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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life the average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys, said,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of I Catch Killers. When today's

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Speaker 1: guest and I finished the detective's training course back in

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Speaker 1: nineteen ninety, we were young, fresh faced, and ready to

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Speaker 1: take on the world as newly designated detectives. We had

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Speaker 1: no idea where our care we're going to take us,

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Speaker 1: but we're excited. Our paths went off in different directions,

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Speaker 1: but we got to see things in life most people

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Speaker 1: don't get to see or experience. That's just part of

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Speaker 1: being a detective. Today's guest, retired Detective Sergeant Bob Wells,

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Speaker 1: has had an interesting career. He worked in the country

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Speaker 1: at one man police stations. He worked as a detective

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Speaker 1: in country areas and also as a rescue squad operator,

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Speaker 1: and he also led a homicide investigation they have to

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Speaker 1: say was one of the most brutal and macabre murders

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Speaker 1: I've heard about in my entire time in homicide. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking about the murder of John Price by his partner

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Speaker 1: Katherine Knight. Katherine Knight is the first woman in Australia

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Speaker 1: to be given a life sentence without parole. When you

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Speaker 1: hear about the nature of the crime, you'll understand why

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Speaker 1: Boby's going to talk to us about his career and

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Speaker 1: the personal price is paid as a frontline police officer.

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Speaker 1: And I also think a listener warning is probably appropriate

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Speaker 1: here given the nature of the crime Bob will be discussing.

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Speaker 1: Bob Wells, welcome. Do I catch killers?

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Speaker 2: Thanks Garry well I got.

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Speaker 1: To say, last time it could be. The last time

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Speaker 1: was probably when we walked out as newly designated detectives

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Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety ninety ninety.

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Speaker 2: That was it. Yes, Yes, I was pretty proud of

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Speaker 2: myself that day.

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Speaker 1: It was a big day, wasn't it.

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Speaker 2: Well, I'm not an academically inclined guy, so the ex

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Speaker 2: course for me was quite hard.

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Speaker 1: Well, we had that conversation the other day and I

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Speaker 1: wanted to raise it with you because I didn't want

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Speaker 1: to say it if you said no, it was easy.

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Speaker 1: That was a very very hard course.

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Speaker 2: It was. I think it was the last course. It

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Speaker 2: was actually held in Sydney before it moved to the

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Speaker 2: Academy in.

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Speaker 1: Goldban And I remember, and we're talking about it the

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Speaker 1: other day that if you failed the exams or the

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Speaker 1: brief of evidence that you had to put through your

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Speaker 1: cut from the course, that's it. You're given the tap

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Speaker 1: on the shoulder and said see you later.

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Speaker 2: They come Monday, and I think it's changed and so dramatically.

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Speaker 1: Actually, yeah, yeah, we were talking about the Detective's Course

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Speaker 1: a couple of episodes back, and yeah, they that they

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Speaker 1: were graded or designated. But I've got to say with

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Speaker 1: the course, when you did walk out as a detective,

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Speaker 1: then that was one of my proudest moments in the

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Speaker 1: cops because you had the work so hard for it.

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Speaker 2: Oh you did, Yeah, one hundred percent. Like I said,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't academically inclined, And I guess the roots behind

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Speaker 2: that was I went to high school for two reasons.

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Speaker 2: One was to see my mates in sport. Yeah, so

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Speaker 2: I wasn't academically.

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Speaker 1: You look back at those days and think, jeez, we

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Speaker 1: could have paid a little bit more attention. But I

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Speaker 1: understand where you where you're coming from. But yeah, well

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Speaker 1: walking out there. That's not to say that we didn't

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Speaker 1: have fun. But I still do not remember studying as

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Speaker 1: hard as I studied during those six weeks because it

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Speaker 1: was done in two blocks. But the final six weeks,

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Speaker 1: I think and just study every night every weekend.

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Speaker 2: Well, I was down from the country, so and I

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Speaker 2: think it was half a dozen of us, and we

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Speaker 2: were at the.

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Speaker 1: Old you had the party house.

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Speaker 2: We had the party or part of units. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: but and we said had a little bit of fun

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Speaker 2: at night. I mean a lot of the inner city

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Speaker 2: guys sort of went home, but a lot stayed on

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Speaker 2: and we had quite a few great nights at the

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Speaker 2: old Elizabeth Hotel. Yeah, just across the road. So a

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Speaker 2: lot of fun has had. It was a lot of

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Speaker 2: fun was had. Yeah, it was good, But getting back

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Speaker 2: to that the serious side of it, it was taxing

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Speaker 2: for me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. Well no, I found it the same way. And

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Speaker 1: the fact that you talked about drinking it seemed to

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Speaker 1: be synonymous with life as a detective and working hard

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Speaker 1: and drinking hard back in those days.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, idea it was. It was part of the culture.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I think that's a way of putting it. The culture.

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Speaker 1: Now we got so much to so much to talk

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Speaker 1: about your career and your career in the country and

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Speaker 1: working in the one man station. Your career is a detective.

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Speaker 1: But one of the cases that your career is going

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Speaker 1: to be linked with, whether you like it or not,

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Speaker 1: is the murder of John Price by Catherine Knight. Yes,

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Speaker 1: and that was back in two thousand and I got

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Speaker 1: to say, it's one of the most brutal, macabre murders

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Speaker 1: heard about when all my time in homicide. We're going

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Speaker 1: to delve deeply into that because I want you to

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Speaker 1: take us on the whole journey through the investigation, because

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Speaker 1: you led that investigation and Catherine Knight is now convicted

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Speaker 1: of the murder and has been sentenced to life imprisonment.

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Speaker 1: With no parole. Can you just tell us just to

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Speaker 1: get a sense of it, what you discovered when you

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Speaker 1: first went to that crime soon.

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Speaker 2: Well, basically the crime scene was fairly horrific. It was

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Speaker 2: there was a lot of blood, which you would imagine

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Speaker 2: would be in such a thing. But what struck me was,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I've done us a couple of stabbing murders

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Speaker 2: during my career. A stab as a stab, you know,

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Speaker 2: once or twice, but the number of stabbings and then

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Speaker 2: the sheer calculated removal of someone's complete skin and the

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Speaker 2: capitation is something that you think about how crafted and

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Speaker 2: how skilled a person would have been it would have

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Speaker 2: done that, how long it would have taken, why it

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Speaker 2: was done, and the consequences that it was going to

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Speaker 2: hold for myself and my workmates as a result of

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Speaker 2: that investigation.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so that's what you were confronted with when you've

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Speaker 1: come into the crime scene, that someone has literally been

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Speaker 1: decapitated but also skinned.

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Speaker 2: Completely, and I think you think it was to see

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Speaker 2: someone's full whether you'd call it a pelt or a

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Speaker 2: skin just hanging on a butcher's hook in a doorway

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Speaker 2: is just a very confronting situation.

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Speaker 1: Okay, Well, look, we'll probably start off on a low

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Speaker 1: talking about that because it's horrific crime, and I want

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Speaker 1: to talk a little bit about the victim in that

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Speaker 1: because it shouldn't it shouldn't be forgotten. But the investigation,

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Speaker 1: how it played out, and what your impressions of Catherine

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Speaker 1: and I were, because you got to got to interview

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Speaker 1: her in an understanding of it. So let's lighten it

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Speaker 1: up a little bit. And before we get into that, cops,

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Speaker 1: you came from a policing family.

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Speaker 2: My father was a police officer. He was a motorcycle

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Speaker 2: the oldest TP before the High Patrol was renamed or

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Speaker 2: rebadged so as they say. And then his brother, my uncle,

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Speaker 2: was also in the police force. But so I sort

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Speaker 2: of grew up around cops, mainly through the social outings

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Speaker 2: of my parents, my father, those sorts of things. I

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Speaker 2: was always around cops. So it was it wasn't strange

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Speaker 2: to me, but it wasn't exactly something that I aspired

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Speaker 2: to because of that situation.

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Speaker 1: Right, So it was you were familiar with it, but

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Speaker 1: it wasn't that you didn't wake up and say, I'll

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Speaker 1: grow up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to be like some kids group and

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Speaker 2: they want to be a want to be a fire

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Speaker 2: and they want to be a policeman, they want to

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Speaker 2: be whatever. I never had. That was probably one of

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Speaker 2: the last things that ended into my mind as a career.

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Speaker 1: So what swung you there?

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Speaker 2: What's fun me there?

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Speaker 1: Was?

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Speaker 2: I was quite happy where I was working at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I wasn't a straight out of school graduate into

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Speaker 2: the police. I wasn't an ex cadet. I actually didn't

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Speaker 2: sort of move towards thinking about joining the police until

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Speaker 2: I was twenty one, and then it was through conversations

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Speaker 2: with my father about I wanted to back back in

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Speaker 2: the seven nineteen seventy He said, it wasn't a lot

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Speaker 2: of superannuation around for people, and I always sort of

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Speaker 2: wanted to have to look to my future for myself

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Speaker 2: and my family in relation to financial matters and financial

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Speaker 2: stability for the future. So where I was actually working,

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Speaker 2: I really enjoy working there, but there was none of

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Speaker 2: those benefits for the people for the people where I worked.

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Speaker 2: So it was just through a casual conversation with my

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Speaker 2: father one day he said, what do you think about

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Speaker 2: join the cops. I've got a great set of vanuation.

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Speaker 1: Scheme's some good advice.

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Speaker 2: It was about the best advice I ever got from him.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, so I looked at it and thought, well,

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Speaker 2: i'll have a crack. So well, you drove me down

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Speaker 2: to Sydney. I went in and the rest is history.

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Speaker 2: You took me a couple of cracks.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you were telling me about that. Talk us through

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Speaker 1: that the first time. You didn't make it. Well, basically

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Speaker 1: visit late seventies.

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Speaker 2: It's just in about nineteen seventy seven, sony, And the

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Speaker 2: only entrance criteria then was to pass the spelling. Sorry,

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Speaker 2: in those days we still said height, chest measurement, but

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Speaker 2: that sort of thing. So I had those categories covered.

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Speaker 2: The spelling. I thought I was as good speller. However,

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Speaker 2: I went into this room when there was about eighty

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Speaker 2: prospective young people there, and I found the spelling to

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Speaker 2: be quite hard. Actually it was. I thought, jeez, I

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Speaker 2: didn't expect this sort of thing. But I only failed

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Speaker 2: by a couple of words. And out of that eighty

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Speaker 2: odd people are in their room that day, I think

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Speaker 2: only three or four past that went through. When I

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Speaker 2: was given the tap on the sholder and I said, listen, mate,

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Speaker 2: you weren't far away, but I just can't push it

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Speaker 2: through on the couple you got wrong. So just take

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Speaker 2: a bit of advice. Next time you see the advertisement

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Speaker 2: in the Daily Telegraph for wanting police recruits, come back down.

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Speaker 2: He said, I think you'll find the spelling a lot easier.

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Speaker 1: And was that just regulating because you had eighty people

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Speaker 1: there and then you're only going to take well.

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Speaker 2: I only just filled the class, I think, and they

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Speaker 2: didn't really want.

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Speaker 1: Recruits, but they had to just kept making the words harder.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think they had. I think they had a

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Speaker 2: program if they would have so many interesting exams every

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Speaker 2: week or fortnite, so the numbers that fronted up, they'll

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Speaker 2: probably wored it out until they wanted recruits by the

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Speaker 2: difficulty of the spelling. I met. That's that was my impression.

