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Speaker 1: The year is twenty sixteen. After twenty years faithfully serving

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Speaker 1: his country as a Navy seal and leading special operations

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Speaker 1: teams in dangerous missions around the world, Jackcar retires from

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Speaker 1: the military for the then forty one year old. It

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Speaker 1: marks the end of one chapter and the beginning of

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Speaker 1: a new one. As an acclaimed and best selling author.

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Speaker 1: Drawing on his military expertise and experience, Jack goes on

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Speaker 1: to write a series of fiction books so authentic their

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Speaker 1: release was held up by the US Department of Defense.

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Speaker 1: I'm Att Middleton and this is head Game Today. Jackcar

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Speaker 1: on his stellar tactical career and how he's translating everything

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Speaker 1: he's learned into books that give readers a true taste

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Speaker 1: of life in the military. Do I call you Jack Car?

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Speaker 1: Do I to call you James Rees, Tom Reese? What

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Speaker 1: do I go with?

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Speaker 2: Mate? Jack's good? Jack Good? What a similar between me

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Speaker 2: and those characters? But I make them all much better

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Speaker 2: than I ever was. They're much stronger, faster, better shots,

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Speaker 2: much more witty. That's for sure. That's why I'm an author.

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Speaker 2: You know, people always ask me to these public speaking engagements,

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Speaker 2: and I just I don't like them. So I make

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Speaker 2: my my public speaking fee so large that no one

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Speaker 2: can afford it. It's just you're great at it. You

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Speaker 2: got you are amazing at it in your stuff. But

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Speaker 2: I see what you do, I feel how many people

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Speaker 2: you you impact, and it's just amazing what you do.

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Speaker 2: And I just I say I'm a writer because I

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Speaker 2: can like go to bed. It's like, you know, when

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Speaker 2: you have you're like about to get in a fight

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Speaker 2: with somebody or whatever it was back in the day,

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Speaker 2: when you're dumb and drinking or whatever, and then you

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Speaker 2: think you walk away from it or whatever happens. You're like, man,

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Speaker 2: I could have said this, that would have been the

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Speaker 2: most amazing thing to say. But you're five minutes late,

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Speaker 2: you're two minutes late, you're or you wake up the

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Speaker 2: next day. That's why I'm an author because I can

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Speaker 2: put that in these books. I can think about that,

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Speaker 2: I can sleep on it. I can think of the

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Speaker 2: perfect thing to say for somebody when in real life

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Speaker 2: you're thinking of it a couple of minutes too late.

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Speaker 2: That's just how life goes.

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Speaker 1: Jack. I love how you say I'm just the writer.

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Speaker 2: Jack.

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Speaker 1: You know you're so modest. You spent twenty years as

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Speaker 1: a Navy Seal as the military always been in your family.

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Speaker 1: How did you come about just signing up for something

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Speaker 1: like that, because it runs deep in American history, especially

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Speaker 1: the Navy Seals. And it was this something that you

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Speaker 1: grew up with or was this something that you just thought,

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Speaker 1: do you know what, I want to test myself or

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Speaker 1: want to go out and do something for my country,

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Speaker 1: do something for myself, and so I'm going to join

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Speaker 1: the Navy Seals. How did that come around?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? I think it even if I didn't have a

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Speaker 2: military history, it was in my blood anywhere. I think

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Speaker 2: it was just in my DNA. I think everyone is

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Speaker 2: called to test themselves and to serve because you used

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Speaker 2: to have to do that. You used to have to

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Speaker 2: show that you could add value to the tribe otherwise

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Speaker 2: you were not welcome in said tribe back in the day.

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Speaker 2: And you had to be good at the fighting and

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Speaker 2: good at the hunting. And all of us have ancestors

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Speaker 2: that were good at those two things, or we would

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Speaker 2: not be here today. And even though rest I think

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Speaker 2: across the board through I thought, through the power of

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Speaker 2: popular culture, but even though that has been suppressed within us,

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Speaker 2: I think especially for guys at age like thirteen, fourteen, fifteen, sixteen,

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Speaker 2: seventeen eighteen. There's some calling there to test yourself and

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Speaker 2: to be of value to in this case our countries.

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Speaker 2: And a lot of people just say they don't listen

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Speaker 2: to that calling anymore. But I think it's very primal.

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Speaker 1: It's there, isn't it. It's embedded in us, It's in

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Speaker 1: our DNA, it's in our foundations. Is intertwined into why

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Speaker 1: we are in this thriving modern day society. Is it's

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Speaker 1: through that animal winkstinct that I don't care what you say,

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Speaker 1: all comes out of us in one form or another

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Speaker 1: at some stage in your life.

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Speaker 2: That's exactly right. And I also had my grandfather was

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Speaker 2: killed in World War Two. He was a marine of course,

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Speaker 2: air pilot, so that's the plan with the goal wings

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Speaker 2: that folded up like this so they could stack them

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Speaker 2: and found aircraft carriers. And he was killed off Oknawa

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Speaker 2: in nineteen forty five. But there was a TV show

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Speaker 2: speaking of the power of pope of their culture. There's

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Speaker 2: a show called Black Sheep Squadron and it was it

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Speaker 2: came out it was called Baba Black Sheep first and

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Speaker 2: then was syndicated as black sheep squadron with Robert Conrad,

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Speaker 2: an actor playing Pappy Boyton, a Marine Medal of Honor

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Speaker 2: recipient from World War Two who flew that same plane

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Speaker 2: as my grandfather. So I had my grandfather's medals, I

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Speaker 2: had his wings. I had pictures of him and his squadron.

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Speaker 2: I had the silk maps they used to give aviators

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Speaker 2: back then, because if you're flying over water and your ditch,

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Speaker 2: if you had a paper type of a map, you know,

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Speaker 2: it gets wet, it's useless.

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Speaker 1: We carry them still, you know, we still use them

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Speaker 1: for for the missions that we conducted. You'd have a

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Speaker 1: silk map, you know that you squnch away with maybe

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Speaker 1: a gold coin or some cash, and away you go.

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Speaker 2: You know, yeah, you guys had the gold coins. I

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Speaker 2: remember reading about the Gold War guys, and I was

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Speaker 2: like gold coin belt.

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Speaker 1: Then I can it never lasted the whole operation, you know,

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Speaker 1: it is always cashed in somewhere exactly.

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Speaker 2: Exactly, and they go, we're gonna get that receipt, you

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Speaker 2: know what I mean, and then frame it later. That's

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Speaker 2: the way that maps and everything. But yeah, it was.

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Speaker 2: It was in my DNA. I had that family history,

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Speaker 2: so I knew I was going to the military, and

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Speaker 2: my mom was a librarian. I grew up surrounded my

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Speaker 2: books and a love of reading. So we went down

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Speaker 2: to the local library, looked up Frogman, looked up That's

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Speaker 2: whe I found out about underwater demolition teams, naval combat

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Speaker 2: demolition units of World War Two, and Navy seals. And

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Speaker 2: I remember back then, I could find the end of

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Speaker 2: the Internet in the early eighties because you just go

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Speaker 2: to the end of the section of the library that

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Speaker 2: talks about seals, which was not very big at the time,

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Speaker 2: and I found out that seals were some of the

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Speaker 2: most elite special operators in the US Arsenal and that

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Speaker 2: the training buds was some of the toughest ever devised

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Speaker 2: by a modern military. So as a kid at age seven,

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Speaker 2: hearing those two things, I was in and that was

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Speaker 2: my path. I never veered from that. I always knew

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Speaker 2: I was going to serve. I always knew I was

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Speaker 2: going to test myself in this thing called buds, and

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Speaker 2: then I was going to go serve my country as

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Speaker 2: a seal. And then after that I was going to

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Speaker 2: write thrillers because I'm also reading during that timeframe. Clancy

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Speaker 2: Nelson de mill A J. Quinnell, J. C. Pollock, Mark Olden,

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Speaker 2: all these masters in the art of storytelling. But I'm

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Speaker 2: enjoying them like from the fan perspective, because a lot

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Speaker 2: of them had protagonists, had main characters that I wanted

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Speaker 2: to be one day. And if you're writing in the eighties,

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Speaker 2: your protagonist typically in these stories had experienced in Vietnam

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Speaker 2: as an Avy, Seal, Army, Green Berets, special Forces, and

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Speaker 2: now in the eighties there maybe they're still in the military,

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Speaker 2: or maybe they're a cop, maybe they're a stunt man,

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Speaker 2: maybe they're whatever they are, and now they use those

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Speaker 2: skills from back in Vietnam to solve problems in the

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Speaker 2: current day, which contemporary thriller in the eighties. So I

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Speaker 2: was getting all that influence back then, and I'm watching

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Speaker 2: movies like Rambo on First Blood and Commando and Predator

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Speaker 2: and Red Dawn and all of these amazing movies from

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Speaker 2: back in the eighties that impacted me at a time

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Speaker 2: between age like ten and twenty. I guess in there

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Speaker 2: probably earlier, and so that set me on this path,

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Speaker 2: and I don't think I could have prepared myself any

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Speaker 2: better for the thrillers that I write today. You know.

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Speaker 1: I love that that you knew that you were going

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Speaker 1: to you know, before you even join them in theitary,

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Speaker 1: you knew you wanted to be an author. You knew

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Speaker 1: you wanted to write. It was funny because that you

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Speaker 1: mentioned that, Because those saying to you just before we

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Speaker 1: got and jumped on this podcast was saying that I

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Speaker 1: read your notes. It felt like I was reading my

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Speaker 1: notes because I always knew that I would write a memoir,

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Speaker 1: you know, because from a young age I bounced from

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Speaker 1: Australia from the age of the one till three back

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Speaker 1: to the UK. Then I went over to France and

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Speaker 1: done all my secondary education out there, jumped over to

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Speaker 1: the UK too. I was in a parachute squadron and

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Speaker 1: I left the parachute squadron joined the Raw Marines, Raw

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Speaker 1: Marines from the Special and all whilst I was doing that,

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Speaker 1: I was thinking about writing a memoir. I was thinking, Car,

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Speaker 1: you know, there's a book here just from my upbringing,

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Speaker 1: so very very similar, man, And that's why I smiled.

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Speaker 1: I was like, I couldn't wait to get you on.

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Speaker 1: So as you're as you're reading these books and you're

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Speaker 1: going through this process, are you sort of mentally noting

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Speaker 1: this down in your head, as are you writing the

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Speaker 1: book as you're going from a young age. No, no,

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Speaker 1: it was just no, no, you're just enjoying the process.

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Speaker 2: Just like cause I realized, Oh, David Morrell he created

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Speaker 2: Rambo back in eighteen seventy two with First Blood. Here

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Speaker 2: in the eighties, he's writing an amazing series of books

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Speaker 2: that starts with The Brotherhood of the Rose, which is

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Speaker 2: taking like the best of UK spy fiction at the time,

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Speaker 2: which is like a Jean la Carey and US spy

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Speaker 2: fiction which is like a Ludlam at the time, and

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Speaker 2: combining those two together to make something different and move

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Speaker 2: the genre forward. But I'm watching those kind of the

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Speaker 2: way Quentin Tarantino describes movies. He didn't go to film school.

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Speaker 2: He was a fan of films, and he has an

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Speaker 2: encyclopedia when it comes to film specifically of the sixty seventies, eighties, nineties,

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Speaker 2: And so I think it's similar and that I was

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Speaker 2: just reading these things for the joy of the story.

