WEBVTT - Catching a satanic murderer: Pamela Young Pt.2 0:00:01.960 --> 0:00:04.960 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.440 --> 0:00:07.840 Detective see a side of life the average person is 0:00:07.920 --> 0:00:11.160 never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.640 --> 0:00:14.080 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.480 --> 0:00:16.279 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.280 --> 0:00:20.600 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.640 --> 0:00:23.200 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.880 --> 0:00:26.480 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.480 --> 0:00:28.840 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.880 --> 0:00:31.520 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.640 --> 0:00:34.680 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.720 --> 0:00:37.720 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.200 --> 0:00:40.440 Join me now as I take you into this world. 0:00:45.920 --> 0:00:48.360 Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired 0:00:48.400 --> 0:00:52.120 Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young, who I personally think was 0:00:52.159 --> 0:00:54.440 one of the toughest cops in New South Wales. And 0:00:54.480 --> 0:00:56.880 just by way of background, if you didn't hear part one, 0:00:57.080 --> 0:00:59.760 we work together for a very long time in homicide. 0:01:00.000 --> 0:01:02.200 We also lived together for a very long time, so 0:01:02.680 --> 0:01:04.640 there's a lot of history between the two of us. 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.959 So if things are said here I'll deny it if 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:10.880 it's embarrassing to me, but I trust you, Pam, to 0:01:10.920 --> 0:01:11.560 be kind to me. 0:01:13.000 --> 0:01:13.720 I will try. 0:01:13.959 --> 0:01:18.400 Okay, we're going to talk about a particularly gruesome investigation 0:01:18.520 --> 0:01:22.039 that you were involved with Russell Oxford at the time, 0:01:22.080 --> 0:01:26.680 who's one of our favorites on Eye Catch Killers. It 0:01:26.720 --> 0:01:29.800 was the murder of David o'hearne and Frank r Kell, 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:32.720 and I want to talk about that because you worked 0:01:32.760 --> 0:01:35.800 with Russell on that investigation and still to this day 0:01:35.880 --> 0:01:37.959 is one of the most sort of gruesome crime scenes 0:01:38.040 --> 0:01:41.640 I've seen and it was just a fascinating case. But 0:01:41.880 --> 0:01:44.479 before we do, and paying homage to the fact that 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:47.160 on Eye Catch Killers, I've never had someone honor as 0:01:47.200 --> 0:01:49.520 a guest that I lived with, and people probably want 0:01:49.560 --> 0:01:52.120 to find out what it's like living in the house. 0:01:52.120 --> 0:01:55.360 We've two highly strung out homicide detectives at the same time. 0:01:56.200 --> 0:02:00.840 I'm just going to talk about one particular event that 0:02:00.920 --> 0:02:05.120 happened in now not works time, relationship time. We're at 0:02:05.120 --> 0:02:08.840 your place, at your unit, and I think we had 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:13.480 an argument. You were clearly wrong and for whatever you said, 0:02:14.080 --> 0:02:16.520 and I, as I tend to do, like to make 0:02:16.560 --> 0:02:19.959 the big statement about how aggrieved. I am and decide, fine, 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:22.160 I'm going to pack up and leave. The problem was, 0:02:22.160 --> 0:02:25.480 it was about twelve o'clock at night. Grabbed all my gear, 0:02:25.520 --> 0:02:27.919 all my worldly possessions, and carried them and walked to 0:02:27.960 --> 0:02:30.400 the railway station. Then at about one o'clock I'm sitting 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.600 at the railway station. I was living on the Central 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:34.840 Coast at the time I got on the train. 0:02:34.639 --> 0:02:36.600 And we were nowhere near a railway station. 