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Speaker 1: This episode contains adult themes and references to violence. This

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Speaker 1: podcast series is brought to you by me Headley Thomas

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Speaker 1: and The Australian Aware. The IDEs of March, wrote William

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Speaker 1: Shakespeare in his play Julius Caesar. He was talking about

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Speaker 1: March fifteen, a day in the ancient Roman calendar that

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Speaker 1: is associated with misfortune and doom. It is the date

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Speaker 1: on which Roman dictator Julius Caesar was assassinated in forty

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Speaker 1: four BC. On March fifteen and sixteen, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: a confidential briefing note about the Lab was prepared for

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Speaker 1: the most senior public servant overseeing Queensland Health, a massive department.

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Speaker 1: The Commission of Inquiry, led by Walter Sofronoff, had delivered

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Speaker 1: its findings three months earlier, in December twenty twenty two.

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Speaker 1: Doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde had been the lab's interim CEO

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Speaker 1: for just two months. She was in total charge, awaiting

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Speaker 1: the government's decision to confirm her in the big role

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Speaker 1: on a permanent basis. The subject of the briefing note

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Speaker 1: to the Director General was Forensic Science Queensland Short Term

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Speaker 1: Accommodation Options. This land subject seriously downplayed the grave issues

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Speaker 1: that the briefing note actually covered. There was no shortage

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Speaker 1: of misfortune and doom about the lab and its performance

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Speaker 1: in its twenty twenty three IDEs of March briefing note.

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Speaker 1: The note was extensively referred to in doctor Kirsty Wright's

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Speaker 1: scathing report two years later. You've been hearing about it

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Speaker 1: in these episodes of Shandy's legacy. The current Attorney General

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Speaker 1: deb Frecklington's office gave us a copy of the March

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three briefing note. It has black boxes called

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Speaker 1: redactions in places which conceal people's names and positions and

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Speaker 1: some other information. A reliable source said that a senior

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Speaker 1: person in the lab wrote the briefing note and doctor

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Speaker 1: Wilson Wilde approved its contents. I have asked Lindsey about it,

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Speaker 1: she declined to comment. The start of the briefing note

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Speaker 1: accurately described what was to come. It says that since

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Wilson Wilde started in the role of CEO in

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Speaker 1: mid January twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 2: Multiple issues have been identified that present significant risks to

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Speaker 2: business as usual operations at Forensic Science Queensland. These risks

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Speaker 2: also represent a significant threat to the successful implementation of

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Speaker 2: the Commission of Inquiry recommendations and the ability to deliver

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Speaker 2: on the Premier and the Minister's public commitment to becoming

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Speaker 2: a world leading facility.

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Speaker 1: Attached to the briefing note was a sixteen page document

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Speaker 1: called current Critical Risks at Forensic Science Queensland. It identified

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Speaker 1: eight risks said to be very high or critical risks

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Speaker 1: requiring immediate attention. They included contamination risk due to the

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Speaker 1: layout of forensic biology facilities and the need for revalidation

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Speaker 1: of end to end processes in forensic biology, the capacity

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Speaker 1: and capability of existing forensic biology scientists, and the growing

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Speaker 1: back of DNA samples. The briefing Note warned that these

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Speaker 1: critical risks affected the delivery of current forensic services as

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Speaker 1: well as ongoing court matters. Let's start now with what

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Speaker 1: the document warned in relation to contamination risk.

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Speaker 2: Due to the layout of the lab's buildings, the significant

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Speaker 2: potential for contamination introduces risks to the integrity of exhibits

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Speaker 2: and therefore risks undermining the criminal justice process. In particular,

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Speaker 2: the evidence recovery function carries the highest risk for contamination

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Speaker 2: and requires sterile DNA free spaces with minimal contamination risks.

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Speaker 2: As it currently stands, the Biology Facility LAYOUP cannot support

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Speaker 2: Queensland delivering a world class forensic laboratory.

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Speaker 1: Next, the Critical Risks document identified an urgent need for

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Speaker 1: a major revalidation of all equipment, processes and systems used

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Speaker 1: in the laboratory, and according to the author, this was

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Speaker 1: because of worryingly large gaps in the scientific knowledge and

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Speaker 1: training of the staff who had already done the validations

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Speaker 1: of crucial testing equipment and processes in the lab. The

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Speaker 1: warnings in the Critical Risks document from March twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three are stark and they are very serious. Here's another

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Speaker 1: section read by a voice actor.

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Speaker 2: There is a significant risk that samples being analyzed under

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Speaker 2: current processes may not be delivering optimal outcomes or may

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Speaker 2: require re analysis in the future. Under the historical case

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Speaker 2: review process, this risk will continue until all the processes

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Speaker 2: are revalidated. The CEO is unable to assert complete confidence

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Speaker 2: in the methods utilized by forensic Biology until this work

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Speaker 2: is undertaken. This confidence is necessary to begin to rebuild

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Speaker 2: stakeholder confidence in forensic biology and in the criminal justice

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Speaker 2: system more broadly.

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Speaker 1: According to the critical risks document. The forensic biology team

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Speaker 1: fundamentally lack the capability and the capacity to implement the

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Speaker 1: recommendations from Walter Sofronoff's inquiry.

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Speaker 2: A lack of openness to change and non acceptance of

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Speaker 2: the findings of the Commission of Inquiry from some staff,

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Speaker 2: including senior staff, is impacting on recommendation implementation. There is

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Speaker 2: a need to fully retrain existing forensic biology scientists in

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Speaker 2: contemporary forensic biology techniques, including safety procedures and laboratory contamination minimization.

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Speaker 2: The level of knowledge of current forensic biologists within Forensic

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Speaker 2: Science Queensland is a significant risk that must be addressed

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Speaker 2: urgently to provide confidence that errors are not being made

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Speaker 2: with current samples and processes. The CEO is unable to

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Speaker 2: assert complete confidence in the work being undertaken by forensic

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Speaker 2: biologists until this further training is conducted. Samples currently undergoing

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Speaker 2: analysis may require re analysis in the future, and this

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Speaker 2: situation will continue until staff training is adequate to ensure

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Speaker 2: that all samples are processed in a way that meets

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Speaker 2: best practice requirements.

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Speaker 1: In contrast, doctor Kirsty Wright's report after her investigations in

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty five strongly defends the scientists. Kirsty says that

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Speaker 1: they had been following standard operating procedures and had completed

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Speaker 1: all training required by previous managers. The Sofronoff inquiry had

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Speaker 1: found that it was the procedures, the training, and the

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Speaker 1: previous managers themselves that were the problem, not the scientists.

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Speaker 1: We were shocked that the critical Risks document prepared by

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Speaker 1: the lab warned that testing being done in and around

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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty three might require a complete read do

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Speaker 1: in the future. Even more surprising was that the lab,

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Speaker 1: under what was Lindsey Wilson Wilde's relatively new management in

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Speaker 1: March twenty twenty three, did not suggest appause in operations. Instead,

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Speaker 1: it flagged the possibility of retesting in a somewhat cavalier way,

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Speaker 1: given that it would actually mean the double handling of

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Speaker 1: crime scene samples with all of the risks that would

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Speaker 1: entail in cases, many of which would have proceeded through

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Speaker 1: the criminal justice system before retesting, and the document did

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Speaker 1: not acknowledge that shonky first round testing might compromise the

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Speaker 1: samples and therefore affect the outcome of any retesting. Moving

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Speaker 1: on to testing backlogs, the Critical Risks document stated there

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Speaker 1: were thirteen thousand unreported DNA samples as at March twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three, and these were growing at a rate of

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Speaker 1: some one thousand samples a month.

