Speaker 1: Hi, Greevers, Welcome to another installment the show. Tiffany and
Speaker 1: Cook Lillian Veronica Najad. What's your middle name, Champ? I
Speaker 1: should know my middle name.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's Maddy Am.
Speaker 1: Maddy Am. That's fancy.
Speaker 2: That's way way of saying Mary or Mary and I
Speaker 2: guess yeah, no.
Speaker 1: No, that's way fancier than tiff and Craig. What I mean,
Speaker 1: everything's fancier than Craig.
Speaker 2: Your name Anthony, Well that's a good nice name.
Speaker 1: Well yeah, but Craig's like fingernails on the blackboard, isn't
Speaker 1: it No? I think it is the name equivalent anyway,
Speaker 1: Doctor Lillian, welcome to the project. How are you?
Speaker 2: I'm all right.
Speaker 1: Now? You know what I was thinking, because well we
Speaker 1: just did a we did a interesting chat just before
Speaker 1: with doctor Bill, who's a regular here, who's a researcher
Speaker 1: and a genius from the start. It's also like you
Speaker 1: from the States, also a genius like you Vivity, Bobby
Speaker 1: Boot look at you. But we're two PhDs. We're talking
Speaker 1: about tif having a few just feeling a bit flatty,
Speaker 1: Mac Flatster and me feeling that a bit sometimes. Who
Speaker 1: looks after you, like, what's your because we're talking about
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, sometimes you know why you feel shit
Speaker 1: because something's happened, so you're a bit sad or the
Speaker 1: breasted or traumatized or anxious about a thing. But sometimes
Speaker 1: you get up and there hasn't been a thing, and
Speaker 1: you're like, I have the feeling, but I don't have
Speaker 1: the or I'm not aware of what's going on. Do
Speaker 1: you have a bit of that ever?
Speaker 2: Of course I have that probably lots of times. I
Speaker 2: think it's a pretty common thing, like just to not
Speaker 2: feel like your best, and most people don't feel their
Speaker 2: best right, Like feeling your best is pretty rare, I think,
Speaker 2: so they don't.
Speaker 1: Try to Do you try to self diagnose? Or do
Speaker 1: you talk to someone or do you go I know
Speaker 1: I'm best when I just stelay from people for a
Speaker 1: half day, or like what's your go to?
Speaker 2: I have different I don't think I have one go to.
Speaker 2: I think it depends on what I what it is.
Speaker 2: I think I'm good at kind of knowing like what
Speaker 2: I'm feeling and then not actually needing to necessarily know why. Yeah,
Speaker 2: you know, some like sometimes we talk about like, you know,
Speaker 2: the why being super important in lots of context, But
Speaker 2: I feel like sometimes in mental health and wellbeing, it's
Speaker 2: somewhere you can get stuck, you know, like if you're
Speaker 2: just like, oh, why do I feel this way and
Speaker 2: you just can't work out why, then you're just stuck
Speaker 2: in like this never ending conversation with yourself about that
Speaker 2: instead of just like acknowledging the reality of what is
Speaker 2: right now, being like, Okay, I'm not feeling great, not
Speaker 2: really sure, why could be ABCD, not really sure what
Speaker 2: am I going to do about it, and letting and
Speaker 2: not judging how you feel like. I think that's the
Speaker 2: other place that people get stuck is judgment. So it's
Speaker 2: like uncertainty is one I don't know why, so I'm
Speaker 2: going to just ruminate about that for two hours and
Speaker 2: or I feel this way and I shouldn't, so I'm
Speaker 2: just going to ruminate about that and judge myself for
Speaker 2: the rest of the day and feel worse as a result.
Speaker 2: Whereas self judgment isn't a huge part of my makeup,
Speaker 2: I don't think it ever has been, and maybe that's
Speaker 2: a flaw in some ways, it probably is, but it's
Speaker 2: been good in other ways. I don't get stuck in judgment.
Speaker 1: I think self judgment is like an unhealthy version of
Speaker 1: self awareness.
Speaker 2: Right totally, you know, yeah, exactly. I think you're right.
Speaker 2: I think it's healthy to like, like, judgment leads to guilt.
Speaker 2: Guilt has a function. It can be healthy because you
Speaker 2: might have done something wrong, right, right, So yeah, you
Speaker 2: might have made a mistake or you might have hurt
Speaker 2: someone's feelings, and that guilt is like the signal of like, oh,
Speaker 2: let's reflect on this. But like you said, you can
Speaker 2: do that without judging yourself again, and if you're able
Speaker 2: to do that, then you can most likely do something
Speaker 2: about it that's effective or helpful or healthy.
Speaker 1: I think for me it's about self awareness, not self loathing.
Speaker 1: Like I can recognize things in me that are not good, right,
Speaker 1: but then me going down an emotional end or psychological
Speaker 1: rabbit hole of the fuck I'm shit house, woe is me?
Speaker 1: I'm the worst person? Who am I to tell people
Speaker 1: what to do? I can't even do it myself. And
Speaker 1: then it's like, well, okay, you flawed and you're human
Speaker 1: and you fuck up. Welcome to the world's biggest club,
Speaker 1: the human club, right, And then you know it's like
Speaker 1: I feel flat, Okay, that's all right? You probably won't tomorrow,
Speaker 1: so you know, and we don't need to celebrate it.
Speaker 1: But I think the more like one of my friends
Speaker 1: used to get anxious and quite anxious. In fact, a
Speaker 1: guy worked with and he'd have like these anxiety attacks
Speaker 1: or panic attacks. And the best thing I could the
Speaker 1: best thing that he could get from me was I go,
Speaker 1: look at me. He'd look at me and I go,
Speaker 1: you're okay. I go, I no, you don't feel okay,
Speaker 1: but you're okay. He's like, am I I go, you're okay.
Speaker 1: I go, your big fucking blouse, but you're and he'd laugh.
Speaker 1: I go, you feel anxious. You feel and I'm not
Speaker 1: saying you don't or you shouldn't, but it's even though
Speaker 1: you're anxious, it's all right. You're anxious. You're not going
Speaker 1: to be anxious in a while. He's like, yeah, that's true.
Speaker 1: I go, all the other times that you got anxious?
Speaker 1: He goes, yeah, I go, did you stop being anxious?
Speaker 1: Eventually he goes, yep, I go, probably going to happen again. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know, So you're not denying the feeling, but you're
Speaker 1: not turning up the volume on it right exactly.
Speaker 2: And the way I talk about that with myself and
Speaker 2: with family and with clients and stuff. Is acceptance, you know,
Speaker 2: Acceptance is being aware of what's going on and seeing
Speaker 2: reality exactly as it is without judgment, and if that's
Speaker 2: one of the hardest things to do, because a lot
Speaker 2: of things are really hard to set the reality of. Yeah,
Speaker 2: but you know what you were asking before, like what
Speaker 2: do I do? Do I retreat or do I talk
Speaker 2: to somebody? And I feel like I've got a whole
Speaker 2: list of things that I do, and it just depends
Speaker 2: that day and that feeling what I decide. I might
Speaker 2: put my pajamas on, curl up on the couch and
Speaker 2: watch a show that makes me feel comforted or gives
Speaker 2: me a laugh. Or I might know that I'm going
Speaker 2: to I'm going on a walk with one of my
Speaker 2: friends that I'll be like, oh, well, i'll park this
Speaker 2: and I'm going to talk to her about it and
Speaker 2: get her perspective. Or I might like, do what I
Speaker 2: did this morning or this afternoon. I should say when
Speaker 2: my daughter finally came down from her room teenager, it's
Speaker 2: like one o'clock, two o'clock, and just complain to her,
Speaker 2: but like in a like not in a like annoying way.
