WEBVTT - 400 days of torture inside Egyptian prison: Peter Greste Pt.1 0:00:01.880 --> 0:00:04.880 The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 0:00:05.360 --> 0:00:08.039 Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:11.080 exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:14.040 For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 0:00:14.440 --> 0:00:16.200 That's what I did for a living. I was a 0:00:16.200 --> 0:00:20.560 homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:23.120 I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 0:00:23.840 --> 0:00:26.400 The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 0:00:26.440 --> 0:00:28.760 from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.440 and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:34.640 of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 0:00:34.640 --> 0:00:37.640 no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 0:00:38.159 --> 0:00:46.559 Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 0:00:46.960 --> 0:00:49.600 I had the pleasure of speaking to award winning foreign 0:00:49.600 --> 0:00:54.280 correspondent Peter Grest, who was wrongfully imprisoned in an Egyptian jail. 0:00:55.080 --> 0:00:58.040 He spent four hundred days locked up in the Cairo prison, 0:00:58.560 --> 0:01:02.440 whereas forced to survive conditions after he's falsely accused of 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.120 being a terrorist. We talked about his lengthy time behind 0:01:06.160 --> 0:01:09.440 bars and how that experience made him reflect on his 0:01:09.520 --> 0:01:12.720 own life and discover a strength and resilience he didn't 0:01:12.720 --> 0:01:16.240 realize he had. Peter also spoke about his life on 0:01:16.280 --> 0:01:19.920 the road, working as a journalist for the BBC, Reuters 0:01:20.160 --> 0:01:24.360 and Al Jazeera in some of the world's most dangerous locations. 0:01:24.400 --> 0:01:27.800 In these environments where colleagues have been kidnapped and murdered 0:01:28.120 --> 0:01:31.640 just for simply doing their jobs, Peter also spoke about 0:01:31.640 --> 0:01:34.600 the importance of freedom of the press and the crucial 0:01:34.680 --> 0:01:37.720 role at plays in world events, a subject he is 0:01:37.840 --> 0:01:42.919 very passionate about. Here is his story, Peter Gresser, Welcome 0:01:42.959 --> 0:01:43.839 to our catch Killers. 0:01:43.920 --> 0:01:44.680 Thanks for having me. 0:01:45.080 --> 0:01:47.920 Well, I've got to say, Peter, I've learned a bit 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:50.320 about you. I knew a bit about you before you 0:01:50.440 --> 0:01:52.760 were coming on as a guest. And I've got to 0:01:52.800 --> 0:01:55.600 say a career as a foreign correspondent that's about as 0:01:55.600 --> 0:01:59.200 good a job as you can get. I think. What's 0:01:59.240 --> 0:01:59.960 your take on it? 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:02.720 Yeah, I loved it. I mean the thing that drew 0:02:02.800 --> 0:02:05.760 me into the career was a couple of things. It 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.160 was a license to indulge your curiosity. You know, if 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:11.280 there was something that you're interested in, then it meant 0:02:11.400 --> 0:02:13.600 that you were someone was prepared to pay you to 0:02:13.639 --> 0:02:16.959 go and investigate, to stick your nose into someone else's 0:02:17.000 --> 0:02:20.440 business to find out. But it was also I guess, 0:02:20.480 --> 0:02:24.040 a license to have adventures to some extent. You've got 0:02:24.080 --> 0:02:25.520 to be careful what you wish for. I guess. 0:02:25.639 --> 0:02:29.200 Yeah, Well, I suppose for all the good parts there 0:02:29.680 --> 0:02:33.520 was well, the experience you had in Cairo and Egypt. 0:02:33.520 --> 0:02:36.280 Obviously you don't put that as a high point. But 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:40.160 it's a fascinating job because you get to go to 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.680 some of the world's hot spots where everyone's curious about it, 0:02:43.720 --> 0:02:45.880 and you were actually there reporting on the ground. 