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Speaker 2: And I think that's different than if I had woken

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Speaker 2: up one day, let's say, at age forty out of

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Speaker 2: a year or two, a year left in the military,

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Speaker 2: realize I'm going to get out and think, oh, maybe

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Speaker 2: I can try this writing thing. What should I have

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Speaker 2: been reading for the last thirty plus years of my

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Speaker 2: life that would have prepared me. And during a time

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Speaker 2: when I'm not distracted by a phone, when you can't

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Speaker 2: play video games for days on end, when you can't

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Speaker 2: see any movie or TV show any time you want

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Speaker 2: because you have to wait for it to come out

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Speaker 2: in the theater at seven fifteen at night or nine thirty,

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Speaker 2: depending if you could ride from your parents down to

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Speaker 2: the theater where they have to take you, or you

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Speaker 2: have to wait till eight nine or ten o'clock at

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Speaker 2: night for your TV show to come on. You're gonna

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Speaker 2: run around the woods, You're going to shoot your bow,

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Speaker 2: You're going to do all these outside things. Or you

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Speaker 2: can read. And so that was without those distractions, I

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Speaker 2: think was very different than reading one today while I

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Speaker 2: have a mortgage, while I have a car payment, while

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Speaker 2: I have a job, while I have a family kid.

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Speaker 2: I got to get to school, all of those things

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Speaker 2: that didn't exist for eight year old me, nine year

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Speaker 2: old me, twelve year old me, fifteen year old me.

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Speaker 2: When I could read an entire book without those filters

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Speaker 2: in place without some of those maybe the cynicism that

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Speaker 2: builds up over the years, and just pure joy realizing that, oh,

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Speaker 2: David Morrell must have done research into Army special forces

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Speaker 2: in order to write this, Nelson to Mill must have

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Speaker 2: done researching to the CIA in order to write this.

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Speaker 2: And so I'm just enjoying that side of it as well,

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Speaker 2: and it's becoming part of my experience. So I think

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Speaker 2: it's very different if I was to read all those

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Speaker 2: books today rather than when I did, because it was

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Speaker 2: such a pure reading experience when I did that, and

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Speaker 2: it became a part of my foundation in such a

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Speaker 2: pure way.

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Speaker 1: If that makes sense, Absolutely it does. And were your

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Speaker 1: parents quite quite strict on you or are they quite outgoing?

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Speaker 1: Was that sort of forced upon you or would that

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Speaker 1: just come through pure sort of fascination, pure passion and

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Speaker 1: you were just intrigued about the military, about your granddad

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Speaker 1: or were your parents quite strict on you and they're like, right,

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Speaker 1: you're going to read a book and you know you're

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Speaker 1: going to go outside and play or were they quite relaxed?

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Speaker 2: No, it's a more relaxed. Whether that was intentional or not,

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Speaker 2: I don't know. It made reading a natural part of

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Speaker 2: my life. So they read to me every night when

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Speaker 2: I was growing up, actually off the shelf, and when

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Speaker 2: I got to the age when I started reading books,

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Speaker 2: i'd be reading to them essentially the same time at

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Speaker 2: night before bed. It was a very natural thing. There

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Speaker 2: were books all over our house. We'd always go to

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Speaker 2: bookstores and libraries when we would travel. It was just very,

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Speaker 2: very natural, as natural is sitting down to eat or

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Speaker 2: doing anything else. It wasn't something I question. It wasn't like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I have to do this or I don't have to

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Speaker 2: do this. I wasn't even I never even considered that.

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Speaker 2: It was just something that we did as a family.

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Speaker 2: We were readers, and that stayed with me my whole life.

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Speaker 2: I'm going back right now and I'm reading all the

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Speaker 2: Jean Lere Careze in order because I've read like the

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Speaker 2: highlights from each decade sixty seventy nineties, like the one

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Speaker 2: that really stood out from those decades, but I've never

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Speaker 2: read them in order. Like the first two are kind

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Speaker 2: of like a UK murder mysteries. They're not really what

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Speaker 2: things would evolve into later, so reading them in order

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Speaker 2: is very is quite interesting. But the point being with

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Speaker 2: that is that I've always known exactly what I'm going

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Speaker 2: to read next. I've never not had a book in hand,

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Speaker 2: and I think that's really that's really made all the

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Speaker 2: difference across the board.

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Speaker 1: That's quite a unique story. So you're sitting on the

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Speaker 1: edge of your of your seat reading a book. Are

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Speaker 1: you waiting for the for your age limit to be

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Speaker 1: acceptable before you can go to the queer's office and

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Speaker 1: join the Navy salies? How does that work? Are you

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Speaker 1: literally on the edge of your seat counting down the days? Right,

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Speaker 1: I can join up now and away you go? Or

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Speaker 1: did you waite a little bit?

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Speaker 2: Well? I was on the edge of my seat. But

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Speaker 2: I wanted to have this education first. My parents did that.

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Speaker 2: I wanted to do that. I wanted to have a

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Speaker 2: backup plan, knowing that eighty percent of the show aren't

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Speaker 2: going to make it. I wanted to travel. My parents

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Speaker 2: had talked to me about them traveling through Europe in

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Speaker 2: the sixties with their backpacks and you know, buying this

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Speaker 2: sob back, then driving it around a little bit, and

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Speaker 2: then having it shipped back, you know, for like two

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Speaker 2: thousand dollars or something. So I grew up with those

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Speaker 2: kind of stories. My friend's parents did the same thing,

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Speaker 2: and they made a trip to Afghanistan. They went to

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Speaker 2: I remember hearing this as a kid, like nine years old.

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Speaker 2: I mean the study of a friend's dad, and he

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Speaker 2: has all these things from all over the world trips

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Speaker 2: that he took in the sixties and seventies, and one

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Speaker 2: of those was college and to Kabul back in the day,

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Speaker 2: back in that I think sixty eight or sixty nine,

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Speaker 2: somewhere in there, and so I'd see like the rugs

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Speaker 2: and everything that he brought back from these different places,

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Speaker 2: and I just wanted to have that experience before I

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Speaker 2: thought I was going to lose all my freedoms by

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Speaker 2: joining the military, and it does kind of work out

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Speaker 2: that way, but I wanted to have those experiences first

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Speaker 2: and then joy and also wanted to prepare myself as

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Speaker 2: much as I possibly could physically as well as mentally,

295
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Speaker 2: meaning I was also reading nonfiction anything I could find

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Speaker 2: on warfare at the time. So I'm reading anything on terrorism, counterinsurgencies,

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Speaker 2: counter terrorism forces, like anything that I can possibly find.

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Speaker 2: And there was amazing book especially when you travel internationally

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Speaker 2: and you went to UK or South Africa or Australia,

300
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Speaker 2: like they had different books over there that I'd never

301
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Speaker 2: seen before about some of these different different units. So

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Speaker 2: reading all those things also that had a tactical focus

303
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Speaker 2: where guys are starting to tell their stories about Vietnam,

304
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Speaker 2: telling stories about Rhodesia, telling stories about what it was

305
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Speaker 2: like to be Beroot nineteen eighty three, like all of

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Speaker 2: those things. And then also reading things that were more

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Speaker 2: mainstream like the Time magazine and Newsweek that covers of

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Speaker 2: Beroot and then the Baby Barricks bombing right there on

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Speaker 2: the covers. I have those today under glass in my office,

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Speaker 2: have a piece of the Baby Barracks building that somebody

311
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Speaker 2: gave me because I wrote a book last year with

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Speaker 2: a Pulitzer Prize finalist, James Scott, on the nineteen eighty

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Speaker 2: three Baby Bearck Spotting and really the seminal work on

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Speaker 2: that at this point. And so I've always had an

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Speaker 2: interest in not just the reading thrillers for entertainment, but

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Speaker 2: reading the nonfiction to make myself a better operator and leader.

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Speaker 2: Because I knew that one day, and this is again

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Speaker 2: the power of popular culture, I didn't want to be

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Speaker 2: that guy that I saw in Hollywood films that they

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Speaker 2: start the film or the TV show, and he's on

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Speaker 2: his couch and there's a bottle of Jack Daniels there,

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Speaker 2: and there's the pistol laying on the table, and he's

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Speaker 2: looking at the photo of his unit. He was only

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Speaker 2: going to survive in Vietnam because he made a bad

325
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Speaker 2: decision under fire or whatever. Something like that. A lot

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Speaker 2: of times was woven into these stories, and I realized,

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Speaker 2: I don't want to be that guy. I want to

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Speaker 2: be the person who didn't leave anything on the field

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Speaker 2: when it came to training, so that I at least

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Speaker 2: know that that's not going to be a part of

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Speaker 2: the fact. I know things can go totally south, and

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Speaker 2: we both know that even if you make every right

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Speaker 2: decision under fire, the enemy gets a vote and things

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Speaker 2: can still go south like that.

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Speaker 1: But you eliminate the excuses, don't you exactly?

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Speaker 2: I know that help I've only done that one more

337
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Speaker 2: run on the range, if I'd only read that one

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Speaker 2: more book on tactics or strategy or whatever else, or

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Speaker 2: I didn't want to leave anything on the field in

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Speaker 2: that respect. I wanted to do everything that I can

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Speaker 2: to prepare myself. You know, was reading all this stuff

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Speaker 2: about you guys in the first goal for like a

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Speaker 2: lot of people, did you know those two books that

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Speaker 2: came and came out of the nineties and writing notes

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Speaker 2: in the margins and like, oh, you know a black

346
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Speaker 2: Hawk down. I'm like, Oh, always take nods, Always take

347
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Speaker 2: a suppressor, even if it's a one hour daylight up

348
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Speaker 2: like that sort of thing. Always have that extra extra water,

349
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Speaker 2: Always have that extra ammo in the vehicles or the

350
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Speaker 2: or the bags ready to go out of the heros

351
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Speaker 2: that can resupply. Like all of those things that people

352
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Speaker 2: had learned, those lessons learned in Blood, Well I don't

353
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Speaker 2: have to learn them in blood anymore because someone else did.

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Speaker 2: And I can make that a part of my experience

355
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Speaker 2: through reading to prepare myself and now that that stuff

356
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Speaker 2: still helps me today as I solve problems just like

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Speaker 2: we did on the battlefield very creatively, very aggressively on

358
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Speaker 2: the battlefield. Now I'm solving problems in the pages of

359
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Speaker 2: these novels. But if I make a mistake, I can

360
00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:06,560
Speaker 2: come back and edit. Like we talked about it earlier,

361
00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:09,680
Speaker 2: the consequences of messing up aren't nearly as dire. I

362
00:16:09,720 --> 00:16:11,520
Speaker 2: can think of that cool line to say, or I

363
00:16:11,520 --> 00:16:13,120
Speaker 2: can remember that all these guys should have had their

364
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Speaker 2: suppressors and their nods and their lasers. But even though

365
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Speaker 2: it was like a daylight quick op, like that sort

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Speaker 2: of thing. I can weave those into the novels. So

367
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Speaker 2: all of those things are coming from in real place.

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Speaker 2: So I had the thrillers that I read, I had

369
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Speaker 2: the nonfiction that I read, the academic study of warfare,

370
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Speaker 2: and then that personal experience downrange in a rack in

371
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Speaker 2: Afghanistan and the feelings and emotions behind what it's like

372
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Speaker 2: to get ambushed in Bagdad or where it's like to

373
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Speaker 2: be in Ramadi as a sniper. I don't have to

374
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Speaker 2: go find a sniper and interview him and say what

375
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Speaker 2: was it like to be behind that class and then

376
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Speaker 2: have those answers get filtered through other books that I've read, documentaries.

377
00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,160
Speaker 2: I've seen preconceived notions I may have and then come

378
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Speaker 2: out into a fictional narrative. No, it comes right from

379
00:16:49,400 --> 00:16:52,520
Speaker 2: my heart and soul directly onto the page. So I

380
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Speaker 2: think that's made these things stand out as well.

