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Speaker 1: Listeners are advised that this podcast series Bromman contains coarse

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Speaker 1: language and adult themes. This podcast series is brought to

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Speaker 1: you by me Hedley Thomas and The Australian Listen Photos.

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Speaker 2: Oh here we go. This is why I kept this.

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Speaker 2: What you can see there? That car, I think and

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Speaker 2: Murray'll be able to tell you for sure was the

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Speaker 2: car that he used to go to Sydney the night

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Speaker 2: she disappeared.

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Speaker 1: I see on the evening of May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three,

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Speaker 1: Bromwin was at home with her two daughters, next door

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Speaker 1: to Murray and Devin Sandstone Crescent. John has been away

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Speaker 1: in Sydney for work. He and Bromwin had formerly separated

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Speaker 1: seven weeks earlier. The Winfield family car, a white Ford

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Speaker 1: Falcon Sedan, was in the driveway. Murray always knew when

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Speaker 1: John or Broman left the house in that car because

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Speaker 1: of a distinctive noise.

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Speaker 3: It made it ad litally squeaking brakes. And so that's

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Speaker 3: why I was sitting here. I thought, I'll get to

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Speaker 3: your Bromin's car. It's like I heard it before I

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Speaker 3: saw it. So I'm sitting on the unge here two

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Speaker 3: Viel's there I'm actually watching Wore the Roses.

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Speaker 1: The black satirical comedy from the late eighties stars Michael

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Speaker 1: Douglas and Kathleen Turner. A married couple heading towards a

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Speaker 1: bitter divorce, The Roses fight to the death for the

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Speaker 1: family home and its contents. I want a divorce.

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Speaker 4: No, you don't.

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Speaker 5: You can't have one.

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Speaker 6: I've thought about this a lot. I really don't want

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Speaker 6: to be married to you anymore. I may have let

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Speaker 6: you have the house, but now you'll never get it.

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Speaker 1: You will never get that house.

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Speaker 7: Do you understand?

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Speaker 8: You will never get that house.

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Speaker 1: The movement and noise of the white Ford Falcon owned

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Speaker 1: by his neighbors grabbed Murray's attention, and he stopped watching

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Speaker 1: War of the Roses.

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Speaker 7: When I heard the squeaky brakes, someone's stealing Broblem's car.

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Speaker 1: Can you show me what you saw? Yes?

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Speaker 9: What?

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Speaker 7: The lounges used to be there, and the two v

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Speaker 7: used to be there. So I've got up off that

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Speaker 7: lounge when I heard the car break squeak, and I

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Speaker 7: come up here and stood here. Yeah, and it was

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Speaker 7: all open. I'll see the cargo out there.

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Speaker 1: Let's walk outside onto the front.

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Speaker 10: Law.

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Speaker 1: So Jodn Broman's house.

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Speaker 7: That's it there.

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Speaker 1: Has the house changed much?

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Speaker 7: Hasn't changed at all? Not one thing that exactly.

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Speaker 1: Did you ever hear them arguing? No, so if they

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Speaker 1: squabbled or fought, they were fairly quiet. Yeah, yeah, but

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Speaker 1: you shouldna live far apart.

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Speaker 7: Yeah, but I never heard it.

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Speaker 1: Why did you think that it was a car theft

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Speaker 1: rather than Bromin or John Travil car?

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Speaker 7: Well, because it's no John was back.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 7: Yeah. The car backed out with no lights.

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Speaker 3: On, bottomed down on the road, does a big groove

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Speaker 3: in the road and rolled down the hill down the

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Speaker 3: bottom of he down here with no lights on.

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Speaker 7: It's on, the lights on, start the engine and ran

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Speaker 7: out of the way.

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Speaker 1: When Murray describes the car bottoming out and leaving a

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Speaker 1: groove in the road, he's describing what he believes must

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Speaker 1: have happened. He distinctly heard the noise of what he

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Speaker 1: says must have been the chassis or underside of the

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Speaker 1: back of the car beneath the boot or trunk scraping

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Speaker 1: on Bitchamen. As the car reversed from the sloping driveway

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Speaker 1: and onto the road of Sandstone Crescent.

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Speaker 7: The car bottomed out and strap from the road out

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Speaker 7: the front. But it dug a pretty deep hole in

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Speaker 7: the road. Have it occasionally spraped before?

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Speaker 1: Yes?

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Speaker 3: Yes, At this time when it scraped, it actually dug

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Speaker 3: it with probably twenty five milad.

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Speaker 1: And did you infer anything at the time that was

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Speaker 1: suspicious from that scrape and that noise?

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Speaker 7: And yeah? Oh for see the boots fitevy.

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Speaker 1: You remember seeing the car rolling down hill headlights off

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Speaker 1: and jed off. Had you seen John or Bromin driving

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Speaker 1: the car down the hill like that?

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Speaker 7: Pool? Nah?

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Speaker 1: No, Have you ever driven down this hill without your

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Speaker 1: engine and lights hill?

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Speaker 7: No?

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Speaker 1: No, it's pretty unusual.

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Speaker 7: It's very unusual. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And normally they would always come out of.

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Speaker 7: The driveway and go up the hill. Yeah, it was

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Speaker 7: an odd thing to do.

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Speaker 1: Is that what made you suspicious?

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Speaker 10: Oh?

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Speaker 7: Definitely.

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Speaker 3: At the time, I was concerned about someone steel in

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Speaker 3: my car and it was Brom's car, so I got

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Speaker 3: up in this twenty to eleven.

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Speaker 7: That's strange for a car leaving a strong night.

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Speaker 1: Murray's account of seeing and hearing the Winfield vehicle leaving

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Speaker 1: the house in Sandstone Crescent on the night of Sunday,

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Speaker 1: May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three, must be solid. But Bronwan

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Speaker 1: wasn't driving that car. Her husband John was behind the wheel,

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Speaker 1: and the reason for the car bottoming out scraping on

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Speaker 1: the bitchmen. Five years after Bromwin disappeared, the detective sergeant

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Speaker 1: from Ballina Police, Glenn Taylor, who led a comprehensive investigation

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Speaker 1: and prepared a significant brief of evidence for an inquest,

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Speaker 1: was of the view that the car bottomed out because

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Speaker 1: Broman's body was in the boot or the back seat.

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Speaker 1: It's a very serious allegation and John Winfield emphatically denies this.

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Speaker 1: But John certainly does not deny that he was driving

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Speaker 1: the car about that time. In fact, he says it

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Speaker 1: was him, and we're going to deal with this in

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Speaker 1: detail in this episode and in the next one. First,

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Speaker 1: it's important to establish the chronology of events over the

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Speaker 1: Saturday and Sunday leading up to the time of about

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Speaker 1: ten forty pm on Sunday when the family car left

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Speaker 1: and Bromwin was never again. Will go first to the

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Speaker 1: evidence of Jody, John's daughter from his first marriage. In

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Speaker 1: a previous episode, you heard how Bromman had written a

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Speaker 1: heartfelt letter to Jody pledging love and support for her stepdaughter,

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Speaker 1: notwithstanding the breakdown of the marriage. In Jody's statement to

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Speaker 1: police five years later in September nineteen ninety eight, she

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Speaker 1: discloses a telephone conversation with broman on the Friday, two

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Speaker 1: days before her stepmother's disappearance.