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.440 Yeah, and not just I mean the hot spots are 0:02:48.480 --> 0:02:51.359 the obvious ones. They're the ones that tend to make 0:02:51.360 --> 0:02:56.280 the headlines. But places like Antarctica, or places like you know, 0:02:57.400 --> 0:03:03.280 corners of Africa where they're translocating offence, or parts of 0:03:03.360 --> 0:03:08.320 the Middle East where the extraordinary archaeological excavations that are 0:03:08.400 --> 0:03:10.320 taken place. I mean, all of this stuff is open 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.200 to you as a foreign correspondent. So as long as 0:03:12.240 --> 0:03:13.480 as I said, as long as you can make a 0:03:13.520 --> 0:03:17.560 case for a good story, then you're able to go 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:18.880 and stick your nose in. 0:03:19.280 --> 0:03:21.800 I think it gives you a worldly view, doesn't It's 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:24.440 like we've come back to Australia, but it gives you 0:03:24.480 --> 0:03:25.640 a more worldly view. 0:03:25.840 --> 0:03:28.880 Yeah, you can't help but not have an understanding of 0:03:28.919 --> 0:03:33.920 the globe as a as a fascinating, extraordinary place. I 0:03:34.000 --> 0:03:37.000 miss it terribly, I really do. It became a part 0:03:37.040 --> 0:03:39.920 of my identity and not being able to do that, 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.040 I think is something that was quite tough for me. 0:03:42.960 --> 0:03:45.480 But yeah, it's still very much a part of my DNA. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:50.680 Okay, And you're also a member of a very limited 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:55.920 club of people that have been arrested in foreign grounds 0:03:55.960 --> 0:04:00.560 for a variety of fenss terrorism. For your one, we've 0:04:00.600 --> 0:04:06.280 dealt with Kylie Moore Gilbert and also Sean Turnbell and yeah, 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:08.280 even chain Lay. 0:04:08.440 --> 0:04:11.360 Yeah. In fact, we're all together as a part of 0:04:11.560 --> 0:04:14.680 the Awada group of people who are Australians who have 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:19.520 formerly detained arbitrarily. And Kylie, Sean and myself are all 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:23.680 coincidentally academics at mcquarie University where we've decided to form 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:26.000 our own little nest of spies and terrorists. 0:04:26.760 --> 0:04:31.279 We've had all those guests, all the people we just 0:04:31.360 --> 0:04:34.480 mentioned on the podcast here, and I've been amazed by 0:04:34.600 --> 0:04:37.040 this story, but the amazed how they also came through 0:04:37.720 --> 0:04:40.279 the experience, but one exclusive club you're a member of. 0:04:40.560 --> 0:04:43.599 Yeah, it is a pretty special club. And I love 0:04:43.640 --> 0:04:46.680 them all. You know, they're all extraordinary people, and I 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:48.680 guess in a way there's a sort of self selecting 0:04:48.720 --> 0:04:51.760 group in that they've come out of it, out of 0:04:51.800 --> 0:04:55.880 their experiences with the determination and strength to do something 0:04:56.240 --> 0:05:00.760 with the time that they spent behind bars hasn't killed them. 0:05:00.760 --> 0:05:03.760 It has made them stronger and it's given us all, 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:06.039 I think is a kind of common language to talk 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.479 about the experience. The trouble is, you know, when you 0:05:08.520 --> 0:05:10.160 go through that kind of a kind of time, when 0:05:10.200 --> 0:05:14.800 you're imprisoned like that, the language that you use really 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:18.240 isn't understood by people who don't who haven't experienced it themselves. 