WEBVTT - The Trial: Beyond reasonable doubt

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<v Speaker 1>A trial like this sometimes seems like a competition naturally,

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<v Speaker 1>one side against another, like we're competing against each other,

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<v Speaker 1>like a boxing match or a football match, or netball

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<v Speaker 1>or whatever it is. The truth is more like the

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<v Speaker 1>high jump, more like the high jump. This is important.

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<v Speaker 1>Only the prosecution has to get over the bar. Defense

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<v Speaker 1>doesn't have to do anything. Defense doesn't have to jump

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<v Speaker 1>any bar. Aaron Patterson doesn't have to jump any bar

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<v Speaker 1>at all. The prosecution has to clear the bar. And

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<v Speaker 1>that's the highest bar known to the law. And that's

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<v Speaker 1>where you are now.

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<v Speaker 2>To stick with Colin Mandy's sporting analogies, it was the

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<v Speaker 2>final siren on the defense's argument on the innocence of

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<v Speaker 2>Aaron Patterson. Today, her barrister talked to the jury for

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<v Speaker 2>the whole day, telling them that probably and maybe are

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<v Speaker 2>not enough to convict his clients.

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<v Speaker 1>You are at innocent with Aaron Patterson. That's your starting point.

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<v Speaker 1>The starting point is innocence. She is assumed innocent of

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<v Speaker 1>these charges. She doesn't have to prove her innocence to

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<v Speaker 1>you because she is innocent, and it is for the

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<v Speaker 1>prosecution to disprove her account of accidental poisoning beyond reasonable

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<v Speaker 1>doubt before you can move from that position, before you

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<v Speaker 1>can find her guilty of anything.

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<v Speaker 2>He talked about her testimony Asian gross, Aaron's phones, and

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<v Speaker 2>what he said were ridiculous propositions put forward by the prosecution.

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<v Speaker 2>It was a big day and we'll break it all

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<v Speaker 2>down for you. I'm Brook Greebit Craig, and this is

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<v Speaker 2>the Mushroom Cook. It's stayed thirty five of Aaron Patterson's

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<v Speaker 2>murder trial, and I'm here with my colleague, court reporter

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<v Speaker 2>Laura Possella.

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<v Speaker 3>After three days, we've arrived at the end of mister

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<v Speaker 3>Mandy's closing address.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes we have.

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<v Speaker 3>So the jurors are done hearing from witnesses, they're done

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<v Speaker 3>hearing from barristers, and next week, in the ninth week

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<v Speaker 3>of this trial, they'll hear from Justice Christopher Bale. But

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<v Speaker 3>more about that later today. Mister Mandy picked up where

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<v Speaker 3>he left off yesterday with the day after the lunch.

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<v Speaker 2>Yes, he started with the evidence that Aaron was drinking

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<v Speaker 2>coffee on July thirty, and that's the day after that

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<v Speaker 2>deadly meal.

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<v Speaker 3>This evidence came from Erin's son, who told an investigator

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<v Speaker 3>that that morning when he woke up and came into

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<v Speaker 3>the kitchen, he saw his mum drinking coffee, but when

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<v Speaker 3>she was giving evidence, Erin said that she was actually

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<v Speaker 3>drinking tea. Mister Mandy said today, though, that it was

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<v Speaker 3>perfectly reasonable for him to assume she was drinking coffee

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<v Speaker 3>that morning, considering most days he would wake up to

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<v Speaker 3>see her doing that.

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<v Speaker 2>Now, moving on to Aaron driving her son to a

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<v Speaker 2>flying lesson that afternoon, mister Mandy told the jury the

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<v Speaker 2>prosecution's case was that Erin was faking being ill, but

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<v Speaker 2>he disputed this, saying why would she go on this

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<v Speaker 2>journey If she was faking being unwell, she would go

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<v Speaker 2>to bed.

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<v Speaker 3>Alistairs may remember that it was on this journey to

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<v Speaker 3>Tiab that Erin said she had to pull over on

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<v Speaker 3>the side of the road to go to the toilet

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<v Speaker 3>in a bush because she was experiencing diarrhea. She said.

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<v Speaker 3>When they later stopped at a service station, she went

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<v Speaker 3>into the toilet to dispose of the tissues she had

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<v Speaker 3>used to clean herself up. CCTV footage shows that she

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<v Speaker 3>only spent nine seconds in the toilet. In its closing

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<v Speaker 3>address earlier this week, the prosecution argued that if Erin

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<v Speaker 3>really did have diarrhea that day, she would have spent

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<v Speaker 3>more time in there, at the very least to wash

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<v Speaker 3>her hands. But today mister Mandy made a point of

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<v Speaker 3>saying that the prosecution didn't even ask her in cross

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<v Speaker 3>examination what she was doing in those nine seconds while

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<v Speaker 3>she was in the toilet.