381
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Speaker 1: Talk to me about the very first day that you

382
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Speaker 1: walked into the Creis office and how did that work

383
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Speaker 1: for you?

384
00:17:09,000 --> 00:17:10,600
Speaker 2: So it wasn't a career office. I walked right into

385
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Speaker 2: the recruiter, and I knew more about the seal than

386
00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,560
Speaker 2: the recruiter knew because these guys, you know, they're from

387
00:17:16,600 --> 00:17:19,200
Speaker 2: the fleet, they don't much and there's no Internet back

388
00:17:19,240 --> 00:17:21,359
Speaker 2: then when I walk in, and I think I walked

389
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Speaker 2: in ninety five and they didn't have a slot for

390
00:17:23,960 --> 00:17:26,199
Speaker 2: me till ninety six. Because I thought it was going

391
00:17:26,240 --> 00:17:28,040
Speaker 2: to be like Forrest Gump and you walk in like

392
00:17:28,160 --> 00:17:30,600
Speaker 2: Vietnam era, Like I walk in what I was ready

393
00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:32,720
Speaker 2: to go back? Hey, yeah, I thought you walk out

394
00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:35,040
Speaker 2: the back door and the bus is waiting, you climb

395
00:17:35,040 --> 00:17:36,960
Speaker 2: on the bus and off you go, like I did.

396
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Speaker 1: Not They had you your bag and they shove your

397
00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:40,720
Speaker 1: bag and you know you've read it from the books,

398
00:17:40,720 --> 00:17:43,120
Speaker 1: and you're like, you're off the walls exactly.

399
00:17:43,200 --> 00:17:45,399
Speaker 2: That's what I thought. That was my that was my

400
00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:47,399
Speaker 2: notion of it back then, before the Internet and before

401
00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:49,840
Speaker 2: social media, before I couldn't know anyone who was a seal.

402
00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:52,160
Speaker 2: I didn't know anybody who was Army Special Forces. When

403
00:17:52,160 --> 00:17:54,879
Speaker 2: I was young, I didn't know anybody that could guide

404
00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:57,040
Speaker 2: me through this process. My recruiter, I had no idea

405
00:17:57,080 --> 00:18:00,199
Speaker 2: what the die fair program was he had no no

406
00:18:00,240 --> 00:18:02,360
Speaker 2: real idea about seals, didn't know any seals. No one

407
00:18:02,359 --> 00:18:04,320
Speaker 2: really had much idea. They just knew that you were

408
00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:05,800
Speaker 2: going to go there. You're going to fail, and then

409
00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,200
Speaker 2: you're gonna to the fleet per.

410
00:18:08,040 --> 00:18:11,520
Speaker 1: On a ship for your Yeah, exactly, don't bother because

411
00:18:11,560 --> 00:18:14,320
Speaker 1: you're going to fail always like a ninety five cent failure, right,

412
00:18:14,520 --> 00:18:15,440
Speaker 1: don't bother your asse.

413
00:18:15,560 --> 00:18:17,640
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like a recruiting tool, you know, for the military.

414
00:18:17,680 --> 00:18:19,840
Speaker 2: It's like the Blue Angels, Like, yeah, I want to

415
00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:22,840
Speaker 2: join the military, and I want to fly like a

416
00:18:22,840 --> 00:18:24,520
Speaker 2: blue Angel that I've seen at this air show or

417
00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:27,520
Speaker 2: saw of the news. And then you join and realize

418
00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:29,240
Speaker 2: that you are not going to be that. You are

419
00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 2: going to do this one little thing here, and maybe

420
00:18:31,119 --> 00:18:33,600
Speaker 2: you love it. But these things are recruiting tools. You

421
00:18:33,600 --> 00:18:35,960
Speaker 2: see the Golden Knights, or you see the leaf Frogs,

422
00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,480
Speaker 2: or you know your parachute demonstration type teams. You know,

423
00:18:38,480 --> 00:18:40,760
Speaker 2: the recruiting tools for people. So I thought I was

424
00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 2: going to walk into the recruiting guy, sign up, sign

425
00:18:43,400 --> 00:18:44,960
Speaker 2: my name, and then walk onto that bus and go

426
00:18:45,000 --> 00:18:47,320
Speaker 2: to boot camp and be on my way. But I

427
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:49,040
Speaker 2: didn't realize I had to now go take like the

428
00:18:49,080 --> 00:18:53,400
Speaker 2: ASVAB test or whatever that was to physical I forget

429
00:18:53,400 --> 00:18:55,199
Speaker 2: what else you had to do, but whatever else you

430
00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:56,919
Speaker 2: had to do, and then you had to wait. So

431
00:18:56,960 --> 00:18:59,520
Speaker 2: in my case, because it was it wasn't war years yet,

432
00:19:00,080 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 2: it was a long time to wait before my slot

433
00:19:02,680 --> 00:19:04,919
Speaker 2: at boot camp. So I taught some diving. I'd been

434
00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,800
Speaker 2: a scuba diver early in life, age nine, I got certified.

435
00:19:08,200 --> 00:19:10,399
Speaker 2: My dad got me certified early so we could dive together,

436
00:19:10,440 --> 00:19:12,840
Speaker 2: and I worked some of that at the novels as well.

437
00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:15,480
Speaker 2: But anyway, so I go to go eventually get my

438
00:19:15,480 --> 00:19:17,440
Speaker 2: slot at boot camp. I want to do a list.

439
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:18,760
Speaker 2: That's one of the things that I got from reading.

440
00:19:18,760 --> 00:19:20,360
Speaker 2: I knew I didn't want to be an officer right away.

441
00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:23,119
Speaker 2: I became one later, but I knew I wanted to

442
00:19:23,119 --> 00:19:25,040
Speaker 2: be enlisted because the things that I read up to

443
00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:27,280
Speaker 2: that point anyway, said that officers aren't snipers. So I

444
00:19:27,320 --> 00:19:28,879
Speaker 2: was like, well, I'm not going to be an officer.

445
00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:31,560
Speaker 2: I read the Marsenko books you started enlisted, and then

446
00:19:31,640 --> 00:19:33,720
Speaker 2: the Rogue Warrior books, and then he became an officer later,

447
00:19:33,760 --> 00:19:35,080
Speaker 2: so I was like, okay, that'll be my path. I

448
00:19:35,080 --> 00:19:37,320
Speaker 2: want to be a sniper. I want to establish like

449
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,879
Speaker 2: a reputation. I want to learn this job instead of

450
00:19:40,920 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: just because Also those Vietnam movies, what happens all these

451
00:19:43,800 --> 00:19:45,880
Speaker 2: guys who have been in Vietnam for months on end,

452
00:19:46,520 --> 00:19:48,560
Speaker 2: they're doing it, they'd learned the lessons there out there,

453
00:19:48,600 --> 00:19:50,760
Speaker 2: and then some brand new officer shows up with his

454
00:19:50,800 --> 00:19:52,639
Speaker 2: little bar on and he walks them right into an

455
00:19:52,680 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 2: ambush like every Vietnam movie that happens. And I was like,

456
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,280
Speaker 2: that's not going to be me, Like I want to

457
00:19:57,280 --> 00:19:59,560
Speaker 2: be the sergeant guy that everybody looks up to you

458
00:19:59,560 --> 00:20:01,760
Speaker 2: like I would those kind of skills and then maybe

459
00:20:01,800 --> 00:20:02,840
Speaker 2: I'll be an officer later.

460
00:20:02,920 --> 00:20:04,720
Speaker 1: And also when you when you join as a grunt,

461
00:20:04,760 --> 00:20:06,360
Speaker 1: you know you can go and do these hard core

462
00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:11,399
Speaker 1: sort of field craft specializations. You know, reky troop operator,

463
00:20:12,200 --> 00:20:15,920
Speaker 1: your sniper's course, you know, your Forward air controllers course,

464
00:20:15,960 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 1: whatever it may be. You know, if you joined as

465
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:22,040
Speaker 1: a grunt, not as an officer, then you know they'd

466
00:20:22,080 --> 00:20:22,800
Speaker 1: throw you into that.

467
00:20:22,760 --> 00:20:26,520
Speaker 2: Anyway exactly exactly. You get you, you get to know

468
00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 2: the guys, you get to know the skill sets, you

469
00:20:29,080 --> 00:20:32,879
Speaker 2: establish a reputation and uh, and then you can decide

470
00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:34,840
Speaker 2: what you want to do from there, and so that

471
00:20:34,920 --> 00:20:36,560
Speaker 2: was really important to me. So I did that, went

472
00:20:36,600 --> 00:20:38,159
Speaker 2: to intelligence school at the time, because you had to

473
00:20:38,160 --> 00:20:40,879
Speaker 2: have a rating beforehand. You used to you don't do anymore.

474
00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,080
Speaker 2: Now they just prepare you for Buds for a few

475
00:20:43,080 --> 00:20:44,600
Speaker 2: months and then you go right to Buds. And now

476
00:20:44,600 --> 00:20:47,040
Speaker 2: we just have fitter quitters. It's still like eighty percent,

477
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:48,400
Speaker 2: but now they're just better.

478
00:20:48,200 --> 00:20:53,640
Speaker 1: Shaped fit quitters. Yeah they Yeah, they're fitter, but they're

479
00:20:53,640 --> 00:20:54,400
Speaker 1: still gonna.

480
00:20:54,240 --> 00:20:59,360
Speaker 2: Quit exactly because it's all about mental fortitude obviously. Still yeah,

481
00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:01,520
Speaker 2: intelligence school, and then I right to Buds from there,

482
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 2: So got there in ninety seven and then got to

483
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:05,119
Speaker 2: my first Seal team in ninety seven.

484
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:09,320
Speaker 1: And listen, take me back to Buds. You in Buds,

485
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,320
Speaker 1: and you know we've obviously people have You've read a

486
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:15,000
Speaker 1: lot of books. Obviously people have seen the movies now

487
00:21:15,080 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 1: and then the Navy Seals are renowned. What was it

488
00:21:18,160 --> 00:21:20,240
Speaker 1: like tipping up to that first day? Is the pressure

489
00:21:20,280 --> 00:21:21,600
Speaker 1: there was excitement for you?

490
00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:24,800
Speaker 2: I guess it was more it was both, But I

491
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:26,960
Speaker 2: think pressure for me because I've been thinking about it

492
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:29,280
Speaker 2: for so long since I was seven, and I told

493
00:21:29,680 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 2: my best buddies that I'm gonna be a seal from

494
00:21:32,240 --> 00:21:36,560
Speaker 2: an early age, and now it's time to actually do it.

