1 00:00:01,880 --> 00:00:04,880 Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives. 2 00:00:05,360 --> 00:00:08,039 Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life. The average person is never 3 00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:11,080 Speaker 1: exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop. 4 00:00:11,560 --> 00:00:14,040 Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers. 5 00:00:14,440 --> 00:00:16,200 Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a 6 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:20,560 Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead, 7 00:00:20,600 --> 00:00:23,120 Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated. 8 00:00:23,840 --> 00:00:26,400 Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories 9 00:00:26,440 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw 10 00:00:28,800 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some 11 00:00:31,600 --> 00:00:34,640 Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because 12 00:00:34,640 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged. 13 00:00:38,159 --> 00:00:46,559 Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today, 14 00:00:46,960 --> 00:00:49,600 Speaker 1: I had the pleasure of speaking to award winning foreign 15 00:00:49,600 --> 00:00:54,280 Speaker 1: correspondent Peter Grest, who was wrongfully imprisoned in an Egyptian jail. 16 00:00:55,080 --> 00:00:58,040 Speaker 1: He spent four hundred days locked up in the Cairo prison, 17 00:00:58,560 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 1: whereas forced to survive conditions after he's falsely accused of 18 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,120 Speaker 1: being a terrorist. We talked about his lengthy time behind 19 00:01:06,160 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: bars and how that experience made him reflect on his 20 00:01:09,520 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: own life and discover a strength and resilience he didn't 21 00:01:12,720 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: realize he had. Peter also spoke about his life on 22 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: the road, working as a journalist for the BBC, Reuters 23 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:24,360 Speaker 1: and Al Jazeera in some of the world's most dangerous locations. 24 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:27,800 Speaker 1: In these environments where colleagues have been kidnapped and murdered 25 00:01:28,120 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: just for simply doing their jobs, Peter also spoke about 26 00:01:31,640 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: the importance of freedom of the press and the crucial 27 00:01:34,680 --> 00:01:37,720 Speaker 1: role at plays in world events, a subject he is 28 00:01:37,840 --> 00:01:42,919 Speaker 1: very passionate about. Here is his story, Peter Gresser, Welcome 29 00:01:42,959 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 1: to our catch Killers. 30 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:44,680 Speaker 2: Thanks for having me. 31 00:01:45,080 --> 00:01:47,920 Speaker 1: Well, I've got to say, Peter, I've learned a bit 32 00:01:47,920 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: about you. I knew a bit about you before you 33 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 1: were coming on as a guest. And I've got to 34 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:55,600 Speaker 1: say a career as a foreign correspondent that's about as 35 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: good a job as you can get. I think. What's 36 00:01:59,240 --> 00:01:59,960 Speaker 1: your take on it? 37 00:02:00,080 --> 00:02:02,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, I loved it. I mean the thing that drew 38 00:02:02,800 --> 00:02:05,760 Speaker 2: me into the career was a couple of things. It 39 00:02:05,800 --> 00:02:08,160 Speaker 2: was a license to indulge your curiosity. You know, if 40 00:02:08,160 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 2: there was something that you're interested in, then it meant 41 00:02:11,400 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 2: that you were someone was prepared to pay you to 42 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:16,959 Speaker 2: go and investigate, to stick your nose into someone else's 43 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:20,440 Speaker 2: business to find out. But it was also I guess, 44 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:24,040 Speaker 2: a license to have adventures to some extent. You've got 45 00:02:24,080 --> 00:02:25,520 Speaker 2: to be careful what you wish for. I guess. 46 00:02:25,639 --> 00:02:29,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, Well, I suppose for all the good parts there 47 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:33,520 Speaker 1: was well, the experience you had in Cairo and Egypt. 48 00:02:33,520 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 1: Obviously you don't put that as a high point. But 49 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:40,160 Speaker 1: it's a fascinating job because you get to go to 50 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:43,680 Speaker 1: some of the world's hot spots where everyone's curious about it, 51 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: and you were actually there reporting on the ground. 52 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, and not just I mean the hot spots are 53 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:51,359 Speaker 2: the obvious ones. They're the ones that tend to make 54 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:56,280 Speaker 2: the headlines. But places like Antarctica, or places like you know, 55 00:02:57,400 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: corners of Africa where they're translocating offence, or parts of 56 00:03:03,360 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 2: the Middle East where the extraordinary archaeological excavations that are 57 00:03:08,400 --> 00:03:10,320 Speaker 2: taken place. I mean, all of this stuff is open 58 00:03:10,360 --> 00:03:12,200 Speaker 2: to you as a foreign correspondent. So as long as 59 00:03:12,240 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 2: as I said, as long as you can make a 60 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 2: case for a good story, then you're able to go 61 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:18,880 Speaker 2: and stick your nose in. 62 00:03:19,280 --> 00:03:21,800 Speaker 1: I think it gives you a worldly view, doesn't It's 63 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:24,440 Speaker 1: like we've come back to Australia, but it gives you 64 00:03:24,480 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 1: a more worldly view. 65 00:03:25,840 --> 00:03:28,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, you can't help but not have an understanding of 66 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:33,920 Speaker 2: the globe as a as a fascinating, extraordinary place. I 67 00:03:34,000 --> 00:03:37,000 Speaker 2: miss it terribly, I really do. It became a part 68 00:03:37,040 --> 00:03:39,920 Speaker 2: of my identity and not being able to do that, 69 00:03:39,960 --> 00:03:42,040 Speaker 2: I think is something that was quite tough for me. 70 00:03:42,960 --> 00:03:45,480 Speaker 2: But yeah, it's still very much a part of my DNA. 71 00:03:46,040 --> 00:03:50,680 Speaker 1: Okay, And you're also a member of a very limited 72 00:03:50,760 --> 00:03:55,920 Speaker 1: club of people that have been arrested in foreign grounds 73 00:03:55,960 --> 00:04:00,560 Speaker 1: for a variety of fenss terrorism. For your one, we've 74 00:04:00,600 --> 00:04:06,280 Speaker 1: dealt with Kylie Moore Gilbert and also Sean Turnbell and yeah, 75 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:08,280 Speaker 1: even chain Lay. 76 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:11,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. In fact, we're all together as a part of 77 00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,680 Speaker 2: the Awada group of people who are Australians who have 78 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:19,520 Speaker 2: formerly detained arbitrarily. And Kylie, Sean and myself are all 79 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,680 Speaker 2: coincidentally academics at mcquarie University where we've decided to form 80 00:04:23,720 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: our own little nest of spies and terrorists. 81 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:31,279 Speaker 1: We've had all those guests, all the people we just 82 00:04:31,360 --> 00:04:34,480 Speaker 1: mentioned on the podcast here, and I've been amazed by 83 00:04:34,600 --> 00:04:37,040 Speaker 1: this story, but the amazed how they also came through 84 00:04:37,720 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 1: the experience, but one exclusive club you're a member of. 85 00:04:40,560 --> 00:04:43,599 Speaker 2: Yeah, it is a pretty special club. And I love 86 00:04:43,640 --> 00:04:46,680 Speaker 2: them all. You know, they're all extraordinary people, and I 87 00:04:46,720 --> 00:04:48,680 Speaker 2: guess in a way there's a sort of self selecting 88 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:51,760 Speaker 2: group in that they've come out of it, out of 89 00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:55,880 Speaker 2: their experiences with the determination and strength to do something 90 00:04:56,240 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: with the time that they spent behind bars hasn't killed them. 91 00:05:00,760 --> 00:05:03,760 Speaker 2: It has made them stronger and it's given us all, 92 00:05:03,800 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 2: I think is a kind of common language to talk 93 00:05:06,080 --> 00:05:08,479 Speaker 2: about the experience. The trouble is, you know, when you 94 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 2: go through that kind of a kind of time, when 95 00:05:10,200 --> 00:05:14,800 Speaker 2: you're imprisoned like that, the language that you use really 96 00:05:14,839 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 2: isn't understood by people who don't who haven't experienced it themselves. 97 00:05:18,680 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: It means that we can talk about time behind bars 98 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:24,000 Speaker 2: and understand each other in a way that is very 99 00:05:24,080 --> 00:05:26,600 Speaker 2: very rare, and that's that's quite special. It gives us 100 00:05:26,920 --> 00:05:27,880 Speaker 2: a special bond. 101 00:05:28,360 --> 00:05:31,520 Speaker 1: I would imagine it would help in that regards, and 102 00:05:31,480 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: then be a fascinating discussion around the dinner table when 103 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:36,800 Speaker 1: you lot got together too, I would imagine. But how 104 00:05:37,480 --> 00:05:39,760 Speaker 1: ironic you've all ended up at Macquarie University. 105 00:05:39,920 --> 00:05:41,880 Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, Well, like I said, maybe there's something special 106 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 2: about Macquarie. Nobody tell Asier. 107 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:49,640 Speaker 1: Though now your time that we're going to obviously break 108 00:05:49,680 --> 00:05:52,040 Speaker 1: it down what happened to you over in Egypt, But 109 00:05:52,600 --> 00:05:57,320 Speaker 1: I just want to upfront, like I know through your experiences. 110 00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,320 Speaker 1: I've read your book and really enjoyed it, and it 111 00:06:01,400 --> 00:06:04,160 Speaker 1: was very open book about the experiences you're going through, 112 00:06:04,240 --> 00:06:07,680 Speaker 1: not just physically but emotionally and every psychologically, everything that 113 00:06:07,760 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: happens to you in the prison and having you freedom 114 00:06:10,640 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: taken away. What was the lowest point as you spent 115 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:15,960 Speaker 1: four hundred days there, but was there a low point 116 00:06:16,000 --> 00:06:16,799 Speaker 1: that stands out? 117 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 2: Yeah? I think the day we were convicted. You know, 118 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:25,120 Speaker 2: up to that point, we'd always believed that the case 119 00:06:25,120 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 2: would go away. When I was arrested, I was convinced 120 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,560 Speaker 2: that someone had screwed up, someone had made a mistake. 121 00:06:30,600 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 2: Maybe they'd misread the arrest warrant for Peter Greystone rather 122 00:06:34,240 --> 00:06:37,880 Speaker 2: than Peter grest Or, they'd misinterpreted something that we'd written 123 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:43,279 Speaker 2: or published, and that with a bit of explanation, maybe 124 00:06:43,320 --> 00:06:46,279 Speaker 2: a few phone calls, the thing would go away. It didn't. 125 00:06:46,960 --> 00:06:50,080 Speaker 2: We thought when the investigators started looking at the prosecutor 126 00:06:50,160 --> 00:06:52,520 Speaker 2: started looking into the case that they'd realized there was 127 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:55,479 Speaker 2: no substance to any of the allegations and drop the 128 00:06:55,480 --> 00:06:57,640 Speaker 2: whole thing. We thought much of the same when we 129 00:06:57,800 --> 00:06:59,760 Speaker 2: started the trial. We thought the judges would chuck it 130 00:06:59,760 --> 00:07:02,000 Speaker 2: out the end of the trial. We thought that it 131 00:07:02,040 --> 00:07:04,440 Speaker 2: was so obvious there was no evidence to convict us, 132 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 2: that the whole thing would would have have to be 133 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:09,160 Speaker 2: acquitted and that free. At the very worst, they might 134 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,560 Speaker 2: have convicted us of some kind of administratives of fans 135 00:07:12,560 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 2: and sentences to six months. We'd already done that time 136 00:07:15,760 --> 00:07:18,360 Speaker 2: at that time and release it's on time served. But 137 00:07:19,280 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: to then be convicted and sentenced to seven years, that 138 00:07:23,360 --> 00:07:25,360 Speaker 2: was a very very tough day. 139 00:07:25,920 --> 00:07:28,680 Speaker 1: I suppose that's when it became real and that's the 140 00:07:28,800 --> 00:07:31,960 Speaker 1: light that you were hoping or where justice would would come. 141 00:07:32,320 --> 00:07:35,400 Speaker 1: It must also impact on you greatly that you're in 142 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,640 Speaker 1: there knowing that you haven't done anything wrong. So it's 143 00:07:38,680 --> 00:07:42,600 Speaker 1: not just I think there's two ways you could do prison, aka, 144 00:07:42,680 --> 00:07:44,960 Speaker 1: well I've made a mistake and I'm paying my dues. 145 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 1: But if you're in there and you know you haven't 146 00:07:47,720 --> 00:07:51,880 Speaker 1: done anything wrong, that sense of injustice must either way. 147 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:54,680 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, but there is a third way, and that's 148 00:07:54,720 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 2: to use the time that you have behind bars as 149 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:01,360 Speaker 2: a way of fighting for the greater issue, the greater injustice. 