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<v Speaker 2>Now moving on to Erin leaving Lean at the hospital

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<v Speaker 2>after five minutes on July thirty one, Mister Mandy said

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<v Speaker 2>she left because she was not prepared for what she

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<v Speaker 2>walked into. These are his words, but not his voice.

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<v Speaker 1>An extremely intensive five minute interaction where she was told

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<v Speaker 1>that she would be admitted and transferred to a different

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<v Speaker 1>hospital in Melbourne. Doctor Foote told her that that's what

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<v Speaker 1>needed to happen, so she was not refusing treatment. She

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<v Speaker 1>was saying there were things she needed to do before

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<v Speaker 1>she could be admitted and transferred. She had diarrhea, she

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<v Speaker 1>was dehydrated, but she was still functioning, and she was

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<v Speaker 1>plainly struggling to process what she was being told and

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<v Speaker 1>her mind turned to the practical considerations.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy then took the jury to Erin's second presentation

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<v Speaker 3>to hospital about an hour and a half later. He

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<v Speaker 3>reiterated again that on the prosecution case Erin was faking illness,

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<v Speaker 3>but he said his client was reluctant to receive treatment

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<v Speaker 3>that day because of her history of hating hospitals and

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<v Speaker 3>discharging herself against medical advice. He told the jury that

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<v Speaker 3>what she did that day was actually not consistent at

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<v Speaker 3>all with what a person faking illness would do. In

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<v Speaker 3>another theatrical moment from mister Mandy, he raised his arms

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<v Speaker 3>and said the following.

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<v Speaker 1>The allegation is that she was reluctant to be admitted

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<v Speaker 1>to be hooked up to medications because she was pretending

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<v Speaker 1>to be sick. But that's a contradictory argument. Count possibly

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<v Speaker 1>makes sense if you're pretending to be sick, if you

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<v Speaker 1>got to be saying to the medical staff, hook me up,

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<v Speaker 1>pump me full of drugs, I am very, very sick.

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<v Speaker 3>Please.

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<v Speaker 2>Now moving on to the Asian grocer, mister Mandy said

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<v Speaker 2>it would have been remarkable if Aaron gave everyone the

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<v Speaker 2>exact same account as to what happened.

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<v Speaker 3>The jury has previously heard that in the week after

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<v Speaker 3>the lunch there was a medical investigation, a health investigation,

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<v Speaker 3>a child protection investigation, and a police investigation all under

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<v Speaker 3>way at the same time. Mister Mandy explained that there

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<v Speaker 3>were many people asking Aaron many questions about where the

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<v Speaker 3>mushrooms in the beef Wellingtons had come from. In a

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<v Speaker 3>previous episode, we ran through all the varying accounts Aaron

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<v Speaker 3>gave about the location of the Asian grocer. Today, mister

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<v Speaker 3>Mandy explained where those accounts did vary.

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<v Speaker 1>Imagine that if they all agreed exactly that she used

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<v Speaker 1>the same words and said the same exactly the same things,

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<v Speaker 1>it would be firstly totally unrealistic and the prosecution would

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<v Speaker 1>probably argue in those circumstances that it was very suspicious

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<v Speaker 1>that someone had such a well scripted account of what

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<v Speaker 1>was going on.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy then reminded the jury that during the Department

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<v Speaker 3>of Health's investigation, an environmental health officer was never asked

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<v Speaker 3>to check any Asian grosses England Waverley. This was despite

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<v Speaker 3>Senior Public Health Advisor Sally Ane Atkinson telling the court

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<v Speaker 3>that she remembered telling this employee to check that suburb.

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<v Speaker 3>Mister Mandy said today that one of these two witnesses

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<v Speaker 3>must have been honestly mistaken.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Mandy then went on to speak about Phone A

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<v Speaker 2>and Phone B as another reminder for our listeners. Phone

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<v Speaker 2>A was Erin's usual phone, which the prosecution alleged she

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<v Speaker 2>concealed from police, while Phone B was the dummy phone

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<v Speaker 2>she set up to hand to police.

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<v Speaker 3>But mister Mandy questioned today why Erin would go to

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<v Speaker 3>the effort of setting up Phone B just to hand

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<v Speaker 3>it to police as a dummy phone. He said, as

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<v Speaker 3>soon as investigators looked at the phone, they would have

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<v Speaker 3>realized it was not her usual phone. He reminded the

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<v Speaker 3>jury of her evidence that she set up Phone B

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<v Speaker 3>because Phonne A was damaged and she wanted to change devices.

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<v Speaker 3>This is what he said about the allegation from the

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<v Speaker 3>prosecution that Erin concealed Phone A.

