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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat. We've retired

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Speaker 1: Detective Chief Inspector Pamely Young, who I personally think was

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Speaker 1: one of the toughest cops in New South Wales. And

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Speaker 1: just by way of background, if you didn't hear part one,

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Speaker 1: we work together for a very long time in homicide.

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Speaker 1: We also lived together for a very long time, so

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of history between the two of us.

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Speaker 1: So if things are said here I'll deny it if

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Speaker 1: it's embarrassing to me, but I trust you, Pam, to

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Speaker 1: be kind to me.

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Speaker 2: I will try.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we're going to talk about a particularly gruesome investigation

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Speaker 1: that you were involved with Russell Oxford at the time,

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Speaker 1: who's one of our favorites on Eye Catch Killers. It

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Speaker 1: was the murder of David o'hearne and Frank r Kell,

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Speaker 1: and I want to talk about that because you worked

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Speaker 1: with Russell on that investigation and still to this day

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Speaker 1: is one of the most sort of gruesome crime scenes

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Speaker 1: I've seen and it was just a fascinating case. But

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Speaker 1: before we do, and paying homage to the fact that

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Speaker 1: on Eye Catch Killers, I've never had someone honor as

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Speaker 1: a guest that I lived with, and people probably want

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Speaker 1: to find out what it's like living in the house.

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Speaker 1: We've two highly strung out homicide detectives at the same time.

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Speaker 1: I'm just going to talk about one particular event that

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Speaker 1: happened in now not works time, relationship time. We're at

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Speaker 1: your place, at your unit, and I think we had

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Speaker 1: an argument. You were clearly wrong and for whatever you said,

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Speaker 1: and I, as I tend to do, like to make

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Speaker 1: the big statement about how aggrieved. I am and decide, fine,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to pack up and leave. The problem was,

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Speaker 1: it was about twelve o'clock at night. Grabbed all my gear,

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Speaker 1: all my worldly possessions, and carried them and walked to

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Speaker 1: the railway station. Then at about one o'clock I'm sitting

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Speaker 1: at the railway station. I was living on the Central

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Speaker 1: Coast at the time I got on the train.

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Speaker 2: And we were nowhere near a railway station.

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Speaker 1: Yes, and I was carrying all my worldly possessions and

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Speaker 1: I get on the train and some drop kick said, mate,

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Speaker 1: you must have done something wrong. I've been kicked out.

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Speaker 1: I tried to point out, as a matter of principle

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Speaker 1: that I thought I was right in the argument. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: I was going to leave regardless of what time. I

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Speaker 1: got home to the Central Coast at probably about three o'clock,

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Speaker 1: had an hour asleep, and then had to turn around

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Speaker 1: and come back to Sydney. What made the day even

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Speaker 1: more memorable, we were lecturing on the detective's training course.

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Speaker 1: We're delivering eight hour lectures to I think about two

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Speaker 1: hundred detectives on the one of those days on homicide investigation.

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Speaker 1: To say the fact that it was a bit tense

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Speaker 1: on stage is an understatement, and I think some of

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Speaker 1: the some of the reviews we got on that particular

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Speaker 1: day was that the lecture was very informative, but you

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Speaker 1: could feel the sexual tension. Why did we put ourselves

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Speaker 1: through that? Like who has an argument storms out then

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Speaker 1: has to I literally said hello to you when we

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Speaker 1: walked on stage, Hi, and do a lecture for eight hours.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Look, we were trying to encourage and raise perceptive detectives,

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Speaker 2: weren't they And it showed that they we have succeeded.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, we did have to hold it together a

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Speaker 2: few times. Apart from anything, we're just more often than

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Speaker 2: not so tired from a relentless song call. Well, and

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Speaker 2: then with two of us at the same time, you

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Speaker 2: lived your own call, I meaning I got to serve

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Speaker 2: for your on call and you get to serve for

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Speaker 2: my uncle, so effectively doing two separate lots of on call.

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Speaker 1: And that's that's where it added. Because we're doing individually.

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Speaker 1: You do on call once every six weeks. So, and

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Speaker 1: I've explained this on the podcast. You get called if

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Speaker 1: there's a murder in the state.

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Speaker 2: More often than that. If you didn't have children, Yes,

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Speaker 2: it's always you know, other people couldn't and you were

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Speaker 2: asked to volunteer and people who didn't have children, Yes,

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Speaker 2: and you can.

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Speaker 1: So I'd get through an on call period and just

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Speaker 1: crawl across the finishing line, and then you would would

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Speaker 1: have a week's break, and then you ended up on

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Speaker 1: the phone call and we go through the whole thing again.

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Speaker 1: But anyway, that's where just reflecting, I'm sure you were.

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Speaker 2: Did you ever make it home again?

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Speaker 1: I'm sure you were wrong in that argument. I forget

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Speaker 1: what it was about, but clearly it was an important issue.

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Speaker 2: But you want to lessen and this is this is important.

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Speaker 1: There's a few more storming out stories go. We'll talk

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Speaker 1: about them them later one particular time when you're on

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Speaker 1: call over Christmas, but we'll save that to another another time. Okay,

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Speaker 1: the murder or the murders to murders, David Ahearn and

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Speaker 1: Frank R. Kel, do you want to just talk with

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Speaker 1: us about And people are interested in how you become

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Speaker 1: involved in these investigations and then what happened in the investigations,

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Speaker 1: So do you want to just talk us through that?

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Speaker 2: Well, the famous and good Russell Oxford is the reason

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Speaker 2: I was in homicide at all. He mentored me in

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Speaker 2: to homicide at Northwest Crime Squad. He taught me so

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Speaker 2: much and he seemed to like working with me. So

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Speaker 2: with on call. He was my sergeant and he called

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Speaker 2: me when that job came in. That was the second

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Speaker 2: murder in what we would learn was serial murders. So

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Speaker 2: Russell and I were called to the Frank r Kell murder.

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Speaker 2: In particular, the lovely David O'Hearn had been murdered about

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Speaker 2: just two weeks prior to that. And this is down

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Speaker 2: in Wollongong Albion Park area. Yes, so fascinating crimes. So

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Speaker 2: and this is in June of ninety eight, the first

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Speaker 2: crime of David Lovely, a quiet living game man shop owner.

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Speaker 2: He was found dead, very dead, in his lounge room.

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Speaker 2: He'd been mutilated post mortem, so after dying extensively, he'd

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Speaker 2: had his head removed and put in the sink, the

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Speaker 2: kitchen sink, his own kitchen sink. He'd had his hand

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Speaker 2: cut off and the hand, the bloody end of the

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Speaker 2: hand used to write what was suggestive of Satanic references

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Speaker 2: and symbols on his walls of his own home. He'd

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Speaker 2: been his intestine had been removed and put symbolically on

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Speaker 2: a silver tray. Other things too had happened to different

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Speaker 2: parts of his body, so clearly someone very dangerous was operating.

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Speaker 2: So just two weeks later, this is when Russell and

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Speaker 2: I become involved. Frank Carcel, who had been the mayor

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Speaker 2: of Wollongong I think for well over fifteen years or

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Speaker 2: upward to twenty and certainly always a Wollongong man. He

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Speaker 2: was found dead at his home in a similar area,

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Speaker 2: bashed severely to the head multiple times, and also some

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Speaker 2: post mortem mutilation a less degree than what I've described

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Speaker 2: with Port David, but there were lapel pins type pins

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Speaker 2: put into his eyeballs, for instance, and a few different things.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, so can I just stop you there with

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Speaker 1: that type of crime scene? What's the thing that's going

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Speaker 1: through your mind? So you've got that crime scene, and

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Speaker 1: then two weeks earlier there was another particularly gruesome crime scene.

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Speaker 1: What's the detectives thinking at what's gone on there?

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Speaker 2: On approaching it physically, I mean or just potentially.

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Speaker 1: Just looking at Okay, who could have committed this? What

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Speaker 1: do we yes with here? Was going through your mind

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Speaker 1: and the mind of the strike force.

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Speaker 2: So we did we tended to move towards it they

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Speaker 2: were linked. We even had a third murder earlier that

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Speaker 2: year in Sydney of a man called Trevor Parkin. He

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Speaker 2: hadn't been long out of jail and he was found

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Speaker 2: in again appallingly mutilated condition. So potentially we had definitely

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Speaker 2: a serial killer and of the most brutal type. But

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Speaker 2: personally you can't dwell on that. That's too big a concept.