150 00:08:01,400 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 2: I mean I didn't. I realized after we were convicted 151 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:07,040 Speaker 2: that it had nothing to do with anything we've done, 152 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: but everything to do with what we'd come to represent, 153 00:08:09,600 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 2: and that was press freedom, okay, And so in framing 154 00:08:14,320 --> 00:08:17,240 Speaker 2: our case as an attack on press freedom, we come 155 00:08:17,280 --> 00:08:20,480 Speaker 2: to fight for that principle rather than for our own 156 00:08:20,680 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 2: our own selves, and I think that made it much 157 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:26,480 Speaker 2: more survivable because it gave what we were doing, what 158 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:29,640 Speaker 2: we were going through a sense of purpose and meaning 159 00:08:29,680 --> 00:08:31,360 Speaker 2: that it wouldn't otherwise never have had. 160 00:08:31,640 --> 00:08:35,280 Speaker 1: Okay, that makes sense, makes sense. Well, look we're going 161 00:08:35,320 --> 00:08:38,079 Speaker 1: to take you, take you back there. I apologize for that, 162 00:08:38,120 --> 00:08:39,960 Speaker 1: but before we do, let's find out a little bit 163 00:08:39,960 --> 00:08:43,440 Speaker 1: about who you are, and so what what's your story? 164 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,920 Speaker 1: Where'd you grow up in your childhood? 165 00:08:46,559 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: Childhood in Sydney, out the northern suburbs in Waronga, kicking 166 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:55,839 Speaker 2: around the bushlands of Lancove River National Park. 167 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,760 Speaker 1: Those bush lands very well. I grew up in Epping 168 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:02,880 Speaker 1: though that spent half my childhood roaming the bush around there. 169 00:09:03,080 --> 00:09:04,320 Speaker 1: I probably threw rocks at. 170 00:09:05,000 --> 00:09:08,360 Speaker 2: Yes, probably did. We probably chased the same snakes as 171 00:09:08,400 --> 00:09:12,040 Speaker 2: well through the bush at various points. So I had 172 00:09:12,040 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 2: my childhood in Sydney, you know, pretty idyllic really, as 173 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:18,120 Speaker 2: a lot of kids do if you're living growing up 174 00:09:18,120 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 2: in that kind of environment. We moved to Brisbane when 175 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:23,160 Speaker 2: I was about twelve thirteen, so I had primary school 176 00:09:23,200 --> 00:09:25,360 Speaker 2: here in Sydney and then high school in the university 177 00:09:25,360 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 2: in Brisbane. Yeah, very easy going childhood, really camping and 178 00:09:32,720 --> 00:09:37,360 Speaker 2: falling around, going surfing and enjoying the beach. The countryside 179 00:09:37,440 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 2: has a lot of a lot of kids do. 180 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,119 Speaker 1: Okay, what was what drew you to journalism? 181 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 2: I guess it was funny because it was more the 182 00:09:47,240 --> 00:09:49,880 Speaker 2: thing that didn't turn me off than anything that particularly 183 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 2: drew me to journalism. I remember at the end of 184 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:56,000 Speaker 2: high school I had to I knew I wanted to 185 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:57,960 Speaker 2: study something. I didn't want to go on to the 186 00:09:58,000 --> 00:10:00,200 Speaker 2: workforce at that point, but I had no idea what 187 00:10:00,280 --> 00:10:02,920 Speaker 2: on earth I wanted to study. And there was I 188 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 2: remember midnight before the university application form was due. It 189 00:10:08,520 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: was completely blank. I had no idea what I was 190 00:10:10,240 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: going to stick on there, and there was a book 191 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:13,400 Speaker 2: with all of the courses that you could do in 192 00:10:13,440 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 2: the state was called the q TAC Book and the 193 00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:19,600 Speaker 2: queenslan Tertiary Admission Center Book. And I remember thinking, if 194 00:10:19,600 --> 00:10:20,959 Speaker 2: I don't know what I do want to do, let 195 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: me get rid of everything I don't and see if 196 00:10:22,600 --> 00:10:25,079 Speaker 2: I can narrow the field. And I started crossing style. 197 00:10:25,920 --> 00:10:29,200 Speaker 2: I got rid of accounting, No architecture nowhere that was 198 00:10:29,200 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 2: my dad's thing, medicine, law, no engineering. I just kept 199 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:36,560 Speaker 2: crossing and crossing and crossing until the only thing that 200 00:10:36,640 --> 00:10:40,920 Speaker 2: I didn't cross off was journalism. And I figured that's 201 00:10:41,240 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 2: that's it. Then that must be the thing to do. 202 00:10:43,840 --> 00:10:45,000 Speaker 1: Follow follow that path. 203 00:10:45,200 --> 00:10:47,720 Speaker 2: Yeah, And so I went overseas. I applied and deferred 204 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,160 Speaker 2: and went overseas as an exchange students South Africa for 205 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:53,079 Speaker 2: a year. And while I was away that time in 206 00:10:53,120 --> 00:10:55,920 Speaker 2: South Africa, during really what was the height of the 207 00:10:55,960 --> 00:11:00,120 Speaker 2: apartheid years, it really settled in my mind that this 208 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:02,120 Speaker 2: is what I wanted to do, that was the right 209 00:11:02,160 --> 00:11:05,240 Speaker 2: thing for me, because I think that time in South 210 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:09,040 Speaker 2: Africa really gave me a sense of social justice or 211 00:11:09,040 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: injustice as I saw it. Then, So what. 212 00:11:12,480 --> 00:11:13,440 Speaker 1: Period of time was that? 213 00:11:13,920 --> 00:11:16,480 Speaker 2: So that was when I was about seventeen. 214 00:11:16,160 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: Okay, so you would have seen the injustice. 215 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,839 Speaker 2: And yeah, yeah, exactly. This was during the This was 216 00:11:21,880 --> 00:11:25,319 Speaker 2: before the end of apartheid in nineteen ninety four, when 217 00:11:25,320 --> 00:11:29,120 Speaker 2: Nelson Mandela finally won the first post election of post 218 00:11:29,120 --> 00:11:34,160 Speaker 2: apartheid elections. It was in the early nineteen nineteen eighties 219 00:11:34,280 --> 00:11:38,240 Speaker 2: rather so, very much a lot of injustice, a lot 220 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:43,160 Speaker 2: of social turmoil the time, fascinating but also very difficult. 221 00:11:43,679 --> 00:11:46,079 Speaker 1: Do you think that the experience sort of broadened your 222 00:11:46,200 --> 00:11:47,160 Speaker 1: view on life? 223 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,760 Speaker 2: And I think so. I lived with Africanas who were 224 00:11:50,800 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 2: wonderful people, and I could see and understand who they 225 00:11:54,559 --> 00:11:56,600 Speaker 2: were and where they came from and why they felt 226 00:11:56,640 --> 00:11:59,439 Speaker 2: the way that they did. It gave me a degree 227 00:11:59,440 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 2: of empathy and understanding that they weren't necessarily villains, but 228 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:07,880 Speaker 2: they were also exploiting a system that they benefited from 229 00:12:08,000 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 2: hugely and it was fundamentally racist. And so it gave 230 00:12:12,000 --> 00:12:15,440 Speaker 2: me a sense of empathy and understanding that everyone has 231 00:12:15,800 --> 00:12:19,559 Speaker 2: a perspective, everyone has a point of view, but also 232 00:12:19,600 --> 00:12:23,000 Speaker 2: a sense of social justice that I wanted to follow through. 233 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 1: So one thing to tick the box and say, I 234 00:12:25,960 --> 00:12:28,520 Speaker 1: want to be a journalist and study for it where 235 00:12:28,520 --> 00:12:29,680 Speaker 1: did you get your first start? 236 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: And I got my first start at GMV six in Sheperdon, 237 00:12:33,440 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 2: in my rural TV station down in northeast. 238 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:39,360 Speaker 1: Victoria, reporting on cattle sales or yeah. 239 00:12:39,360 --> 00:12:44,240 Speaker 2: Reporting on dairy milk prices and on droughts and on 240 00:12:44,440 --> 00:12:49,760 Speaker 2: farming issues, and local flower shows and school sports competitions, 241 00:12:49,800 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: all of those sorts of good things. I guess in 242 00:12:52,440 --> 00:12:54,400 Speaker 2: a way, it was the place. And I often tell 243 00:12:54,400 --> 00:12:56,439 Speaker 2: my students there that I learned the skills to be 244 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: a foreign correspondent in that job in Shepperdent. 245 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: Okay, that's interesting that it explained, well. 246 00:13:02,240 --> 00:13:04,800 Speaker 2: You had to work very very quickly. You had to 247 00:13:04,840 --> 00:13:09,040 Speaker 2: work across a very large geographical footprint. You had to cover. 248 00:13:09,240 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 2: You had to figure out how to make really obscure, 249 00:13:13,559 --> 00:13:18,560 Speaker 2: odd little stories accessible and interesting to a much wider audience. 250 00:13:19,120 --> 00:13:22,920 Speaker 2: You had to be accurate. You had because I remember, 251 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:24,680 Speaker 2: I mean, all journalists have to be accurate, of course, 252 00:13:24,720 --> 00:13:27,920 Speaker 2: But the thing about Shepherd was that in most newsrooms, 253 00:13:27,960 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 2: and most capital city newsrooms, you're fairly disconnected from the audience. 254 00:13:32,160 --> 00:13:34,400 Speaker 1: It's not going to bump into the person you're You're. 255 00:13:34,320 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 2: Not going to bump into the person you're reporting on it, 256 00:13:36,320 --> 00:13:38,880 Speaker 2: and you could guarantee in Shepherd and if you've made 257 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 2: some cock up, sooner or later someone would tap you 258 00:13:41,320 --> 00:13:43,240 Speaker 2: on the shoulder and as you're walking down the street 259 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 2: and say, mate, you know you've mispronounced Uncle Joe's name. 260 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 2: You got that, You got the age. 261 00:13:49,160 --> 00:13:51,199 Speaker 1: I can see where you be coming from. Its sharpening 262 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:53,200 Speaker 1: up your sharpening up your skills. 263 00:13:52,840 --> 00:13:55,800 Speaker 2: Sharpening up the skills, teaching you to work independently. You work, 264 00:13:55,880 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: you know, you're producing a lot of stories across a 265 00:13:58,440 --> 00:14:00,960 Speaker 2: large area. So yeah, I think a lot of the 266 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 2: basic craft skills I learned out there. 267 00:14:03,840 --> 00:14:09,720 Speaker 1: Okay, now I'm sure BBC didn't pluck you from from there? 268 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:11,360 Speaker 1: How did you? How did you make your move to 269 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,280 Speaker 1: me working overseas and working as a foreign corres sliment? 270 00:14:14,480 --> 00:14:17,200 Speaker 2: From there, I went to Darwin. I was in Darwin 271 00:14:17,280 --> 00:14:19,200 Speaker 2: for a year, again getting a little bit of a 272 00:14:19,240 --> 00:14:20,560 Speaker 2: taste for the adventure. 273 00:14:20,240 --> 00:14:22,760 Speaker 1: Well that would to foreign correspondent. 