0:05:18.680 --> 0:05:21.560 It means that we can talk about time behind bars 0:05:21.560 --> 0:05:24.000 and understand each other in a way that is very 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:26.600 very rare, and that's that's quite special. It gives us 0:05:26.920 --> 0:05:27.880 a special bond. 0:05:28.360 --> 0:05:31.520 I would imagine it would help in that regards, and 0:05:31.480 --> 0:05:34.160 then be a fascinating discussion around the dinner table when 0:05:34.200 --> 0:05:36.800 you lot got together too, I would imagine. But how 0:05:37.480 --> 0:05:39.760 ironic you've all ended up at Macquarie University. 0:05:39.920 --> 0:05:41.880 Yeah, yeah, Well, like I said, maybe there's something special 0:05:41.920 --> 0:05:44.560 about Macquarie. Nobody tell Asier. 0:05:44.360 --> 0:05:49.640 Though now your time that we're going to obviously break 0:05:49.680 --> 0:05:52.040 it down what happened to you over in Egypt, But 0:05:52.600 --> 0:05:57.320 I just want to upfront, like I know through your experiences. 0:05:57.800 --> 0:06:01.320 I've read your book and really enjoyed it, and it 0:06:01.400 --> 0:06:04.160 was very open book about the experiences you're going through, 0:06:04.240 --> 0:06:07.680 not just physically but emotionally and every psychologically, everything that 0:06:07.760 --> 0:06:10.599 happens to you in the prison and having you freedom 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.920 taken away. What was the lowest point as you spent 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:15.960 four hundred days there, but was there a low point 0:06:16.000 --> 0:06:16.799 that stands out? 0:06:16.880 --> 0:06:20.040 Yeah? I think the day we were convicted. You know, 0:06:21.200 --> 0:06:25.120 up to that point, we'd always believed that the case 0:06:25.120 --> 0:06:28.440 would go away. When I was arrested, I was convinced 0:06:28.480 --> 0:06:30.560 that someone had screwed up, someone had made a mistake. 0:06:30.600 --> 0:06:34.160 Maybe they'd misread the arrest warrant for Peter Greystone rather 0:06:34.240 --> 0:06:37.880 than Peter grest Or, they'd misinterpreted something that we'd written 0:06:38.240 --> 0:06:43.279 or published, and that with a bit of explanation, maybe 0:06:43.320 --> 0:06:46.279 a few phone calls, the thing would go away. It didn't. 0:06:46.960 --> 0:06:50.080 We thought when the investigators started looking at the prosecutor 0:06:50.160 --> 0:06:52.520 started looking into the case that they'd realized there was 0:06:52.560 --> 0:06:55.479 no substance to any of the allegations and drop the 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:57.640 whole thing. We thought much of the same when we 0:06:57.800 --> 0:06:59.760 started the trial. We thought the judges would chuck it 0:06:59.760 --> 0:07:02.000 out the end of the trial. We thought that it 0:07:02.040 --> 0:07:04.440 was so obvious there was no evidence to convict us, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:06.400 that the whole thing would would have have to be 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:09.160 acquitted and that free. At the very worst, they might 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:12.560 have convicted us of some kind of administratives of fans 0:07:12.560 --> 0:07:15.400 and sentences to six months. We'd already done that time 0:07:15.760 --> 0:07:18.360 at that time and release it's on time served. But 0:07:19.280 --> 0:07:23.080 to then be convicted and sentenced to seven years, that 0:07:23.360 --> 0:07:25.360 was a very very tough day. 0:07:25.920 --> 0:07:28.680 I suppose that's when it became real and that's the 0:07:28.800 --> 0:07:31.960 light that you were hoping or where justice would would come. 0:07:32.320 --> 0:07:35.400 It must also impact on you greatly that you're in 0:07:35.440 --> 0:07:38.640 there knowing that you haven't done anything wrong. So it's 0:07:38.680 --> 0:07:42.600 not just I think there's two ways you could do prison, aka, 0:07:42.680 --> 0:07:44.960 well I've made a mistake and I'm paying my dues. 0:07:45.200 --> 0:07:47.720 But if you're in there and you know you haven't 0:07:47.720 --> 0:07:51.880 done anything wrong, that sense of injustice must either way. 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:54.680 Well, yeah, but there is a third way, and that's 0:07:54.720 --> 0:07:58.280 to use the time that you have behind bars as 0:07:58.320 --> 0:08:01.360 a way of fighting for the greater issue, the greater injustice. 