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Speaker 2: The rate at which the backlog of unreported DNA samples

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Speaker 2: is growing is not sustainable. The impact that this growing

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Speaker 2: backlog is having on an already highly stressed workforce cannot

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Speaker 2: be underestimated. The inability of the Forensic Biology Laboratory to

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Speaker 2: conduct DNA analysis and provide results to the Queensland Police

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Speaker 2: Service in a timely manner poses a significant risk to

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Speaker 2: the continued detection and prevention of crime in Queensland.

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Speaker 1: In the Critical Risks document, a path forward for each

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Speaker 1: of these risks was proposed. For most of the risks,

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Speaker 1: the focus was on recruiting new staff, staff training and

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Speaker 1: cultural change. For the significant contamination risk, which was said

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Speaker 1: to arise from the layout of the facilities, the lab

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Speaker 1: wanted immediate funding to spend on consolidating lab spaces, on

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Speaker 1: construction and on buying new equipment, but it would be

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Speaker 1: a temporary fix only if approved. The document said. A

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Speaker 1: permanent solution would be building a new best practice DNA facility.

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Speaker 1: Despite the risks being stressed in this document. There was

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Speaker 1: no suggestion of stopping testing, no suggestion of ceasing to

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Speaker 1: give possibly unreliable evidence to the police and courts, or

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Speaker 1: of telling the police of the lab's concerns about the

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Speaker 1: reliability of results. This is both troubling and perplexing. Kirsty's

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Speaker 1: investigations in twenty twenty five make it clear that the

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Speaker 1: dire situation outlined in the March twenty twenty three document

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Speaker 1: demanded that drastic steps needed to be taken. Put simply,

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Speaker 1: if things were as bad as stated in that twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three document generated by Lindsey Wilson Wilde at an

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Speaker 1: early stage of her lab leadership, then the onus was

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Speaker 1: on hurt to shut the lab until it got fixed.

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Speaker 1: How could anyone rely on its science if its CEO

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Speaker 1: held such grave doubts. In her report in twenty twenty five,

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Speaker 1: Kirsty said that these things should have happened. All stakeholders

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Speaker 1: should have been told of the critical risks. All statements

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Speaker 1: which the lab scientists had prepared for court cases needed

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Speaker 1: to openly disclose what was going on, and crime samples

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Speaker 1: needed to be sent to another lab which would not

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Speaker 1: botch the testing and wouldn't compromise justice while the Queensland

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Speaker 1: Lab staff were coming to grips with it all. So

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Speaker 1: what did happen next? The briefing note recommended that the

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Speaker 1: Director General of Queensland Health note four things they were

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Speaker 1: one the current critical risks to Forensic Science Queensland as

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Speaker 1: outlined in the document. Two that the risks would be

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Speaker 1: out lined at the Forensic Science Queensland Advisory Board meeting

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Speaker 1: on March twenty eight, twenty twenty three. Three that the

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Speaker 1: risks had not been raised with Department of Justice and

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Speaker 1: Attorney General or Department of the Premier and Cabinet. And

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Speaker 1: four that the risks had not been raised with the

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Speaker 1: Minister for Health. The briefing note proposed a meeting between

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Speaker 1: we believe Lindsey Wilson Wilde and the Director General. From

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Speaker 1: our copy of the briefing note, it is clear that

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Speaker 1: someone very senior in Queensland Health considered it on March seventeen,

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. That person's name and title have been redacted,

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Speaker 1: but we assume it was the Director General to whom

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Speaker 1: the briefing note was addressed. At the time. Sean Drummond

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Speaker 1: was the Director General. He resigned suddenly from Queensland Health.

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Speaker 1: A few months later, the Director General made so written

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Speaker 1: comments in response to the briefing note. He indicated that

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Speaker 1: further information was needed. He noted these points that it

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Speaker 1: was the responsibility of the Lab CEO to work with

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Speaker 1: the system to resolve and mitigate these risks. That correspondence

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Speaker 1: from the CEO is required outlining how the risks are

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Speaker 1: being mitigated, That a meeting will be scheduled with the

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Speaker 1: CEO and another unknown person whose name and position have

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Speaker 1: been redacted, to discuss the mitigation strategies, and that until

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Speaker 1: this occurred, the paper was not approved to go to

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Speaker 1: the March twenty eight Advisory Board meeting. There were some

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Speaker 1: redactions in the Director General's comments. It has been difficult

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Speaker 1: to work out exactly what happened after this. There has

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Speaker 1: been a change of government and of course changes in staffing.

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Speaker 1: I asked doctor Kirsty Wright if she could shed any

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Speaker 1: light on it. Kirsty, did you see from your review

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Speaker 1: how that was handled by the former government? What did

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Speaker 1: they do? Is there a paper trail saying this is

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Speaker 1: a problem, better go after it.

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Speaker 3: I didn't see any evidence of what happened next do.

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Speaker 1: We know whether the March briefing note was shared with

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Speaker 1: the DNA Advisory Board.

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Speaker 4: There's no record of that in any of the minutes.

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Speaker 1: You have heard some references to the Advisory Board. The

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Speaker 1: first Commission of inquiry, the one that was led by

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Speaker 1: Walter Soffronoff, recommended setting up such a board to provide

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Speaker 1: independent expert oversight of the lab, to ensure scientific integrity

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Speaker 1: and support new management and governance arrangements. The board was

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Speaker 1: made up of people from relevant government agencies, independent scientific experts,

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Speaker 1: lawyers and victim's advocates, and it was initially chaired by

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Speaker 1: the commissioner of that first inquiry, Walter Sofronoff. Kirsty's review

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Speaker 1: team did not uncover whether the information was disclosed to

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Speaker 1: the then Attorney General Shannon Fentiman, the Department of the

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Speaker 1: Premier and Cabinet, or to the then Minister for Health,

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Speaker 1: a Vet Dath. What we do know is that a

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Speaker 1: meeting of several of the most senior public servants in

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Speaker 1: Queensland was held on March twenty eighth, twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: to talk about government reforms arising from the Sofronoff Commission

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Speaker 1: of Inquiry. Someone senior from the lab went to. This

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Speaker 1: one was a different meeting to the Advisory Board meeting

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Speaker 1: held on March twenty eight. You've written, though, that the

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Speaker 1: critical concerns that were in that March twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: briefing note were not recorded in the minutes from that meeting.

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Speaker 3: That's Correctedley and I obtained the minutes from those meetings

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Speaker 3: subsequent and there's nothing in any of the minutes in

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Speaker 3: the many months after that either.

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Speaker 1: The next day, March twenty nine, twenty twenty three, the

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Speaker 1: then Minister for Health, a Vet Darth, made a bland

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Speaker 1: and trouble free sounding ministerial statement to the Queensland Parliament

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Speaker 1: on the progress that had been made in response to

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Speaker 1: the recommendations of the Sofronoff inquiry. Here are parts of

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Speaker 1: her statement to Parliament.