274 00:14:23,920 --> 00:14:28,240 Speaker 2: And then I got a job in adelaide in covering 275 00:14:28,640 --> 00:14:31,840 Speaker 2: the basically for the ten network, and I was there 276 00:14:31,880 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 2: for about three years, and I remember towards the end 277 00:14:34,040 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 2: of those three years, I started to feel as though 278 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:39,240 Speaker 2: I was repeating stories time and again. I've been able 279 00:14:39,280 --> 00:14:42,400 Speaker 2: to pick up a script that done from twelve months earlier, 280 00:14:42,480 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 2: changed the names and the dates pretty much and refile 281 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,880 Speaker 2: it because not much seemed to change. I didn't feel challenged, 282 00:14:48,920 --> 00:14:50,760 Speaker 2: I didn't feel I felt it was sort of rinse. 283 00:14:50,840 --> 00:14:54,240 Speaker 2: I was doing, covering stories on repeat, and I read 284 00:14:54,480 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 2: and two things happened. The first was that I read 285 00:14:57,120 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 2: a book called One Crowded Hour, which is an extraordinary 286 00:14:59,560 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 2: biogra of a guy called Neil Davis, an incredible Australian 287 00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:08,720 Speaker 2: cameraman who covered the Southeast Asia during the late sixties 288 00:15:08,760 --> 00:15:12,840 Speaker 2: and seventies an eighties. He was in Vietnam, he was wounded, 289 00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,400 Speaker 2: He saw more combat than almost any soldiers active soldiers. 290 00:15:17,400 --> 00:15:22,680 Speaker 2: He was wounded something like twenty three times. And what 291 00:15:22,760 --> 00:15:27,280 Speaker 2: I saw was an extraordinary professional who was deeply dedicated 292 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:30,840 Speaker 2: to his craft but was also experiencing was in the 293 00:15:30,840 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: middle of really pivotal moments in history, and also having 294 00:15:36,920 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: some incredible adventures. And I thought, well, that's actually that's 295 00:15:41,160 --> 00:15:45,200 Speaker 2: what I'd love to do. Soon after the ten network 296 00:15:45,280 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 2: went into receivership. This was in nineteen ninety one, and 297 00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 2: to save money, they closed down the London Bureau, and 298 00:15:51,400 --> 00:15:53,960 Speaker 2: I thought, well, this is ridiculous. He can't have one 299 00:15:53,960 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 2: of the main Australian networks without what's going without having 300 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: a London correspondent. So I marched into my bosses office 301 00:16:00,320 --> 00:16:03,720 Speaker 2: and said, listen, if I quit and take myself to London, 302 00:16:03,760 --> 00:16:07,200 Speaker 2: would you use me as a stringer? And he said sure, 303 00:16:07,480 --> 00:16:10,320 Speaker 2: why not. It wasn't going to cost them anything, and 304 00:16:10,360 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 2: they had a known entity in London, and so. 305 00:16:13,600 --> 00:16:16,560 Speaker 1: That's what I did, So rolled the dice, really, I. 306 00:16:16,480 --> 00:16:18,880 Speaker 2: Guess, so, I mean it didn't feel like that much 307 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,160 Speaker 2: of a role looking back, I suppose it was, but 308 00:16:21,280 --> 00:16:23,640 Speaker 2: you know, I had I had, I had some clients, 309 00:16:23,920 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 2: you know, the ten network, I had a job to do. 310 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:28,920 Speaker 2: It was still the journalism that I wanted. It was 311 00:16:28,960 --> 00:16:31,080 Speaker 2: an inroad into a place that was really the hub 312 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:37,000 Speaker 2: of correspondence of journal of world journalism, and and I 313 00:16:37,040 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 2: had the resources, I guess to keep me there for 314 00:16:39,240 --> 00:16:40,800 Speaker 2: about a year, and I figured, well, if it all 315 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:45,560 Speaker 2: goes pear shaped, I'll be back. And it didn't. I 316 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:49,600 Speaker 2: kind of went from there to to Yugoslavia to Bosnia 317 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:50,280 Speaker 2: in the war. 318 00:16:50,440 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 1: Okay, so like covering in those those areas of conflict 319 00:16:55,920 --> 00:16:59,640 Speaker 1: like Bosnia and different things. Tell us about your first 320 00:16:59,680 --> 00:17:05,720 Speaker 1: expre because you mentioned Neil Davis and yeah, people that correspondence. 321 00:17:05,960 --> 00:17:08,040 Speaker 1: It's a dangerous thing. They're in there where the bombs 322 00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,040 Speaker 1: are going off and the bullets and bullets are flying. 323 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:13,000 Speaker 1: What was did you have to test yourself that you 324 00:17:13,000 --> 00:17:15,520 Speaker 1: were comfortable with that environment, because I would imagine some 325 00:17:15,600 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: people I. 326 00:17:16,880 --> 00:17:20,520 Speaker 2: Guess it was a bit of toe dipping. So it 327 00:17:20,600 --> 00:17:22,880 Speaker 2: started with when I met a girl in a pub 328 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,640 Speaker 2: in London, which is where all good start, this flamehead 329 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,960 Speaker 2: Irish girl who was dancing on the table and just 330 00:17:31,000 --> 00:17:33,879 Speaker 2: really having a great time, and I was really I 331 00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:35,720 Speaker 2: was inamateant, and so I thought i'd chatter up and 332 00:17:37,480 --> 00:17:39,119 Speaker 2: started talking to her. She told me that she was 333 00:17:39,160 --> 00:17:42,840 Speaker 2: about to go on this pilgrimage, on a Catholic pilgrimage 334 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:45,280 Speaker 2: to a place called Magriagori, which was this town, a 335 00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:47,080 Speaker 2: village right in the middle of a place of a 336 00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 2: region of Bosnia called hertzig Bosna, which was controlled by 337 00:17:49,800 --> 00:17:54,720 Speaker 2: the Croats, and it had become a place of pilgrimage 338 00:17:55,040 --> 00:17:59,840 Speaker 2: since the nineteen seventies when a group of young Croats 339 00:18:00,640 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 2: had seen these visions of the Virgin Mary, and the 340 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:08,399 Speaker 2: place became developed a reputation for medical miracles, for spiritual 341 00:18:08,400 --> 00:18:12,760 Speaker 2: insights and so on, and so pilgrim started going and 342 00:18:12,800 --> 00:18:16,880 Speaker 2: they kept going all through the war. And so Kathy Haggerty, 343 00:18:17,160 --> 00:18:20,359 Speaker 2: the girl that I met, was about to go on 344 00:18:20,359 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 2: one of these pilgrimages, and I thought it was a 345 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 2: fascinating story. Anyway, she said, well, why don't you come? 346 00:18:27,119 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: And I told the story. I didn't take it seriously, 347 00:18:29,560 --> 00:18:31,120 Speaker 2: but I told the story to two friends of mine, 348 00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:32,800 Speaker 2: one who worked for the ABC and the other who 349 00:18:32,800 --> 00:18:36,760 Speaker 2: worked for the Australian, about this girl had invited me 350 00:18:36,800 --> 00:18:38,639 Speaker 2: to go on this trip. And within a couple of 351 00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,000 Speaker 2: days I got messages from the foreign editors of both saying, 352 00:18:41,000 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 2: for God's sake, if you're all thinking of going, then 353 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:44,919 Speaker 2: let us know because we're in the market for freelancing. 354 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,399 Speaker 2: And I thought, well, it's a no brainer, isn't it. 355 00:18:47,480 --> 00:18:49,280 Speaker 2: You know, I've got the story and the clients, and 356 00:18:49,280 --> 00:18:54,480 Speaker 2: there's the girl. Why wouldn't you go? So I went. 357 00:18:54,600 --> 00:18:59,119 Speaker 2: I did that story, and then I started working at 358 00:18:59,160 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 2: what I thought was THEES, although I made it to 359 00:19:01,440 --> 00:19:06,639 Speaker 2: Sarajevo for a while, and I found out a couple 360 00:19:06,640 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 2: of things. I found out that I actually was reasonably 361 00:19:10,320 --> 00:19:13,000 Speaker 2: good at it. I had the kind of mentality I 362 00:19:13,040 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 2: guess that helped me to operate in a place like Bosnia. 363 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:20,440 Speaker 2: It didn't freak me out. Yeah, the gun via the 364 00:19:21,160 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 2: combat didn't freak me out. I was fascinated by the 365 00:19:25,080 --> 00:19:28,439 Speaker 2: people that were operating there. I worked very closely with 366 00:19:28,480 --> 00:19:31,520 Speaker 2: some of the more established correspondents who were able to 367 00:19:31,520 --> 00:19:34,679 Speaker 2: show me how to get around and work and operate 368 00:19:34,720 --> 00:19:38,920 Speaker 2: and survive. I didn't spend I spent a few months 369 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:43,360 Speaker 2: in the region, but it was enough to again make 370 00:19:43,440 --> 00:19:46,159 Speaker 2: help me understand that actually this was something that I 371 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 2: thought I was capable of and really kind of interested in. 372 00:19:50,600 --> 00:19:54,880 Speaker 1: Yeah, found the passion. So working as a freelancer at 373 00:19:54,960 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: that stage, at what point did you get with the 374 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,000 Speaker 1: BBC or writers. What was the I had some events. 375 00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:04,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, I had another trip to South Africa nineteen ninety 376 00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:08,040 Speaker 2: four to cover the post election post Aparthei had election 377 00:20:09,160 --> 00:20:12,359 Speaker 2: and again for the same clients. And it was after 378 00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,880 Speaker 2: that that I started thinking about getting some freelance work 379 00:20:16,119 --> 00:20:19,680 Speaker 2: for BBC World Service. My plan was to just start 380 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 2: doing some producing work in the office in the newsroom 381 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:25,840 Speaker 2: in London and then find a place out in the 382 00:20:25,840 --> 00:20:29,119 Speaker 2: field that was undercovered and go and do that. And 383 00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:32,000 Speaker 2: so I figured, rather than send my CV and have 384 00:20:32,080 --> 00:20:35,080 Speaker 2: some secretary chuck it in the round file, I'd apply 385 00:20:35,119 --> 00:20:37,720 Speaker 2: for a proper job. The job wasn't important, but it 386 00:20:37,760 --> 00:20:40,520 Speaker 2: was the application process that mattered. And that way the 387 00:20:40,600 --> 00:20:42,400 Speaker 2: management would have to look at my CV and think 388 00:20:42,440 --> 00:20:44,639 Speaker 2: of me as a prospective employee. And when I didn't 389 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 2: get the job, I'd say, thanks, I'm also in the 390 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,840 Speaker 2: market for freelancing, how about it. So the first job 391 00:20:50,880 --> 00:20:53,679 Speaker 2: that came up a way of approaching Yeah, So the 392 00:20:53,720 --> 00:20:57,479 Speaker 2: first job that came up was the Carble correspondence job, right, okay, 393 00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,760 Speaker 2: And I remember looking at it thinking, thank Christ, I'm 394 00:20:59,800 --> 00:21:03,040 Speaker 2: not because Carble at that point was in the middle 395 00:21:03,080 --> 00:21:03,680 Speaker 2: of civil war. 396 00:21:03,720 --> 00:21:06,879 Speaker 1: There was a front line that was pre that was 397 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:08,320 Speaker 1: mid nineties. 398 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:10,399 Speaker 2: That that wasn't at the end of nineteen ninety. 399 00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: Four, okay, So it was yeah, okay. 400 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:16,480 Speaker 2: There was a front line running. So the Afghanistan was 401 00:21:16,520 --> 00:21:20,440 Speaker 2: being torn apart in the civil war between rival militias 402 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,600 Speaker 2: rather hideen factions with a front line running right through 403 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:29,639 Speaker 2: the guts of Carble. The Taliban had just emerged. They 404 00:21:29,840 --> 00:21:32,360 Speaker 2: just started to form in Kandahar and the far south 405 00:21:32,400 --> 00:21:34,240 Speaker 2: of the country, but they hadn't really spread out of 406 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 2: there to threaten the rest of the country at that point, 407 00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:40,840 Speaker 2: and so it was a pretty wild, wild time in Carbo. 