Speaker 2: I mean, you can do it in an annoying way too,
Speaker 2: but like in a kind of fun humorous way, and like,
Speaker 2: you know, in a fun way blaming her for how
Speaker 2: I feel, but like she knew I wasn't, So we
Speaker 2: were just able to kind of joke back and forth
Speaker 2: with each other about how I was feeling. And that
Speaker 2: put me in a better frame of mind too, because
Speaker 2: humor is always Humour's always helpful.
Speaker 1: I think, dude, what are you smiling at?
Speaker 3: Just the fact that she's blaming your daughter. That's great.
Speaker 3: I wish I ought to keep now.
Speaker 2: Oh my god. You can blame them for so many
Speaker 2: things that made me feel good.
Speaker 1: Know I never thought of that. I'd love to get one. Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 1: I think also like the greatest, the greatest, one of
Speaker 1: the greatest challenges for me anyway, the human experience is
Speaker 1: apart from all the you know, doing life and paying
Speaker 1: the bills and trying to maintain your body and all
Speaker 1: of that, but is like this whole idea of trying
Speaker 1: to understand me, you know, like Socrates said, the beginning
Speaker 1: of wisdom is to know thyself. Right. It's like trying
Speaker 1: to who the fuck am I? And like, who have
Speaker 1: I mean? And this is part of my research, I guess,
Speaker 1: but who am I for me? And who am I
Speaker 1: for Lilian? And who am I for Tiff? And who
Speaker 1: am I for the audience? And for my mum and dad?
Speaker 1: And and like who am I? You know when you
Speaker 1: kind of open that that I'm trying to understand me
Speaker 1: for me, and I'm trying to understand the me experience
Speaker 1: for others. You know, what's the overlap or what's the
Speaker 1: you know, the connect or disconnection in the middle of
Speaker 1: all that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think part of that also also going back
Speaker 2: to Socrates because I I'm like a quote of his
Speaker 2: too that I didn't get much when I as a teenager,
Speaker 2: but I get now. Is that wisdom is when you
Speaker 2: admit that you know nothing something along those lines I comparaphrasing,
Speaker 2: but that idea of being comfortable with uncertainty, like you're
Speaker 2: not going to have all the answers even with when
Speaker 2: you're evaluating yourself, and you're not definitely not going to
Speaker 2: know what everyone thinks of you, So how do you
Speaker 2: manage that? I think that's a really important one. I
Speaker 2: think the inability to manage uncertainty has caused a lot
Speaker 2: of issues, including you know, anxiety and depression and stress.
Speaker 1: And that's a problem because the world is uncertain. Life
Speaker 1: is unsaved exactly. Relationships are uncertain, careers are I mean,
Speaker 1: the human experiences is on a level is uncertain. Like
Speaker 1: we you know, I've had friends that I loved that
Speaker 1: were healthy and fit and died, you know quite quickly
Speaker 1: that you know, and you know, I know that's very dark,
Speaker 1: but it's true. It's like we don't know. We don't
Speaker 1: know if we're going to be here next week, we
Speaker 1: don't know, if you know. There are so many things
Speaker 1: that and I think that this is not the right word,
Speaker 1: you'll correct me. But the addiction that we have, or
Speaker 1: the predisposition that we have to need certainty and need
Speaker 1: predictability and need familiarity in a world that is largely
Speaker 1: none of that, right, That's that's it. Like if you
Speaker 1: can't if you can't improvise, adapt, overcome, survive, thrive, figured out,
Speaker 1: solve problems, and you're a human today in the world,
Speaker 1: you're going to struggle because life is largely about figuring,
Speaker 1: sit out in real time and solving problems.
Speaker 2: And I completely agree, and I think that a lot
Speaker 2: of people struggle because they have unrealistic expectations of life
Speaker 2: and of themselves. Yes, and that leads them to kind
Speaker 2: of believe like that they need things for instance, that
Speaker 2: they really don't, or they have to be something or
Speaker 2: someone that you know, they don't actually have to be. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I think a lot of people struggle with that.
Speaker 1: We're doing a thing at the moment. Shout out to
Speaker 1: all my peeps who are doing the seven day Kickstart.
Speaker 1: I don't know when this will go up, it might
Speaker 1: be on the last day, but we're doing a thing
Speaker 1: Doc and Tiff Knows just called the typ seven day kickstart.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I know.
Speaker 1: Yeah. My idea was because obviously we're banging on about
Speaker 1: theory as we're doing today, which is what all podcasts starts,
Speaker 1: just words, just conversations, which is good. Some are good,
Speaker 1: some are not. Yeah, But like my idea was to
Speaker 1: do something where we stop talking and we start doing
Speaker 1: for a week. And obviously the talking is going on,
Speaker 1: but and I just said, look, here's the thing. I'm
Speaker 1: going to write some challenges, tasks, whatever you want to
Speaker 1: call them. Five different areas, you know, some summer strength,
Speaker 1: some are cardios, some are personal development, education, some are
Speaker 1: about resilience, some are about cognitive training. Five different areas,
Speaker 1: three you know, three options in each, blah blah blah
Speaker 1: blah blah. Right, but what's really good is just the
Speaker 1: fact that people are just jumping in and doing things
Speaker 1: that are uncomfortable. And I'm like, I'm suggesting. I say
Speaker 1: to them, Look, if one of the options is to
Speaker 1: go for a five k walk jog and you do
Speaker 1: that anyway, well, don't pick that. There's no growth in that.
Speaker 1: In fact of the fifth there is. Every day, there's
Speaker 1: fifteen different options in five different options over the seven days.
Speaker 1: I said, I personally, if I was doing it, I
Speaker 1: would look through that list and go, what's the thing
Speaker 1: I really fucking do not want to do? And I
Speaker 1: would do that one right now.
Speaker 2: You're very rare, Craig, but that's what I would do.
Speaker 1: That's where the value challenging yourself Like, but you go, well,
Speaker 1: I mean, like you have to. It's kind of two parts.
Speaker 1: Do you want to build adaptability and resilience? Do you
Speaker 1: do you want to be good under pressure? Do you
Speaker 1: want to be able to deal with life and mess
Speaker 1: and pain? Yes? I do? Well, guess what you have
Speaker 1: to train? You're not accidentally going to build resilience and
Speaker 1: capacity and cognitive flexibility, and you're not just going to
Speaker 1: end up with that accidentally by choosing comfort. So we
Speaker 1: want these things by you know, flexibility, resilience, but we
Speaker 1: don't want to do the work to create that outcome.
