WEBVTT - Who’ll be first to get booted from the NDIS?

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<v Speaker 1>From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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<v Speaker 1>It's Thursday April twenty three, twenty twenty six. Anthony Albinizi

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<v Speaker 1>is sounding out energy companies and super funds about building

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<v Speaker 1>a new refinery so we can make more of our

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<v Speaker 1>own fuel here in Australia. It had cost up to

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<v Speaker 1>ten billion dollars. That's an exclusive live now at the

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<v Speaker 1>Australian dot Com dot AU. One hundred and sixty thousand

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<v Speaker 1>people will be kicked off the National Disability Insurance Scheme

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<v Speaker 1>in a crackdown the government says is essential to fix

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<v Speaker 1>a chaotic free for all criminal magnet. But can Labor

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<v Speaker 1>get this reform through Parliament? Where does it leave the

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<v Speaker 1>coalition and how do we look after the most vulnerable

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<v Speaker 1>while stopping the rot our. Political reporter Sarah Eisen is

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<v Speaker 1>here in just a moment.

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<v Speaker 2>Because Australians expect the NDIS to support people with the

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<v Speaker 2>disability and their families and to continue to transform their

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<v Speaker 2>lives in the way we've seen happen over the past

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<v Speaker 2>thirteen years, not for it to be an atm for

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<v Speaker 2>shanks and grifters, fraudsters and crooks Under this plan, the

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<v Speaker 2>NDIS will grow every year. It will still be the

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<v Speaker 2>largest social program in Australia outside the age pension, and

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<v Speaker 2>the centerpiece of a most comprehensive suite of supports for

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<v Speaker 2>people with a disability you'll find anywhere on the planet.

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<v Speaker 1>Sarah Eison is a political reporter with The Australian Sarah.

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<v Speaker 1>Health Minister Mark Butler calls this a reset to save

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<v Speaker 1>the NDIS from criminals and bureaucratic bungling.

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<v Speaker 2>Essentially, we can't afford for the NDIS to continue growing

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<v Speaker 2>at its present rate, but far more importantly, we can't

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<v Speaker 2>afford for the NDIS to fail. It will be unsustainable

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<v Speaker 2>from a tax payer point of view, but much more important,

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<v Speaker 2>it's community support. Social license is slipping away and we

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<v Speaker 2>can't let that continue to happen.

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<v Speaker 1>And it'll mean one hundred and sixty thousand people or

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<v Speaker 1>participants as they're called, are kicked off. Who will they be?

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<v Speaker 3>The people who are going to be kicked off will

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<v Speaker 3>be from a range of different cohorts. We're not just

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<v Speaker 3>talking about autistic kids like we have in the past.

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<v Speaker 3>And the sorts of people being kicked off it will

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<v Speaker 3>depend on their functionality. Essentially, if you were thinking of

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<v Speaker 3>applying for the NBAS, you'll be assessed and your needs

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<v Speaker 3>will be assessed. Do you have trouble with speech, do

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<v Speaker 3>you have an intellectual disability? And what is it that

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<v Speaker 3>you need? And then there'll be an assessment that essentially says,

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<v Speaker 3>this is how much you're due to get through the scheme,

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<v Speaker 3>or maybe not, maybe actually you're bet catered for outside

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<v Speaker 3>of the scheme. And that rigorous tightening of eligibility through

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<v Speaker 3>testing people's actual functionality is what's going to be the

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<v Speaker 3>driver of essentially really tightening the number of people who

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<v Speaker 3>are able to get onto the scheme and putting into

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<v Speaker 3>practice what we've heard for years about its not being

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<v Speaker 3>the only lifeboat in the ocean, of everyone flocking there

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<v Speaker 3>for every single one of their needs, whether it's mild

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<v Speaker 3>autism or any other kind of disability.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, the government has referred to that NDIS review as

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<v Speaker 1>the oasis in the desert effect that the NDIS is

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<v Speaker 1>really the only game in town. But it was never

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<v Speaker 1>supposed to be like that. There was supposed to be

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<v Speaker 1>two other tiers of information and community awareness really and

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<v Speaker 1>then of early intervention and education that were supposed to help, say,

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<v Speaker 1>for example, children with a fairly mild sensory disorder or autism.

