Speaker 1: I get a team, so you project it's Tiffany and Cook,
Speaker 1: It's Kate, Mary, Veronica Loois Save. It's the project that's you.
Speaker 1: Will start with the pugilist, the box of the thug,
Speaker 1: the woman about town, Tiffany and Cook, the consumer of cookies,
Speaker 1: Kate Save, the dietitian and excise physiologist. I think also
Speaker 1: I might have something to say about that. Tiff Tell
Speaker 1: Kate about the cookies that you are not only addicted to,
Speaker 1: but try to get everyone else addicted to.
Speaker 2: Incidentally, I just took someone to the cookie shop today,
Speaker 2: so I can still taste the cookie that Kate. They
Speaker 2: may not be nutritionally sound, but they are so nutritious
Speaker 2: for my soul. They are life changing cookies.
Speaker 3: I'm wondering the other box, the other bucket. You know
Speaker 3: what is that? The fulfilling heart buckets?
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, the important one.
Speaker 1: I wonder if the joy and dough for me, and
Speaker 1: the euphoria that comes with those cookies offsets the calories
Speaker 1: and the sugar and the cellular damage. I wonder if
Speaker 1: it's in its own way despite being unhealthy. Maybe maybe
Speaker 1: it kind of comes out like equal.
Speaker 2: Because cortisol is not healthy and I feel that just
Speaker 2: drop when I get one of those bad boys in
Speaker 2: my hand.
Speaker 1: Well, it's pretty much the antidote to everything. Look at
Speaker 1: us trying to make science up as we go. That's
Speaker 1: that's how science works. Fingering her finger.
Speaker 3: Yes, it's so great. I think there's something in that.
Speaker 3: Do either of you wear an or a ring?
Speaker 4: No?
Speaker 3: But I wear a garment, okay.
Speaker 4: And so it looks at your different states, and it
Speaker 4: looks at your stress and your restorative time. Yesterday I
Speaker 4: eat said, oh, you've had more restorative time than usual.
Speaker 3: I never watch TV.
Speaker 4: And I sat down with my daughter and husband in
Speaker 4: bed and we watched All A Time to Kill and
Speaker 4: I just felt so lucky at the end that you know,
Speaker 4: it's a beautiful movie, it's a horrible movie, all those things.
Speaker 4: And yeah, so my restorative time went through the roof.
Speaker 4: So I think you're onto something, Greg. I feel like
Speaker 4: it could be maybe slightly offset if it can put
Speaker 4: you into that restorative phase, because that's healing for your body.
Speaker 4: So you'll have to check your checking amen.
Speaker 1: Before Tiff jumps in, she's going to I think it's
Speaker 1: dose dependent, your honor, I think it. I think it
Speaker 1: depends on how many cookies gone Tiff.
Speaker 2: Well on that. People used to say to me that
Speaker 2: my motto was if a little bit's good, a lot
Speaker 2: must be better, because anything I liked, I would have
Speaker 2: tenfold of it.
Speaker 4: Well, this has not started on the nutritious thoughts, has it?
Speaker 1: It has? Do you know what this has started on?
Speaker 4: That?
Speaker 1: This has started on the real world foot because this
Speaker 1: is normal humans deal with how much shit can I eat?
Speaker 1: Or how much how many cordatas can I have? Or
Speaker 1: how often can I have one of those cookies? Or
Speaker 1: I mean, to me, this is actually a good conversation because,
Speaker 1: like I say to people all the time, don't do
Speaker 1: what I do because I'm compared to the average, I'm extreme.
Speaker 1: Like for me, I'm not extreme. For me, I'm totally normal.
Speaker 1: But don't use me as a barometer because I'm a
Speaker 1: fucking weirdo. So if you have a pizza a week,
Speaker 1: or three beers a week, or a wine every night,
Speaker 1: or a cookie once or twice a week that Tiff
Speaker 1: uses and recommends, or you know, or you have bee
Speaker 1: fit foods every second day not every day, or whatever
Speaker 1: it is, Like, I think it's trying to find something
Speaker 1: that works, not only physiologically and nutritionally, but also emotionally,
Speaker 1: psychologically and sociologically, because once it or not, food is
Speaker 1: way more more than just food, Like especially in Australia,
Speaker 1: it's way more than and you know, we can all
Speaker 1: go well, if I put you on it And I
Speaker 1: used to say this to people, if I put you
Speaker 1: on an island and I only fed you this and that,
Speaker 1: and that's true, their body would change a certain way
Speaker 1: if they only had access to certain food. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess it's always a bit of a trade off Kpe.
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And at the end of the day, if you
Speaker 4: feel miserable, that's not good for your health. If you
Speaker 4: feel in a stress state, that's not good for your health.
Speaker 4: So there's got to be some sort of balance there.
Speaker 4: But on the flip side of that, you've got to
Speaker 4: be conscious of your eating and you need to compensate
Speaker 4: unless you want to change. So if you don't compensate,
Speaker 4: it doesn't evaporate. And I think you're both the most
Speaker 4: consistent people that I know with your training and whatever
Speaker 4: you do is consistent, not just your training but your podcast.
Speaker 4: Everything you do is consistent. And if people are consistently healthy,
Speaker 4: then whenever they have the other stuff, they compensate for it.
Speaker 3: It's fine.
Speaker 4: But if you don't compensate and you're not consistent the
Speaker 4: rest of the time, then you're in a world of trouble.
Speaker 1: Hmmm. I think that's I think for the average person,
Speaker 1: trying to figure out what that balance is a really
Speaker 1: good question to ask and a really good kind of
Speaker 1: a little bit of you know, and equals one self
Speaker 1: research to go, oh, how do I Like I've told
Speaker 1: I've said this before, but like for about ten years
Speaker 1: maybe more, I would not have a fucking if somebody
Speaker 1: said I'll give you a hundred bucks to eat this
Speaker 1: crumb of cake, I would say no, right, I was
Speaker 1: just and it wasn't about the crumb of cake. It
Speaker 1: was about my mind and my emotions and my reactions
Speaker 1: and my responses. Just like you would not say to
Speaker 1: an addict, just have a tiny bit of coke, or now,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean, just have a tiny
Speaker 1: bit of coke, you know, or an alcoholic, look, just
Speaker 1: have a core of a glass of beer. Like, no
Speaker 1: one would do that. But and like here's the thing.