0:08:01.400 --> 0:08:04.920 I mean I didn't. I realized after we were convicted 0:08:04.920 --> 0:08:07.040 that it had nothing to do with anything we've done, 0:08:07.200 --> 0:08:09.560 but everything to do with what we'd come to represent, 0:08:09.600 --> 0:08:12.800 and that was press freedom, okay, And so in framing 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:17.240 our case as an attack on press freedom, we come 0:08:17.280 --> 0:08:20.480 to fight for that principle rather than for our own 0:08:20.680 --> 0:08:23.560 our own selves, and I think that made it much 0:08:23.600 --> 0:08:26.480 more survivable because it gave what we were doing, what 0:08:26.520 --> 0:08:29.640 we were going through a sense of purpose and meaning 0:08:29.680 --> 0:08:31.360 that it wouldn't otherwise never have had. 0:08:31.640 --> 0:08:35.280 Okay, that makes sense, makes sense. Well, look we're going 0:08:35.320 --> 0:08:38.079 to take you, take you back there. I apologize for that, 0:08:38.120 --> 0:08:39.960 but before we do, let's find out a little bit 0:08:39.960 --> 0:08:43.440 about who you are, and so what what's your story? 0:08:43.679 --> 0:08:45.920 Where'd you grow up in your childhood? 0:08:46.559 --> 0:08:51.120 Childhood in Sydney, out the northern suburbs in Waronga, kicking 0:08:51.160 --> 0:08:55.839 around the bushlands of Lancove River National Park. 0:08:56.840 --> 0:08:59.760 Those bush lands very well. I grew up in Epping 0:09:00.040 --> 0:09:02.880 though that spent half my childhood roaming the bush around there. 0:09:03.080 --> 0:09:04.320 I probably threw rocks at. 0:09:05.000 --> 0:09:08.360 Yes, probably did. We probably chased the same snakes as 0:09:08.400 --> 0:09:12.040 well through the bush at various points. So I had 0:09:12.040 --> 0:09:16.440 my childhood in Sydney, you know, pretty idyllic really, as 0:09:16.480 --> 0:09:18.120 a lot of kids do if you're living growing up 0:09:18.120 --> 0:09:20.520 in that kind of environment. We moved to Brisbane when 0:09:20.559 --> 0:09:23.160 I was about twelve thirteen, so I had primary school 0:09:23.200 --> 0:09:25.360 here in Sydney and then high school in the university 0:09:25.360 --> 0:09:32.440 in Brisbane. Yeah, very easy going childhood, really camping and 0:09:32.720 --> 0:09:37.360 falling around, going surfing and enjoying the beach. The countryside 0:09:37.440 --> 0:09:39.360 has a lot of a lot of kids do. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.119 Okay, what was what drew you to journalism? 0:09:43.320 --> 0:09:47.200 I guess it was funny because it was more the 0:09:47.240 --> 0:09:49.880 thing that didn't turn me off than anything that particularly 0:09:49.920 --> 0:09:52.000 drew me to journalism. I remember at the end of 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:56.000 high school I had to I knew I wanted to 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:57.960 study something. I didn't want to go on to the 0:09:58.000 --> 0:10:00.200 workforce at that point, but I had no idea what 0:10:00.280 --> 0:10:02.920 on earth I wanted to study. And there was I 0:10:02.920 --> 0:10:08.440 remember midnight before the university application form was due. It 0:10:08.520 --> 0:10:10.199 was completely blank. I had no idea what I was 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:11.640 going to stick on there, and there was a book 0:10:11.679 --> 0:10:13.400 with all of the courses that you could do in 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.800 the state was called the q TAC Book and the 0:10:16.880 --> 0:10:19.600 queenslan Tertiary Admission Center Book. And I remember thinking, if 0:10:19.600 --> 0:10:20.959 I don't know what I do want to do, let 0:10:20.960 --> 0:10:22.600 me get rid of everything I don't and see if 0:10:22.600 --> 0:10:25.079 I can narrow the field. And I started crossing style. 