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<v Speaker 1>Why has that not worked and why is the government

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<v Speaker 1>now saying they need to do another review to design

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<v Speaker 1>those two more mild tiers.

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<v Speaker 3>Just on the review, Really, we had no idea what

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<v Speaker 3>was coming on Wednesday. It was kept so tight no

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<v Speaker 3>one was being told from states or disability advocates. So

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<v Speaker 3>if you do this immediately with no kind of further

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<v Speaker 3>review or including the community with you, the backlash would

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<v Speaker 3>be huge. And so that's how we need this short

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<v Speaker 3>and sharp review is the way that a lot of

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<v Speaker 3>people in government are describing it. To get it right

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<v Speaker 3>when it comes to different tiers. When the government created

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<v Speaker 3>the NDIS there were of course heaps of community services

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<v Speaker 3>that were funded by the states, health education and early intervention,

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<v Speaker 3>and so what happened is that all pared back. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>if you're the federal government, you're very angry about this,

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<v Speaker 3>and you're talking about how the states gave up and

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<v Speaker 3>let them handle everything. If you're a state government, you

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<v Speaker 3>were talking about how well you actually also had to

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<v Speaker 3>fund the NDAs you were giving money to a disability scheme.

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<v Speaker 3>So of course that money is coming from somewhere else.

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<v Speaker 3>But one design floor. I think that was really a

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<v Speaker 3>big part of this huge floor is that to get

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<v Speaker 3>the states on board in the first place, the Gillard

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<v Speaker 3>government said we're going to cap your annual contributions to

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<v Speaker 3>the NDAs at four percent. Now that's insane when you

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<v Speaker 3>think about at its peak, the NDAs was growing at

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<v Speaker 3>twenty two percent, and each state government their annual growth

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<v Speaker 3>could not rise above four And so that's how we

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<v Speaker 3>got a huge mismatch and funding. It's how states were

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<v Speaker 3>pretty happy to let the NDIS fund everything because they're

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<v Speaker 3>ttributions can only rise by so much. But at the

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<v Speaker 3>same time, from the state government point of view, they

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<v Speaker 3>see it as having funded quite a lot to the

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<v Speaker 3>NDIS as well to that program, and that money has

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<v Speaker 3>to come from somewhere, which is those tiers that disappeared

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<v Speaker 3>after the scheme was created.

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<v Speaker 1>Autistic kids are one of those flashpoints between the state

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<v Speaker 1>and federal governments now because the federal government's big idea

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<v Speaker 1>to help children who have mild autism was something called

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<v Speaker 1>Thriving Kids. What is that supposed to be and why

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<v Speaker 1>has it hit a roadblock?

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<v Speaker 3>Thriving Kids was meant to be this small, almost pilot

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<v Speaker 3>of what is this enormous reform now essentially a bunch

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<v Speaker 3>of money funded by the states and the Commonwealth to

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<v Speaker 3>bolster or prop up new supports that can really care

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<v Speaker 3>for kids with malder to moderate autism under the age

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<v Speaker 3>of nine. That might look like some programs in your

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<v Speaker 3>early education, it might look like some different training for GPS.

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<v Speaker 3>Really a way to make sure outside of the NBAS

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<v Speaker 3>you can cater for those kids with malder autism. However,

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<v Speaker 3>you need the son of every single state and territory.

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<v Speaker 3>Every deal is different because every state's outlook on this

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<v Speaker 3>is different. What they have is different, and there is

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<v Speaker 3>a state that's holding out, which is Queen's that the

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<v Speaker 3>liberal government, the Chris of fully government, who are seeing

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<v Speaker 3>this as just the start of a major cost shifting

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<v Speaker 3>exercise by the federal government. And unfortunately, I think today's

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<v Speaker 3>announcement will only bolster both that argument and that fight.