Speaker 1: If people who don't have food issues hear this, they'd go, well,
Speaker 1: you're just a fucking idiot. You got no self control.
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, that's spoken by a person who doesn't
Speaker 1: have food issues. Like for me, food was as close
Speaker 1: to being a drug addiction as I would ever have,
Speaker 1: because I would eat food I didn't need. I would
Speaker 1: do things that I knew were self destructive. This is
Speaker 1: the same as addiction. I would lie about my eating,
Speaker 1: I would eat in secret. I would tell people to
Speaker 1: do things that I wasn't doing. I didn't follow my
Speaker 1: own advice. I wasted my own knowledge. I mean, that's
Speaker 1: just all the behaviors of an addict, you know. But
Speaker 1: and you've got to get to the point where you go, well,
Speaker 1: I'm a bit full of shit. And so I think
Speaker 1: that you know, people trying to understand what is an
Speaker 1: operating system. I mean, obviously purely from a nutritional and
Speaker 1: a scientific point of view, then let's just look at
Speaker 1: micros and macros and energy and quality of food. Yes,
Speaker 1: but then beyond that, also you know what's going to
Speaker 1: work for you just practically moving forward, so you can
Speaker 1: be pretty lean, pretty healthy, pretty operational. And also you
Speaker 1: can have a bit of this and a bit of that,
Speaker 1: but not forty times a.
Speaker 4: Week, absolutely, and I think it's only when people get
Speaker 4: the scared or something. You know, they've got a goal
Speaker 4: and they decide they want to change, and they realize
Speaker 4: that change is so much harder than they ever imagined.
Speaker 4: I got invited to a dinner party the other night,
Speaker 4: but I was warned it was only two people and
Speaker 4: they wanted to speak to me about pre diabetes and
Speaker 4: talking about going on weight loss medications. I was like, oh,
Speaker 4: here we go. So a couple of hours later we
Speaker 4: had a really insightful conversation, and needless to say, I'm
Speaker 4: not pro medication.
Speaker 3: Over lifestyle because at the end of the day, if
Speaker 3: you are going to take any of those weight.
Speaker 4: Loss drugs, the first thing you do before you start
Speaker 4: your script is strength training three times a week, have small,
Speaker 4: high protein, nutrie dense meals, and make sure that you're
Speaker 4: well nourished.
Speaker 3: Then go on the drug. And what they.
Speaker 4: Said to me is, well, if I was doing that, well,
Speaker 4: why would I need the drug. I'm like, well, good question,
Speaker 4: But can't I just go on a little bit? Well, actually,
Speaker 4: you never ever go off it. Do you ever go
Speaker 4: off your cholesterol, your high blood pressure medications, those sorts
Speaker 4: of things. No, And it's the same thing with a
Speaker 4: weight loss drug. People think that they can have a
Speaker 4: small dose, get the weight off, and then the weight
Speaker 4: will stay off, And that's not the way they work.
Speaker 4: You are meant to be on them for life forever.
Speaker 4: So once you start them, you must also keep up
Speaker 4: your strength training three times a week and your perfect
Speaker 4: eating three times a day, because if you don't do
Speaker 4: perfect eating, you can only afford to eat a very
Speaker 4: small amount of food because you'll feel sick all the time,
Speaker 4: you'll have very small appetite, and you'll still have the
Speaker 4: same protein and nutrient requirements, you just won't want all
Speaker 4: the other stuff. So if you're not prepared to do
Speaker 4: that for the rest of your life, don't start.
Speaker 1: Wowser. Well, I mean see, and I guess playing Devil's advocate,
Speaker 1: I'm with you. By the way, I'm not a fan
Speaker 1: at all. And by the way, everyone, this is not
Speaker 1: medical recommendations or prescriptions by Kate Orchip.
Speaker 4: I have no issues with people taking it, but that's
Speaker 4: the script that goes with the script.
Speaker 3: That's the truth.
Speaker 1: That's the deal. Yeah, I'm just like and I get it.
Speaker 1: I get it that it's helped some people, and I
Speaker 1: understand and I think that's legit. But also you know
Speaker 1: that I can't remember the numbers, but I know that
Speaker 1: there's definitely quite a significant percentage of the weight losses
Speaker 1: muscle like. Nobody needs to lose muscle like nobody. There's
Speaker 1: no benefit for anybody lose unless you're a bodybuilder who's
Speaker 1: one hundred and forty kilos and you just want to
Speaker 1: get smaller. But you know, losing muscle mass is losing strength,
Speaker 1: is losing function, and if you're losing muscle mass, you're
Speaker 1: probably losing bone density. You know, there's a whole bunch
Speaker 1: of stuff that that potentially is going to happen. And
Speaker 1: when we look at, you know, weight loss as a
Speaker 1: stand alone, maybe maybe, But then if you look at
Speaker 1: some of the all the other stuff, the side effects,
Speaker 1: some of the physiological consequences perhaps over time of being
Speaker 1: dependent on a drug. And while I know we probably
Speaker 1: have a lot of lesseners who use it, and so
Speaker 1: I'm not trying to throw any shade, but I also think,
Speaker 1: you know, me, as the like the student of human behavior,
Speaker 1: I just think, Okay, so now I the only way
Speaker 1: that I can stay in the shape that I want
Speaker 1: is I've got to take this drug now forever. When
Speaker 1: you think, well, what does it do? It literally makes
Speaker 1: me eat less food. Well that's what that's what other
Speaker 1: people do, but without the drug. It's like, that's how
Speaker 1: I went from being a fat kid to a fit kid.
Speaker 1: Is I have my food essentially and increase my energy expenditure.
Speaker 1: And I lost thirty kilos and there was no ozenpic
Speaker 1: or no woogarbi or whatever it is. And you know
Speaker 1: it's like and it's not, Oh, therefore everybody should do
Speaker 1: what I did. But yeah, I just I don't know
Speaker 1: that mentally and emotionally it's a great thing either.
Speaker 3: Can I answer this?
Speaker 4: So at this dinner party conversation, I said, well, how
Speaker 4: much waste do you want to lose? And there's a
Speaker 4: beautiful friends of mine, so I know they don't mind
Speaker 4: me talking about this, and one of them wanted to
Speaker 4: lose fifteen kilos and I said, okay, well how much
Speaker 4: way to be lost? So far on the journey because
Speaker 4: they've changed all their habits, they've already lost five kilos
Speaker 4: And I said, following kilos is a lot to lose,
Speaker 4: and she said to me, or it doesn't, you know,
Speaker 4: it doesn't feel like a lot.
