Speaker 1: From Schwartz Media. I'm Michael Williams filling in for Daniel
Speaker 1: and Ruby. This is seven AM. Just a week after
Speaker 1: taking charge in the wake of the liberals disastrous election result,
Speaker 1: Opposition leader Susan Lee now finds herself without a coalition partner.
Speaker 1: National's leader David Little Proud says he walked from the
Speaker 1: agreement after the Liberals refuse to lock in a list
Speaker 1: of requests, while Lee insists she won't let her party
Speaker 1: be held hostage to unreasonable demands. The split is a
Speaker 1: setback for the Liberals, but it may be worse for
Speaker 1: the National Party, who won less than four percent of
Speaker 1: the primary vote at the last election. Today's special correspondent
Speaker 1: for the Saturday Paper, Jason Cootsukus, on why the coalition
Speaker 1: broke up and what it'll take to bring them back together.
Speaker 1: It's Thursday, May twenty two.
Speaker 2: And thank you for coming here today. Since the devastating
Speaker 2: defeat and my reelection as leader of the National Party
Speaker 2: and Susan Lee, the leader of the Liberal Party, we
Speaker 2: have set out on a journey of trying to reshape
Speaker 2: a carlistion agreement.
Speaker 1: Now, Jason, one of the things you learn as you've
Speaker 1: become an adult. Is how hard it is to see
Speaker 1: a relationship that you thought was forever suddenly in ashes,
Speaker 1: breaking up unexpectedly, and you have to talk through that
Speaker 1: with your friends and counsel them in all kinds of
Speaker 1: different ways. Jason, you were in Parliament House when David
Speaker 1: little Proud fronted the cameras and said the Nationals would
Speaker 1: and I quote sit alone on a principal basis, that's
Speaker 1: a pretty cold breakup. Take us into that moment. Did
Speaker 1: anyone see it coming?
Speaker 3: Well, it certainly was a cult breakup, and they certainly
Speaker 3: gave us the impression that, you know, mummy and Daddy
Speaker 3: needed to spend some time apart and do some soul searching.
Speaker 2: I got to say, when I had a meeting with
Speaker 2: Susan and Lessen half an hour ago, the dignity that
Speaker 2: she showed in how she took this and how she
Speaker 2: sees a way forward was a reaffirment that this is
Speaker 2: an opportunity to reset ourselves and to do that in
Speaker 2: an environment where we can. I think that's important. There's
Speaker 2: no animosity, there's no angst, there's no hate. It's one
Speaker 2: predicator on respect and understanding, and I think that is
Speaker 2: the position that we'll go forward to.
Speaker 3: The day before. Though on Monday afternoon there were signs
Speaker 3: that the negotiations weren't going well and we were hearing
Speaker 3: that it was a very real possibility that a coalition
Speaker 3: agreement would not be signed, and those rumors gathered a
Speaker 3: momentum on Tuesday morning when there was a story in
Speaker 3: the Australian Financial Review. Actually the story led the paper
Speaker 3: on Tuesday morning saying that a split was on the cards,
Speaker 3: but we didn't really know for sure until that confirmation
Speaker 3: finally came through. And despite the rumors that we'd been hearing,
Speaker 3: it still was a big surprise to us that they
Speaker 3: had actually decided to go their own separate ways.
Speaker 1: What did David Littlebrowd say with the sticking points the
Speaker 1: maid negotiations with Susan Lee and the Liberal Party collapse
Speaker 1: entirely well.
Speaker 3: David Little Proud said negotiations had collapsed because the Nationals
Speaker 3: had insisted that the new coalition agreement lock in our
Speaker 3: five specific guarantees, and the Nationals non negotiables were ongoing
Speaker 3: support for that nuclear power policy that the coalition had
Speaker 3: taken to the May three election. They wanted the Liberal
Speaker 3: Party to continue to support a policy to grant the
Speaker 3: government divestiture powers to break up major supermarkets if they
Speaker 3: abused their market dominance. The Nationals also insisted on a
Speaker 3: twenty billion dollar Regional Australia Future Fund to bankroll low
Speaker 3: long term regional infrastructure and jobs in regional Australia. They
Speaker 3: also wanted to guarantee baseline telecommunications services in the Bush.