Speaker 1: And this is it's like when they're like, who wants
Speaker 1: to be in shape? Everyone who wants to do the work.
Speaker 1: No one who wants to help beating shit, No one
Speaker 1: who wants to reduce their booze by half fucking no
Speaker 1: one who wants to look amazing. Everyone, this is the problem.
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, I really like I have been following your
Speaker 2: seven days. In fact, I did challenge myself. It was
Speaker 2: a knowledge one. I think it was about learn something
Speaker 2: about thermogenesis.
Speaker 1: I actually fucked up the words. I only saw it later.
Speaker 1: I did a type by but it's called the thermic
Speaker 1: Effective Food them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I did, and I did some research on it,
Speaker 2: so now I'm a little bit more knowledgeable.
Speaker 1: That's actually really interesting, not all calories.
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, but I did what I did like
Speaker 2: about your list. I liked how there's so many practical
Speaker 2: options that people can choose from. But I really liked
Speaker 2: the section that you included on I don't know what
Speaker 2: you called it, but it was basically about distress tolerance,
Speaker 2: like how do you tolerate discomfort? Like what you just.
Speaker 1: Said, Yeah, resilience, that's a resilience.
Speaker 2: A resilience one. Yeah. So in you know, I practice
Speaker 2: a few different models of therapy, and one of them
Speaker 2: is called dialectical behavior therapy, and there's a whole skills
Speaker 2: section of that or portion of that treatments, and it's
Speaker 2: one of the main groups of skills is called distress tolerance.
Speaker 2: And it is really that ability to tolerate discomfort of
Speaker 2: any kind, so most often internal discomfort, right feelings, thoughts,
Speaker 2: but also behaviors, environment, circumstances, situations, people, And it's it
Speaker 2: is a skill where we don't really learn, right, No
Speaker 2: one's really teaching us how to do that. You might
Speaker 2: learn passively, or you know, you might have models of
Speaker 2: that behavior in your family, or something might have happened
Speaker 2: that was distressing you saw how people dealt with it,
Speaker 2: and you kind of learned through kind of social learning experiences.
Speaker 2: But we're not really taught skills on how to deal
Speaker 2: with distress. So I thought it was really nice and
Speaker 2: that you had that as part of your list of things.
Speaker 1: I think just the way that we want to train
Speaker 1: our body. You know, it's like, do you want to
Speaker 1: be strong and have good bone density and muscles that work?
Speaker 1: And do you want to be sixty or seventy one
Speaker 1: day and be able to get in and out of
Speaker 1: a chair and pick up your grand kit? Yeah, everyone
Speaker 1: says yes, you go cool, so, so work out consistently
Speaker 1: so and if you don't love it, that's okay. You'll
Speaker 1: love the results, you know, I love And what's his name?
Speaker 1: Andrew Hubman talks about a part of the brain called
Speaker 1: the anterior mid singulate cortex, which is essentially a part
Speaker 1: of the brain that literally gets bigger, creates new neural pathways,
Speaker 1: and we can see basically almost like a muscle getting bigger,
Speaker 1: this part of the brain getting bigger when we do
Speaker 1: hard things. Now, that hard thing could be going for
Speaker 1: a run, or it could be having a conversation you
Speaker 1: don't want to have, or it could be it could
Speaker 1: be you know, you want to go to bed, there's
Speaker 1: a sink full of dishes. You're like, fuck it, I'll
Speaker 1: do it in the morning. And you're like, nah, I'll
Speaker 1: just do it. So this part of the brain actually
Speaker 1: physically grows and adapts when we do hard things. And
Speaker 1: I love that idea that there's a comparative kind of
Speaker 1: you know, training our body training our brain, and when
Speaker 1: we you know, like the idea obviously of strength training
Speaker 1: is literally working against resistance. Resistance training, you know, so
Speaker 1: what do you do? You go do something hard. What's
Speaker 1: the byproduct? Oh, I get stronger, I get better, I
Speaker 1: get more functional, I'm a better version of me. Well fuck,
Speaker 1: imagine if we took that idea and transferred it to
Speaker 1: the mind or to the brain.
Speaker 2: You know, it also works. And I really like that too,
Speaker 2: and I've heard that it's also you know, taking that
Speaker 2: even further. When you're doing a challenging thing over and
Speaker 2: over and over, it's not challenging anymore. It's easy. Right,
Speaker 2: So then you then you switch because you're not getting
Speaker 2: that same growth and that work that I think that's
Speaker 2: the same for But you know, when training your body
Speaker 2: as well, you can't just do the same exercise forever.
Speaker 2: You have to switch it up in order to get
Speaker 2: the benefits.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's called progressive overload. And it's the same with
Speaker 1: the mind. Yeah, exactly the same, exactly the same. I
Speaker 1: wanted to ask you I had one which is a
Speaker 1: bit of a left tangent, but okay, it's about self sabotage.
Speaker 1: I feel like for a fair bit of my life
Speaker 1: and probably still at times, I've gotten in my own
Speaker 1: way like I've still I've done okay, I've done okay,
Speaker 1: But there are times when I have really whether or
Speaker 1: not it's been avoidance, or whether or not it's been
Speaker 1: my lack of willingness to own up to my own
Speaker 1: bullshit like self delusion, whether or not it's been laziness
Speaker 1: or imposter syndrome. And Tiff and I have spoken about
Speaker 1: this ad nauseum. But that and I even spoke about
Speaker 1: last interview that we had or last chat that we
Speaker 1: had with doctor Bill. I was talking about when I
Speaker 1: was a kid. I was so insecure when I was
Speaker 1: a young male, Like my goal wasn't to be attractive,
Speaker 1: it was to look intimidating because I felt so weak.
Speaker 1: I thought I just want to be fucking big and
Speaker 1: terrifying looking. Not because I wanted to hurt anyone, but
Speaker 1: I was so insecure. I thought I looked pissy, and
Speaker 1: men don't want to look pissy. Well I didn't, you know,
Speaker 1: So I think i'd love to know your take on,
Speaker 1: you know, navigating these ideas and these patterns and these
Speaker 1: habits that where we're essentially getting in our own way,
Speaker 1: and what we can do about that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think I have lots of thoughts about this.
Speaker 2: One of the first things that comes up for me
Speaker 2: is this, It's a concept I used to call life blockers.
Speaker 2: I think that's what you're kind of talking about. It's like,
Speaker 2: what's the what's blocking you from doing what you want,
Speaker 2: changing how you want, being who you want, blocking from
Speaker 2: your goals? And I divided up kind of there are
Speaker 2: so many things that can block you, and there's so
Speaker 2: many things that can be obstacles, and I think that
Speaker 2: they can come from within you and they can also
Speaker 2: be outside of you. And so I'd say, like if
Speaker 2: I was you know, if I if I'm talking to
Speaker 2: someone who's self sabotaging or I'm thinking about it myself
Speaker 2: for myself, I would be thinking, like, what are the
Speaker 2: feelings that could be getting in the way, What are
Speaker 2: the thoughts that I have that could be in thoughts
Speaker 2: and beliefs that I have that could be getting in
Speaker 2: the way, What are the behaviors that are getting in
Speaker 2: the way, What are the relationships that might be getting
Speaker 2: in the way, And what are the circumstances and situations
Speaker 2: that might be getting in the way. And that includes
Speaker 2: like physical issues that you might have or health issues,
Speaker 2: and I think those kind of five categories really if
Speaker 2: you're if you really think about those things, you'll find
Speaker 2: that there's probably something from every category that's that's blocking you.