408 00:21:40,840 --> 00:21:42,960 Speaker 2: In fact, there are a few correspondents who'd spent a 409 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,040 Speaker 2: lot of time both in Carble and in in Sarajevo 410 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:48,199 Speaker 2: who judged that Carble was by far and away the 411 00:21:48,240 --> 00:21:51,720 Speaker 2: more dangerous of the two places. So anyway, I remember 412 00:21:51,840 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: applying for it and thinking, Thank Christ, I'm not going 413 00:21:54,000 --> 00:21:56,920 Speaker 2: to get this thing, and then they offered me the job. 414 00:22:00,119 --> 00:22:01,119 Speaker 1: Might get what you wish for. 415 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:05,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, you need to be careful about that. I was 416 00:22:05,240 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 2: kind of flawed and also actually quite scared, but also 417 00:22:10,040 --> 00:22:12,600 Speaker 2: felt there is no way, no way that I could 418 00:22:12,640 --> 00:22:15,119 Speaker 2: turn this down, pass it down. Yeah, I had to 419 00:22:15,160 --> 00:22:15,760 Speaker 2: go and do it. 420 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,440 Speaker 1: What do you We've talked about you going into the 421 00:22:20,480 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 1: wall zones or conflict theres. What do you see the 422 00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,480 Speaker 1: role of media in these conflict areas. 423 00:22:25,760 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 2: So there are a whole bunch of them. There is 424 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 2: the classic idea of being of writing the first draft 425 00:22:32,520 --> 00:22:36,280 Speaker 2: of history of being a witness. At the time, there 426 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:41,320 Speaker 2: were only three foreign correspondents permanently based in Carble. There 427 00:22:41,359 --> 00:22:46,119 Speaker 2: was myself for the BBC Reuter's stringer. There was another 428 00:22:46,359 --> 00:22:48,800 Speaker 2: a guy who was a staffer for Asian France Press, 429 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:51,359 Speaker 2: the big French news agency, and there was a third 430 00:22:51,359 --> 00:22:54,600 Speaker 2: guy called Tim Johnston who worked for Voice of America 431 00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:57,000 Speaker 2: and Associated Press, and a bunch of other strings as well. 432 00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:02,480 Speaker 2: And we recognized that the three of us really controlled 433 00:23:02,480 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 2: the world's understanding of Afghanistan and it was a pretty 434 00:23:05,119 --> 00:23:11,040 Speaker 2: heavy responsibility. We'd cover some aspect to some human rights abuses. 435 00:23:11,359 --> 00:23:14,359 Speaker 2: I remember covering a story of a mass grave that 436 00:23:14,680 --> 00:23:19,639 Speaker 2: some people had uncovered, and a few months later my 437 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,040 Speaker 2: report appeared pretty much for Bartum in a UN Human 438 00:23:23,119 --> 00:23:29,879 Speaker 2: Rights Council inquiry into Afghanistan. So you realize that the 439 00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 2: reports that we were doing at that point were having 440 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:36,640 Speaker 2: a very very direct impact on the public's response to Afghanistan, 441 00:23:36,640 --> 00:23:39,480 Speaker 2: and I think that was a heavy responsibility. There's also 442 00:23:40,240 --> 00:23:44,040 Speaker 2: I think it's a bit of a cliche giving voice 443 00:23:44,080 --> 00:23:46,520 Speaker 2: to the voiceless, but there is actually truth to that. 444 00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:51,720 Speaker 2: I remember a lot of the Afghans ordinary Afghans, and 445 00:23:52,200 --> 00:23:55,000 Speaker 2: that includes some of the Afghan fighters, the militiamen which 446 00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 2: it can come to find on the front lines. They 447 00:23:58,040 --> 00:24:03,320 Speaker 2: were actually grateful to someone from outside, a journalist who 448 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:05,800 Speaker 2: actually gave a damn about what they were doing, that 449 00:24:05,960 --> 00:24:07,920 Speaker 2: was prepared to list sit down and listen to them, 450 00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 2: talk to them, hear their stories, and in hearing their 451 00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,280 Speaker 2: stories and telling their stories, you're giving meaning and significance 452 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:17,840 Speaker 2: to their experience, and that I think is an important 453 00:24:17,840 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 2: thing to do. 454 00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: In important role role in it. Because I know and 455 00:24:21,520 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: I want to speak in more detail later on about 456 00:24:26,240 --> 00:24:30,240 Speaker 1: your concerns where media is suppressed and it's not being 457 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 1: reported objectively, like the War on Terror and different things, 458 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,960 Speaker 1: weapons of mass destructions issues, issues like that. But from 459 00:24:38,960 --> 00:24:42,520 Speaker 1: your personal point of view, you saw a specific role 460 00:24:42,640 --> 00:24:45,800 Speaker 1: and an important role that you had had in those environments. 461 00:24:46,080 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, you know, it's it was one of those 462 00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: rare moments where as I said, I felt that the 463 00:24:54,280 --> 00:24:58,560 Speaker 2: reporting we were doing actually did have an impact both 464 00:24:58,600 --> 00:25:04,280 Speaker 2: internally and externally, and I felt that that idea of 465 00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:08,879 Speaker 2: the first draft of history, accurate accounting of what was 466 00:25:08,920 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: taking place as a record was really was really crucial. 467 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:19,040 Speaker 1: You said that the people on the ground appreciated people 468 00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,520 Speaker 1: giving an objective view of what was going on. Me 469 00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:28,240 Speaker 1: But later at certain stages and certainly now media journalists 470 00:25:28,280 --> 00:25:32,920 Speaker 1: in those environments have been targeted because they've upset someone, 471 00:25:33,040 --> 00:25:35,400 Speaker 1: or that they're seen not to be objective, or they're 472 00:25:35,440 --> 00:25:38,880 Speaker 1: on one side or the other. What's your what's your 473 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 1: experience with that? And so under a take on. 474 00:25:41,160 --> 00:25:44,159 Speaker 2: That, So I think back in let's let's it's a 475 00:25:44,160 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 2: really interesting thought that because things haven't always been the 476 00:25:48,240 --> 00:25:50,119 Speaker 2: way that you've just described. But let's go back to 477 00:25:50,200 --> 00:25:53,720 Speaker 2: nineteen ninety five, pre nine to eleven, we crossed the 478 00:25:53,760 --> 00:25:56,960 Speaker 2: front lanes all the time, and it was in nineteen 479 00:25:57,000 --> 00:26:00,000 Speaker 2: ninety five that the Talibhan came through and in fact 480 00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 2: started laying siege to Carble. Now I would cross the 481 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,720 Speaker 2: front lines whenever I could. Often the front lines would stabilize, 482 00:26:07,760 --> 00:26:09,439 Speaker 2: things would settle down, and you'd end up with a 483 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 2: few civilian traders so tentatively making their way across the lines. 484 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 1: So from one opposing force to the other closing force. 485 00:26:17,800 --> 00:26:20,159 Speaker 2: Yeah, with impunity, we were able to do it. And 486 00:26:20,200 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 2: part of that was because I felt that I not 487 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,959 Speaker 2: only did I have a response a professional ethical responsibility 488 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,280 Speaker 2: to do that, to make sure that we covered all 489 00:26:28,320 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 2: of the parties, all of the side to the conflict, 490 00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:32,439 Speaker 2: but also I thought it was a matter of my 491 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:34,720 Speaker 2: own safety. I wanted because I knew it was a 492 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 2: clean shaven white guy operating in a country full of hairy, 493 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,840 Speaker 2: brown skin gloves standing there, I'd stand out. Sooner or later, 494 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:42,880 Speaker 2: someone on the other side of the front lines would 495 00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:45,240 Speaker 2: pick me out in their rifle sights, and I didn't 496 00:26:45,280 --> 00:26:47,600 Speaker 2: want them to feel justified in pulling the trigger. I 497 00:26:47,640 --> 00:26:49,960 Speaker 2: didn't want them to see me as as a voice 498 00:26:49,960 --> 00:26:53,879 Speaker 2: for the enemy, and so it was important for me 499 00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:56,199 Speaker 2: to be seen to be crossing the lines, to be 500 00:26:56,280 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: seen to be talking to everyone, to exercise that neutrality 501 00:26:59,160 --> 00:27:04,000 Speaker 2: and independence. But what happened with nine to eleven was 502 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:08,560 Speaker 2: that it created a war of ISAMs, a war of ideas. 503 00:27:08,640 --> 00:27:12,520 Speaker 2: The War on Terror became a war over ideas, and 504 00:27:13,119 --> 00:27:15,960 Speaker 2: that was a fundamental shift in the nature of conflict. 505 00:27:16,800 --> 00:27:18,520 Speaker 2: A lot of in most of the pre nine to 506 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,840 Speaker 2: eleven conflicts, there wars other stuff of the land or ethnicity, 507 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:28,359 Speaker 2: political power, that kind of thing. But the War on 508 00:27:28,480 --> 00:27:30,560 Speaker 2: Terror created a war of ideas, and in that war 509 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:33,560 Speaker 2: of ideas, the space where ideas are transmitted, in other words, 510 00:27:33,600 --> 00:27:36,560 Speaker 2: the media quite literally becomes a part of the battlefield. 511 00:27:37,080 --> 00:27:40,080 Speaker 2: So journalists to target it because of the way in 512 00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 2: which they're suddenly seen as agents of ideas that various 513 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:48,400 Speaker 2: governments are hostile to. Now, if we go fast forward 514 00:27:48,440 --> 00:27:50,720 Speaker 2: to nine to eleven and post nine to eleven, the 515 00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 2: war in Afghanistan suddenly crossing the lines was a hostile act. 516 00:27:56,600 --> 00:27:59,360 Speaker 2: Al Jazeera got the first interview with the one person 517 00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 2: who had weighed that pretty much every journalist would have 518 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:03,040 Speaker 2: given their right arm for, and that was with the 519 00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:06,639 Speaker 2: sum had been loud Now, again, I don't agree with 520 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:09,920 Speaker 2: the Summer Bin Loudin's ideology, but I think I would 521 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:12,240 Speaker 2: argue that it's important for us to hear from him, 522 00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:15,360 Speaker 2: to have his have an interview with him, to understand 523 00:28:15,480 --> 00:28:18,320 Speaker 2: his ideology, to understand where he's coming from, so that 524 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:22,119 Speaker 2: we can tackle that from a place of knowledge and understanding. 525 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 2: Ignorance doesn't help anybody. And yet Al Jazeera was condemned 526 00:28:27,680 --> 00:28:30,280 Speaker 2: and the US dropped a bomb on Al Jazeera's bureau 527 00:28:30,359 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 2: and Carble for advocating what a terrorist ideology. 528 00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:39,040 Speaker 1: Well, and I think it started after September eleventh with 529 00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:43,200 Speaker 1: President Bush came out with his statement, I think you're 530 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: even with us, or you're with the terrorists, which. 531 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:49,000 Speaker 2: Is exactly which exactly, and that made it a binary choice. Yeah. Yeah, 532 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,080 Speaker 2: you're either on one side of this line or the other. 533 00:28:51,120 --> 00:28:53,720 Speaker 2: And if you if you if you go and stick 534 00:28:53,720 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 2: a microphone under someone knows who we considered to be 535 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,600 Speaker 2: a terrorist, then you're with them. Yeah, and therefore you're 536 00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,600 Speaker 2: against us. And I think that's a very very dangerous concept. 537 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: And if you're happy to talk about it, one of 538 00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:14,520 Speaker 1: your friends in Somalia was targeted and yeah, murdered and 539 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,480 Speaker 1: reasonable to suggest that targeted because of the role that 540 00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: she had as a journalist. Do you want to talk 541 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,040 Speaker 1: us through that? Yeah, that's deeply personal for you. 542 00:29:23,640 --> 00:29:28,520 Speaker 2: It's a very very difficult time for me. But yes, 543 00:29:28,560 --> 00:29:31,240 Speaker 2: I mean, I think what happened to Kate Payton, my producer, 544 00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:36,040 Speaker 2: is exactly an example of the kind of threats that 545 00:29:36,160 --> 00:29:38,520 Speaker 2: journals were facing in that post nine to eleven world. 