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Speaker 2: So I went back when I saw an advertisement a

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Speaker 2: few months later, plus I brushed up a little bit

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Speaker 2: on spelling, and look, I went back in the next

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Speaker 2: time and there was sixty people in the room, and

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Speaker 2: everybody passed with flying colors because basically most of the

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Speaker 2: words the next ting beyond six letters cats. Yes, pretty much.

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Speaker 1: I forgot about the spelling tests, and I remember standing

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Speaker 1: there practicing words like catch ce at c H catch

225
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Speaker 1: harder words than that. But you had a list of

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Speaker 1: words and you had to remember them as best you.

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Speaker 2: Well, I think eventually and you learned. You knew why

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Speaker 2: it was because there was so much paperwork in the cops.

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Speaker 1: And you're typing skills. Okay, so you eventually learned how

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Speaker 1: the spell cat and Matt and Sat got through that.

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Speaker 1: You got through that, but then you had another hurdle

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Speaker 1: fil the blood.

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Speaker 2: Pressure young fit twenty one year old, high blood pressure. Anyway,

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Speaker 2: to cut the story a little bit shorter, I went

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Speaker 2: to see with GP about well I might have had

236
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Speaker 2: high blood pressure. He checked my blood pressure and it

237
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Speaker 2: was perfect. I think you're just suffering a little bit

238
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Speaker 2: of nerves and you get a little bit excited and

239
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Speaker 2: your blood pressure increases. He said, just try and relax

240
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Speaker 2: a little bit when you're go in and have one

241
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Speaker 2: of these tablets. If you want to behalf of this

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Speaker 2: tablet like calm you down. I think it was a

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Speaker 2: Sarah Pax, I think. Anyway, I had that half a

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Speaker 2: tablet and my parts were flying colors. Eventually, the blood

245
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Speaker 2: pressure test then went through the like test, which was

246
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Speaker 2: very very I think Old Dr Peterson was one of

247
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Speaker 2: the gmails on that one. So I got through that

248
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Speaker 2: and eventually waited and actually you had to nominate some

249
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Speaker 2: people and normally nominated the parents of good friends of

250
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Speaker 2: yours and I were interviewed, Yeah, the usual thing, and

251
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Speaker 2: then got to start. Got to start in nineteen seventy nine.

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Speaker 1: Okay, so some of the stations you worked at Eastwood,

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Speaker 1: Gosford started.

254
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Speaker 2: Off as one of the Gosford I think they used

255
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Speaker 2: to go on the Gosford tongue in those days, because

256
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Speaker 2: I think most people who lived in Gossip or the

257
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Speaker 2: Central Coast area were stationed it strategically at places like Hornsby, Chatswood,

258
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Speaker 2: Eastwood basically because of the distance to travel, and you

259
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Speaker 2: were cooled by the locals as the Gosford tongue in

260
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Speaker 2: those days. Anyway, I did part of my probation those

261
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Speaker 2: first six weeks with a buddy at Gosford, then got

262
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Speaker 2: speed back to Eastwood, where I worked for another twelve months.

263
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Speaker 2: A bit over before coming from the country, I grew

264
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Speaker 2: up in the coal fields area of the hunta valley

265
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Speaker 2: in the little town called Western New Curry Curry. As

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Speaker 2: a country boy, I just wanted to get out of

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Speaker 2: the city. It wasn't It wasn't the game for me,

268
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Speaker 2: and also would in those days was a bit of

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Speaker 2: a It was fairly quite station, you know, so you

270
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Speaker 2: really wanted any probation because when I first started, you

271
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Speaker 2: didn't even want to have a day off.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so you enjoyed it when when you got in

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Speaker 1: there there was a probation, very constable.

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Speaker 2: It was a complete I ap. The camaraderie in that

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Speaker 2: amongst the guys was unbelievable. But it was just that

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Speaker 2: the sheer experience of seeing things that most of the

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Speaker 2: public don't get to sea. It just popped up every day,

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Speaker 2: you know, day in day out, and there was always something.

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Speaker 2: Even for quiet a station, there was always something happening.

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Speaker 2: You know, it was a dust real accident and you

281
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Speaker 2: looked at things and thought, wow, you know, like this

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Speaker 2: is just yeah, I've never seen a dead body. Before

283
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Speaker 2: I joined the cops. I used to get to deadens

284
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Speaker 2: and that sort of thing, and I'll never forget the

285
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Speaker 2: first dead body ever saw, you know, it was just

286
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Speaker 2: a guy went missing in one of the old home

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Speaker 2: it's just around the police and they said you're going

288
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Speaker 2: to climb that. You're the probation are you're going up

289
00:14:03,559 --> 00:14:05,640
Speaker 2: that ladder and you're going Because he had about five

290
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Speaker 2: double deadlocks on his door in the unit, had to

291
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Speaker 2: go through the window, and I could see this body

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Speaker 2: lying in a bed with a handkerchief over his face,

293
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Speaker 2: of all things. But you know, I'm balancing on the

294
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Speaker 2: windowsill trying to yell out to this guy. His name

295
00:14:20,320 --> 00:14:22,800
Speaker 2: was Zeril. Anyway, in the end, I just toppled over

296
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Speaker 2: and I've just crashed all of the Venetian blinds off

297
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Speaker 2: the window, landed on the floor upside down, fighting my

298
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Speaker 2: way out of the Venician blind Veoenician blinds, just to

299
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Speaker 2: have a look at and get to the light switch

300
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Speaker 2: to get it on. And he was just a ceasing bed.

301
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Speaker 2: So that's my experience of the first dead person I've

302
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Speaker 2: ever seen.

303
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Speaker 1: They're bizarre experiences and they're hard to prepare you for them,

304
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Speaker 1: aren't they You You're really You're going there with your

305
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Speaker 1: eyes open, and it's just okay, this is the world,

306
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Speaker 1: the world that a lot of people don't get to see.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, Well, a lot of reliefs. I get to

308
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Speaker 2: find the elderly relatives to cease those sorts of things,

309
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Speaker 2: but that's more personal for them. But this sort of

310
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Speaker 2: started the ball rolling where this became a you know,

311
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Speaker 2: it was just in the end, it was just there's

312
00:15:04,120 --> 00:15:06,120
Speaker 2: nothing to be worried about. There was nothing to be

313
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Speaker 2: nervous about. There's nothing to be shocked about. Yeah, throughout

314
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Speaker 2: the career.

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Speaker 1: And did you your personality type, did you feel like

316
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Speaker 1: the job fitted you? Like it it was something that

317
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Speaker 1: you were glad you discovered it.

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Speaker 2: I think so well. I think so, Yeah, because most

319
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Speaker 2: of the guys I worked was you know, ninety percent

320
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Speaker 2: of the guys I worked with were just fantastic people.

321
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Speaker 2: You've got to have a sense of humor. I thought

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Speaker 2: I thought I had that so and I think that's

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Speaker 2: part of you do briefing to have a sense of humor.

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Speaker 2: Some people who bottle things up from the word go,

325
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Speaker 2: we're going to struggle with this with that particular lifestyle.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's a positive. Like police often get criticized

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Speaker 1: about the culture, and yeah, there was problems with the culture,

328
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Speaker 1: but there's also some positives about the culture. Yeah, the

329
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Speaker 1: black humor that we have, the way that you deal

330
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Speaker 1: with the tragedies that you confront each day in the cops.

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Speaker 2: And you only used that amongst your workmates. Yeah, and

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Speaker 2: it was. It is an exclusive club what everybody says.

333
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Speaker 2: I think it's probably like the military. It's probably like

334
00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,480
Speaker 2: the ambas and the fieries. They have that exclusivity about

335
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Speaker 2: the culture within their organization, and.

336
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Speaker 1: It's in the terminology like you join the police, you

337
00:16:16,600 --> 00:16:20,880
Speaker 1: join the army, you join the ambulance. You know o it. Yeah,

338
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Speaker 1: they ain't describe it that way.

339
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Speaker 2: One hundred percent. You do join it. And they put

340
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Speaker 2: a bit of discipline in my life early life, you know,

341
00:16:28,240 --> 00:16:31,600
Speaker 2: especially in your junior ranks, and sometimes that's a thing

342
00:16:31,640 --> 00:16:34,720
Speaker 2: a lot of people like because it lessens them on

343
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Speaker 2: making certain decisions. They just learn to follow and do

344
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Speaker 2: as they're told and do quite a good job. It's

345
00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:44,040
Speaker 2: when you move on to the supervisory roles that things

346
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Speaker 2: can be a little bit harder.

347
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Speaker 1: Yeah, well you did you have a good role model

348
00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:49,600
Speaker 1: people that you identified and thought, that's the type of

349
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Speaker 1: cop I want to want to be.

350
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Speaker 2: I did when I went to Gold And actually they

351
00:16:52,560 --> 00:16:54,480
Speaker 2: had a mentor that I worked a lot with was

352
00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 2: a sergeant by the name of Pat Carle who ended

353
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Speaker 2: up at the academy where he deserved to be because

354
00:16:59,320 --> 00:17:00,600
Speaker 2: he was just that sort of guy who can get

355
00:17:00,600 --> 00:17:02,680
Speaker 2: across the poop. But I really worked a lot in

356
00:17:02,800 --> 00:17:07,080
Speaker 2: uniform with Pat, and hence he was my man station

357
00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,679
Speaker 2: from down to Southern Highlands before he got a sergeant

358
00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:12,600
Speaker 2: job at Goldban and how I really looked up to

359
00:17:12,680 --> 00:17:16,520
Speaker 2: Pat Cole and his style of policing and just a

360
00:17:16,560 --> 00:17:19,000
Speaker 2: person he was also and that sort of bumped me

361
00:17:19,000 --> 00:17:21,119
Speaker 2: along too, wanting that one man station and working.

362
00:17:21,160 --> 00:17:23,679
Speaker 1: Yeah, you said that before we started the podcast, that

363
00:17:23,720 --> 00:17:26,560
Speaker 1: you wanted the one man station. I can understand the attraction.

364
00:17:26,640 --> 00:17:29,320
Speaker 1: There's something about it, but it's also a little bit

365
00:17:29,400 --> 00:17:32,359
Speaker 1: daunting them very lanely with the responsibility that comes with

366
00:17:32,440 --> 00:17:33,320
Speaker 1: a one man's station.

367
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Speaker 2: I think the Southern Highlands is not a busy place,

368
00:17:37,800 --> 00:17:38,159
Speaker 2: whether you.

369
00:17:38,200 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 1: Okay Southern Highlands for people that we're talking around the

370
00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:42,479
Speaker 1: Golbin exactly.

371
00:17:42,800 --> 00:17:45,199
Speaker 2: It's a terribly cold placing winner there's not a lot

372
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:48,000
Speaker 2: of crime during There wasn't back in these days the

373
00:17:48,080 --> 00:17:50,640
Speaker 2: late seventies and early eighties. The Collector was a very

374
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Speaker 2: very quiet, little my man station. But I was also

375
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Speaker 2: lucky enough to be on one man station when you

376
00:17:55,359 --> 00:17:59,240
Speaker 2: didn't when you were at your station seven days a week, thround,

377
00:17:59,320 --> 00:18:02,080
Speaker 2: sixty five days ye, it was your station. You weren't

378
00:18:02,080 --> 00:18:04,879
Speaker 2: called in to fill holes in the roster at Gulbin,

379
00:18:05,160 --> 00:18:07,800
Speaker 2: you weren't. You weren't simp to any other stations to

380
00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,399
Speaker 2: fill in a gap just because of staffing issues. That

381
00:18:10,560 --> 00:18:12,399
Speaker 2: was your station and that's where you worked.