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<v Speaker 3>But also what is very much a fear of what

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<v Speaker 3>they're seeing is the governments incrementally and today I guess

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<v Speaker 3>it wouldn't see as incremental, but over a period of

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<v Speaker 3>time really trying to put more back onto the state governments.

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<v Speaker 3>The Commonwealth says that's fair enough, trying to revert it

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<v Speaker 3>back to the way it was meant to be. The

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<v Speaker 3>States see that as the Commonwealth trying to make them

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<v Speaker 3>pick up a huge check with not a heap of

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<v Speaker 3>clarity as to what it will look like and the

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<v Speaker 3>impact of their budget bottom line. So no surprise, there

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<v Speaker 3>is a bit of a fight between the Commonwealth and

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<v Speaker 3>some particular state governments.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, and the classic line you hear from the States

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<v Speaker 1>is that the federal government is hopeless at administering things

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<v Speaker 1>that were hopeless at robodebt, that were hopeless at pink

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<v Speaker 1>bads that they make, can't administer huge sums of money,

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<v Speaker 1>that that's the state's expertise.

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<v Speaker 4>It goes on and on.

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<v Speaker 1>Even people who stay on the ndis are going to

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<v Speaker 1>see their services constrained.

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<v Speaker 4>They're going to have to cut back.

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<v Speaker 1>The government says average plans are now about thirty one

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<v Speaker 1>thousand dollars and it wants to get them down to

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<v Speaker 1>twenty six thousand. How will that actually happen.

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<v Speaker 4>It'll happen through a huge range of things.

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<v Speaker 3>If you look at the most expensive plans on the NDS,

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<v Speaker 3>what are known as supported independent living plans, that means

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<v Speaker 3>we've got a very acute disability and you're living in

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<v Speaker 3>a specialized disabilitycommodation setting with services being provided to you

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<v Speaker 3>twenty four hours a day.

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<v Speaker 4>Those plans are worth four hundred and.

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<v Speaker 3>Thirty thousand dollars a year on average, So there are

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<v Speaker 3>plans closer to a million, and so they're reforming that

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<v Speaker 3>whole sector not to necessarily cut back those services, but

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<v Speaker 3>to make it less botique, to rest back market control,

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<v Speaker 3>to say to one company that's providing seal, to say

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<v Speaker 3>to them, we have one hundred people in this area

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<v Speaker 3>that you need to cater for, and it sort of

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<v Speaker 3>has to be at this rate or so on, as

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<v Speaker 3>opposed to one person getting a custom boutique package and

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<v Speaker 3>another person in the same suburb or street getting a

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<v Speaker 3>whole other bowtique package. It just blows out and out

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<v Speaker 3>and out. So it's even stuff like that sounds technical,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, overhauling this for a commissioning model, but it's

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<v Speaker 3>a really big deal that's going to save a lot

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<v Speaker 3>of money. And on the smaller end of things, we're

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<v Speaker 3>talking about how some things like community services, when it

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<v Speaker 3>talks about getting out into the community, things that would

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<v Speaker 3>have been funded by the NDS that are funded in

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<v Speaker 3>terms of different trips or supports that that needs to

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<v Speaker 3>come off being funded by this huge plan that needs

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<v Speaker 3>to be bolsted on that level. And there has been

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<v Speaker 3>a fund and ounce today that's really about trying to

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<v Speaker 3>re enliven what was a community mark Butler even mentioned,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, sporting clubs and so on.

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<v Speaker 2>The current way the NDIS approaches social and community participation

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<v Speaker 2>means that programs which once provided real opportunities for connection

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<v Speaker 2>have been allowed to wither away. Where programs do exist,

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<v Speaker 2>supported often by volunteers, they're often overwhelmed by NDIS providers

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<v Speaker 2>who drop their participants off without any notice. And while

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<v Speaker 2>many support workers provide valuable supports, too many participants tell

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<v Speaker 2>us their support workers are spending more time on their

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<v Speaker 2>phones than engaging with them and providing support.