0:02:37.120 --> 0:02:41.919 Yes, and I was carrying all my worldly possessions and 0:02:41.960 --> 0:02:44.160 I get on the train and some drop kick said, mate, 0:02:44.200 --> 0:02:47.280 you must have done something wrong. I've been kicked out. 0:02:47.440 --> 0:02:49.480 I tried to point out, as a matter of principle 0:02:49.480 --> 0:02:51.320 that I thought I was right in the argument. Therefore, 0:02:51.320 --> 0:02:53.840 I was going to leave regardless of what time. I 0:02:53.880 --> 0:02:56.600 got home to the Central Coast at probably about three o'clock, 0:02:56.639 --> 0:02:58.520 had an hour asleep, and then had to turn around 0:02:58.560 --> 0:03:01.240 and come back to Sydney. What made the day even 0:03:01.280 --> 0:03:05.200 more memorable, we were lecturing on the detective's training course. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:07.919 We're delivering eight hour lectures to I think about two 0:03:08.040 --> 0:03:13.120 hundred detectives on the one of those days on homicide investigation. 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:15.320 To say the fact that it was a bit tense 0:03:15.400 --> 0:03:18.000 on stage is an understatement, and I think some of 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:21.480 the some of the reviews we got on that particular 0:03:21.560 --> 0:03:24.600 day was that the lecture was very informative, but you 0:03:24.639 --> 0:03:28.560 could feel the sexual tension. Why did we put ourselves 0:03:28.600 --> 0:03:31.680 through that? Like who has an argument storms out then 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:34.640 has to I literally said hello to you when we 0:03:34.680 --> 0:03:38.360 walked on stage, Hi, and do a lecture for eight hours. 0:03:38.560 --> 0:03:43.680 Yeah. Look, we were trying to encourage and raise perceptive detectives, 0:03:43.720 --> 0:03:46.440 weren't they And it showed that they we have succeeded. 0:03:46.600 --> 0:03:49.880 So yeah, we did have to hold it together a 0:03:49.960 --> 0:03:52.520 few times. Apart from anything, we're just more often than 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:57.880 not so tired from a relentless song call. Well, and 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:00.800 then with two of us at the same time, you 0:04:00.840 --> 0:04:03.680 lived your own call, I meaning I got to serve 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:05.200 for your on call and you get to serve for 0:04:05.280 --> 0:04:08.240 my uncle, so effectively doing two separate lots of on call. 0:04:09.240 --> 0:04:12.559 And that's that's where it added. Because we're doing individually. 0:04:12.600 --> 0:04:15.160 You do on call once every six weeks. So, and 0:04:15.440 --> 0:04:17.880 I've explained this on the podcast. You get called if 0:04:17.880 --> 0:04:19.280 there's a murder in the state. 0:04:19.440 --> 0:04:22.360 More often than that. If you didn't have children, Yes, 0:04:22.520 --> 0:04:25.479 it's always you know, other people couldn't and you were 0:04:25.480 --> 0:04:29.200 asked to volunteer and people who didn't have children, Yes, 0:04:29.400 --> 0:04:30.080 and you can. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:34.760 So I'd get through an on call period and just 0:04:34.920 --> 0:04:38.200 crawl across the finishing line, and then you would would 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:39.800 have a week's break, and then you ended up on 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:41.799 the phone call and we go through the whole thing again. 0:04:42.560 --> 0:04:45.720 But anyway, that's where just reflecting, I'm sure you were. 0:04:45.800 --> 0:04:47.040 Did you ever make it home again? 0:04:47.200 --> 0:04:50.080 I'm sure you were wrong in that argument. I forget 0:04:50.120 --> 0:04:52.479 what it was about, but clearly it was an important issue. 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.160 But you want to lessen and this is this is important. 