382
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:14,199
Speaker 1: How long had you been in the cops before you

383
00:18:14,359 --> 00:18:15,560
Speaker 1: took on a one man station.

384
00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:18,400
Speaker 2: I was just under four years.

385
00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:21,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, the four years you get trained in the

386
00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:24,480
Speaker 1: deep end, you start the nay, you trade after four years.

387
00:18:24,760 --> 00:18:26,240
Speaker 2: Well, I got my first hook when I was at

388
00:18:26,680 --> 00:18:27,879
Speaker 2: when I was at Collector.

389
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:31,840
Speaker 1: So because I haven't spoken to someone running it like

390
00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,480
Speaker 1: a one man station. So Collector described the town.

391
00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:43,439
Speaker 2: Very, very small town, mainly farmers, farming families. There was

392
00:18:43,520 --> 00:18:47,439
Speaker 2: a couple of garages in town. The old Federal Highway

393
00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:51,640
Speaker 2: ran right through the middle of town. Summer was generally

394
00:18:51,800 --> 00:18:54,800
Speaker 2: extremely quiet. Winter it hotted up a little bit because

395
00:18:54,840 --> 00:18:58,439
Speaker 2: of the sheer volume of traffic that flows through that town,

396
00:18:58,720 --> 00:19:02,359
Speaker 2: especially around around that first week in June, the avenue

397
00:19:02,359 --> 00:19:04,679
Speaker 2: of the school season. It was just headlights from as

398
00:19:04,720 --> 00:19:06,520
Speaker 2: far as you could see from Collector Hideny woos Queen

399
00:19:06,600 --> 00:19:09,960
Speaker 2: Bean along Lake George, and that was the busy time.

400
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:12,680
Speaker 2: That was the times when people were impatient, they overtook

401
00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:15,199
Speaker 2: when they shouldn't have head on collisions, a lot of

402
00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:21,960
Speaker 2: fatal accidents, a lot of accidents with extremely severe injuries.

403
00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,680
Speaker 2: And in those days there was no radio coverage. When

404
00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,719
Speaker 2: you were along Lake George. You had to rely on

405
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,280
Speaker 2: as a police officer getting someone in a car that

406
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 2: could get into collect that to get to the public

407
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:35,040
Speaker 2: phone to bring you an ambulance from garb and so

408
00:19:35,200 --> 00:19:36,600
Speaker 2: you could be anywhere on the side of the road

409
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:40,200
Speaker 2: with severely injured people for quite a long time without

410
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:45,360
Speaker 2: you've got any assistance from the ambulance. And in those days,

411
00:19:45,400 --> 00:19:50,160
Speaker 2: as a young guy with people severely injured and people dead,

412
00:19:51,080 --> 00:19:53,879
Speaker 2: to see a set of ambulance lights coming across that

413
00:19:54,440 --> 00:19:56,959
Speaker 2: straight along Lake George to where you were was just

414
00:19:58,240 --> 00:19:59,160
Speaker 2: a huge relief.

415
00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:02,800
Speaker 1: So Bobby talking here, I would assume one man's station.

416
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:05,840
Speaker 1: You're responding to these accidents on your own. You go

417
00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:10,159
Speaker 1: there and you find people decease, people injured, and just

418
00:20:10,200 --> 00:20:14,440
Speaker 1: say confronting the people needing urgent attention, and you're stuck

419
00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:16,880
Speaker 1: there and you're not You're not on a radio, You've

420
00:20:16,920 --> 00:20:18,600
Speaker 1: got no no coverage.

421
00:20:18,520 --> 00:20:21,919
Speaker 2: Oble Phanes and those days, those days, and you know,

422
00:20:22,040 --> 00:20:25,080
Speaker 2: and and everybody wanted a piece you you know, people

423
00:20:25,080 --> 00:20:27,920
Speaker 2: who weren't injured, who pulled up, witnesses, those sorts of things.

424
00:20:29,240 --> 00:20:31,280
Speaker 2: They wanted your attention all at the same time. So

425
00:20:31,359 --> 00:20:33,280
Speaker 2: it was sort of, you know, a little bit daunting, you.

426
00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:36,520
Speaker 1: Know, because you're wearing the blue uniform. They expect you

427
00:20:36,560 --> 00:20:37,120
Speaker 1: know everything.

428
00:20:37,280 --> 00:20:40,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you can do everything, just sometimes you can't.

429
00:20:42,280 --> 00:20:44,560
Speaker 1: I spent a long time in homicide, and I saw

430
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,560
Speaker 1: some horrific things in homicide. But I still remember the

431
00:20:47,600 --> 00:20:49,920
Speaker 1: accidents I went to where you see people dying or

432
00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:52,680
Speaker 1: the trapped in cars and screaming out for help. But

433
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:53,879
Speaker 1: how did that affect you?

434
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:56,399
Speaker 2: Well, it didn't really affect me at the time, and

435
00:20:56,440 --> 00:20:59,159
Speaker 2: you realize as you go through your career that and

436
00:20:59,240 --> 00:21:03,160
Speaker 2: looking back, that was the start. That was the start

437
00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:05,000
Speaker 2: of the undoing.

438
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,640
Speaker 1: Of most police officers, right build up of the stress and.

439
00:21:07,800 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 2: Exactly and the pressure that you eventually get to that

440
00:21:13,080 --> 00:21:16,800
Speaker 2: twenty year, twenty year plus period in your career when

441
00:21:16,840 --> 00:21:18,600
Speaker 2: you've made the cops of career. I don't think many

442
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:22,159
Speaker 2: people make the cops of career anymore. They don't go

443
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:25,320
Speaker 2: to it. The people like I'm talking about current time now,

444
00:21:25,680 --> 00:21:27,199
Speaker 2: don't really go to looking to say I'm going to

445
00:21:27,200 --> 00:21:30,160
Speaker 2: spend thirty to forty years in this job and make

446
00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: it a career and call my way to the top.

447
00:21:32,320 --> 00:21:35,080
Speaker 2: I don't think that is in the majority of people

448
00:21:35,080 --> 00:21:37,479
Speaker 2: who go into the organization now. But back when I did,

449
00:21:37,480 --> 00:21:40,480
Speaker 2: everybody sort of dominate career of this because you know,

450
00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:45,080
Speaker 2: but I found out around that twenty years that those

451
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: sorts of things when I didn't want to have a

452
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:48,320
Speaker 2: day off when I first joined, I said, I want

453
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:50,040
Speaker 2: a day off, want to keep going. This is fantastic.

454
00:21:50,040 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 2: I nevers anything like this my life, you know. And

455
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,040
Speaker 2: then and those things, the pressure wasn't there then it

456
00:21:57,160 --> 00:22:00,600
Speaker 2: was just your job, you know. And then when you

457
00:22:00,600 --> 00:22:02,960
Speaker 2: get to that ten year period, your job goes, oh,

458
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:05,920
Speaker 2: you know, I like some good parts about the job,

459
00:22:05,920 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 2: and there's jobs that I an't like going to I don't,

460
00:22:07,640 --> 00:22:09,440
Speaker 2: but you got to do them because that's your job.

461
00:22:09,880 --> 00:22:11,520
Speaker 1: Do you do you think you get to that point

462
00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:15,679
Speaker 1: where initially everything was exciting, even the horrific stuff like

463
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:18,119
Speaker 1: I never thought I'd see this, and are you're doing it?

464
00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,960
Speaker 1: And then when you realize I've seen this before, I

465
00:22:21,000 --> 00:22:23,639
Speaker 1: don't need to see this again, and it just wears

466
00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:24,440
Speaker 1: you down a lot.

467
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,160
Speaker 2: That starts and that starts. But you know what we're

468
00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,520
Speaker 2: talking about, a collector. Was that was when I looked

469
00:22:29,560 --> 00:22:30,200
Speaker 2: back at the start.

470
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but you.

471
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 2: Know I did have one incident. The only other incident

472
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,360
Speaker 2: that really shook me a little bit was I went

473
00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:40,600
Speaker 2: we had quite a large number of properties in it

474
00:22:40,640 --> 00:22:43,600
Speaker 2: was a property called Leratter Station which had a number

475
00:22:43,600 --> 00:22:45,199
Speaker 2: of workers working on it. And I went to a

476
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:49,040
Speaker 2: to a call of domestic one night and I went

477
00:22:49,119 --> 00:22:50,520
Speaker 2: up to I knew these people went up to the

478
00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: house and just so I got to the front door,

479
00:22:54,119 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: it was a just as I opened it, the husband

480
00:22:57,000 --> 00:22:59,760
Speaker 2: stuck a twenty two straight in the stomach and it

481
00:23:00,400 --> 00:23:03,280
Speaker 2: sheer instinct and I think, and he's fairly when intoxicated.

482
00:23:03,640 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: I just the reaction was to grab the rifle of

483
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 2: that gun and just point it straight in the air

484
00:23:09,200 --> 00:23:11,399
Speaker 2: of which and I managed to get it off him,

485
00:23:11,480 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: you know, and arresting. But that's what I started again.

486
00:23:17,080 --> 00:23:20,399
Speaker 2: You know, as I look back another that was another

487
00:23:20,440 --> 00:23:21,000
Speaker 2: start of.

488
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:25,240
Speaker 1: The well confronting things. They have a drunken, aggressive man

489
00:23:25,280 --> 00:23:27,200
Speaker 1: with a rifle stuck in your stomach and pull the

490
00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,679
Speaker 1: tryer and who knows what happens. That's right, yeah, and

491
00:23:30,880 --> 00:23:32,600
Speaker 1: you face that on your own. What was it like

492
00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:35,440
Speaker 1: in the One Man Station because you're twenty four to

493
00:23:35,480 --> 00:23:38,000
Speaker 1: seven the cop. People don't look at you anything different,

494
00:23:38,000 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: whether you're working or not. You're still the cop. Could

495
00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 1: you have a social life there? Could you have a life?

496
00:23:42,200 --> 00:23:44,200
Speaker 2: We had great. We did have a great social life

497
00:23:44,240 --> 00:23:48,480
Speaker 2: there because because of the small town, they're very they're

498
00:23:48,520 --> 00:23:55,320
Speaker 2: very social, good hotel owner, you know. I sat a

499
00:23:55,359 --> 00:23:58,159
Speaker 2: little bit the twigged with me with looking at the

500
00:23:58,160 --> 00:23:59,800
Speaker 2: plane clothes guys. When I was at the One Man

501
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,200
Speaker 2: was collected was strategically placed between Golban and Queen Beyan,

502
00:24:04,720 --> 00:24:09,679
Speaker 2: where you had detective's officers who just love to say,

503
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,399
Speaker 2: let's catch up halfway to collector come all get wellsy

504
00:24:12,440 --> 00:24:14,480
Speaker 2: out the station, you'll come down have a beer with us,

505
00:24:14,800 --> 00:24:16,760
Speaker 2: which was the fane would ring and say getting out

506
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:18,720
Speaker 2: of here, and there there's a blue one at the pub,

507
00:24:18,840 --> 00:24:20,320
Speaker 2: you know, and of course you knew their voices and

508
00:24:21,280 --> 00:24:23,840
Speaker 2: I'm on my way and off you'd go, you know.