Speaker 3: I've got a lot more to go, And.
Speaker 4: I said, that is the equivalent of walking seventy thousand kilometers.
Speaker 4: Now I'm not very good at geography, but that sounds
Speaker 4: like walking around Australia to me. If it's about two.
Speaker 3: Thousand kilometers from here to Queensland, would that be right?
Speaker 1: Yeah? Yeah, like that too.
Speaker 4: It wouldn't be to walk around Australia. That would be
Speaker 4: That's a long way.
Speaker 3: Isn't it.
Speaker 1: I don't know about I don't know about that. Seventy
Speaker 1: thousand kilometers.
Speaker 4: Well, so you burn fifty calories per kilometer. Each kilo
Speaker 4: is seven thousand calories seventy.
Speaker 1: Seven Oh no, yeah, right right, So a pound of
Speaker 1: fat is me do this? So akilo is seventy seven hundred.
Speaker 1: A kilo is seventy seven hundred calories.
Speaker 3: Yep, seventy seven hundred.
Speaker 1: Yeah. The problem with this maths is I know where
Speaker 1: you're going though. It's is that we burn different amount
Speaker 1: of calories per unit of time, per distance. There's just
Speaker 1: a lot of like me and TIF doing the same
Speaker 1: thing won't burn the same calories because I'm twenty kilos heavier.
Speaker 3: That's right.
Speaker 4: So at the end of the day, anyway, losing weight
Speaker 4: is much much harder than people understand. But the thing is,
Speaker 4: if you lose a lot of weight, you do change
Speaker 4: your metabolic rate. So if you were eating eighteen hundred
Speaker 4: calories or two thousand calories before, let's say you go
Speaker 4: on this drug for five years and you drop your
Speaker 4: twenty kilos. When you are twenty kilos less, your food
Speaker 4: requirement is significantly less, your metabolic grate is significantly less.
Speaker 4: So are you prepared if you do or you don't
Speaker 4: come off the drug. And most people hope to come
Speaker 4: off the drug to have twenty five percent less food
Speaker 4: for the rest of your life, knowing that if you
Speaker 4: just eat good what you are eating now, you need
Speaker 4: to have good, but twenty five percent less less than
Speaker 4: that if you lose that much weight.
Speaker 3: And that was a real shock because when you think
Speaker 3: you've got to your.
Speaker 4: Limit of how good you can be and then you're
Speaker 4: told you need twenty five percent less than that because
Speaker 4: as your weight comes down, your metabolick great comes down.
Speaker 3: With that, you need a lot less food.
Speaker 4: And is that the lifestyle you want to live for
Speaker 4: the rest of your life, or is this number of
Speaker 4: weight that you want to lose just a number.
Speaker 3: Is this just a fictional thing?
Speaker 4: Are you actually going to be happy not eating much
Speaker 4: at all and being really careful all the time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, Look, it's complicated because also, you know, you get
Speaker 1: a sixty kilo lady who's got very little muscle versus
Speaker 1: Tiff who's sixty kilos with a lot of muscle on
Speaker 1: same height, same weight. You know, female female got to eat,
Speaker 1: gotta eat, got to move, got to sleep, got to
Speaker 1: be a human, so Tiff might And even if they
Speaker 1: had the same genetics, right, which ain't going to happen,
Speaker 1: But and if they had the same genetics, but let's
Speaker 1: say Tiff had exponentially more muscle, well her BMR, I
Speaker 1: mean her just getting through the day with her normal activity,
Speaker 1: and you know BMR could be three thousand calories versus
Speaker 1: the other lady could be seventeen hundred, you know. And
Speaker 1: so yeah, that's the other thing is you want to
Speaker 1: keep you want to keep or build muscle as you
Speaker 1: get older. And I know we're taking a left turn,
Speaker 1: will come straight back, but you're listening to this and
Speaker 1: you're forty or older and you are not lifting weights
Speaker 1: or doing some strength training, then you are aging and
Speaker 1: deteriorating at a rate that you don't need to. And
Speaker 1: I'm not being melodramatic, but if you're not doing something
Speaker 1: to hold onto your muscle or grow muscle and improve
Speaker 1: bone density and function and mobility and all of these things,
Speaker 1: there's an absolute inevitability of decline at a certain ish rate.
Speaker 1: But what we know is when you know, like I
Speaker 1: don't know, like Kate, you're very fit and strong, TIFFs
Speaker 1: biological age in terms of strength would have to be
Speaker 1: like a twenty two year older lead athlete. Yeah, she's
Speaker 1: forty two, and that's not and I don't even I mean,
Speaker 1: you do have pretty good genetics, but but you train
Speaker 1: like a motherfucker. So that's it. And apart from you know,
Speaker 1: your cookie fetish, which we're putting you in therapy for.
Speaker 4: But you know, would you take your calmps from your
Speaker 4: cookie over your spaghetti bolonnais. I'd rather have the bowl
Speaker 4: of bolinn Ai sauce and then have the cookie later.
Speaker 1: She'd have both. That's the dumbest question.
Speaker 3: I don't know the amount.
Speaker 2: The thing is and I had to spend time realizing
Speaker 2: this myself. Is the changes I made gradually over the
Speaker 2: years towards a really great staple diet so that I
Speaker 2: could have cookies like that and just knock myself out.
Speaker 2: It's like I didn't acknowledge that along the way until
Speaker 2: I kind of looked at what other people ate all
Speaker 2: the time. I was like, oh, I'd never eat that.
Speaker 2: If I'm gonna eat that, I'm gonna have seven cookies.
Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, yes, yes, yeah, I hear you. Yeah, I
Speaker 3: do think like that.
Speaker 4: I like Vanilla s license, but I wouldn't sit down
Speaker 4: to like if I had Chinese, I wouldn't eat the
Speaker 4: whole bowl of rice as well as the I don't know,
Speaker 4: sizzling beef or whatever else, because if I wanted something Carby,
Speaker 4: I'd take it as my treat, not as my Yeah, anyway, what.
