Speaker 1: I get a tam it's a you project, It's Jumbo,
Speaker 1: It's Fatty Harps, It's Craig Anthony Harperrids, Tiffany and Cook,
Speaker 1: It's Robert, Robert, Robert. What's your middle name again? What's
Speaker 1: his middle name? Roberts? Do you have a middle name,
Speaker 1: Bobby does? It's Joseph Joseph. Of course I knew that. Robert,
Speaker 1: Joseph Capuccio, Tiffany and Cook, tiff What are you looking
Speaker 1: like that? Did your dog just break into your studio
Speaker 1: the door?
Speaker 2: Did you slide a jar? And I'm like, if that
Speaker 2: is bere we are in for a ride.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, Well, there's no animal that's going to break
Speaker 1: into my studio because I'm animal less, but I could
Speaker 1: be animal full by about February or March, depending on
Speaker 1: the outcome of my PhD and the timing with that.
Speaker 1: And you did send me a photograph of a dog,
Speaker 1: tiff that's the most terrifying fucking canine I've ever laid eyes.
Speaker 2: On, but so weirdly beautiful, captivating, even kind.
Speaker 1: Of look like an old leather boot that was three
Speaker 1: foot high. A Mexican can hairless. Is that what it's called?
Speaker 2: Yes? Yes, I'm trying to google the pronunciation of the
Speaker 2: breed because the word itself to read is yeah.
Speaker 1: Because which sounds like a cat more than a dog,
Speaker 1: and it's it's bobby. You should see this dog. It's
Speaker 1: like the size of a labrador or bigger, but it's
Speaker 1: got zero hair, and it looks like maybe like the
Speaker 1: size of a big greyhound. Well it looks it's.
Speaker 2: Kind of yeah, it's kind of like a maybe a
Speaker 2: Doberman size.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's big, and it looks like it's made of leather.
Speaker 2: So it's pronounced queen tlea sholder.
Speaker 1: Sorry say that again.
Speaker 2: Show lo eats queen tea, which is spelled x O
Speaker 2: l o I t z c u I n t
Speaker 2: l I. No one in the world could possibly look
Speaker 2: at that word and pronounce that correctly, unless maybe they
Speaker 2: were Mexican.
Speaker 1: I'm yeah, or I bet somebody could. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: weird looking dog. What was it like in that that
Speaker 1: kind of like I was a bit intrigued and a
Speaker 1: bit repelled and a bit curious what it's like. Kind
Speaker 1: of ugly but almost beautiful. Ugly.
Speaker 2: Look. I just saw it from a distance and it
Speaker 2: looked like an old like one of those statues that
Speaker 2: sits on the pillars of an old castle. It looked
Speaker 2: like that had come alive out of stone and just
Speaker 2: strolled on into sin Kilda. And they've got a really
Speaker 2: beautiful temperament. They look like they would be kind of
Speaker 2: an aggressive fighting dog. It's beautiful.
Speaker 3: I would imagine they would be. They're probably called all
Speaker 3: the time that would piss me off.
Speaker 1: Yes, I had a.
Speaker 3: Friend of mine. I had a friend of mine who
Speaker 3: she used to breed hairless sphinx and I went to
Speaker 3: replace one night and there were five of them, and
Speaker 3: they had these weird jumpers on because they get quite cold,
Speaker 3: and it's just like a bunch of house cats and jumpers.
Speaker 3: So already it's like, oh, this is what people talk
Speaker 3: about when they talk about like a really bad acid trip.
Speaker 3: This must be exactly.
Speaker 1: Like Wow, wow, I imagine hayless cat in a jumper.
Speaker 1: You'd already have enough is shoes, having no hair when
Speaker 1: all the other fucking cats have got here, and then
Speaker 1: I just jump.
Speaker 3: It was like little turtlenecks they were all running around in.
Speaker 3: And they turned out to be, like most cats, highly
Speaker 3: intelligent and so interactive and affectionate. Two of them climbed
Speaker 3: me at the same time, at the same exact pace,
Speaker 3: and both started licking each side of my head.
Speaker 1: Wow, which we are we still having the same chat?
Speaker 1: Are we talking about your box? Not? Because I think
Speaker 1: those stories are interchangeable. Oh that's great, That's just great.
Speaker 4: Welcome, Welcome to the show, everybody, And if it's the
Speaker 4: three of you who are still here, we'll try and
Speaker 4: regale you with some stories and some potentially something of
Speaker 4: value that might help you, I don't know, do something positive.
Speaker 1: With your life, or your time or your energy. TIF
Speaker 1: what have you been up to this morning? Anytime?
Speaker 2: Oh, anytime, anytime. I've been out and about a lot lately.
Speaker 2: So this morning I tried to have a sleep and
Speaker 2: I slept into a whopping six am, which is quite
Speaker 2: quite a profound sleeping for me as of late. Been
Speaker 2: enjoying the sun, eating cookies obviously, and catching up on.
Speaker 1: Work, all the basics. Vital Well, Now, Fatty Harps is
Speaker 1: on the home straight. I feel like I've been saying
Speaker 1: that for fucking three years, but I'm actually on the
Speaker 1: home of my PhD, my timeline, my candi. That you
Speaker 1: finishes January sixteenth, so like it or not, it's coming
Speaker 1: to an end, so there's absolutely no pressure with any
Speaker 1: of that. And great sleep, great sleep. No, I'm actually
Speaker 1: sleeping all right.
Speaker 2: But I see the imprint of a birthday hat on
Speaker 2: your head somewhere today, Can I see that? Oh? Wow?
Speaker 1: I went and saw I went and saw Mary Harper.
Speaker 1: And the old Da was eighty six yesterday, December three,
Speaker 1: the year of our Lord, nineteen thirty nine, and o
Speaker 1: domini she was now an interesting story. I don't know
Speaker 1: if if you do bump into my mum anyone, don't
Speaker 1: mention this because it's not the it's not the most
Speaker 1: uplifting story. But my mom's mom died giving birth to
Speaker 1: my mum, so my mom never knew her mum. So
Speaker 1: it's like you know when you like, oh, who are
Speaker 1: you like out of your parents, or it's like, well, yeah,
Speaker 1: so she she was born nine thirty nine, first year
Speaker 1: of the World War, and she's still around. And it
Speaker 1: was great to see the old Dahl and the old
Speaker 1: man is not you're not moving like a gazelle. Will
Speaker 1: say that he's not going to do any fucking ten
Speaker 1: k time trial anytime soon. But it was good to
Speaker 1: catch up with him and eat some food and talk
Speaker 1: shit and then head home at stupid o'clock and have
Speaker 1: nine minutes of sleep and then get up and ingest
Speaker 1: some caffeine just to get my brain working. And here
Speaker 1: we are. What about you, Robert, how have you been?
Speaker 1: What have you been up to?
Speaker 3: I've been having a lot of caffeine as well, probably
Speaker 3: a bit too much, just work. Last week was a
Speaker 3: holiday here in the US, Thanksgiving?