495
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,159
Speaker 2: So even growing up, I was like, you know, I

496
00:21:40,200 --> 00:21:42,520
Speaker 2: see guys climbing ropes. What should I do? I should

497
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,560
Speaker 2: climb ropes. I see guys doing pull ups, I should

498
00:21:45,600 --> 00:21:47,560
Speaker 2: do pull ups. I see guys doing push ups, I

499
00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:49,520
Speaker 2: should do So I saw the flutter kicks, I should

500
00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,959
Speaker 2: do flutter kicks. I was a natural runner. And then

501
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,200
Speaker 2: I added the pull ups and the push ups and

502
00:21:55,240 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 2: the flutter kicks and added sprints in there. That sort

503
00:21:58,000 --> 00:21:59,879
Speaker 2: of a thing. So I prepare myself as much as

504
00:21:59,920 --> 00:22:02,040
Speaker 2: I could physically. For back then that would be different

505
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,760
Speaker 2: because you can get online and buy courses to tell

506
00:22:04,760 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 2: you what you're supposed to do. But back then, no,

507
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:08,960
Speaker 2: he didn't. There was nothing like that. So I could

508
00:22:09,000 --> 00:22:10,640
Speaker 2: just look and say, oh, I need to be able

509
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,760
Speaker 2: to do those things. So I show up at BUDS

510
00:22:12,760 --> 00:22:14,800
Speaker 2: and this is it. Now. I'm like, Okay, they're gonna

511
00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,840
Speaker 2: kill me or I'm gonna make it like there's no

512
00:22:17,040 --> 00:22:19,400
Speaker 2: there's nothing else. And then you get to this fourth

513
00:22:19,400 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 2: week of training and that's hell week, and that's the

514
00:22:21,200 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: thing that you've been building up in your mind. That's

515
00:22:23,560 --> 00:22:25,960
Speaker 2: the one that the instructors have been building up also

516
00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:28,920
Speaker 2: in your mind. And you're seeing every day that people

517
00:22:28,920 --> 00:22:30,919
Speaker 2: that quit, the majority of them in hell week from

518
00:22:30,920 --> 00:22:33,240
Speaker 2: the classes that are just ahead of you. And you

519
00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:35,400
Speaker 2: know how easy it is to quit, make it very

520
00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:37,679
Speaker 2: easy to self select out of this program. You just

521
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 2: ring this bell and take your helmet off and place

522
00:22:40,000 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 2: it down and.

523
00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 1: Three times thing thing thing.

524
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:47,040
Speaker 2: Exactly, and you see the brulets and they line up

525
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,840
Speaker 2: along this thing. So every day you run into this

526
00:22:49,880 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 2: grinder and you see all the people and their names

527
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:53,680
Speaker 2: are on there, so you can see the people kind

528
00:22:53,680 --> 00:22:55,159
Speaker 2: of that you know in the classes ahead of you

529
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:56,920
Speaker 2: that have now quit, and you're like, oh my gosh,

530
00:22:56,920 --> 00:22:58,760
Speaker 2: I can't believe that guy quit. He was an amazing shape.

531
00:22:58,760 --> 00:23:01,040
Speaker 2: He was like the fastest runner, the fastest guy through

532
00:23:01,080 --> 00:23:03,120
Speaker 2: the O course. I can't believe that guy quit. Wow.

533
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 2: This must be really hard and you don't know until

534
00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:07,920
Speaker 2: you go through it. But that's part of it. That's

535
00:23:07,960 --> 00:23:09,720
Speaker 2: part of that test, that's part of that calling to

536
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,119
Speaker 2: test yourself and prove value to this organization, to the

537
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 2: country and to your teammates, to you that are going

538
00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 2: to be on your right and left when you go

539
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:19,280
Speaker 2: down range. So all that reading, though, allowed me to

540
00:23:19,280 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 2: put it in perspective. Because those guys are quitting in

541
00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 2: droves first night at hell week, middle of the night.

542
00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: You're gonna be up for the entire week. You're gonna

543
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,800
Speaker 2: be on the verge of hypothermia the whole time. And

544
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 2: it's dark out and you're doing push ups on the

545
00:23:29,640 --> 00:23:32,080
Speaker 2: sand or your linked arms, and the waves are crashing

546
00:23:32,080 --> 00:23:34,080
Speaker 2: over you, and you're thinking, oh, man, I gotta do

547
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:38,200
Speaker 2: this until Friday. And it's Sunday right now, all right,

548
00:23:38,440 --> 00:23:41,040
Speaker 2: But I thought, you know what, I'm not doing. My

549
00:23:41,160 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 2: landing craft isn't approaching the shores of Normandy, and I'm

550
00:23:44,880 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: not about to run into a hal of machine gun

551
00:23:47,280 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 2: fire from elevated positions and have to cross open space

552
00:23:50,720 --> 00:23:53,360
Speaker 2: with no obstacle, no cover of concealment. You know what.

553
00:23:53,480 --> 00:23:56,040
Speaker 2: Those guys did that so that I can be here

554
00:23:56,400 --> 00:23:59,359
Speaker 2: and following my dreams. And they gave me the options

555
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:01,720
Speaker 2: and opportunities to really do anything that I want in life.

556
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,600
Speaker 2: And I want to do this, and yeah, I'm not

557
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: doing that.

558
00:24:05,080 --> 00:24:07,040
Speaker 1: Yeah you're not on the you're there on the beaches.

559
00:24:07,080 --> 00:24:09,440
Speaker 1: This isn't the Battle of the song. You know it's

560
00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,240
Speaker 1: and this is what I always say. I always say

561
00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,040
Speaker 1: this people when people like say to me, what's it

562
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,000
Speaker 1: like going to war? And I say, I don't know.

563
00:24:15,080 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 1: I've never been to war. I've been into combat, you know.

564
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: Don't get me wrong, I've been in some highly kinetic

565
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:24,520
Speaker 1: combat situations. But I'd never disrespect you know, veterans from

566
00:24:24,520 --> 00:24:26,240
Speaker 1: World War One and World War Two and say that

567
00:24:26,280 --> 00:24:28,600
Speaker 1: I've been to war. I haven't had trench foot, I

568
00:24:28,640 --> 00:24:31,199
Speaker 1: haven't been in the trenches. I haven't had to you know,

569
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:34,680
Speaker 1: get up and just attack, you know, go from trench

570
00:24:34,720 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 1: to trench, not know, you know, after being shelled, you know,

571
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:41,400
Speaker 1: with with lack of ammunition and lack of rations, you know,

572
00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:43,920
Speaker 1: not really knowing if I'm going to make it out

573
00:24:43,960 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 1: of this trench and into the next trench. So I'm

574
00:24:46,800 --> 00:24:49,199
Speaker 1: really glad that you said that because I feel very

575
00:24:49,280 --> 00:24:51,520
Speaker 1: very strongly about that as well. And you know, and

576
00:24:51,560 --> 00:24:53,200
Speaker 1: you and you get a lot of people that jump

577
00:24:53,200 --> 00:24:54,960
Speaker 1: on that bandwag and they go when I went to

578
00:24:55,000 --> 00:24:56,960
Speaker 1: war and tell me where you went. And then then

579
00:24:57,080 --> 00:25:00,400
Speaker 1: you know it's like, dude, relax, you know, know, it

580
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:02,520
Speaker 1: doesn't get me wrong. You know, we've lost a lot

581
00:25:02,520 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 1: of good people in Iraq, in Afghanistan on one hundred percent,

582
00:25:06,280 --> 00:25:11,040
Speaker 1: and they've been highly kinetic tools. But you know, you know,

583
00:25:11,119 --> 00:25:14,080
Speaker 1: we've had air assets, our disposal, we've you know, we've

584
00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,439
Speaker 1: not been mal nabbished. We've got the right equipment for

585
00:25:16,440 --> 00:25:19,439
Speaker 1: the right of the for the job. So you know,

586
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,360
Speaker 1: there's there's definitely a distinction between the two, right.

587
00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:24,360
Speaker 2: Oh yeah. I mean, the hardest thing you've ever done

588
00:25:24,400 --> 00:25:26,119
Speaker 2: is the hardest thing you've ever done, whether that's failing

589
00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: a math test in UH in high school or storming

590
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:31,600
Speaker 2: the beaches of Normandy, So it's all all relative. So

591
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,720
Speaker 2: I think that really helps in life in general. And

592
00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,040
Speaker 2: you don't have to get that from storming the beaches

593
00:25:36,040 --> 00:25:38,600
Speaker 2: of Normandy. You can get that by reading about what

594
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 2: these guys did and then you make that part of

595
00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 2: your experience. And even on the fiction side, when you

596
00:25:43,640 --> 00:25:47,560
Speaker 2: read something fiction, you see the world through the eyes

597
00:25:47,640 --> 00:25:50,960
Speaker 2: of that character, and it really helps develop that that empathy,

598
00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:53,560
Speaker 2: that compassion I think can help make you a better

599
00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:57,440
Speaker 2: human being generally. So I think there's an important aspect

600
00:25:57,520 --> 00:26:00,159
Speaker 2: to reading fiction and not just the nonfiction, but of

601
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:03,160
Speaker 2: course both of those together, I think you develop yourself

602
00:26:03,200 --> 00:26:05,639
Speaker 2: as a human being, make yourself a better citizen, a

603
00:26:05,680 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 2: better husband, a better father, and our cases, better operators,

604
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:14,520
Speaker 2: better leaders, and putting things in relative terms in life

605
00:26:15,040 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 2: is of vital importance. So all those guys that wrote

606
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,360
Speaker 2: those Vietnam books, that told me about their stories through

607
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:27,760
Speaker 2: the pages of memoirs so important, especially today when kids

608
00:26:27,800 --> 00:26:31,439
Speaker 2: are getting bombarded with so many things on these bones,

609
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: through these apps that are not positive, that don't put

610
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:37,480
Speaker 2: things in relative terms, that only make them feel bad

611
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 2: about themselves. And they need heroes. They need your books

612
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:44,040
Speaker 2: out there, they need your nonfiction, they need your fiction,

613
00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 2: They need you on those stage, they need to follow

614
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,200
Speaker 2: you on the social channels because you're such a positive influence,

615
00:26:49,280 --> 00:26:52,800
Speaker 2: especially for everybody, but especially for those guys, those kids

616
00:26:52,800 --> 00:26:56,160
Speaker 2: who are being bombarded with the opposite message that's meant

617
00:26:56,160 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 2: to divide and meant to keep them addicted to these

618
00:26:58,320 --> 00:27:01,119
Speaker 2: things that isn't doing anything to make a better human being,

619
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 2: and you're fighting against that. You're out there doing fighting

620
00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,359
Speaker 2: the good fight, being that example for a generation that

621
00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:09,320
Speaker 2: desperately needs role models.

622
00:27:09,359 --> 00:27:11,479
Speaker 1: It's music to my ears. I'm hearing this, mate, because

623
00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,679
Speaker 1: you know, it almost fortifies the message that I'm trying

624
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 1: to deliver hence what you deliver as well, you know,

625
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:21,760
Speaker 1: even even stronger. So it's it's yeah, mate, it's so

626
00:27:21,880 --> 00:27:24,280
Speaker 1: needed nowadays. And when you look at it like that,

627
00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:29,280
Speaker 1: the fiction books are they can almost you know, that imagination.

628
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,720
Speaker 1: They can drift away, can't they They can, you know,

629
00:27:32,560 --> 00:27:35,520
Speaker 1: can fortify their mindset. It will it will be will

630
00:27:35,720 --> 00:27:41,199
Speaker 1: it will spark a creative sort of imaginary mindset moving forward.

631
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,760
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I mean it forces you to live life

632
00:27:44,840 --> 00:27:48,040
Speaker 2: for a moment, for a chapter, for uh, have a minute,

633
00:27:48,160 --> 00:27:50,760
Speaker 2: We're gonna spend those pages in someone else's shoes from

634
00:27:50,800 --> 00:27:54,080
Speaker 2: their perspective, And if you don't do that, you're not

635
00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: really getting that anywhere else. It's just your perspective on

636
00:27:57,119 --> 00:27:59,119
Speaker 2: the world. And then how you're being manipulated through these

637
00:27:59,119 --> 00:28:01,680
Speaker 2: devices in our pockets that are not doing us any

638
00:28:01,720 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 2: favors as a as our countries or even as a world.