509
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: And I got to know a lot of the detectives

510
00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: from the Queen Beyan yes, and the Golden area fairly well.

511
00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,000
Speaker 2: But plus working at Golbin early before I went to collector.

512
00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, it was. But the townspeople were really really

513
00:24:38,119 --> 00:24:41,320
Speaker 2: great people, and they had lots of lots of social things,

514
00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:44,639
Speaker 2: and they were money to raise money for things like

515
00:24:44,760 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 2: the school. It was only a very small school which

516
00:24:48,720 --> 00:24:50,920
Speaker 2: had one point when I was here, I think there

517
00:24:51,000 --> 00:24:53,879
Speaker 2: was twelve children, and I think seven of those were

518
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:59,760
Speaker 2: from the one family. And also those were my means

519
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:01,919
Speaker 2: one manners in those days. When you went there, you

520
00:25:02,000 --> 00:25:05,800
Speaker 2: automately became the president of the Pens Association, You became

521
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:10,199
Speaker 2: secretary of the cricket club, and you became another office

522
00:25:10,320 --> 00:25:13,119
Speaker 2: holder with some other social club in the town, you know,

523
00:25:13,640 --> 00:25:16,520
Speaker 2: and those sorts of things. So you sort of if

524
00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:18,280
Speaker 2: you went there as a cop, you went there as

525
00:25:18,440 --> 00:25:21,000
Speaker 2: one of the lynchpins of the town in the community.

526
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,159
Speaker 1: Did you have any ugly situations there where people that

527
00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,880
Speaker 1: you were friends with you had to no?

528
00:25:27,440 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: Never, oh one, yes, sorry, the publican son, I had

529
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:34,879
Speaker 2: to knock him off for a bit of pot, right, okay,

530
00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 2: which is which we which was a hurdle at the

531
00:25:37,520 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: publican and I got over.

532
00:25:39,240 --> 00:25:42,520
Speaker 1: Okay, Well, you're going to manage your way through that exactly.

533
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,000
Speaker 2: But yeah, but not not seriously.

534
00:25:44,880 --> 00:25:48,600
Speaker 1: Seriously, Okay, you you left there? Were you married at

535
00:25:48,600 --> 00:25:48,840
Speaker 1: the time.

536
00:25:48,880 --> 00:25:50,560
Speaker 2: I was married at the time and went through a

537
00:25:50,640 --> 00:25:53,159
Speaker 2: marriage breakdown whilst a collector, and I was there for

538
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,399
Speaker 2: I was there for a little while longer as as

539
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:59,800
Speaker 2: a lone person because the super at the time one

540
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:02,560
Speaker 2: of me out of the place. Virtually, I didn't care

541
00:26:03,160 --> 00:26:04,800
Speaker 2: had you gone through a marriage breakdown, you might be

542
00:26:04,840 --> 00:26:10,800
Speaker 2: suffering any form of sadness, you know, just get out

543
00:26:10,840 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: because we need a married man in there. And I thought, oh, geez,

544
00:26:14,400 --> 00:26:15,600
Speaker 2: you're such a scaring person.

545
00:26:15,720 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: So you were sorry just to run this run this pass.

546
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:21,280
Speaker 1: So you were there living at the station, This accommodation

547
00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,400
Speaker 1: was at the station, the police stations at the front

548
00:26:23,440 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 1: of the house is out there. And then when your

549
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 1: marriage broke up, No, we need the married man.

550
00:26:29,440 --> 00:26:32,120
Speaker 2: He No, it's got to be that's a policy, right,

551
00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:34,520
Speaker 2: But I'm upset married, I'm going to go where you

552
00:26:34,560 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: going to send me or we don't care you have

553
00:26:36,200 --> 00:26:39,040
Speaker 2: a look around anyway. Cutlong story short, is a really

554
00:26:39,080 --> 00:26:43,320
Speaker 2: great guy and he's since passing a motorcycle accident. Was

555
00:26:43,359 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 2: Ray Smith and Ray Smith was a legend amongst the

556
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:50,320
Speaker 2: high patrolling those days, especially in the Southern Highlands area.

557
00:26:50,400 --> 00:26:54,680
Speaker 2: But he was also out our association rip at Golbin

558
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:56,800
Speaker 2: and he came down and sold me. He said, listen, mate,

559
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,680
Speaker 2: you don't have to go anywhere, he said, because something's

560
00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 2: just there's a couple of little things just slip into

561
00:27:01,680 --> 00:27:04,879
Speaker 2: the organization that the organization is pushing very hard along

562
00:27:04,920 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 2: with the state government, which is equally employment opportunity in

563
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 2: any discrimination. So he said, leave it to me. So

564
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:12,320
Speaker 2: he went and saw the bosses. You can't just flick

565
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,760
Speaker 2: this bloke. You know, he's just been through an ordeal

566
00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:16,680
Speaker 2: of a breakdown of a marriage. I said, he's you know,

567
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:20,040
Speaker 2: he's not traveling that well emotionally because of that reason,

568
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:21,520
Speaker 2: and you just want to flick him. And he said,

569
00:27:21,560 --> 00:27:23,800
Speaker 2: he's not going anywhere until he decides he wants to move,

570
00:27:23,840 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: because he's got your knacker. With any discrimination and the

571
00:27:27,640 --> 00:27:31,359
Speaker 2: employment opportunities that you're now throwing around like, you know,

572
00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:34,960
Speaker 2: getting yourself promoted over, I guess to throw that honey

573
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:38,359
Speaker 2: in there, yes, And so I was there for quite

574
00:27:38,359 --> 00:27:41,920
Speaker 2: some time until I decided I had to make the

575
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,600
Speaker 2: move and an opportunity came back to to go back

576
00:27:45,640 --> 00:27:49,120
Speaker 2: to my home area. Opportunity for a transfer to say's

577
00:27:49,160 --> 00:27:54,359
Speaker 2: not back where my parents were, and so I took

578
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 2: that opportunity and moved back to back to the Hunt

579
00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:57,440
Speaker 2: of Alley.

580
00:27:57,640 --> 00:28:01,439
Speaker 1: Okay, and you was around that time that you started

581
00:28:01,440 --> 00:28:03,280
Speaker 1: to have ambitions of becoming a detective.

582
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred percent. Yeah. Yeah. Look, general duties is

583
00:28:08,119 --> 00:28:10,640
Speaker 2: the backman and the forser, and I've always said that,

584
00:28:12,960 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 2: but it wasn't enough once I got Mattiez into the

585
00:28:16,680 --> 00:28:19,120
Speaker 2: organizer or the job, you know, and what it was about.

586
00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,360
Speaker 2: I just wanted a little bit more than just what

587
00:28:23,560 --> 00:28:25,520
Speaker 2: the general run of general duties was in those days.

588
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,719
Speaker 2: I just wanted that, just a little bit extra, and

589
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,480
Speaker 2: I thought playing clothes would give that to me. So

590
00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: I made application and got to start with the on

591
00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:33,679
Speaker 2: the gaming squad in Newcastle.

592
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:35,760
Speaker 1: Okay, what what did that involve?

593
00:28:36,240 --> 00:28:40,480
Speaker 2: It was maybe just doing all the LSP bookies, gaming,

594
00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,440
Speaker 2: the old illegal to up games and different things that

595
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:47,000
Speaker 2: are run after race meetings, things like that. Our area

596
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400
Speaker 2: was from Newcastle actually the Hawks River Bridge to Tweed,

597
00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:53,240
Speaker 2: so we did all that, you know, and you know,

598
00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:55,080
Speaker 2: we were sort of ostracized a little bit by some

599
00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:56,760
Speaker 2: of the other squads. You know, you just picked it

600
00:28:56,760 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: on the pole, this big book, this, that and the other,

601
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: and we will sort of look down a little bit

602
00:29:02,200 --> 00:29:04,480
Speaker 2: amongst some of the other squads, like the Artis Squad

603
00:29:04,560 --> 00:29:07,560
Speaker 2: or the Breakers or the Opicide boys and stuff like that,

604
00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,040
Speaker 2: because my mates for this book. He's like, yes, but.

605
00:29:11,680 --> 00:29:12,760
Speaker 1: How dare you suggest that?

606
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,240
Speaker 2: I mean, but I mean to say most of that,

607
00:29:16,400 --> 00:29:20,640
Speaker 2: most of the informants in that sort of crime, we're

608
00:29:20,680 --> 00:29:25,600
Speaker 2: basically women with kids and no money because the husband

609
00:29:25,640 --> 00:29:28,120
Speaker 2: had come in with no pay back because he just

610
00:29:28,120 --> 00:29:29,760
Speaker 2: put it all on the horses, or he'd just been

611
00:29:29,880 --> 00:29:32,560
Speaker 2: a two and all of a sudden, they were all

612
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:36,000
Speaker 2: the informants, I'll fix this problem, yeah, you know, And

613
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:37,880
Speaker 2: they were ringing up all the time, and they sat

614
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:39,560
Speaker 2: there's a two up game on a Bathist. You know.

615
00:29:39,640 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 2: I remember going to Bathist one night, sneaking up and

616
00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:44,880
Speaker 2: running in and with just two of us, and there

617
00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:46,880
Speaker 2: was one hundred and twenty people in there after the

618
00:29:47,040 --> 00:29:51,000
Speaker 2: Bathist trots, and they were all into it. They had

619
00:29:51,040 --> 00:29:53,120
Speaker 2: party pies, had cater is there at the whole bottom.

620
00:29:53,640 --> 00:29:56,040
Speaker 1: You're going in covertly, or you just ran through.

621
00:29:55,920 --> 00:29:57,400
Speaker 2: The door maintenance. And all you've got to do is

622
00:29:57,400 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: grab the kit which is the money, the bag full

623
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,479
Speaker 2: of money and the two up coins.

624
00:30:01,880 --> 00:30:03,920
Speaker 1: That sounds like something out of the world West.

625
00:30:03,920 --> 00:30:06,280
Speaker 2: Anyway, we ran. We ran one hundred people through the

626
00:30:06,320 --> 00:30:07,440
Speaker 2: charge of a bathist at night.

627
00:30:08,000 --> 00:30:10,720
Speaker 1: Just seal the doors off. You're all under arrest, that's it.

628
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:12,640
Speaker 1: But there's only two of you.

629
00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:16,240
Speaker 2: That was another half a dozen outside, all right, okay,

630
00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:18,800
Speaker 2: but yeah, those sorts of things. So but it was

631
00:30:19,240 --> 00:30:20,880
Speaker 2: and that was another eye and they did just see

632
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,080
Speaker 2: some people what they do for entertainment. But there was

633
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:27,240
Speaker 2: some big money getting thrown around. And especially we did

634
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:32,120
Speaker 2: a lot of work with the Telstra guys for people

635
00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,320
Speaker 2: using home units to take big books.

636
00:30:35,840 --> 00:30:38,240
Speaker 1: That's when they had all the all the line set up,

637
00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:39,040
Speaker 1: all the lines.

638
00:30:38,840 --> 00:30:40,480
Speaker 2: Set up on the phones. And there was some like

639
00:30:40,640 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 2: huge amounts of money going through all of that, you know.

