Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is
Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.
Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired
Speaker 1: Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young, who I personally think was
Speaker 1: one of the toughest cops in New South Wales. And
Speaker 1: just by way of background, if you didn't hear part one,
Speaker 1: we work together for a very long time in homicide.
Speaker 1: We also lived together for a very long time, so
Speaker 1: there's a lot of history between the two of us.
Speaker 1: So if things are said here I'll deny it if
Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to me, but I trust you, Pam, to
Speaker 1: be kind to me.
Speaker 2: I will try.
Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about a particularly gruesome investigation
Speaker 1: that you were involved with Russell Oxford at the time,
Speaker 1: who's one of our favorites on Eye Catch Killers. It
Speaker 1: was the murder of David o'hearne and Frank r Kell,
Speaker 1: and I want to talk about that because you worked
Speaker 1: with Russell on that investigation and still to this day
Speaker 1: is one of the most sort of gruesome crime scenes
Speaker 1: I've seen and it was just a fascinating case. But
Speaker 1: before we do, and paying homage to the fact that
Speaker 1: on Eye Catch Killers, I've never had someone honor as
Speaker 1: a guest that I lived with, and people probably want
Speaker 1: to find out what it's like living in the house.
Speaker 1: We've two highly strung out homicide detectives at the same time.
Speaker 1: I'm just going to talk about one particular event that
Speaker 1: happened in now not works time, relationship time. We're at
Speaker 1: your place, at your unit, and I think we had
Speaker 1: an argument. You were clearly wrong and for whatever you said,
Speaker 1: and I, as I tend to do, like to make
Speaker 1: the big statement about how aggrieved. I am and decide, fine,
Speaker 1: I'm going to pack up and leave. The problem was,
Speaker 1: it was about twelve o'clock at night. Grabbed all my gear,
Speaker 1: all my worldly possessions, and carried them and walked to
Speaker 1: the railway station. Then at about one o'clock I'm sitting
Speaker 1: at the railway station. I was living on the Central
Speaker 1: Coast at the time I got on the train.
Speaker 2: And we were nowhere near a railway station.
Speaker 1: Yes, and I was carrying all my worldly possessions and
Speaker 1: I get on the train and some drop kick said, mate,
Speaker 1: you must have done something wrong. I've been kicked out.
Speaker 1: I tried to point out, as a matter of principle
Speaker 1: that I thought I was right in the argument. Therefore,
Speaker 1: I was going to leave regardless of what time. I
Speaker 1: got home to the Central Coast at probably about three o'clock,
Speaker 1: had an hour asleep, and then had to turn around
Speaker 1: and come back to Sydney. What made the day even
Speaker 1: more memorable, we were lecturing on the detective's training course.
Speaker 1: We're delivering eight hour lectures to I think about two
Speaker 1: hundred detectives on the one of those days on homicide investigation.
Speaker 1: To say the fact that it was a bit tense
Speaker 1: on stage is an understatement, and I think some of
Speaker 1: the some of the reviews we got on that particular
Speaker 1: day was that the lecture was very informative, but you
Speaker 1: could feel the sexual tension. Why did we put ourselves
Speaker 1: through that? Like who has an argument storms out then
Speaker 1: has to I literally said hello to you when we
Speaker 1: walked on stage, Hi, and do a lecture for eight hours.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, we were trying to encourage and raise perceptive detectives,
Speaker 2: weren't they And it showed that they we have succeeded.
Speaker 2: So yeah, we did have to hold it together a
Speaker 2: few times. Apart from anything, we're just more often than
Speaker 2: not so tired from a relentless song call. Well, and
Speaker 2: then with two of us at the same time, you
Speaker 2: lived your own call, I meaning I got to serve
Speaker 2: for your on call and you get to serve for
Speaker 2: my uncle, so effectively doing two separate lots of on call.
Speaker 1: And that's that's where it added. Because we're doing individually.
Speaker 1: You do on call once every six weeks. So, and
Speaker 1: I've explained this on the podcast. You get called if
Speaker 1: there's a murder in the state.
Speaker 2: More often than that. If you didn't have children, Yes,
Speaker 2: it's always you know, other people couldn't and you were
Speaker 2: asked to volunteer and people who didn't have children, Yes,
Speaker 2: and you can.
Speaker 1: So I'd get through an on call period and just
Speaker 1: crawl across the finishing line, and then you would would
Speaker 1: have a week's break, and then you ended up on
Speaker 1: the phone call and we go through the whole thing again.
Speaker 1: But anyway, that's where just reflecting, I'm sure you were.
Speaker 2: Did you ever make it home again?
Speaker 1: I'm sure you were wrong in that argument. I forget
Speaker 1: what it was about, but clearly it was an important issue.
Speaker 2: But you want to lessen and this is this is important.
Speaker 1: There's a few more storming out stories go. We'll talk
Speaker 1: about them them later one particular time when you're on
Speaker 1: call over Christmas, but we'll save that to another another time. Okay,
Speaker 1: the murder or the murders to murders, David Ahearn and
Speaker 1: Frank R. Kel, do you want to just talk with
Speaker 1: us about And people are interested in how you become
Speaker 1: involved in these investigations and then what happened in the investigations,
Speaker 1: So do you want to just talk us through that?
Speaker 2: Well, the famous and good Russell Oxford is the reason
Speaker 2: I was in homicide at all. He mentored me in
Speaker 2: to homicide at Northwest Crime Squad. He taught me so
Speaker 2: much and he seemed to like working with me. So
Speaker 2: with on call. He was my sergeant and he called
Speaker 2: me when that job came in. That was the second
Speaker 2: murder in what we would learn was serial murders. So
Speaker 2: Russell and I were called to the Frank r Kell murder.
Speaker 2: In particular, the lovely David O'Hearn had been murdered about
Speaker 2: just two weeks prior to that. And this is down
Speaker 2: in Wollongong Albion Park area. Yes, so fascinating crimes. So
Speaker 2: and this is in June of ninety eight, the first
Speaker 2: crime of David Lovely, a quiet living game man shop owner.
Speaker 2: He was found dead, very dead, in his lounge room.