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Speaker 2: Since we received the final report on thirteen December last year,

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Speaker 2: we've taken a range of immediate actions to restore faith

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Speaker 2: in our crime justice system. We have established the new

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Speaker 2: Unit Forensic Science Queensland to help us deliver the best

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Speaker 2: forensic DNA services in Australia, with the appointment of the

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Speaker 2: highly respected Professor Lindsay Wilson Wilde as CEO.

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Speaker 4: Also soft Enough.

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Speaker 2: KC and Julie Dick SC have been appointed as co

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Speaker 2: chairs of the Advisory Board for Forensic Science Queensland, and

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Speaker 2: the first meeting of the full Interim Advisory Board occurred yesterday.

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Speaker 2: Work has been ongoing regarding the correction of one two

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty witness statements which were either untruthful or misleading,

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Speaker 2: as recommended by the Interim port. As of today, five

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Speaker 2: hundred and sixty four cases have had their statements corrected.

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Speaker 2: The queens And Government made twenty nine point five million

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Speaker 2: dollars available to support further testing and analysis of samples.

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Speaker 2: We will continue to deliver on the long term vision

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Speaker 2: of establishing world class forensic DNA services and restoring the

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Speaker 2: community's faith in our criminal justice system.

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Speaker 1: There were no red flags in that statement. It sounded

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Speaker 1: like the lad was getting on with things and implementing

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Speaker 1: the inquiry's recommendations. We cannot say whether the Minister knew

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Speaker 1: at this time or subsequently about the critical risks at

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Speaker 1: the lab that had been raised in that document less

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Speaker 1: than two weeks earlier. In the chronology of what looks

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Speaker 1: like pretty shabby conduct by highly paid public servants and politicians,

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Speaker 1: we now need to jump forward six months to September

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty three. As you heard in the last episode

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Speaker 1: when we were talking about the testing of rape kits,

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Speaker 1: it was in September twenty twenty three that Forensic Science

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Speaker 1: Queensland got approval from Queensland Treasury to reallocate almost twenty

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Speaker 1: million dollars to build Forensic Science Queensland's in house capability.

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Speaker 1: That money had previously been earmarked for external DNA testing.

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Speaker 1: By this time, the started cases testing backlog had blown

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Speaker 1: out to eighteen thousand samples. September twenty twenty three is

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Speaker 1: also when the Queensland Government tabled in Parliament its first

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Speaker 1: progress report since all the recommendations from the Sofronoff inquiry

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Speaker 1: nine months earlier. This glowing report had a foreword by

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Speaker 1: Lindsey Wilson Wilde, as the chief executive Officer of the lab.

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Speaker 1: Her tone was positive and optimistic. There was not a

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Speaker 1: single mention anywhere of any of the critical risks raised

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Speaker 1: in the March briefing. Note another cover up Queensland style

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Speaker 1: appeared well advanced. Doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde did acknowledge that

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Speaker 1: the implementation of the recommendations from Walter Soffronoff's inquiry had,

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Speaker 1: as she put it, not been without its challenges, but

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Speaker 1: she said that with the resources and attitude towards change,

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Speaker 1: she genuinely believed that the Lab could become a world

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Speaker 1: leading forensic science service, and by December twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 1: when the second progress report was prepared, Lindsey said she

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Speaker 1: was unwavering in that belief. Progress reports through twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: four stated that the Lab was making significant progress on

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Speaker 1: its journey and that Lindsey was confident the lab's work

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Speaker 1: was of the highest quality. Now there was another major

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Speaker 1: event brewing in twenty twenty three. Remember the briefing note

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Speaker 1: which listed those critical risks that we talked about earlier,

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Speaker 1: was written in March of that year. But by July

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three, I was working with my colleague

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Speaker 1: David Murray on concerns which doctor Kirsty Wright had raised

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Speaker 1: with us about something very significant that she had found

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Speaker 1: in an inquiry document. We're talking again now about the

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Speaker 1: catastrophic Project thirteen, our revelations about Project thirteen, how it

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Speaker 1: was the smoking gun, the reason the lab had failed

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Speaker 1: to detect DNA in crime scene samples in Shandy's case

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Speaker 1: and countless other cases going back to two thousand and

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Speaker 1: seven led to the second Commission of Inquiry, the one

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Speaker 1: the Government very reluctantly set up in late twenty twenty three.

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Speaker 1: That inquiry, run by Annabel Bennett, a retired Federal Court judge,

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Speaker 1: states that it received an extremely large number of documents.

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Speaker 1: Most of those were produced by Queensland Health. Now pause

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Speaker 1: here to remember that the lab's March twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: briefing note was to the then Director General of Queensland Health.

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Speaker 1: We do not know whether the Bennett inquiries request for

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Speaker 1: information to the Lab, Lab, Lindsay Wilson Wild or Queensland

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Speaker 1: Health would have required the production of the March twenty

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Speaker 1: twenty three briefing note to the inquiry. We have asked

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Speaker 1: the current Attorney General's Office for copies of the Bennett

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Speaker 1: Inquiry's requests for information. They're known as notices to produce.

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Speaker 1: The focus of the inquiry was, of course on Project thirteen,

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Speaker 1: but the inquiry certainly did have an interest in the

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Speaker 1: Lab's operation and progress. In fact, the inquiry was used shamelessly,

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Speaker 1: in my view, as something of a purported showcase for

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Speaker 1: purported excellence of Lab leadership and operations. Lindsay Wilson Wilde

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Speaker 1: gave oral evidence to the inquiry over two days. She

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Speaker 1: also provided a very lengthy written statement. It is common

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Speaker 1: for an inquiry to ask a witness to cover certain

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Speaker 1: tops in a written statement, and as you would expect,

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Speaker 1: most of Lindsay's statement was concerned with the Project thirteen issues,

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Speaker 1: but she did cover the then current practices at the

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Speaker 1: LAB and the changes and reforms since she started as

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Speaker 1: CEO in January twenty twenty three, including in response to

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Speaker 1: the Soffronoff Inquiry recommendations of December the previous year. These

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Speaker 1: are her words, it's not her voice.

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Speaker 5: My priority when I commenced as CEO was to ensure

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Speaker 5: that the results that were presently being released to Queensland

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Speaker 5: Police Service and the Department of Public Prosecutions were accurate

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Speaker 5: and reliable.

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Speaker 1: But what she did not go on to say was

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Speaker 1: that in March of twenty twenty three, and we assume

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Speaker 1: for quite some time before and after this, she held

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Speaker 1: grave concerns that the lab's results were neither accurate nor reliable.

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Speaker 1: The March twenty twenty three briefing note had admitted this

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Speaker 1: and flagged the need for the possible retesting of samples

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Speaker 1: that were being processed in that year. Remember the situation

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Speaker 1: described in the briefing note read like a forensic lab's

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Speaker 1: worst nightmare, overwhelming contamination risks, a lack of confidence in

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Speaker 1: both the science and the scientists and their equipment. Along

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Speaker 1: with Lindsay Wilson Wilde's statement to the Benett inquiry, she

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Speaker 1: included a document titled Achievements to Date for Adjunct Professor

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Wilson WILDEAM since joining Forensic Science Queensland. It described

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Speaker 1: her work and changes made at the lab since her appointment.