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<v Speaker 3>The NDAs does cater for making sure you have a

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<v Speaker 3>strong community connection, but there's a lot of taxpayer dollars

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<v Speaker 3>being spent, so where maybe that could be catered for

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<v Speaker 3>elsewhere is another thing that's going to reduce that huge

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<v Speaker 3>size of the plan budget for those plans that are

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<v Speaker 3>on the smaller end, and then as I said, small

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<v Speaker 3>technical stuff as well for the plans on the much

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<v Speaker 3>much bigger.

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<v Speaker 1>End coming up. Everyone wanted the NDIS to work, So

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<v Speaker 1>who's to blame for the money? Think it's become This

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<v Speaker 1>is a potemic labor program, just like Medicare. They're very

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<v Speaker 1>proud of it, and I guess they're kind of embarrassed

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<v Speaker 1>now that it's turned out to be such a ballooningly

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<v Speaker 1>expensive thing. So who's to blame? The scheme was started

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<v Speaker 1>by Prime Minister Julia Gillard and her beloved Minister Jenny Macklin.

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<v Speaker 1>Tony Abbott as opposition leader gave them bipartisan support. So

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<v Speaker 1>do we blame the politicians or do we blame the bureaucrats?

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<v Speaker 1>Or do we blame the experts who they consulted to

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<v Speaker 1>design this scheme? How can the guardrails have been so

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<v Speaker 1>poor that criminals and frauds and just vast overcharging and

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<v Speaker 1>goal plating has been allowed to happen.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the refrain that's used from governments to advocates

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<v Speaker 3>to providers is this scheme it's been an airplane that

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<v Speaker 3>you're trying.

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<v Speaker 4>To build as it's taking off today.

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<v Speaker 3>Mark Butler did admit that there have been flaws from

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<v Speaker 3>the scheme from its inception. I mentioned one of them

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<v Speaker 3>earlier regarding that cap on state's growth to the scheme

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<v Speaker 3>each year in terms of the funding, and that was

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<v Speaker 3>a great way to get them in, but then it

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<v Speaker 3>led to.

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<v Speaker 4>All of these huge problems.

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<v Speaker 3>The other thing was this really central principle to the NDAs,

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<v Speaker 3>which is called choice and control. Of course that's important,

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<v Speaker 3>but then when you're saying we need to give a

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<v Speaker 3>disabled show it on this scheme complete choice. They don't

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<v Speaker 3>need to go to a registered provider if they don't

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<v Speaker 3>want to. It can be a sole trader and a

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<v Speaker 3>little boutique even if that doesn't have a heap of oversight,

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<v Speaker 3>or they can have this very custom plan and this

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<v Speaker 3>very specific place. Because choice and control is paramount. Those

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<v Speaker 3>things were built into this scheme and also a complete

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<v Speaker 3>lack of oversight, because as Mark Butler said today, around

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<v Speaker 3>ninety percent of the payments that are being made have

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<v Speaker 3>completely no oversight or checking going in beforehand. Of course

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<v Speaker 3>we've seen a heap of fraud clawed back. You've mentioned

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<v Speaker 3>some of those issues with routing on this scheme, but

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<v Speaker 3>they shouldn't be.

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<v Speaker 4>Going out in the first place. Right.