Speaker 2: He'd been mutilated post mortem, so after dying extensively, he'd
Speaker 2: had his head removed and put in the sink, the
Speaker 2: kitchen sink, his own kitchen sink. He'd had his hand
Speaker 2: cut off and the hand, the bloody end of the
Speaker 2: hand used to write what was suggestive of Satanic references
Speaker 2: and symbols on his walls of his own home. He'd
Speaker 2: been his intestine had been removed and put symbolically on
Speaker 2: a silver tray. Other things too had happened to different
Speaker 2: parts of his body, so clearly someone very dangerous was operating.
Speaker 2: So just two weeks later, this is when Russell and
Speaker 2: I become involved. Frank Carcel, who had been the mayor
Speaker 2: of Wollongong I think for well over fifteen years or
Speaker 2: upward to twenty and certainly always a Wollongong man. He
Speaker 2: was found dead at his home in a similar area,
Speaker 2: bashed severely to the head multiple times, and also some
Speaker 2: post mortem mutilation a less degree than what I've described
Speaker 2: with Port David, but there were lapel pins type pins
Speaker 2: put into his eyeballs, for instance, and a few different things.
Speaker 1: So yeah, so can I just stop you there with
Speaker 1: that type of crime scene? What's the thing that's going
Speaker 1: through your mind? So you've got that crime scene, and
Speaker 1: then two weeks earlier there was another particularly gruesome crime scene.
Speaker 1: What's the detectives thinking at what's gone on there?
Speaker 2: On approaching it physically, I mean or just potentially.
Speaker 1: Just looking at Okay, who could have committed this? What
Speaker 1: do we yes with here? Was going through your mind
Speaker 1: and the mind of the strike force.
Speaker 2: So we did we tended to move towards it they
Speaker 2: were linked. We even had a third murder earlier that
Speaker 2: year in Sydney of a man called Trevor Parkin. He
Speaker 2: hadn't been long out of jail and he was found
Speaker 2: in again appallingly mutilated condition. So potentially we had definitely
Speaker 2: a serial killer and of the most brutal type. But
Speaker 2: personally you can't dwell on that. That's too big a concept.
Speaker 2: We've got to deal on the minutia, the tiny things.
Speaker 2: Where's the evidence, what's the evidence we're going to find here?
Speaker 2: What is important for each crime scene to be treated
Speaker 2: uniquely and the evidence individually pursued and then of course
Speaker 2: always be communicating at about links. So it did end
Speaker 2: up our hypothesis that they were linked. Certainly it was
Speaker 2: true for David o'hearne and Frank Arkel. Trevor Parkin was
Speaker 2: a separate crime and offender was charged separately for his murder.
Speaker 1: Yep. And what were the what were the links that
Speaker 1: you confidently felt that they were linked. You're taking their
Speaker 1: account the brutality of the crimeone.
Speaker 2: Yes, the physical the proximity really the two weeks apart,
Speaker 2: but they so David was a gay man. Frank though
Speaker 2: was had been charged with child child offenses. So whilst
Speaker 2: we know that gay people aren't pedophiles, it's a completely
Speaker 2: different concept and lifestyle, a lot of offenders can think
Speaker 2: that they are the same. So potentially we had an
Speaker 2: offender who thought he'd attacked two pedophiles and as it
Speaker 2: turned out, that's the case with.
Speaker 1: The pressure that's on there, and yeah, I understand it,
Speaker 1: but explain to people the pressure when you're investigating crimes
Speaker 1: like that two weeks apart, you think they're linked, when's
Speaker 1: it going to be the next person murdered that.
Speaker 2: Yes, it's exactly exactly even it's it's pressure from above
Speaker 2: about those things. It's it's they can't have deployed a
Speaker 2: team and a good team, and then while the good
Speaker 2: teams out there, then another similar crime occurred. So there's
Speaker 2: all this, uh all pressure along that line as well,
Speaker 2: and of course we don't want to do occur either.
Speaker 2: But you have to concentrate your areas in what you have,
Speaker 2: and we had two scenes and we yes, so we
Speaker 2: very much went over the history of all Longong has
Speaker 2: some quite hideous history of quite hideous crimes. They were
Speaker 2: also coming under notice as far as the Catholic church
Speaker 2: and counselors and politicians from that area for child abuse matters,
Speaker 2: it was all in that in that era. So that
Speaker 2: was a took a huge book of our time.
Speaker 1: That's telling me you've got a lot of potential persons
Speaker 1: of interesting Yes, it did.
Speaker 2: Was very wide. It also had a lot of gay
Speaker 2: beat areas, so of course we were canvassing and inquiring
Speaker 2: of anyone there if they had any one in mind
Speaker 2: or yes, or any new people in the area, or
Speaker 2: any strange behavior or conduct and things. So it was
Speaker 2: very broad and investigation under pressure because of the nature
Speaker 2: of the crimes.
Speaker 1: Yeah, what when did you think you got the breakthrough?
Speaker 1: Was there? Was there one particular breakthrough.
Speaker 2: There was, So under Russell's guidance, we had sensibly not
Speaker 2: released to the public because we know how important it
Speaker 2: is to hold back material that only the killer knows about,
Speaker 2: and it's a way that you avoid false confession. So
Speaker 2: Russell had made a good decision to not release the
Speaker 2: fact that clothing, so tracksuit pants and boots not belonging
Speaker 2: to Frank kel To were found at the scene with Frank.
Speaker 2: So the assumption is they belonged to the killer. So
Speaker 2: we held on to that information because we wanted to
Speaker 2: catch the killer with the other piece of the tracksuit
Speaker 2: and potentially replaced brand new desert boots. But it got
Speaker 2: to a point of that that holding off didn't work,
Speaker 2: so we did release. We got the mannequins, as you
Speaker 2: do on extensive media coverage with exactly the same but
Speaker 2: new clothing. We got a lot of information.
Speaker 1: And the appeal does anyone recognize.
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, okay, So we did get a lot of
Speaker 2: responsible One in particular was a young woman who said, oh,
Speaker 2: my boyfriend, he loves his desert boots and I can't
Speaker 2: remember seeing him wear them for a few weeks now.
Speaker 2: So just simple things you can that can be overlooked
Speaker 2: in the sea of other people who say, oh, you
Speaker 2: know the neighbor you have desert boots too, I haven't
Speaker 2: seen them, and the little things details, it is those details.