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Speaker 11: I can't recall how it happened, but I rang the

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Speaker 11: house at Sandstone Crescent and Bronwin answered the telephone. She

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Speaker 11: told me that she'd moved back into the house with

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Speaker 11: the kids and that she was staying there. She also

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Speaker 11: told me that Dad was not welcome there and that

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Speaker 11: he can stay in Sydney with me. She told me

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Speaker 11: that she was going to get a restraining order so

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Speaker 11: that he couldn't come near the house. She also told

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Speaker 11: me that the house belonged to her, and I really

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Speaker 11: noticed that she changed from the person who wanted us

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Speaker 11: all to say close. We both started to argue because

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Speaker 11: I told her that it was not her house and

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Speaker 11: that it belonged to Dad, Crystal, Lauren and me as well.

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Speaker 11: I also told her that it belonged to us, more

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Speaker 11: so because she was the one that chose to leave.

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Speaker 1: It is an interesting point. Jody is suggesting that because

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Speaker 1: Bromin had decided to leave John and had moved out

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Speaker 1: of the house for about seven weeks. Her entitlement to

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Speaker 1: the property was diminished. John's daughter, Jody, was living in

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Speaker 1: Sydney at the time of these conversations with Bromwin. She

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Speaker 1: was eighteen years old and close to her dad. Jody

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Speaker 1: was twenty three when she gave her statement to police

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Speaker 1: in nineteen ninety eight. These are her words, it's not

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Speaker 1: her voice.

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Speaker 11: I asked her what had made her change her attitude

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Speaker 11: so much, and she told me that the clairvoyant had

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Speaker 11: told her to move back in and do all this.

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Speaker 11: It developed into a very heated argument and we were

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Speaker 11: yelling at each other, and she hung up on me.

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Speaker 11: I immediately rang her back and the phone was engaged.

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Speaker 11: I kept trying, but she must have left the phone

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Speaker 11: off the hook. The following day, which would have been Saturday,

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Speaker 11: fifteenth of May nineteen ninety three, I rang the Lennox

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Speaker 11: head house before I went to work. It would have

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Speaker 11: been before nine am when I spoke to Cristel and

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Speaker 11: she told me that Bronwin had gone out for the

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Speaker 11: day and would not be returning until four o'clock that afternoon.

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Speaker 11: At that stage, Cristel was about ten years of age

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Speaker 11: and Lauren was five. I asked Cristel who was minding them,

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Speaker 11: and she told me that she was minding Lauren and

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Speaker 11: that it was great because she had never been left

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Speaker 11: alone before. I told Christel that I wanted to talk

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Speaker 11: to her mother when she got home. When I terminated

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Speaker 11: the phone call and told Dad, he appeared to be

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Speaker 11: very stressed out about it because they had never been

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Speaker 11: left alone before and he was so far away.

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Speaker 1: It's hard to know what to make of this claim

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Speaker 1: by Jody that Bronwin was going to leave her two

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Speaker 1: children alone in the house through Saturday. Everybody who has

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Speaker 1: to to me and to the police has stressed how

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Speaker 1: responsible Bromwin was. If anything, Bromwin was overly protective. That's

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Speaker 1: the message I took from all of these conversations with witnesses,

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Speaker 1: and they ranged from those who were close to her

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Speaker 1: to others who didn't know her well but just saw

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Speaker 1: her attentiveness. You heard from Virginia Bevis in the previous

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Speaker 1: episode when she mentioned that her daughter had babysat on

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Speaker 1: the Saturday night when broman went to the birthday party

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Speaker 1: in Lennox. Virginia remembers Bromwin disclosing that her stepdaughter Jody

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Speaker 1: had telephoned the house after broman and the girls had

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Speaker 1: moved back into Sandstone Crescent, and.

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Speaker 12: Jodi rang it when she moved back in and said,

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Speaker 12: how do you move back in Dad's house?

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Speaker 6: Because she told me that too.

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Speaker 1: Why would that be?

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Speaker 6: How do you She was furious.

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Speaker 12: Yeah, John had said something to Jody, and Jody rang

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Speaker 12: Bromwin in the abused and.

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Speaker 6: I remember.

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Speaker 1: Virginia told me something else, which underlines how careful Bromwin

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Speaker 1: was with her daughters, Crystal and Lauren. Just before Bromwin

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Speaker 1: left for the birthday party on the Saturday evening, she

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Speaker 1: walked with her daughters to the nearby home of Virginia

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Speaker 1: and her husband Lee.

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Speaker 12: She was really nervous, and my husband kept on telling

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Speaker 12: her how great she looked, and it'd be great.

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Speaker 1: And it wasn't that.

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Speaker 6: Late that night that we saw.

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Speaker 1: The reason for the brief meeting was simple. Bromwin had

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Speaker 1: already made an arrangement for her girls to be babysat

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Speaker 1: by Virginia and Lee's daughter Celeste.

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Speaker 6: It was probably Mant sevenish that we saw that she

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Speaker 6: come over.

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Speaker 1: Haw'd she see excited?

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Speaker 12: She was only coming over to pick up our daughter

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Speaker 12: to take her back there across the road to babysit.

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Speaker 6: That's why I said she'd never leave those kids.

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Speaker 7: And she carried the kids in too.

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Speaker 1: It was about her wanting to look after your daughter

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Speaker 1: and hers. Yeah at the same time.

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Speaker 6: Yeah, yeah, no, she brought him in.

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Speaker 1: You just found that was reinforcement with or view that

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Speaker 1: she was a very dating mother.

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Speaker 12: Oh god, Ja, even at work at Eden's, it's a

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Speaker 12: nursing Lauren on her breaks.

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Speaker 6: And then she wouldn't leave those kids for the world.

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Speaker 1: You saw her being fairly devoted with her kids.

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Speaker 5: Just knock on the door. She carried Lauren in and

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Speaker 5: they were all round way in the world.

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Speaker 7: She would lead it.

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Speaker 6: But I never saw her again.

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Speaker 1: Several hours before Virginia saw her for the last time,

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Speaker 1: Bronwyn telephoned the home of Richard and Jane Johnston in Sydney.

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Speaker 1: Richard Johnston is a cousin of John Winfield, and Richard's

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Speaker 1: wife Jane had become Bromwin's friend. They lived close by

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Speaker 1: in the shire and even shared a home there for

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Speaker 1: a month and a half while John was building the

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Speaker 1: house in Sandstone Crescent, Lennox Head. These are the words

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Speaker 1: of Richard and Jane Johnston. These are not their voices.

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Speaker 13: I became a bit of a confidant to Bronwyn and

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Speaker 13: I got to know her extremely well. We would often

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Speaker 13: talk on the telephone, and it was mostly for an

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Speaker 13: hour at a time. When Bronwyn moved to Lennox Head,

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Speaker 13: we still kept in constant contact. In fact, no longer

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Speaker 13: than a month would go by without a phone call.

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Speaker 13: I noticed that the telephone calls from Bronwyn during the

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Speaker 13: latter part of nineteen ninety two and the early part

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Speaker 13: of nineteen ninety three contained more specific complaints. These complaints

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Speaker 13: concerned the possibility of violence. She would often state to

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Speaker 13: me that she was scared of John and worried that

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Speaker 13: he would hit her, Although she never ever told me

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Speaker 13: that he did, and I'm sure she would have if

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Speaker 13: it had occurred. She did inform me after Christmas that

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Speaker 13: year he had backed her up against the kitchen cabinets

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Speaker 13: and raised his hand as if to hit her, but

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Speaker 13: then just walked away. She would always tell me during

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Speaker 13: these conversations that she felt like leaving John, and at

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Speaker 13: one point I told her to leave if it was

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Speaker 13: really as bad as she said. She would also tell

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Speaker 13: me that John would keep her short of money and

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Speaker 13: wouldn't let her have any more than about thirty dollars

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Speaker 13: in her purse. She would have to account for every

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Speaker 13: cent that he had given her, and she had to

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Speaker 13: ask for everything she needed. She couldn't just go and

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Speaker 13: draw money from the bank. She did say on one

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Speaker 13: occasion that John would not give her any money because

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Speaker 13: he wanted to make sure she couldn't leave.

