinctive watch from Abby's, which was a mistake. If 321 00:23:06,040 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: you take something like a watch or a particular piece 322 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:14,400 Speaker 1: of jewelry or whatever, it can link you to that crime. 323 00:23:14,760 --> 00:23:17,639 Speaker 1: So you've got the watch, but it links you to 324 00:23:17,720 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 1: a double murder. And the blog that did that is 325 00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:26,159 Speaker 1: a guy called Mark mcconvall. Now, Mark McConnell was a 326 00:23:26,320 --> 00:23:30,359 Speaker 1: very evil guy in his own right. It's just that 327 00:23:30,600 --> 00:23:32,879 Speaker 1: some would consider that he wasn't quite as evil as 328 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:38,480 Speaker 1: Rodney Collins. But Mark mcconvall had virtually enslaved a young 329 00:23:38,560 --> 00:23:41,959 Speaker 1: woman we will call Witness Kay because she used that 330 00:23:42,800 --> 00:23:46,120 Speaker 1: name in a subsequent court case where she gave evidence. 331 00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 1: And Witness Kay was a young woman, like many others, 332 00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:53,960 Speaker 1: who had fallen under the influence of a bad man 333 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:58,160 Speaker 1: like Mark mcconvall, who had supplied her with drugs and 334 00:23:58,560 --> 00:24:03,600 Speaker 1: basically slaved her in a way. And Witness Kate later 335 00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:09,959 Speaker 1: told a story in court over the disappearance of Preu Bird. 336 00:24:10,480 --> 00:24:13,400 Speaker 1: This is how all these things are sort of interconnected. 337 00:24:13,640 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: One undergo separation, and when Prue Bird was abducted it's 338 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,119 Speaker 1: likely that she wasn't murdered immediately the same day. It 339 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,480 Speaker 1: is thought that she was locked up in a shedding Glenroy, 340 00:24:27,080 --> 00:24:30,399 Speaker 1: not far from where she was abducted by the people 341 00:24:30,440 --> 00:24:35,200 Speaker 1: that abducted her, and that Leslie Cavalleary wasn't the only 342 00:24:35,240 --> 00:24:40,720 Speaker 1: person involved, that this Mark mcconvall was, And is said 343 00:24:40,760 --> 00:24:43,760 Speaker 1: that Prue Bird was locked in the shed with Witness Kay, 344 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:47,000 Speaker 1: who was older, she might have been twenty five ors 345 00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: or whatever, and Witness K I think realized that something 346 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:57,439 Speaker 1: bad might happen to Preue Bird, but she was so 347 00:24:57,600 --> 00:25:00,760 Speaker 1: scared that she didn't want to work on Preu Bird 348 00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:03,840 Speaker 1: or to try and open the shed or leave her 349 00:25:03,840 --> 00:25:08,080 Speaker 1: open a window or whatever it was, because she realized 350 00:25:08,080 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 1: that they would kill her as punishment. And so this 351 00:25:12,600 --> 00:25:17,920 Speaker 1: young woman has, through her own terror connived essentially gone 352 00:25:17,920 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: along with the crooks who were planning to kill Preu Bird. 353 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:26,199 Speaker 1: And she would later give evidence which suggested that the 354 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 1: little girl, the thirteen year old in the shed was 355 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:32,639 Speaker 1: Preu Bird. I'm not sure what happened to Witness K, 356 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:37,399 Speaker 1: but if she's still alive, she's out there somewhere with 357 00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:43,000 Speaker 1: a terrible story to tell her own story was pretty 358 00:25:43,040 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: bad news. She was terrified of Marke mcconvaal. She once 359 00:25:48,280 --> 00:25:53,119 Speaker 1: crossed Mark mcconvall and he went out to the land 360 00:25:53,160 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: where she lived with her mother, on the outer edges 361 00:25:55,800 --> 00:25:59,199 Speaker 1: of suburbia, and he got her pet pony, and he 362 00:25:59,280 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: killed her and cut the pony's head off, and he 363 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,800 Speaker 1: brought it back to the nightclub where she was working 364 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:11,719 Speaker 1: in the city, and he nailed the pony's head to 365 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:16,320 Speaker 1: the door. This was a warning to her not to 366 00:26:16,440 --> 00:26:19,840 Speaker 1: ever cross him or to give evidence against him. And 367 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 