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Speaker 2: We've got to deal on the minutia, the tiny things.

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Speaker 2: Where's the evidence, what's the evidence we're going to find here?

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Speaker 2: What is important for each crime scene to be treated

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Speaker 2: uniquely and the evidence individually pursued and then of course

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Speaker 2: always be communicating at about links. So it did end

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Speaker 2: up our hypothesis that they were linked. Certainly it was

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Speaker 2: true for David o'hearne and Frank Arkel. Trevor Parkin was

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Speaker 2: a separate crime and offender was charged separately for his murder.

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Speaker 1: Yep. And what were the what were the links that

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Speaker 1: you confidently felt that they were linked. You're taking their

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Speaker 1: account the brutality of the crimeone.

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Speaker 2: Yes, the physical the proximity really the two weeks apart,

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Speaker 2: but they so David was a gay man. Frank though

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Speaker 2: was had been charged with child child offenses. So whilst

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Speaker 2: we know that gay people aren't pedophiles, it's a completely

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Speaker 2: different concept and lifestyle, a lot of offenders can think

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Speaker 2: that they are the same. So potentially we had an

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Speaker 2: offender who thought he'd attacked two pedophiles and as it

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Speaker 2: turned out, that's the case with.

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Speaker 1: The pressure that's on there, and yeah, I understand it,

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Speaker 1: but explain to people the pressure when you're investigating crimes

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Speaker 1: like that two weeks apart, you think they're linked, when's

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Speaker 1: it going to be the next person murdered that.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's exactly exactly even it's it's pressure from above

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Speaker 2: about those things. It's it's they can't have deployed a

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Speaker 2: team and a good team, and then while the good

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Speaker 2: teams out there, then another similar crime occurred. So there's

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Speaker 2: all this, uh all pressure along that line as well,

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Speaker 2: and of course we don't want to do occur either.

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Speaker 2: But you have to concentrate your areas in what you have,

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Speaker 2: and we had two scenes and we yes, so we

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Speaker 2: very much went over the history of all Longong has

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Speaker 2: some quite hideous history of quite hideous crimes. They were

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Speaker 2: also coming under notice as far as the Catholic church

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Speaker 2: and counselors and politicians from that area for child abuse matters,

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Speaker 2: it was all in that in that era. So that

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Speaker 2: was a took a huge book of our time.

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Speaker 1: That's telling me you've got a lot of potential persons

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Speaker 1: of interesting Yes, it did.

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Speaker 2: Was very wide. It also had a lot of gay

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Speaker 2: beat areas, so of course we were canvassing and inquiring

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Speaker 2: of anyone there if they had any one in mind

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Speaker 2: or yes, or any new people in the area, or

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Speaker 2: any strange behavior or conduct and things. So it was

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Speaker 2: very broad and investigation under pressure because of the nature

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Speaker 2: of the crimes.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, what when did you think you got the breakthrough?

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Speaker 1: Was there? Was there one particular breakthrough.

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Speaker 2: There was, So under Russell's guidance, we had sensibly not

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Speaker 2: released to the public because we know how important it

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Speaker 2: is to hold back material that only the killer knows about,

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Speaker 2: and it's a way that you avoid false confession. So

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Speaker 2: Russell had made a good decision to not release the

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Speaker 2: fact that clothing, so tracksuit pants and boots not belonging

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Speaker 2: to Frank kel To were found at the scene with Frank.

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Speaker 2: So the assumption is they belonged to the killer. So

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Speaker 2: we held on to that information because we wanted to

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Speaker 2: catch the killer with the other piece of the tracksuit

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Speaker 2: and potentially replaced brand new desert boots. But it got

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Speaker 2: to a point of that that holding off didn't work,

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Speaker 2: so we did release. We got the mannequins, as you

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Speaker 2: do on extensive media coverage with exactly the same but

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Speaker 2: new clothing. We got a lot of information.

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Speaker 1: And the appeal does anyone recognize.

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Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, okay, So we did get a lot of

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Speaker 2: responsible One in particular was a young woman who said, oh,

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Speaker 2: my boyfriend, he loves his desert boots and I can't

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Speaker 2: remember seeing him wear them for a few weeks now.

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Speaker 2: So just simple things you can that can be overlooked

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Speaker 2: in the sea of other people who say, oh, you

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Speaker 2: know the neighbor you have desert boots too, I haven't

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Speaker 2: seen them, and the little things details, it is those details.

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Speaker 2: So we were honing in then on her boyfriend, who

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Speaker 2: was a nineteen year old called Mark van Krevel. At

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Speaker 2: the same time with the other strike force, the one

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Speaker 2: looking at the murder of David o'hearne, they noted that

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Speaker 2: Mark van Krevell was an alibi to one of their suspects.

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Speaker 2: Of they had many suspects, but he was an alibi

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Speaker 2: to one of their suspects, so we had another possible link, tenuous,

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Speaker 2: tenuous link. And then we looked at the various crime

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Speaker 2: scene logs that we kept at our scene over a

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Speaker 2: number of days and there was an entry there for

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Speaker 2: an inquiry by Mark van Krevel. So he had been

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Speaker 2: to the scene of Frank's home in the days when

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Speaker 2: the police were controlling the scene. So that then led

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Speaker 2: to us desperately wanting his fingerprints. He was a clean skin,

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Speaker 2: so no history. We did have Prince at David O'Hearn's home,

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Speaker 2: so it was one of the first ops that went around.

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Speaker 2: We got our surveillance teams to follow him around whilst

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Speaker 2: he went about his street walks, knowing nothing about him,

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Speaker 2: hoping he might drink something glass or eat something from

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Speaker 2: a nice shiny, clean surface and discard it. And it

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Speaker 2: was many days went into that, but we did get

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Speaker 2: his fingerprints on a coke bottle that he discarded into

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Speaker 2: a public bin. The fun jobs we police get to

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Speaker 2: do because it was clearly and you couldn't get you

249
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Speaker 2: couldn't wait to have it, you know, down the bottom

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Speaker 2: of other people's discarded Russia rubbish. So we had to

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Speaker 2: he had to be seen putting it in because it

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Speaker 2: was going to be evidence. He had to be seen

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Speaker 2: putting it in photographic scene, visually scene. He had to

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Speaker 2: be far enough away for them for the surveillance the

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Speaker 2: dogs dive in and grab it before the people in

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Speaker 2: the busy woong streets filled it up with other things,

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Speaker 2: because then you can't distinguish his from theirs. They did

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Speaker 2: really well, and we ended up with his print matching

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Speaker 2: to the Ohn scene. Plus then you know it's nothing

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Speaker 2: or everything. At the same time, he in the alibi

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Speaker 2: statement that he'd given for the Dava Aherne matter, alibying

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Speaker 2: one of their suspects. We got his statement out, original statement,

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Speaker 2: not the one now, on a electronic, yes, electronic one,

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Speaker 2: and fingerprinted it. So it was his statement with his

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Speaker 2: name on it, with his prints on it that matched

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Speaker 2: the coke bottle, the statement page, and the wall. So

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Speaker 2: we had him for O'Hern's and we were ready to really.

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Speaker 1: There's there's pressure on there because you're at the stage

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Speaker 1: where you make a pressure. Ideally you wouldn't have to,

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Speaker 1: but you can't. You can't let him run and let someone.

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Speaker 2: Can't get him run, and at the same time he

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Speaker 2: could be innocent. So yeah, pressure was run and we

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Speaker 2: were ready to know. We knew. We were at a

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Speaker 2: stage after I can't remember how long that job went.

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Speaker 2: Might have been a year, I can't remember, but it

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Speaker 2: wasn't a short job. Short term job and building up

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Speaker 2: to it. And then I'm staying down there and I

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Speaker 2: get the call from Wollongong to say, oh a taekwond

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Speaker 2: instructor has brought in his student students' names, Mark van Krevell.