0:04:55.440 --> 0:04:58.200 There's a few more storming out stories go. We'll talk 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.760 about them them later one particular time when you're on 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:05.640 call over Christmas, but we'll save that to another another time. Okay, 0:05:05.839 --> 0:05:09.880 the murder or the murders to murders, David Ahearn and 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:12.080 Frank R. Kel, do you want to just talk with 0:05:12.160 --> 0:05:15.839 us about And people are interested in how you become 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:18.800 involved in these investigations and then what happened in the investigations, 0:05:18.839 --> 0:05:20.160 So do you want to just talk us through that? 0:05:21.320 --> 0:05:26.359 Well, the famous and good Russell Oxford is the reason 0:05:26.400 --> 0:05:29.720 I was in homicide at all. He mentored me in 0:05:30.560 --> 0:05:35.520 to homicide at Northwest Crime Squad. He taught me so 0:05:36.120 --> 0:05:39.680 much and he seemed to like working with me. So 0:05:39.839 --> 0:05:44.560 with on call. He was my sergeant and he called 0:05:44.600 --> 0:05:47.880 me when that job came in. That was the second 0:05:48.680 --> 0:05:53.320 murder in what we would learn was serial murders. So 0:05:54.440 --> 0:05:56.640 Russell and I were called to the Frank r Kell murder. 0:05:56.680 --> 0:06:01.440 In particular, the lovely David O'Hearn had been murdered about 0:06:01.520 --> 0:06:04.200 just two weeks prior to that. And this is down 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:13.520 in Wollongong Albion Park area. Yes, so fascinating crimes. So 0:06:13.920 --> 0:06:19.040 and this is in June of ninety eight, the first 0:06:19.120 --> 0:06:25.720 crime of David Lovely, a quiet living game man shop owner. 0:06:26.600 --> 0:06:31.800 He was found dead, very dead, in his lounge room. 0:06:32.360 --> 0:06:39.120 He'd been mutilated post mortem, so after dying extensively, he'd 0:06:39.160 --> 0:06:42.880 had his head removed and put in the sink, the 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.640 kitchen sink, his own kitchen sink. He'd had his hand 0:06:46.680 --> 0:06:49.279 cut off and the hand, the bloody end of the 0:06:49.360 --> 0:06:56.560 hand used to write what was suggestive of Satanic references 0:06:56.600 --> 0:07:01.559 and symbols on his walls of his own home. He'd 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:09.120 been his intestine had been removed and put symbolically on 0:07:09.160 --> 0:07:13.720 a silver tray. Other things too had happened to different 0:07:13.760 --> 0:07:21.200 parts of his body, so clearly someone very dangerous was operating. 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:23.960 So just two weeks later, this is when Russell and 0:07:24.000 --> 0:07:28.480 I become involved. Frank Carcel, who had been the mayor 0:07:28.480 --> 0:07:32.080 of Wollongong I think for well over fifteen years or 0:07:32.680 --> 0:07:38.160 upward to twenty and certainly always a Wollongong man. He 0:07:38.400 --> 0:07:43.680 was found dead at his home in a similar area, 0:07:44.760 --> 0:07:51.240 bashed severely to the head multiple times, and also some 0:07:51.280 --> 0:07:57.200 post mortem mutilation a less degree than what I've described 0:07:57.240 --> 0:08:04.520 with Port David, but there were lapel pins type pins 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.720 put into his eyeballs, for instance, and a few different things. 0:08:10.040 --> 0:08:13.640 So yeah, so can I just stop you there with 0:08:13.720 --> 0:08:16.280 that type of crime scene? What's the thing that's going 0:08:16.320 --> 0:08:19.200 through your mind? So you've got that crime scene, and 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:23.320 then two weeks earlier there was another particularly gruesome crime scene. 0:08:24.200 --> 0:08:27.360 What's the detectives thinking at what's gone on there? 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.160 On approaching it physically, I mean or just potentially. 0:08:31.800 --> 0:08:34.360 Just looking at Okay, who could have committed this? What 0:08:34.400 --> 0:08:37.120 do we yes with here? Was going through your mind 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:38.440 and the mind of the strike force. 0:08:38.559 --> 0:08:42.480 So we did we tended to move towards it they 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:46.800 were linked. We even had a third murder earlier that 0:08:46.920 --> 0:08:51.880 year in Sydney of a man called Trevor Parkin. He 0:08:52.200 --> 0:08:55.000 hadn't been long out of jail and he was found 0:08:55.040 --> 0:09:03.680 in again appallingly mutilated condition. So potentially we had definitely 0:09:03.720 --> 0:09:07.920 a serial killer and of the most brutal type. But 0:09:08.440 --> 0:09:12.600 personally you can't dwell on that. That's too big a concept. 