1: this is the sort of people we're talking about here. 368 00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:24,639 Speaker 1: They'll cut a pony's head off and nail it to 369 00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: a door as a warning to a witness not to 370 00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:33,160 Speaker 1: talk about other terrible crimes. The more we talk about 371 00:26:33,160 --> 00:26:34,919 Speaker 1: it and the more we look, the more we find 372 00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: not all of them are about bullots and knives. There's 373 00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:45,000 Speaker 1: the case of the bodybuilding drug dealer A Tiller Erdai 374 00:26:45,320 --> 00:26:48,960 Speaker 1: now a Tiller good name for a body building drug dealer. 375 00:26:49,760 --> 00:26:52,000 Speaker 1: At Tilla was also a bit of a boaster, and 376 00:26:52,600 --> 00:26:57,560 Speaker 1: boasting was what got him caught. He'd made the mistake 377 00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:00,600 Speaker 1: of trying to impress a bloke he was having lunch with. 378 00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,600 Speaker 1: Unfortunately for our mate at Tilla, the man he was 379 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:10,000 Speaker 1: having lunch with wasn't the fellow drug dealer that he 380 00:27:10,040 --> 00:27:13,040 Speaker 1: appeared to be. He was in fact an undercover cop 381 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:17,920 Speaker 1: who was also a quick thinker. And when Attila started 382 00:27:17,920 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 1: to boast about how he'd had a Chinese problem but 383 00:27:20,800 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 1: he got rid of his Chinese problem, our undercover copper, 384 00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:29,119 Speaker 1: the quick thinker, knew he had to gather a bit 385 00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: of evidence, and he looked at Tiller and he held 386 00:27:32,040 --> 00:27:34,800 Speaker 1: his hand out and made the shape of a pistol 387 00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,400 Speaker 1: with his index finger and his thumb, the classic pistol shape, 388 00:27:40,000 --> 00:27:42,919 Speaker 1: and raised his eyebrows as if to ask the question, 389 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: is this what you did? You shot the guy and 390 00:27:46,560 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: you know, sort of criminal dumb show of sign language, 391 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: and a Tilla in response, shook his head and held 392 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:58,960 Speaker 1: out both his hands in a big, strong hands he 393 00:27:59,000 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 1: had weightlift, and he held them out in front of 394 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:06,119 Speaker 1: him in the classic pose of someone choking someone else, 395 00:28:06,160 --> 00:28:10,119 Speaker 1: which was indeed what he'd done. He had choked to 396 00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:15,159 Speaker 1: death a little Asian guy who owed him sixty thousand dollars, 397 00:28:15,920 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: and in fact, having made this gesture which made it 398 00:28:19,320 --> 00:28:21,880 Speaker 1: clear what he'd done, he then went on to talk 399 00:28:21,880 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: about it, because he was a boastful guy, and indeed 400 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,320 Speaker 1: this had only happened two weeks earlier. It had happened 401 00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,600 Speaker 1: exactly two weeks before this lunch, and he was busting 402 00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,679 Speaker 1: to tell somebody how he got away with murder. He 403 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:36,960 Speaker 1: started to talk. He said it took more than ten 404 00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,000 Speaker 1: minutes to choking. Choked the guy for ten minutes, who 405 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:43,840 Speaker 1: kept struggling and yelling and kicking, And he said he 406 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:47,719 Speaker 1: had used so much force that it hurt his thumbs, 407 00:28:47,720 --> 00:28:51,480 Speaker 1: his thumbs for three days afterwards. But he marveled at 408 00:28:51,520 --> 00:28:55,440 Speaker 1: how it hadn't worried him. He said to the undercover policeman, 409 00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:58,640 Speaker 1: who he thought was another crook, I never lost any 410 00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,560 Speaker 1: sleep over. It doesn't worry bring me at all. Whereas 411 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: when I went riding a few years ago, I went 412 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:09,040 Speaker 1: I went hunting with a friend, and my friend accidentally 413 00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: shot a horse, and I love horses, and I was 414 