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Speaker 1: When Richard Johnston spoke to police, he explained that when

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Speaker 1: he and Jane had last visited Bromwin and John in

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Speaker 1: the Lennox in October the previous year.

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Speaker 14: There was some fiction between them. I recall that it

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Speaker 14: was a very uncomfortable evening. I did not see any

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Speaker 14: physical contact between them, but there seemed to have been

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Speaker 14: some verbal confrontation between them.

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Speaker 1: Earlier, Richard told police about the call that he received

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Speaker 1: the day before Bronwyn vanished.

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Speaker 14: The next time I had any contact was on Saturday,

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Speaker 14: May fifteen, nineteen ninety three. I was at home when

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Speaker 14: Bronwyn rang on the telephone and asked for Jane. This

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Speaker 14: would have been somewhere between two thirty and three pm

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Speaker 14: in the afternoon. I told Bronwyn that Jane was overseas

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Speaker 14: but would be back in a few weeks. Bronwyn seemed

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Speaker 14: very upset on the telephone, and I asked her, could

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Speaker 14: I have Jane ring her. Bronwyn said for me not

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Speaker 14: to worry and she would ring her later. I did

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Speaker 14: not know why Bronwyn was upset, but I could tell

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Speaker 14: something was bothering her by the tone of her voice.

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Speaker 1: Richard and Jane had emigrated from the United Kingdom several

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Speaker 1: years earlier, and coincidentally, Richard flew to the UK on

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Speaker 1: May sixteen, and he and Jane returned to Australia in

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Speaker 1: June of that year, nineteen ninety three. By then, Bronwyn

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Speaker 1: had been missing for a month.

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Speaker 14: I have never had any contact with Bronwyn since what's

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Speaker 14: the last phone call on May fifteen, nineteen ninety three.

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Speaker 14: John has told me that he has had no contact

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Speaker 14: with Bronwyn either.

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Speaker 13: I feel certain that if she was still alive, she

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Speaker 13: would have made contact with her children if nobody else.

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Speaker 13: She was a very devoted mother, and I am certain

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Speaker 13: that she would not have left the children willingly.

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Speaker 1: Shortly before the release of this episode, for Cristel assured

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Speaker 1: friends and family of her hopes for a result from

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Speaker 1: the podcast investigation into the disappearance of her mother, Bronwyn.

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Speaker 1: Cristel does not know what happened to her mother. She

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Speaker 1: likes to post photographs of her. More photos, including some

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Speaker 1: Crystal has never seen, are being sent in now by

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Speaker 1: people who knew Bronwyn. Some of the images include Crystal

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Speaker 1: from when she was a little girl. I doubt Cristel

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Speaker 1: will talk on the record in this podcast, and I

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Speaker 1: haven't asked her to be a participant. It's well understood

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Speaker 1: on Bromwyn's side of the family that Crystal doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to upset her sister Lauren or her stepfather, John Winfield.

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Speaker 1: Lauren hasn't had contact with her mom's side of the

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Speaker 1: family for three decades, but Cristel is close to the

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Speaker 1: read relations. In Cristel's recent message to her friends and

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Speaker 1: family via Facebook, she posted some happy photographs of herself.

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Speaker 1: She wrote, I just want.

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Speaker 15: To thank everyone that has reached out to me this

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Speaker 15: week to see how I'm doing. In conjunction with the

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Speaker 15: recent Headley Thomas podcast release of my mother's disappearance. It

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Speaker 15: has not been easy all these years. I chose not

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Speaker 15: to be involved in it for various reasons. However, I

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Speaker 15: do have a few theories on her disappearance based on

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Speaker 15: my own life experiences, and maybe someone out there knows

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Speaker 15: the truth. Maybe we can finally solve this mystery and

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Speaker 15: put it all behind us. It's been so nice to

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Speaker 15: reconnect with so many of you, and.

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Speaker 1: Now weekends with Peter Vegan on four VC.

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Speaker 16: Good Morning, Brisbane, Happy Saturday. It is the first of

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Speaker 16: June and the first day of whinther It's the case

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Speaker 16: of Bronwyn Winfield, who went missing from her home in

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Speaker 16: Lennox Head thirty one years ago, leaving behind her two

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Speaker 16: children and never to be heard from again. I listened

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Speaker 16: to that Bronwen podcast yesterday and for people on the

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Speaker 16: outside that don't understand how we work. If we're trying

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Speaker 16: to get a family to speak about, whether it's a

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Speaker 16: cold case an accident, at times you have to offer

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Speaker 16: them a guarantee or a result, and families expect that

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Speaker 16: if they do speak to you, that something is going

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Speaker 16: to happen. How difficult is it for you Headley, to

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Speaker 16: sit down with a family and not be able to

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Speaker 16: guarantee that there's going to be an outcome if they

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Speaker 16: tell their story.

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Speaker 1: I have a general rule.

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Speaker 10: I don't want to raise expectations to such a level

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Speaker 10: that they believe they're definitely going to get justice that

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Speaker 10: they believe has been denied for sometimes decades. I assure

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Speaker 10: them that I'll give it absolute total commitment. It will

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Speaker 10: bring mistiness who knows something, who have never talked before

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Speaker 10: out of the woodwork. It causes people who have been

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Speaker 10: keeping secrets a long time to think, I don't want

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Speaker 10: to do this anymore. I actually want to tell Headley

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Speaker 10: or the cops something that I saw or heard, something.

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Speaker 7: That might be relevant.

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Speaker 10: And that's why it's never too late with these cases.

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Speaker 10: There's always a possibility of more and fresh, better information

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Speaker 10: being produced. Unfortunately, a lot of cold cases that they

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Speaker 10: can just age and go stale in an unsolved homicide

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Speaker 10: squad's filing cabinet where there are so many of these.

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Speaker 10: What the podcast investigations can do is all of the

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Speaker 10: information in a coherent way over multiple episodes and attract

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Speaker 10: witnesses who have never talked.

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Speaker 16: Before for people that may not be aware of Bromwin Winfield.

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Speaker 16: She was a young mother that lived in the town

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Speaker 16: of lenox Head in New South Wales, a very small town.

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Speaker 16: Head Lee a lot of people would find it difficult

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Speaker 16: to keep secrets in a town like Lenox Head. But

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Speaker 16: once again we have this, Oh the mother just took

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Speaker 16: off mentality.

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Speaker 10: How deeply stupid is that proposition? Then somebody could just

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Speaker 10: sort of start again without the children that they've always

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Speaker 10: dosed on, without leaving any trace, any evidence of life.

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Speaker 10: And in Bromin's case, she's a very dedicated mother of two.

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Speaker 1: Why would she take off?

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Speaker 16: For someone to think that the mother would just leave

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Speaker 16: their children a devoted mother. We hope that some good

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Speaker 16: and I'm sure it will will come out of this

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Speaker 16: podcast series.

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Speaker 10: I really appreciate pir Thank you.

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Speaker 1: This podcast series may be the last chance to solve

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Speaker 1: a mystery spanning three decades, the last opportunity for Bromwin's

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Speaker 1: family and loved ones and friends to know the truth.

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Speaker 1: If you know something about Bromwin, about her marriage, about

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Speaker 1: her fate that you believe could make some difference, even

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Speaker 1: a small difference, then send me an email confidentially. The

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Speaker 1: address is Bromwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

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Speaker 1: Let's go back to the police statement of John's daughter Jody,

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Speaker 1: describing the events of the Saturday afternoon.