Speaker 2: Those thought include in a universal service obligation. These were
Speaker 2: positions that we made very clear to Susan and I think.
Speaker 3: There was also a fifth demand, although this was one
Speaker 3: that was sought by the Liberals, and that was a
Speaker 3: guarantee of shadow cabinet solidarity. So essentially, if the Shadow
Speaker 3: Cabinet comes to a decision on a policy or other
Speaker 3: kind of political issue, then the Liberals are saying that
Speaker 3: all Shadow Cabinet members have got to be prepared to
Speaker 3: go out and support that decision, regardless of whether or
Speaker 3: not they supported it in the Shadow Cabinet meeting. The
Speaker 3: Nationals apparently didn't agree to that. They wanted the freedom
Speaker 3: for National members of the Shadow Cabinet to cast conscience
Speaker 3: votes on contentious coalition policies, and I think the most
Speaker 3: obvious one is this policy or the commit the coalition
Speaker 3: has made to have net zero emissions by twenty fifty.
Speaker 3: A lot of Nationals don't support that policy. They'll want
Speaker 3: to dump it, and I guess that's why they insisted
Speaker 3: on having this kind of provision to have a conscious
Speaker 3: vote in shadow cabinet, which is really unprecedented and unreasonable
Speaker 3: in my view, and I think Susan Lee did absolutely
Speaker 3: the right thing in not caving into that demand and
Speaker 3: the other demands that the Nationals made.
Speaker 1: So we know how the negotiations are ended, but what
Speaker 1: are you hearing about how they played out behind closed doors?
Speaker 1: Did they begin cordially enough?
Speaker 3: Well, I think the negotiations were cordial, but what really
Speaker 3: stands out to me is the rush that the Nationals
Speaker 3: seemed to be in to want to lock the Liberal
Speaker 3: Party into these policy commitments. Last week, of course, we
Speaker 3: saw Susan Lee elected as the first female leader of
Speaker 3: the Liberal Party and straight away Susan started to sit
Speaker 3: down and talk with David Little Proud about the new
Speaker 3: coalition agreement. There was, of course, a big complication, which
Speaker 3: was that Susan Lee's mother was in palliative care. She
Speaker 3: passed away over the weekend. So that was a very
Speaker 3: difficult thing for Susan obviously to navigate. And on Monday morning,
Speaker 3: Susan Lee was ready to start negotiating with David Little
Speaker 3: Proud again and he drove down to her electric from
Speaker 3: Canberra and they had a face to face discussion in Aubrey.
Speaker 3: That was when I think Susan realized that there were
Speaker 3: some pretty big obstacles to making a new coalition agreement,
Speaker 3: and that's how that news filtered back to Canberra that
Speaker 3: the negotiations had pretty much stalled. One thing that really
Speaker 3: surprised me was that David Little Proud gave Susan Lee
Speaker 3: about thirty minutes notice before he walked out and told
Speaker 3: the press gallery that he would be declaring the coalition
Speaker 3: agreement to be dead.
Speaker 1: How much is this a product different interpretations of the
Speaker 1: election result. The perception amongst the National Party room is
Speaker 1: that they had quite a good election. The Liberals went backwards.
Speaker 1: Little Proud and his team clearly felt like they were
Speaker 1: going into the negotiations with a position of power. Do
Speaker 1: you think that Liberals thought they were bluffing, were trying
Speaker 1: to call a bluff.
Speaker 3: I don't think they thought they were bluffing. But I
Speaker 3: do think the Liberals are very annoyed by the Nationals
Speaker 3: thinking that they're in a position to make these kinds
Speaker 3: of demands. Yes, the Nationals held their own fifteen seats
Speaker 3: in the lower House, but they only get about I
Speaker 3: think it's less than four percent of the National primary vote.
Speaker 3: The Nationals have absolutely no hope of governing in their
Speaker 3: own right. They can't be in government without an agreement
Speaker 3: with the Liberal Party to share power. So I think
Speaker 3: it really has annoyed a lot of Liberals who feel
Speaker 3: that not only have the Nationals been a drag on
Speaker 3: their vote in Australia's big cities, they've just been asking
Speaker 3: for too much and they are a small part of
Speaker 3: the coalition. And as one Liberal has said to me
Speaker 3: this morning, the tail has been wagging the dog for
Speaker 3: too long.