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Speaker 5: So far, I believe that the changes we have made

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Speaker 5: at Forensic Science Queensland have resulted in substantial changes to

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Speaker 5: the mesa culture, quality, innovation and therefore the provision of

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Speaker 5: results to the justice system.

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Speaker 1: Lindsay's statement does not give any impression that the lab

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Speaker 1: was in dire trouble as had been reported in the

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Speaker 1: March briefing note. Her oral evidence under oath in the

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Speaker 1: court room in the heart of Brisbane where the inquiry

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Speaker 1: was being held with public hearings, didn't refer to the

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Speaker 1: critical risks either. She was asked about the lab's progress

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Speaker 1: in implementing recommendations from the Sovereign Off Inquiry. Here are

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Speaker 1: voice actors for the inquiry's lawyer and his witness, doctor

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Speaker 1: Wilson Wilde.

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Speaker 6: For convenience, I was going to move to the final topic.

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Speaker 6: What I wish to just invite you to inform the

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Speaker 6: Commission of is that, since your appointment, are you able

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Speaker 6: to just provide a general summary of the main steps

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Speaker 6: and actions that have taken place in terms of seeking

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Speaker 6: to implement the recommendations from the sofign Off Inquiry.

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Speaker 5: Absolutely, it would be my pleasure. When I arrived at

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Speaker 5: the laboratory in January, probably my first task was to

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Speaker 5: have a look at the processes that they were doing

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Speaker 5: currently and try to get my head around how the

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Speaker 5: processes were occurring. My primary focus was the current methods

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Speaker 5: and the results going out of the door, because we

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Speaker 5: had imminent trials and so it really was ensuring and

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Speaker 5: has been ensuring that those results are fit for purpose.

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Speaker 1: Lindsay Wilson Wilde went on to describe many of the

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Speaker 1: so called achievements under her watch at the lab. In

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Speaker 1: an earlier episode of Shandy's Legacy, my colleague and good

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Speaker 1: friend Matt Condon described this part of her evidence like this.

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Speaker 7: Lindsay Wilson while was permitted free range to explain what

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Speaker 7: the new lab was doing and how successful various areas were.

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Speaker 7: And it was a monologue which I think extended anywhere

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Speaker 7: between eight ten minutes.

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Speaker 1: The monologue continued until the Commissioner, Annabelle Bennett said.

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Speaker 8: You don't have to give me a shopping list of

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Speaker 8: absolutely everything you've done.

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Speaker 1: Those were Annabel Bennett's words, spoken by a voice actor.

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Speaker 1: Kirsty Wright's investigations in twenty twenty five found that back

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Speaker 1: in October twenty twenty three, two lab projects had identified

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Speaker 1: significant failings with DNA extraction methods being used to recover

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Speaker 1: DNA from crime scene evidence. Those methods were recovering significantly

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Speaker 1: less DNA than other methods.

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Speaker 3: The DNA Review has found that since October twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 3: Forensic Science Queensland presented unreliable DNA evidence using these methods

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Speaker 3: to the police, who then used that before the courts,

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Speaker 3: despite the awareness they had given the commencement of the

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Speaker 3: Bennett Inquiry into Projects thirteen and the reputational risks.

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Speaker 1: Kirsty's investigations found that these failings should have been immediately

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Speaker 1: communicated to police, disclosed in the reports that are used

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Speaker 1: in criminal prosecutions, and reported to the DNA Advisory Board.

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Speaker 1: The extraction methods should have stopped immediately and testing should

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Speaker 1: have been outsourced to another lab, along with any retesting

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Speaker 1: of affected evidence. We do not know whether Lindsey Wilson

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Speaker 1: wild was aware of those issues at the time of

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Speaker 1: her giving evidence to the Bennett Inquiry. Now, the second inquiry,

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Speaker 1: the one run by Annabelle Bennett, only needed to be

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Speaker 1: set up because doctor Lindsay Wilson wild had made such

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Speaker 1: a hash of things. When she was the expert witness

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Speaker 1: for the first inquiry, she had examined documents that showed

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Speaker 1: the failure of Project thirteen. Incredibly, she had failed to

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Speaker 1: tell the inquiry what those documents conveyed. That's why it

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Speaker 1: got missed. However, at the second inquiry, its head, Annabelle

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Speaker 1: Bennett said this about Lindsey Wilson Wilde, who had by

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Speaker 1: then changed her title to doctor after wrongly promoting herself

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Speaker 1: as professor for months until it was established that that

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Speaker 1: was an honorary title.

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Speaker 8: Doctor Wilson Wilde is now the Chief Executive Officer of

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Speaker 8: Forensic Science Queensland. The evidence is unequivocal that she is

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Speaker 8: performing well in that role and implementing in a staged

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Speaker 8: and managed fashion the recommendations of the First Commission of Inquiry.

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Speaker 8: The evidence supports without contradiction the work being done by

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Speaker 8: doctor Wilson Wilde to address the First Commission of Inquiry recommendations.

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Speaker 8: This includes making major changes to the cultural and work

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Speaker 8: practices of Forensic Science Queensland.

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Speaker 4: This will take some time.

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Speaker 8: There is no evidence to support concern for the ongoing

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Speaker 8: work of Forensic Science Queensland under her direction and under

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Speaker 8: the external supervision of the Interim Forensic Science Queensland Advisory

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Speaker 8: Board and of Queensland Health. There is no evidence that

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Speaker 8: would undermine public confidence in the current work of Forensic

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Speaker 8: Science Queensland.

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Speaker 1: It is impossible to reconcile the March twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: Briefing Note and Critical Risks Document with just seven months

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Speaker 1: later Lindsey Wilson Wilde's evidence to the Benett Inquiry, and

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Speaker 1: then that Inquiri's findings and the subsequent public statements about

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Speaker 1: the lab's performance. Given the seriousness and magnitude of the

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Speaker 1: issues that are raised in the March twenty twenty three

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Speaker 1: briefing note. It seems extremely unlikely, if not completely impossible,

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Speaker 1: that things could have drastically improved between March and October

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Speaker 1: of twenty twenty three. In our view, the Bennett Inquiry

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Speaker 1: did not get a faint whisper of the catastrophic concerns

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Speaker 1: raised in the March twenty twenty three briefing note, because

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Speaker 1: we cannot see how Commissioner Bennett could have reached the

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Speaker 1: conclusions you just heard if she had known about that document.

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Speaker 1: And if we're right and those issues were not raised

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Speaker 1: with the Bennett Inquiry or after it, then why not.

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Speaker 1: It does seem extraordinary that such important issues with serious

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Speaker 1: consequences would be raised so candidly in March twenty twenty

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Speaker 1: three and then appear not to have been spoken of since,

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Speaker 1: at least publicly. In my view, relevant documents were withheld.

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Speaker 1: It looks like a cover up. You might remember comments

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Speaker 1: by the then Queensland Health Minister Shannon Fenterman when she

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Speaker 1: spoke about the Bennett Inquiry's findings in a press conference

439
00:31:59,360 --> 00:32:01,360
Speaker 1: in November twenty twenty three.