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Speaker 11: I started ringing at four pm, and from memory, I

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Speaker 11: think she answered and hung up when she heard my

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Speaker 11: voice because she knew what was going to happen. I

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Speaker 11: tried ringing her straight after, but she must have left

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Speaker 11: the phone off the hook again. It was off the

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Speaker 11: hook all night. I told Dad and he made arrangements

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Speaker 11: to fly to Balaner the following day. I felt that

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Speaker 11: I was out of the situation then when Dad was

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Speaker 11: going back home to sort it out, so I left

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Speaker 11: it to him. I can't recall whether I tried ringing

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Speaker 11: the following day. The following afternoon, Sunday, May sixteenth, nineteen

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Speaker 11: ninety three, I drove Dad to the Sydney Airport so

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Speaker 11: that he could catch the plane to Balliner.

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Speaker 1: The last time I spoke to bron was on the Saturday.

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Speaker 17: We then later found out that she had a shift

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Speaker 17: at the takeaway shop on the Sunday afternoon, and the

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Speaker 17: girls were at home playing with the next door neighbor

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Speaker 17: on the life side, Debbie's kids, and Debbie was looking

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Speaker 17: after him and the kids were sort of playing him

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Speaker 17: in the tree.

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Speaker 1: Holmes, John's older brother by two years, Peter Winfield, was

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Speaker 1: interviewed by the police. Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight. Peter said he hadn't been aware of trouble

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Speaker 1: in the marriage until he heard that Bromwin had moved

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Speaker 1: out of the house. It was during this separation period

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Speaker 1: that John moved to Sydney for work, and for a

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Speaker 1: while he stayed at his brother Peter's house.

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Speaker 4: I can't recall how long John stayed with us, or

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Speaker 4: if he confided with me in what was happening in

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Speaker 4: his private life. I do remember that all of a sudden,

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Speaker 4: John had heard that Bronwin had returned or was going

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Speaker 4: to return to the family home at Lennox Head. I

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Speaker 4: think John was worried that if he didn't go back,

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Speaker 4: he would find out that he would be locked out

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Speaker 4: and it wouldn't be his home anymore.

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Speaker 1: It's the same view expressed by his niece, John's daughter Jody,

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Speaker 1: that the partner living in the house could make the

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Speaker 1: stronger claim to ownership of the house.

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Speaker 4: I remember leaving our home to go to Bowena. I

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Speaker 4: don't recall whether he said anything about Bronwyn or what

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Speaker 4: was happening at that stage.

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Speaker 1: Peter's wife, Louise, however, had a better memory.

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Speaker 18: John came and saw us and told us that Bronwyn

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Speaker 18: and the kids had left the house in Lennox Head

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Speaker 18: and moved into a townhouse. John was very upset and

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Speaker 18: very emotional at that time. He considered that it was

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Speaker 18: very unfair that someone could take the children away from

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Speaker 18: him so easily. John also said that he was worried

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Speaker 18: that if Bronwin moved back into the house and he

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Speaker 18: wasn't living there, that he would then be unable to

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Speaker 18: return to the house himself. As far as I recall,

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Speaker 18: he told us that he was going back to Lenox

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Speaker 18: Head to prevent this happening.

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Speaker 1: John had been bricklaying at a house in Sydney owned

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Speaker 1: by a contact he had made in the building industry,

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Speaker 1: Glenn Webster. When John wasn't on the job, he stayed

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Speaker 1: in a house Glenn and his wife were renting while

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Speaker 1: their own home was being built with John's help. This

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Speaker 1: is what Glenn webs did old police during the investigation

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Speaker 1: by Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor in nineteen ninety eight.

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Speaker 19: I recall while the work was going on, John suddenly left.

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Speaker 19: John didn't tell me where he was going. I don't

445
00:25:12,200 --> 00:25:14,639
Speaker 19: remember how I found out, but I later established that

446
00:25:14,720 --> 00:25:17,720
Speaker 19: John had gone up to Lennox Head. During the time

447
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:19,800
Speaker 19: that John stayed at our home in Dixon Clothes. He

448
00:25:19,840 --> 00:25:22,120
Speaker 19: never mentioned Broman, and at no stage did he ever

449
00:25:22,160 --> 00:25:24,040
Speaker 19: tell me that Broman had moved out of his family

450
00:25:24,080 --> 00:25:27,399
Speaker 19: home in Lennox Head. On occasions he used our phone

451
00:25:27,400 --> 00:25:29,280
Speaker 19: to call home, but I didn't take any notice of

452
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:30,720
Speaker 19: his conversations.

453
00:25:31,240 --> 00:25:33,840
Speaker 1: Glenn's wife, Jane Webster added.

454
00:25:34,359 --> 00:25:37,480
Speaker 20: I recall that on one occasion, John Winfield phoned his

455
00:25:37,600 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 20: home when he was staying with us. I remember that

456
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 20: he seemed concerned following this telephone call. I remember asking

457
00:25:44,400 --> 00:25:47,240
Speaker 20: John if everything was all right, and he said yes.

458
00:25:48,119 --> 00:25:50,640
Speaker 20: John was not the type of person to disclose anything

459
00:25:50,680 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 20: of his personal life.

460
00:25:53,440 --> 00:25:56,439
Speaker 1: I went with Madison Walsh to meet Mel Taylor in

461
00:25:56,480 --> 00:26:01,000
Speaker 1: a Brisbane public library after Mel had finished work. Mel

462
00:26:01,119 --> 00:26:04,280
Speaker 1: grew up in the home next to John and Bromwin's home.

463
00:26:05,200 --> 00:26:09,280
Speaker 1: Mel's parents are Murray and deb and Mel's childhood best

464
00:26:09,320 --> 00:26:12,119
Speaker 1: friend back then was Crystal Bronwin's daughter.

465
00:26:12,880 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 5: How do I know you?

466
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:15,000
Speaker 21: I know it looks really familiar.

467
00:26:15,160 --> 00:26:18,680
Speaker 22: I am Bromwin's second cousin, so I'm quite close to Crystal.

468
00:26:19,480 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 1: Now let's go back to Lennox's Head, nineteen ninety three.

469
00:26:24,960 --> 00:26:28,320
Speaker 1: What do you remember about Sunday May sixteen?

470
00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:32,040
Speaker 21: I know I was at the park with Crystal and

471
00:26:32,119 --> 00:26:39,199
Speaker 21: Lauren that afternoon around five point thirty ish, sixish. I

472
00:26:39,240 --> 00:26:41,919
Speaker 21: came home before the girls came home. Bromin came to

473
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:46,240
Speaker 21: that door and she's like, oh, hey, is Lauren and

474
00:26:46,280 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 21: Crystal here? And like, no, they're at the park. And

475
00:26:48,240 --> 00:26:50,960
Speaker 21: she said to me, can you go get them because

476
00:26:50,960 --> 00:26:52,040
Speaker 21: her father's coming home.

477
00:26:52,520 --> 00:26:54,640
Speaker 7: Is it a strong memory, Yeah, it's a strong memory, yep.

478
00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 1: But your confident that was the day she read.

479
00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:57,920
Speaker 21: Yeah, because it was a Sunday night.

480
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,080
Speaker 1: It was clear to her then that johnthan was coming back.

481
00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 21: Yeah, because she had just come home from work. We

482
00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:08,480
Speaker 21: were looking after Lauren and Crystal. I had gone with

483
00:27:09,080 --> 00:27:14,400
Speaker 21: Crystal and a mum to the house to take boxes

484
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:18,160
Speaker 21: back to Sandstone Present. I wouldn't know how she'd found

485
00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:20,720
Speaker 21: out that he was coming home. I think she did

486
00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,440
Speaker 21: say to me that he was coming on a flight.

