1 00:00:01,360 --> 00:00:09,860 Speaker 1: I'm Ruby Jones and you're listening to 7am. It's an 2 00:00:09,920 --> 00:00:14,380 Speaker 1: uncomfortable fact our government doesn't like to face. 25 years 3 00:00:14,520 --> 00:00:17,770 Speaker 1: on from the Tampa affair, we're still paying a tiny 4 00:00:17,910 --> 00:00:22,390 Speaker 1: island micronation hundreds of millions of dollars to keep immigration 5 00:00:22,410 --> 00:00:25,770 Speaker 1: detention alive. One of the ways we're doing that is 6 00:00:25,890 --> 00:00:29,460 Speaker 1: by helping to prop up Nauru Airlines. a company riven 7 00:00:29,500 --> 00:00:35,380 Speaker 1: with financial, governance and safety issues. Today, independent journalist Nick 8 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:39,159 Speaker 1: Fyke on how our relationship with a foreign commercial airline 9 00:00:39,600 --> 00:00:44,449 Speaker 1: is compromising the Australian government's own regulators, departments and procurement 10 00:00:44,490 --> 00:00:47,690 Speaker 1: processes in the name of immigration detention. 11 00:00:53,550 --> 00:01:02,530 Speaker 2: It's Thursday, September 24th. Nick, you started your reporting on 12 00:01:02,620 --> 00:01:05,660 Speaker 2: this with a question, and that was, why is it 13 00:01:05,760 --> 00:01:10,180 Speaker 2: that Nauru, which is this tiny micronation with no real 14 00:01:10,340 --> 00:01:13,520 Speaker 2: tourism trade to speak of, maybe a few thousand residents, 15 00:01:13,640 --> 00:01:18,490 Speaker 2: why does it have an international commercial airline? Tell me 16 00:01:18,510 --> 00:01:21,770 Speaker 2: what first intrigued you about Nauru Airlines. 17 00:01:22,370 --> 00:01:25,970 Speaker 3: So Nauru, the island formerly known as Nauru, has a 18 00:01:26,010 --> 00:01:29,440 Speaker 3: population of 12,000 people. It's the least visited country in 19 00:01:29,480 --> 00:01:33,620 Speaker 3: the world. It's got about 200 tourists per year. It 20 00:01:33,660 --> 00:01:37,750 Speaker 3: has no fresh water, no crops, no distinguishing features at all. 21 00:01:37,790 --> 00:01:42,230 Speaker 3: It's not a pretty place. It's 21 square kilometres, no 22 00:01:42,290 --> 00:01:45,150 Speaker 3: tourist infrastructure. So I wondered, why does this have an 23 00:01:45,290 --> 00:01:50,150 Speaker 3: airline with seven Boeing 737s? And the answer comes back 24 00:01:50,190 --> 00:01:55,410 Speaker 3: to Australia and our longstanding immigration detention policies. I've reported 25 00:01:55,530 --> 00:01:59,210 Speaker 3: on Nauru before, but it's notoriously hard to cover offshore 26 00:01:59,250 --> 00:02:02,890 Speaker 3: immigration issues. And the airlines are really interesting and illuminating 27 00:02:02,970 --> 00:02:06,010 Speaker 3: way into this story, I think. So just for context, 28 00:02:06,550 --> 00:02:11,149 Speaker 3: Nauru Airlines did originally exist as a tiny national flag carrier. 29 00:02:11,870 --> 00:02:16,110 Speaker 3: But before Australia's Pacific Solution dollars started pouring in, Nauru 30 00:02:16,169 --> 00:02:19,410 Speaker 3: Airlines had a single aircraft and it couldn't even afford that. 31 00:02:20,160 --> 00:02:22,680 Speaker 3: So it exists today in the shape that it does 32 00:02:22,940 --> 00:02:27,520 Speaker 3: only because our offshore immigration system demands it because multiple 33 00:02:27,560 --> 00:02:32,340 Speaker 3: departments and regulators across successive governments have gone to absolutely 34 00:02:32,400 --> 00:02:34,530 Speaker 3: absurd lengths to protect and support it. 35 00:02:34,540 --> 00:02:38,139 Speaker 2: Okay, so before we go on, tell me a bit 36 00:02:38,180 --> 00:02:42,260 Speaker 2: more about where Australia's relationship with Nauru is at now 37 00:02:42,540 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 2: in 2026 and how many asylum seekers are currently there. 