640
00:30:44,200 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 2: And and there was one little one, if you want

641
00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,040
Speaker 2: to hear it, there was another Baptist job where there

642
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: was a huge book working on the on the bedding. Yeah,

643
00:30:58,160 --> 00:31:01,200
Speaker 2: on the Saturday on the races. I'm talking probably money

644
00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 2: that would be up around the half mion dollars on

645
00:31:03,320 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 2: a Saturday going through these phone lines and it was

646
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:11,520
Speaker 2: to an old house just out of Baptist an old

647
00:31:11,600 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 2: old house, just faking blocks either side and faking blocks

648
00:31:15,120 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 2: at the back. Anyway, Well, the Telstra guys that were said, mate,

649
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 2: that's it, that's going on right in there. So we

650
00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 2: stuck up to the front door with a sledgehammer and

651
00:31:25,240 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 2: a warrant and I said open the door or we

652
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: will break it down because we hear the races on inside.

653
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:34,440
Speaker 2: The radio is blaring, so we smashed the door down

654
00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:36,040
Speaker 2: because no one with ends the door. When we got

655
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: in there there was an eighty two year old woman

656
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:39,880
Speaker 2: lying in the bath with the radio one and she

657
00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,120
Speaker 2: had four tab tickets.

658
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:46,520
Speaker 1: It just okay, that's a big arrest, Bob. It was huge,

659
00:31:46,560 --> 00:31:48,960
Speaker 1: the biggest arrests I've heard cat killers. It was.

660
00:31:49,360 --> 00:31:53,080
Speaker 2: It was massive. But it shows you that the corruption

661
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:55,040
Speaker 2: that was in Telstra at the time, because what they did,

662
00:31:55,120 --> 00:31:58,600
Speaker 2: they just diverted the lines into that house. And we

663
00:31:58,640 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 2: eventually got the book about two hours later, and it

664
00:32:01,680 --> 00:32:02,960
Speaker 2: was in It was all in the back of a

665
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:06,640
Speaker 2: small goods factory there, so they just dive ot the

666
00:32:06,640 --> 00:32:09,720
Speaker 2: fund of poor little old woman's house and the tilt

667
00:32:09,960 --> 00:32:11,479
Speaker 2: was with us, said, mate, that's the place it's all

668
00:32:11,520 --> 00:32:13,680
Speaker 2: happening in here, that's where the phone line goes in.

669
00:32:13,920 --> 00:32:17,640
Speaker 1: That we laugh about it, and you think, and you

670
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:22,200
Speaker 1: do think victimless crime. But yeah, as you said, it's

671
00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:25,640
Speaker 1: usually the ladies at home that can't feed their kids

672
00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:28,920
Speaker 1: because hubbies put the he's got a gaming on the horses.

673
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:31,440
Speaker 2: They call it a gambling addiction these days. Back in

674
00:32:31,480 --> 00:32:34,440
Speaker 2: those days, I just it was an addiction, but that

675
00:32:34,480 --> 00:32:36,960
Speaker 2: word wasn't used. You know. They were just hopeless.

676
00:32:37,120 --> 00:32:38,040
Speaker 1: Didn't see the damage.

677
00:32:38,080 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 2: They didn't see the damage that and we look, we

678
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: did a lot of travel, had a lot of fun.

679
00:32:42,640 --> 00:32:45,800
Speaker 2: And I said, my retirement function really about the only

680
00:32:45,800 --> 00:32:48,719
Speaker 2: thing the gaming squad did for me. It was low

681
00:32:48,760 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 2: on a golf handicap, a couple of shots. Well, but

682
00:32:53,560 --> 00:32:54,760
Speaker 2: it was a lot of fun. It was a lot

683
00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,200
Speaker 2: of fun, and we did do some good jobs. We'd

684
00:32:57,280 --> 00:32:58,800
Speaker 2: got some big books and those sorts of things. But

685
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: that was just we still look back and I talked

686
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 2: to guys sometimes, mate, do you remember that time of

687
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:06,880
Speaker 2: Baptist the poor old lady in the bath. The biggest

688
00:33:06,880 --> 00:33:11,800
Speaker 2: part of the job was getting the door fixed on Saturday.

689
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:14,920
Speaker 1: After you hit it with a sledgeh exactly. Yeah, not

690
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: an overkill, were Bob?

691
00:33:16,800 --> 00:33:17,280
Speaker 2: Just a touch?

692
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,600
Speaker 1: Okay? But look, these are some of the fun aspects

693
00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:24,040
Speaker 1: of policing. Like you've gone from telling funny stories and

694
00:33:24,080 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: getting your golf handicapped down because you're doing so much travel.

695
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:30,800
Speaker 1: You've had a gun stuck in your in your belly

696
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,240
Speaker 1: when you're attended a domestic situation, and you've been the

697
00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:36,880
Speaker 1: car accidents where you're there on your own and people

698
00:33:36,960 --> 00:33:39,960
Speaker 1: are dying and severely injured. You've got to take the

699
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:45,480
Speaker 1: good times of the bad times. So after feeling your

700
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,920
Speaker 1: way in the gaming embedding, where did you go to?

701
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:49,680
Speaker 2: I've got a bit of a start on a list

702
00:33:49,720 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 2: At Maitland. Frank Trace was a detective, so.

703
00:33:52,720 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: We just to explain what a list is. That's the

704
00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:57,520
Speaker 1: start of your detective training you had to get and

705
00:33:57,560 --> 00:33:59,120
Speaker 1: they just called the position aid.

706
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,800
Speaker 2: List and you'd share the A list position around with

707
00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:04,880
Speaker 2: a number of other uniform constables who wanted to who

708
00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:09,400
Speaker 2: were interested. And also it was it was an opportunity

709
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:12,840
Speaker 2: for the detectives to see whether you were suited as

710
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 2: much as you thought you might have been suited to.

711
00:34:14,760 --> 00:34:17,080
Speaker 1: That style of policing.

712
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 2: Policing, you know. So that's how the A list works.

713
00:34:19,920 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to start on the A list at Maitland,

714
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:25,440
Speaker 2: and then an opportunity came. They were just up in

715
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: the strength that Ceses Knock detected his office to to

716
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,120
Speaker 2: another position, adding a position to it, a detective sergeant

717
00:34:33,360 --> 00:34:36,239
Speaker 2: and three constables. So that was offered to me, which

718
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,160
Speaker 2: I took. And then from there it was from Sessknock

719
00:34:38,200 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: that I I worked with Alex Pollock, who was a

720
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 2: fantastic mentor to me and and a great friend and

721
00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 2: still and still is today. We're still yeah, great guy. Anyway,

722
00:34:49,640 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: we got to start there and that's Wherebert designated, and

723
00:34:53,760 --> 00:34:54,959
Speaker 2: that the detective course.

724
00:34:55,040 --> 00:34:58,719
Speaker 1: Detective course came came there. And after when was it

725
00:34:58,800 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 1: that we finished the tech dis course? I think May

726
00:35:01,760 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 1: nine ninety, I think it was.

727
00:35:03,120 --> 00:35:04,640
Speaker 2: I think it was June a bit ran, a bit

728
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:06,960
Speaker 2: ju because we're starting to get a bit cold in anyway, Yeah,

729
00:35:07,000 --> 00:35:07,880
Speaker 2: I remember.

730
00:35:08,440 --> 00:35:10,719
Speaker 1: We finished on the Friday. I remember I was at

731
00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:14,359
Speaker 1: that Sunday night, first job as a detective, hadn't even

732
00:35:14,400 --> 00:35:16,160
Speaker 1: had the weekend off, and I was called out to

733
00:35:16,680 --> 00:35:20,520
Speaker 1: the Brooklyn train disaster where six people two trains collided

734
00:35:20,560 --> 00:35:22,440
Speaker 1: and on a Sunday night and called out to that

735
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:24,440
Speaker 1: and that was my work as a detective for the

736
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:26,920
Speaker 1: next six months. I was working on that inquiry. You

737
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: just didn't know what was going to happen. Where did

738
00:35:29,680 --> 00:35:32,600
Speaker 1: your life go after we were designated and walked out.

739
00:35:32,800 --> 00:35:35,120
Speaker 2: Well, I stayed at Cesnoch in a couple of years,

740
00:35:35,160 --> 00:35:38,960
Speaker 2: and we did. We had a bit of a biking

741
00:35:39,000 --> 00:35:40,640
Speaker 2: problem there for a few years. It was a bit

742
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: of a bit of doing and fronying with the with

743
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 2: the Bandudos and the common Ciro's moving into that Hunter

744
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 2: Valley area. So we did a lot of work on that.

745
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:55,960
Speaker 2: We pride of just getting designated. We had the Woodcock murder.

746
00:35:56,080 --> 00:35:58,000
Speaker 2: He was murdered in his own home and had his

747
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: head or mast severed by a machete attack. And which

748
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:08,320
Speaker 2: which which was a long protracting inquiry.

749
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:09,440
Speaker 1: What was the go there?

750
00:36:09,920 --> 00:36:13,640
Speaker 2: Well, Woodcock had come home from the it was an

751
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:16,640
Speaker 2: alcoholic came home from the club one night of the

752
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:18,680
Speaker 2: pub one night and he'd won a fish pack at

753
00:36:18,719 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 2: the pub raffles and cooked those fish up. And when

754
00:36:25,440 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 2: we got to the mercery the next day, the fish

755
00:36:27,160 --> 00:36:28,880
Speaker 2: the fish had been cooked. It was left in the

756
00:36:28,920 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 2: pans on the stave and the stave was turned off. Sorry.

757
00:36:32,560 --> 00:36:35,560
Speaker 2: Georgie Woodcock was found in the is a local from

758
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 2: my is in my hometown at Weston and he was

759
00:36:38,360 --> 00:36:41,160
Speaker 2: found the front bedroom with terrific injuries and almost severed

760
00:36:41,239 --> 00:36:46,000
Speaker 2: head in relation to the attack on him. And a

761
00:36:46,040 --> 00:36:47,799
Speaker 2: lot of a lot of work went into that case,

762
00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:49,719
Speaker 2: and it went on and dragged on, and we always

763
00:36:49,760 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 2: had a suspect in our sites. It was really a

764
00:36:52,520 --> 00:36:54,600
Speaker 2: lot of listening devices we used. We had a guy

765
00:36:54,600 --> 00:36:56,400
Speaker 2: in our sites, but we just couldn't get out of

766
00:36:56,400 --> 00:36:59,360
Speaker 2: the line with listening devices. He's interviewed a couple of

767
00:36:59,360 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: times and probably about it was a bit over to it.

768
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:04,960
Speaker 2: And that's where I was introduced to Dennis Miles o'tool.

769
00:37:08,440 --> 00:37:12,440
Speaker 1: Sorry, sorry, not a n in Jack Well. It is

770
00:37:12,440 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: a bit of a Dennis otol Miles miles O two.

771
00:37:15,840 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 1: He's been on the podcast. He was in the first season.

772
00:37:18,600 --> 00:37:22,880
Speaker 1: I absolutely love the man. I actually work some the

773
00:37:23,000 --> 00:37:25,399
Speaker 1: murders up round sasnok And I don't know what you're

774
00:37:25,400 --> 00:37:28,239
Speaker 1: going to say about Dennis Miles o'tool, but I tell

775
00:37:28,280 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 1: you everywhere we went so many people, Oh do you

776
00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 1: know Dennis? He left an awesome reputation up in around

777
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:36,120
Speaker 1: your way.