487
00:27:24,920 --> 00:27:27,960
Speaker 1: As a twelve year old girl in nineteen ninety three,

488
00:27:28,400 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: Mel tried to stay out of John's way.

489
00:27:31,720 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 21: Us to frighten me the way he used to treat

490
00:27:34,600 --> 00:27:40,160
Speaker 21: the girls, his demeanor and he mess whatsoever, he would

491
00:27:40,200 --> 00:27:43,879
Speaker 21: just go crazy, very strict.

492
00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,400
Speaker 1: Are you're going to be strict and not scary?

493
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 21: I think it was this because of the strength of him,

494
00:27:50,960 --> 00:27:54,399
Speaker 21: just my memory of the person he was seeing him

495
00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:57,360
Speaker 21: working out with his branch press and yeah, that wasn't

496
00:27:57,400 --> 00:27:58,800
Speaker 21: the garage.

497
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,480
Speaker 1: Did he get cross with you or angry with him?

498
00:28:01,560 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 21: Not to me.

499
00:28:02,960 --> 00:28:03,160
Speaker 1: No.

500
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 21: If the girls had eaten any food and they made

501
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,800
Speaker 21: a mess on the floor with the food, he had

502
00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:12,720
Speaker 21: seen it, he would be very angry. Said, well, that's

503
00:28:12,760 --> 00:28:16,719
Speaker 21: to play over something that was spilt on the floor.

504
00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 21: I went talking like minimal like crumbs. And then the

505
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:22,560
Speaker 21: girl's wan allowed to come out and play after that.

506
00:28:23,200 --> 00:28:25,120
Speaker 1: What about with Bromwin? How did you observe her?

507
00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:27,560
Speaker 21: I love Bromwin. I found out she was such a

508
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 21: beautiful person.

509
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,520
Speaker 1: What was it about Bromwen you liked?

510
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,600
Speaker 21: She would have done anything for those kids, And that's

511
00:28:34,600 --> 00:28:38,320
Speaker 21: what's sad about the whole situation, Like she was, I

512
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 21: was trying to prepare for a better life with the kids.

513
00:28:42,640 --> 00:28:45,600
Speaker 9: Giving and taking is equally important, for without the taking,

514
00:28:45,680 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 9: you lose all feelings of self worth and self esteem.

515
00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:53,000
Speaker 9: It can be extremely dangerous and have disastrous repercussions on

516
00:28:53,040 --> 00:28:56,360
Speaker 9: those around you, especially with children.

517
00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,920
Speaker 1: In Bowna, a man called John Watson received a tell

518
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: lephone call at his home. He knew John Winfield because

519
00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:06,800
Speaker 1: their respective daughters were friends.

520
00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:09,800
Speaker 23: John was ringing me from Sydney and he asked me

521
00:29:09,840 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 23: if I could pick him up from the Balliner Airport

522
00:29:12,360 --> 00:29:15,240
Speaker 23: and give him a lift home. That night, about six

523
00:29:15,440 --> 00:29:18,200
Speaker 23: thirty pm, I went to the airport and I met John.

524
00:29:18,760 --> 00:29:20,280
Speaker 23: He asked me if I could take him to the

525
00:29:20,320 --> 00:29:24,360
Speaker 23: Balloner police station prior to taking him home. I drove

526
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,400
Speaker 23: him to the police station and I waited in the

527
00:29:26,440 --> 00:29:28,920
Speaker 23: car while he went in. He was in the police

528
00:29:28,960 --> 00:29:30,640
Speaker 23: station for about five minutes.

529
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: After passing the same police station on the drive north

530
00:29:35,360 --> 00:29:38,640
Speaker 1: back to Brisbane, I spoke to Madison Walsh about Bromwin

531
00:29:38,880 --> 00:29:42,000
Speaker 1: and the probable reason for John's visit on the evening

532
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 1: of May sixteenth, nineteen ninety three.

533
00:29:46,440 --> 00:29:50,960
Speaker 24: I think she was trying to get an apprehended violence order.

534
00:29:52,960 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 24: I reckon she was trying to get that through with

535
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 24: one of the solicitors she was consulting, and that's why

536
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 24: he went to the police station after he landed.

537
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 5: Definitely like that's not normal behavior.

538
00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,360
Speaker 1: But it hadn't actually been implemented before John came back

539
00:30:13,400 --> 00:30:14,080
Speaker 1: from Sydney.

540
00:30:14,560 --> 00:30:17,440
Speaker 25: Yeah, that was my thought, because why else would you

541
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:21,160
Speaker 25: go to the police station before going to your house. Yeah,

542
00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:23,680
Speaker 25: so he definitely would have assumed that she would have

543
00:30:23,720 --> 00:30:25,800
Speaker 25: filed something, but it just hadn't been put through.

544
00:30:26,000 --> 00:30:28,360
Speaker 24: Well, it's quite possible that they'd had a conversation when

545
00:30:28,440 --> 00:30:32,960
Speaker 24: he rang and spoke to him before he left Sydney, and.

546
00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: She might have said something like I've got an order

547
00:30:35,960 --> 00:30:37,920
Speaker 1: or I'm getting an order or something, and he wanted

548
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 1: to check that.

549
00:30:39,840 --> 00:30:43,600
Speaker 5: Because I remember learning in legal studies.

550
00:30:43,160 --> 00:30:46,040
Speaker 22: That sometimes you actually have to go into the court

551
00:30:46,240 --> 00:30:49,080
Speaker 22: to get the ABO signed for it to be official.

552
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:52,560
Speaker 22: So I don't know if that was like the next

553
00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:56,240
Speaker 22: process or anything like that to get it confirmed.

554
00:30:56,560 --> 00:30:58,600
Speaker 1: But I can have a look into it and see.

555
00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:04,480
Speaker 1: Obviously this area has evolved a lot in recent years,

556
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,600
Speaker 1: but thirty one years ago, I don't know what was there.

557
00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 25: I don't know, but I can definitely look being there somewhere.

558
00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:17,640
Speaker 26: There's an online resource where you can actually look at

559
00:31:18,160 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 26: the legislation as it existed, say ninety three or ninety eight,

560
00:31:24,040 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 26: whenever you can see what it allowed for what it

561
00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 26: looked like at that time.

562
00:31:29,600 --> 00:31:31,280
Speaker 6: Yeah, definitely.

563
00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 26: There's also evidence that Ronlin rang her solicitor on Sunday

564
00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,000
Speaker 26: while John was in the house.

565
00:31:39,440 --> 00:31:41,720
Speaker 1: I think that's in the statement of the solicitor.

566
00:31:42,760 --> 00:31:43,600
Speaker 5: I'll have a look.

567
00:31:45,920 --> 00:31:50,200
Speaker 1: John Watson recalled that John Winfield then asked him to

568
00:31:50,280 --> 00:31:53,840
Speaker 1: go to the home of Becky McGuire, another of Jodie's

569
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 1: school friends.

570
00:31:55,640 --> 00:31:57,600
Speaker 23: He told me that he wanted Becky to go with

571
00:31:57,680 --> 00:31:58,080
Speaker 23: him when he.

572
00:31:58,120 --> 00:31:58,880
Speaker 1: Went to the house.

573
00:31:59,880 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 23: I drove him to her house, and from memory, Becky

574
00:32:03,400 --> 00:32:07,640
Speaker 23: was either waiting outside or came out when we pulled up,

575
00:32:08,000 --> 00:32:10,960
Speaker 23: and she got into the car. I drove them to

576
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:14,840
Speaker 23: John's house in Sandstone Crescent at Lennoxhead and they got

577
00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 23: out of the car and went to the front door,

578
00:32:16,800 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 23: and I drove home. John told me when he got

579
00:32:19,560 --> 00:32:22,280
Speaker 23: out of the car that he would drive Becky home.