00:29:12,760 --> 00:29:14,920 Speaker 1: very sad about the horse, and I had to put 415 00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:17,440 Speaker 1: the horse out of its misery. So I went up 416 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:19,360 Speaker 1: to this white horse that had the bullet in it, 417 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:22,880 Speaker 1: and I shot it five or six times in the 418 00:29:22,920 --> 00:29:28,040 Speaker 1: head to kill it. And afterwards I never went hunting again, 419 00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:30,560 Speaker 1: because I felt sad about the horse, and I dreamed 420 00:29:30,600 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: about the horse. But when I killed this Chinese guy 421 00:29:34,560 --> 00:29:37,840 Speaker 1: wasn't a problem. This is what he said. And he 422 00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: went on to describe how he had put the victim 423 00:29:42,640 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: in a barrel. I'm going to say it was probably 424 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:48,760 Speaker 1: a forty four gallon drum, as they were always called, 425 00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 1: and I don't think it was a wooden wine barrel. 426 00:29:51,960 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: It'll be a steel drum. He put the victim in it, 427 00:29:55,680 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: and he was a small man. He was able to 428 00:29:57,480 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: sort of fold him up and jam him in, and 429 00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:04,320 Speaker 1: then he filled it with wet concrete. He filled the 430 00:30:04,360 --> 00:30:07,520 Speaker 1: barrel with wet concrete right to the top, and he 431 00:30:07,600 --> 00:30:09,560 Speaker 1: left it overnight to set, and when he came out 432 00:30:09,600 --> 00:30:12,959 Speaker 1: in the morning, it had shrunk. When it set, it shrunk. 433 00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:16,920 Speaker 1: The moisture evaporates and concrete shrinks. And he said it 434 00:30:17,000 --> 00:30:19,280 Speaker 1: left a bit of the guy's head sticking out the 435 00:30:19,360 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 1: dead victim's head. And he said, I gave it a pattern, 436 00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: and I mixed up some more concrete and tipped over 437 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:27,520 Speaker 1: the top and leveled it off. And when it was 438 00:30:27,560 --> 00:30:30,040 Speaker 1: all set, I put it in the back of the 439 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:33,280 Speaker 1: yut or whatever, any trailer or something and he took 440 00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,480 Speaker 1: it up to Pike's Creek reservoir. Now that's that lovely 441 00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:40,720 Speaker 1: bit of water that you see if you drive between 442 00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:44,479 Speaker 1: back of Marsh and Ballarat. It's on the right if 443 00:30:44,520 --> 00:30:47,760 Speaker 1: you're go into Ballarat, and there's a creek there called 444 00:30:47,840 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: Pike's Creek and it runs into it and it's quite 445 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: a big reservoir and it supplies water for irrigation purposes 446 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: all the way down to Werribee and things like that 447 00:30:57,120 --> 00:31:00,680 Speaker 1: and to back a Marsh. And he rolled it into 448 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:04,200 Speaker 1: the reservoir and all this is getting taped, I think 449 00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: by the undercover policeman. He described how the barreler bounced 450 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:10,800 Speaker 1: off some rocks, and that was very useful because the 451 00:31:10,840 --> 00:31:14,240 Speaker 1: police were then able to work out where it bounced 452 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:17,520 Speaker 1: the barrel off the rocks. There's only one spot where 453 00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,080 Speaker 1: he could really do that, and they sent a diver 454 00:31:20,200 --> 00:31:24,840 Speaker 1: down and four days after that conversation, that is sixteen 455 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:29,160 Speaker 1: days after the murder, they got the barrel, recovered the barrel, 456 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:33,720 Speaker 1: dragged it out, cracked open the concrete and there preserved 457 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: as perfect evidence of murder was the victim and Attila Erdai. 458 00:31:41,000 --> 00:31:45,080 Speaker 1: He went from doing lunch to doing time and that 459 00:31:45,280 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: is a good lesson in not boasting about your crimes. 