Speaker 1: About you the other Well, here's the other thing, right,
Speaker 1: None of us three are representative of the average punter,
Speaker 1: do you know what I mean. I'm not saying better
Speaker 1: or worse. I'm just saying, you know, we all work
Speaker 1: in the health at fitness Space, we're all professionals. We're
Speaker 1: all a little bit mental and obsessed. Us three da
Speaker 1: Let's be honest, you know, So the average person ain't
Speaker 1: no Kate sab or Tip or fatty Harps. Right, that's
Speaker 1: that's not the average person. So you've kind of got
Speaker 1: to look through the lens of somebody who doesn't think
Speaker 1: like you, or live like you, or to be able
Speaker 1: to understand a version of their reality. It's like, I'm
Speaker 1: fully aware when I talk about this to people that
Speaker 1: I need to try to understand what is an effort
Speaker 1: for them versus me, you know, because if I set
Speaker 1: my mind something, that's it. It's like I can literally
Speaker 1: change the fucking direction of my life in twenty four hours.
Speaker 1: That's just how my brain works. You know. I can
Speaker 1: have a realization and go, oh, I'm not doing that anymore,
Speaker 1: and then I don't do it anymore, like from that day.
Speaker 1: But most people, and that's not because I'm bloody specially
Speaker 1: or anything. That's just how my brain works. But anyway,
Speaker 1: you sent me a message today, oh.
Speaker 4: About the muscle though, you were saying, there's one important point.
Speaker 4: They say your volume of muscle in your body is
Speaker 4: directly related to your brain size. So if you are
Speaker 4: losing muscle unintentionally because you're going through rapid weight loss
Speaker 4: without a high protein diet and weight training a minimum
Speaker 4: of three times a week, you will be depleting your
Speaker 4: brain volume, not just your body. So damage is irrepairable
Speaker 4: if you don't do it well, and some people do
Speaker 4: do it well, but if you're going to put in
Speaker 4: that effort, you know, it's consistency and it's every day, and.
Speaker 1: People don't yet, You're absolutely correct. People don't realize even
Speaker 1: that lifting weights apart from the obvious, you know, bone
Speaker 1: density and strength and muscle and body composition. Also muscles
Speaker 1: metabolically active and so you know the same massive muscle
Speaker 1: versus fat muscle needs more calories so you can stay
Speaker 1: leaner with more muscle, which is a bonus. But also
Speaker 1: it's actually lifting weights in proves cognitive function, mood, dopamine production,
Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Like I yeah, I feel better every
Speaker 1: time I lift weights, and not just from the satisfaction
Speaker 1: that I did a thing, but literally my brain chemistry
Speaker 1: is different and I actually feel happier.
Speaker 4: There is actually a genetic predisposition as to whether you
Speaker 4: should weight train or more endurance, and I'm someone who
Speaker 4: gets more pleasure out of weight training according to this
Speaker 4: genetic traits.
Speaker 3: I've done the big comprehensive one.
Speaker 4: I love running, and I thought I was the euphoric runner,
Speaker 4: and that's where I got my dopemine. But genetically it's
Speaker 4: actually from weight training, which is interesting.
Speaker 3: So I like great weight training, but I didn't.
Speaker 4: Realize it's another way of that high that dopamine hit.
Speaker 1: You should have a look at some stage, Tiffany and
Speaker 1: Cook will tell you. So there's an organization called pH
Speaker 1: three sixty is that what they're called?
Speaker 4: I know?
Speaker 1: And doctor Cam McDonald from Queensland. You know him, doctor
Speaker 1: cam exos physiologists man about town. You'd like him, you too,
Speaker 1: should have a chat, you'd connect. But he developed this
Speaker 1: whole model him and a team of which tiff is
Speaker 1: a coach and more knowledgeable and qualified in this space.
Speaker 1: But basically where they look at how you should eat
Speaker 1: and train and kind of training and training times and
Speaker 1: types of food and the things that are going to
Speaker 1: relax you or not relax you, all based on is
Speaker 1: it five different smarter.
Speaker 2: Types, six health types and then within that a whole
Speaker 2: subset of different very amazing. Yeah, it's incredible.
Speaker 1: Can you just say the six health types.
Speaker 2: So there's an activator that's myself testosterone driven. There's activator
Speaker 2: guardian crusader, censor diplomat and connector.
Speaker 3: And what am I I feel like?
Speaker 1: Am I a hybrid?
Speaker 2: I feel yeah, I feel like you'd be like a
Speaker 2: guardian or a connector?
Speaker 3: Right, what does that mean? So it's a little bit,
Speaker 3: you know what it's like.
Speaker 2: It's it's it's like the what do they call those
Speaker 2: Miles Briggs tests or the oh yes, like a personality profile,
Speaker 2: but that also takes into account your biology and your
Speaker 2: physiology and it and a lot of it is based
Speaker 2: on the hormones that were predominant when you were an embryo,
Speaker 2: So how you developed, So what is your body built
Speaker 2: for so sort of exercise sprint training or strength training
Speaker 2: or endurance, which also then dictates obviously your personality traits.
Speaker 1: It's actually really interesting anyway. But so you sent me
Speaker 1: a message an email and said something like which was
Speaker 1: hilarious because you've never sent me any message like this,
Speaker 1: and I just kind of bring it up. I can't
Speaker 1: it's a bit boring on the show, but it said
Speaker 1: something like, Hi, Craig, I'm angry, and I'm like, oh fuck,
Speaker 1: what have I done? I know I make a lot
Speaker 1: of people that I'm like, well, god read on, Craig.
Speaker 1: But fortunately you weren't angry at me. Tell our listeners
Speaker 1: about the paper that you sent me and wherever you
Speaker 1: want to go, the research that's been done and what
Speaker 1: it tells us.
Speaker 4: So most people would know or you have spoken to
Speaker 4: I believe on your show.
Speaker 3: Professor Felice Jacko, who published The.
Speaker 4: Smiles Trials, So she's the point oh one most cited
Speaker 4: professor in the world. So her study for anyone who
Speaker 4: doesn't know what the Smiles trial is, looked at whether
Speaker 4: you do counseling or you change the diet for people
Speaker 4: with major depression anxiety. And in the counseling arm they
Speaker 4: got six or seven percent remission from major depression anxiety.
Speaker 4: But the people that changed their diet went onto a
Speaker 4: Mediterranean diet, got thirty two percent remission from major depression anxiety.
Speaker 4: She published that in twenty seventeen. I met her in
Speaker 4: twenty and nineteen.