Speaker 1: What is the origin story of Thanksgiving?
Speaker 3: For us?
Speaker 1: Non Thanksgiving people? I know that I think a few
Speaker 1: Australians actually celebrate it, but it's obviously not an Australian holiday.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure every American knows every once of the
Speaker 1: story of its its genesis. But what can you bobby
Speaker 1: a fight in sixty seconds?
Speaker 3: For us?
Speaker 1: What is Thanksgiving about?
Speaker 3: Well, it's when the Pilgrims left Plymouth, England and landed
Speaker 3: in well Plymouth coincidentally and by way of Holland. I
Speaker 3: believe we leave that bit out, and they met the
Speaker 3: Native Americans and they formed this lovely friendship because the
Speaker 3: Native Americans helped them through the first hard winter, and
Speaker 3: without the help of the Native Americans they would not
Speaker 3: have survived.
Speaker 1: And then to show their appreciation, they gave.
Speaker 3: Them small parks and basically killed everyone in horribly violent
Speaker 3: and sadistic ways. And every year we celebrate that on Thanksgiving.
Speaker 1: What, well, that's the worst story I've ever heard. Are
Speaker 1: you trying to depress any everyone?
Speaker 3: Okay? School, well, school, you hear that?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: That they came in, they made great friends with these
Speaker 3: Native American people who were very, very different from them,
Speaker 3: and apparently the Pilgrims had enormous respect and curiosity about
Speaker 3: people's differences. When you get to know the story, and
Speaker 3: they had this big feast to celebrate how grateful they
Speaker 3: were and they called this Thanksgiving, and you know, then
Speaker 3: you get a little bit older and you start to
Speaker 3: learn a little bit more history, and it's like, I
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know if if I could say
Speaker 3: that the historical relationship between the indigenous people in the
Speaker 3: United States and people who came over from Europe was
Speaker 3: always defined as friendly. So what it depends on your
Speaker 3: definition of the word friendship.
Speaker 1: So what is it now like in twenty twenty five?
Speaker 1: What is it? And I'm sure I'm sure that maybe
Speaker 1: that for some people that the historical kind of relevance
Speaker 1: may shouldn't have but may have disappeared, Like what is it?
Speaker 1: And that story shouldn't be forgotten or it should probably
Speaker 1: be taught and told more. But what is it in
Speaker 1: twenty twenty five is where families just get together and
Speaker 1: hang out?
Speaker 3: Yeah? Now, I mean, now it's just the day to
Speaker 3: get together. And I mean I don't want to be
Speaker 3: cynical at all, and typically I'm not cynical. But for
Speaker 3: for some people, I guess it's it's it's just a
Speaker 3: really important national holiday. For other people, it's a reason
Speaker 3: to get together with family members that you haven't seen
Speaker 3: all the year. You know, some of which you love,
Speaker 3: some of who you despise, and you get together with
Speaker 3: them purely out of obligation. You eat a perverse amount
Speaker 3: of food and drink, and you know, just pass out
Speaker 3: in a stupor.
Speaker 1: Is there any kind of what's the word pushback? Like
Speaker 1: in Australia, we have on January twenty sixth, correct me
Speaker 1: if I'm wrong, tiff thing called Australia Day, and that
Speaker 1: gets quite a lot of pushback because the origin story,
Speaker 1: the story you just told us not that different, you
Speaker 1: know for Australia. And I'm not trying to be political
Speaker 1: or polarize anyone. I'm just curious, like, and there's been
Speaker 1: a lot of let's say, argument and debate even conflict
Speaker 1: around whether or not Australia Day should be a thing.
Speaker 1: And I'm not saying it should or it shouldn't. I'm
Speaker 1: just talking about what's been going on over the last
Speaker 1: decade or two. Is there any pushback in the States
Speaker 1: against this celebration.
Speaker 3: I don't hear that much about Thanksgiving, and I'm sure
Speaker 3: there is pushback, But we've had pushback on certain holidays,
Speaker 3: like Columbus Day, for example. That's been an ongoing debate
Speaker 3: because the story of Christopher Columbus it's not I mean,
Speaker 3: there's a couple of different origin stories, let's just put
Speaker 3: it that way. They don't line up with one another
Speaker 3: very well. But but here in you know, the United States,
Speaker 3: where we're very much against revisionist history, we like to
Speaker 3: we like to confront the past, all of our achievements
Speaker 3: and our mistakes, and take a sobering, honest view at
Speaker 3: what we have done and who we are, and how
Speaker 3: we can learn from that and just basically become better
Speaker 3: people and build a society that respects differences and works
Speaker 3: for as many people as possible.
Speaker 1: It's the pulse button. Okay, I want to chat about
Speaker 1: something else. Thank you for that. Thank you for enlightening me.
Speaker 1: I was chatting with somebody this morning and sounds clachy
Speaker 1: and not true. It's completely true. And I've been asked
Speaker 1: a version of this question a lot, and it was
Speaker 1: essentially it wasn't exactly this question, but it was kind
Speaker 1: of what they were asking, which is essentially, how do
Speaker 1: I find my purpose? Right? Like? What I'm the thing?
Speaker 1: And it's just a really it's an interesting conversation that
Speaker 1: I wanted to open up for both you and also
Speaker 1: around that. So what's my purpose?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 1: Do I have one? Or maybe I have multiple purposes?
Speaker 1: And what does that even mean? Purpose? Am I like
Speaker 1: a utensil in my life? It feels like we just
Speaker 1: have one thing that we are capable of doing. On
Speaker 1: top of that, does my purpose stay the same or
Speaker 1: can it change? Can it evolve? Was my purpose or
Speaker 1: my focus or my life meaning or whatever? Twenty five
Speaker 1: at twenty five the same as when I'm sixty two?
Speaker 1: Does it need to be? Can I change my mind?
Speaker 1: How do I find my purpose? Do I? Is it
Speaker 1: some kind of spiritual or existential revelation or awareness that
Speaker 1: happens upon me. Or is it just like I have
Speaker 1: an experience or I just literally make a decision. What
Speaker 1: do you what are your thoughts around I'm going to
Speaker 1: start with you, actually, Tiff, What do you in terms
Speaker 1: of when somebody says to you life purpose? What do
Speaker 1: you think about? Do you think of a single thing,
Speaker 1: multiple things, or you don't think about that in that
Speaker 1: way at all.
Speaker 2: I think it changes, and I think it I think
Speaker 2: of multiple things because it's evolved over time. And I
Speaker 2: think the more we learn and evolve and land in
Speaker 2: new places and when I have a different outlook, Like
Speaker 2: you know, when I was living in Tazzy, my purpose
Speaker 2: was just grow up, get a job, make some money,
Speaker 2: do the thing. And then I moved and then my
Speaker 2: world opened up and I read some books and my
Speaker 2: world changed and my purpose became different, and it was
Speaker 2: it was a different version of that same thing. Like
Speaker 2: I when I went to India last year and I
Speaker 2: stood on that mountain and I went, oh, huh, you
Speaker 2: think that you're doing life so differently? Or sometimes I
Speaker 2: have conversations on these shows and I think to myself, oh,
Speaker 2: you think you're doing life so differently. You think you've
Speaker 2: broken the mold. You are the mold like you are.