Speaker 2: So we were honing in then on her boyfriend, who
Speaker 2: was a nineteen year old called Mark van Krevel. At
Speaker 2: the same time with the other strike force, the one
Speaker 2: looking at the murder of David o'hearne, they noted that
Speaker 2: Mark van Krevell was an alibi to one of their suspects.
Speaker 2: Of they had many suspects, but he was an alibi
Speaker 2: to one of their suspects, so we had another possible link, tenuous,
Speaker 2: tenuous link. And then we looked at the various crime
Speaker 2: scene logs that we kept at our scene over a
Speaker 2: number of days and there was an entry there for
Speaker 2: an inquiry by Mark van Krevel. So he had been
Speaker 2: to the scene of Frank's home in the days when
Speaker 2: the police were controlling the scene. So that then led
Speaker 2: to us desperately wanting his fingerprints. He was a clean skin,
Speaker 2: so no history. We did have Prince at David O'Hearn's home,
Speaker 2: so it was one of the first ops that went around.
Speaker 2: We got our surveillance teams to follow him around whilst
Speaker 2: he went about his street walks, knowing nothing about him,
Speaker 2: hoping he might drink something glass or eat something from
Speaker 2: a nice shiny, clean surface and discard it. And it
Speaker 2: was many days went into that, but we did get
Speaker 2: his fingerprints on a coke bottle that he discarded into
Speaker 2: a public bin. The fun jobs we police get to
Speaker 2: do because it was clearly and you couldn't get you
Speaker 2: couldn't wait to have it, you know, down the bottom
Speaker 2: of other people's discarded Russia rubbish. So we had to
Speaker 2: he had to be seen putting it in because it
Speaker 2: was going to be evidence. He had to be seen
Speaker 2: putting it in photographic scene, visually scene. He had to
Speaker 2: be far enough away for them for the surveillance the
Speaker 2: dogs dive in and grab it before the people in
Speaker 2: the busy woong streets filled it up with other things,
Speaker 2: because then you can't distinguish his from theirs. They did
Speaker 2: really well, and we ended up with his print matching
Speaker 2: to the Ohn scene. Plus then you know it's nothing
Speaker 2: or everything. At the same time, he in the alibi
Speaker 2: statement that he'd given for the Dava Aherne matter, alibying
Speaker 2: one of their suspects. We got his statement out, original statement,
Speaker 2: not the one now, on a electronic, yes, electronic one,
Speaker 2: and fingerprinted it. So it was his statement with his
Speaker 2: name on it, with his prints on it that matched
Speaker 2: the coke bottle, the statement page, and the wall. So
Speaker 2: we had him for O'Hern's and we were ready to really.
Speaker 1: There's there's pressure on there because you're at the stage
Speaker 1: where you make a pressure. Ideally you wouldn't have to,
Speaker 1: but you can't. You can't let him run and let someone.
Speaker 2: Can't get him run, and at the same time he
Speaker 2: could be innocent. So yeah, pressure was run and we
Speaker 2: were ready to know. We knew. We were at a
Speaker 2: stage after I can't remember how long that job went.
Speaker 2: Might have been a year, I can't remember, but it
Speaker 2: wasn't a short job. Short term job and building up
Speaker 2: to it. And then I'm staying down there and I
Speaker 2: get the call from Wollongong to say, oh a taekwond
Speaker 2: instructor has brought in his student students' names, Mark van Krevell.
Speaker 2: He wants to confess to the murders and it was
Speaker 2: a gift, so so we yes, so it's just all
Speaker 2: hands on deck. That night he made a full confession
Speaker 2: and then Russell and Joe Cassa did an excellent walkthrough
Speaker 2: interview with him. Some people have criticized that interview for
Speaker 2: saying that, you know, Russell's too prescriptive, but I keep
Speaker 2: I see even now, I want to say that's because
Speaker 2: Russell well knew because he'd done the earlier interview, that
Speaker 2: the confession that Van Crreeville had given was full and
Speaker 2: Frank and Russell was just making sure that no detail
Speaker 2: was missed at the scene. It was just a cover
Speaker 2: cover off. So the apart from the hideous crimes and
Speaker 2: the fact he went out with Paul David o'han, he
Speaker 2: just went out wanting to know what it felt like
Speaker 2: to kill somebody. That's more or less a quote with
Speaker 2: Frank r Kel. He suggested he was a bad man,
Speaker 2: but that was really played more once he was in
Speaker 2: defense mode and was learning about charges and things, so
Speaker 2: he tried that. So the striking thing this is this
Speaker 2: endless curiosity that the job allows us to learn these things.
Speaker 2: He had no hesitation, not even a change of a
Speaker 2: voice or a look on his face when he's describing
Speaker 2: in detail what he did to those men and their bodies.
Speaker 2: Not hesitation. This is an nineteen year old. But if
Speaker 2: in the interview, if he swore he went into profuse
Speaker 2: apologies because he knew that was rude. That wasn't the
Speaker 2: type of manners he was brought up to. His expression fascinating, fascinating,
Speaker 2: So it was okay to murder, mutilate, and describe, but
Speaker 2: not to use a swear word. It just it is fascinating. Yeah,
Speaker 2: So he's he got He was the youngest person to
Speaker 2: get to two life sentences, but under the which was
Speaker 2: brand new at the time and never to be released scheme.
Speaker 2: So he's he's still in of course.
Speaker 1: I think I bumped into him in prison.
Speaker 2: I was going to say, not.
Speaker 1: Shop.
Speaker 2: He was a great sweeper. He did great sweeping.
Speaker 1: If it is, I think it was him just put
Speaker 1: on a lot of weight and living there. Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, look, he he had a shocking upbringing, as so
Speaker 2: many sadly do, but nonetheless.
Speaker 1: Upbringing. But there's even the further twist to this this story.
Speaker 1: Do you want take us there? Yeah?
Speaker 2: So again I can't remember the timeframe wasn't too long after.
Speaker 2: So Mark van Kreville is in the court system well
Speaker 2: and truly when his sister is picked up for soliciting
Speaker 2: her boyfriend, Shriy Shriver to murder her father, saw also
Speaker 2: Mark van Krevel's father with an axe, and he did
Speaker 2: so successfully. So you've got the brother, the sister, and
Speaker 2: their friend up for really shocking offenses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty chilly offenses. Even in all all that we're saying,
Speaker 1: that sort of sticks in your mind. Working on a
Speaker 1: job like that, the pressure, the brutality, the just the
Speaker 1: horribleness of it. Does it change your view on humanity.