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.200 I got rid of accounting, No architecture nowhere that was 0:10:29.200 --> 0:10:34.040 my dad's thing, medicine, law, no engineering. I just kept 0:10:34.040 --> 0:10:36.560 crossing and crossing and crossing until the only thing that 0:10:36.640 --> 0:10:40.920 I didn't cross off was journalism. And I figured that's 0:10:41.240 --> 0:10:43.360 that's it. Then that must be the thing to do. 0:10:43.840 --> 0:10:45.000 Follow follow that path. 0:10:45.200 --> 0:10:47.720 Yeah, And so I went overseas. I applied and deferred 0:10:47.720 --> 0:10:50.160 and went overseas as an exchange students South Africa for 0:10:50.160 --> 0:10:53.079 a year. And while I was away that time in 0:10:53.120 --> 0:10:55.920 South Africa, during really what was the height of the 0:10:55.960 --> 0:11:00.120 apartheid years, it really settled in my mind that this 0:11:00.160 --> 0:11:02.120 is what I wanted to do, that was the right 0:11:02.160 --> 0:11:05.240 thing for me, because I think that time in South 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:09.040 Africa really gave me a sense of social justice or 0:11:09.040 --> 0:11:10.920 injustice as I saw it. Then, So what. 0:11:12.480 --> 0:11:13.440 Period of time was that? 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:16.480 So that was when I was about seventeen. 0:11:16.160 --> 0:11:18.960 Okay, so you would have seen the injustice. 0:11:18.440 --> 0:11:21.839 And yeah, yeah, exactly. This was during the This was 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:25.319 before the end of apartheid in nineteen ninety four, when 0:11:25.320 --> 0:11:29.120 Nelson Mandela finally won the first post election of post 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:34.160 apartheid elections. It was in the early nineteen nineteen eighties 0:11:34.280 --> 0:11:38.240 rather so, very much a lot of injustice, a lot 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:43.160 of social turmoil the time, fascinating but also very difficult. 0:11:43.679 --> 0:11:46.079 Do you think that the experience sort of broadened your 0:11:46.200 --> 0:11:47.160 view on life? 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.760 And I think so. I lived with Africanas who were 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:54.520 wonderful people, and I could see and understand who they 0:11:54.559 --> 0:11:56.600 were and where they came from and why they felt 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.439 the way that they did. It gave me a degree 0:11:59.440 --> 0:12:03.520 of empathy and understanding that they weren't necessarily villains, but 0:12:03.559 --> 0:12:07.880 they were also exploiting a system that they benefited from 0:12:08.000 --> 0:12:11.960 hugely and it was fundamentally racist. And so it gave 0:12:12.000 --> 0:12:15.440 me a sense of empathy and understanding that everyone has 0:12:15.800 --> 0:12:19.559 a perspective, everyone has a point of view, but also 0:12:19.600 --> 0:12:23.000 a sense of social justice that I wanted to follow through. 0:12:23.320 --> 0:12:25.920 So one thing to tick the box and say, I 0:12:25.960 --> 0:12:28.520 want to be a journalist and study for it where 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:29.680 did you get your first start? 0:12:29.760 --> 0:12:33.080 And I got my first start at GMV six in Sheperdon, 0:12:33.440 --> 0:12:36.720 in my rural TV station down in northeast. 0:12:36.400 --> 0:12:39.360 Victoria, reporting on cattle sales or yeah. 0:12:39.360 --> 0:12:44.240 Reporting on dairy milk prices and on droughts and on 0:12:44.440 --> 0:12:49.760 farming issues, and local flower shows and school sports competitions, 0:12:49.800 --> 0:12:52.400 all of those sorts of good things. I guess in 0:12:52.440 --> 0:12:54.400 a way, it was the place. And I often tell 0:12:54.400 --> 0:12:56.439 my students there that I learned the skills to be 0:12:56.520 --> 0:12:58.920 a foreign correspondent in that job in Shepperdent. 0:12:59.240 --> 0:13:02.120 Okay, that's interesting that it explained, well. 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:04.800 You had to work very very quickly. You had to 0:13:04.840 --> 0:13:09.040 work across a very large geographical footprint. You had to cover. 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:12.520 You had to figure out how to make really obscure, 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:18.560 odd little stories accessible and interesting to a much wider audience. 0:13:19.120 --> 0:13:22.920 You had to be accurate. You had because I remember, 0:13:22.960 --> 0:13:24.680 I mean, all journalists have to be accurate, of course, 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.920 But the thing about Shepherd was that in most newsrooms, 0:13:27.960 --> 0:13:32.160 and most capital city newsrooms, you're fairly disconnected from the audience. 