546 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:46,080 Speaker 2: So Kate and I were working together covering Somalia, which 547 00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:49,240 Speaker 2: was really a byword for anarchy at that point. This 548 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:53,400 Speaker 2: is in two thousand and five. The government had been 549 00:29:54,320 --> 00:29:56,480 Speaker 2: such as it was, had been in exile in Nairoba 550 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:00,880 Speaker 2: for many many years, and Somalia, like Afghanistan before, was 551 00:30:00,960 --> 00:30:05,520 Speaker 2: being torn apart by rival clan militias, but things that 552 00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:08,520 Speaker 2: stabilized to the point where the government was considering going 553 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 2: back to Mogot Issue to reclaim its seat of government, 554 00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 2: and so we felt that it was important to produce 555 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:18,520 Speaker 2: a series of features that would help our audience understand 556 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:25,240 Speaker 2: what Somalia had become. We thought we were that we 557 00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 2: knew it was dangerous. We went in with eight armed 558 00:30:30,440 --> 00:30:33,160 Speaker 2: bodyguards and a technical with a fifty calival machine gun 559 00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:36,240 Speaker 2: mounted on the back. We had battlefield first aid kits, 560 00:30:36,280 --> 00:30:38,840 Speaker 2: we had battlefield body armor, what was necessary to get 561 00:30:38,880 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 2: the round what we felt was necessary. But at the 562 00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 2: same time we knew that westerners aid workers had not 563 00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:50,480 Speaker 2: been targeted up to for almost ten years, and that 564 00:30:50,600 --> 00:30:53,120 Speaker 2: we felt that our understanding, all the intelligence that we 565 00:30:53,240 --> 00:30:57,640 Speaker 2: had was that foreigners weren't participants in this conflict, that 566 00:30:57,680 --> 00:31:01,720 Speaker 2: it was a battle between clan militias rather outsiders. But 567 00:31:01,840 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 2: at the time a group had emerged called the Islamic 568 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:09,920 Speaker 2: Courts Union, and they'd started making very hostile noises, very 569 00:31:09,920 --> 00:31:15,640 Speaker 2: anti West noises. We just arrived in Mogot Issue and 570 00:31:17,080 --> 00:31:20,560 Speaker 2: we had a free afternoon. We went to we got 571 00:31:20,640 --> 00:31:23,120 Speaker 2: some briefings from some other journalists who'd been who had 572 00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:27,720 Speaker 2: also been there to cover the arrival of a government 573 00:31:27,760 --> 00:31:30,720 Speaker 2: delegation that had just come to try and work out 574 00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:33,680 Speaker 2: how to set up the logistics for the full government's return. 575 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: And so we thought, we'll just go around to visit 576 00:31:36,560 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 2: their hotel and see what they're what's happening there, and 577 00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 2: see if there's anyone to talk to. We went to 578 00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:44,959 Speaker 2: the hotel. We couldn't park inside the compound. We're you're 579 00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,320 Speaker 2: supposed to park off the street, but the whole street 580 00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:53,720 Speaker 2: was filled with bodyguards and government and technicals and so on, 581 00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 2: including our bodyguards, and so we thought, look that it's 582 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,200 Speaker 2: reasonably safe parked right outside the gate. It was literally 583 00:31:59,280 --> 00:32:03,240 Speaker 2: only about ten fifteen meters into the compound. So he 584 00:32:03,320 --> 00:32:07,200 Speaker 2: walked in, had a few meetings, chatted. There wasn't anyone 585 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:11,200 Speaker 2: really worthwhile talking to, so we decided to go and 586 00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:13,520 Speaker 2: as we walked out, I stood on the curb side 587 00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:16,320 Speaker 2: of the car and Kate walked around to the street side. 588 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,320 Speaker 2: We called for the driver to open up and our 589 00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:25,920 Speaker 2: bodyguards to mount up, and as we were waiting, there 590 00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:30,920 Speaker 2: was a single crack. Everyone dropped to the dropped to 591 00:32:30,960 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 2: the to the deck. There was a bit of shouting, 592 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: some gunning of engines and so on. I thought it 593 00:32:36,760 --> 00:32:39,000 Speaker 2: was a bit odd. I didn't know where the shot 594 00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:40,680 Speaker 2: had came from had come from, but there was no 595 00:32:40,800 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 2: other gunfire. So I stood up and saw Kate slumped 596 00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:46,440 Speaker 2: across the back of the vehicle, and I went round 597 00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:48,080 Speaker 2: to her, and as I did, she put her head 598 00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,040 Speaker 2: against my chest and I rubbed her back and just 599 00:32:50,120 --> 00:32:51,680 Speaker 2: to say that it's okay. It was just you know, 600 00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: I know, you've got a fright. I didn't realize you'd 601 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:57,440 Speaker 2: been hit until my hand came up with blood, and 602 00:32:57,560 --> 00:33:04,040 Speaker 2: so we rushed at the hospital and she went into surgery, 603 00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: but she never survived that. She didn't make it out that. 604 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: I can only imagine what she went through, but what 605 00:33:11,880 --> 00:33:14,920 Speaker 1: you went through it in doing your job. 606 00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:20,720 Speaker 2: It was an incredibly tough thing to experience. But we 607 00:33:20,880 --> 00:33:26,040 Speaker 2: also realized I learned later that we as far as 608 00:33:26,120 --> 00:33:30,280 Speaker 2: we can tell, it was a case of mistake and 609 00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:36,080 Speaker 2: identity in that another journalist, a female reporter, and the 610 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,760 Speaker 2: mouth cameraman a photographer, had interviewed the head of the 611 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,800 Speaker 2: Islamic Courts Union and one of his aides, who was 612 00:33:43,800 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 2: a particularly hardcore radical guy, was offended by the interview 613 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:54,640 Speaker 2: and ordered a hit on her. They left without incident, 614 00:33:55,560 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 2: But it seems likely that we were targeted, or that 615 00:34:01,640 --> 00:34:04,920 Speaker 2: the order went out to target a white female journalist 616 00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:09,520 Speaker 2: and a male companion, and we fitted that description. So 617 00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:12,840 Speaker 2: it was it seems a targeted hit on a journalist 618 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 2: for the work that they were doing. It's just that 619 00:34:14,600 --> 00:34:15,640 Speaker 2: it wasn't supposed to be us. 620 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:18,719 Speaker 1: When you've been involved in an incident like that, did 621 00:34:18,760 --> 00:34:21,680 Speaker 1: that make you question whether this is what you want 622 00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:21,920 Speaker 1: to do? 623 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 2: No, it made me more bloody minded about Look I questioned, 624 00:34:30,120 --> 00:34:34,080 Speaker 2: I suppose I questioned my own, our own decision making. 625 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 2: I questioned the processes that we went through, but I 626 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 2: never really questioned the value of the importance of what 627 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:50,080 Speaker 2: we were doing. We knew that it was dangerous. Neither 628 00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,000 Speaker 2: of us were naive. We both worked in combat zones, 629 00:34:53,040 --> 00:34:55,280 Speaker 2: and conflict zones were as I said, we were carrying 630 00:34:55,800 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: all of the equipment that you'd need to deal with 631 00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:02,480 Speaker 2: the hostile environment like that. We weren't. We weren't naive, 632 00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:07,040 Speaker 2: and we both lost colleagues, so we knew it was dank. 633 00:35:07,239 --> 00:35:12,360 Speaker 1: So that that was when I say, accepted understood consequences. 634 00:35:11,719 --> 00:35:17,680 Speaker 2: Of Yeah, it was understood. Now, this is not in 635 00:35:17,760 --> 00:35:21,239 Speaker 2: any way to diminish what happened to Kate or the 636 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:25,040 Speaker 2: impact that it had on me. But I also felt 637 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:26,800 Speaker 2: I felt like, screw you. 638 00:35:27,520 --> 00:35:28,360 Speaker 1: Yeah, you know you. 639 00:35:28,600 --> 00:35:31,759 Speaker 2: You you can't. You can't shut us down. You will 640 00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 2: not silence us. And that's why I went back five 641 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,680 Speaker 2: years later to do another film about Somalia, about the 642 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,279 Speaker 2: crisis in Somalia, that also covered what had happened to Kate. 643 00:35:41,680 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 1: Okay, Kate's one example, There's been many. Another one that 644 00:35:46,560 --> 00:35:50,400 Speaker 1: there was no ifs or butts about it was James Foley, 645 00:35:51,400 --> 00:35:55,400 Speaker 1: a journalist that was abducted and ended up held hostage, 646 00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,279 Speaker 1: and it was clear who's a journalist that was known 647 00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:03,480 Speaker 1: and he was to capitate it. That is obviously saying well, 648 00:36:03,600 --> 00:36:05,520 Speaker 1: this is what we're going to do this And what 649 00:36:06,200 --> 00:36:09,800 Speaker 1: with a situation happened to James? What did that do 650 00:36:10,000 --> 00:36:13,560 Speaker 1: to the broader community of war correspondence. 651 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:17,160 Speaker 2: I think I think it's it's said very very clearly 652 00:36:17,760 --> 00:36:24,920 Speaker 2: that Islamists or were journalists as the enemy. What James 653 00:36:25,080 --> 00:36:28,960 Speaker 2: was doing was trying to understand what was happening in 654 00:36:29,360 --> 00:36:34,120 Speaker 2: Islamic state controlled areas of Syria and Islamic state would 655 00:36:34,160 --> 00:36:38,560 Speaker 2: brook no nobody that that questioned or challenged the ideology 656 00:36:39,160 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 2: that they were perpetuating, that they were that they were 657 00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:46,160 Speaker 2: using to exercise control over their areas. And that's that's 658 00:36:46,440 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 2: the fundamental point here, Garry. It's it's the way in 659 00:36:49,480 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 2: which both governments and Islamist extremists have come to regard 660 00:36:55,600 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 2: journalism as the enemy they've come to regard in this 661 00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:04,560 Speaker 2: back of ideas. The people that interrogate ideas, that transmit ideas, 662 00:37:04,600 --> 00:37:08,160 Speaker 2: that try to understand ideas, those are the people that 663 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:11,120 Speaker 2: we need to get rid of. And as I said, 664 00:37:11,160 --> 00:37:15,000 Speaker 2: it's not just it's not just those extremists. Governments the 665 00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:16,480 Speaker 2: world come to you. 666 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:20,239 Speaker 1: I'm delving into this because in part it plays a 667 00:37:20,360 --> 00:37:22,719 Speaker 1: role in what happened to you with your imprisonment. That 668 00:37:23,120 --> 00:37:26,480 Speaker 1: might be from a regime or the terrorist group or whatever, 669 00:37:26,760 --> 00:37:28,440 Speaker 1: but it was from a government body. 670 00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:28,680 Speaker 2: Yeah. 671 00:37:28,719 --> 00:37:32,359 Speaker 1: Absolutely, And so if you're looking at it, we can't 672 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:35,640 Speaker 1: say it's a one way straight that works both ways. 673 00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 1: Our Jazeera you mentioned that, when did you start working 674 00:37:39,640 --> 00:37:41,440 Speaker 1: for them? And just give us a history of Our 675 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,160 Speaker 1: Jazeera because we watch it over here and they're sort 676 00:37:44,200 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: of a disconnect. But there's a perception that they're aligned 677 00:37:47,440 --> 00:37:52,320 Speaker 1: with the Islamic states more so than the Western countries. 678 00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:54,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, I would never have worked for them if they 679 00:37:54,680 --> 00:37:56,680 Speaker 2: were alone with Islamists. 