0:09:12.600 --> 0:09:15.280 We've got to deal on the minutia, the tiny things. 0:09:15.440 --> 0:09:18.480 Where's the evidence, what's the evidence we're going to find here? 0:09:19.640 --> 0:09:23.400 What is important for each crime scene to be treated 0:09:23.640 --> 0:09:28.840 uniquely and the evidence individually pursued and then of course 0:09:29.000 --> 0:09:33.360 always be communicating at about links. So it did end 0:09:33.440 --> 0:09:37.040 up our hypothesis that they were linked. Certainly it was 0:09:37.080 --> 0:09:41.839 true for David o'hearne and Frank Arkel. Trevor Parkin was 0:09:41.880 --> 0:09:47.200 a separate crime and offender was charged separately for his murder. 0:09:47.480 --> 0:09:49.880 Yep. And what were the what were the links that 0:09:50.000 --> 0:09:52.880 you confidently felt that they were linked. You're taking their 0:09:52.880 --> 0:09:55.040 account the brutality of the crimeone. 0:09:54.679 --> 0:10:00.000 Yes, the physical the proximity really the two weeks apart, 0:10:00.040 --> 0:10:09.200 but they so David was a gay man. Frank though 0:10:10.360 --> 0:10:18.439 was had been charged with child child offenses. So whilst 0:10:18.480 --> 0:10:23.359 we know that gay people aren't pedophiles, it's a completely 0:10:23.360 --> 0:10:28.960 different concept and lifestyle, a lot of offenders can think 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:33.840 that they are the same. So potentially we had an 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:39.920 offender who thought he'd attacked two pedophiles and as it 0:10:40.000 --> 0:10:43.240 turned out, that's the case with. 0:10:43.960 --> 0:10:47.680 The pressure that's on there, and yeah, I understand it, 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.640 but explain to people the pressure when you're investigating crimes 0:10:50.640 --> 0:10:54.000 like that two weeks apart, you think they're linked, when's 0:10:53.760 --> 0:10:55.880 it going to be the next person murdered that. 0:10:56.000 --> 0:11:04.360 Yes, it's exactly exactly even it's it's pressure from above 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.200 about those things. It's it's they can't have deployed a 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.839 team and a good team, and then while the good 0:11:09.920 --> 0:11:13.400 teams out there, then another similar crime occurred. So there's 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:17.079 all this, uh all pressure along that line as well, 0:11:17.120 --> 0:11:19.559 and of course we don't want to do occur either. 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.640 But you have to concentrate your areas in what you have, 0:11:24.120 --> 0:11:29.400 and we had two scenes and we yes, so we 0:11:30.640 --> 0:11:35.160 very much went over the history of all Longong has 0:11:35.200 --> 0:11:40.079 some quite hideous history of quite hideous crimes. They were 0:11:40.120 --> 0:11:43.240 also coming under notice as far as the Catholic church 0:11:43.600 --> 0:11:51.960 and counselors and politicians from that area for child abuse matters, 0:11:52.040 --> 0:11:54.120 it was all in that in that era. So that 0:11:54.280 --> 0:11:56.120 was a took a huge book of our time. 0:11:56.440 --> 0:11:58.720 That's telling me you've got a lot of potential persons 0:11:58.720 --> 0:11:59.960 of interesting Yes, it did. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.559 Was very wide. It also had a lot of gay 0:12:04.600 --> 0:12:09.079 beat areas, so of course we were canvassing and inquiring 0:12:09.080 --> 0:12:14.000 of anyone there if they had any one in mind 0:12:14.120 --> 0:12:16.880 or yes, or any new people in the area, or 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:20.000 any strange behavior or conduct and things. So it was 0:12:20.440 --> 0:12:27.160 very broad and investigation under pressure because of the nature 0:12:27.200 --> 0:12:28.200 of the crimes. 0:12:28.480 --> 0:12:32.280 Yeah, what when did you think you got the breakthrough? 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.200 Was there? Was there one particular breakthrough. 