440
00:32:02,600 --> 00:32:06,240
Speaker 9: Importantly, Commissioner Bennett also found that there was no evidence

441
00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:09,760
Speaker 9: that the public should not have confidence in the Lab

442
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:13,000
Speaker 9: and the work that is happening there now. I do

443
00:32:13,080 --> 00:32:15,560
Speaker 9: believe that Queenslanders should continue to have faith in the

444
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:18,520
Speaker 9: LAB and have faith in our criminal justice process, and

445
00:32:18,560 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 9: I think that's what this commission has found. I think now,

446
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 9: given that the Commissioner Bennett has found that there is

447
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 9: a lot of great work being done, I think we've

448
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:29,240
Speaker 9: now got to all move on.

449
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:36,280
Speaker 1: Shannon Fenderman's comments were clearly based on the Bennett Inquiry's findings.

450
00:32:36,920 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 1: With all that has happened since, Shannon Fentamen is unlikely

451
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:45,320
Speaker 1: to be proud of these things. Now. We have invited

452
00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:49,760
Speaker 1: Shannon Fentmen, who remains in State Parliament as a member,

453
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: as well as her predecessor, Avet Darth, who has retired

454
00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:58,760
Speaker 1: from politics, to explain to us what happened. If they

455
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:03,360
Speaker 1: take up this offer, will include it in a future episode.

456
00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:05,640
Speaker 1: Your view though, as a result of that March twenty

457
00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:08,200
Speaker 1: twenty three briefing note was that the LAB should have

458
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,880
Speaker 1: immediately ceased testing DNA evidence and told everyone what.

459
00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 3: Was going on, oh, without question, as the number one priority,

460
00:33:14,680 --> 00:33:15,920
Speaker 3: they should have stopped immediately.

461
00:33:16,480 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: That didn't occur.

462
00:33:17,400 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 3: No, that didn't occur, and the courts and the police

463
00:33:20,640 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 3: weren't informed of these critical risks, and they were clear

464
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:30,280
Speaker 3: what the ramifications and risks were and public safety concern

465
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:30,920
Speaker 3: like they knew.

466
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:37,040
Speaker 1: And within months we get this Commission of Inquiry that

467
00:33:37,680 --> 00:33:43,360
Speaker 1: glosses over all of the problems that the then director,

468
00:33:43,440 --> 00:33:48,240
Speaker 1: Lindsay Wilson Wilde, appears before, gives evidence under oath, and

469
00:33:48,720 --> 00:33:52,240
Speaker 1: purports to that inquiry that everything in the lab is

470
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:56,760
Speaker 1: going swimmingly despite enormous challenges that she's inherited. There's no

471
00:33:56,840 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: indication of any of this current life disaster.

472
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:05,120
Speaker 3: No, and that's completely opposite to the documents that the

473
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:11,360
Speaker 3: DNA review found showing that there was systemic contamination, unreliable results,

474
00:34:11,800 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 3: and there was significant risks of incorrect judicial outcomes because

475
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:41,640
Speaker 3: the lab was knowingly releasing unreliable results.

476
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: On a breezy afternoon in late twenty twenty five, Mick

477
00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,799
Speaker 1: Fuller has driven from the High Security Forensic Lab to

478
00:34:51,880 --> 00:34:56,160
Speaker 1: our meeting place, a hillside overlooking a belt of green

479
00:34:56,320 --> 00:35:00,279
Speaker 1: in the leafy western suburb of Brisbane. There's a to

480
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 1: talk about over an outdoor table, amid chattering cockatoos and

481
00:35:04,920 --> 00:35:09,560
Speaker 1: nearby hackers wielding big sticks. Welcome to the Saint Lucia

482
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:10,520
Speaker 1: Public Golf Course.

483
00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:11,600
Speaker 4: It's good to see you again.

484
00:35:12,840 --> 00:35:16,600
Speaker 1: As the new chief executive officer of the lab, the

485
00:35:16,640 --> 00:35:20,040
Speaker 1: former Police Commissioner for New South Wales is trying to

486
00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:25,800
Speaker 1: reverse major failures affecting the criminal justice system. Mick Fuller

487
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:29,400
Speaker 1: has come alone to the interview. There isn't a government

488
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:34,640
Speaker 1: media and communications manager insight. He isn't trying to paint

489
00:35:34,680 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 1: a rosy picture. That would be a tall order. He

490
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,440
Speaker 1: is candid and direct about the good, the bad and

491
00:35:42,480 --> 00:35:46,239
Speaker 1: the ugly. He is also relishing the opportunity to make

492
00:35:46,280 --> 00:35:51,360
Speaker 1: a profound difference. What did you know about Queensland's DNA

493
00:35:51,560 --> 00:35:57,360
Speaker 1: testing laboratory before you came and given the due diligence

494
00:35:57,360 --> 00:35:59,399
Speaker 1: you've asked have done before you took the job, why

495
00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,880
Speaker 1: didn't you run a way and say anything but this.

496
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,719
Speaker 10: One of the great challenges in being happy with work

497
00:36:05,840 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 10: is a job where you have a sense of purpose. Now,

498
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,560
Speaker 10: after five years of being the Commissioner, retiring in early

499
00:36:11,760 --> 00:36:14,879
Speaker 10: twenty twenty two, I've had some great jobs, but they

500
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 10: don't all come with a sense of purpose.

501
00:36:17,080 --> 00:36:20,040
Speaker 4: That was something that was missing in my life.

502
00:36:20,560 --> 00:36:22,400
Speaker 10: My wife had suggested to me that I was too

503
00:36:22,480 --> 00:36:25,959
Speaker 10: young to retire and honestly, within ten minutes of having

504
00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:29,440
Speaker 10: that conversation, the phone call came from Queensland. Did I

505
00:36:29,520 --> 00:36:32,319
Speaker 10: know anyone that would be interested and would have the

506
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 10: ability to come in to really right the wrongs of

507
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,800
Speaker 10: the last ten years. This will make it profound different

508
00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 10: people's lives. Hence why I'm interested in It's about being

509
00:36:44,120 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 10: the right person for the time. My background is very regimented.

510
00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:55,280
Speaker 10: It's structure, it's accountability, it's reporting, it's statistics, it's data,

511
00:36:56,000 --> 00:36:58,680
Speaker 10: and the lab doesn't have any of that. And so

512
00:36:58,840 --> 00:37:02,640
Speaker 10: people will say, well, how will we know if the

513
00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:06,800
Speaker 10: scientists in the labs have stopped picking up DNA profiles

514
00:37:06,840 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 10: from blood.

515
00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:08,640
Speaker 4: Which you should get every time.

516
00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 10: Well, the answer to that is technology, and I'll be

517
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,920
Speaker 10: moving quickly to make sure that we are pulling all

518
00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,040
Speaker 10: the data we can from the forensic register that will

519
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:22,279
Speaker 10: help pinpoint any problems at that front end where at

520
00:37:22,280 --> 00:37:25,000
Speaker 10: the moment, all this systems are manual, and it could

521
00:37:25,000 --> 00:37:27,480
Speaker 10: be a training issue, right, it could be an issue

522
00:37:27,520 --> 00:37:30,520
Speaker 10: with the robot malfunctioning, But the cost of getting that

523
00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:34,960
Speaker 10: wrong is the next victim of asexual assault or potentially homicide.