778
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:40,080
Speaker 2: We became very good friends and part of this investigation

779
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:43,960
Speaker 2: he ended up being christened within the Hunted Valley's toga

780
00:37:44,000 --> 00:37:51,800
Speaker 2: Otol because of an after investigative day soiree under the vineyards,

781
00:37:51,800 --> 00:37:54,040
Speaker 2: you might say, which ended up.

782
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure he won so going which ended up.

783
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:02,320
Speaker 2: Which ended up wedding reception somewhere with us all wearing

784
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:05,680
Speaker 2: tigers and ended up in the swimming pool. But anyway,

785
00:38:06,120 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 2: he was a fantastic guy. And that was when I

786
00:38:08,800 --> 00:38:11,000
Speaker 2: was first introduced to the I don't know if you

787
00:38:11,000 --> 00:38:13,600
Speaker 2: remember the old Merz, the old Merz program.

788
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:14,600
Speaker 1: No, what was that one?

789
00:38:14,640 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 2: The Merz program was invented by two young cops. It

790
00:38:17,760 --> 00:38:22,279
Speaker 2: was as computers were coming into the organization. Because when

791
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:23,759
Speaker 2: I first joined it like there was a computer that

792
00:38:23,880 --> 00:38:26,440
Speaker 2: had been installed on the desk at least would and

793
00:38:26,440 --> 00:38:29,200
Speaker 2: no one went near it. Well you never were near

794
00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:30,319
Speaker 2: it now he's no one knew what to do with it.

795
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 2: It was just put there. And then when I went

796
00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:34,920
Speaker 2: to gold and the same thing and no one went

797
00:38:34,960 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 2: near it until you got some training on it. So

798
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:39,239
Speaker 2: everything was done by tele x or the phone in

799
00:38:39,280 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: those days. But the MERZ was invented m w I

800
00:38:43,520 --> 00:38:46,360
Speaker 2: r S and it was the long name was Murder

801
00:38:46,480 --> 00:38:50,680
Speaker 2: Investigating Indexing System. Yes, they break it in into category,

802
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:53,520
Speaker 2: so too young and this is more a way to

803
00:38:53,520 --> 00:38:55,400
Speaker 2: show out the cops operated in those days and probably

804
00:38:55,400 --> 00:38:58,359
Speaker 2: still do today. Was it was quite a quite a

805
00:38:58,719 --> 00:39:01,640
Speaker 2: good system, but it was still seven categories within it.

806
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:03,600
Speaker 2: So it was my job in that murder investigation to

807
00:39:03,680 --> 00:39:05,879
Speaker 2: run the MERVEE system. And I just got a down

808
00:39:05,920 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: pat when the two young cops had invented it were

809
00:39:08,600 --> 00:39:11,239
Speaker 2: still waiting to get paid by the organization because they

810
00:39:11,239 --> 00:39:14,319
Speaker 2: had copyright on it. An organization told them to where

811
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: to go, and they simple things, go and find your

812
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:20,359
Speaker 2: own Mourder Investigation Indexing system by someone else, because you're

813
00:39:20,360 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: not using OURSE. So I was halfway through that.

814
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,000
Speaker 1: So we had because that TIMS must have been before TIMS.

815
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,080
Speaker 1: TIMS came after you, Yeah, because we're on the card system.

816
00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: And so that got a short run and then.

817
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,560
Speaker 2: Well there was that there was that little period between

818
00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:37,080
Speaker 2: MERS and TIMS until someone invented TIMS. But the MURS

819
00:39:37,080 --> 00:39:39,279
Speaker 2: guy said that's the ours, mate, you can't.

820
00:39:39,080 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 1: Use it, okay.

821
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:43,840
Speaker 2: So that was my on that particular murder and it

822
00:39:43,920 --> 00:39:45,080
Speaker 2: was only that what.

823
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:46,200
Speaker 1: Was for the murder?

824
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:47,840
Speaker 2: Well, we still really don't know.

825
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 1: Okay, you found you found your way out around Burke now.

826
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,480
Speaker 2: Hal found my way to Marie after did a couple

827
00:39:55,520 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 2: of jobs out there and I thought, oh, you know

828
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 2: where I was going to be. Cesnock was part of

829
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,319
Speaker 2: the Old North region. It was part of that Newcastle

830
00:40:04,640 --> 00:40:07,960
Speaker 2: area and there was a certain attachment to the New

831
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:12,360
Speaker 2: South Wales Police which was Newcastle, Newcastle, Sydney, Woollongong, and

832
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:14,920
Speaker 2: there was I didn't see a lot of advancement for

833
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: myself promotional wise around that Hunter Valley, Maitland, Sesmock, Newcastle area.

834
00:40:20,800 --> 00:40:22,879
Speaker 2: It was very competitive like it would be in the city,

835
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 2: but there's more opportunity here. There's less opportunity and more

836
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:29,320
Speaker 2: staff in that area. So I don't know if it

837
00:40:29,440 --> 00:40:33,600
Speaker 2: was a brain snaper or a crazy idea or whatever,

838
00:40:33,640 --> 00:40:37,520
Speaker 2: but an opportunity came up. They're looking for a detective

839
00:40:37,560 --> 00:40:40,799
Speaker 2: at Marie where they only had a detective sergeant, but

840
00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 2: all the guys in the officer all PC's and were

841
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:47,920
Speaker 2: well off being designated. So I had an offer to

842
00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 2: go out there as a designated officer that I would

843
00:40:50,760 --> 00:40:53,640
Speaker 2: get all the relieving to sort of boost my career

844
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:58,960
Speaker 2: to experience in supervisory level. So I had a chat

845
00:40:59,280 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 2: to them wife and said she was a teacher. She said,

846
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 2: let's go. So we went went to Maury, which, which

847
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: I've always said to people, Maury, for all the for

848
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,000
Speaker 2: all the bad publicity, for the bad name that it has,

849
00:41:17,200 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: was probably the best country station I ever worked at

850
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:25,640
Speaker 2: because everybody that went there was tight. It was a

851
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:26,840
Speaker 2: very tight station.

852
00:41:27,200 --> 00:41:30,480
Speaker 1: They had to support each other, that was and they

853
00:41:30,480 --> 00:41:31,919
Speaker 1: were very loyal and very tight.

854
00:41:32,560 --> 00:41:35,120
Speaker 2: Had the odd ones that you know, didn't fit in,

855
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 2: had a high turnover rate. But people went there they

856
00:41:38,600 --> 00:41:41,000
Speaker 2: knew they had three years. There was a goal for

857
00:41:41,040 --> 00:41:42,480
Speaker 2: them at the end of the three years was to

858
00:41:42,520 --> 00:41:44,200
Speaker 2: move on to it. It was sort of one of

859
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:48,839
Speaker 2: those stations where guys from the North Coast and mid

860
00:41:48,920 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: North Coast went down and joined the cops eventually wanted

861
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,360
Speaker 2: to get back to where they were born and bred.

862
00:41:56,239 --> 00:41:58,560
Speaker 2: The only the way. Most ways, they were told, mate,

863
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:00,680
Speaker 2: go to Maury Burke, Well can you?

864
00:42:00,880 --> 00:42:05,359
Speaker 1: And they were considered like punishment not punishment stations, but

865
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,439
Speaker 1: you if you spent your three years out there, because

866
00:42:08,440 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 1: they are hard positions to feel that's you then had

867
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 1: a choice to go pick.

868
00:42:12,640 --> 00:42:15,279
Speaker 2: You're giving a preference, You're you're giving, You're getting your

869
00:42:15,280 --> 00:42:17,600
Speaker 2: preference basically, and it works for most for you know,

870
00:42:17,680 --> 00:42:19,120
Speaker 2: ninety percent of time, it worked that way.

871
00:42:19,200 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, So you enjoyed your time out there.

872
00:42:21,760 --> 00:42:22,720
Speaker 2: It was, it was tremendous.

873
00:42:22,800 --> 00:42:25,640
Speaker 1: Did a lot of what sort of crime were you investigating?

874
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,800
Speaker 2: Just generals? C I, if it was if there was

875
00:42:28,840 --> 00:42:34,120
Speaker 2: a if there was a murder, sexual assault, gbh's, stealings,

876
00:42:34,480 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 2: just just general So I okay, from starting to finish.

877
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,799
Speaker 1: And upskilling your yourself there, So how do you find

878
00:42:41,800 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: your way back to cessnock?

879
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:46,280
Speaker 2: No, I went to I got I did get promoted

880
00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:46,600
Speaker 2: as a.

881
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,719
Speaker 1: Result of that, you're sold out, decided to So I went.

882
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,439
Speaker 2: I went to burke is It a technic sergeant.

883
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 1: And I thought through the application process and I.

884
00:42:55,680 --> 00:42:57,840
Speaker 2: Went through the interviews, the whole day's the systems that

885
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,799
Speaker 2: was then. That was about nineteen ninety three, and was

886
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 2: successful in getting a spot there. Noah, pearls, what so

887
00:43:07,239 --> 00:43:11,080
Speaker 2: many of pearls, But I would imagine anyway. So but

888
00:43:11,120 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: when I first got there, I sort of fell into

889
00:43:16,040 --> 00:43:20,360
Speaker 2: a situation where not long after I went there, the

890
00:43:20,400 --> 00:43:23,160
Speaker 2: young Sandra who the nurse was murdered at Walgut.

891
00:43:23,040 --> 00:43:25,880
Speaker 1: And Lynch Glenn Richson, I think.

892
00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 2: A couple of well, I think it was Ali Polls

893
00:43:27,480 --> 00:43:29,280
Speaker 2: did the brief because Alec then.

894
00:43:29,200 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 1: Going the on call response I'm talking about, Yeah, that's

895
00:43:32,640 --> 00:43:33,520
Speaker 1: a horrible murder.

896
00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:38,320
Speaker 2: Alick had just gone to which was our district station

897
00:43:38,560 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: as the detective senior sergeant there and sort of only

898
00:43:41,760 --> 00:43:43,840
Speaker 2: in the place where not long after Sandra was murdered

899
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:45,320
Speaker 2: and the Fernando.

900
00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:47,600
Speaker 1: Cousins which were.

901
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,480
Speaker 2: Charged by Alec and convicted, all of the all of

902
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:56,360
Speaker 2: the technie staff from Walgart left on transfer out, some

903
00:43:56,440 --> 00:44:00,080
Speaker 2: went off sick. So virtually Walgert was without detectives for

904
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 2: quite some time, only twelve months before they got there.

905
00:44:03,320 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 2: And they had a particular little place in there.

906
00:44:07,160 --> 00:44:09,440
Speaker 1: Because of the nature of that crime, and I think.

907
00:44:09,320 --> 00:44:11,320
Speaker 2: So yes, yeah, and there was other roots, some with

908
00:44:11,440 --> 00:44:13,359
Speaker 2: you for transfer anyway, and no one they couldn't get

909
00:44:13,360 --> 00:44:16,680
Speaker 2: anywhere to go there, So they had a place at

910
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:21,480
Speaker 2: at called Lightning Ridge, a lot of people know, which

911
00:44:21,560 --> 00:44:24,040
Speaker 2: was full of which is just full of desperadoes and people.