Speaker 2: But usually something more salient will come out. You know,
Speaker 2: is it that I am anxious about doing something new,
Speaker 2: or is it that my thoughts are that it's impossible
Speaker 2: to change at this age? Or is it because is
Speaker 2: it my avoidance behaviors? You know what? Am I actually
Speaker 2: my procrastinating a lot? Am I distracting? Am I isolating myself?
Speaker 2: Am I you know escaping with alcohol or other substances?
Speaker 2: Relationships we all know, like we all have different relationships
Speaker 2: and some will be helpful on our way to change,
Speaker 2: and others might not be not on purpose necessarily right,
Speaker 2: like you might like if you think about, like something
Speaker 2: that's really common when you become a new mother. You've
Speaker 2: got a baby, that's a relationship, that's a relationship, so
Speaker 2: that's going to get in the way of some things,
Speaker 2: at least for a while, a little while, And even
Speaker 2: though you might not be able to do anything about it,
Speaker 2: I think it's helpful just to be aware and acknowledge
Speaker 2: that that is a reality of your life right now. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and now can reduce some of the distress associated with
Speaker 2: not being able to do what you want to do
Speaker 2: or what you want to need.
Speaker 1: I want to, I want to. I want to go
Speaker 1: back to something you said, I want to go back
Speaker 1: to relationships. So I've got a post I put up there.
Speaker 1: I wrote it years ago, I put up here every
Speaker 1: now and then, and it's about the friendship litmus test, right,
Speaker 1: And my friendship litmus test is is my life better
Speaker 1: with this person in it or out of it? Right now?
Speaker 1: I know that's a bit brutal, but like the amount
Speaker 1: of people over the years who have said to me
Speaker 1: something like my friend there's you know, they basically tell
Speaker 1: me how their friend backstabs them or treats them badly,
Speaker 1: or is disrespectful or and I'm not talking about the
Speaker 1: odd thing, right, I'm talking about consistently where their friend
Speaker 1: in inverted commas doesn't treat them well and I go, hey,
Speaker 1: lean into me. They're not a fucking friend. That's not
Speaker 1: a friend, that's just a person. You know, Yeah, like
Speaker 1: tell us about I know this is diverging a little bit,
Speaker 1: but I think most people listening would have one person
Speaker 1: in their life that they go if I could just
Speaker 1: snap my fingers. And I'm not talking about family, I'm
Speaker 1: not talking about relatives, I'm not talking about yarsband. But
Speaker 1: in terms of friends, how do we how do we
Speaker 1: untangle ourselves? I know there's no three step play, but
Speaker 1: what do you think like in terms of like, for me,
Speaker 1: this is my definition, let me know what you're like.
Speaker 1: A toxic relationship or an unhealthy friendship is one where
Speaker 1: it gives you, generally speaking, more stress and more anxiety
Speaker 1: and more negative than positive. And there's a fair bit
Speaker 1: of it. Like I'm not saying, oh, you and your
Speaker 1: friends are going through a bit of shit at the moment,
Speaker 1: you know, not that, but where they are consistently it's
Speaker 1: a lopsided relationship and it's slopsided in their favor. How
Speaker 1: do we or what do we do about that?
Speaker 2: Well? I guess what I mean, I guess the first
Speaker 2: question is, well, what need are they actually fulfilling for you,
Speaker 2: because why are you still friends with this person?
Speaker 1: Well, I think a lot of people are just scared
Speaker 1: to end it, like people are maybe like people have
Speaker 1: fear around confronting someone going hey, I know we know
Speaker 1: each other, but I actually don't want you in my
Speaker 1: life as a friend because it's right. I just think,
Speaker 1: why do we and we do? We tolerate it? How
Speaker 1: many I'm not talking necessarily about intimate relationships, but how
Speaker 1: many relationships which are unhealthy do people stay in because
Speaker 1: they associate more pain with ending it than staying in it.
Speaker 1: It's like, oh fuck, it's not worth the drama.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And look, sometimes that's true. I mean in some cases,
Speaker 2: like we know, in a lot of you know, serious
Speaker 2: domestic violence related relationships, it can be worse to leave
Speaker 2: in that moment, right, So safety can be an issue.
Speaker 2: But in general, for people who aren't in that situation,
Speaker 2: I think we do. I mean everyone has a need
Speaker 2: for love and belonging, and our relationships are the basis
Speaker 2: of resilience in our lives, like the number one factor
Speaker 2: in building resilience. But that need can be warped into
Speaker 2: unhealthy and unhealthy need for approval from everyone. People pleasing
Speaker 2: or passivity, like you're saying, I'm going to be a
Speaker 2: passive person in this friendship. I'm just going to tolerate
Speaker 2: them when they're around me. But like you said, you
Speaker 2: might be too scared or anxious to have a real
Speaker 2: conversation with the person about what the problem is, or
Speaker 2: you might be too scared or anxious to just distance
Speaker 2: yourself completely and a relationship. And I think everyone's everyone's
Speaker 2: circumstances and situations are so different too, Like if you
Speaker 2: don't have a lot of connections, then it might be
Speaker 2: even it's highly probable that it would be even scarier,
Speaker 2: even if that person isn't helpful in a lot of
Speaker 2: ways in most ways, but they're like the only person
Speaker 2: that's consistent in your life, yes, and they're not like
Speaker 2: harming you in like a like you know, like a
Speaker 2: very concrete way. It can be hard to let go
Speaker 2: or something like that. So I feel like, yeah, it's really.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's multifaceted, and there's no yeah, yeah, yeah, look
Speaker 1: I get it. I totally get it. And the idea
Speaker 1: of being yeah, I think sometimes for some people to
Speaker 1: the idea of no relationship is more terrifying than a
Speaker 1: bad relationship, so and I understand that. Yeah, it's it's
Speaker 1: it's it's a it's a compromise. But I think I'm
Speaker 1: weird because I've lived by myself forever, so I'm probably
Speaker 1: too much the other way, I'm like, I'm unhealthy, And
Speaker 1: what's the word. I'm probably atypically comfortable being by myself,
Speaker 1: you know which. Again, but isn't it funny how you
Speaker 1: can be in the middle of a million friendships and
Speaker 1: feel lonely. Well, you can be relatively on your own
Speaker 1: and not feel lone Like I never feel lonely, even
Speaker 1: though I spend a lot of time alone. Yeah, but
Speaker 1: I get But then I reckon if I was I
Speaker 1: don't know, I wasn't me and I didn't have the
Speaker 1: access to all the people that I do, and I
Speaker 1: didn't get you, some of my emotional and social needs
Speaker 1: met through all the connections through this and all the
Speaker 1: stuff I do. And I lived in the country by myself,
Speaker 1: and it'd probably be different. I'd probably be lonely.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's really important to understand that everyone
Speaker 2: has kind of their own individual needs and circumstances and experiences.