38 00:02:47,030 --> 00:02:50,270 Speaker 3: Well, Australia regularly spends around a billion dollars a year 39 00:02:50,389 --> 00:02:55,690 Speaker 3: on the offshore management of what we call unauthorised maritime arrivals. 40 00:02:56,250 --> 00:02:59,130 Speaker 3: So this is according to Australia's own budget figures. In 41 00:02:59,150 --> 00:03:02,070 Speaker 3: the past year, there were around 100 asylum seekers held 42 00:03:02,130 --> 00:03:06,100 Speaker 3: in Nauru, Nauru. And this equated to us spending around 43 00:03:06,100 --> 00:03:10,700 Speaker 3: $ 9 million per person. We paid an initial $ 400 million 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 3: last year when it signed a new deal to take 45 00:03:13,600 --> 00:03:18,070 Speaker 3: on the NZYQ cohort of asylum seekers. And we'll give 46 00:03:18,110 --> 00:03:22,030 Speaker 3: it a further $ 70 million annually for the next three decades. 47 00:03:22,070 --> 00:03:27,030 Speaker 3: That's a total of $ 2. 5 billion in that deal. But meanwhile, 48 00:03:27,450 --> 00:03:31,220 Speaker 3: detainees in Nowidaw report that they can't afford to buy 49 00:03:31,260 --> 00:03:35,140 Speaker 3: enough food or access clean drinking water. You know, while 50 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:38,180 Speaker 3: they're waiting for their asylum claims to be processed, which 51 00:03:38,220 --> 00:03:41,780 Speaker 3: they may never be processed. So many are skipping meals 52 00:03:41,820 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 3: to make ends meet. And Nauru's also been experiencing frequent 53 00:03:45,820 --> 00:03:49,380 Speaker 3: power outages. So with all this money going around, where 54 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,190 Speaker 3: is it all going? And I discovered that some of 55 00:03:52,270 --> 00:03:53,770 Speaker 3: it's going to Nauru Airlines. 56 00:03:54,930 --> 00:03:55,130 Speaker 1: Right. 57 00:03:55,170 --> 00:03:57,170 Speaker 2: And so tell me more about what you uncovered. 58 00:03:57,890 --> 00:04:01,670 Speaker 3: So Nauru Air Corporation, which runs Nauru Airlines, is incorporated 59 00:04:01,730 --> 00:04:04,790 Speaker 3: in Nauru and owned by the state of Nauru. but 60 00:04:04,830 --> 00:04:08,430 Speaker 3: it's registered in Australia as an overseas company. So it's 61 00:04:08,730 --> 00:04:13,010 Speaker 3: operational and corporate offices are based in Brisbane. And look, 62 00:04:13,030 --> 00:04:17,279 Speaker 3: it wouldn't be remotely viable without Australian contracts and subsidies, 63 00:04:17,860 --> 00:04:20,380 Speaker 3: which are worth tens of millions of dollars a year. 64 00:04:20,460 --> 00:04:25,540 Speaker 3: So since the start of 2023, DFAT has contracts with 65 00:04:25,620 --> 00:04:29,510 Speaker 3: over $ 50 million with Nauru Airlines for flights to Nauru 66 00:04:29,610 --> 00:04:33,429 Speaker 3: and to other Pacific destinations. But the other key source 67 00:04:33,490 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 3: of their revenue is our Department of Home Affairs. So 68 00:04:36,980 --> 00:04:42,020 Speaker 3: they have a contract that's worth $ 104 million over three years. 69 00:04:42,820 --> 00:04:46,500 Speaker 3: But here it gets quite interesting because Home Affairs is 70 00:04:46,580 --> 00:04:49,410 Speaker 3: clearly trying to conceal its dealings with the airline. 