680 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: Well that's where I find their history quite interesting, if 681 00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: you could just it's fascinating. 682 00:38:01,600 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: So the BBC World Service produced a BBC Arabic language 683 00:38:08,920 --> 00:38:13,640 Speaker 2: news service for the Arabic world, and they survived. It 684 00:38:13,760 --> 00:38:18,320 Speaker 2: lasted for a few years until the funding from Saudi's 685 00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:25,000 Speaker 2: finally was pulled and the Qataris saw the extraordinary influence 686 00:38:25,080 --> 00:38:28,960 Speaker 2: that World Service that the Arabic Service had for on 687 00:38:29,080 --> 00:38:31,880 Speaker 2: the region and the soft power, the soft influence that 688 00:38:31,960 --> 00:38:35,960 Speaker 2: it gave the UK in the region, and they recognized 689 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:41,160 Speaker 2: that the Arabic speaking world had lost something when when 690 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,840 Speaker 2: the BBC closed down its Arabic service. So they basically 691 00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:49,200 Speaker 2: hired a lot of those BBC journalists to set up 692 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:55,399 Speaker 2: Al Jazeera Arabic, which became the only serious news news 693 00:38:55,440 --> 00:39:01,400 Speaker 2: service that was interrogating all of those Arabic language communities 694 00:39:02,760 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 2: with real independence and integrity. Because even I think I 695 00:39:07,520 --> 00:39:09,480 Speaker 2: think of it as there as a bit of window dressing, 696 00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 2: to be honest, if you watch our deasier English, what 697 00:39:11,800 --> 00:39:16,200 Speaker 2: you'll see is an organization that champions the underdog, that's 698 00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,360 Speaker 2: very liberal in its approach to human rights, to democracy, 699 00:39:20,440 --> 00:39:23,160 Speaker 2: freedom of speech and so on, which is patently frankly 700 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:27,759 Speaker 2: everything that Katara is not, you know. But from a 701 00:39:27,840 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 2: journalist's perspective, I didn't mind. I didn't mind that as 702 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,879 Speaker 2: long as they didn't mess with my journalism. As long 703 00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:36,440 Speaker 2: as I was able to have the editorial independence that 704 00:39:36,560 --> 00:39:40,279 Speaker 2: I needed to do my job, I was comfortable with that, 705 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:45,280 Speaker 2: and so I joined our de Zerra end of twenty 706 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,439 Speaker 2: ten covering East Africa, and it was extraordinary. They had 707 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: the resources to and the interest in covering all sorts 708 00:39:54,040 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 2: of stories that I would never have been able to 709 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,320 Speaker 2: do for the BBC because it was interesting, because it 710 00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: was I thought, editorially sound, even if it wasn't necessarily 711 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:05,920 Speaker 2: quite as sexy as as in the way that the 712 00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: BBC needed to see those stories or directly connected to 713 00:40:10,520 --> 00:40:13,279 Speaker 2: the British audiences. Just to be very clear on this, 714 00:40:13,320 --> 00:40:18,680 Speaker 2: by the way, very there is a perspective right in 715 00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:22,080 Speaker 2: the same way that if you're sitting in London reporting 716 00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,160 Speaker 2: the world or editing your news packages, your news stories 717 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,560 Speaker 2: and news programs, you'll have an anglocentric view of the world. 718 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:34,080 Speaker 2: That's just how it is because geographically, culturally, politically, where 719 00:40:34,160 --> 00:40:37,840 Speaker 2: you are influencers, how you understand relationships, and how you 720 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 2: report there is no make no mistake. By sitting in 721 00:40:41,440 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 2: Doha and reporting the world, you're going to have a 722 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:49,080 Speaker 2: view of the world that's colored by that geographic position, 723 00:40:49,239 --> 00:40:52,640 Speaker 2: by that cultural and political environment that you're operating in. 724 00:40:53,120 --> 00:40:56,279 Speaker 2: But that doesn't mean that they are pro Islamist. It 725 00:40:56,400 --> 00:40:59,839 Speaker 2: also does mean too, that they've got networks within these 726 00:41:00,360 --> 00:41:02,719 Speaker 2: world that gives an access that other people would never 727 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:04,360 Speaker 2: have had, and they certainly exploited that. 728 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: Twenty ten you started working with Al Jazir, the leading 729 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:14,360 Speaker 1: up to your arrest in Cairo. That was twenty and thirteen. 730 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 1: Correct me if I'm wrong, But it was just a 731 00:41:18,160 --> 00:41:21,399 Speaker 1: tempor You were leaving someone over over a break, as 732 00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:25,440 Speaker 1: simple as that sounds, but that's how you found yourself 733 00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:25,839 Speaker 1: in Kira. 734 00:41:26,000 --> 00:41:27,839 Speaker 2: Yeah. I hadn't worked in I hadn't covered Egypt before. 735 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: I didn't know the place very well. My base was Nairobi, 736 00:41:32,960 --> 00:41:35,399 Speaker 2: and Al Jazeera called and said, listen, do you mind 737 00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:37,160 Speaker 2: just covering the bureau for a couple of weeks over 738 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:39,440 Speaker 2: the Christmas New Year period. We're a bit light staffed. 739 00:41:40,400 --> 00:41:43,239 Speaker 2: Just need you to tread water, keep the stories ticking over, 740 00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 2: would you mind? Of course I didn't mind. You know, 741 00:41:46,239 --> 00:41:48,959 Speaker 2: I was fascinated by what was taking place in Cairo 742 00:41:49,080 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 2: and Egypt at the time and. 743 00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: What talks through what was happening at the time there. 744 00:41:54,719 --> 00:41:58,200 Speaker 2: So just to one o'clock back a little bit back 745 00:41:58,239 --> 00:42:01,840 Speaker 2: in twenty eleven, we saw the Spring uprising hostin will Barrack, 746 00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:04,719 Speaker 2: the long standing autocrat was forced from power with that 747 00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 2: popular uprising, and the following year, middle of twenty twelve, 748 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 2: we saw the first democratic elections in Egypt's history. Now, 749 00:42:12,040 --> 00:42:16,000 Speaker 2: the Muslim Brotherhood won those elections. Moment Morsey became the president, 750 00:42:16,600 --> 00:42:22,120 Speaker 2: the leader of the Brotherhood, and that was unexpected. There 751 00:42:22,200 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 2: was a product of the political system at the time, 752 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:30,000 Speaker 2: but indisputably the Brotherhood won. Middle of twenty thirteen, like 753 00:42:30,120 --> 00:42:33,759 Speaker 2: so many governments, so many revolutionary movements, they really make 754 00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 2: crap governments. And there was a lot of discontent in 755 00:42:36,560 --> 00:42:38,440 Speaker 2: the street. It's a lot of protests some of the 756 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,719 Speaker 2: more conservative policies. But by the by the middle of 757 00:42:42,760 --> 00:42:45,360 Speaker 2: twenty thirteen, when we saw those street protests, the military 758 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,719 Speaker 2: stepped up and said listen, we're a democracy. Now you've 759 00:42:47,800 --> 00:42:49,719 Speaker 2: lost clearly lost the confidence of the people, and you've 760 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:51,520 Speaker 2: got to stand aside, and he's a gun to You 761 00:42:51,560 --> 00:42:53,719 Speaker 2: had to make sure that you'd do it. It was 762 00:42:53,760 --> 00:42:57,160 Speaker 2: a coup in other words. And so by the time 763 00:42:57,239 --> 00:42:59,719 Speaker 2: that I arrived, there were a lot of a lot 764 00:42:59,800 --> 00:43:04,360 Speaker 2: of violent protests in the streets between and clashes between 765 00:43:04,400 --> 00:43:09,040 Speaker 2: supporters of the of the Brotherhood and supporters of the 766 00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:10,560 Speaker 2: military installed regime. 767 00:43:11,200 --> 00:43:14,440 Speaker 1: And you your role there was to cover it, got 768 00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:18,040 Speaker 1: to the location, gave the site, and cover the demonstrations 769 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:19,319 Speaker 1: and what was going on, and. 770 00:43:19,520 --> 00:43:21,680 Speaker 2: To cover some of the political changes that were that 771 00:43:21,800 --> 00:43:25,960 Speaker 2: were that were happening. The interim administration, the military installed 772 00:43:26,000 --> 00:43:31,000 Speaker 2: administration was redrafting the constitution, for example, and that make 773 00:43:31,080 --> 00:43:33,480 Speaker 2: some changes. You know. We'd pick up the phone and 774 00:43:33,600 --> 00:43:36,560 Speaker 2: call the opposition, which was the Brotherhood, the party that 775 00:43:36,640 --> 00:43:38,640 Speaker 2: was last in power, to find out their response, and 776 00:43:38,680 --> 00:43:40,680 Speaker 2: then you'd go and speak to a political analyst to 777 00:43:40,680 --> 00:43:41,480 Speaker 2: make sense of it all. 778 00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:44,160 Speaker 1: It was. It was vanilla journalists, very similar what you're 779 00:43:44,200 --> 00:43:47,840 Speaker 1: do in any democracy, just covering the different opinions. So 780 00:43:47,920 --> 00:43:49,680 Speaker 1: there was nothing that you were doing in the short 781 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:52,760 Speaker 1: time you were there that you thought I'm pushing it here. 782 00:43:52,760 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 2: Or no, in fact I was. You know, as a journalist, 783 00:43:55,440 --> 00:43:57,920 Speaker 2: when you when you get the better you know a story, 784 00:43:58,080 --> 00:44:01,240 Speaker 2: the more you start to understand the edges, you understand 785 00:44:01,280 --> 00:44:03,160 Speaker 2: how far you can push things before you're going to 786 00:44:03,200 --> 00:44:07,880 Speaker 2: get some kind of blowback, and you can take calculated 787 00:44:07,960 --> 00:44:11,760 Speaker 2: decisions about just how much you prepared to publish and broadcast. 788 00:44:12,560 --> 00:44:14,480 Speaker 2: Because I didn't know that with the Egypt I was 789 00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,000 Speaker 2: playing with a very very straight bat, and we were 790 00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:20,640 Speaker 2: very scrupulous about being factually accurate too. I had two 791 00:44:20,719 --> 00:44:23,719 Speaker 2: local guys, two local producers that knew and understood the 792 00:44:23,760 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 2: story inside and out, that were very very careful to 793 00:44:26,120 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 2: keep me on the straight and narrow when it came 794 00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,160 Speaker 2: to the fact So I was pretty confident that we 795 00:44:31,280 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 2: weren't doing anything that was controversial, that it was all 796 00:44:34,200 --> 00:44:35,200 Speaker 2: very very straightforward. 797 00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:41,560 Speaker 1: Okay, So when did when that either misassumption or not 798 00:44:41,640 --> 00:44:44,560 Speaker 1: the misassumption that's what you were doing. But when did 799 00:44:44,600 --> 00:44:45,840 Speaker 1: that unravel? 800 00:44:46,000 --> 00:44:52,840 Speaker 2: So December twenty eighth, twenty thirteen, I was about to 801 00:44:52,880 --> 00:44:54,440 Speaker 2: go out for dinner with a friend of mine, a 802 00:44:54,600 --> 00:44:57,960 Speaker 2: BBC correspondent who was also in town over that period, 803 00:44:58,440 --> 00:44:59,759 Speaker 2: who I hadn't seen for a while, and I was 804 00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:04,839 Speaker 2: forward to catching up. I was getting dressed when there 805 00:45:04,880 --> 00:45:08,239 Speaker 2: was a knock on the door. I didn't think too 806 00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:10,600 Speaker 2: much of it. If anyone ever wanted to speak to me, 807 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:14,640 Speaker 2: they'd use the phone. But you know, there was a 808 00:45:15,000 --> 00:45:17,759 Speaker 2: rather rather more urgent knock soon after that, a lot 809 00:45:17,840 --> 00:45:21,080 Speaker 2: more forceful. I remember cracking the door open, and as 810 00:45:21,120 --> 00:45:23,640 Speaker 2: I did, it was flung open as if there was 811 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:28,160 Speaker 2: a powerful spring behind it. Yeah, and the room was 812 00:45:28,200 --> 00:45:31,000 Speaker 2: filled with I had ten guys. I still don't I 813 00:45:31,080 --> 00:45:31,600 Speaker 2: still don't know. 814 00:45:31,800 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: I'm even comprehending what was going on. 815 00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:38,359 Speaker 2: No, they barred their way in, they moved. They weren't 816 00:45:38,360 --> 00:45:40,920 Speaker 2: playing clothes, so that I didn't know initially if they 817 00:45:40,920 --> 00:45:45,239 Speaker 2: were cops or who they were. But they moved with 818 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,160 Speaker 2: a professionalism that suggested that these guys weren't just a 819 00:45:49,239 --> 00:45:50,799 Speaker 2: bunch of thugs that were raiding. 