0:13:32.160 --> 0:13:34.400 It's not going to bump into the person you're You're. 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:36.040 Not going to bump into the person you're reporting on it, 0:13:36.320 --> 0:13:38.880 and you could guarantee in Shepherd and if you've made 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:41.280 some cock up, sooner or later someone would tap you 0:13:41.320 --> 0:13:43.240 on the shoulder and as you're walking down the street 0:13:43.240 --> 0:13:46.400 and say, mate, you know you've mispronounced Uncle Joe's name. 0:13:47.360 --> 0:13:48.960 You got that, You got the age. 0:13:49.160 --> 0:13:51.199 I can see where you be coming from. Its sharpening 0:13:51.280 --> 0:13:53.200 up your sharpening up your skills. 0:13:52.840 --> 0:13:55.800 Sharpening up the skills, teaching you to work independently. You work, 0:13:55.880 --> 0:13:58.360 you know, you're producing a lot of stories across a 0:13:58.440 --> 0:14:00.960 large area. So yeah, I think a lot of the 0:14:01.000 --> 0:14:03.560 basic craft skills I learned out there. 0:14:03.840 --> 0:14:09.720 Okay, now I'm sure BBC didn't pluck you from from there? 0:14:09.840 --> 0:14:11.360 How did you? How did you make your move to 0:14:11.480 --> 0:14:14.280 me working overseas and working as a foreign corres sliment? 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:17.200 From there, I went to Darwin. I was in Darwin 0:14:17.280 --> 0:14:19.200 for a year, again getting a little bit of a 0:14:19.240 --> 0:14:20.560 taste for the adventure. 0:14:20.240 --> 0:14:22.760 Well that would to foreign correspondent. 0:14:23.920 --> 0:14:28.240 And then I got a job in adelaide in covering 0:14:28.640 --> 0:14:31.840 the basically for the ten network, and I was there 0:14:31.880 --> 0:14:34.040 for about three years, and I remember towards the end 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:37.040 of those three years, I started to feel as though 0:14:37.080 --> 0:14:39.240 I was repeating stories time and again. I've been able 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:42.400 to pick up a script that done from twelve months earlier, 0:14:42.480 --> 0:14:45.200 changed the names and the dates pretty much and refile 0:14:45.240 --> 0:14:48.880 it because not much seemed to change. I didn't feel challenged, 0:14:48.920 --> 0:14:50.760 I didn't feel I felt it was sort of rinse. 0:14:50.840 --> 0:14:54.240 I was doing, covering stories on repeat, and I read 0:14:54.480 --> 0:14:57.120 and two things happened. The first was that I read 0:14:57.120 --> 0:14:59.560 a book called One Crowded Hour, which is an extraordinary 0:14:59.560 --> 0:15:03.440 biogra of a guy called Neil Davis, an incredible Australian 0:15:03.480 --> 0:15:08.720 cameraman who covered the Southeast Asia during the late sixties 0:15:08.760 --> 0:15:12.840 and seventies an eighties. He was in Vietnam, he was wounded, 0:15:13.600 --> 0:15:17.400 He saw more combat than almost any soldiers active soldiers. 0:15:17.400 --> 0:15:22.680 He was wounded something like twenty three times. And what 0:15:22.760 --> 0:15:27.280 I saw was an extraordinary professional who was deeply dedicated 0:15:27.320 --> 0:15:30.840 to his craft but was also experiencing was in the 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:36.600 middle of really pivotal moments in history, and also having 0:15:36.920 --> 0:15:41.160 some incredible adventures. And I thought, well, that's actually that's 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:45.200 what I'd love to do. Soon after the ten network 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:48.280 went into receivership. This was in nineteen ninety one, and 0:15:48.400 --> 0:15:51.360 to save money, they closed down the London Bureau, and 0:15:51.400 --> 0:15:53.960 I thought, well, this is ridiculous. He can't have one 0:15:53.960 --> 0:15:57.240 of the main Australian networks without what's going without having 0:15:57.280 --> 0:16:00.320 a London correspondent. So I marched into my bosses office 0:16:00.320 --> 0:16:03.720 and said, listen, if I quit and take myself to London, 0:16:03.760 --> 0:16:07.200 would you use me as a stringer? And he said sure, 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.320 why not. It wasn't going to cost them anything, and 0:16:10.360 --> 0:16:13.720 they had a known entity in London, and so. 0:16:13.600 --> 0:16:16.560 That's what I did, So rolled the dice, really, I. 