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Speaker 2: He wants to confess to the murders and it was

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Speaker 2: a gift, so so we yes, so it's just all

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Speaker 2: hands on deck. That night he made a full confession

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Speaker 2: and then Russell and Joe Cassa did an excellent walkthrough

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Speaker 2: interview with him. Some people have criticized that interview for

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Speaker 2: saying that, you know, Russell's too prescriptive, but I keep

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Speaker 2: I see even now, I want to say that's because

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Speaker 2: Russell well knew because he'd done the earlier interview, that

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Speaker 2: the confession that Van Crreeville had given was full and

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Speaker 2: Frank and Russell was just making sure that no detail

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Speaker 2: was missed at the scene. It was just a cover

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Speaker 2: cover off. So the apart from the hideous crimes and

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Speaker 2: the fact he went out with Paul David o'han, he

293
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Speaker 2: just went out wanting to know what it felt like

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Speaker 2: to kill somebody. That's more or less a quote with

295
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Speaker 2: Frank r Kel. He suggested he was a bad man,

296
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Speaker 2: but that was really played more once he was in

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Speaker 2: defense mode and was learning about charges and things, so

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Speaker 2: he tried that. So the striking thing this is this

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Speaker 2: endless curiosity that the job allows us to learn these things.

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Speaker 2: He had no hesitation, not even a change of a

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Speaker 2: voice or a look on his face when he's describing

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Speaker 2: in detail what he did to those men and their bodies.

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Speaker 2: Not hesitation. This is an nineteen year old. But if

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Speaker 2: in the interview, if he swore he went into profuse

305
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Speaker 2: apologies because he knew that was rude. That wasn't the

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00:19:57,119 --> 00:20:04,560
Speaker 2: type of manners he was brought up to. His expression fascinating, fascinating,

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Speaker 2: So it was okay to murder, mutilate, and describe, but

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Speaker 2: not to use a swear word. It just it is fascinating. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: So he's he got He was the youngest person to

310
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Speaker 2: get to two life sentences, but under the which was

311
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Speaker 2: brand new at the time and never to be released scheme.

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Speaker 2: So he's he's still in of course.

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Speaker 1: I think I bumped into him in prison.

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Speaker 2: I was going to say, not.

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Speaker 1: Shop.

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Speaker 2: He was a great sweeper. He did great sweeping.

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Speaker 1: If it is, I think it was him just put

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Speaker 1: on a lot of weight and living there. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, look, he he had a shocking upbringing, as so

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Speaker 2: many sadly do, but nonetheless.

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Speaker 1: Upbringing. But there's even the further twist to this this story.

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Speaker 1: Do you want take us there? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: So again I can't remember the timeframe wasn't too long after.

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Speaker 2: So Mark van Kreville is in the court system well

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Speaker 2: and truly when his sister is picked up for soliciting

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Speaker 2: her boyfriend, Shriy Shriver to murder her father, saw also

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Speaker 2: Mark van Krevel's father with an axe, and he did

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Speaker 2: so successfully. So you've got the brother, the sister, and

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Speaker 2: their friend up for really shocking offenses.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, pretty chilly offenses. Even in all all that we're saying,

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Speaker 1: that sort of sticks in your mind. Working on a

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Speaker 1: job like that, the pressure, the brutality, the just the

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Speaker 1: horribleness of it. Does it change your view on humanity.

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Speaker 1: Does it do you look at people a little bit differently?

335
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Speaker 1: Does it effect you at all?

336
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Speaker 2: So the answer is yes. I can only say yes

337
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Speaker 2: so firmly because I've learned that it did affect me,

338
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Speaker 2: and not necessarily that job. There's a category of jobs.

339
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Speaker 2: I believe all jobs affect us. It is unnatural for

340
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Speaker 2: any human to look on the violent death of another

341
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Speaker 2: human being. It's unnatural, but someone has to do it.

342
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Speaker 2: It can't be done by anyone else. It has to

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Speaker 2: be done by investigators, and then doctors and forensic pathologists,

344
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Speaker 2: and then there's the photos to Everyone needs to look

345
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Speaker 2: at it, so it has to be done. But it

346
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Speaker 2: is unnatural and it must affect everyone, and does affect everyone.

347
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Speaker 2: It's whether you acknowledge it and to what extent. So

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Speaker 2: my answer is yes, it affected me, but not in

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Speaker 2: relation to what I think about humanity. I think the

350
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Speaker 2: thing that has allowed me to cope is that being

351
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Speaker 2: so close to death, seeing how death is brought about violently,

352
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Speaker 2: Seeing whilst it's a devastating impact, but it's limited in

353
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Speaker 2: the population. And if it wasn't for media and other

354
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 2: interested groups wanting using fear as a means to get ratings.

355
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Speaker 2: I think the community as a whole would feel more

356
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Speaker 2: relaxed about the community because I have been up close

357
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Speaker 2: in the face, standing in the middle of the very

358
00:23:33,840 --> 00:23:37,479
Speaker 2: worst of humanity, and I still believe in it. I

359
00:23:37,520 --> 00:23:41,280
Speaker 2: still know the vast majority of people are good people,

360
00:23:43,400 --> 00:23:48,359
Speaker 2: But I do I have come away with triggers that

361
00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:59,840
Speaker 2: spontaneous reactions are to various visual signs and colors, such

362
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:05,959
Speaker 2: is the color of blood, for instance, trigger triggers around

363
00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 2: violence towards women. I do think, uh that I'm particularly

364
00:24:13,680 --> 00:24:16,800
Speaker 2: still and I think I always will be triggered by

365
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Speaker 2: violence towards women. Can I get do we have time?

366
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Speaker 2: I tell you the most bizarre, I mean, I still

367
00:24:23,400 --> 00:24:24,080
Speaker 2: think it's bizarre.

368
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Speaker 1: Run this podcast.

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Speaker 2: The most and part of it, like you know, it

370
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,360
Speaker 2: upsets me. But I think it's such a clear it's

371
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Speaker 2: such a clear demonstration to me that what what emergency

372
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Speaker 2: services face. It's not me. I'm not weaker or stronger

373
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Speaker 2: than anybody else, but it played out this way. It

374
00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:52,800
Speaker 2: was so I went to I went to Spain. I

375
00:24:52,840 --> 00:24:56,320
Speaker 2: was in Barcelona and walking down that is it the Rombulus,

376
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Speaker 2: that it's the riverbank area that they've converted into a

377
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:06,159
Speaker 2: a center pedestrian wide pedestrian mall effectively leading from the

378
00:25:06,760 --> 00:25:10,399
Speaker 2: city park down to the water. Beautiful, beautiful, yes. And

379
00:25:10,520 --> 00:25:17,160
Speaker 2: on either side there's two lane roads, busy roads, and shops.

380
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:21,760
Speaker 2: It densely packed shops on either side across the road.

381
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Speaker 2: So I'm walking in the middle on a holiday and

382
00:25:24,359 --> 00:25:27,480
Speaker 2: I'm hearing I hear yelling, and I look to my

383
00:25:27,600 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 2: right and I see there's a woman, a black woman,

384
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:35,480
Speaker 2: being held her. She's got her arms held back, held

385
00:25:35,680 --> 00:25:38,639
Speaker 2: at her back by two or three men, and there

386
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: are other men yelling at her in the face, and

387
00:25:41,720 --> 00:25:46,040
Speaker 2: she's yelling back. She's giving as good as she's getting verbally,

388
00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:50,760
Speaker 2: though she's being restrained. I just summed it up. I thought,

389
00:25:50,920 --> 00:25:56,680
Speaker 2: possibly she's a shoplifter and she's been yelled at by

390
00:25:56,760 --> 00:26:00,359
Speaker 2: the person who owns the shop. She was the woman

391
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: in that area. Everyone else was men, and I just thought,

392
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 2: I just took it in. I clocked it our tom

393
00:26:08,560 --> 00:26:12,359
Speaker 2: So then I just looked again and I saw a

394
00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,920
Speaker 2: man come from behind the two interested groups come from behind,

395
00:26:17,080 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: walk in front to her and punched her with all

396
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:26,600
Speaker 2: his might, straight in her face. I saw that. Now.