71 00:04:49,630 --> 00:04:55,450 Speaker 2: Okay, so this $ 104 million contract that Home Affairs has 72 00:04:55,510 --> 00:04:57,390 Speaker 2: in place, who. 73 00:04:57,330 --> 00:05:00,150 Speaker 3: Is it with? Well, it's a contract that's in two parts, 74 00:05:00,510 --> 00:05:03,710 Speaker 3: and both of them went to a company called Adegold Aviation. 75 00:05:04,170 --> 00:05:06,589 Speaker 3: But the links to Nauru Airlines aren't listed in the 76 00:05:06,670 --> 00:05:10,190 Speaker 3: public notice of the contract. They only emerged under questioning 77 00:05:10,250 --> 00:05:14,029 Speaker 3: by Green Senator David Shoebridge in a recent estimates hearing. 78 00:05:14,810 --> 00:05:17,230 Speaker 4: Well, you know the 737. It's got a big Nauru 79 00:05:17,310 --> 00:05:19,890 Speaker 4: Airlines thing painted on it. It's a Nauru Airlines aircraft, right? 80 00:05:20,070 --> 00:05:20,390 Speaker 3: Correct. 81 00:05:21,790 --> 00:05:25,650 Speaker 4: And does Adegold contract directly with Nauru Airlines, or does 82 00:05:25,670 --> 00:05:28,660 Speaker 4: it go through some kind of corporate... feeding chain to 83 00:05:28,680 --> 00:05:30,479 Speaker 4: get to Nauru Air Corporation. 84 00:05:30,980 --> 00:05:32,919 Speaker 3: I don't have those details with me, Senator. I'll need 85 00:05:32,960 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 3: to take that on notice. Adergold doesn't have its own aircraft. 86 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:40,240 Speaker 3: It's a broker. So for this job, Adergold subcontracts to 87 00:05:40,500 --> 00:05:44,560 Speaker 3: Airgo International, another company. But Airgo International also doesn't have 88 00:05:44,620 --> 00:05:46,710 Speaker 3: any suitable aircraft. It's also a broker. 89 00:05:47,050 --> 00:05:49,990 Speaker 4: First of all, I asked you whether or not Nauru 90 00:05:50,029 --> 00:05:53,070 Speaker 4: Air Corporation ran the plane, and we eventually found out 91 00:05:53,110 --> 00:05:57,850 Speaker 4: it did. Now I'm asking you about that same $ 104 92 00:05:56,850 --> 00:05:59,630 Speaker 4: million contract that you were the delegate on that was 93 00:05:59,730 --> 00:06:06,750 Speaker 4: signed less than 12 months ago. Was there a subcontract 94 00:06:06,790 --> 00:06:08,409 Speaker 4: through a corporation called Airgo? 95 00:06:09,210 --> 00:06:11,090 Speaker 2: I've just been advised, yes, Senator, there was. 96 00:06:11,810 --> 00:06:15,190 Speaker 3: So Airgo International is the local agent for Nauru Airlines, 97 00:06:15,250 --> 00:06:18,529 Speaker 3: which owns and operates the actual aircraft that deliver the 98 00:06:18,570 --> 00:06:21,010 Speaker 3: vast bulk of flight services under this contract. 99 00:06:21,410 --> 00:06:25,360 Speaker 4: Surely if you've got subcontractors... who are each taking a 100 00:06:25,420 --> 00:06:30,620 Speaker 4: cut along the way, one of the critical things you 101 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 4: want to look at is that they were independent and 102 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 4: that they weren't related party entities. Surely that's part of 103 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,790 Speaker 4: looking at a subcontracting chain, isn't it? So the Commonwealth 104 00:06:40,830 --> 00:06:44,310 Speaker 4: isn't getting doubly grifted on the way for a contract. 105 00:06:45,210 --> 00:06:45,830 Speaker 4: Did you look at that? 106 00:06:46,470 --> 00:06:49,710 Speaker 2: So, Senator, Ms Nicholson would have had advice from experts. 107 00:06:50,250 --> 00:06:52,950 Speaker 4: Let us take that on notice and we'll go back 108 00:06:53,050 --> 00:06:55,890 Speaker 4: and see... if we can get you the answers to 109 00:06:55,930 --> 00:06:56,589 Speaker 4: those questions. 