460 00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:52,480 Speaker 1: Pretty nasty crime for all that. But he wasn't the 461 00:31:52,520 --> 00:31:56,520 Speaker 1: first to use a barrel. That method had been pioneered 462 00:31:56,560 --> 00:32:00,239 Speaker 1: by a person we've mentioned here before, Dennis Spruce all 463 00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,240 Speaker 1: known as mister Death. Dennis Spruce Allen was a very 464 00:32:06,320 --> 00:32:11,000 Speaker 1: unlovely man. He was the oldest son of Pengiller, who 465 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,280 Speaker 1: I think he's still with us. I don't think she's 466 00:32:13,320 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: died yet. It's amazing that she hasn't. But she lost 467 00:32:17,240 --> 00:32:20,640 Speaker 1: an eye, and she's lost most of her money and 468 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:23,880 Speaker 1: all that sort of thing. She's lost nearly all her kids, 469 00:32:23,920 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: I think. But she's still with us, I believe at 470 00:32:27,640 --> 00:32:32,320 Speaker 1: Venus Bay or something. And her son, Dennis Spruce Allen, 471 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 1: scared even her. He was a wicked, wicked man who 472 00:32:38,800 --> 00:32:44,880 Speaker 1: was also a vast consumer of methan fetterman as well 473 00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: as a prolific drug dealer who was well protected by 474 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:53,880 Speaker 1: corrupt police that he paid large amounts of cash too. 475 00:32:53,960 --> 00:32:58,120 Speaker 1: He used to pay two policemen, so he said, one 476 00:32:58,160 --> 00:33:02,040 Speaker 1: thousand dollars a day. This is back in the eighties. 477 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:05,560 Speaker 1: Thousand dollars a day was a fantastic amount of money, 478 00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: and he would prepare an envelope with fourteen thousand dollars 479 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 1: cash in it, and that was for two people for 480 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:18,960 Speaker 1: a week, and you'd have to wonder where the money went. 481 00:33:19,480 --> 00:33:29,400 Speaker 1: So Dennis Spruce Allen killed probably more people than Rodney Collins, 482 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: but they weren't so much all Underworld hits. They were 483 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:36,560 Speaker 1: more sort of Dennis S. Bruce Allen just being a 484 00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:40,720 Speaker 1: complete murderous place of work. He killed people for next 485 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:43,400 Speaker 1: to nothing. I don't think he was killing them for 486 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: payment the way that Rodney Collins would. But his favorite trick, 487 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,080 Speaker 1: I think was the hot shot of heroin, which is 488 00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,600 Speaker 1: a pretty well a fool proof way of killing anyone 489 00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,480 Speaker 1: who might be suspected to be a user of drugs, 490 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:03,720 Speaker 1: and therefore it was a favorite in the criminal millieure 491 00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,840 Speaker 1: where there were a lot of drug users, particularly the 492 00:34:06,880 --> 00:34:10,200 Speaker 1: girls that worked in massage parlors and on the streets. 493 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:14,319 Speaker 1: That was easy to kill one of them using the 494 00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:18,920 Speaker 1: hot shot, as they called it, of almost pure heroine 495 00:34:19,000 --> 00:34:22,799 Speaker 1: that could be written off easily as just an overdose, 496 00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: and he would do that. But he did have a 497 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: few other tricks. He had a reason to dislike a 498 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:34,200 Speaker 1: Hell's angel called Anton Kenny. And he killed Anton Kenny 499 00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:38,239 Speaker 1: down at one of his many houses in Cremorne in 500 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,920 Speaker 1: what is now trendy corner of Richmond, But in those 501 00:34:42,000 --> 00:34:45,080 Speaker 1: days it was just a rat's nest of crooks and 502 00:34:45,200 --> 00:34:48,960 Speaker 1: low life down there near the Nilex Silo, near where 503 00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:53,640 Speaker 1: Punt Road meets the Error. Essentially, that corner very trendy 504 00:34:53,719 --> 00:34:56,439 Speaker 1: these days. Houses there worth a lot of money. Back 505 00:34:56,440 --> 00:34:59,320 Speaker 1: in the day it was a very cheap corner of Melbourne, 506 00:34:59,520 --> 00:35:02,160 Speaker 1: and people like Dennis Bruce Ellen, who had plenty of 507 00:35:02,239 --> 00:35:05,680 Speaker 1: black cash, would buy up house after house after house. 