Speaker 1: Does it do you look at people a little bit differently?
Speaker 1: Does it effect you at all?
Speaker 2: So the answer is yes. I can only say yes
Speaker 2: so firmly because I've learned that it did affect me,
Speaker 2: and not necessarily that job. There's a category of jobs.
Speaker 2: I believe all jobs affect us. It is unnatural for
Speaker 2: any human to look on the violent death of another
Speaker 2: human being. It's unnatural, but someone has to do it.
Speaker 2: It can't be done by anyone else. It has to
Speaker 2: be done by investigators, and then doctors and forensic pathologists,
Speaker 2: and then there's the photos to Everyone needs to look
Speaker 2: at it, so it has to be done. But it
Speaker 2: is unnatural and it must affect everyone, and does affect everyone.
Speaker 2: It's whether you acknowledge it and to what extent. So
Speaker 2: my answer is yes, it affected me, but not in
Speaker 2: relation to what I think about humanity. I think the
Speaker 2: thing that has allowed me to cope is that being
Speaker 2: so close to death, seeing how death is brought about violently,
Speaker 2: Seeing whilst it's a devastating impact, but it's limited in
Speaker 2: the population. And if it wasn't for media and other
Speaker 2: interested groups wanting using fear as a means to get ratings.
Speaker 2: I think the community as a whole would feel more
Speaker 2: relaxed about the community because I have been up close
Speaker 2: in the face, standing in the middle of the very
Speaker 2: worst of humanity, and I still believe in it. I
Speaker 2: still know the vast majority of people are good people,
Speaker 2: But I do I have come away with triggers that
Speaker 2: spontaneous reactions are to various visual signs and colors, such
Speaker 2: is the color of blood, for instance, trigger triggers around
Speaker 2: violence towards women. I do think, uh that I'm particularly
Speaker 2: still and I think I always will be triggered by
Speaker 2: violence towards women. Can I get do we have time?
Speaker 2: I tell you the most bizarre, I mean, I still
Speaker 2: think it's bizarre.
Speaker 1: Run this podcast.
Speaker 2: The most and part of it, like you know, it
Speaker 2: upsets me. But I think it's such a clear it's
Speaker 2: such a clear demonstration to me that what what emergency
Speaker 2: services face. It's not me. I'm not weaker or stronger
Speaker 2: than anybody else, but it played out this way. It
Speaker 2: was so I went to I went to Spain. I
Speaker 2: was in Barcelona and walking down that is it the Rombulus,
Speaker 2: that it's the riverbank area that they've converted into a
Speaker 2: a center pedestrian wide pedestrian mall effectively leading from the
Speaker 2: city park down to the water. Beautiful, beautiful, yes. And
Speaker 2: on either side there's two lane roads, busy roads, and shops.
Speaker 2: It densely packed shops on either side across the road.
Speaker 2: So I'm walking in the middle on a holiday and
Speaker 2: I'm hearing I hear yelling, and I look to my
Speaker 2: right and I see there's a woman, a black woman,
Speaker 2: being held her. She's got her arms held back, held
Speaker 2: at her back by two or three men, and there
Speaker 2: are other men yelling at her in the face, and
Speaker 2: she's yelling back. She's giving as good as she's getting verbally,
Speaker 2: though she's being restrained. I just summed it up. I thought,
Speaker 2: possibly she's a shoplifter and she's been yelled at by
Speaker 2: the person who owns the shop. She was the woman
Speaker 2: in that area. Everyone else was men, and I just thought,
Speaker 2: I just took it in. I clocked it our tom
Speaker 2: So then I just looked again and I saw a
Speaker 2: man come from behind the two interested groups come from behind,
Speaker 2: walk in front to her and punched her with all
Speaker 2: his might, straight in her face. I saw that. Now.
Speaker 2: The next thing I know, the very next thing I
Speaker 2: know is I come to over on the footpath. So
Speaker 2: I've left this wide mal area, got across two lanes
Speaker 2: of traffic. I'm standing on the footpath with her at
Speaker 2: my back, staring at the man who's punched her to stop,
Speaker 2: to stop. What is I don't know what he's going
Speaker 2: to stop if he was going to hit her again,
Speaker 2: I was. I have no idea how I got from
Speaker 2: in the middle of the mall to in the middle
Speaker 2: of them. So I come to and then logic comes
Speaker 2: in and think, well, they're all speaking Spanish. I don't
Speaker 2: speak Spanish. I'm not in the police force over here.
Speaker 2: I'm in the new Southwest place. What am I doing here?
Speaker 2: What can I do? So I'm just going like this
Speaker 2: and making sweet smiling faces, and the men that weren't him,
Speaker 2: they settle it. They see themselves.
Speaker 1: That's gone.
Speaker 2: That's gone too far. And I was with some friends
Speaker 2: and I thought, my goodness, I'm going to have to
Speaker 2: explain what just happened. So I'm walking back fully, conscious,
Speaker 2: crossing the road carefully. It was very busy road. Getting
Speaker 2: in the middle again. I'm ready to I'm thinking, excuse, excuse,
Speaker 2: what can I excuse me for? Explaining that bizarre, bizarre
Speaker 2: behavior and came back in. The first thing they say is, oh,
Speaker 2: you're so brave you went to help that woman. And
Speaker 2: I left it that I wasn't going to say. Look,
Speaker 2: it was something. It was literally it was a trigger,
Speaker 2: a PTSD related trigger around the safety of women, a woman,
Speaker 2: a stranger woman, a stranger woman in a foreign country,
Speaker 2: a stranger woman in a foreign country who's committed a crime.
Speaker 2: So it doesn't matter, it's that trigger. I think what
Speaker 2: gets inside that you cannot intellectualize a way.
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing it, because I have spoken to other
Speaker 1: police officers that if they talk about how it's affected them,
Speaker 1: and there's strange situations like that where they just they're
Speaker 1: standing in the middle of the road, don't know what
Speaker 1: they're doing, just different things like that. Yeah, that's part
Speaker 1: of the policing. But it's in your instinct too. I
Speaker 1: know you well enough to know you can't stand by
Speaker 1: whether it was a perceived injustice, but probably a bit
Speaker 1: stupid in that environment you could have you didn't know
Speaker 1: what you're walking.