Speaker 2: You have not broken any molds. You're still do the
Speaker 2: same versions of things that are just one point removed
Speaker 2: from that little box that you initially.
Speaker 1: Thought was Like, I feel like I'm going to ask
Speaker 1: you in a sec Bobby, but I feel like for me,
Speaker 1: for me, my purpose has to be bigger than me,
Speaker 1: Like it can't really be. Of course, it's a bit
Speaker 1: about me, but it's really a bit about me being
Speaker 1: of that. And I know this sounds cliche and bullshitty,
Speaker 1: but it's true for me being of service and value.
Speaker 1: And you know, like even with this show, hopefully people
Speaker 1: enjoy it, Hopefully people get something from it. Hopefully people
Speaker 1: get a bit of enlightenment or a bit of enjoyment
Speaker 1: or a bit of inspiration, and then hopefully they make
Speaker 1: a decision or two and hopefully they take some action.
Speaker 1: Hopefully they create some results that they may not have
Speaker 1: created had they not intersected with the you project. Hopefully, right, So,
Speaker 1: I feel like, you know, there's when I used to
Speaker 1: want stuff for me that I think that was just
Speaker 1: more about my focus and my self centered kind of
Speaker 1: needs rather than a purpose. I don't know that I
Speaker 1: even had a purpose when I was young, other than
Speaker 1: just fucking looking after me, which really it doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: to me, purpose has got to be beyond me and
Speaker 1: bigger than me, I think, Bobby, I'll go on, Tiff, Sorry.
Speaker 2: I was just going to ask you about that. When
Speaker 2: do do you feel like there was a moment where
Speaker 2: you really landed on that idea of it being bigger
Speaker 2: than you?
Speaker 1: Luck? Yeah, I think without reopening a door that's been
Speaker 1: maybe too many times and listeners, apologies, but I think
Speaker 1: once I started to open the let's just call it
Speaker 1: the god door, where I just came became more interested
Speaker 1: in or curious about, you know, is there anything beyond
Speaker 1: what I can see and touch and feel and what
Speaker 1: I think is and try, you know, like, what does
Speaker 1: that mean? And I think, really for me, when I
Speaker 1: became moderately successful, when I was moderately young, and I
Speaker 1: was making you know, pretty good dough, and I had
Speaker 1: a pretty good thing going on by the time I
Speaker 1: was in my mid to late twenties. You know, I
Speaker 1: wasn't rich, but I was, and even in the middle
Speaker 1: of going great, I'm like, ah, this isn't bad. This
Speaker 1: is definitely you know, my goal is not to make
Speaker 1: less money, but clearly this isn't what it's about, because
Speaker 1: I still the things that I felt, which is an
Speaker 1: adequate and insecure and somewhat unfulfilled and periodically anxious and
Speaker 1: a bit sad, and that was all still there. And
Speaker 1: then I realized my revelation was when I focus more
Speaker 1: on others, I'm less selfish. And also there's and it
Speaker 1: almost sounds selfish, like doing something for others to get
Speaker 1: something for you. But I just noticed that when I'm
Speaker 1: not all about me, and when i'm you know, genuinely
Speaker 1: trying to be of value and service to others, I'm
Speaker 1: a better version of me. And so I try to,
Speaker 1: you know, at least have that attitude through the day.
Speaker 1: And of course sometimes I'm a selfish prick, and sometimes
Speaker 1: I'm all about me, and sometimes I'm unaware. So I
Speaker 1: acknowledge all of that, but I know for me personally,
Speaker 1: absolutely unequivocally, that when I have a purpose bigger than me,
Speaker 1: I'm just a much better human.
Speaker 2: Can you remember last question? Can you remember the first
Speaker 2: big other focused experience that really hamm'd a home?
Speaker 1: Well, I've had quite a few. The earliest one or
Speaker 1: just one does have to be the first one.
Speaker 2: Just one, No, just one?
Speaker 1: Well, I just think again without playing a broken record,
Speaker 1: like working with Johnny for all the years. John's a
Speaker 1: friend of mine. I know, my listeners know. But those
Speaker 1: three of you who don't, who got literally blown up
Speaker 1: in an industrial accident of work accident, some gas bottles
Speaker 1: exploded and all that, and so eight years ago, it
Speaker 1: was eight years ago, about three or four days ago,
Speaker 1: you know, and just and you know him. How beautiful
Speaker 1: is he? How amazing is he? Yeah? And I mean,
Speaker 1: here's this guy who's got a traumatic brain injury. He's
Speaker 1: got to put a thing up. He's a wizor to
Speaker 1: have a whee. He's got a bag for pooh. He's
Speaker 1: got a spinal cord. He knows. He doesn't mind me
Speaker 1: talking about this, like he can't pooh, he can't where,
Speaker 1: he can't have sex. He's in constant pain. He's got
Speaker 1: a spinal cord injury. He's got a traumatic brain injury.
Speaker 1: His life is I mean hard, doesn't come close, right,
Speaker 1: Never complaints. You've probably been in the gym four five
Speaker 1: hundred times when he trains. Never complaints, just doesn't plane.
Speaker 1: And for me to be able to be to be
Speaker 1: a tiny bit of something positive in his life gives
Speaker 1: me so much more joy than anything I do for myself. Yeah,
Speaker 1: you know so, Bobby, Sorry for leaving you over in
Speaker 1: the virtual corner all that time.
Speaker 3: It's not the first time it's happened. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: the virtual corner. This is the first time in the
Speaker 3: virtual corner. Feels a little bit different. I think everyone
Speaker 3: has a purpose. I think we need to define it.
Speaker 3: Like when we say purpose, what exactly are we talking about?
Speaker 1: Good question I'm talking about.
Speaker 3: When I say purpose, is what happens when you have
Speaker 3: a strongly rooted value, something that's really meaningful to you.
Speaker 3: Like let's say love of learning. That's something that is
Speaker 3: meaningful to me, and when I engage in it, it
Speaker 3: makes me feel more alive. Now when you go out
Speaker 3: and you express that in the world. Let's say I'm
Speaker 3: sitting around a coffee table and I'm sharing these ideas
Speaker 3: that have deeply impacted me and I found them to
Speaker 3: be valuable and they impact other people around me.
Speaker 1: Not everyone around me.
Speaker 3: Some people couldn't give a shit and wish I would
Speaker 3: like shut up and stop going on about this book
Speaker 3: I'm reading, but other people it impacts them in a
Speaker 3: way that elevates their well being, either in the moment
Speaker 3: or long term. And when you are expressing those values
Speaker 3: in a way that impacts people to elevate their well being,
Speaker 3: I believe that is your purpose.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, So have you changed your mind or changed
Speaker 1: your focus or change your trajectory along the way? I mean,
Speaker 1: I know I've changed my mind on many things, and
Speaker 1: I've had to unlearned things and know and up to
Speaker 1: things I got wrong. And but what about you?