Speaker 2: But I mean, with the situation about whether you keep
Speaker 2: or don't keep a friend. I mean we talked about that.
Speaker 2: We could look at that in a life the life
Speaker 2: block or framework as well, Like you can say, like, well,
Speaker 2: what feelings are getting in the way of me doing
Speaker 2: something about this, what thoughts are getting in the way,
Speaker 2: what behaviors, what relationships, what circumstances. Then at least you
Speaker 2: have like a level of awareness, and then you can
Speaker 2: make a choice based on that, and that choice might
Speaker 2: still be to keep the friend, but at least you're
Speaker 2: making a conscious decision rather than being like this passive
Speaker 2: you know person in your life. You're saying, I'm choosing this.
Speaker 2: I know this person is unhealthy for me in abc
Speaker 2: D ways, but I've also evaluated it based on these
Speaker 2: you know, circumstances or or these beliefs that I have,
Speaker 2: and so I'm choosing to continue with this relationship for now.
Speaker 2: I think that's really important to have like agency, that
Speaker 2: you're not just on this passive ride letting someone else
Speaker 2: dictate you know, your life and who you spend time with.
Speaker 2: That you're actually making a conscious choice, even if it's
Speaker 2: not necessarily the healthiest one moment.
Speaker 1: Yeah, So almost like doing a cost benefit analysis and
Speaker 1: then gone, mm hmm, I'll stay for now.
Speaker 2: Well that's pros and cons. But I feel like this
Speaker 2: is more about self awareness. This is more like, why
Speaker 2: am I choosing to be friends with this person?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, Oh, there's a level of they're the only person
Speaker 2: in my life right now. There's a level of I
Speaker 2: know what to expect. There's no surprises with this person.
Speaker 2: I have a core belief that you you, you know,
Speaker 2: keep at it with your friends, and you know things
Speaker 2: can get better. Like there there are things that you know,
Speaker 2: values and you know other there's a lot there are
Speaker 2: a lot of factors that will play a part in
Speaker 2: those decisions, but not knowing what they are is just
Speaker 2: living blindly and you know. Then then it's called self sabotage,
Speaker 2: which is quite a vague term and quite judgmental and blaming,
Speaker 2: rather than oh no, I've I've actually looked at this,
Speaker 2: and I know why I'm making this choice, this choice.
Speaker 1: Do you think? I think the way that we get
Speaker 1: into let's talk about relationships now. The way that we
Speaker 1: get into relationships is interesting because I feel like when
Speaker 1: one of your goals this year, my goal in twenty
Speaker 1: twenty five is to meet my life partner or you know,
Speaker 1: I don't know, is that a good goal that seems
Speaker 1: fraught with danger? Like or to I mean literally, I
Speaker 1: know many have known many people over the years, so
Speaker 1: like the top of their to do list was to
Speaker 1: get married. I'm like, wow, when that's like your priority
Speaker 1: and you're not even in a relationship at this point
Speaker 1: in time, I don't know that you're going to start
Speaker 1: that potential marriage on the best foot because you're going
Speaker 1: to be somewhat compromised in like, because you care more
Speaker 1: about being married than finding the person that is the
Speaker 1: best person for you. Maybe you know, is good? Is
Speaker 1: it a good goal? Or is it I don't know.
Speaker 2: I mean I think it's it's again, it's so it's
Speaker 2: quite I know, marriage seems like it's a concrete thing,
Speaker 2: but it's not. Really What does marriage mean to you? Like,
Speaker 2: it means something different to everybody. For some people, it
Speaker 2: means that they'll be approved of, you know, like a
Speaker 2: lot of you know, mostly women unfortunately, but people if
Speaker 2: they're not married by a certain age, they feel like
Speaker 2: society is looking down on them. So it's not even
Speaker 2: like the goal isn't really about marriage, it's about feeling
Speaker 2: good enough or worthy or valued. So I think it's
Speaker 2: like really thinking about what your goals actually mean. What?
Speaker 2: What is it? Why do you want that? That's where
Speaker 2: Why is I think important important and important question to
Speaker 2: ask yourself? What does it mean to me? How will
Speaker 2: my life be different?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah? How old is marriage? Tif? Can you? Can
Speaker 1: you google that? Can you? How long is the institution
Speaker 1: of marriage? Like, so we've been around for three hundred
Speaker 1: thousand years as a species, give or take. How long?
Speaker 1: How old is marriage? I wonder in terms of as
Speaker 1: a cultural norm in the way that what's your guess, doc,
Speaker 1: what's your guess?
Speaker 2: Oh, gosh, I don't know. Ten thousand years? I don't know.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I would have said around that too, I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like when the what do you got? Tiff?
Speaker 4: The word marriage comes from Middle English and was first
Speaker 4: seen in nineteen fifty to thirteen hundred CE.
Speaker 3: I don't even know what that means.
Speaker 1: That means basically that's the new term for BC before.
Speaker 2: So not that long, man, like four thousand years, three thousand?
Speaker 1: How long has this marriage been in existence? Thousands of years? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Twenty three fifty okay, so four and a half thousand years.
Speaker 1: That's not long if you think we've been around for
Speaker 1: two to three hundred thousand years as a species modern man,
Speaker 1: modern man. Yeah, that's yeah, I will Yeah, So.
Speaker 2: Why did you ask the question? What were you? What was? Well?
Speaker 1: I was just like, you're it's interesting when you say, yeah,
Speaker 1: but what does it mean? I'm like, that's actually a
Speaker 1: fucking good question. What does it mean? And I'm not
Speaker 1: by the way people think because I'm not married, but
Speaker 1: I'm definitely not anti marriage. Most of my friends are married,
Speaker 1: my parents are married, my all my best mates are
Speaker 1: married and happily married. Like there's it's disproportionately successful for
Speaker 1: my for the people in my world.
Speaker 2: So yeah, and I think the meaning of marriage would
Speaker 2: have changed over time, and it's definitely different and different
Speaker 2: even now in different cultures too, like history of marriage
Speaker 2: just being like basically a deal, you know, like a
Speaker 2: deal between families, and so that's not that's not a
Speaker 2: belonging need, that's like a safety and security need. That's
Speaker 2: something different like we think about. Yeah, so.
Speaker 1: Chiefs definitely wants to say something I do.
Speaker 4: In our culture in Australia and similar cultures, isn't it
Speaker 4: funny how marriage would have to be probably one of
Speaker 4: the biggest aspects of a person's life. And it's one
Speaker 4: of the only things I can think of right now
Speaker 4: where you get no guidance, no training, no education, and
Speaker 4: no coaching or and you're just off you go out
Speaker 4: figure it out like you be coaching, You get education,
Speaker 4: you get everything else in your life that you have
Speaker 4: to go and do and achieve.