639
00:28:07,040 --> 00:28:10,159
Speaker 2: They're doing the opposite of that. So it's it is

640
00:28:10,160 --> 00:28:12,520
Speaker 2: a vital importance to to read these books and live

641
00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,600
Speaker 2: life through someone else's eyes and live like in their shoes,

642
00:28:15,640 --> 00:28:19,280
Speaker 2: because it truly does make you able to better relate

643
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:23,159
Speaker 2: to to others, converse with others understand others have that

644
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 2: compassionate streak that's so important as a human being. But

645
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:27,760
Speaker 2: then on the other side of that, it's good to

646
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: have some backup too and be ready to be ready

647
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:31,240
Speaker 2: to throw down when you need to.

648
00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: So to throw down, that's the one.

649
00:28:33,480 --> 00:28:34,960
Speaker 2: You got to do that as well, you know. That's

650
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,200
Speaker 2: that's part of us all being here in our responsibility

651
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: as citizens, as husbands, as fathers is to be protectors,

652
00:28:40,040 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 2: to be guarded and guarded.

653
00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, you've got to be able to unleaf the beast,

654
00:28:43,200 --> 00:28:45,080
Speaker 1: you know, and and then put it, put him back

655
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:48,640
Speaker 1: on his leash if you wish. Yeah, absolutely, one hundred percent.

656
00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,880
Speaker 1: So you pass you passed, buds? How many how many

657
00:28:50,920 --> 00:28:53,760
Speaker 1: of you are left in us? It's quite it's quite

658
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: a magical day, that really, isn't it, Because you know,

659
00:28:55,840 --> 00:28:58,560
Speaker 1: you look around and like you say, you see the helmets,

660
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:01,520
Speaker 1: the people that you started if are no longer there,

661
00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:04,680
Speaker 1: the really fit people that have just burnt out because they,

662
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,440
Speaker 1: you know, they haven't got the psychological resilience or or

663
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 1: the emotional intelligence to be able to handle that element

664
00:29:10,400 --> 00:29:13,760
Speaker 1: of the course, which is it's all about how does

665
00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: it feel when you're getting your you know, bombe, you're

666
00:29:18,080 --> 00:29:20,320
Speaker 1: getting we called it, we call it getting badged when

667
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 1: you're getting badged and you and you stood there and

668
00:29:22,960 --> 00:29:23,840
Speaker 1: you know, yeah, no.

669
00:29:24,000 --> 00:29:25,480
Speaker 2: That was I mean, that was awesome. That comes a

670
00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:28,400
Speaker 2: little bit later, But finishing Hell week is so awesome

671
00:29:28,440 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: because that's like the thing that you have been thinking about.

672
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:33,160
Speaker 2: You still have a long way to go. You have

673
00:29:33,240 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 2: to go through dive phase, prove you're comfortable in the water,

674
00:29:35,920 --> 00:29:36,800
Speaker 2: go through all those.

675
00:29:36,920 --> 00:29:39,880
Speaker 1: Tests, continuation training there after Hell Week.

676
00:29:39,960 --> 00:29:41,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, there it comes next and you got to show

677
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,959
Speaker 2: which is essentially showing you're safe with explosives and uh

678
00:29:45,080 --> 00:29:48,000
Speaker 2: and firearms, like very basic stuff that you're learning there.

679
00:29:48,040 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 2: But but you still have to pass and people are

680
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 2: still gonna some people are gonna quit, but most from

681
00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,480
Speaker 2: then onward are going to fail because they're not comfortable

682
00:29:55,480 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 2: in the water on pool comp or something like that,

683
00:29:57,840 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 2: or they're not safe with the explosives. They just can't

684
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,400
Speaker 2: pass those tests or whatever or whatever else. When you

685
00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,200
Speaker 2: pass that hell we during Hell week, I remember the

686
00:30:05,280 --> 00:30:08,280
Speaker 2: class saying like people start quitting and you're in the

687
00:30:08,320 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 2: ocean or whatever, and the white waves are splashing over

688
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,760
Speaker 2: you and it's night and you're hearing that belding because

689
00:30:14,080 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 2: they put it in the trailer hitch of a truck,

690
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 2: so you see it the whole time. For all the

691
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,360
Speaker 2: rest of buds. It's in front of the first sphase office.

692
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,240
Speaker 2: So if you want to quit before hell week or after,

693
00:30:22,280 --> 00:30:24,440
Speaker 2: you got to run to this office ding put your

694
00:30:24,440 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 2: hell wet down. But during hell week it's in the

695
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 2: trailer hitch of a card. There's a special thing on

696
00:30:28,160 --> 00:30:30,200
Speaker 2: this truck, and so you see it the whole time.

697
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:31,840
Speaker 2: You have to run anywhere you gotta just.

698
00:30:33,760 --> 00:30:36,400
Speaker 1: So the temptation is, I didn't know that, and I

699
00:30:36,440 --> 00:30:38,680
Speaker 1: know a hell of a lot. So it literally follows

700
00:30:38,720 --> 00:30:41,080
Speaker 1: you around. So even if you have a what we

701
00:30:41,160 --> 00:30:43,360
Speaker 1: call a brain far, even if you have a have

702
00:30:43,400 --> 00:30:46,880
Speaker 1: a slight distraction, and it's like it's there and you

703
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:48,720
Speaker 1: can get on the back of the wagon, have a

704
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: nice coffee at the back, you know, probably a nice

705
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:53,960
Speaker 1: sandwich whatever. I didn't know that. That's interesting.

706
00:30:54,040 --> 00:30:57,560
Speaker 2: Yeh, Donuts, coffee, hot chocolate is right there the whole time,

707
00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:00,160
Speaker 2: and so is that. So is that bell. And then

708
00:31:00,160 --> 00:31:03,880
Speaker 2: you can see it the entire week right there, and

709
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,160
Speaker 2: it's it's go, go go. But I remember a lot

710
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:07,920
Speaker 2: of people in the class would say don't quit, don't quit.

711
00:31:07,960 --> 00:31:09,800
Speaker 2: If somebody got up it too and made their way

712
00:31:09,840 --> 00:31:12,200
Speaker 2: towards the bell, and I was like, I'm gonna be stuggling,

713
00:31:12,240 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: don't quit, don't quit. I'm like, this isn't working. This

714
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 2: is the program working. Uh. And so that was to

715
00:31:18,240 --> 00:31:20,600
Speaker 2: ring the bell. They should not be here. And I'm

716
00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:22,920
Speaker 2: not gonna say, hey, don't quit, buddy, you know, no.

717
00:31:22,960 --> 00:31:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, no, yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one less that you

718
00:31:25,080 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 1: have to compete against.

719
00:31:26,080 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's not well, it's not even that well, like

720
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,800
Speaker 2: they're competing. It's an internal thing like that's some sure.

721
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:32,680
Speaker 2: I mean, this thing has been around for This is

722
00:31:32,720 --> 00:31:35,160
Speaker 2: something I have now in common with every seal that's

723
00:31:35,200 --> 00:31:37,760
Speaker 2: ever gone through the program, someone who went through in

724
00:31:37,800 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: the sixties, the seventies, the eighties, something that I'll have

725
00:31:40,440 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: in common with someone who goes through next week. We

726
00:31:42,520 --> 00:31:46,360
Speaker 2: have this this foundation, this common experience called buds where

727
00:31:46,400 --> 00:31:49,440
Speaker 2: we didn't quit and uh. And so I thought that

728
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,240
Speaker 2: when people quit, I was always like, ooh, that's that's

729
00:31:52,320 --> 00:31:56,120
Speaker 2: keeping me a little warmer, because this is the program working.

730
00:31:56,480 --> 00:31:58,840
Speaker 2: And uh, I told myself, while I'm just gonna I'd

731
00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:01,600
Speaker 2: rather die than than quit. It bites out, but you

732
00:32:01,600 --> 00:32:03,080
Speaker 2: don't know until you do it. You can say that

733
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: all you want, but now you go through it. So

734
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,160
Speaker 2: they release you on Friday afternoon, and it's amazing. And

735
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,320
Speaker 2: then your your mattresses are pulled off your beds and

736
00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 2: they have roving patrols that walk around. Because your body

737
00:32:13,120 --> 00:32:15,480
Speaker 2: is so tired that if your hand falls off the bed,

738
00:32:15,480 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 2: there's not you can't push like the fluids back up.

739
00:32:18,280 --> 00:32:20,640
Speaker 2: So they people will come, these guards will come and

740
00:32:20,640 --> 00:32:22,080
Speaker 2: they'll pick up your hand and put it back on

741
00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,800
Speaker 2: the mattress. Your leg falls off the mattress, they'll come

742
00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:26,720
Speaker 2: back and they'll put your leg on the mattress. So

743
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,640
Speaker 2: they pull them off your bunks, put them on the floor,

744
00:32:28,760 --> 00:32:31,920
Speaker 2: and that's where you sleep the first night, and and

745
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:33,880
Speaker 2: they walk around to make sure that no one no

746
00:32:33,920 --> 00:32:36,120
Speaker 2: one dies, and that they're they're staying on the bed

747
00:32:36,200 --> 00:32:38,640
Speaker 2: so that their body fluids can start working normally again

748
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,560
Speaker 2: after a week of being pushed to those to those

749
00:32:41,600 --> 00:32:43,560
Speaker 2: limits and not sleeping. So it's a weird your body's

750
00:32:43,600 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 2: in the weird state. But then the next day I'm

751
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 2: ever feeling pretty good. We went to a little breakfast

752
00:32:48,440 --> 00:32:50,520
Speaker 2: place the next day for like a brunch and just

753
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 2: chowed down on waffles and eggs and pancakes and syrup

754
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: and butter and like it.

755
00:32:55,920 --> 00:32:58,719
Speaker 1: Was nothing like a good night's sleep. Nothing a good

756
00:32:58,840 --> 00:33:01,480
Speaker 1: night sleep. Console out a good night's sleep and then

757
00:33:01,920 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: a nice crunch in the morning.

758
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:06,120
Speaker 2: There you go, mate, but later there you get your

759
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:08,920
Speaker 2: tried later it might now now you get yet can

760
00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:10,760
Speaker 2: get it earlier. We had to go to the team

761
00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:13,600
Speaker 2: first and prove yourself to your platoon, which I liked

762
00:33:14,040 --> 00:33:16,920
Speaker 2: because now, yeah, you've been through buds, you've been through

763
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 2: seal qualification training, and now you're in your platoon. But

764
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 2: now you're with people who are going to be the

765
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,520
Speaker 2: people you go down range with. They're going to be

766
00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:30,240
Speaker 2: your seal teammates to your right left. They get to decide.

767
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,440
Speaker 1: During this time, Jack, are you are you? Are you

768
00:33:39,520 --> 00:33:41,920
Speaker 1: thinking about writing at this stage? So now that you're

769
00:33:41,920 --> 00:33:45,400
Speaker 1: going through this, or is you're writing or your author

770
00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:48,680
Speaker 1: sort of a creativity and your juice is flowing white

771
00:33:48,760 --> 00:33:49,920
Speaker 1: you're going through buds.

772
00:33:50,400 --> 00:33:52,880
Speaker 2: Not really, it's more of I'm reading. I'm still reading.

773
00:33:52,880 --> 00:33:56,120
Speaker 2: I always have one fiction and one one nonfiction going

774
00:33:56,200 --> 00:33:58,560
Speaker 2: all the time, so I've no I've always done that.