Speaker 2: Have you like?
Speaker 1: Is are you pretty much just a twenty year older
Speaker 1: version of the blow from two decades ago? Or are
Speaker 1: you different? And if so, how and how is your
Speaker 1: focus and your purpose and passion different?
Speaker 3: If it is, I hope I've changed. I hope my
Speaker 3: focus and lens is different. I'm not all that sure
Speaker 3: that my values have shifted that much, although they do
Speaker 3: shift year to year. I've taken I like the via
Speaker 3: assessment from doctor Morton Seligman because it's coming from the
Speaker 3: perspective that your highest values and your signature strengths are
Speaker 3: one and the same. And I strongly believe that, and
Speaker 3: I think that has a lot of utility to it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: if you are living out a value consistently, you're probably
Speaker 3: going to develop some skill. You're probably going to develop
Speaker 3: some proficiency within that area, whether that shows up in
Speaker 3: work or parenting. So I like that concept. So every
Speaker 3: few years my value shift, but my highest values they
Speaker 3: might shift in order a priority, but they stay fairly consistent.
Speaker 1: Mm. Is there something, Tiff, Is there something over the
Speaker 1: last I don't know how long that you've changed your
Speaker 1: mind about that or you think you got wrong or
Speaker 1: in the context of the big picture stuff life, how
Speaker 1: you live, you know, maybe even values. Is there something
Speaker 1: that you've changed your mind about there doesn't need to be,
Speaker 1: So if there isn't just go no, not really.
Speaker 2: But I think I have an awareness that I would
Speaker 2: like to and am not yet stepping out to expand.
Speaker 2: I don't know what I've experienced and what I where
Speaker 2: I want to end up or what I want to do.
Speaker 2: Like I just yeah, I don't know. I'm very aware
Speaker 2: that I maybe to a degree, I love what I'm
Speaker 2: doing and I love where I'm heading, but I I
Speaker 2: don't know, I don't know what I'm trying.
Speaker 1: How much of us? So all three of us get
Speaker 1: in front of audiences, right, Yeah, I'm going to start
Speaker 1: with you, Bobby, and then come back to you. TIF.
Speaker 1: How much of what you talk about when you're in
Speaker 1: front of a group, Bobby, is something that you read
Speaker 1: or what we might call a quiet knowledge. You know,
Speaker 1: you read it, you heard it, and you do a
Speaker 1: lot of reading, and you've got a fucking incredible memory
Speaker 1: that I don't have, So I'm forever jealous of your
Speaker 1: amazing brain and your amazing memory. How much of what
Speaker 1: you share, and I'm sure it varies a little, but
Speaker 1: is just about stuff that you've learned acquiet knowledge research,
Speaker 1: all that kind of theoretical stuff, which is also important.
Speaker 1: And how much is just shit you've learned along the way,
Speaker 1: like experiential stuff that you go, Okay, I've been through
Speaker 1: a situation like that, and this is what happened and
Speaker 1: this is how I figured it out.
Speaker 3: When I'm at my best. It's one hundred percent in
Speaker 3: both categories. There's no delineation because I bring in research.
Speaker 3: It's because of my own personal experience and my connection
Speaker 3: and what I'm looking to accomplish with the audience or
Speaker 3: what journey I'm trying to take people on when I'm
Speaker 3: not at my best, I tend to stick to, Okay, well,
Speaker 3: what's the curriculum, what am I need to teach, what
Speaker 3: research supports this, where's the evidence, where's the proof? I
Speaker 3: think that when the connection is where it needs to be,
Speaker 3: I bring all of myself into everything I say, regardless
Speaker 3: of the context, regardless of whether it's empirical or anecdotal.
Speaker 3: I am right there in the middle of everything that
Speaker 3: I communicate.
Speaker 1: Do you have a gain in that space where you know,
Speaker 1: for one of a less wanky term, you feel like
Speaker 1: you're in flow and just time time just kind of
Speaker 1: becomes a different thing.
Speaker 3: It's so funny because the answer to that used to be,
Speaker 3: at a minimum fifty percent of the time, I would
Speaker 3: say most of the things that I did work related
Speaker 3: put me in a state of flap, like where I
Speaker 3: would put my head down and I would be writing,
Speaker 3: and I picked my head up, I'm like, God, it's
Speaker 3: dark out and I started in the middle of the afternoon,
Speaker 3: like I've literally been here for hours. It feels like
Speaker 3: it's been fifteen minutes. On stage definitely, where I disappear
Speaker 3: and I come to at the end of the presentation,
Speaker 3: exhausted and feeling like, oh wow, that was that was amazing,
Speaker 3: but having no experience of it being amazing while I'm
Speaker 3: doing it. Lately, those flow experiences have been well, just decreasing.
Speaker 1: That's saying that people have. You know, I've said it
Speaker 1: and again apologized for the cheese for the gooda. It
Speaker 1: doesn't come from me. It comes through me, right, and
Speaker 1: sometimes not every second time, But there have been times
Speaker 1: in my life where, especially one time, I just had
Speaker 1: this kind of I hope it's not at once in
Speaker 1: a lifetime experience, but it was fucking amazing. It was
Speaker 1: I don't know what it was, just it was spiritual.
Speaker 1: It was like when I was at Tiff, you were there.
Speaker 1: I think at Deacon maybe you were there, and there
Speaker 1: was seven hundred odd people and three hours went like
Speaker 1: thirty minutes, and I looked up at one stage and
Speaker 1: there were four hundred of the seven hundred people balling,
Speaker 1: and one minute later laughing, and that time flew and
Speaker 1: I had people lined up for an hour and yes,
Speaker 1: all that feels good for your ego, but some thing
Speaker 1: happened that was way more powerful than me, and I'm like,
Speaker 1: fucking hell, I don't even know how to do that again.
Speaker 1: And then when everyone went and it was a long time,
Speaker 1: so maybe we finished at five, and every probably six
Speaker 1: point thirty everyone had gone. Melissa and I were just
Speaker 1: I think, picking up like fucking cans from around the
Speaker 1: auditorium or whatever, and that we got the first moment
Speaker 1: together where we could just chat without people around. And
Speaker 1: she goes to me, what on earth was that? And
Speaker 1: I go, I don't know. She goes, she calls me Bro.
Speaker 1: She goes, Bro, there's like that was She goes, I
Speaker 1: can't even explain that. I go, I can't explain that.