Speaker 3: You you get some structure around it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean really we get our knowledge, you know,
Speaker 2: our knowledge or information about the marriage and those kinds
Speaker 2: of relationships through what we see and around us, like
Speaker 2: what we experience ourselves in our lives, and also like
Speaker 2: models and you know, pop culture might maybe like television,
Speaker 2: like there's lots of models for relationships, but it's usually
Speaker 2: you're right, like, usually no one's really seeking relationship counseling
Speaker 2: until there's a problem. I mean, look in some actually,
Speaker 2: in some cases people do seek marriage counseling or kind
Speaker 2: of education and relationships before marriage, and some like churches
Speaker 2: and things. I think that there are some requirements or
Speaker 2: nudges towards like having chats before you actually get married
Speaker 2: and having those kind of conversations about what your values
Speaker 2: are and what your goals are, and you know your
Speaker 2: differences and but probably on the whole in those people
Speaker 2: aren't doing that.
Speaker 1: All right, I've got a pop quiz for you too.
Speaker 1: You're not allowed to neither of you allowed to use
Speaker 1: your computer, not allowed to use your computer. Divorce rates
Speaker 1: in the United States? What percentage of all marriages and
Speaker 1: then divorce.
Speaker 3: Tiff I'm going to go sixty percent.
Speaker 1: Well, says here, forty to fifty so yeah, and then okay, UK,
Speaker 1: the UK forty, yeah, forty two, very good, TIF Australia
Speaker 1: sixty forty forty Canada blah blah blah. I'll tell you
Speaker 1: what's interesting. Both you India have a.
Speaker 4: Guess eighty percent. No, would be a lot less, so
Speaker 4: I mean eighty percent successful.
Speaker 2: Twenty you're saying, yeah, the lan what's your guess. I
Speaker 2: think I'll go with Tiffany on that one.
Speaker 1: India one to two percent.
Speaker 4: Oh really, it's really interesting when I was there talking
Speaker 4: about arranged marriages versus marrying for love, and it's real
Speaker 4: eye opening in it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I found it really interesting.
Speaker 4: Well, yeah, he's got for an agreement and it's based
Speaker 4: on values and respect and it actually tends to Funnily enough,
Speaker 4: the lady I had the conversation with divorced and came
Speaker 4: and married someone for love, but she said it can
Speaker 4: be a better arrangement.
Speaker 2: Yeah, and well, I think it's really we can come
Speaker 2: up with all sorts of interpretations for that, right. It's
Speaker 2: like one is potentially getting married for reasons other than
Speaker 2: love might make your marriage last long, or that could
Speaker 2: be an interpretation. But it could also be that it's
Speaker 2: so frowned upon in society that people are afraid to
Speaker 2: leave their relationships, or it's maybe really difficult in terms
Speaker 2: of if you are a divorced person, particularly women, I
Speaker 2: would imagine what the circumstances of your life would be
Speaker 2: after that. So yeah, I don't know what accounts. That's
Speaker 2: very low, that's shockingly low.
Speaker 1: That's a good point though. Culturally and also religiously, Like
Speaker 1: when I was young and I was super churchy, I
Speaker 1: was in a church where you pretty much you don't
Speaker 1: get divorced, Like, yes, it's not an option. I mean
Speaker 1: it technically is, but if you get divorced, you're pretty
Speaker 1: much out of the religion, you're out of the church,
Speaker 1: and so you know, and people would get married super
Speaker 1: young because there was no sex before marriage, and so
Speaker 1: you know, people wanted to root so that'd get married
Speaker 1: at twenty I was engaged at twenty one in that church.
Speaker 1: Did you do you know that?
Speaker 2: Tip?
Speaker 3: I did?
Speaker 2: I did?
Speaker 1: I was engaged at twenty one, and shout out to
Speaker 1: my ex fiance. She dodged a bullet by missing me.
Speaker 1: Fuck how lucky is she? I would have been a
Speaker 1: fucking nightmare. Imagine marrying me. So God intervened and saved
Speaker 1: her from me. So well done her. But yeah, it's
Speaker 1: but even me ending the engagement, fuck, that did not
Speaker 1: That wasn't a good puff. That was pretty much the
Speaker 1: That's pretty much the closing of the door me. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So yeah, so you can see why a lot of
Speaker 2: people wouldn't have made that decision. Yes, it's uneven for
Speaker 2: a need for belonging to that to a marriage, it's
Speaker 2: need for belonging to a whole group.
Speaker 1: Yeah people, Yeah, yeah, oh one. And it's like and also,
Speaker 1: I guess if you grow up in a religious or
Speaker 1: cultural or you know whatever cognitive parad on that says
Speaker 1: this is okay, you get married, then you don't get unmarried,
Speaker 1: and that's really hard wired into your operating system, then
Speaker 1: you just go, well, you just sold you're on. I mean,
Speaker 1: I know, I know lots of older people who like,
Speaker 1: doesn't matter that the marriage is shit. It's like not
Speaker 1: being together. That's not even a question. It's like, no,
Speaker 1: this is just how it is. It's like, we're not
Speaker 1: meant to be happy forever. So what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: How? Yeah, these core beliefs that are passed down, you know,
Speaker 2: like from wherever, whether it's your family or society or
Speaker 2: a church or you know, they're internalized when you're young,
Speaker 2: and you just then you decide, we're meant to decide
Speaker 2: whether you want to maintain those beliefs. But a lot
Speaker 2: of people don't, like you said, they don't reflect on
Speaker 2: those things. They just live their life that way and
Speaker 2: they're like, well, these are just the rules of life.
Speaker 2: It's like, well they were somebody else's rules for life.
Speaker 2: They don't actually have to be yours. But that can
Speaker 2: be a really hard thing for people to grasp if
Speaker 2: they've been living that way for so long.
Speaker 1: Well you don't. That's interesting is when you grow up
Speaker 1: in essentially you know, an echo chamber of thoughts or
Speaker 1: an echo chamber of belief or theology or whatever. You
Speaker 1: you don't know that it's not it's not the way,
Speaker 1: it's just our way. It's like, no, this is not
Speaker 1: the objective reality. This is just the reality of this
Speaker 1: group that I'm in, right. But it's like you confuse
Speaker 1: the thing that happens with your story about the thing
Speaker 1: that happens, and you don't. It's you know, when you're
Speaker 1: in the middle of something like I think Stephen Covey
Speaker 1: Seven Habits of Highly Affective People, he said, essentially, you
Speaker 1: can't be objective about the thing you're in the middle of,
Speaker 1: you know, And he was talking about business he's talked
Speaker 1: about or was that a different book, but anyway, the
Speaker 1: principle was you can't work on the e myth that
Speaker 1: was you can't work on the business and in the business.
Speaker 1: And it's like so true when you're in the middle
Speaker 1: of anything, you know, a relationship or a group or
Speaker 1: even some kind of process, and then for whatever reason,
Speaker 1: you temporarily get out of that and you're like, oh, oh,
Speaker 1: it's like I reckon if you had a bit of
Speaker 1: that when you went to India. It's like all of
Speaker 1: a sudden, you're out of your life. I mean, you're
Speaker 1: still in your life, but you're out of your routine.