Speaker 1: David Little Proud, welcome to seven thirty.
Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks for having me.
Speaker 1: The two party leaders, Susan Lee and David Little Proud
Speaker 1: both went on seven point thirty after the announcement, and
Speaker 1: both of them are asked who blew up the coalition?
Speaker 1: Who blew up the coalition? The National Party or the
Speaker 1: Liberal Party.
Speaker 2: Well, we got to a position in the National Party
Speaker 2: party roarin this morning.
Speaker 1: How did they each frame what had happened.
Speaker 3: Susan Lee is very much pinning the blame on David
Speaker 3: Little Proud. She has said that it was his decision
Speaker 3: to walk away from the coalition.
Speaker 2: I'm very disappointed that the Nationals have chosen to walk
Speaker 2: away from the coalition, but I remain very respectful of
Speaker 2: David Little Proud and his team.
Speaker 3: David Little Proud has confirmed that he's not blaming himself.
Speaker 3: He's saying that it was the Liberals who weren't able
Speaker 3: to come to an agreement.
Speaker 2: Susan wanted to go through an elongated process of policy
Speaker 2: formation that would have to restart effectively what we did
Speaker 2: over the last three years. Let's just go over let's
Speaker 2: just go through them, just to be clear for the viewers.
Speaker 3: But I think most people would be thinking this morning
Speaker 3: that David Little Proud has treated Susan Lee pretty shabbily
Speaker 3: and has acted rashly. I think even some Nationals are
Speaker 3: concerned that this is the beginning of a slow moving
Speaker 3: train wreck for the Nationals.
Speaker 1: Not that slow moving, but definitely a wreck.
Speaker 3: Definitely a wreck, and I think it's going to take
Speaker 3: a bit of time for this to sink in, but
Speaker 3: I wouldn't be surprised if in a year's time the
Speaker 3: Nationals come back with their tails between their legs begging
Speaker 3: for a coalition agreement.
Speaker 1: After the break, What will it take for the Nationals
Speaker 1: to come crawling back, Jason, I want to ask what
Speaker 1: the split means now in practical terms for this next
Speaker 1: parliament and what's coming up. What does it mean for
Speaker 1: how things are going to function in the months ahead.
Speaker 3: Well, the official opposition, which is recognized by the Parliament
Speaker 3: will be the Liberal Party because they have the largest
Speaker 3: grouping on the opposition benches, so they will be the
Speaker 3: official opposition. That means Susan Lee gets to hand out
Speaker 3: all of the shadow Cabinet and the shadow ministry positions.
Speaker 3: Those positions come with extra salary and staff and other resources,
Speaker 3: so it's a big bonus for the fifty three members
Speaker 3: of Parliament who are in the Liberal Party. The Nationals
Speaker 3: miss out on all of those things. It also means
Speaker 3: that the opposition will get more of the questions that
Speaker 3: are asked in question time. So I think in question
Speaker 3: time there's about twenty questions are asked of the executive
Speaker 3: and ten of those go to the government. The other
Speaker 3: ten will be divided between the Liberals, the Nationals and
Speaker 3: the cross Bench, and I think it's clear that the
Speaker 3: Liberals will get the majority of those questions.
Speaker 1: You made it pretty clear, Jason that the coalition can't
Speaker 1: really win an election without each other. What's the logic
Speaker 1: from David Littlebrowd here? What's the end game of a
Speaker 1: move like this?
Speaker 3: Well, I can certainly see the advantages for the Liberal
Speaker 3: Party because the Liberals can really rebrand themselves and make
Speaker 3: a pitch to the big cities that they can be
Speaker 3: a party of the future. Susan Lee has been talking
Speaker 3: about meeting voters where they are, and I think the
Speaker 3: Liberals can do that a lot more easily without the
Speaker 3: Nationals holding them back on key issues like climate change,
Speaker 3: which the Nationals are so reluctant to sign up to
Speaker 3: any policies which would look to reduce Australia's greenhouse gas
Speaker 3: emissions a nuclear power. So I can understand I can
Speaker 3: see advantages in this for the Liberals, but I can't
Speaker 3: see any advantages for the Nationals. They're already a rump party.