580
00:32:23,320 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 1: Becky McGuire confirmed being collected at her house by John

581
00:32:27,520 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 1: Winfield and John Watson to go to Sandstone Crescent. Becky

582
00:32:32,320 --> 00:32:35,560
Speaker 1: was pregnant with her son at the time. She knew

583
00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:40,520
Speaker 1: Bromwin and her husband. John threw her friendship with Jody.

584
00:32:40,680 --> 00:32:42,800
Speaker 27: He told me that he needed someone there just in

585
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:45,360
Speaker 27: case something happened as he just wanted to pick up

586
00:32:45,360 --> 00:32:48,000
Speaker 27: some clothes and needed a witness there Whilst he did this,

587
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:50,960
Speaker 27: John Watson dropped us on the other side of the road,

588
00:32:50,960 --> 00:32:54,280
Speaker 27: about two doors up from the Winfield's house. John Watson

589
00:32:54,360 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 27: drove away. We walked up to the front of the

590
00:32:56,880 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 27: house and John knocked on the door. The door opened

591
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 27: and Bronwyn and the children were standing at the door.

592
00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:05,880
Speaker 27: I wasn't really paying much attention at the time, but

593
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:09,880
Speaker 27: I recall Bronwyn babbling on about something, but they weren't arguing.

594
00:33:11,040 --> 00:33:14,640
Speaker 1: It does seem an oddly pejoritied way for Becky to

595
00:33:14,720 --> 00:33:17,800
Speaker 1: describe whatever Bronwyn said when John arrived.

596
00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,719
Speaker 27: I can't recall what she was going on about.

597
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:23,000
Speaker 21: She used to babble on all the time.

598
00:33:24,040 --> 00:33:26,920
Speaker 27: Bronwin walked back into the house towards the kitchen and

599
00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 27: John gave the girls a cuddle, and I saw that

600
00:33:29,200 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 27: Lauren was crying. I saw two suitcases inside the doorway,

601
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 27: and John picked them up and put them in the car.

602
00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,000
Speaker 1: Clearly, Bromwyn had packed John's things and put them near

603
00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:43,120
Speaker 1: the front door, ready to go, with the intention of

604
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:47,959
Speaker 1: him taking those two suitcases away the car, which Becky

605
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 1: is referring to is the white Ford Falcon Sedan, the

606
00:33:51,320 --> 00:33:53,360
Speaker 1: one with the squeaky brakes.

607
00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:56,200
Speaker 27: John must have had a set of keys to the car,

608
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:58,280
Speaker 27: because we then got into the car and he drove

609
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:01,320
Speaker 27: me home. I remember who both Crystal and Lauren were

610
00:34:01,320 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 27: standing at the window inside the house watching as we

611
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:08,040
Speaker 27: reversed out of the driveway. John didn't go inside the

612
00:34:08,080 --> 00:34:10,759
Speaker 27: house at all while I was in the house with him.

613
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:13,880
Speaker 27: While we were driving back to my house, John thanked

614
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,920
Speaker 27: me for coming with him and told me he was

615
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,560
Speaker 27: sorry for getting me involved. I haven't seen Bronwin since

616
00:34:19,600 --> 00:34:21,360
Speaker 27: that night I went to her place with John.

617
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,320
Speaker 1: You are going to hear how Becky, who was twenty

618
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 1: two at the time of her statement, perceived Bromwyn.

619
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,520
Speaker 27: During the time that I knew Bronwyn, she had terrible

620
00:34:31,560 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 27: mood swings, and Jody and her would fight a lot

621
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:36,520
Speaker 27: while I was there, and we would go into Jody's

622
00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,840
Speaker 27: bedroom to get away from her. I was positive that

623
00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 27: Bronwin had a split personality, because one minute she was

624
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,360
Speaker 27: fine and friendly, and the next minute she was cranky

625
00:34:45,400 --> 00:34:47,920
Speaker 27: and yelling and generally going off the deep end about

626
00:34:47,920 --> 00:34:48,560
Speaker 27: nothing at all.

627
00:34:50,120 --> 00:34:53,840
Speaker 1: Telephone records show that at seven oh six pm a

628
00:34:54,000 --> 00:34:57,720
Speaker 1: call was made from the home phone at Sandstone Crescent

629
00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,239
Speaker 1: to Peter and Louise Winfield's house in Sydney. John was

630
00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,760
Speaker 1: calling his brother to let him know he had arrived safely.

631
00:35:06,880 --> 00:35:10,680
Speaker 1: It's a call made just thirty six minutes after John

632
00:35:10,760 --> 00:35:13,920
Speaker 1: Watson estimated that he had picked John up from the

633
00:35:13,960 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 1: airport at Ballina. At the house, what happened next, only

634
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:24,640
Speaker 1: two people really knew for sure, bronwin and John.

635
00:35:25,840 --> 00:35:28,840
Speaker 9: Whoever said that love makes the world go round was correct.

636
00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:32,879
Speaker 9: I have felt it all around me recently, some hate

637
00:35:32,920 --> 00:35:36,320
Speaker 9: as well, but mainly the compassion for another person in pain.

638
00:35:37,640 --> 00:35:41,520
Speaker 1: John insists that his estranged wife told him in the

639
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 1: house that evening that she wanted to have a break

640
00:35:44,200 --> 00:35:47,480
Speaker 1: for a few days, and he said she had gone

641
00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 1: into their bedroom and made a telephone call, resulting in

642
00:35:51,040 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: a car he didn't see, driven by an unknown person

643
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:59,080
Speaker 1: stopping outside and Bromin getting in, and John says that's

644
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,719
Speaker 1: the last time he saw his wife. In the episode

645
00:36:03,760 --> 00:36:06,040
Speaker 1: after this one, you are going to hear a lot

646
00:36:06,120 --> 00:36:10,799
Speaker 1: more detail about John's version of events. He explained it

647
00:36:10,840 --> 00:36:14,240
Speaker 1: to the local police in Ballina in nineteen ninety three,

648
00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,360
Speaker 1: and again five years later when Detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor

649
00:36:18,400 --> 00:36:23,600
Speaker 1: became involved and recorded a formal interview. I've obtained the

650
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:26,919
Speaker 1: documentation and I've been comparing it with the versions which

651
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:31,560
Speaker 1: are remembered by Bromman's family and friends. For now, I

652
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 1: want to consider the proposition which is implicit in so

653
00:36:35,000 --> 00:36:38,320
Speaker 1: much of what has been said by Bromman's friends and family,

654
00:36:38,800 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 1: and that is that Bromwin was a very loving mother

655
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:45,839
Speaker 1: who would never have left her two girls. On one

656
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 1: of my drives from Brisbane to Lennox Head, I telephoned

657
00:36:49,200 --> 00:36:54,160
Speaker 1: my friend Brian Jordan, a retired family court judge. Brian

658
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:58,799
Speaker 1: knew nothing about Bromman's disappearance when we spoke, but he

659
00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 1: had closely found though the first podcast series I did

660
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:06,160
Speaker 1: about Lynn Dawson's nineteen eighty two disappearance from the Northern

661
00:37:06,200 --> 00:37:11,440
Speaker 1: Beaches and the suspicion which fell eventually onto her husband Chris.

662
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,920
Speaker 1: Listeners of The Teacher's Pet might recall Brian, who was

663
00:37:16,000 --> 00:37:21,200
Speaker 1: featured in several episodes as the investigation unfolded in twenty eighteen.