820 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:52,080 Speaker 1: Had some purpose. 821 00:45:52,200 --> 00:45:55,520 Speaker 2: They had purpose and discipline and leadership. There was one 822 00:45:55,560 --> 00:45:57,240 Speaker 2: guy who was very clearly in charge. 823 00:45:57,920 --> 00:45:59,880 Speaker 1: And what did they What did they say to you? 824 00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:04,200 Speaker 2: What? Oh? They just demanded to see that demanded I 825 00:46:04,280 --> 00:46:09,480 Speaker 2: open up the safe. They demanded that I basically they 826 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:11,800 Speaker 2: ransacked the place. They didn't ask me too many questions 827 00:46:11,840 --> 00:46:16,080 Speaker 2: at that point, and just I wanted to see that 828 00:46:16,200 --> 00:46:18,160 Speaker 2: they had an arrest warrant, what was going on on 829 00:46:18,200 --> 00:46:21,360 Speaker 2: a search warrant. They asked me if I spoke or 830 00:46:21,360 --> 00:46:23,160 Speaker 2: if I could read Arabic, and of course I couldn't, 831 00:46:24,400 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 2: so they shrugged and said, well, there's not much point 832 00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:26,799 Speaker 2: in showing you. 833 00:46:26,800 --> 00:46:30,959 Speaker 1: What we've got, and they had to make any phone 834 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:31,400 Speaker 1: calls or. 835 00:46:31,480 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 2: No phone calls, no no communication whatsoever. We were taking 836 00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:40,239 Speaker 2: down into another room in the hotel that had been 837 00:46:40,280 --> 00:46:46,120 Speaker 2: commandeered by the police, and there was my other colleague, 838 00:46:46,160 --> 00:46:48,279 Speaker 2: Mouhammad Fami, who was a producer, who had also been 839 00:46:48,360 --> 00:46:50,759 Speaker 2: detained in another from another room at the hotel that 840 00:46:50,840 --> 00:46:55,160 Speaker 2: we were using as an office. And then when they 841 00:46:55,200 --> 00:46:57,279 Speaker 2: started asking his questions, you know what we were doing 842 00:46:57,360 --> 00:47:00,000 Speaker 2: in the hotel, whether we had licenses for the question 843 00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,719 Speaker 2: and why we were you know, why we were using 844 00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:04,040 Speaker 2: while we were working for Al Jazeera. 845 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,719 Speaker 1: I looked at the questions that sounded like you had reasonable, 846 00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,839 Speaker 1: reasonable answers for them. Yeah, so I'm looking. I've got 847 00:47:12,880 --> 00:47:15,839 Speaker 1: some of them down here because I'm thinking, Okay, I'm 848 00:47:15,880 --> 00:47:17,759 Speaker 1: trying to be objective. I'm trying to look from their 849 00:47:17,800 --> 00:47:20,040 Speaker 1: point of view. But there these are the questions they've 850 00:47:20,080 --> 00:47:22,800 Speaker 1: asked you. Why are you're hiding in the Marriott Hotel, 851 00:47:23,480 --> 00:47:26,120 Speaker 1: What are you doing with the Muslim Brotherhood, Why don't 852 00:47:26,160 --> 00:47:29,240 Speaker 1: you have press accreditation? Where is your license to operate 853 00:47:29,320 --> 00:47:33,520 Speaker 1: this equipment? Why are you're working for Al Jazeera? All 854 00:47:33,560 --> 00:47:36,279 Speaker 1: of which you've got reasonable answers for. 855 00:47:36,520 --> 00:47:38,960 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's nothing sinister about any of that stuff. 856 00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 2: There didn't seem to be any agenda, which is also 857 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:43,920 Speaker 2: part of the reason why I thought, look, this is 858 00:47:43,960 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 2: going to be over fairly quickly. There are good answers 859 00:47:47,239 --> 00:47:51,560 Speaker 2: to all of these questions. Younsidered or later they'd realize 860 00:47:51,600 --> 00:47:54,400 Speaker 2: that that someone had screwed up, or that you know, 861 00:47:54,480 --> 00:47:57,719 Speaker 2: that overstepped the mark, or you know, they'd rattle the 862 00:47:57,800 --> 00:47:59,719 Speaker 2: cage and we'd be allowed to go home. 863 00:48:00,040 --> 00:48:05,480 Speaker 1: But that definitely wasn't the case. So where were you taken? 864 00:48:05,520 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: After the sort of informal question. 865 00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 2: So we were taken into a police cell, horribly crowded, 866 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,520 Speaker 2: overcrowded place with I think they're about eight guys in 867 00:48:17,640 --> 00:48:20,400 Speaker 2: that cell, which is nothing compared to the following night, 868 00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,399 Speaker 2: where there was sixteen guys in a in a two 869 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:24,920 Speaker 2: meter square box. 870 00:48:24,760 --> 00:48:29,880 Speaker 1: To describe that, because I've seen people when they've been arrested, 871 00:48:29,920 --> 00:48:32,160 Speaker 1: and it's intimidating when you're in your own country and 872 00:48:32,200 --> 00:48:33,880 Speaker 1: you know what you've been arrested for. You're in a 873 00:48:33,920 --> 00:48:37,560 Speaker 1: foreign country, but you've got a worldview and you're well traveled, 874 00:48:38,040 --> 00:48:40,719 Speaker 1: but still that unknown and then being taken to a 875 00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,440 Speaker 1: detention center, prison or whatever and put in a cell 876 00:48:43,520 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: with that many people, What was going through your mind? 877 00:48:46,040 --> 00:48:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah, that was pretty scary. I was so the second 878 00:48:53,440 --> 00:48:55,800 Speaker 2: sell in particular, so fammy and I were together in 879 00:48:55,840 --> 00:48:59,120 Speaker 2: the first cell and we had the night there in 880 00:48:59,200 --> 00:49:01,719 Speaker 2: that box that it was very, very tight. We were 881 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:04,240 Speaker 2: like literally like sardines. 882 00:49:04,280 --> 00:49:04,400 Speaker 1: You know. 883 00:49:04,480 --> 00:49:06,800 Speaker 2: You couldn't you just lying down. You all had to 884 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:10,400 Speaker 2: roll over together. You couldn't. You had to lie on 885 00:49:10,480 --> 00:49:13,840 Speaker 2: the same side. You had to coordinate movements. But the 886 00:49:13,920 --> 00:49:16,719 Speaker 2: following night was even worse. Family went was taken to 887 00:49:16,800 --> 00:49:19,960 Speaker 2: a different prison. I was taken into it, this police cell. 888 00:49:20,000 --> 00:49:22,359 Speaker 2: It was about eight foot square, as I said, to meet, 889 00:49:22,400 --> 00:49:28,600 Speaker 2: a square no reading, no, no furniture, no you know, 890 00:49:28,760 --> 00:49:31,880 Speaker 2: just a leaky tap and leaky sink in one corner 891 00:49:32,400 --> 00:49:35,440 Speaker 2: tap and a bother stinky squat toilet and the other 892 00:49:36,440 --> 00:49:38,640 Speaker 2: and the door, and that was it. And in that 893 00:49:38,719 --> 00:49:40,440 Speaker 2: concrete box there were sixteen. 894 00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:41,440 Speaker 1: Guys eighty eight. 895 00:49:41,719 --> 00:49:44,759 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was. It was impossibly cramped, and some of 896 00:49:44,800 --> 00:49:46,399 Speaker 2: the guys had been in that cell for the better 897 00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:49,640 Speaker 2: part of six months and they were quite literally losing 898 00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:54,239 Speaker 2: their minds. The kind of psychological pressure of confinement, of 899 00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:59,360 Speaker 2: that of that type of confinement is immense, and I 900 00:49:59,560 --> 00:50:04,160 Speaker 2: realized then that this was getting pretty serious. There were 901 00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,640 Speaker 2: some students in there who had also been a lot 902 00:50:06,719 --> 00:50:08,960 Speaker 2: of the guys had been picked up in the sweeps 903 00:50:09,000 --> 00:50:11,839 Speaker 2: that the military had been doing looking for people who 904 00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:18,640 Speaker 2: were suspected of being wasn't Brotherhood sympathizers, but we you know, 905 00:50:18,840 --> 00:50:20,840 Speaker 2: And so I had a sun inkling of what was 906 00:50:20,880 --> 00:50:23,360 Speaker 2: going on, but didn't know a great deal about it 907 00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,759 Speaker 2: until the next day when we were taken to the 908 00:50:26,840 --> 00:50:31,160 Speaker 2: National Intelligence Director for interrogation. And that's really when I 909 00:50:31,280 --> 00:50:33,200 Speaker 2: learned the charges that we were facing. 910 00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:38,359 Speaker 1: And did you have your employer our JASEA were zero? 911 00:50:38,440 --> 00:50:41,080 Speaker 1: Were they informed or the Australian Consulate. 912 00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,640 Speaker 2: They were yes. So the Australian consul, the Australian Embassy center, 913 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:48,759 Speaker 2: a consular official to the National Intelligence Director at the 914 00:50:48,840 --> 00:50:53,440 Speaker 2: next day, so Al Jazeera was obviously aware. I had 915 00:50:53,520 --> 00:50:56,920 Speaker 2: no idea what they knew. I had no idea how 916 00:50:57,000 --> 00:50:59,200 Speaker 2: much information they had or what they were doing. All 917 00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:01,400 Speaker 2: I knew was a to the official had been alerted. 918 00:51:02,880 --> 00:51:05,920 Speaker 2: That was a pretty difficult conversation just because it was 919 00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:07,600 Speaker 2: a limit to what they could actually tell you. 920 00:51:07,760 --> 00:51:11,640 Speaker 1: I've heard that from quite a little group of colleagues 921 00:51:11,760 --> 00:51:15,080 Speaker 1: and other people that have been arrested in foreign lands. 922 00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,600 Speaker 1: It's you think, Okay, it's all going to be sorted 923 00:51:18,680 --> 00:51:21,120 Speaker 1: out now, and they basically walk in and go, we 924 00:51:21,360 --> 00:51:24,759 Speaker 1: can inform your family and not much not much else. 925 00:51:24,960 --> 00:51:30,080 Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, And to be fair to the constant the individuals, 926 00:51:30,080 --> 00:51:32,240 Speaker 2: because I think it's pretty difficult for them too, because 927 00:51:32,239 --> 00:51:33,600 Speaker 2: they'd love to help them. A lot of the time 928 00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,000 Speaker 2: that you know, they're kind of rolling their eyes because 929 00:51:36,040 --> 00:51:37,840 Speaker 2: most of the people that they're having to deal with, 930 00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,120 Speaker 2: they're Aussies who've I don't know've gotten themselves drunken and 931 00:51:41,520 --> 00:51:45,080 Speaker 2: crashed a motorbike into someone's car or done something stupid, 932 00:51:45,160 --> 00:51:48,239 Speaker 2: you know, gotten broken, maybe shoplifted some food or done 933 00:51:48,280 --> 00:51:52,040 Speaker 2: something like that, you know, And so it's really difficult 934 00:51:52,160 --> 00:51:55,960 Speaker 2: in those circumstances. But even in cases like mine and 935 00:51:56,080 --> 00:52:01,080 Speaker 2: Sean's and chang Lais and others. Is a domestic legal 936 00:52:01,160 --> 00:52:05,239 Speaker 2: process that you're stuck in. And apart from monitoring and 937 00:52:05,320 --> 00:52:08,520 Speaker 2: observing what you're going through, and apart from telling your 938 00:52:08,560 --> 00:52:12,919 Speaker 2: own family what's happened and perhaps giving you a list 939 00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:16,480 Speaker 2: of English speaking lawyers, there's nothing really that they can 940 00:52:16,560 --> 00:52:20,600 Speaker 2: actively do. They can't directly intervene, certainly not without significant 941 00:52:20,640 --> 00:52:24,640 Speaker 2: political and diplomatic weight behind them, which we didn't have 942 00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:25,160 Speaker 2: at that point. 943 00:52:25,880 --> 00:52:28,680 Speaker 1: So charge is how long can they hold you? Could 944 00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:29,760 Speaker 1: you even find out. 945 00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:30,279 Speaker 2: That or was it? 946 00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:30,719 Speaker 1: Yeah? 947 00:52:31,160 --> 00:52:34,360 Speaker 2: So there was a kind of six week process. It 948 00:52:34,400 --> 00:52:37,759 Speaker 2: could be held for six weeks for questioning before you 949 00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:40,719 Speaker 2: had to go before a magistrate and have the case 950 00:52:40,800 --> 00:52:43,160 Speaker 2: reviewed and they would either throw it out and release 951 00:52:43,239 --> 00:52:46,440 Speaker 2: you or the charges the tension period would be renewed. 952 00:52:47,440 --> 00:52:52,520 Speaker 2: And so yeah, you kind of stuck within that interrogation process. 953 00:52:53,440 --> 00:52:56,200 Speaker 1: Where is like and where are your house? Have you 954 00:52:56,360 --> 00:52:58,080 Speaker 1: been moved from the eight by eight? 