Speaker 1: You're away from the gym, you're away from people, you're
Speaker 1: away from your normal environment and operating system, and now
Speaker 1: you're in a different place mentally, emotionally, and geographically, and
Speaker 1: you're like, ah, and you can see shit in India
Speaker 1: about your life in Australia that you didn't see in Australia.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like there's a level of perspective that you cannot
Speaker 1: have unless you basically get away from where you are,
Speaker 1: either literally or metaphorically.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true. Put yourself in it with new people,
Speaker 2: new circumstances.
Speaker 1: One hundred percent. That's like one of the one of
Speaker 1: my challenges now back to our seven day kickstart is
Speaker 1: basically hanging out with people who aren't like you, Like
Speaker 1: I have conversations with people who don't believe what you believe, Like,
Speaker 1: stop hanging around people who tell you you'll right right.
Speaker 2: And I also think like the message of you know,
Speaker 2: there there is on there's my way, right, there's this way.
Speaker 2: It's not just in like what we were talking about before,
Speaker 2: like in you know, particular groups or a societies or
Speaker 2: churches or whatever, Like we're fed that line a lot,
Speaker 2: like this is the way, this is the way to
Speaker 2: be healthy, this is the way to lose weight. This
Speaker 2: is it's like this is the one formula in the
Speaker 2: one way, and it's like, well, no, it's that's not true.
Speaker 2: There's lots of ways, and there's also going to be
Speaker 2: ways that work specifically for you that might not work
Speaker 2: for the next person. So there's like your personalized way
Speaker 2: as well, and understanding what that is is what's important,
Speaker 2: which is another reason why I like your seven day
Speaker 2: thing because it's giving people so many options. Yes, and
Speaker 2: because and if you can practice lots of different skills,
Speaker 2: yes and behaviors, then you get to understand, well, what
Speaker 2: are the things that work best for you and continue
Speaker 2: to do those things. And that list is going to
Speaker 2: be so different from You've got what hundreds of people
Speaker 2: doing this, and their list is going to be different.
Speaker 2: They're not going to be all doing the same thing.
Speaker 1: And you think we have thousands of people listen to
Speaker 1: this chat right now, well not right now, but when
Speaker 1: they hear it, and everyone's getting something different.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 1: But speaking of when you're saying this is the way,
Speaker 1: like in the New Testament, Jesus literally says I am
Speaker 1: the way, I am the way, the truth and the life.
Speaker 1: Nobody comes to the Father but by me. Right, So
Speaker 1: I grew up going, oh, this is it. And it's
Speaker 1: not like sorry for dumping that scripture on you everybody.
Speaker 1: But you know, like when you grow up in that
Speaker 1: echo chamber of theology and belief and Christianity in my case,
Speaker 1: or you know, Buddhism or Judaism or whatever ism you
Speaker 1: grow up in, right, you don't think, oh, this is
Speaker 1: just our philosophy but it could be wrong. You go, yeah, no,
Speaker 1: this is this is how it is because you're never
Speaker 1: presented with another option like you're And this is the
Speaker 1: beauty of conversations like this, where we are just going, look,
Speaker 1: we don't actually know how it all works. I mean,
Speaker 1: the three of us are you know, probably not stupid,
Speaker 1: let's hope, but we're still figuring it out, like you don't.
Speaker 1: You know, I'm still trying to figure out how humans work.
Speaker 1: And I'm reasonably knowledgeable and I've done a lot of shit,
Speaker 1: but there's way more that I don't know than I do,
Speaker 1: you know, and I think that being able to say, listen,
Speaker 1: this is what I've been programmed and taught and told
Speaker 1: and trained to believe. But I don't know if that's true.
Speaker 1: That's just what I've been taught and told and trained,
Speaker 1: and that's okay. But I think, like with me, it
Speaker 1: took me a very long time to not feel guilty
Speaker 1: and to not feel like a bad human for even
Speaker 1: questioning all the shit I've been programmed with.
Speaker 2: And it's not and yes, and it's not even only guilt,
Speaker 2: it's anxiety because it's very compelling to have someone say
Speaker 2: this is the certainty of life. You just do this
Speaker 2: and you'll be fine. These are the steps. People want certainty.
Speaker 2: They do, and they want control, and they want approval,
Speaker 2: and you get all of that, you know, if someone
Speaker 2: just says, follow my way, these are the right steps.
Speaker 2: Do this and this outcome will be a certainty for you.
Speaker 1: But the cost, the cost of that is you are
Speaker 1: strongly discouraged from thinking for yourself. Right, We're going to
Speaker 1: teach you what to think, not how to think, so
Speaker 1: you don't have to use your brain. Tip you're going
Speaker 1: to be in my cult, you don't even need to
Speaker 1: fucking think. You just need to comply and conform and
Speaker 1: you can be a member. But I don't want you
Speaker 1: to ask any questions because we don't have questions. Here,
Speaker 1: we just have compliance and that's pretty much the you know,
Speaker 1: and I'm making a bit of fun, but that ain't
Speaker 1: too far from the truth for most religions and virtually
Speaker 1: every cult.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's I mean, yes, And people have to make
Speaker 2: a decision about what kind of life they want. And again,
Speaker 2: if that's made with awareness, like you're conscious making a choice,
Speaker 2: you know that there are other options and ways of
Speaker 2: thinking and believing, Like you can't not know that now
Speaker 2: in our society, like forty years ago, fifty years ago,
Speaker 2: fair enough, like it's much harder to understand that there's
Speaker 2: other ways of thinking and believing. But now we're e
Speaker 2: supposed to a lot. If you have that awareness and
Speaker 2: you still choose, you know, the path that you choose,
Speaker 2: then you're doing that with conscious awareness, and you're choosing
Speaker 2: a particular kind of life. It does mean, though, that
Speaker 2: you won't have as much cognitive flexibility. You might not
Speaker 2: be able to tolerate distress as much because there, like
Speaker 2: you said, life is about uncertainty and having a lack
Speaker 2: of control. Whether you believe it is or isn't, it
Speaker 2: actually is that way, So there might be some costs
Speaker 2: to choosing whatever path you choose. But the cost of
Speaker 2: choosing a path of like uncertainty is that you will
Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable a lot. But then you just you learned
Speaker 2: skills to deal with that, and now that's what makes
Speaker 2: you resilient and empathic.
Speaker 1: And when you can become comfortable in the middle of discomfort,
Speaker 1: you're doing all right. I've got a question for both
Speaker 1: of you. Then we're going to wind up. So I'm
Speaker 1: going to start with you, Doc, and then TIF give
Speaker 1: you somethink time. So for me, there's twenty different examples
Speaker 1: of an answer to this question. But what was a
Speaker 1: belief that you had when you were younger, maybe a
Speaker 1: really strong belief that you had when you were younger
Speaker 1: that you've either done a one eighty on or you've
Speaker 1: replaced that belief with something else, or you're now unsure
Speaker 1: about that thing you used to be sure about. Is
Speaker 1: there any particular belief for you, Doc, something that was
Speaker 1: very influential or powerful on planet you when you're a
Speaker 1: kid or a young adult.