Speaker 1: That wasn't the skill, that wasn't talent, that wasn't Craig's brain,
Speaker 1: that wasn't Craig the storyteller. And I know some people
Speaker 1: are going to go, you're a fucking idiot, and I
Speaker 1: understand you thinking that, but I'm telling you there was
Speaker 1: something going on that was way bigger than me on
Speaker 1: that day. I fucking so I would do one of
Speaker 1: those every day for zero dollars for the rest of
Speaker 1: my life, to be able to get in that space
Speaker 1: and do that thing with people, and have that level
Speaker 1: of connection with a room full of humans where it
Speaker 1: seems like all the individuality and all the separation and
Speaker 1: all the apartners melts away. It's like there's just this
Speaker 1: one breathing soul in the room. Oh fuck, I'm so good,
Speaker 1: so good. Wow. Have you had that TIF or something
Speaker 1: like that where you get to that point where you're
Speaker 1: like you kind of lose yourself a bit?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I even to some degree in podcast conversations, I
Speaker 2: feel that can happen where you just kick off and
Speaker 2: end up in some unexpected place, or take have people
Speaker 2: arriving at a space where you're sharing something so deep
Speaker 2: and introspective and vulnerable, and there's just an energy.
Speaker 1: To it, isn't it? And isn't isn't that Like we
Speaker 1: shouldn't say this because this is podcast secrets everyone, but
Speaker 1: some guests it's like, oh fucking hell, I want to
Speaker 1: punch myself in the face. This is just this forty
Speaker 1: five minutes feels like two painful hours. Right, you both
Speaker 1: had Bobby's got his shut up, Bobby's got his own show,
Speaker 1: so he's But then there are other people where you
Speaker 1: fall into this vortex and you don't want it to stop.
Speaker 1: And I'm like, this is this hour and a half
Speaker 1: and it's normally forty five and I look up it's
Speaker 1: an hour and a half. I'm like, it's not enough time,
Speaker 1: And you know, yeah, that is. It is so funny.
Speaker 1: Obviously time is a constant, but the way that we
Speaker 1: experience time is a variable. And it's it's so incredible
Speaker 1: how much that experience can vary.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think when we surrender to it, like the
Speaker 2: thinking part of present and speaking and planning like is
Speaker 2: so not me. And I've had people give feedback on
Speaker 2: a particular episode that they have really loved and connected with,
Speaker 2: and the feedback they give me is around that intuitive
Speaker 2: nature of the way I will listen and ask a
Speaker 2: question particular questions and the space I create and I
Speaker 2: listen to that feedback and I value it so much,
Speaker 2: but I don't know. I'm like, okay, so that happens sometimes,
Speaker 2: I don't know how many of the times, and it's
Speaker 2: really special. But I don't know how to create it
Speaker 2: or recreate it or teach it. I just have to
Speaker 2: show up and trust it. And it's it's beautiful, but
Speaker 2: also I guess a bit frustrating because you can't go, well,
Speaker 2: if I do this, this and this, I'll always be
Speaker 2: like that or I can teach people how to be
Speaker 2: like this.
Speaker 3: Wow, So you don't know how you do it?
Speaker 2: No, No, because I don't think of questions. I don't.
Speaker 1: It's a two piece puzzle, right, you can't. You know,
Speaker 1: we had a very famous person on this show. I'll
Speaker 1: tell you both who later. Tif you might know off
Speaker 1: the top of you had very famous wrote one of
Speaker 1: the most famous books of the nineteen eighties and nineties.
Speaker 1: He wrote a couple of versions, super Famous. You would
Speaker 1: all know his name, Farck and terrible Fark. Want to
Speaker 1: punch myself in the face. Couldn't couldn't publish it. It
Speaker 1: was so bad, and it was like, God, bless him.
Speaker 1: That sounds I'm not trying to be mean, but it
Speaker 1: was just it was just a clunky, uncomfortable, awkward conversation
Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, we And I was so excited
Speaker 1: because I'm like, well, this is this person's got a profile.
Speaker 1: This we're going to get this is good. But yeah,
Speaker 1: that's yeah. I think sometimes Bobby, there's just like there's
Speaker 1: you and another person or person's in that moment. There's
Speaker 1: a just a chemistry and maybe you can't plan it
Speaker 1: or orchestrate it.
Speaker 3: And I think that there's so many variables to that
Speaker 3: to even try to unpack what creates that chemistry, that
Speaker 3: resonance between two people. I mean, we could, but when
Speaker 3: you're on stage and there is there is a resonance
Speaker 3: there with people, there is there is something being communicated
Speaker 3: in a different way, but the communication is present. If
Speaker 3: somebody asked you, like, how do you get into that space,
Speaker 3: that transcendent moment where Melissa was giving you that feedback
Speaker 3: like what happened?
Speaker 1: Yes, what would be your answer? I wish I had
Speaker 1: a three step kind of I don't really, but I
Speaker 1: do know that, like for me, there's a fine line
Speaker 1: between how much I plan and how much I don't plan.
Speaker 1: If I overplan, I'm generally not good. I've got stories
Speaker 1: about where I planned like a motherfucker and I was horrible, horrible.
Speaker 1: I wouldn't have had me on my own podcast, that's
Speaker 1: how bad I was, right, and then other times where
Speaker 1: I didn't give it enough thought and I was also horrible.
Speaker 1: So I think it's funny because the day that this
Speaker 1: sounds weird, I don't even want to say this, but
Speaker 1: I'm going to be transparent. The day that that thing happened,
Speaker 1: I remember that one day I sat in my little
Speaker 1: car at Deacon and I prayed before I went in.
Speaker 1: And it wasn't a you know, dear Lord God. You know.
Speaker 1: It was just like, like, I don't want this to
Speaker 1: be about me. I want it to be only about them,
Speaker 1: you know, not my ego, not my brand, not my this,
Speaker 1: not my that, like I just wanted. I I feel
Speaker 1: like my intention makes a difference and my presence going
Speaker 1: in and if I'm all about telling dick jokes and
Speaker 1: being hilarious and just you know, using my skills and
Speaker 1: my risma and my experience and my personality, I tend
Speaker 1: to be worse. I tend to be worse. It's not
Speaker 1: to say that you shouldn't use those things, but you know,
Speaker 1: I think there's something much more powerful than all of
Speaker 1: those things I just spoke of, and it's trying to
Speaker 1: get into that space or that level of operation.
Speaker 3: There's got to be something to that, because I feel
Speaker 3: when I and my audiences were getting the most out
Speaker 3: of me in my career, I would frequently pray before
Speaker 3: every session, yeah, the same thing, like get me out
Speaker 3: of this, please, like remove me and my ego from
Speaker 3: this presentation. So I don't go in there as if
Speaker 3: there's a skill that I've developed that is the most
Speaker 3: important influential factor in what people get from this.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I think you can even do the same thing
Speaker 1: when you're just going into a meeting. I've done it
Speaker 1: when I'm going to meet somebody one on one and
Speaker 1: I get a heads up that this could be difficult
Speaker 1: and complicated and not an easy hour, where I kind of,
Speaker 1: you know, I just want to make sure that whatever
Speaker 1: energy that I bring into that moment, that it is
Speaker 1: the best energy for them and for the situation. And yeah,
Speaker 1: if I just have that little moment for me, it's
Speaker 1: about one minute, if that thirty seconds, one minute where
Speaker 1: I just take a breath like I just did, and
Speaker 1: just get out of my own bullshit and realize that
Speaker 1: I'm not great. I'm just lucky. Like there's nothing about
Speaker 1: me that's great. And people go, don't say that. I'm like,
Speaker 1: there isn't there really isn't. You know. I can try
Speaker 1: hard and work hard and doesn't mean I'm a bad human,
Speaker 1: but you know, I am just super duper fortunate that
Speaker 1: I was born in a great country, a great time.