Speaker 1: And too quick. So what you're saying is people with
Speaker 1: anxiety and depression, let's just slow it down. So ones
Speaker 1: that had fucking hell once, I'm like, you're like a
Speaker 1: robot bro. So the ones that had just therapy, yes,
Speaker 1: it was six or seven percent remission. So in other words,
Speaker 1: it kind of resolved itself. All was fixed or was.
Speaker 3: Seven percent of people yet resolved their.
Speaker 4: Major depression anxiety and it counts one yea.
Speaker 3: It was the placebo.
Speaker 4: It was talking to someone and option two was going
Speaker 4: on a Mediterranean style diet and the thirty two percent
Speaker 4: of people that were of the people that went on that,
Speaker 4: it's thirty two percent of them got remission or put
Speaker 4: their major depression anxiety on hold.
Speaker 3: I guess is the best way to say that's bloody amazing.
Speaker 1: Well, you think about versus thirty two, that's four and
Speaker 1: a half times four and a half times. Wow. If
Speaker 1: that was a drug, that would be very, very popular. Okay,
Speaker 1: so we got it right now? Yes, not for so far,
Speaker 1: Speedy Gonzales, yep. Okay.
Speaker 4: So then in twenty nineteen I met with Professor Felice
Speaker 4: Jakat and I talked about an idea of comparing whole
Speaker 4: foods as a meal replacement versus supplements as a meal replacement.
Speaker 3: And the reason I was interested.
Speaker 4: In this at the time I was working with a
Speaker 4: bariometric surgeon and the global standard around the world, not
Speaker 4: just in Australia, is to go on a meal replacement
Speaker 4: prior to weight loss surgery. Those meal replacements were one
Speaker 4: hundred percent a supplement based, so they were ready a
Speaker 4: chocolate shake or a chocolate bar, So they were completely synthetic, crude.
Speaker 3: Yeah, with vitamins and minerals.
Speaker 4: Now, that has been the gold standard for decades, decades
Speaker 4: and decades. There's lots of science on that, and I thought, well,
Speaker 4: why can't people do the same thing in the same
Speaker 4: macro nutrient.
Speaker 3: Profile but with whole food.
Speaker 4: And I wasn't very well supported with this idea because
Speaker 4: it hadn't been done before and there was no science,
Speaker 4: so it seemed dangerous.
Speaker 3: And I'm like, how can eating real food be.
Speaker 4: More dangerous than taking a man made product with a
Speaker 4: label on it that tells us this is what's in it.
Speaker 4: And it really got me thinking, just because we put
Speaker 4: it in a packet and we told someone what the
Speaker 4: macros were, does that mean that's something someone should be eating?
Speaker 4: You know that set that we made it, We put
Speaker 4: a sticker on it, you should eat it?
Speaker 3: Well should I?
Speaker 4: Well?
Speaker 1: Who knows?
Speaker 3: Actually?
Speaker 4: So we made this whole food version of this, and
Speaker 4: needless to say, it took six years. So in October
Speaker 4: twenty first, twenty twenty five, I see on Professor Police
Speaker 4: Jacker's social media that this study has been published.
Speaker 3: So what they found was there.
Speaker 4: Was two groups of people and they were randomized to
Speaker 4: either going on the supplement diet or the whole food
Speaker 4: vled very low energy diet. So at eight to nine
Speaker 4: hundred calorie diet, these diets were matched for calories, they
Speaker 4: were matched for carbs, proteins, fats.
Speaker 3: Micros, macros, they were completely matched.
Speaker 4: Over the three weeks, both groups of people lost the
Speaker 4: same amount of weight, which is not overly surprising because
Speaker 4: if you think of calories and macros, that should make sense.
Speaker 4: But what was really surprising was the group that lost
Speaker 4: the weight on food versus supplements retained more lean body mass,
Speaker 4: so their gluteal muscle was maintained, whereas the gluteal or
Speaker 4: the butt muscle was lost on the people who took
Speaker 4: the supplement instead of the meal diet.
Speaker 3: The second thing was gut microbiome diversity.
Speaker 4: So there was a huge increase in diversity in the
Speaker 4: people that went on the food and there was actually
Speaker 4: a decrease. It was called a non significant decrease because
Speaker 4: it didn't.
Speaker 3: Meet the zero zero point five P factor.
Speaker 4: What is that you do, but it was a decline
Speaker 4: in gut microbiome diversity as opposed to an increase, and
Speaker 4: there was actually species forty five beneficial species found in
Speaker 4: the people that increased or they did the food instead
Speaker 4: of the supplement, and those bacteria have been linked to
Speaker 4: things like reducing inflammation, improving cholesterol profile, which is then
Speaker 4: linked to a reduced risk of cardiovascular disease as well,
Speaker 4: amongst lots of other things. Now, the third finding, so
Speaker 4: the first one's muscle mass, second one's gut microbiome. The
Speaker 4: third one is leptin stability. So leptin is our hunger hormone.
Speaker 4: It's secreted by fat cells, and it's supposed to tell
Speaker 4: us that we're full if we have lots of fat
Speaker 4: cells on board. What typically was thought to happen when
Speaker 4: people went on a rapid weight loss diet, their leptin
Speaker 4: would become unstable, meaning their appetite would go through the roofs.
Speaker 4: So once they stopped the diet, they would have this
Speaker 4: huge appetite and then they'd eat more food, gain the weight,
Speaker 4: and maybe be bigger than where they started. So on
Speaker 4: the supplement group, they found the leptin became really unstable,
Speaker 4: which would lead to perhaps people then gorging after the
Speaker 4: diet and regaining the weight that they'd lost over this period.
Speaker 3: So the average weight.
Speaker 4: Loss was between I think let's call it five five kilos.
Speaker 4: It was somewhere between four kilos and six and a
Speaker 4: half kilos. But the people that did it with food
Speaker 4: actually had stable liptin levels, so their appetite was controlled
Speaker 4: after the weight loss.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that doesn't surprise me at all. And the
Speaker 1: fact that the fact that people are using a meal replacement,
Speaker 1: which is a synthetically produced you know, wad of powder
Speaker 1: in a can or a box or a you know,
Speaker 1: a thing that looks like a chocolate bar, and then
Speaker 1: and then suggesting that your idea of well, let's have
Speaker 1: whatever calories are in that can or that bar. Let's
Speaker 1: just do a whole food so we've got similar micros
Speaker 1: and macros or identical micros and macros, same amount of energy,
Speaker 1: but instead of a powder or a bar that got
Speaker 1: produced in a fucking factory, let's have like shit that's
Speaker 1: like action made, that's actually had a life, and let's
Speaker 1: you know, if that's whatever, if that's an animal or
Speaker 1: plant product. But the fact that they said that seems
Speaker 1: dangerous I'm like, what, how is that dangerous?