775
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,960
Speaker 2: But I'm not thinking about writing. I'm thinking about I'm

776
00:34:03,000 --> 00:34:06,160
Speaker 2: just reading and reading those things I enjoy and reading

777
00:34:06,160 --> 00:34:07,320
Speaker 2: the things that I think are going to make me

778
00:34:07,360 --> 00:34:09,680
Speaker 2: a better operator and a better leader. So that was

779
00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:12,120
Speaker 2: the focus for my entire time in until my last

780
00:34:12,320 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 2: year and a half, when I dropped my papers to

781
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:17,600
Speaker 2: get out. Then yeah, and I'm not taking guys down

782
00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:19,880
Speaker 2: range anymore, and I'm getting ready to get out. And

783
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:22,360
Speaker 2: that's when I start doing the actual writing and using

784
00:34:22,520 --> 00:34:24,960
Speaker 2: all those things that I had read my entire life,

785
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:28,480
Speaker 2: fiction and non and those experiences from downrange in the

786
00:34:28,480 --> 00:34:31,600
Speaker 2: pages of a completely fictional narrative, which I think humanized

787
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,719
Speaker 2: it for the reader because they think they can realize

788
00:34:33,800 --> 00:34:36,279
Speaker 2: that when I'm writing comes from a real place, and

789
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:39,359
Speaker 2: the feelings and emotions attached to what I'm describing are real.

790
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,719
Speaker 2: They're not from somebody else twisting and morphing. And it's

791
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:44,759
Speaker 2: not my take on when it feels like No, it's

792
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:46,200
Speaker 2: what it felt like to be in an ambush in

793
00:34:46,200 --> 00:34:47,759
Speaker 2: the middle of the night and bag got in two

794
00:34:47,760 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: thousand and six, Like that's in there in a completely

795
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,160
Speaker 2: fictional way because my character is getting ambushed on the

796
00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,440
Speaker 2: streets of Los Angeles as part of the eight up story,

797
00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:57,319
Speaker 2: or Hey, this is what it feels like to press

798
00:34:57,320 --> 00:35:01,680
Speaker 2: the trigger behind a sniper rifle. A real feeling. It's

799
00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 2: not somebody else's that I'm now twisting for this character. No,

800
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:08,359
Speaker 2: it's my feeling and it's real. So I think that's

801
00:35:09,000 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: really made the books stand out, and the fact that

802
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,759
Speaker 2: my characters on a journey like we all are. I

803
00:35:13,760 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: didn't want him to be somebody who's the same person

804
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:18,880
Speaker 2: just dropped in a new scenario every book. He's growing

805
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:21,440
Speaker 2: and learning and taking the experiences of the past and

806
00:35:21,520 --> 00:35:25,080
Speaker 2: previous books and applying them to current problem sets as wisdom,

807
00:35:25,320 --> 00:35:28,200
Speaker 2: which hopefully is what we're all doing in life. And

808
00:35:28,400 --> 00:35:30,000
Speaker 2: so he's doing that as well. So I think, whether

809
00:35:30,040 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: readers know it or not, our listeners know it or not,

810
00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:35,440
Speaker 2: that they're on a journey, and so is this character.

811
00:35:35,560 --> 00:35:38,000
Speaker 2: So now they have something in common. So I'm not

812
00:35:38,040 --> 00:35:39,880
Speaker 2: thinking my whole time in, I'm not thinking. I just

813
00:35:40,000 --> 00:35:42,560
Speaker 2: know that when I get out, and early on I thought,

814
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: you know, maybe all the six years in, maybe I'll

815
00:35:44,560 --> 00:35:47,160
Speaker 2: do ten years. There's no war on yet we thought

816
00:35:47,200 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: that we were going to get like as soon as

817
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: we crossed the quarterdeck to our first teams. We thought

818
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,160
Speaker 2: we were going to get issued the pagers, all this

819
00:35:52,239 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: amazing gear, go run off to the Save the Princess op,

820
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:57,560
Speaker 2: get back in time for beers, And that was really

821
00:35:57,680 --> 00:35:59,960
Speaker 2: not what was happening then, unless you hit a flat

822
00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:03,279
Speaker 2: point like let's say a desert one in eighteen eighty,

823
00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 2: or a grenada or a Panama or an issue or

824
00:36:06,080 --> 00:36:08,000
Speaker 2: you had something to do with a kinetic operation in

825
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,640
Speaker 2: the first goal for like, those were essentially flash points

826
00:36:10,640 --> 00:36:14,720
Speaker 2: though we hadn't been in sustained combat operations since Vietnam,

827
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:17,400
Speaker 2: and you guys, you guys had more sustain combat out

828
00:36:17,440 --> 00:36:18,959
Speaker 2: I guess at Northern Ireland you had some.

829
00:36:19,520 --> 00:36:22,480
Speaker 1: Falklands literally, even though it was a flatberatey with the

830
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,439
Speaker 1: Falklands was a you know, it was a prominent point

831
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,920
Speaker 1: as well. But again, but then you had that quiet period,

832
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:31,280
Speaker 1: didn't you. You know, there was a good couple of decades,

833
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,959
Speaker 1: even you know, two three decades of that quiet point.

834
00:36:34,000 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 1: And even in the Special Forces, you know, yeah, you

835
00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,719
Speaker 1: had your go forwards, but they were they were not

836
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,000
Speaker 1: flash points. But you know, you're in and out. There

837
00:36:41,040 --> 00:36:45,080
Speaker 1: wasn't any sort of rotations like your Iraqs, in your Afghanistans.

838
00:36:45,120 --> 00:36:46,800
Speaker 2: I remember being in Afghanistan in the early days and

839
00:36:46,840 --> 00:36:49,680
Speaker 2: I thought, man, I'm so lucky I got in here

840
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,239
Speaker 2: when I did, because this thing's going to be over

841
00:36:51,280 --> 00:36:53,600
Speaker 2: in a year, you know, like this is like and then,

842
00:36:54,160 --> 00:36:55,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I had no idea it was gonna be

843
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,880
Speaker 2: a twenty year misadventure or adventure however you look at it,

844
00:36:58,920 --> 00:37:01,799
Speaker 2: I guess, but but that was that was early on,

845
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,879
Speaker 2: and I had no idea we would be involved there

846
00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 2: in particular as long as we were. And then in Iraq,

847
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:08,560
Speaker 2: of course, you see like you're there one year and

848
00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 2: then you come back the next year you're like, oh,

849
00:37:09,680 --> 00:37:12,160
Speaker 2: things have gotten a lot worse. What are we doing here?

850
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 2: Like what we seem not to be helping this situation?

851
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:17,680
Speaker 2: And then you come back again, Oh geez, what is

852
00:37:17,680 --> 00:37:20,719
Speaker 2: a disaster. So you're taking taking lessons, But that's the

853
00:37:20,760 --> 00:37:22,120
Speaker 2: leadership part of it, because you're there to do the

854
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: job and you're going to go out and crush it regardless.

855
00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:26,960
Speaker 2: But at the same time, as a leader, the guys

856
00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:29,040
Speaker 2: have to know that I'm not just repeating the silly

857
00:37:29,080 --> 00:37:32,640
Speaker 2: things that higher ups tell me. They're getting my perspective

858
00:37:32,680 --> 00:37:34,440
Speaker 2: on what we're doing, why we're doing it, how to

859
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:36,360
Speaker 2: stay focused on the mission so I can. I mean,

860
00:37:36,440 --> 00:37:38,080
Speaker 2: my goal was obviously to bring as many of them

861
00:37:38,120 --> 00:37:40,800
Speaker 2: back as possible, and I did things a little differently.

862
00:37:40,800 --> 00:37:42,439
Speaker 2: I think, then, since we're talking about it, I don't

863
00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:44,279
Speaker 2: really think. I don't think about this or talk about

864
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:46,919
Speaker 2: it too much. But you get pounded into your head

865
00:37:47,000 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 2: mission comes first, and I think people just repeat that

866
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 2: over and over and over again. And so anytime someone

867
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:55,000
Speaker 2: repeats something over and over and over again, I always

868
00:37:55,000 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: take a second look at it, especially if I'm studying

869
00:37:58,320 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 2: the landscape, and I remember thinking like, okay, yeah, but

870
00:38:03,800 --> 00:38:05,760
Speaker 2: if my men come first, and this is totally opposite,

871
00:38:05,800 --> 00:38:07,840
Speaker 2: if any I ever heard from anybody else, and I thought,

872
00:38:08,120 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 2: if I take care of my guys to the best

873
00:38:10,440 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: of my ability, which is what I'm wired for, anyway,

874
00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,040
Speaker 2: we're going to accomplish that mission. We're going to crush this.

875
00:38:16,120 --> 00:38:18,640
Speaker 2: So by default that mission is coming first. But in

876
00:38:18,680 --> 00:38:21,479
Speaker 2: my mind, my men are coming first. I'm not gonna

877
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:24,520
Speaker 2: let some idiot in the Pentagon who doesn't know what's

878
00:38:24,520 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: happening down here dictate whether my guys come home or not.

879
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:30,400
Speaker 2: Because I've been told mission comes first, over and over again. No,

880
00:38:30,480 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: I'm taking care of my guys, and by default then

881
00:38:33,280 --> 00:38:36,040
Speaker 2: we are going to crush this mission. So in my head,

882
00:38:36,080 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: I did it a little differently than I'd ever heard

883
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:39,400
Speaker 2: it from anybody else. I never told anybody that in

884
00:38:39,480 --> 00:38:41,239
Speaker 2: because as soon as you do, you get somebody who

885
00:38:41,400 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: hasn't been in combat and they're your CEO, and they

886
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:45,359
Speaker 2: got there for whatever it is, their timing was off.

887
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:46,600
Speaker 2: You know, maybe it's not their fault. Jack.

888
00:38:46,880 --> 00:38:49,879
Speaker 1: I think that was the progression over reck in Afghanistan though,

889
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,120
Speaker 1: because you know, we went for the old school traits

890
00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,799
Speaker 1: of mission comes first, Mission comes first, and I completely

891
00:38:55,880 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 1: agree with you. But this modern day warfare where we

892
00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:02,239
Speaker 1: were there for prolonged period of time. You know, we

893
00:39:02,239 --> 00:39:06,359
Speaker 1: were combat hard and combat ready, combat veterans. I look

894
00:39:06,360 --> 00:39:09,759
Speaker 1: at the older generation of Special Forces operators. They were

895
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,560
Speaker 1: more highly trained, they were highly tuned, but our training

896
00:39:12,680 --> 00:39:14,839
Speaker 1: was the battlefield. You know, we'd get badge and we'd

897
00:39:14,840 --> 00:39:17,400
Speaker 1: go straight out on rotation, do a rotation. Before you

898
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:19,200
Speaker 1: knew it. You know, you were back out again on

899
00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:21,280
Speaker 1: rotation before you knew it. You were on your second

900
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: tour of Afghanistan, your third tour of Afghanistan, and with

901
00:39:24,600 --> 00:39:27,560
Speaker 1: the Teleiban and al Kada being so sort of you know,

902
00:39:27,719 --> 00:39:32,040
Speaker 1: them also trying to stay one step ahead, you know it.

903
00:39:32,440 --> 00:39:34,719
Speaker 1: I saw things a lot differently when I became a

904
00:39:34,800 --> 00:39:37,759
Speaker 1: team leader on my third tour of Afghanistan. It was

905
00:39:38,080 --> 00:39:39,680
Speaker 1: as long as I didn't give up. Fuck if we

906
00:39:39,719 --> 00:39:41,640
Speaker 1: hit a dry hole, you know, we'd go at the

907
00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: turk would you know, would be on the on the blower.