397
00:26:28,359 --> 00:26:31,719
Speaker 2: The next thing I know, the very next thing I

398
00:26:31,760 --> 00:26:35,800
Speaker 2: know is I come to over on the footpath. So

399
00:26:35,840 --> 00:26:40,119
Speaker 2: I've left this wide mal area, got across two lanes

400
00:26:40,119 --> 00:26:44,239
Speaker 2: of traffic. I'm standing on the footpath with her at

401
00:26:44,280 --> 00:26:49,320
Speaker 2: my back, staring at the man who's punched her to stop,

402
00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:51,879
Speaker 2: to stop. What is I don't know what he's going

403
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:53,520
Speaker 2: to stop if he was going to hit her again,

404
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:57,439
Speaker 2: I was. I have no idea how I got from

405
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:01,200
Speaker 2: in the middle of the mall to in the middle

406
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:04,880
Speaker 2: of them. So I come to and then logic comes

407
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,640
Speaker 2: in and think, well, they're all speaking Spanish. I don't

408
00:27:07,640 --> 00:27:11,080
Speaker 2: speak Spanish. I'm not in the police force over here.

409
00:27:11,119 --> 00:27:13,840
Speaker 2: I'm in the new Southwest place. What am I doing here?

410
00:27:14,119 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: What can I do? So I'm just going like this

411
00:27:17,400 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: and making sweet smiling faces, and the men that weren't him,

412
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:26,400
Speaker 2: they settle it. They see themselves.

413
00:27:26,520 --> 00:27:27,400
Speaker 1: That's gone.

414
00:27:27,680 --> 00:27:31,320
Speaker 2: That's gone too far. And I was with some friends

415
00:27:31,520 --> 00:27:34,080
Speaker 2: and I thought, my goodness, I'm going to have to

416
00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 2: explain what just happened. So I'm walking back fully, conscious,

417
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:41,359
Speaker 2: crossing the road carefully. It was very busy road. Getting

418
00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 2: in the middle again. I'm ready to I'm thinking, excuse, excuse,

419
00:27:45,240 --> 00:27:47,960
Speaker 2: what can I excuse me for? Explaining that bizarre, bizarre

420
00:27:48,119 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 2: behavior and came back in. The first thing they say is, oh,

421
00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:56,119
Speaker 2: you're so brave you went to help that woman. And

422
00:27:56,200 --> 00:27:58,160
Speaker 2: I left it that I wasn't going to say. Look,

423
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:02,560
Speaker 2: it was something. It was literally it was a trigger,

424
00:28:02,720 --> 00:28:07,960
Speaker 2: a PTSD related trigger around the safety of women, a woman,

425
00:28:08,359 --> 00:28:11,080
Speaker 2: a stranger woman, a stranger woman in a foreign country,

426
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: a stranger woman in a foreign country who's committed a crime.

427
00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:18,159
Speaker 2: So it doesn't matter, it's that trigger. I think what

428
00:28:18,320 --> 00:28:22,600
Speaker 2: gets inside that you cannot intellectualize a way.

429
00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: Thanks for sharing it, because I have spoken to other

430
00:28:26,640 --> 00:28:29,600
Speaker 1: police officers that if they talk about how it's affected them,

431
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 1: and there's strange situations like that where they just they're

432
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,720
Speaker 1: standing in the middle of the road, don't know what

433
00:28:33,800 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 1: they're doing, just different things like that. Yeah, that's part

434
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,360
Speaker 1: of the policing. But it's in your instinct too. I

435
00:28:41,400 --> 00:28:43,600
Speaker 1: know you well enough to know you can't stand by

436
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,840
Speaker 1: whether it was a perceived injustice, but probably a bit

437
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: stupid in that environment you could have you didn't know

438
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: what you're walking.

439
00:28:50,560 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: Into, Yes, but the thing so you say stupid and

440
00:28:53,400 --> 00:28:56,880
Speaker 2: I know jubil and you don't think PTSD really exists.

441
00:28:56,920 --> 00:29:00,400
Speaker 2: I know that about you because I just know because

442
00:29:00,480 --> 00:29:03,480
Speaker 2: we've talked about it. So even for you to say,

443
00:29:03,760 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: even you keep believing that, so you even in that

444
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 2: sentence you said, probably a bit silly, of course you

445
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: couldn't really help that woman. You've missed the whole The

446
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,920
Speaker 2: whole thing is is I was not conscious of what

447
00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,720
Speaker 2: I was doing. A trigger. You've you're a gunman, you've

448
00:29:24,720 --> 00:29:29,800
Speaker 2: pulled a few that that trigger in me was I

449
00:29:29,920 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 2: must must protect that woman.

450
00:29:32,440 --> 00:29:34,160
Speaker 1: I must have been born with PTS.

451
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:38,040
Speaker 2: Then, oh, look, that's not beyond the realms. You're still

452
00:29:38,080 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: getting over your dad. Well it is if you think

453
00:29:41,800 --> 00:29:44,400
Speaker 2: trauma is is a normal state because you had it

454
00:29:44,440 --> 00:29:49,040
Speaker 2: since childhood. So police, the addition of police trauma is

455
00:29:49,120 --> 00:29:50,480
Speaker 2: just a normal life.

456
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 1: Anyway. We'll move on from that. So chaos is a

457
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:57,120
Speaker 1: norm anyway. What's the next topic? Does it change view

458
00:29:57,120 --> 00:29:57,800
Speaker 1: on humanity?

459
00:29:58,080 --> 00:29:59,640
Speaker 2: Encyclopedia past.

460
00:30:00,320 --> 00:30:04,400
Speaker 1: Let's go to a happy, happy, happy topic, our role models.

461
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: I hope it steers towards Russell ox With and Paul

462
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:08,880
Speaker 1: Jacob because we had a lot of fun when we're

463
00:30:08,880 --> 00:30:12,440
Speaker 1: senior constables talking about our respective sergeants. Mine was Paul

464
00:30:12,520 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 1: Jacob and yours was Russell Ocks with great detectives, and

465
00:30:16,520 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: that they tore us, tore us so much. But were

466
00:30:18,960 --> 00:30:22,880
Speaker 1: they the softest people in the history of the world. Yeah.

467
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,600
Speaker 2: We used to say to each other like I'd say,

468
00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 2: you know, my sergeant's nicer than yours, and you said, no,

469
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:35,480
Speaker 2: my sergeant's nicer than yours, and this little affectionate bantering.

470
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:38,800
Speaker 1: What I like about both them that I think they

471
00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:43,040
Speaker 1: were rock solid, strong human beings, but they kept a

472
00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 1: humanity to them the whole true and taught them well,

473
00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 1: taught me, probably taught you a lot too, because I

474
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,480
Speaker 1: was somewhat angry as you might, and intense, and the

475
00:30:53,520 --> 00:30:56,920
Speaker 1: same become as a surprise.

476
00:30:56,600 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 2: I reflect, you see if I can to remember.

477
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 1: But they the things I learned off Jacob, how he

478
00:31:02,120 --> 00:31:05,240
Speaker 1: is so inclusive in running a strike because everyone was involved,

479
00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:07,719
Speaker 1: from the most junior person as a senior person. Everyone

480
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:11,600
Speaker 1: felt like they were contributing tension, the detail. I couldn't

481
00:31:11,640 --> 00:31:14,840
Speaker 1: understand why we're sitting there eleven o'clock at nine. I

482
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:16,880
Speaker 1: wanted to go home. I'm tired and all that. But

483
00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:20,840
Speaker 1: just attention the details, thoroughness. Yes, and we were fortunate

484
00:31:20,920 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 1: to have two role models like that. Because I know

485
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: you you think highly.

486
00:31:24,320 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: Of very sustaining, sustaining with your Jacob, your Jacob by Jacob.