Speaker 4: So this is not the professors who did the study
Speaker 4: thinking it's dangerous. This is the medical community. And now
Speaker 4: I understand how science works a little bit more, because
Speaker 4: if there is no science to support your idea, you
Speaker 4: can't do it.
Speaker 3: Now.
Speaker 4: Science costs a lot of money, takes many, many years
Speaker 4: to do, and who is going to fund whole foods
Speaker 4: when it's pretty hard to make a lot of money
Speaker 4: out of bloody kiwifruits and carrots. Someone's got to grow them,
Speaker 4: and you know it's never going to get cheap. There
Speaker 4: is no way to just pump them out.
Speaker 3: Of a factory.
Speaker 4: Whereas a synthetic food you get scale, you get volume,
Speaker 4: you get machines, you get ai robots. You don't need humans,
Speaker 4: you don't even need food in it. You can make
Speaker 4: it up. You can do chemical copies of these things.
Speaker 4: So the science wasn't there. And the surprising thing is
Speaker 4: this was the world's first study comparing a whole food,
Speaker 4: very low calorie diet to a supplement based very low
Speaker 4: calorie diet. Even though all of the science supports very
Speaker 4: low calorie diets done with supplements, nobody had studied the
Speaker 4: other side of it, so I.
Speaker 3: Just thought it was crazy.
Speaker 4: So then when they've gone to get it published, it's
Speaker 4: taken a couple of years, and I don't know if
Speaker 4: that's normal, but to.
Speaker 3: Me, I was like, wouldn't a journal jump on this?
Speaker 4: And eventually it has been has been published in sal
Speaker 4: Medical Journal, which is an incredible journal.
Speaker 3: Made by the people that make the Lancet.
Speaker 4: The best journals in the world. But it took a
Speaker 4: long long time to get published. And when I've approached
Speaker 4: different networks to speak about this study, I've been declined
Speaker 4: being able to speak about it because the station are
Speaker 4: sponsored by of course, of course, and so they won't
Speaker 4: talk about it. It will affect their sponsorship contracts. Therefore,
Speaker 4: humans and not allowed to know that if you eat
Speaker 4: real food you will be more successful than supplements because
Speaker 4: the supplement pays for the station.
Speaker 3: So you cannot talk about that. This is science.
Speaker 4: Done by a university, not we have not done the science.
Speaker 4: It's not beefit food, it's not necessarily it's not you know,
Speaker 4: it's no one.
Speaker 3: No one owns this. The university and the staff own this.
Speaker 1: That's an ongoing challenge. Kate is like, and there are
Speaker 1: you know, there are many, many, many instances of this
Speaker 1: where there would be some fucking amazing research. But if
Speaker 1: the theory or the hypothesis proves to be true, then
Speaker 1: that's going to cost someone a lot of money. And
Speaker 1: as you know, to do the research, to run the research,
Speaker 1: to do all the testing, to get ethical approval, all
Speaker 1: of that takes money. And who's going to finance that? Yeah,
Speaker 1: when you know some massive organization, profit driven organization, which
Speaker 1: is how the world works. I'm not mad at profit everyone,
Speaker 1: I'm not mad at commercialism. You know, we've got sponsors,
Speaker 1: I get it. But yeah, this like ethical research ironically
Speaker 1: versus you know, commercially interested research, commercially driven research. I
Speaker 1: mean you think you harken back. In fact, I spoke
Speaker 1: about this briefly today at my gig in the city.
Speaker 1: I can't remember exactly who, but who the sponsors were,
Speaker 1: but Ansel Keys when he did what was called the
Speaker 1: twenty one country study or twenty eight country I forget,
Speaker 1: and it ended up being where he eliminated the bulk
Speaker 1: of the data that basically.
Speaker 3: Didn't support his hypothesis.
Speaker 1: In bodies I proved that his theory was bullshit, and
Speaker 1: then he kind of scraped some a couple of some
Speaker 1: data together to try to like all of the stuff
Speaker 1: that didn't support his hypothesis, which was most of it
Speaker 1: he eliminated. So they just pretended that didn't happen. And
Speaker 1: then they, because they were funded either by the wheat
Speaker 1: wheat industry or sugar industry or maybe both, you know,
Speaker 1: they came up with this whole low you know, low
Speaker 1: fat eating equals low fat humans and whole theory. And
Speaker 1: then we saw with that, which was all financially driven,
Speaker 1: we saw an absolute correlation, if not causation between the
Speaker 1: incidents of obesity. When the obesity started to climb and
Speaker 1: the low fat eating began was basically the same fucking day.
Speaker 1: So and this is the thing, and this is why
Speaker 1: I think, you know, and I feel a bit weird
Speaker 1: saying this sometimes, but like I say to people, if
Speaker 1: you want to listen to my research and my PhD
Speaker 1: in my findings or you don't, I understand that. But
Speaker 1: here's the thing, Like, there's no financial incentive for me.
Speaker 1: I didn't care what the outcome was. I don't care.
Speaker 1: I'm not financially incentivized to produce a specific result. I
Speaker 1: just wanted to see what the research would tell us, right,
Speaker 1: But there is a lot of research done where that
Speaker 1: university or that team, they are dependent on the financial
Speaker 1: support of the people who are getting or who are
Speaker 1: very interested in the outcome of the research.
Speaker 3: Or they won't get out of funding, will they will?
Speaker 1: And I mean, like people think that science is this
Speaker 1: flawless fucking thing. And while the intentions, I think for
Speaker 1: the most part are good, and I think most science
Speaker 1: is somewhere in the ballpark of ethical, but you've got
Speaker 1: to remember that all science is run by scientists. All
Speaker 1: scientists are human. All universities that I know of are
Speaker 1: profit driven. You know, they make money, They charge people
Speaker 1: to be there. They've got enormous bills. I don't know
Speaker 1: UNI's not for profit anyway, but you know, it's like
Speaker 1: where money and profit is involved, it's very rare we're
Speaker 1: going to get this kind of totally ethical objective, no
Speaker 1: influence from any external kind of force research.
