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Speaker 1: Andrew Carpento. I've spoken to him a number of times

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Speaker 1: on the program. He is certainly concerned with child sexual

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Speaker 1: abuse and has worked with people to garner to have

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Speaker 1: the government take in the superannuation of convicted offenders to

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Speaker 1: be used as compensation for those affected by this. Heenus

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Speaker 1: crime and he regularly every week will put up figures

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Speaker 1: of child sex abuse cases on his Instagram page and

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Speaker 1: it tragically it's high enough as it is. It sits

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Speaker 1: at around twenty to thirty percent usually, but today he

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Speaker 1: had a look at the list last Friday and posted

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Speaker 1: today forty eight point two seven percent of people charged

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Speaker 1: with crimes in the district court in South Australia forty

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Speaker 1: eight point twenty seven percent relate to the sexual abuse

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Speaker 1: of a child. And that is just untenable in this society.

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Speaker 1: I would say, let's have a chat with child protection

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Speaker 1: expert unis a professor Elsbeth McGinnis, professor, good morning, thank

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Speaker 1: you for your time.

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Speaker 2: Oh that's the pleasure. Thank you.

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Speaker 1: That's a horrendous number. One in two cases effectively.

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Speaker 2: Absolutely, but don't forget. It tells us something about how

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Speaker 2: the criminal justice system responds to these cases, and it

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Speaker 2: also tells us something about the prevalence of this kind

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Speaker 2: of crime in our communities, and there's work to be

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Speaker 2: done on both sides of that fence. It's really shocking

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Speaker 2: and terrible.

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Speaker 1: As you say, what happens at this point is the

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Speaker 1: government alerted When police, I presume, and police charge someone

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Speaker 1: with a crime like this, the Department of Child Protection

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Speaker 1: is notified.

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Speaker 2: Look the protocols of communication around evidence and investigation with

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Speaker 2: chart Protection and police as a matter of course, so

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Speaker 2: you know that would normally have happened in the lead

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Speaker 2: up to criminal charges being laid because Chart Protection are

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Speaker 2: often bound up in the processes of investigation alongside police.

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Speaker 1: It points to the fact something is seriously wrong in society,

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Speaker 1: doesn't it. Children are vulnerable and are being preyed on absolutely.

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Speaker 2: And as we've been hearing in their politics and the media,

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Speaker 2: social media is strongly implicated in this. It provides a

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Speaker 2: gateway to children for identification and grooming by offenders online

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Speaker 2: and that can these days with AI, crimes can be

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Speaker 2: committed without actually physical contact of any sort between the

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Speaker 2: victim and the offender. We've seen it happen with people

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Speaker 2: having their images inserted over pornographic images, etc. Through to

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Speaker 2: actually meeting up with children or gaining access to them

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Speaker 2: and physically offending against them. One of the problems, of course,

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Speaker 2: is the ubiquity of social media and the ubiquity of screens,

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Speaker 2: which has led to a whole expansion of opportunities to

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Speaker 2: produce child sexual exploitation material, both getting access to children

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Speaker 2: but also being able to disseminate it through global networks

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Speaker 2: on the dark web, and of course there are elements

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Speaker 2: of capitalization making money of producing child sexy exploitation material,

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Speaker 2: So there is this explosion that is part of the

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Speaker 2: technology of our current society. On the other hand, that

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Speaker 2: very willingness to commit horrendous images of offending on screen

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Speaker 2: has in fact increased detection of offenders who have child

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Speaker 2: exploitation digitally recorded. It's no longer relying on some poor

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Speaker 2: little kid being expected to have their voice survail against

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Speaker 2: an important and admired offender. It's look is located on

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Speaker 2: his phone. He's got it on his computer. So in

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Speaker 2: a sense, the flip side of the digital revolution is

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Speaker 2: that they're much more accessible as bang.

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Speaker 1: To right now they say, yeah, they're implicating themselves with that.

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Speaker 1: You know, this comes to the heart what you said

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Speaker 1: at the beginning about the ease of the technology comes

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Speaker 1: to the heart of what the Social Media Summit hopes

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Speaker 1: to achieve, the one held last week, and that is

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Speaker 1: to raise the age of children on social media.

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Speaker 2: Yes, well, that of course has all of its a

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Speaker 2: whole range of pitfalls, and the continuum extends through to

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Speaker 2: platforms putting in age verification procedures. And of course the

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Speaker 2: problem is if you remove social media altogether and then

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Speaker 2: there's no opportunity to learn how to use it, how

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Speaker 2: to be critical of it, how to manage it safely.