Speaker 3: Not only do they miss out on being part of
Speaker 3: the shadow cabinet and the extra resources that come with that.
Speaker 3: They also face the possibility, the strong possibility that the
Speaker 3: Liberals will run candidates against sitting Nationals MPs at the
Speaker 3: next election. So instead of going forwards at the next election,
Speaker 3: the Nationals face the very real prospect of going backwards.
Speaker 3: Susan Lee, we should remember, is a member of Parliament
Speaker 3: who represents the electorate of Parah. This covers a huge
Speaker 3: swathe of rural and regional New South Wales, southern New
Speaker 3: South Wales. When she came into parliament in two thousand
Speaker 3: and one, it was after Tim Fisher, the National's leader,
Speaker 3: had retired from politics. She won that seat against a
Speaker 3: National's candidate. I know how satisfied Susan Lee was with
Speaker 3: that result, and I think one thing that Susan Lee
Speaker 3: has always wanted to do is take more seats off
Speaker 3: the Nationals, and now she's got a huge chance to
Speaker 3: do that. So I think this is a disaster for
Speaker 3: the Nationals. I cannot understand why David Little Proud has
Speaker 3: chosen this path. I think he's been talked into it
Speaker 3: by people like the Victorian National Senator Bridget Mackenzie, who's
Speaker 3: always been very suspicious of the Liberals. But I think
Speaker 3: this is going to bite them on the bum pretty
Speaker 3: hard in the months and possibly years ahead.
Speaker 1: Jason, if you could put on your jaunty couple's counselor
Speaker 1: hat for a moment and offer a little bit of
Speaker 1: sage council here, what do you think the pathway back
Speaker 1: would look like one needs to change for a conscious
Speaker 1: recoupling between the Liberals and the Nationals.
Speaker 3: Well, I think the biggest issue is net zero, and
Speaker 3: I think the Nationals really have to have a long
Speaker 3: think about how they will try to lower greenhouse gas
Speaker 3: emissions as we approach twenty fifty. I think the Liberals
Speaker 3: very much want to stick with net zero and show
Speaker 3: voters in electorates like Wentworth, Couyong and Bradfield that they
Speaker 3: are serious about climate change. These are seats that no
Speaker 3: longer belong to the Liberal Party. They're narrow all held
Speaker 3: by Teals and a key issue for voters in those
Speaker 3: seats has been climate change. So I think the Liberals
Speaker 3: really have to show voters they're serious about it and
Speaker 3: they just cannot have the Nationals holding them back any longer.
Speaker 3: And I think the other thing that the Nationals should
Speaker 3: consider is the advice that the former Prime Minister John
Speaker 3: Howard has been handing out, which is to start talking
Speaker 3: as soon as possible about getting this coalition agreement back together,
Speaker 3: because the sooner they get talking and get this coalition
Speaker 3: agree but back on track now, the sooner they can
Speaker 3: realistically start planning to form government again.
Speaker 1: Jason, thanks for joining.
Speaker 3: Me, Michael, absolute pleasure, great to chat with you.
Speaker 1: Also in the news today, the British government has suspended
Speaker 1: free trade talks with Israel and impose new sanctions on
Speaker 1: West Bank settlers in response to Israel's latest military offensive
Speaker 1: in Gaza. The move follows mounting international pressure over a
Speaker 1: blockade that has pushed Gaza to the brink of famine,
Speaker 1: with Australia joining twenty two other nations in condemning Israel
Speaker 1: over the decision to allow limited aid into the Strip,
Speaker 1: and the Reserve Bank has modeled the impact of a
Speaker 1: trade war on Australia, saying unemployment could reach six percent
Speaker 1: should the Union United States is so called Liberation Day
Speaker 1: tariffs be reintroduced and countries retaliate. In a statement following
Speaker 1: Tuesday's decision to cut the official cash rate by a
Speaker 1: quarter of a percent, the RBA said there is still
Speaker 1: considerable uncertainty about the final scope of the tariffs. A
Speaker 1: Michael Williams seven AM will be back tomorrow