664
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:26,520
Speaker 1: Here's a brief snippet from one of those episodes. In

665
00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:30,319
Speaker 1: June nineteen eighty three, with Lynn a fading memory for

666
00:37:30,440 --> 00:37:34,279
Speaker 1: her very young children. Chris and Lynn were divorced. I

667
00:37:34,400 --> 00:37:38,280
Speaker 1: asked Brian Jordan, a friend and a retired senior judge,

668
00:37:38,440 --> 00:37:41,920
Speaker 1: to review some of the documents from the coronial proceedings.

669
00:37:42,400 --> 00:37:46,759
Speaker 1: What's the minimum period that two married people must be

670
00:37:46,840 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 1: separated before they can apply for a divorce?

671
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:55,640
Speaker 28: A minimum of twelve months, and a mere separation itself

672
00:37:56,040 --> 00:38:00,799
Speaker 28: may not qualify it. The relationship must be ended. There

673
00:38:00,880 --> 00:38:04,640
Speaker 28: must be an irretrievable breakdown of the marriage. Now, I

674
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:09,000
Speaker 28: don't know, and you'd know more whether mister Dawson acknowledges

675
00:38:09,040 --> 00:38:13,160
Speaker 28: that the relationship was over the day his wife walked

676
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:13,680
Speaker 28: out of the.

677
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:18,839
Speaker 1: Home, well legedly walked out in Bronwin's case, another mother

678
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,920
Speaker 1: in a failing marriage, another deeply suspicious disappearance. Six years

679
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,480
Speaker 1: after Brian spoke about the legalities of separation and divorce

680
00:38:29,640 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 1: for an episode in The Teacher's Pet about Chris and Lynn,

681
00:38:33,480 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 1: we talked about Bronwyn her disappearance and John, let's go

682
00:38:39,160 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: back to late twenty seventeen and early twenty eighteen. You

683
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,800
Speaker 1: were interested in podcast investigation I was doing at that

684
00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:53,360
Speaker 1: time into the disappearance of Lynn and that was for

685
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:59,799
Speaker 1: the teacher's pets. What stood out for you most in

686
00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:02,799
Speaker 1: that case when I first described it to you.

687
00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,719
Speaker 29: As soon as you mention that she left her four

688
00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:12,440
Speaker 29: year old and two year old daughter, so she had

689
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 29: difficulty with conceiving those two children and was a convoted,

690
00:39:16,520 --> 00:39:20,280
Speaker 29: dedicated mother, my ears picked up and I started paying

691
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 29: attention and our.

692
00:39:21,400 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 5: End of saying, just she didn't leave those children. It

693
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:30,040
Speaker 5: was that dark that It was that moment that comstallized,

694
00:39:30,080 --> 00:39:32,280
Speaker 5: and it gave me the interest in the story.

695
00:39:32,400 --> 00:39:36,439
Speaker 29: And it's not a conclusive because of study.

696
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:38,239
Speaker 5: It's a compelling piece.

697
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 29: Of circumstantial evidence her wife family, without any prior indication

698
00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:49,320
Speaker 29: of intentions do so people walk out of their lives

699
00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,160
Speaker 29: for her two children to never see them again, never

700
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:55,800
Speaker 29: inquire about them again.

701
00:39:56,440 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 5: It's just inherently improbable.

702
00:40:00,080 --> 00:40:05,000
Speaker 29: Session is so improbable as to cause one in one

703
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:08,680
Speaker 29: to look for other reasons for children being abandoned other

704
00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 29: than the car and walking out on their lives.

705
00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:19,680
Speaker 1: I know you, Brian, as a very dedicated father and husband,

706
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: and Pauline, your wife, as a very dedicated mother, But

707
00:40:26,360 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: what else are you facing that view on, apart from

708
00:40:31,560 --> 00:40:36,960
Speaker 1: your own observations of Pauline and perhaps other brothers.

709
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:42,799
Speaker 30: You know, a culmination of factors, including twenty years just

710
00:40:42,840 --> 00:40:47,719
Speaker 30: a family called joke, carrying children's cases on an almost

711
00:40:47,840 --> 00:40:53,320
Speaker 30: daily base, and seeing the extent to which parents we

712
00:40:53,920 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 30: go to the brink to retain a relationship with contact

713
00:40:58,600 --> 00:40:59,400
Speaker 30: with their children.

714
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,879
Speaker 5: Stinkive thing.

715
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:05,960
Speaker 29: There's bonding with their children that they find impossible to

716
00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:06,400
Speaker 29: let go.

717
00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:09,319
Speaker 5: Also, in the course of.

718
00:41:09,320 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 29: Hearing cases for twenty years, I did hear in olog

719
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 29: experience getting evidence about the bonding between parents and their children,

720
00:41:20,400 --> 00:41:27,120
Speaker 29: and in particular the bond between mother, biological mother and

721
00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:35,359
Speaker 29: young children is extremely strong. It's what enables parents and

722
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,680
Speaker 29: in this case mothers so almost invaribly.

723
00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:40,400
Speaker 5: Took their own lives.

724
00:41:40,760 --> 00:41:43,799
Speaker 31: I had those and their children if it comes to

725
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 31: those sorts of terrible choice. So it's my personal experience,

726
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,560
Speaker 31: my experience as a family lawyer.

727
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:57,240
Speaker 29: And visiting new experts that I can't remember a case

728
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 29: where a mother had abandoned her John cares fewer question.

729
00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:07,680
Speaker 29: What did the investigation, the inevitable investigation of the table

730
00:42:07,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 29: one suspect to the husband, what did that reveal?

731
00:42:13,160 --> 00:42:13,440
Speaker 5: Well?

732
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:22,200
Speaker 1: The original investigation by police in nineteen ninety three was

733
00:42:23,760 --> 00:42:30,480
Speaker 1: very peacemeal. I gave Brian a summary of the separation

734
00:42:30,800 --> 00:42:33,799
Speaker 1: and then the last days of Bromwin in Lennox Head.

735
00:42:34,400 --> 00:42:37,200
Speaker 1: How she had moved back into the house at Sandstone

736
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,759
Speaker 1: Crescent with her two girls on a Friday afternoon in

737
00:42:40,800 --> 00:42:44,960
Speaker 1: May nineteen ninety three while John was away working in Sydney,

738
00:42:46,360 --> 00:42:50,719
Speaker 1: and she was there through the Saturday. On the Sunday

739
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:57,440
Speaker 1: early evening, John turned up. He flew from Sydney to Ballana.

740
00:42:58,000 --> 00:43:02,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't schedule. He left his work job suddenly because

741
00:43:02,400 --> 00:43:05,600
Speaker 1: he must have become aware that Bromin was back in

742
00:43:05,800 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 1: the home.

743
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:09,680
Speaker 5: And how then have they been separated.

744
00:43:10,680 --> 00:43:15,359
Speaker 1: A couple of months. He went to the home. Now

745
00:43:15,360 --> 00:43:18,280
Speaker 1: we don't know what happened next apart from what he says.

746
00:43:18,960 --> 00:43:23,719
Speaker 1: The children, they were very young. It was close to bedtimes.

747
00:43:23,800 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 1: Believed that they were put to bed.

748
00:43:26,080 --> 00:43:32,840
Speaker 26: John says that there was a disagreement, but not he did.

749
00:43:33,120 --> 00:43:35,600
Speaker 1: He says that Bromin said she needed some time away

750
00:43:35,600 --> 00:43:38,480
Speaker 1: from the kitchen, needed a break. That she made a

751
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: telephone call and somebody came to pick her up and

752
00:43:42,880 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 1: she left. I told Brian that the next thing that

753
00:43:46,640 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 1: happened close to eleven PM after Bromman had purportedly left

754
00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:54,600
Speaker 1: in an unknown person's car. Was the sighting of the

755
00:43:54,640 --> 00:44:00,520
Speaker 1: Winfield car the white Ford Falcon leaving the house rolling

756
00:44:00,520 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: down the driveway, but the headlights weren't turned on and the.