Speaker 2: Into, Yes, but the thing so you say stupid and
Speaker 2: I know jubil and you don't think PTSD really exists.
Speaker 2: I know that about you because I just know because
Speaker 2: we've talked about it. So even for you to say,
Speaker 2: even you keep believing that, so you even in that
Speaker 2: sentence you said, probably a bit silly, of course you
Speaker 2: couldn't really help that woman. You've missed the whole The
Speaker 2: whole thing is is I was not conscious of what
Speaker 2: I was doing. A trigger. You've you're a gunman, you've
Speaker 2: pulled a few that that trigger in me was I
Speaker 2: must must protect that woman.
Speaker 1: I must have been born with PTS.
Speaker 2: Then, oh, look, that's not beyond the realms. You're still
Speaker 2: getting over your dad. Well it is if you think
Speaker 2: trauma is is a normal state because you had it
Speaker 2: since childhood. So police, the addition of police trauma is
Speaker 2: just a normal life.
Speaker 1: Anyway. We'll move on from that. So chaos is a
Speaker 1: norm anyway. What's the next topic? Does it change view
Speaker 1: on humanity?
Speaker 2: Encyclopedia past.
Speaker 1: Let's go to a happy, happy, happy topic, our role models.
Speaker 1: I hope it steers towards Russell ox With and Paul
Speaker 1: Jacob because we had a lot of fun when we're
Speaker 1: senior constables talking about our respective sergeants. Mine was Paul
Speaker 1: Jacob and yours was Russell Ocks with great detectives, and
Speaker 1: that they tore us, tore us so much. But were
Speaker 1: they the softest people in the history of the world. Yeah.
Speaker 2: We used to say to each other like I'd say,
Speaker 2: you know, my sergeant's nicer than yours, and you said, no,
Speaker 2: my sergeant's nicer than yours, and this little affectionate bantering.
Speaker 1: What I like about both them that I think they
Speaker 1: were rock solid, strong human beings, but they kept a
Speaker 1: humanity to them the whole true and taught them well,
Speaker 1: taught me, probably taught you a lot too, because I
Speaker 1: was somewhat angry as you might, and intense, and the
Speaker 1: same become as a surprise.
Speaker 2: I reflect, you see if I can to remember.
Speaker 1: But they the things I learned off Jacob, how he
Speaker 1: is so inclusive in running a strike because everyone was involved,
Speaker 1: from the most junior person as a senior person. Everyone
Speaker 1: felt like they were contributing tension, the detail. I couldn't
Speaker 1: understand why we're sitting there eleven o'clock at nine. I
Speaker 1: wanted to go home. I'm tired and all that. But
Speaker 1: just attention the details, thoroughness. Yes, and we were fortunate
Speaker 1: to have two role models like that. Because I know
Speaker 1: you you think highly.
Speaker 2: Of very sustaining, sustaining with your Jacob, your Jacob by Jacob.
Speaker 2: That he would expressly use the word love when he
Speaker 2: spoke to people, when he was appreciating their efforts and
Speaker 2: their good work, and he would say, and I love
Speaker 2: you two cops of all genders, so repeatedly it was
Speaker 2: and it was natural. It wasn't genuine, it was genuine,
Speaker 2: you know that easily accepted philosophy. Now, there's so many
Speaker 2: types of love with Russell, just a little demo it
Speaker 2: comes to mind, for instance, how nice he was, because
Speaker 2: he was so always so good with keeping standards and
Speaker 2: explaining the need for preservation and why things were done
Speaker 2: in a certain way. But if he found an officer
Speaker 2: at a crime scene with their boot ever so slightly
Speaker 2: over the top of any sort of blood trace, he's
Speaker 2: here was the type of nice person. He'd go up
Speaker 2: and say, look it's Bill, isn't it Bill? See how
Speaker 2: your foot is there on the blood. I think you
Speaker 2: should take your boot off, and you're going to be
Speaker 2: now and we're going to carry you out so that
Speaker 2: there's no other disermancy. Would you mind and just just
Speaker 2: take a couple of minutes to get where everything. Will
Speaker 2: do that, That's what Roussill would do, Whereas I would
Speaker 2: have spotted him at the door, Bill and I said,
Speaker 2: I have said, fucking Bill, take your built off and
Speaker 2: you're going to walk home back to the station in
Speaker 2: your socks. Look at what you've done a different So same,
Speaker 2: that's and they showed it. They showed how you could
Speaker 2: be professional and respected and be kind and be good.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know because we've spoken about it so often.
Speaker 1: I just feel lucky that we got to work under
Speaker 1: people like that that could mentor us carry those.
Speaker 2: I want to mention two other role models, Kim mackay
Speaker 2: she and Maria Russia. They made it to superintendent long
Speaker 2: before my sights set on those positions, and they both
Speaker 2: headed up the arduous, tough child protection units at separate times.
Speaker 2: And Kim she was the commander for those shocking strike
Speaker 2: for Sedah, a multiple serial Lebanese Australian related sexual assaults
Speaker 2: across Sydney of women and girls. Blao scaf is still
Speaker 2: serving time in jail. He was a pack leader. She
Speaker 2: did a great job holding the office together and assisted
Speaker 2: those resolving those shocking crimes. Plus yeah, so her strength
Speaker 2: was about how to look after stuff, not so I
Speaker 2: got from Russell about how to look after crime scenes
Speaker 2: and from came about staff. With Maria. She fought tooth
Speaker 2: and nail to have child protection matters acknowledged properly. Their
Speaker 2: volume crime they.
Speaker 1: Were when Maria was running that, it was just a
Speaker 1: horrible time for him because I was overworked.