110 00:06:58,010 --> 00:07:01,300 Speaker 3: But here's the strangest thing. According to leaked tender documents 111 00:07:01,339 --> 00:07:05,659 Speaker 3: that I found, Nauru's government has advised our government that 112 00:07:05,700 --> 00:07:08,700 Speaker 3: the only aircraft it will permit to land in Nauru 113 00:07:08,720 --> 00:07:11,050 Speaker 3: are Nauru Airlines aircraft. 114 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:15,190 Speaker 2: Okay, so the Department of Home Affairs, it needs the 115 00:07:15,230 --> 00:07:19,040 Speaker 2: ability to fly to and from Nauru. The Nauruan government 116 00:07:19,180 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: says that it's only going to allow its airline, Nauru Airline, 117 00:07:23,200 --> 00:07:27,760 Speaker 2: planes to land there. So why does this contract exist 118 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,300 Speaker 2: through two different companies? What is the point of all 119 00:07:30,340 --> 00:07:30,620 Speaker 2: of this? 120 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:33,520 Speaker 3: Well, Home Affairs hasn't really given a good answer to 121 00:07:33,560 --> 00:07:37,730 Speaker 3: that question. If Home Affairs knew that the work would 122 00:07:37,790 --> 00:07:43,750 Speaker 3: be subcontracted by Adergold to Airgo onto Nauru Airlines, how 123 00:07:43,790 --> 00:07:47,990 Speaker 3: could it possibly conclude that this would deliver the most accountability? 124 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:51,350 Speaker 3: and the best value for money, it appears that it's 125 00:07:51,390 --> 00:07:57,610 Speaker 3: actually designed to avoid accountability or scrutiny. So while the 126 00:07:57,670 --> 00:08:01,050 Speaker 3: tender was formally open to other competitors, it needed to 127 00:08:01,150 --> 00:08:04,670 Speaker 3: end up with Nauru Airlines. So it's a de facto monopoly, right? 128 00:08:05,120 --> 00:08:09,540 Speaker 3: If only Nauru Airlines can land in Nauru, the Australian 129 00:08:09,560 --> 00:08:13,380 Speaker 3: government can only contract or subcontract this work, in effect, 130 00:08:13,640 --> 00:08:17,220 Speaker 3: to a single company. So you can understand why An 131 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:19,670 Speaker 3: arrangement like this is open to abuse. I mean, it's 132 00:08:19,710 --> 00:08:24,310 Speaker 3: why you have procurement rules. But Nauru Airlines has everyone 133 00:08:24,410 --> 00:08:26,610 Speaker 3: over a barrel, and this is what our government has 134 00:08:26,650 --> 00:08:32,160 Speaker 3: agreed to. We need to keep Nauru Airlines afloat, no 135 00:08:32,200 --> 00:08:33,120 Speaker 3: matter what the cost. 136 00:08:35,559 --> 00:08:38,510 Speaker 2: Coming up, the long list of safety incidents connected to 137 00:08:38,550 --> 00:08:51,829 Speaker 2: Nauru Airlines. Nick, you've uncovered issues with Nauru Airlines and 138 00:08:51,870 --> 00:08:55,270 Speaker 2: this contract with the Department of Home Affairs, but you've 139 00:08:55,330 --> 00:08:58,650 Speaker 2: also dug into the airline's finances as well as the 140 00:08:58,700 --> 00:09:02,180 Speaker 2: way that it's being run, its governance. Tell me what 141 00:09:02,200 --> 00:09:02,979 Speaker 2: you've uncovered there. 