487
00:31:30,920 --> 00:31:34,840
Speaker 2: That he would expressly use the word love when he

488
00:31:35,280 --> 00:31:38,880
Speaker 2: spoke to people, when he was appreciating their efforts and

489
00:31:38,880 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: their good work, and he would say, and I love

490
00:31:41,200 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: you two cops of all genders, so repeatedly it was

491
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:51,440
Speaker 2: and it was natural. It wasn't genuine, it was genuine,

492
00:31:51,640 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: you know that easily accepted philosophy. Now, there's so many

493
00:31:55,160 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: types of love with Russell, just a little demo it

494
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: comes to mind, for instance, how nice he was, because

495
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,239
Speaker 2: he was so always so good with keeping standards and

496
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 2: explaining the need for preservation and why things were done

497
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:15,880
Speaker 2: in a certain way. But if he found an officer

498
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 2: at a crime scene with their boot ever so slightly

499
00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:25,600
Speaker 2: over the top of any sort of blood trace, he's

500
00:32:26,160 --> 00:32:28,680
Speaker 2: here was the type of nice person. He'd go up

501
00:32:28,680 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 2: and say, look it's Bill, isn't it Bill? See how

502
00:32:31,880 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 2: your foot is there on the blood. I think you

503
00:32:35,200 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 2: should take your boot off, and you're going to be

504
00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:39,640
Speaker 2: now and we're going to carry you out so that

505
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 2: there's no other disermancy. Would you mind and just just

506
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: take a couple of minutes to get where everything. Will

507
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,000
Speaker 2: do that, That's what Roussill would do, Whereas I would

508
00:32:47,000 --> 00:32:50,040
Speaker 2: have spotted him at the door, Bill and I said,

509
00:32:51,320 --> 00:32:54,480
Speaker 2: I have said, fucking Bill, take your built off and

510
00:32:54,520 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: you're going to walk home back to the station in

511
00:32:56,480 --> 00:33:00,680
Speaker 2: your socks. Look at what you've done a different So same,

512
00:33:02,360 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 2: that's and they showed it. They showed how you could

513
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:11,920
Speaker 2: be professional and respected and be kind and be good.

514
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:16,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, and I know because we've spoken about it so often.

515
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,000
Speaker 1: I just feel lucky that we got to work under

516
00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:22,080
Speaker 1: people like that that could mentor us carry those.

517
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:27,680
Speaker 2: I want to mention two other role models, Kim mackay

518
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: she and Maria Russia. They made it to superintendent long

519
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 2: before my sights set on those positions, and they both

520
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: headed up the arduous, tough child protection units at separate times.

521
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,680
Speaker 2: And Kim she was the commander for those shocking strike

522
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 2: for Sedah, a multiple serial Lebanese Australian related sexual assaults

523
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:59,800
Speaker 2: across Sydney of women and girls. Blao scaf is still

524
00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: serving time in jail. He was a pack leader. She

525
00:34:04,960 --> 00:34:09,200
Speaker 2: did a great job holding the office together and assisted

526
00:34:09,480 --> 00:34:13,760
Speaker 2: those resolving those shocking crimes. Plus yeah, so her strength

527
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 2: was about how to look after stuff, not so I

528
00:34:16,800 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: got from Russell about how to look after crime scenes

529
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:24,719
Speaker 2: and from came about staff. With Maria. She fought tooth

530
00:34:24,760 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 2: and nail to have child protection matters acknowledged properly. Their

531
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 2: volume crime they.

532
00:34:32,000 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: Were when Maria was running that, it was just a

533
00:34:34,960 --> 00:34:37,120
Speaker 1: horrible time for him because I was overworked.

534
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:40,080
Speaker 2: No one gave him the respect, no one gave and

535
00:34:40,120 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 2: we're tooking in people inside like their bosses, including just

536
00:34:46,080 --> 00:34:49,000
Speaker 2: with the volume crime. Remember any any crime had to

537
00:34:49,040 --> 00:34:53,040
Speaker 2: be reported on a sit reper situation report. Maria was

538
00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:56,759
Speaker 2: faced with the situation where with chart abuse, there were

539
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:01,240
Speaker 2: so many sit reps. They were following policy and submitting

540
00:35:01,239 --> 00:35:08,759
Speaker 2: them to the our directors executive and Maria's boss effectively tot,

541
00:35:08,920 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 2: don't send them through anymore. There's too many for us

542
00:35:11,520 --> 00:35:15,200
Speaker 2: to read. It's not oh there's so many, we will

543
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,120
Speaker 2: get you more staff, or we will let's see if

544
00:35:18,120 --> 00:35:20,759
Speaker 2: we can help. It was don't send them. So it

545
00:35:20,840 --> 00:35:25,240
Speaker 2: was less acknowledged, less acknowledged, yeah, because they weren't reading

546
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: what was happening. So it was a very disturbing time,

547
00:35:28,239 --> 00:35:33,120
Speaker 2: and Maria was successfully fought against that. So I still

548
00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 2: say street cops and child protection workers have the toughest gigs.

549
00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:40,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, and the two that you mentioned, and I worked

550
00:35:40,120 --> 00:35:42,960
Speaker 1: with Kim. I wasn't in homicide. She was in homicide,

551
00:35:43,000 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 1: and I remember she came out to one of the

552
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,440
Speaker 1: first homicides I worked on. Very impressed by her, and

553
00:35:48,640 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 1: the team were working and Maria. I tried. I think

554
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:54,759
Speaker 1: I tried to get it might have been through you

555
00:35:54,800 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 1: tried to get Maria on the podcast years ago. But yeah, both,

556
00:35:58,840 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: I'm glad you've given them a share out because again,

557
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,640
Speaker 1: they got through as females in a tough, tough male environment.

558
00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:11,279
Speaker 2: Kim was the first boss to extend emotional support to me,

559
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:15,319
Speaker 2: first and only boss, and that's when I'm a very

560
00:36:15,360 --> 00:36:17,239
Speaker 2: senior sergeant by then. And she was.

561
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: With sex crime.

562
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:25,520
Speaker 2: Yes, she offered a sabbatical. She saw it was never

563
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 2: I've had some very good bosses, but not once offered

564
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,920
Speaker 2: emotional support. Yeah, so there you go.

565
00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,600
Speaker 1: Oh well, no, they deserve a mention. All right. I

566
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:39,839
Speaker 1: wanted to talk about and we don't have to talk

567
00:36:39,880 --> 00:36:42,800
Speaker 1: about it long, but I think it's worth talking about

568
00:36:42,840 --> 00:36:45,759
Speaker 1: it that we're both in major crime. When the Royal

569
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:49,280
Speaker 1: Commission came for and yeah, I was in North region,

570
00:36:49,320 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 1: you're in Northwest. Both regions were hit pretty pretty hard

571
00:36:52,120 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: with the Royal Commission. I often get asked about about

572
00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,319
Speaker 1: those times, and you know, you can't shy away from it.

573
00:36:58,320 --> 00:37:00,120
Speaker 1: There was corruption in the in the police, and that

574
00:37:00,200 --> 00:37:04,239
Speaker 1: was in the work environments that we worked. I'm talking

575
00:37:04,239 --> 00:37:07,759
Speaker 1: about the after effects of it that I really felt

576
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:11,320
Speaker 1: that as detectives, I felt shame for what had been exposed.

577
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: And I choose my words here carefully because there's some

578
00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,799
Speaker 1: people that needed to be Yeah, they were bad and

579
00:37:17,840 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: they were using the job to do whatever they were doing.

580
00:37:21,000 --> 00:37:24,560
Speaker 1: It certainly wasn't police were But I say this was

581
00:37:24,600 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 1: some weak people that were caught up in it because

582
00:37:26,560 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: they didn't know how to say that. You and I

583
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:30,719
Speaker 1: navigated our way through that, but we could stand up

584
00:37:30,719 --> 00:37:33,000
Speaker 1: for ourselves. I saw some people get caught up because

585
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: just the influence of the group and they were caught up.

586
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:38,799
Speaker 1: What's your take on those times?

587
00:37:39,200 --> 00:37:48,719
Speaker 2: Well, I would start with saying the command can you

588
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 2: know had so many more people who were not corrupt

589
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:59,120
Speaker 2: than the smaller number that was so speaking of Chriss

590
00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:03,439
Speaker 2: God Northwest, if I just remember correctly, we had about

591
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:06,440
Speaker 2: one hundred, let's say one hundred and twenty with child protection,

592
00:38:07,080 --> 00:38:11,240
Speaker 2: of which three, five, seven, let's even double at fifteen,

593
00:38:11,360 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 2: let's say in the drug squad in particular, and I

594
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:18,799
Speaker 2: think only in the drug squad, and I think the

595
00:38:18,880 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 2: number is closed to five. By the way, were targeted

596
00:38:23,480 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 2: rightly and were caught out rightly. So even then, in

597
00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:32,760
Speaker 2: the dark days before the Royal Commission, we really were good.