Speaker 2: No one gave him the respect, no one gave and
Speaker 2: we're tooking in people inside like their bosses, including just
Speaker 2: with the volume crime. Remember any any crime had to
Speaker 2: be reported on a sit reper situation report. Maria was
Speaker 2: faced with the situation where with chart abuse, there were
Speaker 2: so many sit reps. They were following policy and submitting
Speaker 2: them to the our directors executive and Maria's boss effectively tot,
Speaker 2: don't send them through anymore. There's too many for us
Speaker 2: to read. It's not oh there's so many, we will
Speaker 2: get you more staff, or we will let's see if
Speaker 2: we can help. It was don't send them. So it
Speaker 2: was less acknowledged, less acknowledged, yeah, because they weren't reading
Speaker 2: what was happening. So it was a very disturbing time,
Speaker 2: and Maria was successfully fought against that. So I still
Speaker 2: say street cops and child protection workers have the toughest gigs.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the two that you mentioned, and I worked
Speaker 1: with Kim. I wasn't in homicide. She was in homicide,
Speaker 1: and I remember she came out to one of the
Speaker 1: first homicides I worked on. Very impressed by her, and
Speaker 1: the team were working and Maria. I tried. I think
Speaker 1: I tried to get it might have been through you
Speaker 1: tried to get Maria on the podcast years ago. But yeah, both,
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've given them a share out because again,
Speaker 1: they got through as females in a tough, tough male environment.
Speaker 2: Kim was the first boss to extend emotional support to me,
Speaker 2: first and only boss, and that's when I'm a very
Speaker 2: senior sergeant by then. And she was.
Speaker 1: With sex crime.
Speaker 2: Yes, she offered a sabbatical. She saw it was never
Speaker 2: I've had some very good bosses, but not once offered
Speaker 2: emotional support. Yeah, so there you go.
Speaker 1: Oh well, no, they deserve a mention. All right. I
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about and we don't have to talk
Speaker 1: about it long, but I think it's worth talking about
Speaker 1: it that we're both in major crime. When the Royal
Speaker 1: Commission came for and yeah, I was in North region,
Speaker 1: you're in Northwest. Both regions were hit pretty pretty hard
Speaker 1: with the Royal Commission. I often get asked about about
Speaker 1: those times, and you know, you can't shy away from it.
Speaker 1: There was corruption in the in the police, and that
Speaker 1: was in the work environments that we worked. I'm talking
Speaker 1: about the after effects of it that I really felt
Speaker 1: that as detectives, I felt shame for what had been exposed.
Speaker 1: And I choose my words here carefully because there's some
Speaker 1: people that needed to be Yeah, they were bad and
Speaker 1: they were using the job to do whatever they were doing.
Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't police were But I say this was
Speaker 1: some weak people that were caught up in it because
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to say that. You and I
Speaker 1: navigated our way through that, but we could stand up
Speaker 1: for ourselves. I saw some people get caught up because
Speaker 1: just the influence of the group and they were caught up.
Speaker 1: What's your take on those times?
Speaker 2: Well, I would start with saying the command can you
Speaker 2: know had so many more people who were not corrupt
Speaker 2: than the smaller number that was so speaking of Chriss
Speaker 2: God Northwest, if I just remember correctly, we had about
Speaker 2: one hundred, let's say one hundred and twenty with child protection,
Speaker 2: of which three, five, seven, let's even double at fifteen,
Speaker 2: let's say in the drug squad in particular, and I
Speaker 2: think only in the drug squad, and I think the
Speaker 2: number is closed to five. By the way, were targeted
Speaker 2: rightly and were caught out rightly. So even then, in
Speaker 2: the dark days before the Royal Commission, we really were good.
Speaker 1: We were good.
Speaker 2: If anything, I've seen more negligence or laziness. Corruption to
Speaker 2: me is a smaller concern. Whenever it is, it's bad
Speaker 2: and it needs to be rooted up. But my goodness,
Speaker 2: it's more. There are more crimes left unsolved or were convictions.
Speaker 2: Even good briefs is evidence that at the end of
Speaker 2: the day, I don't hold through negligence and laziness disorganization.
Speaker 1: At last, young, I've found someone that I've been trying
Speaker 1: to articulate that very thing. Yeah, I was in major
Speaker 1: crime when the Royal Commission came through and they identified corruption.
Speaker 1: Do I think that corruption was worse than some of
Speaker 1: the stuff I see now by not properly resourcing or
Speaker 1: properly investigating things, No, I don't. I Yeah, that was bad,
Speaker 1: but it's just as bad to not properly resource an
Speaker 1: investigation or lie to the public, or even worse, lie
Speaker 1: to victims about what's been done on an investigation. We
Speaker 1: jake and we're not into bashing bashing the police. We
Speaker 1: both love the police. So I'm choosing my words here carefully,
Speaker 1: but telling people there's a strike force running on this
Speaker 1: when the strike force was basically one person and little
Speaker 1: things like that. So I do understand what you're saying.
Speaker 2: Yes, but sometimes that's the fact, and that's only possible
Speaker 2: because of the disparity between the number of let's say
Speaker 2: cold case it's just to grab a sample area cold
Speaker 2: case alongside, and the number of stuff. So it's not, oh,
Speaker 2: there are other stuff that could be used, but we're
Speaker 2: only going to give it one stuff. It's just no,
Speaker 2: there's no movement, there's no fat, there's no reserve bench.
Speaker 2: So the it's a huge question what is the proper
Speaker 2: resourcing as in staff positions two properly work through crimes,
Speaker 2: all crimes and crimes.
Speaker 1: And we've both been in management, so we understand that
Speaker 1: the resources are limited and they've got to be put
Speaker 1: where that they can be best utilized. But yeah, I
Speaker 1: do see. You know, it's all right saying that was
Speaker 1: a corrupt days we've cleared up the corruption. But don't
Speaker 1: think just because it's all polished up and looking shiny
Speaker 1: and the media are reporting all nice things about the police.
Speaker 1: Everything has been done properly.
Speaker 2: Now, I do think that that's twenty five, wasn't it,
Speaker 2: that wood Rold commission, So that that was on the
Speaker 2: back of that heroine trade worldwide, that that addiction with.
Speaker 2: You know, no one sees anything like that now, No
Speaker 2: one sees the damage to individuals and the community through.
Speaker 2: We saw it and we attempted to lock up a
Speaker 2: few people with it, but that then seeped into for instance,
Speaker 2: drug squads.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's also a reflection on society too. It
Speaker 1: wasn't just a police so there's people outside of the police,
Speaker 1: where it be politicians or others called up in the whole.