Speaker 1: I had great friends, I lived in a great environment,
Speaker 1: some of the things that I've done over the time
Speaker 1: have worked out well, some not. But you know, it's
Speaker 1: like I've literally for sixty years had almost fucking no
Speaker 1: adversity compared to what a lot of people have.
Speaker 3: So I feel like if you don't have that balance perspective,
Speaker 3: Like earlier, I was being a little bit facetious around
Speaker 3: the Thanksgiving holiday here, and it's not a lot of
Speaker 3: people hear me say that and like, oh, that's so negative,
Speaker 3: Like you cannot say anything negative about you or a
Speaker 3: holiday or port your heritage. And I think as a
Speaker 3: culture and as individuals, taking a sobering, honest look at yourself, yeah,
Speaker 3: it is in no way degrading to yourself. I think
Speaker 3: it's a necessary aspect of self care, like looking at
Speaker 3: what are the things that I do well, what are
Speaker 3: the times where my efforts, my decisions, intentions facilitated something
Speaker 3: pretty good?
Speaker 1: And when have.
Speaker 3: There been times when it's been the opposite? Because you
Speaker 3: can learn from both. And then to go back to
Speaker 3: your statement, acknowledging hey, I am lucky does not mean
Speaker 3: that what you're doing is insignificant. It's no, there have
Speaker 3: been a series of circumstances that given everything else being
Speaker 3: equal with all my work, ethic, talent and skills and mindset.
Speaker 1: I want to I still want to.
Speaker 3: Have gotten to do what I'm doing right now. It
Speaker 3: wouldn't have matters. It doesn't take anything away from us
Speaker 3: to give credit to others and to give credit to
Speaker 3: circumstances and to and a little bit of self criticism.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but I see, Yeah, I totally concur your honor
Speaker 1: for me is about just on a self awareness. It's
Speaker 1: not self loathing at all. It's just acknowledging what is Like.
Speaker 1: I've had conversations Tiff and I had a moment I
Speaker 1: don't know a long time, well, eight months, I don't fuck,
Speaker 1: I don't know where we There was about a month
Speaker 1: where we just didn't get on, right, I mean we
Speaker 1: it was it was just weird. And then I kind
Speaker 1: of I was a little bit like, fuck Tiff, fucking Tiff,
Speaker 1: fucking Tiff is fucking so problematic, right, and then she
Speaker 1: was probably going harps as a cunt, which is not
Speaker 1: that far from the truth. So all right, so she's
Speaker 1: pretty insightful.
Speaker 3: It's like, stop sending me these texts.
Speaker 1: Jeez. Yeah, yeah, yeah, just before I'm about to not
Speaker 1: off to bed ever count anyway, you men, anyway for
Speaker 1: our one remoting listener, You're welcome. Don't play this to
Speaker 1: my mum. But like, there was stuff that I needed
Speaker 1: to just go, ah, so here's what I'm doing wrong.
Speaker 1: Not like oh yeah, but you didn't mean it, but
Speaker 1: you know it's like, well maybe maybe not, Like you know,
Speaker 1: there are just things that I do that don't work.
Speaker 1: There are you know, there are times when something is
Speaker 1: problematic and most of the problem is me. There are
Speaker 1: times when most of the problem isn't me, But there
Speaker 1: are friendly times, definitely times when it's me. And that's
Speaker 1: not throwing yourself under a bus or beating yourself up.
Speaker 1: I think that's just fucking great self awareness. And it's like, well,
Speaker 1: I need to acknowledge the things that I'm doing badly
Speaker 1: or poorly so that I can do them better. That
Speaker 1: doesn't mean I hate me, that doesn't mean I'm a
Speaker 1: bad human. That means I actually do want to get better.
Speaker 1: And I can't get better at the things that I
Speaker 1: won't acknowledge. I'm shit at right. And it's like my
Speaker 1: old trope that I wheel out, which is everyone wants
Speaker 1: feedback until you give them feedback, They don't want right
Speaker 1: because they don't really want feedback unless it's praise. You know,
Speaker 1: it's a round of applause.
Speaker 3: Or a pat on the back, and everything that's not
Speaker 3: consensus and praise is not gaslighting any any type of
Speaker 3: critical feedback is. I mean it could be that very
Speaker 3: well could be what's happening, but not always. And if
Speaker 3: everybody around you is gaslighting you constantly, it's not that
Speaker 3: you're in a manipulative environment. It's maybe that you know
Speaker 3: you're not willing to face certain aspects of your person
Speaker 3: because things could never be everybody else all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's just like yeah, and they will probably never
Speaker 1: be you all the time. I like this kind of
Speaker 1: kind of thinking, an awareness. And again I've spoken about
Speaker 1: this twenty times, apologies, but it's worth including because it's relevant.
Speaker 1: But you know, as a young gym instructor and then
Speaker 1: as a young personal trainer. So I'm on the floor
Speaker 1: with people and I'm seeing most of my clients three
Speaker 1: times a week, so you are literally and you've both
Speaker 1: done this because we have very similar backstories. But where
Speaker 1: you see old mate three days a week, so three
Speaker 1: days a week for one for an hour, one on
Speaker 1: one you and her or you and he are chatting
Speaker 1: like that's more than I speak to my mum. That's
Speaker 1: more than I speak to me. You know. It's like,
Speaker 1: this is where you're having these and sometimes like I
Speaker 1: had one lady Pauline that I trained for sixteen years
Speaker 1: six hours a week, so it's six hours a week
Speaker 1: of one on one conversation interaction on and knew her
Speaker 1: incredibly well. Right. But my long winded point is when invariably,
Speaker 1: when I would talk to people about problems that they
Speaker 1: were having in their life, they never saw themselves as
Speaker 1: the problem. They always saw themselves as the victim and
Speaker 1: someone or something else as the cause. Now, sometimes that's
Speaker 1: going to be true, but it can't be fucking true
Speaker 1: all the time. And when I would even dare to
Speaker 1: suggest that there seems to be a lot of these
Speaker 1: problems on planet you with a lot of different people,
Speaker 1: and you seem to be the constant, it's like, yeah,
Speaker 1: that would not go down well at all. Or you know,
Speaker 1: the amount of times where people would talk about their
Speaker 1: partner to me and it would invariably be more negative
Speaker 1: than positive, where they would be commenting on their relationship
Speaker 1: and him or her and they wouldn't be saying positive things,
Speaker 1: and people go, oh, that's it's fucking true. In fact,
Speaker 1: I would say in my case it was eighty to
Speaker 1: ninety percent unless they're just talking about incidental we went
Speaker 1: to a barbecue on the weekend. But if they were
Speaker 1: actually talking about their partner and about their relationship, it
Speaker 1: was always or it was most of the time more
Speaker 1: negative than positive. And I just think that just doesn't
Speaker 1: work in any context for any person. You know, So
Speaker 1: I don't know, Tiff, it's your turn say something brilliant, amazing,
Speaker 1: no pressure.