142 00:09:03,300 --> 00:09:05,800 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, it gets really interesting. I mean, if Home 143 00:09:05,860 --> 00:09:09,600 Speaker 3: Affairs and DFAT had applied the usual due diligence to 144 00:09:09,660 --> 00:09:13,860 Speaker 3: Nauru Airlines, they wouldn't award it any contracts. And look, 145 00:09:13,880 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: before we even look at the reliability of its aircraft 146 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:20,130 Speaker 3: or its safety records, Nuru Air Corporation's finances are a 147 00:09:20,170 --> 00:09:23,939 Speaker 3: complete mess. I mean, on the financials it provided in 148 00:09:23,980 --> 00:09:29,020 Speaker 3: its 2025 annual report, it potentially would fail normal Australian 149 00:09:29,080 --> 00:09:32,620 Speaker 3: solvency tests. So this is despite the Australian government propping 150 00:09:32,660 --> 00:09:34,800 Speaker 3: it up to the value of $ 40 million to $ 50 151 00:09:34,740 --> 00:09:38,599 Speaker 3: million a year. In February, the company even sold the 152 00:09:38,760 --> 00:09:42,850 Speaker 3: engines of its planes and now it leases them back. 153 00:09:43,330 --> 00:09:45,810 Speaker 3: And it's not like the government is unaware of these 154 00:09:45,890 --> 00:09:47,030 Speaker 3: financial problems. 155 00:09:47,350 --> 00:09:51,210 Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. Okay, and you mentioned some safety issues as well. 156 00:09:51,330 --> 00:09:54,610 Speaker 2: Tell me a bit more about what the concerns are 157 00:09:54,910 --> 00:09:56,790 Speaker 2: around some incidents that the airlines had. 158 00:09:57,210 --> 00:09:59,530 Speaker 3: Well, since the start of this year, it appears there's 159 00:09:59,570 --> 00:10:03,240 Speaker 3: been several... turnbacks which are when a plane takes off 160 00:10:03,679 --> 00:10:05,900 Speaker 3: it flies for a while and then due to a 161 00:10:05,960 --> 00:10:08,520 Speaker 3: technical issue it has to return to where it came 162 00:10:08,600 --> 00:10:12,080 Speaker 3: from that's so disproportionate for an airline of this size 163 00:10:12,500 --> 00:10:16,270 Speaker 3: by comparison to something like Malaysian Airlines who had an 164 00:10:16,309 --> 00:10:19,690 Speaker 3: issue with turnbacks. It's like 40 times higher than their 165 00:10:19,750 --> 00:10:22,250 Speaker 3: rate of turnbacks, which was in Malaysia. It was enough 166 00:10:22,270 --> 00:10:25,589 Speaker 3: to have a parliamentary inquiry. We hadn't even talked about it. 167 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:30,080 Speaker 3: In 2021, there was an incident over Brisbane where there 168 00:10:30,100 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: were flames flying out the back of the engine, right? 169 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:35,119 Speaker 3: There were people on the ground looking up at it. 170 00:10:35,140 --> 00:10:37,380 Speaker 3: You can see the footage on Facebook still. 171 00:10:37,770 --> 00:10:39,150 Speaker 4: Look at the flames coming out of it. 172 00:10:39,450 --> 00:10:41,670 Speaker 3: When I was looking at that plane, my first instinct was, 173 00:10:41,730 --> 00:10:43,790 Speaker 3: I hope to God they make it to Brisbane Airport. 174 00:10:43,950 --> 00:10:46,630 Speaker 2: Many witnesses said it was so loud they thought it 175 00:10:46,670 --> 00:10:49,840 Speaker 2: was fireworks. One even guessed it was a meteor. 