524
00:37:36,320 --> 00:37:41,359
Speaker 1: Purpose public duty, the themes arose in his interview with

525
00:37:41,440 --> 00:37:45,719
Speaker 1: Sky News anchor Laura Jays after Mick Fuller was acknowledged

526
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: for his leadership as the top cop.

527
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:58,359
Speaker 11: After a decade as New South Wales Police Commissioner, Mick

528
00:37:58,400 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 11: Fuller has been awarded an Order of Australia for his

529
00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 11: distinguished service as Police Commissioner and for criminal Intelligence Governance

530
00:38:07,920 --> 00:38:12,760
Speaker 11: whils also advocating against domestic violence and alcohol related crime.

531
00:38:13,280 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 11: He joins me live now to be.

532
00:38:15,440 --> 00:38:18,400
Speaker 10: Recognized for doing something I love for thirty four years.

533
00:38:18,719 --> 00:38:20,240
Speaker 4: Very proud Australian today.

534
00:38:20,760 --> 00:38:23,480
Speaker 11: How do you reflect on your years of service?

535
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:25,560
Speaker 4: Such a wonderful career.

536
00:38:26,120 --> 00:38:28,960
Speaker 10: It's been the most amazing adventure for myself and my

537
00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:32,840
Speaker 10: family and it is so exciting and continues today.

538
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:37,920
Speaker 11: There is such personal gain from giving back to the community.

539
00:38:38,760 --> 00:38:39,520
Speaker 8: Enjoy the day.

540
00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,120
Speaker 11: Recognize this award for what it is a very big honor.

541
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,360
Speaker 11: Congratulations Meet Fuller.

542
00:38:46,760 --> 00:38:51,160
Speaker 1: Two years later, he has his hands completely full trying

543
00:38:51,160 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 1: to fix the lab after stepping into the shoes of

544
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: doctor Lindsey Wilson Wilde. She became the CEO after Walter

545
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:02,959
Speaker 1: Soffronoff's inquiry and she lasted until June twenty twenty five,

546
00:39:03,080 --> 00:39:06,280
Speaker 1: when she was abruptly stood down by the new government.

547
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 1: Listeners of The Teacher's pet from twenty eighteen will recall

548
00:39:11,600 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 1: Mick Fuller as the police commissioner who made a bold

549
00:39:15,000 --> 00:39:18,759
Speaker 1: decision back then to harness the power of that podcast

550
00:39:18,840 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 1: series in a positive way. His decision meant that police

551
00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: got more important information which went into the brief of

552
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:31,040
Speaker 1: evidence against Chris Dawson, who was ultimately found guilty in

553
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 1: twenty twenty two of his wife Lynn's murder. Mickfuller's strategy

554
00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:39,719
Speaker 1: also helped repair the damage that had been done to

555
00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:42,880
Speaker 1: the brand of New South Wales police for years of

556
00:39:42,960 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 1: failure in Lynn's case. But some judges who became involved

557
00:39:47,960 --> 00:39:51,560
Speaker 1: when Chris Dawson and his lawyers argued that he could

558
00:39:51,600 --> 00:39:54,919
Speaker 1: not get a fair trial because of the podcast, were

559
00:39:55,040 --> 00:40:00,239
Speaker 1: disapproving of Mickfuller. In my view, those judges were out

560
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: of touch. The then police chief took a pragmatic and

561
00:40:05,239 --> 00:40:10,120
Speaker 1: victim focused approach. It should be done more often. He

562
00:40:10,239 --> 00:40:14,280
Speaker 1: used the power of the podcast to help police deliver justice.

563
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:16,279
Speaker 1: After four decades.

564
00:40:16,719 --> 00:40:20,160
Speaker 10: You go into those big events with the higher purpose

565
00:40:20,239 --> 00:40:24,160
Speaker 10: about who's really important here and Lynn and family in

566
00:40:24,200 --> 00:40:27,600
Speaker 10: the community, austrained community was so far behind that case.

567
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 10: I was criticized by the judiciary, and there was probably

568
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 10: police who were unhappy with me.

569
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,120
Speaker 1: Nick. I formed the view then that you were a

570
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:42,040
Speaker 1: bit unusual as a senior public servant, as a police commissioner,

571
00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,880
Speaker 1: A bit unusual in that you weren't prepared to just

572
00:40:44,960 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 1: take the safe pathway, which would have probably meant avoiding

573
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:52,839
Speaker 1: me and avoiding the podcast. You were prepared to take

574
00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: a risk, even against a bit of internal opposition. Is

575
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:02,000
Speaker 1: that part of your ethos? Is that part of your character.

576
00:41:02,880 --> 00:41:05,800
Speaker 4: Taking risks is part of being the boss.

577
00:41:05,840 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 10: I mean, they should be calculated risks, they should be

578
00:41:08,280 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 10: well thought out. I think in life there are gambles

579
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:15,160
Speaker 10: in terms of the risks that you do take.

580
00:41:15,239 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 4: But I felt in this case it was a worthwhile

581
00:41:17,520 --> 00:41:18,320
Speaker 4: one if.

582
00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,840
Speaker 10: You think about the power of just the people that

583
00:41:20,920 --> 00:41:25,200
Speaker 10: were listening, and the ability for you to build trust

584
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 10: with people that perhaps don't naturally trust police, new witnesses

585
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:34,120
Speaker 10: or pieces of information that we would never have got

586
00:41:34,200 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 10: access to, no matter.

587
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:39,200
Speaker 4: How big the reward was. I ran an organization with a.

588
00:41:39,200 --> 00:41:42,600
Speaker 10: Four point two billion dollar budget, twenty one thousand staff,

589
00:41:43,080 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 10: eight million customers across the state of New South Wales.

590
00:41:46,920 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 10: I'm not a scientist right, but if you think about

591
00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:52,560
Speaker 10: what forensic science Queensland should stand for, and that is

592
00:41:52,560 --> 00:41:57,160
Speaker 10: protecting the victims of Queensland. It is working with Queensland Police,

593
00:41:57,680 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 10: Queensland dppery, the Queensland and Justice system. They're all things

594
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:05,440
Speaker 10: that I dealt with every day. He as not just

595
00:42:05,480 --> 00:42:08,200
Speaker 10: the Commissioner or police but as a police officer.

596
00:42:08,960 --> 00:42:12,120
Speaker 4: The danger is me pretending that I'm a scientist.

597
00:42:13,440 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 1: Mick Fuller won't be peering into the microscopes in the

598
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,480
Speaker 1: lab on Brisbane's South Side, nor will he give scientific

599
00:42:21,520 --> 00:42:26,360
Speaker 1: reports about an offender's DNA, but he is determined to

600
00:42:26,440 --> 00:42:30,839
Speaker 1: grow his knowledge of the scientific techniques to better appreciate

601
00:42:31,000 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 1: how things can be improved.