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:18.880 Guess, so, I mean it didn't feel like that much 0:16:18.880 --> 0:16:21.160 of a role looking back, I suppose it was, but 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:23.640 you know, I had I had, I had some clients, 0:16:23.920 --> 0:16:26.400 you know, the ten network, I had a job to do. 0:16:26.480 --> 0:16:28.920 It was still the journalism that I wanted. It was 0:16:28.960 --> 0:16:31.080 an inroad into a place that was really the hub 0:16:31.080 --> 0:16:37.000 of correspondence of journal of world journalism, and and I 0:16:37.040 --> 0:16:39.200 had the resources, I guess to keep me there for 0:16:39.240 --> 0:16:40.800 about a year, and I figured, well, if it all 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:45.560 goes pear shaped, I'll be back. And it didn't. I 0:16:45.640 --> 0:16:49.600 kind of went from there to to Yugoslavia to Bosnia 0:16:49.640 --> 0:16:50.280 in the war. 0:16:50.440 --> 0:16:55.720 Okay, so like covering in those those areas of conflict 0:16:55.920 --> 0:16:59.640 like Bosnia and different things. Tell us about your first 0:16:59.680 --> 0:17:05.720 expre because you mentioned Neil Davis and yeah, people that correspondence. 0:17:05.960 --> 0:17:08.040 It's a dangerous thing. They're in there where the bombs 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:10.040 are going off and the bullets and bullets are flying. 0:17:10.320 --> 0:17:13.000 What was did you have to test yourself that you 0:17:13.000 --> 0:17:15.520 were comfortable with that environment, because I would imagine some 0:17:15.600 --> 0:17:16.960 people I. 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:20.520 Guess it was a bit of toe dipping. So it 0:17:20.600 --> 0:17:22.880 started with when I met a girl in a pub 0:17:22.920 --> 0:17:27.640 in London, which is where all good start, this flamehead 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.960 Irish girl who was dancing on the table and just 0:17:31.000 --> 0:17:33.879 really having a great time, and I was really I 0:17:33.920 --> 0:17:35.720 was inamateant, and so I thought i'd chatter up and 0:17:37.480 --> 0:17:39.119 started talking to her. She told me that she was 0:17:39.160 --> 0:17:42.840 about to go on this pilgrimage, on a Catholic pilgrimage 0:17:42.840 --> 0:17:45.280 to a place called Magriagori, which was this town, a 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:47.080 village right in the middle of a place of a 0:17:47.119 --> 0:17:49.800 region of Bosnia called hertzig Bosna, which was controlled by 0:17:49.800 --> 0:17:54.720 the Croats, and it had become a place of pilgrimage 0:17:55.040 --> 0:17:59.840 since the nineteen seventies when a group of young Croats 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.520 had seen these visions of the Virgin Mary, and the 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:08.399 place became developed a reputation for medical miracles, for spiritual 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:12.760 insights and so on, and so pilgrim started going and 0:18:12.800 --> 0:18:16.880 they kept going all through the war. And so Kathy Haggerty, 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.359 the girl that I met, was about to go on 0:18:20.359 --> 0:18:22.040 one of these pilgrimages, and I thought it was a 0:18:22.080 --> 0:18:27.080 fascinating story. Anyway, she said, well, why don't you come? 0:18:27.119 --> 0:18:29.520 And I told the story. I didn't take it seriously, 0:18:29.560 --> 0:18:31.120 but I told the story to two friends of mine, 0:18:31.160 --> 0:18:32.800 one who worked for the ABC and the other who 0:18:32.800 --> 0:18:36.760 worked for the Australian, about this girl had invited me 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:38.639 to go on this trip. And within a couple of 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.000 days I got messages from the foreign editors of both saying, 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:42.760 for God's sake, if you're all thinking of going, then 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:44.919 let us know because we're in the market for freelancing. 