0:12:35.840 --> 0:12:43.040 There was, So under Russell's guidance, we had sensibly not 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.679 released to the public because we know how important it 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:51.400 is to hold back material that only the killer knows about, 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:55.240 and it's a way that you avoid false confession. So 0:12:56.280 --> 0:13:00.080 Russell had made a good decision to not release the 0:13:00.120 --> 0:13:06.559 fact that clothing, so tracksuit pants and boots not belonging 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:11.680 to Frank kel To were found at the scene with Frank. 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:18.640 So the assumption is they belonged to the killer. So 0:13:19.080 --> 0:13:22.400 we held on to that information because we wanted to 0:13:22.480 --> 0:13:26.160 catch the killer with the other piece of the tracksuit 0:13:26.800 --> 0:13:31.800 and potentially replaced brand new desert boots. But it got 0:13:31.800 --> 0:13:34.480 to a point of that that holding off didn't work, 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:37.880 so we did release. We got the mannequins, as you 0:13:37.920 --> 0:13:43.240 do on extensive media coverage with exactly the same but 0:13:43.400 --> 0:13:46.920 new clothing. We got a lot of information. 0:13:46.760 --> 0:13:49.319 And the appeal does anyone recognize. 0:13:49.760 --> 0:13:52.920 Yes, exactly, okay, So we did get a lot of 0:13:53.000 --> 0:13:58.960 responsible One in particular was a young woman who said, oh, 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:03.120 my boyfriend, he loves his desert boots and I can't 0:14:03.120 --> 0:14:06.160 remember seeing him wear them for a few weeks now. 0:14:07.200 --> 0:14:11.760 So just simple things you can that can be overlooked 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:13.840 in the sea of other people who say, oh, you 0:14:13.880 --> 0:14:16.760 know the neighbor you have desert boots too, I haven't 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:23.920 seen them, and the little things details, it is those details. 0:14:24.000 --> 0:14:29.680 So we were honing in then on her boyfriend, who 0:14:29.760 --> 0:14:35.560 was a nineteen year old called Mark van Krevel. At 0:14:35.600 --> 0:14:39.960 the same time with the other strike force, the one 0:14:40.000 --> 0:14:44.960 looking at the murder of David o'hearne, they noted that 0:14:45.840 --> 0:14:51.359 Mark van Krevell was an alibi to one of their suspects. 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:53.880 Of they had many suspects, but he was an alibi 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:58.720 to one of their suspects, so we had another possible link, tenuous, 0:14:59.160 --> 0:15:04.400 tenuous link. And then we looked at the various crime 0:15:04.440 --> 0:15:06.440 scene logs that we kept at our scene over a 0:15:06.520 --> 0:15:09.200 number of days and there was an entry there for 0:15:09.240 --> 0:15:12.840 an inquiry by Mark van Krevel. So he had been 0:15:12.880 --> 0:15:18.760 to the scene of Frank's home in the days when 0:15:18.800 --> 0:15:22.600 the police were controlling the scene. So that then led 0:15:22.640 --> 0:15:27.600 to us desperately wanting his fingerprints. He was a clean skin, 0:15:27.720 --> 0:15:33.760 so no history. We did have Prince at David O'Hearn's home, 0:15:35.120 --> 0:15:38.120 so it was one of the first ops that went around. 0:15:38.160 --> 0:15:43.720 We got our surveillance teams to follow him around whilst 0:15:43.720 --> 0:15:48.680 he went about his street walks, knowing nothing about him, 0:15:48.720 --> 0:15:52.560 hoping he might drink something glass or eat something from 0:15:52.560 --> 0:15:56.480 a nice shiny, clean surface and discard it. And it 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:59.800 was many days went into that, but we did get 0:16:00.080 --> 0:16:03.440 his fingerprints on a coke bottle that he discarded into 0:16:03.920 --> 0:16:07.200 a public bin. The fun jobs we police get to 0:16:07.240 --> 0:16:10.960 do because it was clearly and you couldn't get you 0:16:10.960 --> 0:16:12.800 couldn't