176 00:10:50,140 --> 00:10:52,840 Speaker 3: I could see, like, a lot of red lights around 177 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:57,580 Speaker 3: the plane flashing. It hasn't been investigated by the ATSB. Similarly, 178 00:10:57,740 --> 00:11:03,100 Speaker 3: in 2023, a pilot momentarily lost control of the horizontal 179 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:06,490 Speaker 3: stabilisers of the plane. There's a rust issue. So the 180 00:11:06,550 --> 00:11:10,030 Speaker 3: flaps in the tail ceased to work for a bit. 181 00:11:10,770 --> 00:11:15,949 Speaker 3: The pilot was panicking. He eventually got the plane down, 182 00:11:16,370 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 3: and I know this through internal records. That was never reported, 183 00:11:20,620 --> 00:11:25,079 Speaker 3: never investigated. This is not safe. It's not safe for 184 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,579 Speaker 3: Boeing 737s. to be flying above Brisbane like that. 185 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:32,500 Speaker 2: Yeah, it sounds like there's a serious risk here of 186 00:11:32,540 --> 00:11:37,300 Speaker 2: a serious safety incident involving an airline that the Australian 187 00:11:37,340 --> 00:11:40,199 Speaker 2: government has been propping up, a foreign airline that it 188 00:11:40,380 --> 00:11:42,420 Speaker 2: knows isn't really up to scratch. 189 00:11:42,890 --> 00:11:45,470 Speaker 3: Well, I mean, it would be absolutely disastrous if this 190 00:11:45,490 --> 00:11:47,930 Speaker 3: stuff came out. If there was an incident, you know, 191 00:11:47,950 --> 00:11:50,030 Speaker 3: no one could say that they couldn't know, as one 192 00:11:50,330 --> 00:11:52,990 Speaker 3: source put it to me, because our authorities know the 193 00:11:53,030 --> 00:11:56,780 Speaker 3: risks entailed in keeping an airline like this afloat. Now, 194 00:11:56,860 --> 00:12:00,480 Speaker 3: I recently discovered that the airline in recent years has 195 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,950 Speaker 3: been drawing on its own maintenance reserve funds just to 196 00:12:04,010 --> 00:12:07,650 Speaker 3: pay for its daily operating expenses. And I believe our 197 00:12:07,690 --> 00:12:10,630 Speaker 3: government and regulators are entirely aware of the problems with 198 00:12:10,670 --> 00:12:14,010 Speaker 3: this airline and that they're turning a blind eye. Okay. 199 00:12:14,030 --> 00:12:16,530 Speaker 2: So as it stands, Nick, the Australian government is propping 200 00:12:16,580 --> 00:12:20,440 Speaker 2: up an international airline through some pretty strange contracts. The 201 00:12:20,540 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: airline itself seems to be on the verge of insolvency. 202 00:12:24,160 --> 00:12:27,920 Speaker 2: They're questions around its governance and also around just the 203 00:12:27,960 --> 00:12:33,080 Speaker 2: safety of its aircraft. Regardless, though, the contracts are continuing 204 00:12:33,100 --> 00:12:36,410 Speaker 2: to be signed, the money granted. So where did you 205 00:12:36,490 --> 00:12:40,150 Speaker 2: ultimately land on this question of why Nauru Airlines and 206 00:12:40,170 --> 00:12:42,670 Speaker 2: this state of affairs is allowed to exist? 207 00:12:43,150 --> 00:12:45,730 Speaker 3: I think fundamentally, this is the price that we pay 208 00:12:45,950 --> 00:12:50,260 Speaker 3: for insisting that some asylum seekers don't have basic rights 209 00:12:50,400 --> 00:12:53,870 Speaker 3: under our law. and for treating Nauru like a human 210 00:12:53,950 --> 00:13:00,750 Speaker 3: dumping ground. Australia entered into a $ 2. 