598
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:33,520
Speaker 1: We were good.

599
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 2: If anything, I've seen more negligence or laziness. Corruption to

600
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:47,080
Speaker 2: me is a smaller concern. Whenever it is, it's bad

601
00:38:47,120 --> 00:38:49,560
Speaker 2: and it needs to be rooted up. But my goodness,

602
00:38:49,880 --> 00:38:57,919
Speaker 2: it's more. There are more crimes left unsolved or were convictions.

603
00:38:58,000 --> 00:39:01,200
Speaker 2: Even good briefs is evidence that at the end of

604
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:07,000
Speaker 2: the day, I don't hold through negligence and laziness disorganization.

605
00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: At last, young, I've found someone that I've been trying

606
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:14,120
Speaker 1: to articulate that very thing. Yeah, I was in major

607
00:39:14,160 --> 00:39:17,120
Speaker 1: crime when the Royal Commission came through and they identified corruption.

608
00:39:17,800 --> 00:39:20,040
Speaker 1: Do I think that corruption was worse than some of

609
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,800
Speaker 1: the stuff I see now by not properly resourcing or

610
00:39:22,840 --> 00:39:27,880
Speaker 1: properly investigating things, No, I don't. I Yeah, that was bad,

611
00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:30,200
Speaker 1: but it's just as bad to not properly resource an

612
00:39:30,239 --> 00:39:33,040
Speaker 1: investigation or lie to the public, or even worse, lie

613
00:39:33,120 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: to victims about what's been done on an investigation. We

614
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,520
Speaker 1: jake and we're not into bashing bashing the police. We

615
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,800
Speaker 1: both love the police. So I'm choosing my words here carefully,

616
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:45,880
Speaker 1: but telling people there's a strike force running on this

617
00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:49,719
Speaker 1: when the strike force was basically one person and little

618
00:39:49,760 --> 00:39:52,640
Speaker 1: things like that. So I do understand what you're saying.

619
00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 2: Yes, but sometimes that's the fact, and that's only possible

620
00:39:56,080 --> 00:39:59,319
Speaker 2: because of the disparity between the number of let's say

621
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 2: cold case it's just to grab a sample area cold

622
00:40:02,960 --> 00:40:08,399
Speaker 2: case alongside, and the number of stuff. So it's not, oh,

623
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:10,600
Speaker 2: there are other stuff that could be used, but we're

624
00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: only going to give it one stuff. It's just no,

625
00:40:13,280 --> 00:40:17,960
Speaker 2: there's no movement, there's no fat, there's no reserve bench.

626
00:40:18,680 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 2: So the it's a huge question what is the proper

627
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:33,880
Speaker 2: resourcing as in staff positions two properly work through crimes,

628
00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:35,280
Speaker 2: all crimes and crimes.

629
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:38,120
Speaker 1: And we've both been in management, so we understand that

630
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:40,399
Speaker 1: the resources are limited and they've got to be put

631
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,600
Speaker 1: where that they can be best utilized. But yeah, I

632
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: do see. You know, it's all right saying that was

633
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:49,880
Speaker 1: a corrupt days we've cleared up the corruption. But don't

634
00:40:50,239 --> 00:40:52,880
Speaker 1: think just because it's all polished up and looking shiny

635
00:40:52,960 --> 00:40:55,720
Speaker 1: and the media are reporting all nice things about the police.

636
00:40:55,719 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: Everything has been done properly.

637
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,840
Speaker 2: Now, I do think that that's twenty five, wasn't it,

638
00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:03,279
Speaker 2: that wood Rold commission, So that that was on the

639
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:07,360
Speaker 2: back of that heroine trade worldwide, that that addiction with.

640
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:10,759
Speaker 2: You know, no one sees anything like that now, No

641
00:41:10,800 --> 00:41:15,000
Speaker 2: one sees the damage to individuals and the community through.

642
00:41:15,520 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 2: We saw it and we attempted to lock up a

643
00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:23,040
Speaker 2: few people with it, but that then seeped into for instance,

644
00:41:23,440 --> 00:41:24,319
Speaker 2: drug squads.

645
00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:30,359
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's also a reflection on society too. It

646
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 1: wasn't just a police so there's people outside of the police,

647
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:35,040
Speaker 1: where it be politicians or others called up in the whole.

648
00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:39,799
Speaker 2: Yes, and greedy people we know well at Northwest who

649
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:49,759
Speaker 2: were charged or certainly named and really greedy, small minded, unethical, lazy,

650
00:41:50,120 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 2: lacking self esteem. I thought they were tough guys, thought exactly,

651
00:41:56,120 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 2: you know that that's the type.

652
00:41:58,200 --> 00:42:01,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, I know. But anyway, the point I want to

653
00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,839
Speaker 1: make with that whole Royal Commission. I felt aggrieved as

654
00:42:03,920 --> 00:42:07,560
Speaker 1: detectives because our reputation was just sullied within our own organization,

655
00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,840
Speaker 1: within the public. Yes, and people like yourself myself have

656
00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,759
Speaker 1: been through it. We had the fight to get that

657
00:42:13,880 --> 00:42:14,719
Speaker 1: reputation back.

658
00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yes, and the thing and it comes in

659
00:42:17,760 --> 00:42:19,759
Speaker 2: with a few other things that played. But that was

660
00:42:19,800 --> 00:42:23,200
Speaker 2: the first example to me, demonstration to me of how

661
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 2: the police force as a whole, but meaning really the

662
00:42:26,600 --> 00:42:31,240
Speaker 2: individuals in it are offered up as sacrifices to social

663
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:37,960
Speaker 2: ills or political aims. The cops and we've seen time

664
00:42:38,000 --> 00:42:42,360
Speaker 2: and time again and very recently seen as the whipping post,

665
00:42:42,440 --> 00:42:51,000
Speaker 2: the whipping boy of lack of proper policy or budget. Yeah,

666
00:42:51,080 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 2: so that was the first example to me of media

667
00:42:56,719 --> 00:43:01,600
Speaker 2: and politicians and interest groups being allowed to go for

668
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:05,080
Speaker 2: the I call us the low hanging fruit, the cops.

669
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 2: And it's convenient for others above us, who really could

670
00:43:12,360 --> 00:43:15,800
Speaker 2: control and assist and support more, because it's a lovely

671
00:43:15,880 --> 00:43:20,680
Speaker 2: distraction to their neglect or lack of budget or something,

672
00:43:21,000 --> 00:43:25,239
Speaker 2: or lack of properly resourcing the police force. So yeah,

673
00:43:25,360 --> 00:43:28,799
Speaker 2: so I'd like the public to be a little bit

674
00:43:28,840 --> 00:43:30,480
Speaker 2: more aware of that.

675
00:43:31,040 --> 00:43:36,080
Speaker 1: Okay, that brings us to a nice segue because I

676
00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:38,680
Speaker 1: was going to I wanted to. At the start of

677
00:43:39,120 --> 00:43:41,839
Speaker 1: this episode, I talked about toughest cop in New South

678
00:43:41,840 --> 00:43:43,799
Speaker 1: Wales because people all asking me who's the toughest cop

679
00:43:43,840 --> 00:43:45,480
Speaker 1: in New South Wales and they think I'll be saying

680
00:43:45,920 --> 00:43:49,600
Speaker 1: someone and go paym young. All right, where's that come from?

681
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,800
Speaker 1: You have a you don't shy away from what needs

682
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:56,640
Speaker 1: to be said. I've collected a couple of examples here

683
00:43:56,680 --> 00:43:58,400
Speaker 1: and I just I'll talk you through it and you

684
00:43:58,400 --> 00:44:03,040
Speaker 1: can explain your position, Okay. So Pam was an association rep,

685
00:44:03,080 --> 00:44:07,120
Speaker 1: the New South Wales Police Association. The rep the association

686
00:44:07,280 --> 00:44:10,759
Speaker 1: reps go on what they call the annual Conference and

687
00:44:10,800 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 1: it's usually at this some swish, beautiful five star resort

688
00:44:16,280 --> 00:44:19,359
Speaker 1: for three or four days of just paling around and

689
00:44:19,400 --> 00:44:22,080
Speaker 1: discussing the important stuff, looking after the people they're here

690
00:44:22,080 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: to support. Pam goes to this and I think it

691
00:44:25,480 --> 00:44:28,600
Speaker 1: was on the central coast. Was it that the Crown

692
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,319
Speaker 1: not the Crown All.