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<v Speaker 1>If the intent was to conceal the existence of Phone A,

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<v Speaker 1>why continue using it? Better yet, why not get rid

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<v Speaker 1>of it at a much earlier stage. She had the

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<v Speaker 1>opportunity to dispose of it after she got home from hospital,

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<v Speaker 1>why not take her to the tip. If she had

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<v Speaker 1>planned the cold calculated murders that the Crown says she committed,

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<v Speaker 1>deliberate murders, the Crown says she's planning at least from

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<v Speaker 1>twenty eight April and had incriminating searches on her phone.

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<v Speaker 1>This would have been part of the plan. Surely it

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<v Speaker 1>would have been destroyed.

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<v Speaker 3>He said. The fact Aaron continued to use phone A

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<v Speaker 3>after the lunch was more consistent with her account, telling

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<v Speaker 3>the jury that the prosecution were only alleging she concealed

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<v Speaker 3>Phone A to explain why certain evidence in the case

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<v Speaker 3>did not exist. He did admit that factory resetting phone

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<v Speaker 3>B was a stupid thing that his client did, but

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<v Speaker 3>he said it remained consistent with her panic state of mind.

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<v Speaker 1>His honor will direct you, as a matter of law,

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<v Speaker 1>that the law recognizes that there might be all sorts

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<v Speaker 1>of reasons why a person engages in conduct that to

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<v Speaker 1>everyone else in the outside world may make them look guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>There are all sorts of reasons why an innocent person

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<v Speaker 1>can engage in that type of conduct, like dumping the

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<v Speaker 1>dehydrator and lying. And you now have those reasons. Aaron

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<v Speaker 1>got into the witness box and told you she did

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<v Speaker 1>those things because she panicked when confronted with the terrible possibility,

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<v Speaker 1>terrible realization that her actions had caused the illnesses of

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<v Speaker 1>people that she loved. It doesn't excuse what she did,

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<v Speaker 1>not making an excuse about it. You can't jump from

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<v Speaker 1>there to what the crown wants you to conclude from

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<v Speaker 1>those items of evidence.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Mandy then turned to discussing Aaron as a witness.

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<v Speaker 2>He reiterated that she did not have to give evidence.

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<v Speaker 1>She subjected herself to lengthy cross examination and our submission

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<v Speaker 1>to you and you would probably agree that the way

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<v Speaker 1>she answered questions was careful, even pedantic, and you might

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<v Speaker 1>think that's a very sensible way of approaching things. If

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<v Speaker 1>you are going to be cross examined for six days,

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<v Speaker 1>it is difficult to imagine a situation where you would

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<v Speaker 1>be placing yourself under such an incredible amount of scrutiny.

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<v Speaker 1>But she still made the decision. She didn't have to

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<v Speaker 1>do that, and when she chose to do it, she

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<v Speaker 1>made that decision as an innocent person, because that's what

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<v Speaker 1>she is right now and has been throughout the trial.

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<v Speaker 1>Presumed innocent of all the charges.

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<v Speaker 2>Mister Mandy said she to the truth even when it

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<v Speaker 2>was deeply embarrassing, and had to admit she told lies.

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<v Speaker 2>He declared that his client came out of the extensive

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<v Speaker 2>cross examination unscathed.

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<v Speaker 1>Her account remained coherent and consistent. Day after day, even

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<v Speaker 1>when challenged rapid fire from multiple angles repeatedly. So the

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<v Speaker 1>significance of her evidence is this that his Honor will

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<v Speaker 1>give you a direction of law about the conclusions that

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<v Speaker 1>you might reach from erin giving evidence. First, if you

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<v Speaker 1>think her evidence was true, you must find her not

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<v Speaker 1>guilty of all of the charges. Second, if you're not

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<v Speaker 1>sure whether her evidence was true, but think it might be,

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<v Speaker 1>then you will have a reasonable doubt on the prosecution's

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<v Speaker 1>case and you would find her not guilty of all

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<v Speaker 1>the charges. Third, if that's not enough that you preferred

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<v Speaker 1>the prosecution case to her evidence, balancing those two things, nah,

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<v Speaker 1>prosecution a little bit better than aaron, that's not sufficient,

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<v Speaker 1>because that would be finding that the prosecution case is

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<v Speaker 1>preferable to the defense case. And it's not a question

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<v Speaker 1>in this case. I'll come back to this in a minute,

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<v Speaker 1>not a question of balancing two things.