wait to have it, you know, down the bottom 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.520 of other people's discarded Russia rubbish. So we had to 0:16:16.160 --> 0:16:17.800 he had to be seen putting it in because it 0:16:17.840 --> 0:16:19.400 was going to be evidence. He had to be seen 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:23.840 putting it in photographic scene, visually scene. He had to 0:16:23.840 --> 0:16:27.160 be far enough away for them for the surveillance the 0:16:27.200 --> 0:16:30.480 dogs dive in and grab it before the people in 0:16:30.520 --> 0:16:33.320 the busy woong streets filled it up with other things, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:37.440 because then you can't distinguish his from theirs. They did 0:16:37.480 --> 0:16:41.680 really well, and we ended up with his print matching 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:48.360 to the Ohn scene. Plus then you know it's nothing 0:16:48.440 --> 0:16:51.440 or everything. At the same time, he in the alibi 0:16:51.520 --> 0:16:55.479 statement that he'd given for the Dava Aherne matter, alibying 0:16:55.520 --> 0:17:01.880 one of their suspects. We got his statement out, original statement, 0:17:02.000 --> 0:17:05.760 not the one now, on a electronic, yes, electronic one, 0:17:06.280 --> 0:17:10.080 and fingerprinted it. So it was his statement with his 0:17:10.240 --> 0:17:12.720 name on it, with his prints on it that matched 0:17:12.720 --> 0:17:16.439 the coke bottle, the statement page, and the wall. So 0:17:16.480 --> 0:17:21.520 we had him for O'Hern's and we were ready to really. 0:17:21.280 --> 0:17:24.280 There's there's pressure on there because you're at the stage 0:17:24.280 --> 0:17:28.280 where you make a pressure. Ideally you wouldn't have to, 0:17:28.400 --> 0:17:31.320 but you can't. You can't let him run and let someone. 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:33.399 Can't get him run, and at the same time he 0:17:33.440 --> 0:17:38.560 could be innocent. So yeah, pressure was run and we 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:41.159 were ready to know. We knew. We were at a 0:17:41.160 --> 0:17:43.520 stage after I can't remember how long that job went. 0:17:43.640 --> 0:17:45.800 Might have been a year, I can't remember, but it 0:17:45.840 --> 0:17:50.199 wasn't a short job. Short term job and building up 0:17:50.200 --> 0:17:53.119 to it. And then I'm staying down there and I 0:17:53.200 --> 0:17:59.720 get the call from Wollongong to say, oh a taekwond 0:18:00.119 --> 0:18:05.120 instructor has brought in his student students' names, Mark van Krevell. 0:18:05.600 --> 0:18:11.439 He wants to confess to the murders and it was 0:18:11.560 --> 0:18:17.080 a gift, so so we yes, so it's just all 0:18:17.080 --> 0:18:20.760 hands on deck. That night he made a full confession 0:18:21.640 --> 0:18:26.800 and then Russell and Joe Cassa did an excellent walkthrough 0:18:27.000 --> 0:18:32.040 interview with him. Some people have criticized that interview for 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.680 saying that, you know, Russell's too prescriptive, but I keep 0:18:35.760 --> 0:18:38.120 I see even now, I want to say that's because 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:42.119 Russell well knew because he'd done the earlier interview, that 0:18:42.600 --> 0:18:46.720 the confession that Van Crreeville had given was full and 0:18:46.880 --> 0:18:50.919 Frank and Russell was just making sure that no detail 0:18:51.040 --> 0:18:53.000 was missed at the scene. It was just a cover 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.639 cover off. So the apart from the hideous crimes and 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:03.040 the fact he went out with Paul David o'han, he 0:19:03.119 --> 0:19:05.720 just went out wanting to know what it felt like 0:19:05.760 --> 0:19:09.680 to kill somebody. That's more or less a quote with 0:19:10.119 --> 0:19:14.200 Frank r Kel. He suggested he was a bad man, 0:19:14.800 --> 0:19:18.119 but that was really played more once he was in 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:21.719 defense mode and was learning about charges and things, so 0:19:21.760 --> 0:19:25.840 he tried that. So the striking thing this is this 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:29.760 endless curiosity that the job allows us to learn these things. 