908
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:45,759
Speaker 1: All of a sudden we hit a dry hole. We

909
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,600
Speaker 1: find out through the air assets. You know, they went

910
00:39:48,640 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: an hour before, whatever it may be. But as long

911
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:55,200
Speaker 1: as no one was injured, no one got shot, no one,

912
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,399
Speaker 1: you know, I came home with the whole team and

913
00:39:57,520 --> 00:40:00,680
Speaker 1: the whole the whole unit, if you wish, then for me,

914
00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:03,440
Speaker 1: that was mission success. But if it didn't have you know,

915
00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,800
Speaker 1: if someone got blown up or which happened, or someone

916
00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:08,480
Speaker 1: you know got shot and you know we were dragging

917
00:40:08,480 --> 00:40:11,320
Speaker 1: them back in the in the helicopters through the r

918
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: V points for the extraction points, and you know, that

919
00:40:15,680 --> 00:40:18,000
Speaker 1: would really plan my mind, that would be that would

920
00:40:18,040 --> 00:40:20,839
Speaker 1: be a mission that would really look back on and go, well,

921
00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:23,680
Speaker 1: that fucking didn't go to plan. That If anything, even

922
00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:25,920
Speaker 1: though we got the mission done. That was a fucking

923
00:40:25,920 --> 00:40:28,480
Speaker 1: failed mission in my eyes, So I completely get that.

924
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:31,000
Speaker 1: But I think that was that's the experience of being

925
00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:34,640
Speaker 1: boots on the ground, on consistent rotations, on trying to

926
00:40:34,680 --> 00:40:38,600
Speaker 1: stay one step ahead, because ultimately the mission never really changes,

927
00:40:38,680 --> 00:40:41,759
Speaker 1: but it's the team around you that that will get you.

928
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:44,840
Speaker 2: There, right, Yeah, for me, that was it was the trust.

929
00:40:44,920 --> 00:40:46,680
Speaker 2: And I look back on it, and I didn't think

930
00:40:46,680 --> 00:40:48,000
Speaker 2: about this at the time. I was just doing it

931
00:40:48,040 --> 00:40:50,319
Speaker 2: because I was so immersed in trying the best to

932
00:40:50,320 --> 00:40:52,920
Speaker 2: be the best leader and operator I could. But looking back,

933
00:40:53,200 --> 00:40:55,239
Speaker 2: it was the importance of trust, building that trust both

934
00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,319
Speaker 2: up and down the chain of command, because that gave

935
00:40:57,320 --> 00:40:59,799
Speaker 2: me freedom of maneuver on the battlefield. And so that

936
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:03,680
Speaker 2: trust was of such vital importance. And reading was a

937
00:41:03,719 --> 00:41:05,239
Speaker 2: part of that, and people knew that I was always reading,

938
00:41:05,239 --> 00:41:07,000
Speaker 2: I was always studying, that I was good on the

939
00:41:07,080 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 2: range and I was going to I was training on

940
00:41:08,640 --> 00:41:10,000
Speaker 2: my own and I would get out there. Even when

941
00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 2: I got to a level where maybe I didn't have

942
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: to go to the obstacle course because I had a

943
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: meeting to go to, I'd always go to the obstacle

944
00:41:14,760 --> 00:41:16,600
Speaker 2: course because, yeah, I'm running the obscal course in Yah.

945
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,560
Speaker 2: It's good for fitness. More importantly, I'm showing these younger

946
00:41:19,600 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 2: guys that I can still get out there and crush

947
00:41:21,360 --> 00:41:24,440
Speaker 2: it and beat most of them. Like that's more important

948
00:41:24,680 --> 00:41:27,640
Speaker 2: than this meeting, or it's more important that being in

949
00:41:27,719 --> 00:41:29,960
Speaker 2: good shape, good shape I'm gonna be in regardless, but

950
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:32,080
Speaker 2: being out there shoulders shoulder with them. Was to go

951
00:41:32,239 --> 00:41:33,960
Speaker 2: up these nets and go to the slide for life

952
00:41:33,960 --> 00:41:36,040
Speaker 2: and work our way across the spider wall and sprint

953
00:41:36,040 --> 00:41:38,359
Speaker 2: to the end. Like they're seeing that, You're seeing you

954
00:41:38,480 --> 00:41:41,719
Speaker 2: out there as essentially a peer who's going to be

955
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 2: with them as you do these missions. And it's that

956
00:41:44,719 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 2: camaraderie and that trust because they know you don't maybe

957
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:48,600
Speaker 2: don't have to be there when you get to a

958
00:41:48,640 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 2: certain level, but you are there and that means for them.

959
00:41:51,880 --> 00:41:53,600
Speaker 2: And then we talked a lot about special operations on

960
00:41:53,640 --> 00:41:56,440
Speaker 2: this and man even early on in Afghanistan or in

961
00:41:56,480 --> 00:42:00,360
Speaker 2: Iraq or whatever, and I'd see those guys, the regular

962
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:03,040
Speaker 2: soldiers who are like eighteen nineteen, twenty twenty one, two

963
00:42:03,080 --> 00:42:06,520
Speaker 2: twenty three years old, standing these posts or as we're

964
00:42:06,520 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 2: going out at a time and place of our choosing

965
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:14,160
Speaker 2: with AC one thirties overhead reapers, predators, experimental aircraft in

966
00:42:14,520 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 2: some cases for ISR, like all of these things with

967
00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:20,480
Speaker 2: our best friends, as highly trained as we can be

968
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 2: with years of experience now a lot of these times,

969
00:42:23,320 --> 00:42:25,800
Speaker 2: and we're choosing for the most part, we're choosing the

970
00:42:25,880 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 2: time and place based off the best intelligence out there,

971
00:42:29,880 --> 00:42:34,160
Speaker 2: human intelligence and singles type intelligence, and we're going to

972
00:42:34,200 --> 00:42:37,160
Speaker 2: connect this mission. Meanwhile, you have a twenty year old

973
00:42:37,320 --> 00:42:41,200
Speaker 2: kid who is who has a rifle that's probably cited

974
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 2: in or whatever, maybe as an a cog on that

975
00:42:43,239 --> 00:42:44,919
Speaker 2: in the early days, maybe not even an a cog

976
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:48,840
Speaker 2: and they're moving out an eye sight yeah site, moving

977
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:51,319
Speaker 2: out into these villages and compounds in Afghanistan in the

978
00:42:51,360 --> 00:42:54,520
Speaker 2: heat of the day without the benefit of an insane

979
00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:58,520
Speaker 2: platform overhead like an AC one thirty and moving through

980
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:03,720
Speaker 2: these compounds, moving through these streets essentially as targets. And

981
00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:07,359
Speaker 2: those guys have all my respect in the world. Those

982
00:43:07,360 --> 00:43:10,160
Speaker 2: guys that did that, that didn't choose the time and

983
00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,200
Speaker 2: place of their engagements and essentially just went out there

984
00:43:14,360 --> 00:43:16,760
Speaker 2: as presence patrols in some of these places like Ramadi

985
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: and Bagdad and other places in Afghanistan wherever else. Those guys, man,

986
00:43:22,160 --> 00:43:23,680
Speaker 2: they had all my respect then and they continue to

987
00:43:23,719 --> 00:43:24,759
Speaker 2: have all my respect.

988
00:43:24,440 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 1: Today after multiple tools of duty in the back in Afghanistan.

989
00:43:29,840 --> 00:43:31,279
Speaker 1: What makes you want to leave?

990
00:43:32,600 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 2: It was my last time that I would tactically maneuver

991
00:43:34,840 --> 00:43:36,880
Speaker 2: guys on the battlefields and know for So that's for

992
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:39,279
Speaker 2: those listening. It's like a major in the in the

993
00:43:39,280 --> 00:43:43,560
Speaker 2: in the army, it's it's a lieutenant commander in the seals.

994
00:43:43,880 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 2: So it's the last time that I would do what

995
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:47,920
Speaker 2: I was good at. And I think it's important to

996
00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:51,239
Speaker 2: know your your capabilities and limitations. And I am not

997
00:43:51,600 --> 00:43:55,560
Speaker 2: good at the administrative side of warfare. I am not

998
00:43:55,760 --> 00:43:57,800
Speaker 2: good at being on a staff.

999
00:43:57,520 --> 00:43:59,799
Speaker 1: You made you didn't want to fucking do it. That's

1000
00:43:59,840 --> 00:44:01,680
Speaker 1: the it was here A lot of that listen.

1001
00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 2: I don't have any Yeah, yeah, I know. I could

1002
00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:08,520
Speaker 2: recognize that. And so I got to that stage four

1003
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 2: last time going to Iraq as a troop commander or

1004
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: tasking the commander, and then got back from that, looked

1005
00:44:14,160 --> 00:44:16,160
Speaker 2: around and said, okay, that was the last time I

1006
00:44:16,200 --> 00:44:17,600
Speaker 2: will do the job that I came in to do.

1007
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:20,200
Speaker 2: That I thought about doing my entire life and what's

1008
00:44:20,200 --> 00:44:22,719
Speaker 2: ahead for me is probably a staff job somewhere, circle back,

1009
00:44:22,800 --> 00:44:25,239
Speaker 2: maybe as a CEO at some point, maybe where you're

1010
00:44:25,239 --> 00:44:27,400
Speaker 2: more of a manager in today's world in the military,

1011
00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: as you know. But for those listening, you're more of

1012
00:44:29,080 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: a managerial type leader in those situations, and that's important,

1013
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:34,160
Speaker 2: it's great, but it's just not.

1014
00:44:34,360 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: It wasn't my path, not for you, not for Jackca,

1015
00:44:37,440 --> 00:44:37,799
Speaker 1: not for me.

1016
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:39,279
Speaker 2: And my family need to meet it put up with

1017
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:41,960
Speaker 2: a lot over the last preceding twenty years. We have

1018
00:44:41,960 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: a middle child with Relly severe special needs and needs

1019
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,200
Speaker 2: twenty four to seven full time care forever. My wife

1020
00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:48,240
Speaker 2: had been taking care of him for all these deployments.

1021
00:44:48,280 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 2: When I'm down range with my best friends and my

1022
00:44:50,160 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: right and left doing this job, not worried about anything else.

1023
00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:56,120
Speaker 2: So it was just very It's once again, I listened

1024
00:44:56,160 --> 00:44:58,640
Speaker 2: to the calling when it came to joining the military,

1025
00:44:58,680 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: listen to that calling when it came to to being

1026
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,759
Speaker 2: drawn towards the profession of writing. And when I got

1027
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:05,560
Speaker 2: back from Iraq, I realized, like, oh, it's time to

1028
00:45:05,600 --> 00:45:07,399
Speaker 2: get out. Just listen to it. I didn't fight it, Yeah,

1029
00:45:07,400 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: I thought, I know, just like this is the same

1030
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:12,560
Speaker 2: the same the same sixth sense that that that kept

1031
00:45:12,600 --> 00:45:16,520
Speaker 2: our ancestors alive, that maybe helped out in Iraq in Afghanistan. Well,

1032
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:18,200
Speaker 2: that one's telling me it's time to get out. So

1033
00:45:18,280 --> 00:45:19,960
Speaker 2: I didn't fight it. I just listened to it and

1034
00:45:20,360 --> 00:45:22,360
Speaker 2: uh and made that move into the into the private

1035
00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:23,480
Speaker 2: sector and started writing.

1036
00:45:23,640 --> 00:45:26,760
Speaker 1: Tell me about writing, and tell me how you got

1037
00:45:26,800 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 1: to cry Havoc which is yeah, is your latest one.

1038
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 1: Because I've written a few fiction books. I've really enjoyed

1039
00:45:36,600 --> 00:45:38,239
Speaker 1: my fiction books. So I've written a lot of non

1040
00:45:38,280 --> 00:45:42,040
Speaker 1: fiction which have been super successful. And my fiction books.

1041
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: I've got a character called Mallory and the first one

1042
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 1: is Cold Justice, and the second one is called Red Mist.

1043
00:45:49,040 --> 00:45:51,960
Speaker 1: And when I was reading through your characters, your character

1044
00:45:52,160 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: is James Reese and now there's we've qui havocs. There's

1045
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,920
Speaker 1: Tom reeson there, but is is Jans Rees like Mallory

1046
00:46:02,080 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 1: is to me.