602
00:42:33,600 --> 00:42:37,320
Speaker 10: I need to understand the principle of how it works

603
00:42:37,480 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 10: better every day and I do. I invest, I ask

604
00:42:39,560 --> 00:42:41,520
Speaker 10: questions and I'm writing stuff down.

605
00:42:42,280 --> 00:42:46,160
Speaker 1: And how the executive decisions that he can make will

606
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,600
Speaker 1: ensure the systems and staff are more effective.

607
00:42:50,840 --> 00:42:53,879
Speaker 4: People talk about changing culture like you change your meal order.

608
00:42:54,040 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 10: It's a big deal and it takes time, over years

609
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,120
Speaker 10: to really change the culture in the place, and unfortunately

610
00:42:59,480 --> 00:43:03,160
Speaker 10: it involves changing people. I think there will be people

611
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:05,880
Speaker 10: in time who won't want to come on the journey

612
00:43:06,080 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 10: of transparency and accountability, and I think there's others that

613
00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:10,880
Speaker 10: will flourish.

614
00:43:10,560 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 4: In that environment.

615
00:43:11,920 --> 00:43:15,759
Speaker 10: As exciting time to be coming to forensic science Queensland

616
00:43:15,800 --> 00:43:17,960
Speaker 10: and you could be on the ground and be part

617
00:43:18,000 --> 00:43:21,759
Speaker 10: of one of the biggest restructures and positive changes in

618
00:43:22,040 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 10: Queensland government history.

619
00:43:23,760 --> 00:43:25,920
Speaker 1: When you were the commissioner at Police in New South

620
00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:29,520
Speaker 1: Wales and in the years before you took on that

621
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:34,320
Speaker 1: top job, you would have seen the evolution of DNA

622
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,920
Speaker 1: to being the almost secret source the magic that can

623
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:45,359
Speaker 1: soolve so many unsolved crimes and more than perhaps any

624
00:43:45,440 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 1: other piece of evidence has been considered above reproach absolutely head.

625
00:43:50,960 --> 00:43:54,320
Speaker 4: When I started, it was fingerprints, without a doubt.

626
00:43:54,880 --> 00:43:59,960
Speaker 10: DNA was this science that was infallible when you used properly.

627
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:03,560
Speaker 10: It certainly is the most powerful tool we've ever seen

628
00:44:03,600 --> 00:44:04,839
Speaker 10: in the justice system.

629
00:44:05,000 --> 00:44:10,360
Speaker 1: And yet we've learned that DNA in Queensland has failed

630
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 1: many victims of crime and has failed the criminal justice system.

631
00:44:15,120 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 10: What is unbelievable in this case is it's almost a

632
00:44:18,880 --> 00:44:23,439
Speaker 10: decade of disasters back to back. At no point has

633
00:44:23,600 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 10: someone drawn a line in the sand to say this

634
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 10: is never going to happen again and at no cost

635
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 10: should The other thing that was sort of shocking to

636
00:44:33,560 --> 00:44:38,360
Speaker 10: me headly is I didn't feel as though anyone that

637
00:44:38,480 --> 00:44:42,719
Speaker 10: Forensic Science Queensland had ever owned it. I never apologized

638
00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:46,920
Speaker 10: to the victims of Queensland for the state that the

639
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 10: lab was left in.

640
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 4: I need to own this going forward.

641
00:44:50,320 --> 00:44:53,799
Speaker 10: Heavenly, I need to own every aspect of it if

642
00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,480
Speaker 10: I'm to get any sense of trust back in the labs,

643
00:44:57,520 --> 00:45:00,720
Speaker 10: not just from victims, from the community, from the media,

644
00:45:00,800 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 10: from the courts, from the cops and the DPP, but

645
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:06,400
Speaker 10: it needs to have proper governance in place. The structure

646
00:45:06,520 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 10: needs to recognize the task at hand. Training needs to

647
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:15,880
Speaker 10: be done mandatorily. Policy documents need to be updated every year.

648
00:45:16,280 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 10: Quality assurance has to become one of the most important

649
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:22,880
Speaker 10: things that's embedded everything that we do. It's the business

650
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:25,880
Speaker 10: that is broken that allowed the lad to do what

651
00:45:26,000 --> 00:45:30,480
Speaker 10: it is today. My business skills will be essential in

652
00:45:30,520 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 10: getting the business.

653
00:45:31,600 --> 00:45:34,480
Speaker 4: Right that will hold the labs to account.

654
00:45:34,840 --> 00:45:37,200
Speaker 10: And I think that's the bit that we have gotten

655
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,520
Speaker 10: wrong in the past, is that we've focused on this

656
00:45:39,640 --> 00:45:42,800
Speaker 10: science experiment while the business is failing.

657
00:45:42,840 --> 00:45:44,080
Speaker 4: Every aspect of it.

658
00:45:44,160 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 10: The brand is damaged, but not everyone who works there

659
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:50,239
Speaker 10: is damaged. There are amazing things happening out there every

660
00:45:50,320 --> 00:45:54,000
Speaker 10: day that unfortunately have been lost in the DNA debarkle.

661
00:45:54,480 --> 00:45:58,440
Speaker 1: What a fantastic opportunity for you to say to your

662
00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:01,400
Speaker 1: counterparts of the police, we think we've got him.

663
00:46:02,000 --> 00:46:03,320
Speaker 4: It is a great feeling.

664
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:07,120
Speaker 10: At the same time, scientists that are doing that work,

665
00:46:07,280 --> 00:46:12,400
Speaker 10: they should celebrate those successes as well. Police, particularly now

666
00:46:12,520 --> 00:46:15,279
Speaker 10: collect a lot more evidence trying to solve crimes, which

667
00:46:15,320 --> 00:46:18,680
Speaker 10: is their job, that does create backlogs.

668
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:22,440
Speaker 1: And what we learned from the investigations that were done

669
00:46:23,000 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: back in twenty twenty two was that the backlog was

670
00:46:28,040 --> 00:46:33,760
Speaker 1: addressed by taking shortcuts, by changing thresholds so that fewer

671
00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:37,560
Speaker 1: crimes were been detected. The direct result of that was

672
00:46:37,600 --> 00:46:42,000
Speaker 1: that offenders who should have been grabbed were never even identifying.

673
00:46:42,440 --> 00:46:44,759
Speaker 10: I think one of the problems is that the backlogs

674
00:46:44,760 --> 00:46:48,840
Speaker 10: got so large that cutting corners was their only.

675
00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 4: Option, but that was the worst option.

676
00:46:51,760 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 10: I will need the government support in outsourcing for some

677
00:46:55,000 --> 00:46:55,640
Speaker 10: years to come.

678
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:59,600
Speaker 4: My language and my actions is not about cutting corners.

679
00:47:00,920 --> 00:47:05,239
Speaker 1: Mick Fuller is adamant that the lab cannot compromise on

680
00:47:05,360 --> 00:47:10,719
Speaker 1: its performance or its integrity again. Otherwise, he told me

681
00:47:11,120 --> 00:47:14,600
Speaker 1: its reputation will be so shot that it might have

682
00:47:14,640 --> 00:47:18,080
Speaker 1: to close its doors and outsource all testing.