Speaker 4: So there's one side of it why we might not
Speaker 4: get the research. But let's say this research that you
Speaker 4: dream of has been done, Nobody will bloody read it.
Speaker 3: It's not the Herald Sun or the Age or the frickin'
Speaker 3: you project podcast.
Speaker 4: There is no journal that the average person subscribes to.
Speaker 3: They can't even read it.
Speaker 4: Like you said, the study was eight hundred pages long.
Speaker 4: Sorry I couldn't read it before the podcast. Like people
Speaker 4: aren't reading journals. If news reporters and people that are
Speaker 4: in the media won't talk about it, what's the point
Speaker 4: of doing the bloody study after all?
Speaker 3: Because it's been buried.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that is, I mean, yeah, so you're doing it.
Speaker 1: You're doing what you can. We're doing what we can.
Speaker 1: But it's it's and that's probably not going to go
Speaker 1: away anytime soon. And I think, you know, what people
Speaker 1: get to you know, even like I think the University
Speaker 1: of South Australia at the end of twenty twenty three,
Speaker 1: I think was did to study UNSA UNISA did a
Speaker 1: study looking at the efficacy of exercise versus antidepressants for
Speaker 1: people with depression. And of course I'm going to tell
Speaker 1: you that, you know, the exercise outperformed the drugs by
Speaker 1: a fucking outstanding a margin and percentage, and that got
Speaker 1: about seven seconds of media coverage because it's an incredibly
Speaker 1: profitable industry. And by the way, of course, I mean,
Speaker 1: you know, go for a run or go lift weights
Speaker 1: or versus take a pill. Well, I'll just take the pill.
Speaker 1: It's not as good, but it's you know, and look,
Speaker 1: and there's no judgment in that, I understand it. But
Speaker 1: when you go, this thing that you can do is
Speaker 1: better than any pill on the planet, any medication you
Speaker 1: can take. There is nothing as good as this protocol.
Speaker 1: It just happens to be called exercise.
Speaker 4: Alongside with the diet, with the smiles trial. You put
Speaker 4: the diet in the exercise together.
Speaker 1: Yep, yep, yep yep. And like you think about, like
Speaker 1: what is a pill? It's something you're putting in your body.
Speaker 1: What is And this is not an ad for Beefit
Speaker 1: Foods anyone. I don't. I'm not sponsored by Kate. And
Speaker 1: even when Kate sent me an email, shit, I don't
Speaker 1: even care if we don't talk about our company. But
Speaker 1: whether or not you put beef fit foods or you
Speaker 1: put one in two it's cookies, or you put a
Speaker 1: fucking pill in your body or whatever, it's something you're ingesting.
Speaker 1: And so there's going to be a reaction. There's going
Speaker 1: to be a physiological consequence, there's going to be an interaction.
Speaker 1: It's going to work well, it's not going to work.
Speaker 1: It's going to make no difference. It's going to make
Speaker 1: a lot of difference. So too, when you do something
Speaker 1: to your body, I am going to lift weights that's
Speaker 1: interacting with your physiology. Well, I'm going to go for
Speaker 1: a run that's interacting with your physiology. You're doing something
Speaker 1: to that thing that you live in, and there's going
Speaker 1: to be an outcome. It could be good, it could
Speaker 1: be inert it could be significant, insignificant, it could be
Speaker 1: fucking mind blowing. You know, I know hundreds of people
Speaker 1: who physically and mentally and emotionally are better than they
Speaker 1: used to be by a long time, a long way
Speaker 1: because they just work out whereas they didn't used to
Speaker 1: work out, And they're not Jim junkies, and they're not obsessed,
Speaker 1: and they're not weirdos, and they I train four hours
Speaker 1: a day. They just do their little thirty to sixty
Speaker 1: minutes of something every day. But they're consistent, and their
Speaker 1: depression's gone or it's less, their anxiety is gone or
Speaker 1: it's less. And I'm not talking about four people I know.
Speaker 1: I'm talking about fucking hundreds of people. Over the years
Speaker 1: that I've been doing this and not only that, relationships
Speaker 1: get better, confidence get better, energy gets better, interactions get better,
Speaker 1: work gets better, because now I've done this thing to
Speaker 1: my body and it all works better. And when my
Speaker 1: body works better, my emotional system works better, my brain
Speaker 1: works better, My fucking life is better, you know. So
Speaker 1: now I'm on my side box. It's true, though, isn't it.
Speaker 3: Oh, it's so true. It's so true, and I must think.
Speaker 4: The main time this happened for me is after I'd
Speaker 4: given birth to my first child, and you have.
Speaker 3: Sleep deprived, I'm trying to run.
Speaker 4: I only had one business at this stay, but I
Speaker 4: had twenty three stuff and I'd gone downstairs because my
Speaker 4: baby had not stopped screaming for two and a half
Speaker 4: hours and I hadn't slept, and I took the carrier
Speaker 4: with me, and I put her in the carry out
Speaker 4: and I put on my headphones, and I got on
Speaker 4: the treadmill and I ran it fifteen kilometers an hour
Speaker 4: until I felt like I actually started bawling my eyes out,
Speaker 4: crying because at the moment that I took my baby downstairs,
Speaker 4: I could not feel love for that child anymore, because
Speaker 4: I was breaking, I was tearing apart with what I
Speaker 4: look back on might have felt like, might have been
Speaker 4: postnatal depression.
Speaker 3: I don't know.
Speaker 4: It was just no sleep, screaming child, and pressure upon
Speaker 4: pressure for work. And I know that within I can't
Speaker 4: run fifteen kilometers an hour on the treadmill very long,
Speaker 4: so it probably was no longer than a couple of minutes.
Speaker 4: I got off there, balling my eyes out, feeling so
Speaker 4: grateful for my baby, and I realized that I hadn't
Speaker 4: exercised for six weeks or something since having the baby,
Speaker 4: and I needed that chemical I needed that hit from
Speaker 4: the treadmill to make me feel normal.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Wow, that's a good story, dude. Well, think about
Speaker 1: like everything that we do to our body creates a
Speaker 1: chemical biochemical response. Like laughter changes what's going on in
Speaker 1: your brain. Laughter changes what's happening in your nervous system,
Speaker 1: changes what's happening in your gut, changes what's happening with
Speaker 1: your bloody immune system. It's like that's just laughing.
Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, you know, And then there's sunshine, and then
Speaker 5: there's quality sleep, and then there's somebody. Then there's tip
Speaker 5: line on the floor with a fucking furry friends. You know.
Speaker 1: It's like, I mean there are so many things, great
Speaker 1: things that we can do to our body and for
Speaker 1: our body that don't require a pill, which did not
Speaker 1: say you know, medication doesn't have a place. Definitely does yeah,
Speaker 1: but it's like, yeah, well it's you know, what's going
Speaker 1: on with you?
Speaker 6: And is there another option other than that thing in
Speaker 6: that container?
Speaker 4: Absolutely, And like you said at the start, there's probably
Speaker 4: a lot of people listening that are on a weight
Speaker 4: loss medication. And the thing is we need to support
Speaker 4: them because they've taken action, they've done something, but a
Speaker 4: lot of them are missing the education that goes with
Speaker 4: that pill, the weight training minimum three times a week
Speaker 4: and eating perfectly portioned, high protein, nutrient dense, fiber rich foods.
Speaker 4: Otherwise I'll be constipated as hell, lose a heap of
Speaker 4: muscle mass, and have no energy and no micronutrients. So
Speaker 4: the hair will fall out, their nails are turned to crap,
Speaker 4: the skin will turn to crap, and their brain won't work.
Speaker 4: So the people that have taken that step, good on them.
Speaker 4: But know that that's script comes with a lifestyle script.
Speaker 4: And if you have not been given that lifestyle script,
Speaker 4: pedestal back to Cray to make sure that he's reminding
Speaker 4: people that. On every episode, I hear you talk about
Speaker 4: exercise and food and health and sleep and sunshine all
Speaker 4: the time, and they need to be hearing this because.
Speaker 3: It's not optional. You put that pill in your body,
Speaker 3: it is not optional.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're going to wind up, I know. But
Speaker 1: this is what I do. I go, what's the best
Speaker 1: thing I can do for my body? And then I
Speaker 1: do that. I do that. Yeah, you know, I go, oh,
Speaker 1: is this better than that? Yeah, well that's better. Well
Speaker 1: I'll do that then.
Speaker 4: And people that are injured, what would you say. I'd say,
Speaker 4: do the things that you can do. It's like people
Speaker 4: go to me, I've got a ninja and ankle.
Speaker 1: Well, I go, I can give you fucking six hundred
Speaker 1: exercises that you don't need your own. So next, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like if you and look, it's not about like yesterday,
Speaker 1: I had to drive for five hours. I had to
Speaker 1: go see my parents then take them up. I had
Speaker 1: just had a mental day and it was just, you know,
Speaker 1: crazy busy, and it was a strength training day for me.
Speaker 1: And I got home at stupid o'clock and I was
Speaker 1: fucked and I went, I'm having a day off, right,
Speaker 1: But it's a conscious decision and it's not like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm being lazy or I'm being soft. It's like, well, Craig,
Speaker 1: you've been You've done a million things. I'd already walked
Speaker 1: my ten thousand steps for the day, dah da da da,
Speaker 1: and I just went, ah, I'm not doing it. And
Speaker 1: then just before before we did this, I walked to
Speaker 1: the gym down the one close by me in Hampton
Speaker 1: and I just lifted some shit. Felt great, and I'm back.
Speaker 1: You know, it's not about being obsessed, like you're gonna
Speaker 1: have days off, You're gonna have You're gonna have meals
Speaker 1: where you go. I'm going out and it's my Whoever's
Speaker 1: party on Saturday, and I'm gonna cut lose a little bit.
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be a maniac, but I'm gonna yeah, great, great,
Speaker 1: but don't cut loose for the week. You know. It's
Speaker 1: like it's like just trying to build a healthy relationship
Speaker 1: with your body, but also making healthy and practical choices
Speaker 1: in real time as we navigate you know, being humans, Yeah,
Speaker 1: navigate being a human? Where can people find you and
Speaker 1: follow you?
Speaker 4: Kate hate save on LinkedIn or Instagram or beefitfood dot
Speaker 4: coms that you or around, beef it Food Australia Instagram.
Speaker 1: And Kate didn't ask me to do this, but I've
Speaker 1: had quite a few of her meals and they are
Speaker 1: fucking great. So if you're in that space and you
Speaker 1: think I don't know which ones to get, like because
Speaker 1: there's so many and this, so you can buy like
Speaker 1: meals that look like, oh, this is healthy and then
Speaker 1: run out by Bucks and it's like, ah, I say
Speaker 1: what because I'm embarrassed. I wasn't going to tell you this,
Speaker 1: but fuck it, I bought. I bought a couple of
Speaker 1: things that kind of looked I'm like, oh, this is
Speaker 1: not bad. It's like a bit of chicken. I got it.
Speaker 1: I don't know what the chicken was, but it wasn't
Speaker 1: fucking chicken.
Speaker 6: It was chickenish. It was chicken ish. I'm like, this
Speaker 6: ain't chicken. This is like chicken flavored something. And the
Speaker 6: amount of it was like chicken and rice sate or
Speaker 6: something like that. Well, let's say the thing weighed four
Speaker 6: hundred grams, there would have been twenty grams of chicken
Speaker 6: in there, chicks around eighty grams of rice and this
Speaker 6: horrible sauce. I'm like, and that's why I don't buy
Speaker 6: this anyway.
Speaker 4: It's called value apparently because they weigh it by the
Speaker 4: gram in the supermarket, and the heavier it is, the
Speaker 4: higher value it is, and it goes down, down, down. Wow,
Speaker 4: fill up the trolley for less.
Speaker 1: Yeah, boom, Tiff, it's been great.
Speaker 2: Thanks Harper. Shout out to Beefit Foods, Protein Bulls. They're
Speaker 2: real good. I ate all seven in the one day.
Speaker 2: They come in a box of seven.
Speaker 3: It'd be good for your gut.
Speaker 4: House launched cookie and providing you'll probably be on the toilet.
Speaker 1: I've never had I've never had one, but I mean,
Speaker 1: feel free to just shuffle some way. We'll say goodbye.
Speaker 1: Thanks Kate.
Speaker 3: Thanks