693
00:44:30,239 --> 00:44:33,200
Speaker 2: Those five star hotels are inside. It's hard to take.

694
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,400
Speaker 1: These are our association reps and there looking after looking

695
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:40,760
Speaker 1: after the working men. And so they have the meeting

696
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,520
Speaker 1: women and women. Of course, yeah, correct me, they have

697
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: the has anyone got any motions to put forward? And

698
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:49,720
Speaker 1: I think Pam put a hand up and said, yes,

699
00:44:50,480 --> 00:44:53,400
Speaker 1: do we really have to waste our members' money staying

700
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,919
Speaker 1: in these luxury resorts? Couldn't we have this conference at

701
00:44:56,960 --> 00:44:59,360
Speaker 1: police headquarters? Why are we wasting their money?

702
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:00,480
Speaker 2: No?

703
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:06,360
Speaker 1: One second draw and there was just silence. Yes, I

704
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:08,400
Speaker 1: think you were right in what you said, but it

705
00:45:08,440 --> 00:45:09,440
Speaker 1: doesn't make you popular.

706
00:45:10,280 --> 00:45:15,440
Speaker 2: No all successful, No popularity, no success. Oh and I

707
00:45:15,560 --> 00:45:17,759
Speaker 2: just do plug for the association though they do some

708
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 2: excellent work supporting members, including myself as things went.

709
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,640
Speaker 1: Right, So now you've sold out, now you want them

710
00:45:26,680 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: back in the luxury resorts. But I thought that was

711
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: a reasonable point, at least at warrants for discussion. The

712
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 1: fact that no one second your motion was a bit sad. Anyway,

713
00:45:38,680 --> 00:45:43,120
Speaker 1: another great Pam Young moment. It was in the homicide

714
00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: office New South Wales Police had become bankrupt apparently, or

715
00:45:47,000 --> 00:45:50,279
Speaker 1: so we were told. So we had the works work

716
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,120
Speaker 1: on murder investigations, but they couldn't pay us over time.

717
00:45:53,200 --> 00:45:56,160
Speaker 1: We couldn't travel. I was doing an investigation around the

718
00:45:56,160 --> 00:45:59,560
Speaker 1: state that I couldn't travel. It was just it was ridiculous.

719
00:45:59,640 --> 00:46:00,439
Speaker 1: It got they were.

720
00:46:00,360 --> 00:46:04,680
Speaker 2: Going to remove the water. We weren't allowed to have.

721
00:46:04,600 --> 00:46:08,360
Speaker 1: The water just we had run out of money apparently,

722
00:46:08,760 --> 00:46:11,960
Speaker 1: And so there was a lot of agitating, especially from

723
00:46:12,040 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: us at homicide because it was really impacting on important investigations,

724
00:46:16,080 --> 00:46:18,920
Speaker 1: and we got the police minister there and I forget

725
00:46:18,920 --> 00:46:21,560
Speaker 1: who it was at the time, but it was a

726
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: fairly intense meeting, like a lot of people in homicide

727
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: not backwards and coming forward and say what needs to

728
00:46:27,480 --> 00:46:29,600
Speaker 1: be said. But there was one comment that stood out

729
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 1: from everyone else when Pam speaking to the minister saying, well,

730
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,839
Speaker 1: perhaps here at homicide we should just strive for mediocrity.

731
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:40,480
Speaker 1: Is that what you want us to do? Strive for mediocrity?

732
00:46:41,360 --> 00:46:46,279
Speaker 2: I think he agreed that we did get some money.

733
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 2: We did, I miss god, he didn't. He didn't agree

734
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:53,120
Speaker 2: we should strive for mediocrity. And yes he did deliver.

735
00:46:53,920 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 2: He said he pointed at me and he said you're

736
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,759
Speaker 2: a cynic, which I thought was the opposite of what

737
00:46:59,840 --> 00:47:05,040
Speaker 2: I and then he did. The budget was increased.

738
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:07,840
Speaker 1: Yes, we got it significantly increased, and we're actually allowed

739
00:47:07,840 --> 00:47:10,200
Speaker 1: to go back to work and do some work. So

740
00:47:10,840 --> 00:47:13,279
Speaker 1: just another one, and we're going to talk about this

741
00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,480
Speaker 1: in part three of we're going in the four parts

742
00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:20,440
Speaker 1: to just I'm breaking that to you now now. The

743
00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 1: only other people that have gone into four parts on

744
00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:27,800
Speaker 1: I Catch Killers is Graham Abbot, Henry Oh you followed

745
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:32,759
Speaker 1: notorious company stand over against the Man. He's been a

746
00:47:32,920 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: guest favorite here and also Russell Loxford. So you're in

747
00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: good company in company. Nick Klos only made three episodes.

748
00:47:41,680 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: Don't let him know that.

749
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:45,439
Speaker 1: No, he'll come back and demand another two. That's because

750
00:47:45,480 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: he's so busy. Okay, you were put in a position

751
00:47:48,920 --> 00:47:51,120
Speaker 1: of heading up and you were, in fact the first

752
00:47:51,120 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 1: female to have this position heading up the detective training

753
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,879
Speaker 1: unit and very important role, and we're going to talk

754
00:47:57,920 --> 00:47:59,839
Speaker 1: more in detail. I just want to talk about one

755
00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:04,399
Speaker 1: aspected the detective's training unit. I remember remember at the time,

756
00:48:04,480 --> 00:48:06,080
Speaker 1: you were getting into a lot of trouble and there

757
00:48:06,120 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 1: was a lot of pressure because you decided that although

758
00:48:10,120 --> 00:48:13,040
Speaker 1: the politicians had promised and the senior police had promised

759
00:48:13,080 --> 00:48:16,319
Speaker 1: more detectives, you weren't going to pass the majority of

760
00:48:16,320 --> 00:48:18,120
Speaker 1: them because they weren't up to a standard that you

761
00:48:18,239 --> 00:48:20,520
Speaker 1: considered acceptable. How did that get pet.

762
00:48:21,480 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 2: I couldn't believe. To me, it was quite bizarre these

763
00:48:25,840 --> 00:48:33,680
Speaker 2: discussions and debates on changing the standard, like lowering the

764
00:48:33,800 --> 00:48:42,319
Speaker 2: past mark to like below fifty for recruiting purposes. And

765
00:48:42,520 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 2: I clearly this a balance has to be struck. But

766
00:48:46,920 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: it was to me like a no brainer that if

767
00:48:50,239 --> 00:48:54,800
Speaker 2: they didn't pass the exams, then they probably.

768
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 1: Should because in your in your position, you had to

769
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: sign off on the people are ready to go out

770
00:49:01,560 --> 00:49:02,920
Speaker 1: work with other detectives.

771
00:49:03,000 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 2: Yes, be designated to lead and to lead others and

772
00:49:08,880 --> 00:49:13,399
Speaker 2: to take charge of entire crime scenes, of which are

773
00:49:14,239 --> 00:49:18,000
Speaker 2: many of them are major crime scenes. So I was

774
00:49:18,840 --> 00:49:22,400
Speaker 2: a long debate, and I kept pushing back, and the

775
00:49:22,440 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 2: push was from people more senior to me, entrenched in

776
00:49:27,239 --> 00:49:30,719
Speaker 2: the world of the academy and believing it was possible.

777
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:35,920
Speaker 2: I did get a lot of assistance from State Crime

778
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:42,680
Speaker 2: Command who are agreed that people probably should pass their exams.

779
00:49:43,960 --> 00:49:48,520
Speaker 1: It sounds like a fairly concept, you know, with it,

780
00:49:48,640 --> 00:49:50,400
Speaker 1: you have exams so you can pass.