Speaker 2: I think. I think it's interesting in friendships and relationships
Speaker 2: how we like like reflecting on you and I and
Speaker 2: how we avoid this is typical like I've been on
Speaker 2: in the University of This the last few years of
Speaker 2: trying to be better at being open and honest in
Speaker 2: friendships and relationships and say how I feel and say
Speaker 2: and have conversations. But that idea of rupture and repair,
Speaker 2: and I think put that into context of the amount
Speaker 2: of relationships like the ones you're talking about, where people
Speaker 2: have their person and they've fallen in love and they
Speaker 2: have them in their life for a whole lot of time,
Speaker 2: and then there's these friction points, and rather than resolving
Speaker 2: them with the person, there's something that makes us avoid,
Speaker 2: Like I would make assumptions, and you would make assumptions
Speaker 2: about and we have this story about Tips doing this,
Speaker 2: Harps is doing that, and this is and I make
Speaker 2: a decision about why you're doing that because I've got
Speaker 2: all these bullshit triggers and insecurities, so I can a
Speaker 2: narrative to that, and then it's easier to walk away
Speaker 2: and prove myself right that everyone's just an asshole at
Speaker 2: some point. No one's ever going to hang around forever.
Speaker 2: Yet you have a conversation with me. I hear you,
Speaker 2: You hear me. We have a think about it, and
Speaker 2: the friendship has never been stronger. And like want a lesson,
Speaker 2: But why do you think, in general, so many humans
Speaker 2: this is why we have counselism and couple's COUNSELORSM why
Speaker 2: can't we just do that? What stops us?
Speaker 1: I think, Well, Bobby, well, I think fear and EO
Speaker 1: and insecurity and we you know it is hard too,
Speaker 1: It is hard to go, hey, we had this thing
Speaker 1: and I was mostly the problem. So I'm sorry, you know,
Speaker 1: and it's like I'm better and better at that over
Speaker 1: the years, because I've had to do it a lot,
Speaker 1: you know, where I you know, it's like I know,
Speaker 1: well ergo in my PhD. It's like it's really been
Speaker 1: a valuable journey for me to try to understand and
Speaker 1: what the fuck it is like being around me for
Speaker 1: other humans, and for some humans being around me is
Speaker 1: fun and nice and enjoyable and positive, but not for everyone.
Speaker 1: And I can't just go, oh, they're all pricks. Well, no,
Speaker 1: it's probably in my interest to try to understand, you know.
Speaker 1: And that doesn't mean it's always I'm always going to
Speaker 1: be problematic. But you know, it's like that old chestnut
Speaker 1: of Craig, you're intimidating, And I'm like, I'm not intimidating.
Speaker 1: Who fucking said that, you know? And then oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: that's right, I am intimidating. You know. It's like trying
Speaker 1: to understand and realize that whatever people's experience of you is,
Speaker 1: then that is for them, one hundred percent their experience.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter that your intention is good because their
Speaker 1: experience is not your intention. Now that doesn't mean you
Speaker 1: have yeah, or their experience is not your intention, and
Speaker 1: that doesn't mean that you've got to agree with them,
Speaker 1: but you need to understand them, you know. And even
Speaker 1: down to when I talked to my mom last night
Speaker 1: at her birthday. I was trying to talk about a
Speaker 1: few medical things about Dad with her, and I'm like thinking, Fuck,
Speaker 1: how do I say this in a way that won't
Speaker 1: terrify her but also will absolutely make sense and also
Speaker 1: weave in a little bit of hope, you know. And
Speaker 1: so all of this is going through my mind as
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to download information. You know, how do
Speaker 1: I make this mary friendly? How do I make this
Speaker 1: not terrifying? How do I make it accurate? So I'm
Speaker 1: not just saying bullshit? But and you know, also in
Speaker 1: the moment, what is this like what I'm saying to
Speaker 1: my mum? What is this like for her right now?
Speaker 1: You know?
Speaker 2: So I think it takes so long to know ourselves
Speaker 2: as well as we have this emotional reaction, and then
Speaker 2: we before we have a chance to really explore it,
Speaker 2: we make a decision on the most logical reason that
Speaker 2: comforts us as to why it takes place. Oh, I
Speaker 2: feel this. It's obviously because they're an asshole. They deliberately
Speaker 2: did that, But we don't explore what about that thing
Speaker 2: that just happened just made an emotion come up in me?
Speaker 2: What's the real story about that, what action occurred? And
Speaker 2: then what in the experience represented that in the moment
Speaker 2: that just happened, because that's what it was. The case
Speaker 2: has been the case for me over the years, is going, oh,
Speaker 2: when people turn up five minutes late, I turn in,
Speaker 2: I have a huge emotional reaction. What's that all about?
Speaker 2: Because now I just because it turns me into someone
Speaker 2: that thinks that nobody cares. And that's because this emotional
Speaker 2: switch that flips and there's its story, and it's like, well,
Speaker 2: none of that story is true. But obviously somewhere along
Speaker 2: the way you have this not matter hurt button, according
Speaker 2: to doctor Bill just saying that's one of yeah, and
Speaker 2: that's one of the ones that flips it.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah. I don't know about you, Bobby, but I
Speaker 1: always thought I was What pushes my buttons over the
Speaker 1: years is when people thought I was stupid or not
Speaker 1: very intelligent or you know whatever. Because I thought I
Speaker 1: was stupid and I thought I was unintelligent, and so
Speaker 1: I would, yeah, I would be very different because it's
Speaker 1: like they would just tell it was really just consolidating
Speaker 1: and confirming, Yeah, you're right, I am fucking stupid, and
Speaker 1: yeah I would respond to that way more than you
Speaker 1: know what they said about my body. Like I was
Speaker 1: pretty obsessed with my body and my appearance because I
Speaker 1: was wildly fucking insecure, had all the issues, but I
Speaker 1: was also insecure about you know, like I people for
Speaker 1: years make fun of where I grew up. Shout out
Speaker 1: to Moey, love mey, you know, and and even now
Speaker 1: you know, not so much, but like do you own
Speaker 1: anything other than a flannel shirt or a black T
Speaker 1: shirt or and so that thing of I mean, it's
Speaker 1: really interesting because on one hand, I have people who
Speaker 1: have me on a pedestal, which maybe they shouldn't, I
Speaker 1: don't know. But at the same time, other people who
Speaker 1: think I'm just a lucky, fucking idiot who's done. Okay,
Speaker 1: you know what about you, Bobby?