683
00:47:18,920 --> 00:47:22,480
Speaker 10: The consequences of getting this wrong is unbelievably huge in

684
00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 10: the justice system. There are lots of smart people there

685
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:28,200
Speaker 10: who want to work hard and who want to do

686
00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:31,520
Speaker 10: the right thing, who I would say ultimately will let

687
00:47:31,520 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 10: down by leadership.

688
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,759
Speaker 1: I asked Mick Fuller about the plight facing alleged rape

689
00:47:37,840 --> 00:47:42,080
Speaker 1: victims like Magda from whom you heard in the previous episode.

690
00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:48,279
Speaker 1: Can you just clarify where your case is as you

691
00:47:48,360 --> 00:47:52,520
Speaker 1: understand it from what you have been told, Hadley.

692
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:55,319
Speaker 12: I think that's one of the challenges here. I can't

693
00:47:55,400 --> 00:47:59,880
Speaker 12: actually clarify because when I speak to the officer in charge,

694
00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 12: he himself doesn't know. There's just still no results, that

695
00:48:03,680 --> 00:48:06,719
Speaker 12: is the answer. So I want to know where is

696
00:48:06,760 --> 00:48:09,120
Speaker 12: my case. Is it in the started case, is it

697
00:48:09,160 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 12: in the not yet started? So I don't know if

698
00:48:11,440 --> 00:48:14,000
Speaker 12: it's in a queue, I don't know if it's shelved.

699
00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 12: And I think that's what brings even more distress to this,

700
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 12: because there's just no end in sight as to when

701
00:48:22,400 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 12: this is going to come to an end.

702
00:48:26,360 --> 00:48:31,439
Speaker 1: A victim of crime who has no idea even after

703
00:48:31,600 --> 00:48:37,239
Speaker 1: eighteen months of waiting a test result, why can't that

704
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 1: victim of crime have a better sense of what's going

705
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:41,200
Speaker 1: on within the lab.

706
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,839
Speaker 10: One of the government's commitments with the fifty million dollars

707
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,080
Speaker 10: in outsourcing is to get the backlogged around those sexual

708
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:48,120
Speaker 10: assault kits sorting.

709
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 1: How do you prioritize, how do you work out which

710
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:54,160
Speaker 1: ones go to the front of the queue.

711
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:57,960
Speaker 10: That really comes down to police in the first instance,

712
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:00,960
Speaker 10: because they're trying to solve crime ones and keep the

713
00:49:01,000 --> 00:49:04,439
Speaker 10: next victim safe. I want to move away from us

714
00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 10: being as decision maker in the process.

715
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,320
Speaker 4: You've got smart police, you've got smart lawyers.

716
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:13,080
Speaker 10: I talk to police every other day, I talk to

717
00:49:13,120 --> 00:49:16,400
Speaker 10: the DPP every week, and we're in contact with the court.

718
00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:20,520
Speaker 10: We should providing a service with infallible evidence that proves

719
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:21,640
Speaker 10: or disproves something.

720
00:49:23,080 --> 00:49:27,440
Speaker 1: Mick Fuller wants an online service which gives up to

721
00:49:27,520 --> 00:49:32,719
Speaker 1: date information about cases and samples. As we all know,

722
00:49:33,200 --> 00:49:36,799
Speaker 1: you can send a gift via Australia Post or make

723
00:49:36,840 --> 00:49:40,160
Speaker 1: an online order for a book, and each stage of

724
00:49:40,200 --> 00:49:45,280
Speaker 1: the process is logged and trackable online. On the other hand,

725
00:49:45,480 --> 00:49:49,080
Speaker 1: you can be raped and you can submit a biological

726
00:49:49,160 --> 00:49:52,680
Speaker 1: sample and then be kept in the dark for a

727
00:49:52,760 --> 00:49:56,000
Speaker 1: year and a half and longer about what is happening

728
00:49:56,040 --> 00:49:59,920
Speaker 1: with crucial evidence in an attack that has fundamentally changed

729
00:50:00,120 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: your life.

730
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:05,759
Speaker 10: When you talk about sexual assaults, the victims need so

731
00:50:05,840 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 10: much courage to come forward in what is a difficult

732
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:12,400
Speaker 10: journey for them. We're not helping in that journey in

733
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,360
Speaker 10: waiting years for someone to have their day in court.

734
00:50:15,840 --> 00:50:18,440
Speaker 10: I think that's a real loss to public safety and Queensland.

735
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,400
Speaker 1: Is there a risk that there will be the identification

736
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:27,200
Speaker 1: of so many more offenders that Queensland's criminal justice system

737
00:50:27,239 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 1: will come under stress in terms of processing prosecuting these

738
00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:32,760
Speaker 1: alleged defenders.

739
00:50:33,000 --> 00:50:35,080
Speaker 10: It would be a nice problem to have, to be

740
00:50:35,120 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 10: honest with you, If we are producing evidence that is

741
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 10: solving crimes and putting people in custody because they're dangerous individuals,

742
00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:46,680
Speaker 10: that's a much better outcome for the people of Queen's Lane.

743
00:50:47,160 --> 00:50:48,640
Speaker 4: And is there a cost to that?

744
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 6: There?

745
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:51,200
Speaker 10: Probably is, helly, but I hate to think what the

746
00:50:51,239 --> 00:50:53,759
Speaker 10: cost is of getting it wrong for a decade.

747
00:50:54,200 --> 00:50:57,960
Speaker 1: How much time are you prepared to give to this journey.

748
00:50:58,440 --> 00:51:01,279
Speaker 10: I have time on my hand, but I'm not here

749
00:51:01,280 --> 00:51:03,879
Speaker 10: to drag this out either. I need a big jump

750
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 10: forward in twelve months to have new robotics in place,

751
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:13,720
Speaker 10: properly validated scientists that understand the business transparency measures in place.

752
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:16,560
Speaker 10: I need to be reporting stuff on our website in

753
00:51:16,640 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 10: terms of the backlogs and our performance.

754
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,000
Speaker 4: So there's a lot to be done in the next

755
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 4: twelve months.

756
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 10: I've given them a promise that I've made a commitment

757
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,040
Speaker 10: to stay and help them be a world class lab,

758
00:51:28,200 --> 00:51:31,719
Speaker 10: which it should be, and really grab this thing by

759
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 10: the horns and make the changes that probably should have

760
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:41,760
Speaker 10: been made a decade ago.

761
00:51:42,200 --> 00:51:46,359
Speaker 1: This episode of Shandy's Legacy was investigated and written by

762
00:51:46,440 --> 00:51:51,279
Speaker 1: me Headley Thomas and Karina Berger. Audio production for this

763
00:51:51,360 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: podcast series is by Wasabi Audio and original theme music

764
00:51:56,640 --> 00:52:00,759
Speaker 1: by Slade Gibson. This podcast series is brought to you

765
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 1: by me Headley Thomas and the Australian newspaper and digital side.

766
00:52:05,960 --> 00:52:10,440
Speaker 1: Visit Shandy dot com dot au that's s H A

767
00:52:10,960 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: N d e E dot com dot Au for additional

768
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:21,400
Speaker 1: documentary material. Anyone with information about the murder of Shandy

769
00:52:21,440 --> 00:52:25,880
Speaker 1: Blackburn can contact me confidentially by email by going to

770
00:52:26,040 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 1: Shandy dot com, dot au