Speaker 2: Yes, and greedy people we know well at Northwest who
Speaker 2: were charged or certainly named and really greedy, small minded, unethical, lazy,
Speaker 2: lacking self esteem. I thought they were tough guys, thought exactly,
Speaker 2: you know that that's the type.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. But anyway, the point I want to
Speaker 1: make with that whole Royal Commission. I felt aggrieved as
Speaker 1: detectives because our reputation was just sullied within our own organization,
Speaker 1: within the public. Yes, and people like yourself myself have
Speaker 1: been through it. We had the fight to get that
Speaker 1: reputation back.
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, and the thing and it comes in
Speaker 2: with a few other things that played. But that was
Speaker 2: the first example to me, demonstration to me of how
Speaker 2: the police force as a whole, but meaning really the
Speaker 2: individuals in it are offered up as sacrifices to social
Speaker 2: ills or political aims. The cops and we've seen time
Speaker 2: and time again and very recently seen as the whipping post,
Speaker 2: the whipping boy of lack of proper policy or budget. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so that was the first example to me of media
Speaker 2: and politicians and interest groups being allowed to go for
Speaker 2: the I call us the low hanging fruit, the cops.
Speaker 2: And it's convenient for others above us, who really could
Speaker 2: control and assist and support more, because it's a lovely
Speaker 2: distraction to their neglect or lack of budget or something,
Speaker 2: or lack of properly resourcing the police force. So yeah,
Speaker 2: so I'd like the public to be a little bit
Speaker 2: more aware of that.
Speaker 1: Okay, that brings us to a nice segue because I
Speaker 1: was going to I wanted to. At the start of
Speaker 1: this episode, I talked about toughest cop in New South
Speaker 1: Wales because people all asking me who's the toughest cop
Speaker 1: in New South Wales and they think I'll be saying
Speaker 1: someone and go paym young. All right, where's that come from?
Speaker 1: You have a you don't shy away from what needs
Speaker 1: to be said. I've collected a couple of examples here
Speaker 1: and I just I'll talk you through it and you
Speaker 1: can explain your position, Okay. So Pam was an association rep,
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police Association. The rep the association
Speaker 1: reps go on what they call the annual Conference and
Speaker 1: it's usually at this some swish, beautiful five star resort
Speaker 1: for three or four days of just paling around and
Speaker 1: discussing the important stuff, looking after the people they're here
Speaker 1: to support. Pam goes to this and I think it
Speaker 1: was on the central coast. Was it that the Crown
Speaker 1: not the Crown All.
Speaker 2: Those five star hotels are inside. It's hard to take.
Speaker 1: These are our association reps and there looking after looking
Speaker 1: after the working men. And so they have the meeting
Speaker 1: women and women. Of course, yeah, correct me, they have
Speaker 1: the has anyone got any motions to put forward? And
Speaker 1: I think Pam put a hand up and said, yes,
Speaker 1: do we really have to waste our members' money staying
Speaker 1: in these luxury resorts? Couldn't we have this conference at
Speaker 1: police headquarters? Why are we wasting their money?
Speaker 2: No?
Speaker 1: One second draw and there was just silence. Yes, I
Speaker 1: think you were right in what you said, but it
Speaker 1: doesn't make you popular.
Speaker 2: No all successful, No popularity, no success. Oh and I
Speaker 2: just do plug for the association though they do some
Speaker 2: excellent work supporting members, including myself as things went.
Speaker 1: Right, So now you've sold out, now you want them
Speaker 1: back in the luxury resorts. But I thought that was
Speaker 1: a reasonable point, at least at warrants for discussion. The
Speaker 1: fact that no one second your motion was a bit sad. Anyway,
Speaker 1: another great Pam Young moment. It was in the homicide
Speaker 1: office New South Wales Police had become bankrupt apparently, or
Speaker 1: so we were told. So we had the works work
Speaker 1: on murder investigations, but they couldn't pay us over time.
Speaker 1: We couldn't travel. I was doing an investigation around the
Speaker 1: state that I couldn't travel. It was just it was ridiculous.
Speaker 1: It got they were.
Speaker 2: Going to remove the water. We weren't allowed to have.
Speaker 1: The water just we had run out of money apparently,
Speaker 1: And so there was a lot of agitating, especially from
Speaker 1: us at homicide because it was really impacting on important investigations,
Speaker 1: and we got the police minister there and I forget
Speaker 1: who it was at the time, but it was a
Speaker 1: fairly intense meeting, like a lot of people in homicide
Speaker 1: not backwards and coming forward and say what needs to
Speaker 1: be said. But there was one comment that stood out
Speaker 1: from everyone else when Pam speaking to the minister saying, well,
Speaker 1: perhaps here at homicide we should just strive for mediocrity.
Speaker 1: Is that what you want us to do? Strive for mediocrity?
Speaker 2: I think he agreed that we did get some money.
Speaker 2: We did, I miss god, he didn't. He didn't agree
Speaker 2: we should strive for mediocrity. And yes he did deliver.
Speaker 2: He said he pointed at me and he said you're
Speaker 2: a cynic, which I thought was the opposite of what
Speaker 2: I and then he did. The budget was increased.
Speaker 1: Yes, we got it significantly increased, and we're actually allowed
Speaker 1: to go back to work and do some work. So
Speaker 1: just another one, and we're going to talk about this
Speaker 1: in part three of we're going in the four parts
Speaker 1: to just I'm breaking that to you now now. The
Speaker 1: only other people that have gone into four parts on
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers is Graham Abbot, Henry Oh you followed
Speaker 1: notorious company stand over against the Man. He's been a
Speaker 1: guest favorite here and also Russell Loxford. So you're in
Speaker 1: good company in company. Nick Klos only made three episodes.
Speaker 2: Don't let him know that.
Speaker 1: No, he'll come back and demand another two. That's because
Speaker 1: he's so busy. Okay, you were put in a position
Speaker 1: of heading up and you were, in fact the first
Speaker 1: female to have this position heading up the detective training
Speaker 1: unit and very important role, and we're going to talk
Speaker 1: more in detail. I just want to talk about one
Speaker 1: aspected the detective's training unit. I remember remember at the time,
Speaker 1: you were getting into a lot of trouble and there
Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure because you decided that although
Speaker 1: the politicians had promised and the senior police had promised
Speaker 1: more detectives, you weren't going to pass the majority of
Speaker 1: them because they weren't up to a standard that you
Speaker 1: considered acceptable. How did that get pet.