508 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:09,520 Speaker 1: He owned I think sixteen houses there and he would 509 00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,040 Speaker 1: have been real estate agents buying for him and all 510 00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:15,279 Speaker 1: the rest of it. And he would use them as 511 00:35:15,360 --> 00:35:20,960 Speaker 1: drug houses and brothels and god knows what. And he 512 00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:24,279 Speaker 1: killed Anton Kenny, and having killed him, he decided that 513 00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:26,799 Speaker 1: this bloke, I think he was six foot six or 514 00:35:26,800 --> 00:35:29,800 Speaker 1: something huge man, they had to get rid of him. 515 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,040 Speaker 1: So he and his I think his brother, Victor Pierce. 516 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:35,960 Speaker 1: He had various brothers with different surnames, and one of 517 00:35:36,000 --> 00:35:38,879 Speaker 1: them was Victor Pierce. They cut Anton Kenny in half 518 00:35:38,960 --> 00:35:43,919 Speaker 1: the chainsaw, which is pretty grim. But that wasn't all. 519 00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,719 Speaker 1: While I were doing this Victor Pierce sort of the 520 00:35:46,760 --> 00:35:50,120 Speaker 1: height of good humor to cut off one of Anton 521 00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:55,160 Speaker 1: Kenny's toes with bolk cutters or butcher's knife or tom 522 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:58,200 Speaker 1: mahawk whatever. And he grabbed the toe and he ran 523 00:35:58,280 --> 00:36:02,800 Speaker 1: around the backyard, chasing his wife with it. His wife, 524 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:08,040 Speaker 1: Wendy the witch peers and he teased her as a 525 00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:10,640 Speaker 1: small boy might with a dead mouse or a cicada 526 00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:14,759 Speaker 1: or something, teasing his sister. Let's say he did this 527 00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:20,560 Speaker 1: to his everloven wife with the toe freshly removed from 528 00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:23,719 Speaker 1: a freshly murdered Hell's angel. This is the sort of 529 00:36:23,760 --> 00:36:26,719 Speaker 1: people we're talking about. That's their idea of a joke. 530 00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:31,080 Speaker 1: They then got Anton Kenny's two halves of his body 531 00:36:31,120 --> 00:36:33,520 Speaker 1: and they jammed it into a forty four gallon drum, 532 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:37,719 Speaker 1: and they sealed the drum and Dennis Bruce Ellen took 533 00:36:37,760 --> 00:36:40,400 Speaker 1: it down to the arraw and dropped it in the raw, 534 00:36:40,760 --> 00:36:43,680 Speaker 1: which was handy because later on, when he was trying 535 00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,560 Speaker 1: to deal his way out of trouble with the police, 536 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:49,120 Speaker 1: he said, I can tell you where you'll find the 537 00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:51,839 Speaker 1: body of a murdered man. I've heard that this guy 538 00:36:51,920 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 1: got murdered, and I heard that he was dumped off 539 00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:57,480 Speaker 1: the end of such and such a street into the 540 00:36:57,520 --> 00:37:01,560 Speaker 1: era and if you look there, you'll find him a 541 00:37:01,719 --> 00:37:05,160 Speaker 1: murder case, or at least a missing person's case. And 542 00:37:05,239 --> 00:37:07,759 Speaker 1: so he was able to parlay the murder that he 543 00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:12,520 Speaker 1: committed into doing an alleged favor for the police, which 544 00:37:12,640 --> 00:37:15,960 Speaker 1: was the way that he worked. So that was one 545 00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 1: of the things that Dennis Bruce Allen did, and another 546 00:37:20,400 --> 00:37:23,759 Speaker 1: involved an alleged friend of his called Wayne's Standhope. Now 547 00:37:23,760 --> 00:37:26,040 Speaker 1: I think Wayne Stanhope had just got out of jail 548 00:37:26,520 --> 00:37:29,680 Speaker 1: and he came he made a tactical error of coming 549 00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:34,240 Speaker 1: around to Dennis's house for lunch. Lunch comprised a bucket 550 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,840 Speaker 1: of CAVEC chicken, which is probably a crime in itself. 