912
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,160
Speaker 2: It's a place where people go to be forgotten about,

913
00:44:27,239 --> 00:44:29,879
Speaker 2: not be found when they wanted. So there's a lot

914
00:44:29,880 --> 00:44:31,880
Speaker 2: of crime there and a lot of serious crimes. So

915
00:44:34,160 --> 00:44:37,000
Speaker 2: anytime there was something that requite a bit of an investigation,

916
00:44:37,560 --> 00:44:39,840
Speaker 2: I was sent across from Burke because it was a

917
00:44:39,920 --> 00:44:42,799
Speaker 2: couple hunter k drive for me and a fellow by

918
00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:44,680
Speaker 2: the name of Mine who I've become very good friends

919
00:44:44,680 --> 00:44:47,120
Speaker 2: with and one of my best friends today. Doug Gott

920
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:51,120
Speaker 2: was a detective sergeant at Dubbo and we would normally

921
00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:52,560
Speaker 2: go and do those jobs at like.

922
00:44:53,280 --> 00:44:55,640
Speaker 1: I did some fair bit of workout at Lightning Ridge

923
00:44:55,640 --> 00:44:57,360
Speaker 1: and I remember when I first pulled up there, I

924
00:44:57,400 --> 00:44:59,920
Speaker 1: was confused because the cops were in Khaki and the

925
00:45:00,080 --> 00:45:02,920
Speaker 1: forms that was at the start, and then looking for

926
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:05,399
Speaker 1: a place to stay or have a drink, and.

927
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,000
Speaker 2: Will and Garret Motel was generally the place.

928
00:45:08,040 --> 00:45:10,680
Speaker 1: Well, whoever was in the station said you could go

929
00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,480
Speaker 1: to that pub there, but I reckon you'll be in

930
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:14,879
Speaker 1: a fight within five minutes of walking in the door.

931
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:16,680
Speaker 1: I'd suggest you go to the bowling club or the

932
00:45:16,680 --> 00:45:17,560
Speaker 1: tennis club or whatever.

933
00:45:17,880 --> 00:45:21,440
Speaker 2: The pub's been burnt down there right, it is dead.

934
00:45:21,360 --> 00:45:23,160
Speaker 1: Set the wild West out there. Interesting town.

935
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,400
Speaker 2: I loved working up it was very interesting and then

936
00:45:25,400 --> 00:45:28,359
Speaker 2: Dougie and I sawt we did. We did some good

937
00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 2: jobs there, nothing that note worthy to the world, but

938
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:34,960
Speaker 2: we did a lot of investigations there, and we had

939
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,560
Speaker 2: a lot of fun as well. So we became quite

940
00:45:37,640 --> 00:45:40,000
Speaker 2: good friends, and we've remained good friends today.

941
00:45:40,640 --> 00:45:42,799
Speaker 1: Just getting back to the murder of the nurse, what

942
00:45:42,880 --> 00:45:46,359
Speaker 1: do you think rock so many police because she.

943
00:45:46,400 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 2: Was the partner of one of the police officers there.

944
00:45:48,520 --> 00:45:53,799
Speaker 2: Young guys and in those small country towns, and I'll

945
00:45:53,840 --> 00:45:57,360
Speaker 2: go to Burke and Walgut, those two places, your social

946
00:45:57,880 --> 00:46:06,480
Speaker 2: activities generally moved around amongst the police, nurses, the fire is,

947
00:46:06,560 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: the ambos, and the teachers because most a lot of

948
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:13,920
Speaker 2: guys who went there as cops their wives. A lot

949
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:16,319
Speaker 2: of their wives were teachers or nurses because they're always

950
00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,040
Speaker 2: screaming out for nurses. And in all those places, nurses,

951
00:46:20,200 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: school teachers, cops andbos faras, so they're all sort of

952
00:46:26,000 --> 00:46:28,160
Speaker 2: in the linked And that's where a lot of your

953
00:46:28,239 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: social activities took place amongst those, you know, functions and

954
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 2: barbecues and fundraisers that all involved those particular people, you know,

955
00:46:39,080 --> 00:46:41,239
Speaker 2: especially in those small countries I'm talking about. While geting

956
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: those works there's I think three and a half thousand

957
00:46:43,440 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 2: people in those towns, you know, And.

958
00:46:45,440 --> 00:46:48,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see then how her murder and it

959
00:46:48,239 --> 00:46:50,800
Speaker 1: was such a such a brutal crime would have impacted

960
00:46:50,800 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 1: on people.

961
00:46:52,000 --> 00:46:54,120
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, it was. It had a huge impact, Yeah,

962
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,439
Speaker 2: as it does in most of those small towns. You know.

963
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: The two that were convicted, didn't one of them murder

964
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:00,920
Speaker 1: the other in prison?

965
00:47:01,120 --> 00:47:01,359
Speaker 2: Yes?

966
00:47:01,400 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: Eventually, Yeah, yeah, just a horrific story all around. Hey, guys,

967
00:47:08,520 --> 00:47:10,920
Speaker 1: have you ever wondered what goes on behind the headlines

968
00:47:10,960 --> 00:47:13,120
Speaker 1: of a gang war or shooting? Then you need to

969
00:47:13,120 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 1: listen to crim City. Join crime reporters Mark Murray and

970
00:47:16,520 --> 00:47:20,120
Speaker 1: Josh Hamrahan as they uncover the details of crimes unfolding

971
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:22,799
Speaker 1: on Sydney streets and share the stories that don't make

972
00:47:22,840 --> 00:47:25,919
Speaker 1: the papers. The latest season of crim City is out now.

973
00:47:26,200 --> 00:47:28,880
Speaker 1: Listen early and ad free on Crime x plus on

974
00:47:28,960 --> 00:47:34,560
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts Today. Okay, how did we get you back

975
00:47:34,600 --> 00:47:36,440
Speaker 1: to the Hunter Valley area?

976
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:44,399
Speaker 2: My tenure was nearing at Burke and I know there

977
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 2: was no guarantee that I would be on a three

978
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: year tenure, but most people ain't do three years here

979
00:47:48,880 --> 00:47:52,360
Speaker 2: and I thought it was and after the seven years

980
00:47:52,520 --> 00:47:56,080
Speaker 2: combined between Maury and Burke. I just had enough of

981
00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:59,759
Speaker 2: that isolated Yeah, you've got an extra week's holiday, you

982
00:47:59,840 --> 00:48:03,200
Speaker 2: got a few other little bits and perks with it.

983
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:06,360
Speaker 2: Not nothing heard in those days, not like there is today.

984
00:48:06,400 --> 00:48:11,400
Speaker 2: It's completely different. And the kids had two young daughters

985
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,400
Speaker 2: who were coming to school age when it had already

986
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:16,800
Speaker 2: started kind again, and I thought, well this they deserve

987
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:21,359
Speaker 2: more than you know. They need a little bit more

988
00:48:21,560 --> 00:48:24,759
Speaker 2: in their life than just Burke, which was great, but

989
00:48:25,040 --> 00:48:27,120
Speaker 2: when they were toddlers and young kids, but they were

990
00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:28,680
Speaker 2: of the age where they needed a little bit more

991
00:48:28,680 --> 00:48:34,759
Speaker 2: stimulation socially and probably academically as well. So I sort

992
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:37,200
Speaker 2: of put a few feelers out here. I am a

993
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:39,759
Speaker 2: Newcastle and Maitland would have liked I've gone back to

994
00:48:39,760 --> 00:48:42,120
Speaker 2: that area. My wife at the time was a few

995
00:48:42,200 --> 00:48:44,759
Speaker 2: some Newcastle areas, so I'd like to go back there.

996
00:48:44,880 --> 00:48:46,640
Speaker 2: And of course I was told them you might be

997
00:48:46,680 --> 00:48:50,000
Speaker 2: coming back here as an ad tective sergeant. I said, okay,

998
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,279
Speaker 2: well what about it as a sageant. Well, really, mate,

999
00:48:52,400 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 2: you can pick anywhere you like, between Paul Malcrrey and

1000
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,239
Speaker 2: Tweeteds and more. You can go there. Whatever would have

1001
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:03,000
Speaker 2: a position you want. I don't want to go here,

1002
00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,040
Speaker 2: and so that's where I'd like to go. So I

1003
00:49:06,080 --> 00:49:08,400
Speaker 2: think I've put enough hard yards in seven years in

1004
00:49:08,440 --> 00:49:11,440
Speaker 2: the Western area, in far western area. So you always

1005
00:49:11,480 --> 00:49:13,480
Speaker 2: like to think they do the right thing, but do

1006
00:49:13,520 --> 00:49:15,800
Speaker 2: a little, do a little, do you a little favor.

1007
00:49:16,560 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: But anyway, it wasn't It wasn't to be, and I

1008
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:20,400
Speaker 2: was just latly told me you won't be coming here anyway.

1009
00:49:20,440 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 2: A vacant position came up for the detect your siget Singleton,

1010
00:49:24,080 --> 00:49:26,640
Speaker 2: and I just applied for it. And I spoke to

1011
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,200
Speaker 2: the patrol commander there and said, listen, I'm going to

1012
00:49:29,320 --> 00:49:30,600
Speaker 2: throw my hat in the ring for that as a

1013
00:49:30,640 --> 00:49:33,239
Speaker 2: sideways move. Now I've got to go through the I've

1014
00:49:33,280 --> 00:49:36,560
Speaker 2: got to go through the system again, you know, the

1015
00:49:36,560 --> 00:49:37,920
Speaker 2: interview said, but I'm going to have a crack at it.

1016
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:40,399
Speaker 2: You saw that by the mate is getting that job,

1017
00:49:40,800 --> 00:49:43,640
Speaker 2: he's been here mark, Is that right? So anyway, I

1018
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,640
Speaker 2: put an application in and won the position sideways and

1019
00:49:46,680 --> 00:49:47,520
Speaker 2: went back to Singleton.

1020
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:51,840
Speaker 1: Right, Okay, Well, you've got to seven years out in

1021
00:49:51,880 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: the West and then then coming back to the area

1022
00:49:54,200 --> 00:49:57,560
Speaker 1: you wanted. You probably probably deserved it. I want to

1023
00:49:57,600 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: start taking us into the crime that again, and I'll

1024
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,000
Speaker 1: keep saying that it's one of the most my carb

1025
00:50:03,160 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 1: and brutal crimes that I've heard about in all my

1026
00:50:06,040 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 1: time in homicide, and you hear some shit there. I

1027
00:50:09,520 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 1: want you to take our listeners right through what happened

1028
00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:15,959
Speaker 1: on that day because I want to understand the investigation

1029
00:50:16,320 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: right from the start. So was it a normal day

1030
00:50:18,360 --> 00:50:19,160
Speaker 1: when you got a call?

1031
00:50:19,400 --> 00:50:21,399
Speaker 2: It was just a normal day. I'd started working single

1032
00:50:21,680 --> 00:50:25,799
Speaker 2: actually at that stage staffing issues again, they had no

1033
00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:28,800
Speaker 2: crime manager at Musclebrook, which was the head station, and

1034
00:50:28,840 --> 00:50:32,120
Speaker 2: we'd gone to Lacks by this time, was in two thousand.

1035
00:50:32,200 --> 00:50:36,360
Speaker 2: Are commands locally in commands after what I said was

1036
00:50:36,400 --> 00:50:40,319
Speaker 2: the failed government experiment with the Commission at the time

1037
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:45,120
Speaker 2: that took us from where we were.

1038
00:50:44,280 --> 00:50:47,319
Speaker 1: Bringing the gentleman over from the UK, yes, and.