781
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:56,120
Speaker 2: And State Crime had a role as the lead detective advisor,

782
00:49:56,320 --> 00:50:00,560
Speaker 2: and I was. I was had an inaugural position on

783
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:07,600
Speaker 2: the first advisory panel to the Deputy Commissioner. And so

784
00:50:08,040 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: that's the argument that the people who failed should be

785
00:50:13,440 --> 00:50:17,160
Speaker 2: passed was lost. It was just the bizarre nature of

786
00:50:17,200 --> 00:50:18,760
Speaker 2: having to argue it in the first place.

787
00:50:18,880 --> 00:50:21,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I know how much it pissed you off,

788
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:23,279
Speaker 1: and that pissed me off and a lot of other

789
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:26,960
Speaker 1: people that don't. It should be something that we set standards.

790
00:50:27,040 --> 00:50:29,440
Speaker 1: We should strive for those standards and be proud of

791
00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:33,160
Speaker 1: because I remember when I got my detective's designation, because

792
00:50:33,160 --> 00:50:35,239
Speaker 1: we had to work so hard, I was so proud.

793
00:50:35,280 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: It was one of the proudest moments in the comps.

794
00:50:37,600 --> 00:50:40,840
Speaker 1: Walk out and you can finally cook yourself and you're.

795
00:50:40,680 --> 00:50:46,160
Speaker 2: Getting them standard not just of taking lead on jobs

796
00:50:46,520 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: and communicating with their bosses so that there's the informations

797
00:50:51,120 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 2: correct arguing for resources. It's beyond that. Is there going

798
00:50:55,600 --> 00:51:00,480
Speaker 2: to be in court facing the top lawyers, criminal law lawyers,

799
00:51:01,120 --> 00:51:04,960
Speaker 2: some of them unprincipled, who were going to cross examine them,

800
00:51:05,560 --> 00:51:12,480
Speaker 2: tackle them, make them look like idiots. Our role, My

801
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 2: role was to put them in the first position to

802
00:51:15,040 --> 00:51:17,200
Speaker 2: get the conviction and to not look like an idiot.

803
00:51:18,000 --> 00:51:20,160
Speaker 2: So passing exams is kind of part of it.

804
00:51:20,280 --> 00:51:22,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, look where that got you young to try

805
00:51:22,440 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 1: and take it all too serious. Okay, we're going to

806
00:51:24,840 --> 00:51:27,200
Speaker 1: finish off part two with a fun fact. It's a

807
00:51:27,280 --> 00:51:31,960
Speaker 1: bit embarrassing, but I'm ready. I'm not sure if I am.

808
00:51:31,960 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: I kick you on this well, we.

809
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:35,279
Speaker 2: Can kick you onto this table, can't.

810
00:51:35,480 --> 00:51:38,319
Speaker 1: What was I thinking when I wrote this down? But anyway, now,

811
00:51:38,400 --> 00:51:41,080
Speaker 1: when we first got together, I expressed an interest in

812
00:51:41,120 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: you and you knocked me back. And but you said

813
00:51:45,200 --> 00:51:47,759
Speaker 1: you admired my courage for being game enough to ask

814
00:51:47,800 --> 00:51:50,400
Speaker 1: you out, because most men are scared of you. And

815
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 1: let me tell you that that is true, because everyone

816
00:51:54,239 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 1: in the office feared you. And when eventually you came

817
00:51:57,000 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 1: to your senses and you decided to go out with me,

818
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:02,440
Speaker 1: everyone kept saying, jeez, you must be brave, as in

819
00:52:02,719 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 1: I must be brave. Question I'm going to ask in

820
00:52:05,160 --> 00:52:06,080
Speaker 1: the question I want brave?

821
00:52:06,160 --> 00:52:09,719
Speaker 2: But you are very happy, brave.

822
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,280
Speaker 1: And very content and very happy. Can I just ask

823
00:52:13,320 --> 00:52:15,399
Speaker 1: you this? And this is how we'll finish off part two?

824
00:52:15,960 --> 00:52:17,400
Speaker 1: Why do you think you're so intimidating?

825
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:22,360
Speaker 2: H This is when I haven't put my mind to

826
00:52:23,680 --> 00:52:26,279
Speaker 2: might come in two parts a bit to day and

827
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,960
Speaker 2: another time. Oh I think you know what I think

828
00:52:31,080 --> 00:52:35,320
Speaker 2: because I'm genuine I think because I speak my mind

829
00:52:35,440 --> 00:52:41,200
Speaker 2: and that people know what they're dealing with, that I'm

830
00:52:41,239 --> 00:52:47,400
Speaker 2: not inclined to be susceptible to peer group pressure. That

831
00:52:48,400 --> 00:52:53,480
Speaker 2: some loyalty in the police requires a person to be

832
00:52:53,560 --> 00:52:57,279
Speaker 2: susceptible to peer group pressure and to be agreeable or

833
00:52:57,320 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 2: supportive against their own principles. I think it just our

834
00:53:04,600 --> 00:53:09,040
Speaker 2: our job is very much played out, that we're always communicating,

835
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:12,880
Speaker 2: so much about communication, and so I just think people

836
00:53:13,080 --> 00:53:20,320
Speaker 2: hear me speak occasionally might say something correct or clever

837
00:53:21,080 --> 00:53:26,680
Speaker 2: or certainly clear, and I and other people don't might

838
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: not have the clarity on it is that I don't know.

839
00:53:29,440 --> 00:53:33,760
Speaker 1: I reckon that I wear boots. You've just given people

840
00:53:33,800 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 1: a good understanding why I was nervous asking you out.

841
00:53:36,920 --> 00:53:39,880
Speaker 1: I discussed it with my mate Jason, and he's a

842
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,879
Speaker 1: he's a.

843
00:53:42,640 --> 00:53:45,279
Speaker 2: A lovely man. He gave you your whole personality.

844
00:53:45,400 --> 00:53:49,239
Speaker 1: Well, so he says, I reckon. I had agree, but

845
00:53:49,640 --> 00:53:51,319
Speaker 1: I said, I think I'm going to ask me out.

846
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,399
Speaker 1: He's going I don't get that wrong. It could be ugly,

847
00:53:53,719 --> 00:53:57,800
Speaker 1: could be ugly, but anyway, that's a nice way to finish.

848
00:53:58,040 --> 00:54:00,959
Speaker 1: Finish part two. When we get back for Part three,

849
00:54:01,200 --> 00:54:03,480
Speaker 1: We've got a lot more to talk about. And one

850
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:05,640
Speaker 1: of the cases that I want to talk about because

851
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,080
Speaker 1: I reckon that's one of the most significant cases in

852
00:54:08,160 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 1: the in the country, the family law court bombings, and

853
00:54:12,120 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: you led that investigation successfully after a very long time,

854
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:19,479
Speaker 1: and I want to dive deep into that investigation because

855
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,840
Speaker 1: I think it's fascinating. But the magnitude of that crime,

856
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:25,600
Speaker 1: I just I think we've missed the point of how

857
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 1: significant that was. Where judges places have been.

858
00:54:28,600 --> 00:54:32,640
Speaker 2: There well, it has been described and the Prime Minister

859
00:54:32,719 --> 00:54:35,600
Speaker 2: at the time came out and formed the largest strikeforce

860
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:40,000
Speaker 2: that had ever been of combined federal military and New

861
00:54:40,040 --> 00:54:43,399
Speaker 2: South Wales police. Really significant. It has been described as

862
00:54:43,600 --> 00:54:49,160
Speaker 2: the most significant case of domestic terrorism ever in the country.

863
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,600
Speaker 2: And it was a very cold case when I got it,

864
00:54:53,680 --> 00:54:57,200
Speaker 2: and you might hear that we breathed some life into it.

865
00:54:57,560 --> 00:54:59,759
Speaker 1: We might hear that. So that'll be on part three

866
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:03,960
Speaker 1: when you come back. We've retired Detective Chief Inspector Pamela.

867
00:55:03,719 --> 00:55:06,680
Speaker 2: Young And why do you think I'm intimidating.

868
00:55:08,120 --> 00:55:10,640
Speaker 1: And when we get back to part when we get

869
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: back to part three, oh, I answer that question. Why

870
00:55:13,760 --> 00:55:16,600
Speaker 1: I think you're intimidating, because Jesus, if you fuck up,

871
00:55:16,640 --> 00:55:19,400
Speaker 1: you're in trouble, all right, thank you,