0:19:29.920 --> 0:19:35.479 He had no hesitation, not even a change of a 0:19:35.600 --> 0:19:38.400 voice or a look on his face when he's describing 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:43.320 in detail what he did to those men and their bodies. 0:19:43.800 --> 0:19:47.440 Not hesitation. This is an nineteen year old. But if 0:19:47.560 --> 0:19:51.400 in the interview, if he swore he went into profuse 0:19:52.080 --> 0:19:57.040 apologies because he knew that was rude. That wasn't the 0:19:57.119 --> 0:20:04.560 type of manners he was brought up to. His expression fascinating, fascinating, 0:20:05.160 --> 0:20:10.080 So it was okay to murder, mutilate, and describe, but 0:20:10.160 --> 0:20:14.520 not to use a swear word. It just it is fascinating. Yeah, 0:20:14.600 --> 0:20:19.480 So he's he got He was the youngest person to 0:20:19.560 --> 0:20:24.600 get to two life sentences, but under the which was 0:20:24.640 --> 0:20:27.399 brand new at the time and never to be released scheme. 0:20:28.760 --> 0:20:30.600 So he's he's still in of course. 0:20:30.680 --> 0:20:32.919 I think I bumped into him in prison. 0:20:33.080 --> 0:20:33.760 I was going to say, not. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:36.000 Shop. 0:20:38.440 --> 0:20:40.520 He was a great sweeper. He did great sweeping. 0:20:42.119 --> 0:20:44.160 If it is, I think it was him just put 0:20:44.200 --> 0:20:46.600 on a lot of weight and living there. Yeah. 0:20:46.680 --> 0:20:51.320 Yeah, look, he he had a shocking upbringing, as so 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.040 many sadly do, but nonetheless. 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:59.560 Upbringing. But there's even the further twist to this this story. 0:20:59.600 --> 0:21:01.400 Do you want take us there? Yeah? 0:21:01.640 --> 0:21:06.080 So again I can't remember the timeframe wasn't too long after. 0:21:07.359 --> 0:21:11.199 So Mark van Kreville is in the court system well 0:21:11.240 --> 0:21:16.280 and truly when his sister is picked up for soliciting 0:21:17.160 --> 0:21:24.800 her boyfriend, Shriy Shriver to murder her father, saw also 0:21:24.880 --> 0:21:27.680 Mark van Krevel's father with an axe, and he did 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:33.080 so successfully. So you've got the brother, the sister, and 0:21:33.200 --> 0:21:37.480 their friend up for really shocking offenses. 0:21:37.760 --> 0:21:41.840 Yeah, pretty chilly offenses. Even in all all that we're saying, 0:21:41.840 --> 0:21:47.240 that sort of sticks in your mind. Working on a 0:21:47.320 --> 0:21:51.199 job like that, the pressure, the brutality, the just the 0:21:51.359 --> 0:21:54.920 horribleness of it. Does it change your view on humanity. 0:21:54.960 --> 0:21:57.240 Does it do you look at people a little bit differently? 0:21:57.280 --> 0:21:58.800 Does it effect you at all? 0:22:00.119 --> 0:22:04.400 So the answer is yes. I can only say yes 0:22:04.840 --> 0:22:08.199 so firmly because I've learned that it did affect me, 0:22:08.800 --> 0:22:13.360 and not necessarily that job. There's a category of jobs. 0:22:13.800 --> 0:22:16.840 I believe all jobs affect us. It is unnatural for 0:22:17.040 --> 0:22:20.280 any human to look on the violent death of another 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:25.040 human being. It's unnatural, but someone has to do it. 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.320 It can't be done by anyone else. It has to 0:22:27.359 --> 0:22:32.160 be done by investigators, and then doctors and forensic pathologists, 0:22:32.240 --> 0:22:35.000 and then there's the photos to Everyone needs to look 0:22:35.040 --> 0:22:37.560 at it, so it has to be done. But it 0:22:37.720 --> 0:22:43.240 is unnatural and it must affect everyone, and does affect everyone. 0:22:43.280 --> 0:22:45.919 It's whether you acknowledge it and to what extent. So 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:50.040 my answer is yes, it affected me, but not in 0:22:50.080 --> 0:22:54.720 relation to what I think about humanity. I think the 0:22:54.920 --> 0:22:59.480 thing that has allowed me to cope is that being 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:03.480 so close to death, seeing how death is brought about violently, 0:23:04.520 --> 0:23:12.159 Seeing whilst it's a devastating impact, but it's limited in 0:23:12.200 --> 0:23:17.840 the population. And if it wasn't for media and other 0:23:17.960 --> 0:23:23.720 interested groups wanting using fear as a means to get ratings. 