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<v Speaker 3>It was at this point that mister Mandy took the

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<v Speaker 3>jury to the convoluted and ridiculous propositions he said were

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<v Speaker 3>made by the prosecution that we flagged at the top

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<v Speaker 3>of the episode. He said that there were at least

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<v Speaker 3>four telling the jury that it was ridiculous that Aaron

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<v Speaker 3>would commit murder without any motive to do so, Ridiculous

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<v Speaker 3>that she would use cancer as a lie to get

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<v Speaker 3>her guests to attend her lunch, ridiculous that she expected

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<v Speaker 3>the guests to take her secrets about her medical issues

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<v Speaker 3>to the grave with them, and ridiculous that she would

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<v Speaker 3>push ahead with her plan despite knowing she would be

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<v Speaker 3>in the spotlight as the cook. He then borrowed a

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<v Speaker 3>metaphor used by Crown Prosecutor Nnette Rodgers in her closing

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<v Speaker 3>address earlier this week. She referred to the case as

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<v Speaker 3>a jigsaw puzzle that they must piece together. But mister

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<v Speaker 3>Mandy said today, to force the evidence to fit the

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<v Speaker 3>image which on the puzzle box was like working backwards

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<v Speaker 3>from a place of assumed guilt.

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<v Speaker 1>You can't force jigsaw puzzle pieces together when puzzle pieces

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<v Speaker 1>don't fit naturally. When you are making the picture, You've

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<v Speaker 1>got the wrong picture, the wrong piece in the wrong spot.

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<v Speaker 1>It is not fitting naturally into that gap.

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<v Speaker 2>As he approached the end of his closing address, he

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<v Speaker 2>told the juris they could not decide the case by

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<v Speaker 2>asking themselves whose case is better.

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<v Speaker 3>It was at this point that he mentioned the sporting

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<v Speaker 3>analogy you heard At the top of the episode, he

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<v Speaker 3>spoke to the jury about the legal principles our criminal

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<v Speaker 3>justice system relies on, including the standard of proof beyond

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<v Speaker 3>reasonable doubt. He said these principles of a criminal trial

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<v Speaker 3>were like the Golden rules which protect us all from

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<v Speaker 3>being wrongfully convicted. He then launched in to his final

0:12:50.520 --> 0:12:51.880
<v Speaker 3>statement to the jury.

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<v Speaker 1>If you think that it's possible that Erin deliberately poisoned

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<v Speaker 1>the meal, you must find her not guilty. If you

0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:01.440
<v Speaker 1>think that maybe Erin deliberately poison the meal, you must

0:13:01.480 --> 0:13:04.880
<v Speaker 1>find her not guilty. If you think that she probably

0:13:04.920 --> 0:13:09.000
<v Speaker 1>deliberately poisoned the meal, you must find her not guilty.

0:13:09.400 --> 0:13:12.040
<v Speaker 1>If you think that it's possible that she intended to

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<v Speaker 1>kill or cause really serious injury to Don or Gail

0:13:15.760 --> 0:13:19.200
<v Speaker 1>or Heather, you must find her not guilty. If you

0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.640
<v Speaker 1>think maybe she intended those things, you must find her

0:13:23.080 --> 0:13:26.880
<v Speaker 1>not guilty. If you think probably she intended those things,

0:13:27.200 --> 0:13:30.360
<v Speaker 1>you must find her not guilty. And if you think

0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.680
<v Speaker 1>that it's possible Aarin intended to kill Anne, you have

0:13:33.760 --> 0:13:38.040
<v Speaker 1>to find her not guilty. Maybe she intended to kill Anne,

0:13:38.280 --> 0:13:42.480
<v Speaker 1>not guilty, Probably not guilty. If you think at the

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<v Speaker 1>end of your deliberations, taking into account the arguments that

0:13:45.920 --> 0:13:48.920
<v Speaker 1>we've made that it is a possibility that this was

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<v Speaker 1>an accident, a reasonable possibility, you must find her not guilty.

0:13:54.360 --> 0:13:57.120
<v Speaker 1>And if you think that it is a reasonable possibility

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<v Speaker 1>that her evidence was true, you must find her not guilty.

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<v Speaker 1>And our submission to you is the prosecution can't get

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<v Speaker 1>over that high bar of beyond reasonable doubt.

0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.320
<v Speaker 2>And with that, mister Mandy was done. So after eight

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<v Speaker 2>weeks and more than fifty witnesses, the jury has now

0:14:15.840 --> 0:14:20.360
<v Speaker 2>been sent out to rest before Justice Bill delivers his charge.

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<v Speaker 3>And you mentioned the word rest their book, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>because the jury have a long weekend. They won't be

0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:29.360
<v Speaker 3>required to come back until early next week. So Justice

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<v Speaker 3>Bill told them to actually think about it like a

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<v Speaker 3>second Easter. I think they were very relieved to have

0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:37.600
<v Speaker 3>some time off before they begin their deliberations next week.

0:14:38.000 --> 0:14:40.760
<v Speaker 2>You're right about that, Laura, But in the meantime, go

0:14:40.840 --> 0:14:43.760
<v Speaker 2>to the mushroomcook dot com dot au for more