551 00:37:38,400 --> 00:37:42,200 Speaker 1: That's just a cave C chicken, his wonderful stuff. But 552 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,759 Speaker 1: after they had the CAFC chicken, they decided to play 553 00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,680 Speaker 1: some records. Back in the day when music was supplied 554 00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:51,759 Speaker 1: by vinyl, and Dennis was a great consumer of the 555 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:55,680 Speaker 1: late and great Bob Marley. Buffalo Soldier was his favorite 556 00:37:55,680 --> 00:37:59,400 Speaker 1: song and anybody who lived in Cremorn would not complain 557 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:02,760 Speaker 1: about it. Played day or night at very loud volume, 558 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:05,800 Speaker 1: because he might pull out a machine gun and shoot 559 00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:09,239 Speaker 1: at him. And so Wayne Standhope made the mistake of 560 00:38:09,280 --> 00:38:14,320 Speaker 1: approaching Dennis's record player and changing the record or something, 561 00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,839 Speaker 1: and Dennis took offense. Or maybe Dennis always had it 562 00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:20,200 Speaker 1: in for Wayne stand Hope, maybe he wasn't his friend. 563 00:38:20,320 --> 00:38:24,280 Speaker 1: Maybe he thought Wayne Stanhope might dub him in for something. 564 00:38:24,320 --> 00:38:28,480 Speaker 1: Who knows. He took drugs a lot. He would not 565 00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,560 Speaker 1: go to bed for three days. He was paranoid, he 566 00:38:31,640 --> 00:38:35,279 Speaker 1: was mad, and he was vicious. And suddenly he pulled 567 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,200 Speaker 1: out a pistol and shot Wayne stand Hope in the head. 568 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 1: And then he went and got another pistol and he 569 00:38:40,920 --> 00:38:45,680 Speaker 1: emptied it into Wayne Stanhope's body. And this was to 570 00:38:45,760 --> 00:38:49,560 Speaker 1: the consternation of other people present. This wasn't an empty house. 571 00:38:49,600 --> 00:38:52,880 Speaker 1: They'd all gathered for lunch. He then got a knife, 572 00:38:52,920 --> 00:38:56,840 Speaker 1: a kitchen knife, and he cut Wayne stand Hope's throat, 573 00:38:57,040 --> 00:38:59,799 Speaker 1: and he said something weird, like, don't you dare bleed 574 00:38:59,840 --> 00:39:02,480 Speaker 1: on my carpet. This is what he told. The man 575 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:05,839 Speaker 1: who throated cut Wayne Standhope, by this stage was no 576 00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:09,879 Speaker 1: longer with it. So he departed this world, and they 577 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:12,520 Speaker 1: dragged him out into the backyard or somewhere, and they 578 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,160 Speaker 1: wrapped him up and they got rid of him. I 579 00:39:15,239 --> 00:39:20,640 Speaker 1: understand that Dennis Bruce Allen borrowed her friend's Ford Escort 580 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: panel van, a small car but a very useful one 581 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: for these things, just big enough to put a body in. 582 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:28,400 Speaker 1: And he put the body in the escort and it 583 00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:32,920 Speaker 1: wasn't seen again. It vanished. Now officially, Wayne standhope his 584 00:39:33,000 --> 00:39:38,799 Speaker 1: body was officially never found. But I can reveal that 585 00:39:39,280 --> 00:39:44,200 Speaker 1: an undercover policeman told me that some time later, many 586 00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 1: years later, I think he was handling or looking after 587 00:39:49,360 --> 00:39:53,680 Speaker 1: were associated with looking after Wendy Pearce. Now she was 588 00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,560 Speaker 1: the one whose husband had chased it with the Hell's 589 00:39:56,600 --> 00:40:01,319 Speaker 1: angels toe and Wendy Pierce married to Victor Pierce. Victor Piece, 590 00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 1: of course, was one of the main accused in the 591 00:40:05,920 --> 00:40:10,360 Speaker 1: Wall Street murders of two policemen, and Wendy Peace was 592 00:40:10,400 --> 00:40:15,120 Speaker 1: in police custody in protection for a while and eventually 593 00:40:15,160 --> 00:40:18,160 Speaker 1: flipped the police and refused to give evidence against a 594 00:40:18,280 --> 00:40:23,759 Speaker 1: husband and basically derailed the entire police case. And the 595 00:40:23,840 --> 00:40:29,280 Speaker 1: undercover copper told me that they got information from someone 596 00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:32,120 Speaker 1: in that camp. I'm not sure if it was Wendy, 597 00:40:32,200 --> 00:40:37,320 Speaker 1: but it might have been about Wayne Stanhope's final resting place. 