1039
00:50:47,640 --> 00:50:50,279
Speaker 2: Into structure in the restructure in the structure anyway, we'd

1040
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,600
Speaker 2: already moved. We'd moved to that in ninety seven and

1041
00:50:52,600 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 2: we're now in two thousand and so there was no

1042
00:50:55,960 --> 00:50:59,080
Speaker 2: detect your sergeant at Musclebrook. There was no prime manager

1043
00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:01,640
Speaker 2: at Musclebrook at the time, so I was filling that role.

1044
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:06,120
Speaker 2: Plus I was a senior detective in that command and

1045
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:09,000
Speaker 2: on that particular day he was in Musclebrooks area, not

1046
00:51:09,040 --> 00:51:14,359
Speaker 2: Singleton's that that murder took place at Aberdeen and the

1047
00:51:14,400 --> 00:51:16,960
Speaker 2: young guy who was there was just just a PC

1048
00:51:17,400 --> 00:51:19,480
Speaker 2: who was working for the day and he said, made

1049
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: this is too much of murder handle. He rang me out.

1050
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:22,799
Speaker 2: I said, well, what's the problem, he said, mate, you'll

1051
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:25,239
Speaker 2: find out when you're giddy. He said just get here,

1052
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 2: because he said I need you away. So I was

1053
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:33,759
Speaker 2: with my side of Mick Prenis, fantastic guy, Mick, and

1054
00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:35,680
Speaker 2: so we jumped and think he said it's at Aberdeen.

1055
00:51:35,800 --> 00:51:38,320
Speaker 2: So we jumped in the car and roughed up to Aberdeen.

1056
00:51:38,360 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: And how far away was that.

1057
00:51:40,000 --> 00:51:44,600
Speaker 2: Aberdeen's Probably it was probably a thirty minute drive with

1058
00:51:45,320 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: the siren going, you know, and the magnetic light on

1059
00:51:48,520 --> 00:51:51,400
Speaker 2: the roof. So we got there and I spoke to

1060
00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,640
Speaker 2: Graham Furlonger and Scotty James out the back and there

1061
00:51:55,680 --> 00:51:58,000
Speaker 2: was an ambulance and they were just loading someone into

1062
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 2: it with Judy Simpson was the police lady who was

1063
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 2: going to go as a custody person because this person

1064
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 2: being laded into the that I was lad to find

1065
00:52:09,440 --> 00:52:13,680
Speaker 2: out was Catherine Knight was the suspect at a stage and.

1066
00:52:14,560 --> 00:52:17,000
Speaker 1: Just whine you're back there for a bit. What happened

1067
00:52:17,040 --> 00:52:18,839
Speaker 1: to the first police when they turned up at the scene.

1068
00:52:19,080 --> 00:52:20,720
Speaker 1: How did people get notified about?

1069
00:52:21,040 --> 00:52:23,840
Speaker 2: Okay? John Price was a hard work and hard drinking

1070
00:52:24,360 --> 00:52:27,560
Speaker 2: coal miner work for a coal company in Aberdeen, and

1071
00:52:28,719 --> 00:52:31,640
Speaker 2: irrespective of what his drinking habits were, it wouldn't matter.

1072
00:52:32,760 --> 00:52:34,800
Speaker 2: He would be the first work every day. But I

1073
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:36,719
Speaker 2: was leaving a couple of weeks leading and he formed

1074
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:40,920
Speaker 2: a relationship with with Catherine Knight, and she had her

1075
00:52:40,960 --> 00:52:45,080
Speaker 2: own home in Aberdeen down the main highway. John Price

1076
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: had his own home a few streets away, and they

1077
00:52:47,520 --> 00:52:50,560
Speaker 2: would sort of She would spend some nights of the

1078
00:52:50,600 --> 00:52:52,920
Speaker 2: week at his home, some nights at home in her

1079
00:52:52,960 --> 00:52:55,720
Speaker 2: own am so they was sort of partially I guess,

1080
00:52:55,760 --> 00:53:00,000
Speaker 2: partially colabitating together. That stage things were a bit rock

1081
00:53:00,120 --> 00:53:03,480
Speaker 2: He was a happy, gay, lucky sort of guy, and

1082
00:53:03,560 --> 00:53:07,920
Speaker 2: I think she was starting to get a little bit

1083
00:53:08,360 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 2: shitty with his with his behavior towards wanted to go

1084
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:16,080
Speaker 2: to the pub be out. I think she wanted a

1085
00:53:16,120 --> 00:53:21,920
Speaker 2: more homely style relationship. From memory, but things had started

1086
00:53:21,920 --> 00:53:26,719
Speaker 2: to see our works before. And John Price was the

1087
00:53:26,719 --> 00:53:29,200
Speaker 2: type of guy who confided in his workmates, and he said,

1088
00:53:29,320 --> 00:53:31,880
Speaker 2: a couple of weeks before, he said, listen, I was

1089
00:53:32,040 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 2: there the other night and I went to better man,

1090
00:53:35,400 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: she wasn't here, and she anyway, she turned up with

1091
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,399
Speaker 2: herd a noise, and I sat up in bed, he said,

1092
00:53:39,480 --> 00:53:41,799
Speaker 2: and I'm sure I saw her standing at the foot

1093
00:53:41,840 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 2: of the bed with the hands behind her back, and

1094
00:53:44,000 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 2: there was a mirror on a dresser and behind her,

1095
00:53:46,480 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: and he said, I'm sure she had her knives in

1096
00:53:47,920 --> 00:53:50,239
Speaker 2: her hand. And he said, but by the time I

1097
00:53:50,280 --> 00:53:52,720
Speaker 2: fully wake up, she was there but had mad knives

1098
00:53:52,719 --> 00:53:55,760
Speaker 2: and hadst watched what she was doing. Anyway, she stayed

1099
00:53:55,760 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 2: the night, and then he started to worry because of

1100
00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:02,080
Speaker 2: the way she was sort of carrying on with him

1101
00:54:02,120 --> 00:54:05,040
Speaker 2: and their attitude towards him. So he said, made if

1102
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:07,799
Speaker 2: I didn't turn up for work one day, ringing the

1103
00:54:07,840 --> 00:54:12,400
Speaker 2: cops because because something's happened to me. Anyway, On the

1104
00:54:12,400 --> 00:54:14,520
Speaker 2: first of March two thousand, he didn't turn up for work,

1105
00:54:15,040 --> 00:54:17,799
Speaker 2: and the guys went back to the week before when

1106
00:54:17,800 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: he said, mate, I think she's going to do something

1107
00:54:20,160 --> 00:54:24,319
Speaker 2: to me. So they raced up to his house and

1108
00:54:24,320 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 2: they got to the front door and on the front

1109
00:54:25,840 --> 00:54:29,439
Speaker 2: door the architrave, there was a splatter of blood. Front

1110
00:54:29,480 --> 00:54:32,520
Speaker 2: door was locked, so they just rang the cops straight away.

1111
00:54:32,840 --> 00:54:35,800
Speaker 2: His work boots were beside the front door and seeing

1112
00:54:35,800 --> 00:54:38,800
Speaker 2: the blood and the outthought shot something's happened. Was parked

1113
00:54:38,800 --> 00:54:41,480
Speaker 2: in the driveway. He was obviously there, but they couldn't

1114
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,279
Speaker 2: raise him. The air conditioning was going on in the

1115
00:54:44,000 --> 00:54:46,400
Speaker 2: bedroom part of the house, so they rang the cops,

1116
00:54:46,440 --> 00:54:49,000
Speaker 2: and the cops turned up, and of course the back

1117
00:54:49,040 --> 00:54:51,480
Speaker 2: door was unlocked, so they went in through the back

1118
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:54,959
Speaker 2: door and were confronted bercherly into the kitchen at the

1119
00:54:55,040 --> 00:54:57,919
Speaker 2: back door, went into a small laundry area, then into

1120
00:54:57,960 --> 00:55:03,600
Speaker 2: a kitchen dining area, the doorway into the into the

1121
00:55:03,680 --> 00:55:07,560
Speaker 2: lounge room, and they thought, sort of struck us a

1122
00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:09,960
Speaker 2: little bit strong, what is this thing hanging in the doorway?

1123
00:55:11,200 --> 00:55:14,279
Speaker 2: And because I'm making a noise and trying to yell

1124
00:55:14,280 --> 00:55:16,040
Speaker 2: out for anybody who was around. And when they actually

1125
00:55:16,080 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 2: got right to the doorway, they realized that it was

1126
00:55:18,040 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 2: a human skin hanging on a nice stirl butcher's hook

1127
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,440
Speaker 2: hooked over the top of the architravee. I think it

1128
00:55:26,440 --> 00:55:30,440
Speaker 2: was Graham Phirl like I pushed that thinking skin aside

1129
00:55:30,840 --> 00:55:34,440
Speaker 2: and looked in and saw the mutilated body of John Price.

1130
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 2: And then they went down the hallway of the house,

1131
00:55:39,840 --> 00:55:47,000
Speaker 2: which was quite severely splattered in blood, to find Catherine

1132
00:55:47,040 --> 00:55:51,479
Speaker 2: Knight a can to taste in the bed and managed

1133
00:55:51,520 --> 00:55:54,319
Speaker 2: to wake her up and to take her down the

1134
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,200
Speaker 2: hallway and sit her on the back steps.

1135
00:55:56,560 --> 00:55:59,239
Speaker 1: I'll just hold you there because we might take a

1136
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:01,839
Speaker 1: break because I I want to deep dive into this

1137
00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:06,759
Speaker 1: as horrific as it is. And yeah, without with the

1138
00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:09,960
Speaker 1: respect to the victim, but this is a horrific crime,

1139
00:56:10,000 --> 00:56:14,520
Speaker 1: and you know, people need to understand what sometimes are

1140
00:56:14,560 --> 00:56:17,240
Speaker 1: confronted by police and what can happen in this world.

1141
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:21,240
Speaker 1: But yeah, we're talking a person that's been skinned.

1142
00:56:21,440 --> 00:56:24,080
Speaker 2: Yes, which is highly irregular.

1143
00:56:24,640 --> 00:56:27,719
Speaker 1: And this is and that's what was hanging hanging from

1144
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:30,480
Speaker 1: a hawk. Yes, As the police went in there and

1145
00:56:30,520 --> 00:56:37,360
Speaker 1: they pushed that aside. Yeah, and that's what they saw. Yep. Okay, Well,

1146
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: let's have ended on a hard note, but let's take

1147
00:56:42,840 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: a break and when we get back, I want to

1148
00:56:44,800 --> 00:56:49,320
Speaker 1: talk to you about that investigation. You led that investigation, Yes,

1149
00:56:49,480 --> 00:56:52,960
Speaker 1: and it went through the interviews, search, warrants and trials,

1150
00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 1: everything and your impression of night when you sat down

1151
00:56:56,600 --> 00:56:58,640
Speaker 1: and spoke with it. Because I think it'll be fascinating

1152
00:56:58,719 --> 00:57:00,919
Speaker 1: to get tried to get an inside into a person

1153
00:57:00,960 --> 00:57:03,719
Speaker 1: that's capable of committing a crime of this nature. Yes,

1154
00:57:03,920 --> 00:57:05,480
Speaker 1: so we'll talk about that when we get back on

1155
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,239
Speaker 1: part two, for sure,