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe. To me, it was quite bizarre these
Speaker 2: discussions and debates on changing the standard, like lowering the
Speaker 2: past mark to like below fifty for recruiting purposes. And
Speaker 2: I clearly this a balance has to be struck. But
Speaker 2: it was to me like a no brainer that if
Speaker 2: they didn't pass the exams, then they probably.
Speaker 1: Should because in your in your position, you had to
Speaker 1: sign off on the people are ready to go out
Speaker 1: work with other detectives.
Speaker 2: Yes, be designated to lead and to lead others and
Speaker 2: to take charge of entire crime scenes, of which are
Speaker 2: many of them are major crime scenes. So I was
Speaker 2: a long debate, and I kept pushing back, and the
Speaker 2: push was from people more senior to me, entrenched in
Speaker 2: the world of the academy and believing it was possible.
Speaker 2: I did get a lot of assistance from State Crime
Speaker 2: Command who are agreed that people probably should pass their exams.
Speaker 1: It sounds like a fairly concept, you know, with it,
Speaker 1: you have exams so you can pass.
Speaker 2: And State Crime had a role as the lead detective advisor,
Speaker 2: and I was. I was had an inaugural position on
Speaker 2: the first advisory panel to the Deputy Commissioner. And so
Speaker 2: that's the argument that the people who failed should be
Speaker 2: passed was lost. It was just the bizarre nature of
Speaker 2: having to argue it in the first place.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know how much it pissed you off,
Speaker 1: and that pissed me off and a lot of other
Speaker 1: people that don't. It should be something that we set standards.
Speaker 1: We should strive for those standards and be proud of
Speaker 1: because I remember when I got my detective's designation, because
Speaker 1: we had to work so hard, I was so proud.
Speaker 1: It was one of the proudest moments in the comps.
Speaker 1: Walk out and you can finally cook yourself and you're.
Speaker 2: Getting them standard not just of taking lead on jobs
Speaker 2: and communicating with their bosses so that there's the informations
Speaker 2: correct arguing for resources. It's beyond that. Is there going
Speaker 2: to be in court facing the top lawyers, criminal law lawyers,
Speaker 2: some of them unprincipled, who were going to cross examine them,
Speaker 2: tackle them, make them look like idiots. Our role, My
Speaker 2: role was to put them in the first position to
Speaker 2: get the conviction and to not look like an idiot.
Speaker 2: So passing exams is kind of part of it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look where that got you young to try
Speaker 1: and take it all too serious. Okay, we're going to
Speaker 1: finish off part two with a fun fact. It's a
Speaker 1: bit embarrassing, but I'm ready. I'm not sure if I am.
Speaker 1: I kick you on this well, we.
Speaker 2: Can kick you onto this table, can't.
Speaker 1: What was I thinking when I wrote this down? But anyway, now,
Speaker 1: when we first got together, I expressed an interest in
Speaker 1: you and you knocked me back. And but you said
Speaker 1: you admired my courage for being game enough to ask
Speaker 1: you out, because most men are scared of you. And
Speaker 1: let me tell you that that is true, because everyone
Speaker 1: in the office feared you. And when eventually you came
Speaker 1: to your senses and you decided to go out with me,
Speaker 1: everyone kept saying, jeez, you must be brave, as in
Speaker 1: I must be brave. Question I'm going to ask in
Speaker 1: the question I want brave?
Speaker 2: But you are very happy, brave.
Speaker 1: And very content and very happy. Can I just ask
Speaker 1: you this? And this is how we'll finish off part two?
Speaker 1: Why do you think you're so intimidating?
Speaker 2: H This is when I haven't put my mind to
Speaker 2: might come in two parts a bit to day and
Speaker 2: another time. Oh I think you know what I think
Speaker 2: because I'm genuine I think because I speak my mind
Speaker 2: and that people know what they're dealing with, that I'm
Speaker 2: not inclined to be susceptible to peer group pressure. That
Speaker 2: some loyalty in the police requires a person to be
Speaker 2: susceptible to peer group pressure and to be agreeable or
Speaker 2: supportive against their own principles. I think it just our
Speaker 2: our job is very much played out, that we're always communicating,
Speaker 2: so much about communication, and so I just think people
Speaker 2: hear me speak occasionally might say something correct or clever
Speaker 2: or certainly clear, and I and other people don't might
Speaker 2: not have the clarity on it is that I don't know.
Speaker 1: I reckon that I wear boots. You've just given people
Speaker 1: a good understanding why I was nervous asking you out.
Speaker 1: I discussed it with my mate Jason, and he's a
Speaker 1: he's a.
Speaker 2: A lovely man. He gave you your whole personality.
Speaker 1: Well, so he says, I reckon. I had agree, but
Speaker 1: I said, I think I'm going to ask me out.
Speaker 1: He's going I don't get that wrong. It could be ugly,
Speaker 1: could be ugly, but anyway, that's a nice way to finish.
Speaker 1: Finish part two. When we get back for Part three,
Speaker 1: We've got a lot more to talk about. And one
Speaker 1: of the cases that I want to talk about because
Speaker 1: I reckon that's one of the most significant cases in
Speaker 1: the in the country, the family law court bombings, and
Speaker 1: you led that investigation successfully after a very long time,
Speaker 1: and I want to dive deep into that investigation because
Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating. But the magnitude of that crime,
Speaker 1: I just I think we've missed the point of how
Speaker 1: significant that was. Where judges places have been.
Speaker 2: There well, it has been described and the Prime Minister
Speaker 2: at the time came out and formed the largest strikeforce
Speaker 2: that had ever been of combined federal military and New
Speaker 2: South Wales police. Really significant. It has been described as
Speaker 2: the most significant case of domestic terrorism ever in the country.
Speaker 2: And it was a very cold case when I got it,
Speaker 2: and you might hear that we breathed some life into it.
Speaker 1: We might hear that. So that'll be on part three
Speaker 1: when you come back. We've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamela.
Speaker 2: Young And why do you think I'm intimidating.
Speaker 1: And when we get back to part when we get
Speaker 1: back to part three, oh, I answer that question. Why
Speaker 1: I think you're intimidating, because Jesus, if you fuck up,
Speaker 1: you're in trouble, all right, thank you,