598 00:40:37,520 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: And they were told that if they went to luder 599 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,040 Speaker 1: Derg Bush Nature Reserve past Backus Marsh, which is not 600 00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,840 Speaker 1: far from Buck's Creek incidentally, and they went down a 601 00:40:48,880 --> 00:40:52,439 Speaker 1: certain track so far and they found a forky tree 602 00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: and a big rock or whatever whatever it was, that 603 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:59,040 Speaker 1: if they dug around there that they might find his body. Now, 604 00:40:59,320 --> 00:41:03,680 Speaker 1: the police, I understand, made a quiet reconnaissance to the area, 605 00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,759 Speaker 1: assisted by a wildlife ranger, park ranger who knew a 606 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,799 Speaker 1: lot about wildlife, including wild dogs of which there are 607 00:41:13,080 --> 00:41:16,200 Speaker 1: a few in the bush, and foxes and stuff like that. 608 00:41:16,480 --> 00:41:20,919 Speaker 1: Goannas the big consumers have found going as a good 609 00:41:20,960 --> 00:41:24,359 Speaker 1: goanna will eat a lot of dead rotten meat and 610 00:41:24,400 --> 00:41:28,040 Speaker 1: scattered the bones. And when the police got there with 611 00:41:28,080 --> 00:41:30,800 Speaker 1: the park ranger, they poked around it and they found 612 00:41:32,480 --> 00:41:34,839 Speaker 1: a pair of shoes that may well have been main 613 00:41:34,960 --> 00:41:37,319 Speaker 1: stand hopes with the right size. I don't think any 614 00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,879 Speaker 1: feet they'ved in them. And they found not much else, 615 00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:44,040 Speaker 1: but they found a scrap of a tweed coat. Of 616 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:47,160 Speaker 1: all the things, they found a scrap of a tweed coat. 617 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 1: And in that scrap of tweed coat all rotted away, 618 00:41:50,920 --> 00:41:55,799 Speaker 1: and all that they found the maker's tag that had 619 00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:58,879 Speaker 1: been made in I'm going to say Scotland, it doesn't matter, 620 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:02,680 Speaker 1: somewhere made him Britain somewhere, and it was made by 621 00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:06,560 Speaker 1: you know, mcgilla Cuddy in Scotland or whatever. And they 622 00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,280 Speaker 1: took that or wrote it down or photographed it, whatever, 623 00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,600 Speaker 1: and they went back to Melbourne and they were able 624 00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:18,279 Speaker 1: to ascertain from main Stand Hope's father that indeed he 625 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:23,000 Speaker 1: had brought such a coat from Britain years before. I 626 00:42:23,040 --> 00:42:25,919 Speaker 1: think he was a migrant, and that there was every 627 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: chance that his son had been wearing his coat. And 628 00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:33,919 Speaker 1: it was indeed the only thing that remained of his son, 629 00:42:34,040 --> 00:42:37,800 Speaker 1: Mainsteand was a pair of shoes and this scrap of clothing. 630 00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:40,960 Speaker 1: And when the police said to the park ranger back 631 00:42:41,000 --> 00:42:43,080 Speaker 1: up in the bush, they said, well, where's some bones. 632 00:42:43,120 --> 00:42:45,279 Speaker 1: Where's the rest of him? You know, we found this? 633 00:42:45,960 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 1: Where is he? And the ranger said, he's in the 634 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:54,080 Speaker 1: guts of several wild dogs and foxes because they dig 635 00:42:54,160 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: them up and they eat them, and the bones have 636 00:42:56,320 --> 00:43:01,560 Speaker 1: been crunched up and strewn around somewhere. They're gone, and 637 00:43:01,719 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: every bit of him's gone except what you can see. 638 00:43:05,600 --> 00:43:09,440 Speaker 1: The dogs and the foxes and the goannas have feasted 639 00:43:09,480 --> 00:43:13,560 Speaker 1: on Wayne Standhope and he has gone. And that is 640 00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:20,239 Speaker 1: why officially, at least there is no known gravesite for 641 00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:24,800 Speaker 1: Wayne Standhope and that there are no remains of Wayne 642 00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:29,880 Speaker 1: Standhope that prove that he was killed and disposed of. 643 00:43:30,800 --> 00:43:37,480 Speaker 1: But you can bet your life that he was. Thanks 644 00:43:37,480 --> 00:43:40,479 Speaker 1: for listening. Life and Crimes is a Sunday Herald's Sun 645 00:43:40,480 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 1: production for true crime Australia. Our producer is Johnny Burton. 646 00:43:46,040 --> 00:43:49,880 Speaker 1: For my columns, features and more, go to herold'sun dot 647 00:43:49,920 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: com dot au forward slash Andrew rule one word. For 648 00:43:55,640 --> 00:44:01,200 Speaker 1: advertising inquiries, go to news Podcast's soul at news dot 649 00:44:01,200 --> 00:44:06,400 Speaker 1: com dot au. That is all one word News Podcast's 650 00:44:06,440 --> 00:44:10,799 Speaker 1: Soul And if you want further information about this episode, 651 00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:13,160 Speaker 1: links are in the description