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Speaker 2: In a sense, you're stopping that capacity and it's an

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Speaker 2: important set of learnings to help people get through the

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Speaker 2: perils and the affordances of social media. So there's that

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Speaker 2: end of the spectrum of consideration rather than a complete

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Speaker 2: bann And parallels have also been drawn between the fact

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Speaker 2: that we will pop children who are ten years old

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Speaker 2: in jail in some jurisdictions when they are experimenting with

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Speaker 2: the world and playing out what's happening in their lives.

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Speaker 2: But we're saying, well, you can't go on social media

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Speaker 2: till you're in your late teens, And there's a huge

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Speaker 2: discrepancy there in how we see the vulnerability and development

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Speaker 2: of children and why there is that huge difference in

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Speaker 2: the age we're prepared to throw them in jail as

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Speaker 2: opposed to educating them in social media. So we have

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Speaker 2: a bit of work to do, I think as a

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Speaker 2: society around how we see children and how we protect

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Speaker 2: them and the evidence, as you say, it's pretty clear

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Speaker 2: that too many children are in fact not being protected

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Speaker 2: and are being sexually exploited, and we've got to address

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Speaker 2: that end of the equation as well, and how to

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Speaker 2: suppose There has been research that shown by Professor Michael

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Speaker 2: Salter in the University of New South Wales, but I

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Speaker 2: think up into one in ten men in our society

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Speaker 2: have an engagement with the sexual exploitation of children. Material

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Speaker 2: that's huge and why is that happening? And how do

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Speaker 2: we work with those people who may become offenders to

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Speaker 2: change that behavior and in the process protect children. So

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Speaker 2: I think we we've got a lot of work to

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Speaker 2: do as a society here.

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Speaker 1: I'm forty eight point two percent that should make the

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Speaker 1: government set up and take note. I don't know how

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Speaker 1: many people that is, but I imagine because some every

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Speaker 1: day there's never a day where it's zero. So if

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Speaker 1: it's twenty fifty per week, I mean that shouldn't be

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Speaker 1: any of course, but that many per week, it's incredible,

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Speaker 1: and the government needs to just pay attention. I don't

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Speaker 1: know what they can do beyond what policies are in place,

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Speaker 1: but that is ridiculous that that number today.

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Speaker 2: Well, they have in fact just increased the I think

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Speaker 2: indefinite imprisonment for sex offenders child sex offenders. So they have,

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Speaker 2: as I understand, been happening the legislation in ways that

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Speaker 2: has in fact created some controversy in legal circles because

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Speaker 2: it is an intrusion of government into you know, the

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Speaker 2: rule of law and its ability to determine things. So

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Speaker 2: they have been increasing penalties, and you know, there's a

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Speaker 2: bit of a debate as to whether that in fact

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Speaker 2: makes a difference. I'm not sure that it necessarily follows

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Speaker 2: that people are always thinking of penalties when they commit crimes,

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Speaker 2: but you know, it is very concerning, and I think

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Speaker 2: we need to look at our human services for people

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Speaker 2: who are experiencing addictions to screen material, which may include

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Speaker 2: child text exploitation material. But of course people can get

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Speaker 2: addicted to gambling, to adult pornography, to all sorts of things.

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Speaker 2: But do we have the workforce of therapists who can

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Speaker 2: work with people with these addictions? Are they affordable and

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Speaker 2: accessible to people? Do they know that they're there? I

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Speaker 2: mean all it seems to me that we've got to

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Speaker 2: work on all sides of this sort of social problem

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Speaker 2: and not You know, child protection and police are two

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Speaker 2: key agencies, certainly, but it's these people. And I suspect

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Speaker 2: a lot of it is technology based, because we're still

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Speaker 2: really bad at listening to the voices of actual children.

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Speaker 2: But we will believe at computer screen and a device

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Speaker 2: with things loaded onto it, and I suspect that's where

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Speaker 2: we are seeing a lot more evidence that is accepted

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Speaker 2: by courts. But it's evidence that we have a math

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Speaker 2: of social problems in our society around the desire for

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Speaker 2: child exploitation material will stop, and we need to we

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Speaker 2: need to have the have services for people who are

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Speaker 2: expressing those kinds of desires and inclinations as to how

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Speaker 2: they can manage their lives differently.

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Speaker 1: Indeed, appreciate your time this morning, professor, Thank.

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Speaker 2: You, Thank you, Professor.

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Speaker 1: Professor Elsbeth mcinni's Child Protection expert at Uni Sa