5 billion 30-year agreement 211 00:13:00,870 --> 00:13:05,230 Speaker 3: that depends entirely on Nauru Airlines, regardless of the cost 212 00:13:05,309 --> 00:13:08,429 Speaker 3: or the consequences. We can only speculate as to how 213 00:13:08,510 --> 00:13:14,460 Speaker 3: Australian ministers and departments justify this position, in which, frankly, 214 00:13:14,500 --> 00:13:17,300 Speaker 3: they've put themselves, but we can assume that it runs 215 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:19,939 Speaker 3: along the lines of the ends justify the means. So, 216 00:13:20,890 --> 00:13:25,050 Speaker 3: The offshore immigration system is fundamental to border security. Nauru 217 00:13:25,130 --> 00:13:30,030 Speaker 3: is critical to this system. National security overrides any other concerns. 218 00:13:31,070 --> 00:13:34,500 Speaker 3: And so, therefore, you know, the Nauru Airlines monopoly, which 219 00:13:34,720 --> 00:13:41,280 Speaker 3: breaches regulatory standards, compromises procurement processes, it enables market manipulation, 220 00:13:41,640 --> 00:13:44,600 Speaker 3: it's just the price we pay. So, you know, we're 221 00:13:44,640 --> 00:13:50,050 Speaker 3: doing business with imperfect Pacific administrations and airlines and that's just... 222 00:13:50,330 --> 00:13:54,849 Speaker 3: what it costs for our security, so-called. I have a 223 00:13:54,929 --> 00:13:58,709 Speaker 3: fundamental problem with this sort of approach by the government 224 00:13:59,110 --> 00:14:03,110 Speaker 3: because this has a safety aspect too. It's compromising our 225 00:14:03,230 --> 00:14:07,780 Speaker 3: own regulators, our own government departments. They're making decisions that 226 00:14:07,820 --> 00:14:12,140 Speaker 3: are completely out of the ordinary and it's all to 227 00:14:12,200 --> 00:14:18,430 Speaker 3: justify a system in which We are punishing asylum seekers 228 00:14:18,450 --> 00:14:20,670 Speaker 3: for trying to come here. Like, we're ruining our own 229 00:14:20,710 --> 00:14:24,110 Speaker 3: government standards to do this. It's hard for me to 230 00:14:24,150 --> 00:14:25,140 Speaker 3: sort of justify it. 231 00:14:27,050 --> 00:14:29,030 Speaker 2: Well, Nick, thank you so much for speaking with me. 232 00:14:29,530 --> 00:14:30,310 Speaker 3: Thanks a lot, Ruby. 233 00:14:39,810 --> 00:14:43,210 Speaker 2: Also in the news... The Trump administration has attacked Australia's 234 00:14:43,250 --> 00:14:46,910 Speaker 2: proposed social media reforms, which would allow users to switch 235 00:14:46,980 --> 00:14:51,180 Speaker 2: off algorithm-driven feeds and require platforms to address harmful content. 236 00:14:51,940 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 2: The US says the laws could amount to censorship, wants 237 00:14:54,820 --> 00:14:58,770 Speaker 2: American tech companies exempt, and has warned trading partners against 238 00:14:58,830 --> 00:15:02,630 Speaker 2: imposing fines and other measures on US tech firms. Prime 239 00:15:02,650 --> 00:15:06,110 Speaker 2: Minister Anthony Albanese says the reforms are about giving Australians 240 00:15:06,170 --> 00:15:08,950 Speaker 2: control over what they see online and and that he'll 241 00:15:08,990 --> 00:15:13,850 Speaker 2: always stand up for Australia's national interests. And Donald Trump 242 00:15:13,890 --> 00:15:16,350 Speaker 2: has used an address in the United Nations to defend 243 00:15:16,410 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 2: the US war with Iran and reject international efforts to 244 00:15:19,940 --> 00:15:24,280 Speaker 2: regulate artificial intelligence. The US president threatened to annihilate the 245 00:15:24,340 --> 00:15:26,900 Speaker 2: Islamic Republic if a peace deal could not be reached, 246 00:15:27,320 --> 00:15:31,120 Speaker 2: while predicting an agreement could come after November's midterm elections. 247 00:15:31,930 --> 00:15:34,530 Speaker 2: I'm Ruby Jones. This is 7am. Thanks for listening. 248 00:15:37,730 --> 00:15:40,210 Speaker 3: Thank you.