1047
00:46:04,000 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 2: A version of Jack Cars very similar. And then his

1048
00:46:10,239 --> 00:46:18,640
Speaker 2: prayer Snapper becomes an officer that he's gonna as I

1049
00:46:18,640 --> 00:46:25,200
Speaker 2: do all idiot learning cruiser, U I do uh calibers

1050
00:46:25,239 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 2: that I that I like, especially on the staper side

1051
00:46:27,080 --> 00:46:29,360
Speaker 2: of the House of the Preana wind Meg, so we

1052
00:46:29,440 --> 00:46:31,359
Speaker 2: have a lot of similarities, but once again, he's better

1053
00:46:31,360 --> 00:46:31,800
Speaker 2: at everything.

1054
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:36,040
Speaker 1: These books have been super successful, mate, that you know,

1055
00:46:36,120 --> 00:46:38,480
Speaker 1: your your career has been super successful, and you put

1056
00:46:38,520 --> 00:46:41,640
Speaker 1: it down to you know, to reading, which I which

1057
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,560
Speaker 1: is just you know, I love that that's weaved into everything,

1058
00:46:44,640 --> 00:46:47,600
Speaker 1: everything you've done, even though we went quite heavily into

1059
00:46:47,600 --> 00:46:50,799
Speaker 1: your military career, and you know, the books always came up.

1060
00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:51,040
Speaker 2: Mate.

1061
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:54,520
Speaker 1: You give credit to the books, to reading, which I

1062
00:46:54,520 --> 00:46:56,960
Speaker 1: think is phenomenal. So it's it's always been in you.

1063
00:46:57,000 --> 00:46:59,439
Speaker 1: But these books, mate, did you know at the time,

1064
00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,880
Speaker 1: because I know you're a super positive person and you

1065
00:47:02,920 --> 00:47:05,160
Speaker 1: obviously when you got into your writing, you knew that

1066
00:47:05,239 --> 00:47:08,040
Speaker 1: this is what you always wanted to do. Did you

1067
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:09,799
Speaker 1: know they would be this successful?

1068
00:47:09,920 --> 00:47:12,480
Speaker 2: You know, it sounds terrible to say, but I think

1069
00:47:12,480 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: that's because I knew out I wanted to do so early.

1070
00:47:14,880 --> 00:47:16,440
Speaker 2: So you know, I never read a book in the

1071
00:47:16,480 --> 00:47:19,640
Speaker 2: eighties or nineties that didn't say New York Times bestseller

1072
00:47:19,840 --> 00:47:22,319
Speaker 2: on the cover, and so that's just a part of me.

1073
00:47:22,360 --> 00:47:24,160
Speaker 2: That's just what I think I'm going to do, and

1074
00:47:24,200 --> 00:47:26,560
Speaker 2: I'm going to write books like these and they're going

1075
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:28,480
Speaker 2: to be number one New York Times best selling books,

1076
00:47:28,600 --> 00:47:30,279
Speaker 2: and then we're gonna make a movie or TV show

1077
00:47:30,360 --> 00:47:32,319
Speaker 2: out of them. And I just never really gave it

1078
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 2: much more thought than that, other than knowing that they're

1079
00:47:35,560 --> 00:47:37,960
Speaker 2: gonna be good because I know what I like. I

1080
00:47:38,040 --> 00:47:42,239
Speaker 2: prepared myself as well as anyone could possibly prepare themselves

1081
00:47:42,320 --> 00:47:46,040
Speaker 2: for this next phase of life, and so my mind,

1082
00:47:46,080 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: I didn't worry about any of that side of it.

1083
00:47:48,520 --> 00:47:51,080
Speaker 2: I just worried about the story. And by worry, I

1084
00:47:51,080 --> 00:47:53,680
Speaker 2: mean I just put my all into the story. I

1085
00:47:53,680 --> 00:47:55,359
Speaker 2: didn't think about what's popular what's not.

1086
00:47:55,640 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 1: Do you weren't distracted, You have fully focused, like you've

1087
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,399
Speaker 1: bimmed you up throughout your whole career on what you

1088
00:48:01,520 --> 00:48:03,640
Speaker 1: knew you wanted to write.

1089
00:48:04,000 --> 00:48:06,920
Speaker 2: Exactly exactly about anything like that. I was focused on

1090
00:48:06,960 --> 00:48:09,560
Speaker 2: the story and the story only. And I realized that

1091
00:48:09,640 --> 00:48:12,040
Speaker 2: if I focus on the story, don't worry about what's

1092
00:48:12,040 --> 00:48:15,760
Speaker 2: popular right now, no, never, it always is about the story.

1093
00:48:15,760 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: And by making it always about the story, my heart

1094
00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:20,640
Speaker 2: and soul going into every word, then I'm honoring that readership,

1095
00:48:20,640 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 2: that listenership, because I'm writing the best stories I possibly

1096
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,719
Speaker 2: can for that moment in time. And so I'm respecting

1097
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:28,879
Speaker 2: the time they're gonna spend with me, time they're never

1098
00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,359
Speaker 2: going to get back. So that's how it's always always been,

1099
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:33,480
Speaker 2: and I certainly don't see that changing in the future.

1100
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 1: Tell me about the books and what they're called, in

1101
00:48:39,040 --> 00:48:41,640
Speaker 1: what order you wrote them, and then where we're at

1102
00:48:41,719 --> 00:48:43,080
Speaker 1: right now with Client Havoc.

1103
00:48:43,480 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. I started with the Terminal list I came out

1104
00:48:45,080 --> 00:48:46,959
Speaker 2: in twenty eighteen. A TV show came out in twenty

1105
00:48:47,000 --> 00:48:50,239
Speaker 2: twenty two, and after that Amazon wanted more shows. So

1106
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,239
Speaker 2: we just finished True Believer in Morocco about a week ago,

1107
00:48:53,400 --> 00:48:55,920
Speaker 2: and in the interim we did a spin off called Darkwolf,

1108
00:48:55,920 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: which is number one on Prime video right now, and

1109
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: that's a prequel origin story. Chris Pratts in that also,

1110
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: but so is a character named Ben Edwards who is

1111
00:49:05,000 --> 00:49:08,160
Speaker 2: played by Taylor Kitsch, and that's crushing it across the board.

1112
00:49:08,239 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 2: So hopefully we'll get some more of those. And then

1113
00:49:10,600 --> 00:49:12,960
Speaker 2: this is the latest one right here, Pry Havoc, and

1114
00:49:13,000 --> 00:49:16,359
Speaker 2: that is the prequel. So people can start. I say

1115
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,759
Speaker 2: start with The Terminalist and read through because it'll be

1116
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:21,960
Speaker 2: a more impactful reading experience if you go. And I

1117
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 2: don't think a publisher elects. When I say that, they

1118
00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:24,840
Speaker 2: like you to say that you can start with the

1119
00:49:24,880 --> 00:49:28,160
Speaker 2: latest one, but that I think it's a more impactful

1120
00:49:28,320 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: and meaningful reading experience if you start from the beginning.

1121
00:49:31,200 --> 00:49:33,200
Speaker 2: But this is the beginning because it's a prequel order

1122
00:49:33,239 --> 00:49:35,680
Speaker 2: de story in nineteen sixty eight, really wanted to write

1123
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 2: an espionage thriller that was set in the heart of

1124
00:49:38,520 --> 00:49:42,760
Speaker 2: the Vietnam Conflict, focusing on MacFee sag during the bloodiest

1125
00:49:42,800 --> 00:49:44,840
Speaker 2: year of that war for the United States, which was

1126
00:49:44,880 --> 00:49:49,279
Speaker 2: nineteen sixty eight. So inspired by Graham Green and The

1127
00:49:49,360 --> 00:49:51,760
Speaker 2: Quiet America in nineteen fifty five, The Tears of bottomn

1128
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: Charles McCarey, who was a CIA guy who wrote thrillers

1129
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:57,920
Speaker 2: in the seventies that's nineteen seventy four, and Sean mcerray

1130
00:49:58,000 --> 00:50:00,480
Speaker 2: Honorable school Boy in nineteen seventy seven. Those are like

1131
00:50:00,480 --> 00:50:04,000
Speaker 2: the three books that were espionage thrillers set in Southeast Asia,

1132
00:50:04,120 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: and we haven't had one for a long long time,

1133
00:50:06,640 --> 00:50:09,359
Speaker 2: so origin story right here. Always knew that I would

1134
00:50:09,360 --> 00:50:12,000
Speaker 2: do it. I seeded this novel very early on in

1135
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:14,319
Speaker 2: the terminal list and really go into some of the

1136
00:50:14,320 --> 00:50:17,799
Speaker 2: backstory in Only the Dead, which was book number six,

1137
00:50:17,880 --> 00:50:20,719
Speaker 2: I believe. But this one right here is where I'd

1138
00:50:20,760 --> 00:50:22,960
Speaker 2: go deep into that and really do something I've never

1139
00:50:22,960 --> 00:50:25,520
Speaker 2: done before, which is an espionage thriller set in the

1140
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 2: heart of Southeast Asia nineteen sixty eight. So definitely the

1141
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:31,839
Speaker 2: best one to date and that's always my goal.

1142
00:50:31,960 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: Cry have it com How do we get hold of it?

1143
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 2: Mate? It's anywhere books are sold, hardcover, ebook, audiobook gets

1144
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:40,600
Speaker 2: out there in the UK audiobook people love Ray Porter,

1145
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:44,720
Speaker 2: my narrator, awesome guy. So yeah, manywhere books are sold,

1146
00:50:44,960 --> 00:50:47,919
Speaker 2: but the audio seems to be people really love that audio. Yeah,

1147
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:49,759
Speaker 2: I think that. I think that's like a gateway drug

1148
00:50:49,840 --> 00:50:53,080
Speaker 2: maybe for reading. Like the younger generation we'll listen to

1149
00:50:53,160 --> 00:50:56,239
Speaker 2: a podcast, pretty natural for them to listen to an audiobook,

1150
00:50:56,239 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 2: and maybe that inspires them to go and read and

1151
00:50:59,440 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 2: build their libraries and surround themselves with books. So that's

1152
00:51:03,400 --> 00:51:03,719
Speaker 2: my hope.

1153
00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: Anyway, Jack car you've been amazing mate. Listen. I could

1154
00:51:06,719 --> 00:51:09,040
Speaker 1: have spoke to you for hours and listen. You've been

1155
00:51:09,120 --> 00:51:12,239
Speaker 1: fantastic mate. Thank you so much and thanks for coming

1156
00:51:12,280 --> 00:51:14,080
Speaker 1: on my podcast Headgame.

1157
00:51:14,440 --> 00:51:16,319
Speaker 2: Hey, thanks so much. Appreciate everything you do and being

1158
00:51:16,400 --> 00:51:19,080
Speaker 2: such a positive influence, especially for this next generation who

1159
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,160
Speaker 2: needs it, so hopefully you can meet up in person

1160
00:51:21,520 --> 00:51:21,919
Speaker 2: very soon.

1161
00:51:23,120 --> 00:51:26,600
Speaker 1: Jackcar's latest book, Cry Havoc, is out now. I'll put

1162
00:51:26,600 --> 00:51:29,120
Speaker 1: the details on how to grab it in the show notes.

1163
00:51:29,640 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining me on this episode of Headgame. If

1164
00:51:32,760 --> 00:51:36,480
Speaker 1: you enjoyed this episode, please leave me a review. I'm

1165
00:51:36,520 --> 00:51:39,280
Speaker 1: Att Middleton. See you again next time.