Speaker 3: You know, earlier you said that these patterns have a
Speaker 3: lot to do with fear, ego and insecurity, and of course,
Speaker 3: but I think we're getting into it now a little
Speaker 3: bit where many people, not everybody, but many people are
Speaker 3: scared shitless and they don't have anything figured out. I
Speaker 3: think Where we get our security from is our mental
Speaker 3: models and these belief systems, and if something can't tr
Speaker 3: one of those belief systems, it adds to the anxiety
Speaker 3: of enormous uncertainty. I think that becomes the problem where
Speaker 3: I am I'm unwilling to examine certain things about myself
Speaker 3: because the answer can be terrified. Now you just talking about,
Speaker 3: like why does she get upset when people arrive five
Speaker 3: minutes late? And punctuality is a very important thing for me. Yes,
Speaker 3: I've been telling that. I've been reading about the story
Speaker 3: of ebenez a Scrooge. It's a classic. I've been telling
Speaker 3: that story lately, or attempting to because it's that season.
Speaker 3: And when you look at that story, you see a
Speaker 3: lot of you see a lot of these deeper layers
Speaker 3: where the Scrooge were introduced to in the beginning of
Speaker 3: the story. Is not the authentic Scrooge. I mean, we're
Speaker 3: kind of starting in the middle of the story there,
Speaker 3: and then, of course, with the ghost of Christmas Past,
Speaker 3: we go back to the beginning. Scrooge seemed like he
Speaker 3: was a very sensitive, caring kid who had crippling abandonment
Speaker 3: issues because his father was horribly neglectful and cruel, punitive,
Speaker 3: you know.
Speaker 1: Not a nice guy at all.
Speaker 3: And every Christmas at boarding school, he had this crippling
Speaker 3: level of loneliness because all the kids, all of them
Speaker 3: went back home to be with their families. His dad
Speaker 3: didn't even think enough of them to spend Christmas with them,
Speaker 3: which made Christmas particularly painful. And this guy grows. I mean, like, wow,
Speaker 3: how petty and greedy is this individual. It's like, no,
Speaker 3: he's terrified. He has this avoidant attachment style that emerged
Speaker 3: out of a fear of abandonment. And people are they
Speaker 3: can't be counted on, but numbers can, money can. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's quite consistent. And so he develops this personality not
Speaker 3: out of evil, but out of loneliness. And then he
Speaker 3: has to defend that. He has to justify why his
Speaker 3: worldview is correct, why he's uncaring, why he is the
Speaker 3: way he is. And then you see at the end
Speaker 3: where it's the readiness to change that takes so long.
Speaker 3: Change itself is kind of rapid, and you see that
Speaker 3: with Scrooge. He starts, Yeah, he starts changing his behaviors,
Speaker 3: and all of a sudden he has all of the
Speaker 3: things that he's been deprived of all the things that
Speaker 3: he's probably wanted and the answer wasn't in his story,
Speaker 3: But we hang on to those stories.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Do you think also that people like
Speaker 1: talking about beliefs and stories that we all have beliefs
Speaker 1: and stories that we didn't choose. They're just to buy
Speaker 1: productive life and experiences and interaction and programming and conditioning
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah fill in the blank. Do you
Speaker 1: think that those things, to an extent, those stories and
Speaker 1: those beliefs and that programming becomes our identity. So that's
Speaker 1: who we are, that's who we are.
Speaker 3: And justify that story, don't you.
Speaker 1: And then when you question my story, you question who
Speaker 1: I am because my story and my belief is essentially
Speaker 1: intertwined with my sense of self. So when you attack
Speaker 1: me for being a vegan or a Christian or a
Speaker 1: Arsenal United supporter or whatever, you know, then you're attacking
Speaker 1: my sense of self. And so, you know, it's very
Speaker 1: hard when you've had beliefs for a lifetime or most
Speaker 1: of a lifetime, to even consider the fact that maybe
Speaker 1: that's a flawed belief, or maybe that story is not true,
Speaker 1: maybe that story is a limitation that's holding me back.
Speaker 1: Maybe it's kind of true, but not completely. I think
Speaker 1: that's the you know, the million dollar question is, you know,
Speaker 1: can are you objective? Are you open minded? And everybody
Speaker 1: says yes, I am, but the truth is nobody is.
Speaker 3: So I think that's a deeper layer.
Speaker 1: True.
Speaker 3: You have this need for certainty and these narratives, these
Speaker 3: mental models are where you believe you drive the certainty from,
Speaker 3: or maybe you're not even aware of it, so then
Speaker 3: you have it's so precarious to challenge these belief systems
Speaker 3: you have, and then you go deeper and it's like no, no, no, no,
Speaker 3: these aren't even your beliefs. These are beliefs that have
Speaker 3: been given to you. So I'm defending beliefs now that
Speaker 3: are not even my own. That's an interesting dynamic.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well they almost well they kind of yeah, I
Speaker 1: know exactly what you're saying, so they'd become you know,
Speaker 1: it's like you put on someone else's jumper and now
Speaker 1: you're like, no, this is my jumper. It's like you
Speaker 1: put on your cousin's jumper or whatever it is. I
Speaker 1: was going to say Cardigan who wears cardigans, But yeah,
Speaker 1: it's almost like they get socially by social obs osmosis.
Speaker 1: These become your beliefs. Now you're thinking, now your story
Speaker 1: is now just because of proximity to that.
Speaker 3: For so long, I'd be nothing without this, Jumper, It's
Speaker 3: not even yours. You're so mostly attached to it, Jumper,
Speaker 3: I don't even know who I am.
Speaker 1: Always good to talk, Sunshine. Bobby's podcast is called The
Speaker 1: Self Help Antidote. You can find him also at Robert
Speaker 1: Caapuccio dot com. Am I correct with that this is true?
Speaker 1: And you can find him on LinkedIn and you can
Speaker 1: find him on most street corners on a Saturday night
Speaker 1: near his house in some kind of frock usually, and
Speaker 1: also on Instagram street corners, Oh please, just some street corners.
Speaker 1: Tiffany and Cook has also a podcast called Roll with
Speaker 1: the Punches. She can also be found on Instagram Tiffany
Speaker 1: and Co. She can be found also at her house
Speaker 1: just with her pets, or the cookie shop or the
Speaker 1: cookie Shop? Did I miss out anything you too? Is
Speaker 1: there anything you want to throw in?
Speaker 3: Had a major falling out over chocolate quantity once?
Speaker 1: Well, thanks for throwing that in at the end. Did
Speaker 1: you resolve it?
Speaker 3: While yeah, I think we're getting on really well. I'm
Speaker 3: not she probably still hates me.
Speaker 1: I don't even want to ask. Bobby. We'll say goodbye, Affair,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you who that guest was right now, Tiff,
Speaker 1: thank you, Bobby, thank you,