955 00:52:58,280 --> 00:53:00,959 Speaker 2: Yeah? I was moved from that cell to a place 956 00:53:01,000 --> 00:53:05,719 Speaker 2: called Limentura, which was the political wing of one of 957 00:53:05,760 --> 00:53:09,160 Speaker 2: the political wings of the Torah prison complex, and I 958 00:53:09,280 --> 00:53:13,400 Speaker 2: was placed in solitary confinement but also learned through some 959 00:53:13,560 --> 00:53:17,959 Speaker 2: of my neighboring the inmates in the wing who would 960 00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:20,200 Speaker 2: come past the outside of the door and speak through 961 00:53:20,280 --> 00:53:21,759 Speaker 2: the door, whispered through the door when there were no 962 00:53:21,840 --> 00:53:24,440 Speaker 2: guards around, and tell me what was going on. And 963 00:53:24,560 --> 00:53:30,319 Speaker 2: they said that I was in Limentura alongside a lot 964 00:53:30,400 --> 00:53:34,120 Speaker 2: of the leaders of the of the Arab Spring uprising, 965 00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:40,840 Speaker 2: the pro democracy activists, writers, poets, activists, lawyers, trade unionists, 966 00:53:40,880 --> 00:53:43,759 Speaker 2: all sorts of sort of civil society actors, I guess 967 00:53:43,880 --> 00:53:46,880 Speaker 2: is the way that you might describe them, who were 968 00:53:46,880 --> 00:53:50,680 Speaker 2: all there on terrorism charges and espionage charges and so on. 969 00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,200 Speaker 2: But it was in I was in solitary confinement. So 970 00:53:55,880 --> 00:53:58,080 Speaker 2: you know, that's a that's a that's a pretty tough 971 00:53:58,160 --> 00:53:58,400 Speaker 2: thing to. 972 00:53:58,640 --> 00:54:01,040 Speaker 1: Us through that. When you say so litry confinement, what 973 00:54:01,880 --> 00:54:02,800 Speaker 1: what did that involve? 974 00:54:03,160 --> 00:54:04,080 Speaker 2: Well? Nothing, no. 975 00:54:05,960 --> 00:54:09,400 Speaker 1: Question, dumb question answer. 976 00:54:11,000 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 2: You stuck, Yeah, exactly. No, really material you've got you 977 00:54:16,280 --> 00:54:18,440 Speaker 2: know you've got no, you've got to you've got to 978 00:54:18,480 --> 00:54:19,920 Speaker 2: look after your own mind. I mean, one of the 979 00:54:20,000 --> 00:54:22,920 Speaker 2: things I remember, but it was pieces of advice that 980 00:54:23,000 --> 00:54:25,640 Speaker 2: I had from from one of the other inmates, from 981 00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:30,080 Speaker 2: an extraordinary guy called who said to me that at 982 00:54:30,120 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 2: one point when I was told him that I was 983 00:54:32,160 --> 00:54:35,839 Speaker 2: really struggling. In one of these conversations through the through 984 00:54:35,920 --> 00:54:38,640 Speaker 2: the door, I told him, I'm really struggling. I I've 985 00:54:38,680 --> 00:54:42,040 Speaker 2: got because the thing that happens in solitary is the 986 00:54:42,120 --> 00:54:44,960 Speaker 2: absence of anything else to do with your mind. You 987 00:54:45,080 --> 00:54:47,080 Speaker 2: start to play the movie of your life on the 988 00:54:47,160 --> 00:54:51,520 Speaker 2: walls of the cell, and I remember previous relationships, you know, 989 00:54:51,600 --> 00:54:56,440 Speaker 2: the people, previous exes that I'd let down, Kate's murder, 990 00:54:56,800 --> 00:54:59,000 Speaker 2: all of that stuff was going through my mind, and 991 00:54:59,440 --> 00:55:02,239 Speaker 2: you know, starting to think, well, because I couldn't see 992 00:55:02,280 --> 00:55:05,320 Speaker 2: any connection between the reality of the form, the ordinary 993 00:55:05,400 --> 00:55:08,200 Speaker 2: journalism that we've done, and the ridiculous terrorism charges that 994 00:55:08,239 --> 00:55:10,160 Speaker 2: we were facing, I started to think, well, maybe this 995 00:55:10,280 --> 00:55:13,440 Speaker 2: is the universe, right, this is this is this just can't. 996 00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:15,960 Speaker 1: That's the way the way your mind plays. 997 00:55:16,280 --> 00:55:19,560 Speaker 2: And I was saying this to alone. He said to 998 00:55:19,640 --> 00:55:21,360 Speaker 2: me that this and you you're you're not going to 999 00:55:21,400 --> 00:55:23,160 Speaker 2: make it through this unless you're able to make peace 1000 00:55:23,200 --> 00:55:28,000 Speaker 2: with yourself, which was perhaps the most important. I think. 1001 00:55:28,000 --> 00:55:32,360 Speaker 1: I actually what that relates to. I pulled the quote 1002 00:55:32,560 --> 00:55:35,680 Speaker 1: out of out of your book and that and I'll 1003 00:55:35,719 --> 00:55:38,000 Speaker 1: just read that out because I think it speaks very 1004 00:55:38,080 --> 00:55:41,520 Speaker 1: much to what you're just talking about. There. In the 1005 00:55:41,600 --> 00:55:43,560 Speaker 1: time I've burned in prison, I've learned a few things 1006 00:55:43,600 --> 00:55:46,680 Speaker 1: about getting through it, and the biggest lesson is this, 1007 00:55:47,360 --> 00:55:50,280 Speaker 1: you cannot make it through prison. You will not survive, certainly, 1008 00:55:50,320 --> 00:55:52,480 Speaker 1: not with your centery intact, unless you are able to 1009 00:55:52,520 --> 00:55:55,719 Speaker 1: make peace with yourself. And so it's almost like an 1010 00:55:55,840 --> 00:55:57,200 Speaker 1: enlightening moment, isn't it that. 1011 00:55:57,600 --> 00:56:01,800 Speaker 2: It's funny you say that, because remember there was another 1012 00:56:01,880 --> 00:56:03,759 Speaker 2: moment when I was saying to one of the guys 1013 00:56:03,800 --> 00:56:06,320 Speaker 2: that came outside the cell that I was really finding 1014 00:56:06,840 --> 00:56:11,600 Speaker 2: trying confinement really hard. And he said, I think he 1015 00:56:11,719 --> 00:56:15,200 Speaker 2: misunderstood what I said. And he said to me, like yes, 1016 00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,200 Speaker 2: he said, he said, you know, monks and try for 1017 00:56:18,680 --> 00:56:21,759 Speaker 2: years to find solitude, to find the space to think. 1018 00:56:21,800 --> 00:56:23,160 Speaker 2: And he said, it's a blessing, isn't it. 1019 00:56:26,840 --> 00:56:28,600 Speaker 1: I always look on the bright side of light. 1020 00:56:28,680 --> 00:56:33,080 Speaker 2: Well, yeah, exactly forty days and forty nine. It's the 1021 00:56:33,160 --> 00:56:35,400 Speaker 2: kind of classic period and the desert of self reflection 1022 00:56:35,480 --> 00:56:36,040 Speaker 2: and meditation. 1023 00:56:36,239 --> 00:56:38,719 Speaker 1: But you had to dig deep. There was things I 1024 00:56:38,800 --> 00:56:43,560 Speaker 1: think you had delved into Buddhism and meditation previously before 1025 00:56:43,600 --> 00:56:45,680 Speaker 1: you were locked up, and you found some solace in 1026 00:56:46,239 --> 00:56:48,040 Speaker 1: those practices and those thoughts. 1027 00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:51,200 Speaker 2: Yeah. I actually think it was the Buddhist meditation that 1028 00:56:51,440 --> 00:56:55,680 Speaker 2: really helped keep my sanity intact. Yeah, the kind of 1029 00:56:56,280 --> 00:57:01,880 Speaker 2: approach to sitting still and to watching your thoughts almost 1030 00:57:01,960 --> 00:57:06,520 Speaker 2: as an independent observer, learning to see the thoughts as 1031 00:57:06,560 --> 00:57:10,360 Speaker 2: a kind of detached witness, not seeing them, not owning 1032 00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 2: the thoughts, and starting to recognize them as just functions 1033 00:57:13,560 --> 00:57:17,160 Speaker 2: of what the mind does rather than getting invested in them. 1034 00:57:18,240 --> 00:57:20,840 Speaker 2: That was a really crucial part of surviving. 1035 00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,560 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting how you can dig deep in those situations. Also, 1036 00:57:26,080 --> 00:57:30,400 Speaker 1: you trained as much as you could depending on the environment, mentally, 1037 00:57:30,960 --> 00:57:34,920 Speaker 1: running like physical, trying to Yeah, absolutely once as well. 1038 00:57:34,840 --> 00:57:37,840 Speaker 2: Absolutely you have to. You know, if we go back 1039 00:57:37,880 --> 00:57:41,280 Speaker 2: to those guys that have been in this in that 1040 00:57:41,480 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 2: tiny eight by eight foot square, cel I realized that 1041 00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:46,320 Speaker 2: that a lot of them had also lost contact with 1042 00:57:46,920 --> 00:57:50,600 Speaker 2: the diurnal rhythms, with the daily rhythms. They're up until three, 1043 00:57:50,720 --> 00:57:54,240 Speaker 2: four five in the morning, joking, laughing, crying and doing 1044 00:57:54,240 --> 00:57:58,120 Speaker 2: all sorts of hysterical things and sleep through the day. 1045 00:57:58,120 --> 00:58:00,680 Speaker 2: And I realized what was really important was to hold 1046 00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:04,520 Speaker 2: on to the dianal rhythm. To get to the end 1047 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:07,400 Speaker 2: of the day and be physically tired and sleep at 1048 00:58:07,520 --> 00:58:10,760 Speaker 2: night and then wake up early and be physically active 1049 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,880 Speaker 2: during the day. And that meant exercising, whether it was 1050 00:58:15,000 --> 00:58:16,760 Speaker 2: running on the spot or when we were finally when 1051 00:58:16,800 --> 00:58:19,320 Speaker 2: I was finally out of the cell, doing laps up 1052 00:58:19,360 --> 00:58:24,360 Speaker 2: and down the cell corridor, around the exercise yard, always 1053 00:58:24,880 --> 00:58:27,200 Speaker 2: doing whatever I could to be physically active, so that 1054 00:58:27,280 --> 00:58:29,960 Speaker 2: come the end of the day, I'd be exhausted and 1055 00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:31,320 Speaker 2: tired and ready to sleep. 1056 00:58:31,160 --> 00:58:33,640 Speaker 1: And I would imagine finding some of the group of purpose. 1057 00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,920 Speaker 1: That's what a lot of mental health experts always if 1058 00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,280 Speaker 1: people are going through tough times or have purpose. 1059 00:58:39,680 --> 00:58:43,040 Speaker 2: It's purpose and discipline. But it's also about filling time too. 1060 00:58:44,240 --> 00:58:47,040 Speaker 2: It's the empty time that does your head in. And 1061 00:58:47,160 --> 00:58:51,560 Speaker 2: so the exercise was really crucial way of filling the 1062 00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:54,760 Speaker 2: time in a way that I felt was productive. We'd 1063 00:58:54,800 --> 00:58:58,360 Speaker 2: also do a lot of creative stuff as well, you know, 1064 00:58:58,720 --> 00:59:01,440 Speaker 2: deliberately creative time. I'm saying that through this period of 1065 00:59:01,480 --> 00:59:05,520 Speaker 2: the day, we will now do creative things or play games, 1066 00:59:05,960 --> 00:59:10,880 Speaker 2: things that would keep us mentally active, you know. I remember. 1067 00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,240 Speaker 2: So sometimes the food would come wrapped in aluminum foil 1068 00:59:15,040 --> 00:59:18,160 Speaker 2: and you know, but aluminum foil has a shiny side 1069 00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:21,120 Speaker 2: and a mate side. And I discovered that foil actually 1070 00:59:21,200 --> 00:59:23,439 Speaker 2: sticks quite well to the prison walls if you smear 1071 00:59:23,520 --> 00:59:24,040 Speaker 2: it with soap. 1072 00:59:24,760 --> 00:59:26,560 Speaker 1: And so that's right, you made that. 1073 00:59:26,720 --> 00:59:29,320 Speaker 2: So we made these big murals on the wall. 1074 00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,520 Speaker 1: Which reflect the light better than you anticipation. 1075 00:59:31,640 --> 00:59:32,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it was beautiful. 1076 00:59:33,480 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 1: That's the architect from your father coming through. 1077 00:59:38,240 --> 00:59:40,400 Speaker 2: But Gary, here's the thing in a way that I 1078 00:59:40,480 --> 00:59:44,959 Speaker 2: didn't understand suddenly, and it was only afterwards I realized 1079 00:59:44,960 --> 00:59:47,040 Speaker 2: when I was reflecting back on it. We started to 1080 00:59:47,120 --> 00:59:50,520 Speaker 2: deal with mind, body, and soul. Yes, those three key 1081 00:59:50,600 --> 00:59:53,560 Speaker 2: elements I guess of of survival. 1082 00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:56,120 Speaker 1: When it's all stripped back, that's what it comes down. 1083 00:59:56,160 --> 00:59:57,440 Speaker 2: That's what it comes down to, and you have to 1084 00:59:57,480 --> 00:59:58,160 Speaker 2: manage all three. 1085 00:59:58,360 --> 01:00:02,600 Speaker 1: Yeah. Interesting, Well, I think we might take a break here. 1086 01:00:02,600 --> 01:00:04,280 Speaker 1: I'm going to leave you in prison at this stage. 1087 01:00:04,320 --> 01:00:06,000 Speaker 1: I'm sorry. I had to hope to get you out 1088 01:00:06,000 --> 01:00:08,080 Speaker 1: of prison before the end of part one, but we're 1089 01:00:08,120 --> 01:00:09,760 Speaker 1: going to have to leave you in prison. When we 1090 01:00:09,880 --> 01:00:12,080 Speaker 1: come back, we're going to talk about your battle for freedom, 1091 01:00:12,120 --> 01:00:14,000 Speaker 1: because it was a battle and there were some big 1092 01:00:14,080 --> 01:00:17,840 Speaker 1: decisions to make, including about going on a hunger strike. 1093 01:00:17,960 --> 01:00:20,600 Speaker 1: The people that you were arrested with had different strategies 1094 01:00:20,680 --> 01:00:25,600 Speaker 1: on how to get through this or fight the allegations 1095 01:00:25,760 --> 01:00:27,960 Speaker 1: against you. I also want to ask you what it's 1096 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,520 Speaker 1: like having a famous Australian actor play you in a 1097 01:00:30,800 --> 01:00:33,840 Speaker 1: movie about your life and what your thoughts on him, 1098 01:00:33,840 --> 01:00:36,960 Speaker 1: because I can't get Rake out of my mind. Either 1099 01:00:37,080 --> 01:00:40,520 Speaker 1: character that Richard Roxburgh played in that Rake or the 1100 01:00:40,680 --> 01:00:43,919 Speaker 1: last person he actually played was a real life person 1101 01:00:44,000 --> 01:00:47,880 Speaker 1: he played was Roger Rogerson, notorious criminal, and he played 1102 01:00:47,960 --> 01:00:48,560 Speaker 1: him very well. 1103 01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:52,600 Speaker 2: So yeah, notoriously corrupt cop exactly. 1104 01:00:53,000 --> 01:00:56,840 Speaker 1: He's probably more fitting. He's passed away now, but yeah, 1105 01:00:57,160 --> 01:00:59,160 Speaker 1: so we'll have a bit of fun talking about that. 1106 01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:01,440 Speaker 1: And I also want to delve into your thoughts on 1107 01:01:01,880 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: journalism because that's something you're very passionate about and the 1108 01:01:05,360 --> 01:01:09,800 Speaker 1: thing the importance of journalism and journalists have been allowed 1109 01:01:09,880 --> 01:01:12,120 Speaker 1: to tell their stories and the impact that can have. 1110 01:01:12,320 --> 01:01:14,120 Speaker 1: So we'll do that when we get back to part