Speaker 2: I mean, something comes to mind. I mean, the first
Speaker 2: thing was a funny answer, but I'll tell you that second.
Speaker 2: The one that comes to mind is kind of I
Speaker 2: think when I was a child, I had this sense
Speaker 2: of if I, if I show I'm not allowed for
Speaker 2: people to know that I don't know something, right, Right,
Speaker 2: So I'm going to say styling, I'm going to say
Speaker 2: silent if I don't know, and I'll always raise my
Speaker 2: hand to answer a question if I do and thinking
Speaker 2: that you know, obviously. Now it's more like the most
Speaker 2: confident people are the ones that can say they don't
Speaker 2: know something.
Speaker 1: Yes, right.
Speaker 2: So yeah, So I feel like that's or a massive
Speaker 2: shift that I would have had from being, you know,
Speaker 2: a young person to now when I teach you know
Speaker 2: people over the years, whether it's a client or a
Speaker 2: student in psychology about being able to change thoughts and beliefs,
Speaker 2: the picture is Santa Claus, right, you know, like we
Speaker 2: all can change our thoughts and beliefs, with a lot
Speaker 2: of us who've grown up in the Western world believed
Speaker 2: in Santa Claus at one point in time and now
Speaker 2: we don't. Yeah, yeah, it's possible.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I have a bunch, tiff. What about you? I think.
Speaker 4: Like I used to think that you could either do
Speaker 4: something or you couldn't, and that only changed for me
Speaker 4: when I won that first fight at twenty nine and
Speaker 4: I remember the penny dropping and just going you can
Speaker 4: perceive yourself as shit at something and learn anything that
Speaker 4: you want to learn.
Speaker 3: It just it changed my world.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, great, I like that one.
Speaker 1: There's so many stories like that where people do something
Speaker 1: like the boxing was great, you want to fight, that's great.
Speaker 1: It's not even about the boxing. It's about the understanding
Speaker 1: of your own ability and self awareness and well, if
Speaker 1: I can do this, what else can I do? Like
Speaker 1: there's so many people that I trained for a half
Speaker 1: marathon or a marathon or and then the run's great,
Speaker 1: but it's like, all of a sudden, there's this massive
Speaker 1: internal shift, like with.
Speaker 4: You, yeah, especially when you go I'm the shittest at this.
Speaker 4: The whole time you think that, and then you do
Speaker 4: it anyway, and then you don't die, and then you know,
Speaker 4: in some cases you win, like you win and you go, oh,
Speaker 4: what I think about me doesn't actually matter along the way.
Speaker 1: I like that one too for me, Like this is
Speaker 1: very different. But from when I was about eight or
Speaker 1: nine and I was on the gym floor and then
Speaker 1: I started peeteeing at at twenty one twenty two, and
Speaker 1: then probably it took till I was about thirty five
Speaker 1: where I realized the food pyramid was bullshit. Some people
Speaker 1: still don't realize, by the way, but I remember maybe
Speaker 1: thirty five, even forty, I had to go, hey, everyone, yeah,
Speaker 1: got it wrong, got it wrong. You know, I know,
Speaker 1: I told you this hours wrong. Sorry, you know. And
Speaker 1: I thought that what I'd been taught and told and
Speaker 1: trained that that was the best science. And then we
Speaker 1: figured out that that's not the best science. And at
Speaker 1: some stage you've either got to double down and go
Speaker 1: all this new science is bullshit food pyramids where it's at,
Speaker 1: or you go ah, you know. And for me, it's
Speaker 1: like I really didn't want to, but I couldn't operate
Speaker 1: with integrity and keep telling people to do this thing
Speaker 1: that I knew wasn't optimal. Right. But out of that,
Speaker 1: I'm like and I didn't lose my job and I
Speaker 1: didn't lose my brand, and people didn't hate me, and
Speaker 1: people were like more interested than they were angry at me.
Speaker 1: They're like, oh, why what's I went, well, there's all
Speaker 1: this and you know, by the way, guess how they
Speaker 1: came up with a food pyramid. Guess how that got developed.
Speaker 1: Guess who funded it? Guess you know, there's all this
Speaker 1: super int story around the development of this idea that
Speaker 1: low fat eating equals low fat people, which it fucking doesn't,
Speaker 1: you know. So yeah, that for me was a revelation
Speaker 1: when I owned up to something that I was really
Speaker 1: embarrassed about. But the outcome was positive, not negative.
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean there should always be room for new
Speaker 2: knowledge and new learning and you know, and well being
Speaker 2: in psychology, especially in mental health. I mean, nothing's one
Speaker 2: hundred percent proven. Like you're always always learning and trying
Speaker 2: to keep up with the latest research to make sure
Speaker 2: that what you're saying is accurate and helpful and healthy and.
Speaker 1: Also capacity to unlearn because one of one of the
Speaker 1: problems for us humans doc is and you know this,
Speaker 1: the thing that we believe is intertwined with our identity.
Speaker 1: So if you question what I believe, or you question
Speaker 1: my philosophy, then you're questioning me and fuck you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know that's the thing where you go. I don't
Speaker 1: want to be too intertwined with any idea or any
Speaker 1: philosophy or any theology or any anything, because if I'm
Speaker 1: too if it is me and I am it, then
Speaker 1: how can I be teachable? If unless people are basically
Speaker 1: endorsing what I already think. Yeah, you know so many
Speaker 1: good questions. Hey, where can people connect with you and
Speaker 1: find you and follow you?
Speaker 2: How about you go to my website, which is doctor
Speaker 2: Lillianna dot com. That's a good spot to connect. And yeah,
Speaker 2: if you need anything or interested in any particular topic,
Speaker 2: feel free to shoot me an email. You can do
Speaker 2: that through the saite.
Speaker 1: If I ever go to bed and I'm anxious, I'm
Speaker 1: going to ring you and just get you to ring
Speaker 1: me read me a book, because.
Speaker 3: You can just listen to this podcast apps.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I keep interrupting. It's like I'm fingernails on
Speaker 1: the blackboard. She's like, she's like, I don't know, honey,
Speaker 1: just pouring off a fucking I don't know. It's just
Speaker 1: the best voice ever. Oh you're so kind, But it's true, though,
Speaker 1: you have such a good voice for this stuff.
Speaker 2: I do. I do have some Spotify stuff. If people
Speaker 2: want to relax and listen to my voice, you can
Speaker 2: go to Spotify and just put my name in. And
Speaker 2: there's some things to help you sleep or to reduce
Speaker 2: stress and anxiety. And I've just recorded three new albums,
Speaker 2: but they're not out yet.
Speaker 1: Well, may you tell me to Spotify tonight ten o'clock.
Speaker 1: You're gonna lullew me to sleep. Well, say that sounded
Speaker 1: a little bit creepy. We're gonna go to We're going
Speaker 1: to go to bed. We're going to say goodbye. Speaking
Speaker 1: of creepy, uh, you've just lost your ship over there.
Speaker 1: Take that out. Take that out.