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<v Speaker 3>I heard an NDAs provider talking to me about having

0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.840
<v Speaker 3>accidentally gotten too much money. He thought he was filling

0:11:52.880 --> 0:11:55.920
<v Speaker 3>out the hours for transport costs and it was in kilometers,

0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:59.600
<v Speaker 3>but almost immediately he got five times what he was

0:11:59.640 --> 0:12:01.880
<v Speaker 3>trying to get. Sure in months that would go by,

0:12:01.960 --> 0:12:04.040
<v Speaker 3>that would get clawed back. But it's that sort of

0:12:04.080 --> 0:12:06.640
<v Speaker 3>like HAP has a way that's been built, some good

0:12:06.679 --> 0:12:09.360
<v Speaker 3>intentions that have gone wrong. How you've got the states

0:12:09.400 --> 0:12:11.679
<v Speaker 3>on board, the fact you've had advocates calling for this,

0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:15.079
<v Speaker 3>You had people like Armfels say psychosocial disability needs to

0:12:15.120 --> 0:12:17.760
<v Speaker 3>be on there, even though mental illness is much more

0:12:17.800 --> 0:12:20.920
<v Speaker 3>episodic and it's about more recovery as opposed to other

0:12:21.360 --> 0:12:25.079
<v Speaker 3>disabilities that are permanent and often get worse over time.

0:12:25.720 --> 0:12:28.600
<v Speaker 3>So I think there's a lot of blame. I think

0:12:28.600 --> 0:12:30.560
<v Speaker 3>we can put to a lot of different people. But

0:12:30.920 --> 0:12:33.360
<v Speaker 3>it does come back in my mind to the trying

0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.040
<v Speaker 3>to build a plane as it takes off and surprise, surprise,

0:12:36.760 --> 0:12:39.480
<v Speaker 3>it's been followed by a lot of issues over the years.

0:12:43.880 --> 0:12:46.720
<v Speaker 1>I can just imagine everyone who runs a business, you know,

0:12:47.160 --> 0:12:50.439
<v Speaker 1>reeling in shock at the these basic things like knowing

0:12:50.480 --> 0:12:53.720
<v Speaker 1>who your suppliers are, having digital payments so that you

0:12:53.760 --> 0:12:55.600
<v Speaker 1>can trace them more stop them if they turn out

0:12:55.640 --> 0:12:59.400
<v Speaker 1>to be fraudulent. I mean, these are very basic things

0:12:59.440 --> 0:13:02.800
<v Speaker 1>about running anything, whether it's a plumbing business or a shop,

0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.920
<v Speaker 1>or a giant corporation or a government, and it just

0:13:05.960 --> 0:13:08.120
<v Speaker 1>goes to that State's point, doesn't it that the federal

0:13:08.120 --> 0:13:12.120
<v Speaker 1>government is not good at running things? The government is

0:13:12.120 --> 0:13:13.800
<v Speaker 1>going to have to get this through the Senate. Mark

0:13:13.840 --> 0:13:15.800
<v Speaker 1>Butler says he's going to be trying to legislate this

0:13:15.840 --> 0:13:16.400
<v Speaker 1>as soon as the.

0:13:16.320 --> 0:13:17.240
<v Speaker 4>Budget is over.

0:13:17.720 --> 0:13:20.880
<v Speaker 1>The government needs eleven votes in the Senate from either

0:13:20.920 --> 0:13:23.280
<v Speaker 1>the Greens or the Cross benches to get anything through.

0:13:23.320 --> 0:13:25.360
<v Speaker 1>The Greens are already out there saying that this is

0:13:25.400 --> 0:13:29.280
<v Speaker 1>disgusting and it's fraud it's a terrible thing to do

0:13:29.360 --> 0:13:31.880
<v Speaker 1>to disable people. Are they going to be able to

0:13:31.880 --> 0:13:33.079
<v Speaker 1>get it through the Senate with.

0:13:33.080 --> 0:13:34.640
<v Speaker 4>The Liberals help? Yeah? I think they will.

0:13:35.000 --> 0:13:36.960
<v Speaker 3>The Liberals tried to do a lot of reform themselves,

0:13:37.000 --> 0:13:38.920
<v Speaker 3>actually quite a lot of reform that's similar to now.