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:26.840 I think the community as a whole would feel more 0:23:26.880 --> 0:23:30.320 relaxed about the community because I have been up close 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.800 in the face, standing in the middle of the very 0:23:33.840 --> 0:23:37.479 worst of humanity, and I still believe in it. I 0:23:37.520 --> 0:23:41.280 still know the vast majority of people are good people, 0:23:43.400 --> 0:23:48.359 But I do I have come away with triggers that 0:23:48.880 --> 0:23:59.840 spontaneous reactions are to various visual signs and colors, such 0:24:00.160 --> 0:24:05.959 is the color of blood, for instance, trigger triggers around 0:24:06.040 --> 0:24:12.760 violence towards women. I do think, uh that I'm particularly 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:16.800 still and I think I always will be triggered by 0:24:17.080 --> 0:24:20.160 violence towards women. Can I get do we have time? 0:24:20.200 --> 0:24:23.400 I tell you the most bizarre, I mean, I still 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:24.080 think it's bizarre. 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:25.800 Run this podcast. 0:24:26.960 --> 0:24:31.480 The most and part of it, like you know, it 0:24:31.600 --> 0:24:35.360 upsets me. But I think it's such a clear it's 0:24:35.440 --> 0:24:39.879 such a clear demonstration to me that what what emergency 0:24:39.920 --> 0:24:43.560 services face. It's not me. I'm not weaker or stronger 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.720 than anybody else, but it played out this way. It 0:24:46.960 --> 0:24:52.800 was so I went to I went to Spain. I 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:56.320 was in Barcelona and walking down that is it the Rombulus, 0:24:56.320 --> 0:25:00.040 that it's the riverbank area that they've converted into a 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:06.159 a center pedestrian wide pedestrian mall effectively leading from the 0:25:06.760 --> 0:25:10.399 city park down to the water. Beautiful, beautiful, yes. And 0:25:10.520 --> 0:25:17.160 on either side there's two lane roads, busy roads, and shops. 0:25:17.240 --> 0:25:21.760 It densely packed shops on either side across the road. 0:25:21.960 --> 0:25:24.320 So I'm walking in the middle on a holiday and 0:25:24.359 --> 0:25:27.480 I'm hearing I hear yelling, and I look to my 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:30.879 right and I see there's a woman, a black woman, 0:25:31.160 --> 0:25:35.480 being held her. She's got her arms held back, held 0:25:35.680 --> 0:25:38.639 at her back by two or three men, and there 0:25:38.680 --> 0:25:41.679 are other men yelling at her in the face, and 0:25:41.720 --> 0:25:46.040 she's yelling back. She's giving as good as she's getting verbally, 0:25:46.119 --> 0:25:50.760 though she's being restrained. I just summed it up. I thought, 0:25:50.920 --> 0:25:56.680 possibly she's a shoplifter and she's been yelled at by 0:25:56.760 --> 0:26:00.359 the person who owns the shop. She was the woman 0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:04.760 in that area. Everyone else was men, and I just thought, 0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:07.600 I just took it in. I clocked it our tom 0:26:08.560 --> 0:26:12.359 So then I just looked again and I saw a 0:26:12.400 --> 0:26:15.920 man come from behind the two interested groups come from behind, 0:26:17.080 --> 0:26:21.600 walk in front to her and punched her with all 0:26:21.720 --> 0:26:26.600 his might, straight in her face. I saw that. Now. 0:26:28.359 --> 0:26:31.719 The next thing I know, the very next thing I 0:26:31.760 --> 0:26:35.800 know is I come to over on the footpath. So 0:26:35.840 --> 0:26:40.119 I've left this wide mal area, got across two lanes 0:26:40.119 --> 0:26:44.239 of traffic. I'm standing on the footpath with her at 0:26:44.280 --> 0:26:49.320