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:47.399 And I thought, well, it's a no brainer, isn't it. 0:18:47.480 --> 0:18:49.280 You know, I've got the story and the clients, and 0:18:49.280 --> 0:18:54.480 there's the girl. Why wouldn't you go? So I went. 0:18:54.600 --> 0:18:59.119 I did that story, and then I started working at 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:01.040 what I thought was THEES, although I made it to 0:19:01.440 --> 0:19:06.639 Sarajevo for a while, and I found out a couple 0:19:06.640 --> 0:19:10.320 of things. I found out that I actually was reasonably 0:19:10.320 --> 0:19:13.000 good at it. I had the kind of mentality I 0:19:13.040 --> 0:19:16.560 guess that helped me to operate in a place like Bosnia. 0:19:18.160 --> 0:19:20.440 It didn't freak me out. Yeah, the gun via the 0:19:21.160 --> 0:19:25.040 combat didn't freak me out. I was fascinated by the 0:19:25.080 --> 0:19:28.439 people that were operating there. I worked very closely with 0:19:28.480 --> 0:19:31.520 some of the more established correspondents who were able to 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.679 show me how to get around and work and operate 0:19:34.720 --> 0:19:38.920 and survive. I didn't spend I spent a few months 0:19:38.920 --> 0:19:43.360 in the region, but it was enough to again make 0:19:43.440 --> 0:19:46.159 help me understand that actually this was something that I 0:19:46.200 --> 0:19:50.520 thought I was capable of and really kind of interested in. 0:19:50.600 --> 0:19:54.880 Yeah, found the passion. So working as a freelancer at 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:57.920 that stage, at what point did you get with the 0:19:58.000 --> 0:20:01.000 BBC or writers. What was the I had some events. 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:04.159 Yeah, I had another trip to South Africa nineteen ninety 0:20:04.160 --> 0:20:08.040 four to cover the post election post Aparthei had election 0:20:09.160 --> 0:20:12.359 and again for the same clients. And it was after 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.880 that that I started thinking about getting some freelance work 0:20:16.119 --> 0:20:19.680 for BBC World Service. My plan was to just start 0:20:20.080 --> 0:20:23.320 doing some producing work in the office in the newsroom 0:20:23.520 --> 0:20:25.840 in London and then find a place out in the 0:20:25.840 --> 0:20:29.119 field that was undercovered and go and do that. And 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:32.000 so I figured, rather than send my CV and have 0:20:32.080 --> 0:20:35.080 some secretary chuck it in the round file, I'd apply 0:20:35.119 --> 0:20:37.720 for a proper job. The job wasn't important, but it 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:40.520 was the application process that mattered. And that way the 0:20:40.600 --> 0:20:42.400 management would have to look at my CV and think 0:20:42.440 --> 0:20:44.639 of me as a prospective employee. And when I didn't 0:20:44.640 --> 0:20:48.040 get the job, I'd say, thanks, I'm also in the 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:50.840 market for freelancing, how about it. So the first job 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:53.679 that came up a way of approaching Yeah, So the 0:20:53.720 --> 0:20:57.479 first job that came up was the Carble correspondence job, right, okay, 0:20:57.520 --> 0:20:59.760 And I remember looking at it thinking, thank Christ, I'm 0:20:59.800 --> 0:21:03.040 not because Carble at that point was in the middle 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:03.680 of civil war. 0:21:03.720 --> 0:21:06.879 There was a front line that was pre that was 0:21:07.160 --> 0:21:08.320 mid nineties. 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.399 That that wasn't at the end of nineteen ninety. 0:21:10.119 --> 0:21:12.399 Four, okay, So it was yeah, okay. 0:21:12.760 --> 0:21:16.480 There was a front line running. So the Afghanistan was 0:21:16.520 --> 0:21:20.440