0:13:39.080 --> 0:13:41.760
<v Speaker 3>You might remember when Minda Reynolds was an NDAs minister,

0:13:41.880 --> 0:13:44.840
<v Speaker 3>she tried to do something called independent assessments, which Bill

0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:47.800
<v Speaker 3>Shorten slayed her over. Funnily enough, that's what we're talking

0:13:47.840 --> 0:13:50.559
<v Speaker 3>about right now, people being independently assessed with their functional needs,

0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.040
<v Speaker 3>getting a plan based on that, but had all this backlash.

0:13:53.320 --> 0:13:55.600
<v Speaker 3>And it's the same with age care. These are sectors

0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.080
<v Speaker 3>that if a liberal conservative government a coalition were to

0:13:59.120 --> 0:14:03.040
<v Speaker 3>make changes, an opposition labor government would attack them for it.

0:14:03.080 --> 0:14:04.720
<v Speaker 3>Like that's how it's gone over time, And it is

0:14:04.720 --> 0:14:07.400
<v Speaker 3>in the liberals interests regardless of maybe some of the

0:14:07.400 --> 0:14:09.920
<v Speaker 3>detail of this, for the scheme to be brought into

0:14:10.000 --> 0:14:13.360
<v Speaker 3>a much more sustainable footing, because as time has shown us,

0:14:13.480 --> 0:14:16.840
<v Speaker 3>they couldn't do it. Only a labor government arguably could

0:14:16.840 --> 0:14:18.640
<v Speaker 3>do this. So I do think they will get it

0:14:18.679 --> 0:14:21.040
<v Speaker 3>through with the coalition support. The coalition will try to

0:14:21.080 --> 0:14:22.880
<v Speaker 3>figure out ways they can get some skin off labor

0:14:22.880 --> 0:14:24.560
<v Speaker 3>in this. I'm sure they'll point out the hypocrisy of

0:14:24.640 --> 0:14:27.320
<v Speaker 3>independent assessments plenty. There'll also be a bit of liberal

0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:30.720
<v Speaker 3>in fighting, as we've seen Melissa macintosho's in charge of

0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:33.520
<v Speaker 3>the disability portfolio in the Liberals actually having a lot

0:14:33.560 --> 0:14:36.720
<v Speaker 3>of concern about cuts, though today her language was much softer,

0:14:36.840 --> 0:14:39.080
<v Speaker 3>So I think Angus Taylor has sat her down and

0:14:39.120 --> 0:14:42.320
<v Speaker 3>said we're a liberal government and this is what we're doing.

0:14:42.600 --> 0:14:44.320
<v Speaker 3>So it's not going to be easy it's going to

0:14:44.360 --> 0:14:47.960
<v Speaker 3>have a heap of different people talking about hipocrisy, cuts,

0:14:48.280 --> 0:14:51.200
<v Speaker 3>the way this has been designed, rush all kinds of things.

0:14:51.200 --> 0:14:53.080
<v Speaker 3>But at the end of the day, the Coalition will

0:14:53.080 --> 0:14:55.200
<v Speaker 3>act out of self interest in this and I would

0:14:55.240 --> 0:14:58.440
<v Speaker 3>be very surprised, if not astounded, to see that party

0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:00.640
<v Speaker 3>stand in the way of passing this with the Labor goverment.

0:15:01.400 --> 0:15:03.360
<v Speaker 1>And then they'll all be claiming credit. So that's something

0:15:03.400 --> 0:15:04.040
<v Speaker 1>to look forward to.

0:15:04.160 --> 0:15:06.240
<v Speaker 4>Sarah Eyson, thank you very much, Thank you so much.

0:15:10.760 --> 0:15:13.520
<v Speaker 1>Sarah Eison is a political reporter with The Australian. You

0:15:13.560 --> 0:15:17.200
<v Speaker 1>can read all our expert reporting and analysis right now

0:15:17.240 --> 0:15:19.480
<v Speaker 1>at the Australian dot com dot au