757
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:10,240
Speaker 32: Engine wasn't on either, so it rolled silently down the hill,

758
00:44:11,360 --> 00:44:14,240
Speaker 32: and then at the bottom of the hill the lights

759
00:44:14,280 --> 00:44:16,080
Speaker 32: came on and the engine was turned on.

760
00:44:16,719 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 1: The other observation by that witness was that as the

761
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:26,040
Speaker 1: car left the driveway to turn onto the road and

762
00:44:26,480 --> 00:44:32,800
Speaker 1: rolled down hill, there was a scraping noise. He resumed

763
00:44:32,840 --> 00:44:36,160
Speaker 1: it was from the back of the vehicle, and John

764
00:44:36,280 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: drove through the night. It wasn't planned. He took the

765
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:43,719
Speaker 1: girls to Sidney. The marriage had been under quite a

766
00:44:43,800 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 1: lot of strain. She, according to the statements by some

767
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:49,440
Speaker 1: of her.

768
00:44:49,320 --> 00:44:57,520
Speaker 33: Friends, was concerned about John, somewhat fearful. Her uncle observed

769
00:44:58,200 --> 00:44:59,399
Speaker 33: bruising on her arm.

770
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 1: Roberts said that John had assaulted her in his usual

771
00:45:05,040 --> 00:45:09,560
Speaker 1: measured way. Brian injected a note of caution. He referenced

772
00:45:09,560 --> 00:45:13,600
Speaker 1: the Teacher's Pet podcast and the eventual case against Chris Dawson,

773
00:45:13,640 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 1: who was found guilty of Lynd's murder in August twenty

774
00:45:16,719 --> 00:45:17,920
Speaker 1: twenty two.

775
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,440
Speaker 5: You've got to be mindful of the trump. Your instincts

776
00:45:23,440 --> 00:45:23,959
Speaker 5: were right.

777
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 29: Your investigations were central to the eventual successful prosecution.

778
00:45:29,840 --> 00:45:30,600
Speaker 5: Of that man.

779
00:45:31,239 --> 00:45:36,440
Speaker 29: Doesn't guarantee that you're infallible on another matter that you're pursuing,

780
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 29: Does it say?

781
00:45:37,719 --> 00:45:42,400
Speaker 5: Cause is always required? In the sense of matter.

782
00:46:04,960 --> 00:46:09,160
Speaker 1: You're going to hear again now from Michelle Reid, Bronwin's

783
00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 1: sister in law, the wife of Andy Reid. She's describing

784
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:17,640
Speaker 1: an unexpected event at their Sydney home on the afternoon

785
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:22,920
Speaker 1: of Monday, May seventeenth, nineteen ninety three. Andy had not

786
00:46:23,080 --> 00:46:27,920
Speaker 1: yet arrived home from work. What do you learn on Monday?

787
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 34: I was just in the kitchen and there was a

788
00:46:32,160 --> 00:46:33,040
Speaker 34: knock on the door.

789
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:35,640
Speaker 5: I didn't have my glasses on.

790
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:38,320
Speaker 34: I couldn't work out who it was because I looked

791
00:46:38,440 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 34: down the hallway to the front door. When I got

792
00:46:41,320 --> 00:46:45,400
Speaker 34: down there, I was really shocked to see John and

793
00:46:45,520 --> 00:46:46,440
Speaker 34: the two girls.

794
00:46:46,640 --> 00:46:48,040
Speaker 5: Wow, what's going on?

795
00:46:49,480 --> 00:46:51,880
Speaker 34: I thought they were in Lennox.

796
00:46:52,560 --> 00:46:53,280
Speaker 21: At that point.

797
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,839
Speaker 34: We didn't know that John had taken himself up there

798
00:46:58,120 --> 00:46:59,560
Speaker 34: because we hadn't.

799
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:00,960
Speaker 6: Heard any of that.

800
00:47:00,960 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 34: That all happened, and then John was all the was

801
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 34: sung with the kids. So I said, what are you

802
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:16,360
Speaker 34: doing here? John was nervous talking, he was mumbly. He

803
00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 34: actually ushered the kids inside because he didn't.

804
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:21,160
Speaker 6: Want to talk in front of them.

805
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:25,040
Speaker 34: And we were standing on our little front veranda, just

806
00:47:25,120 --> 00:47:29,759
Speaker 34: cheir and I. He said, oh, Bromwin's left me, and

807
00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:34,480
Speaker 34: I went, oh, okay. He was like jittery and all

808
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,360
Speaker 34: of that, and then he said, well, actually she needed

809
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:40,359
Speaker 34: a break. She's going on a holiday. And I thought

810
00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 34: to myself, oh, is she on a holiday or she

811
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 34: left him?

812
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 21: Like, in my head, I'm thinking that's weird.

813
00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 34: It's just my nature to be a little bit suspicious

814
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:50,240
Speaker 34: and stuff.

815
00:47:50,800 --> 00:47:53,440
Speaker 1: But to your knowledge, she had already left it.

816
00:47:54,400 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 34: And then he switched it to she needed a break,

817
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 34: she needs a break, and she going to get her

818
00:48:00,719 --> 00:48:01,640
Speaker 34: head together.

819
00:48:01,440 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 21: For her and so he brought the kids to Sydney.

820
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:08,480
Speaker 1: You'd heard from Romwin previously that there was no going back. Yep,

821
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:09,800
Speaker 1: the marriage was finished.

822
00:48:09,880 --> 00:48:10,080
Speaker 21: Yep.

823
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:13,840
Speaker 34: When he first spoke, he was going down the lines

824
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,040
Speaker 34: of she's walked out and left, and she's left me

825
00:48:17,160 --> 00:48:21,080
Speaker 34: with the kids, and then it switched to she needed

826
00:48:21,120 --> 00:48:23,600
Speaker 34: a break for a few days, She's gone away for

827
00:48:23,640 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 34: a few days to get her head together. I said

828
00:48:26,239 --> 00:48:30,040
Speaker 34: to him where he's staying, and they decided they'd stay

829
00:48:30,160 --> 00:48:32,560
Speaker 34: with us, So I said, come on, we'll go and

830
00:48:32,600 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 34: get have you got stuff. Went up to the back

831
00:48:35,560 --> 00:48:37,279
Speaker 34: of the car he was packed in our cul de

832
00:48:37,400 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 34: sac on the road, and he opened the boot. He

833
00:48:41,520 --> 00:48:46,960
Speaker 34: was picking up pillowcases, and inside pillowcases were just kids clothes,

834
00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:50,600
Speaker 34: stuff like stuffed in a pillowcase, pillowcase here and a

835
00:48:50,640 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 34: pillowcase there, and there might have been a smallish bag

836
00:48:55,400 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 34: of some sort. I kind of thought, oh, why are

837
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:05,960
Speaker 34: you so who disheveled? Why isn't anything organized? And I

838
00:49:05,960 --> 00:49:08,759
Speaker 34: said to him, what I come you down here like this?

839
00:49:09,000 --> 00:49:11,600
Speaker 34: Like what don't you wait sort of thing until tomorrow?

840
00:49:11,600 --> 00:49:16,440
Speaker 34: Because he said we always drove overnight because the kids

841
00:49:16,760 --> 00:49:21,719
Speaker 34: slept better. He brought in some stuff out of the

842
00:49:21,719 --> 00:49:24,879
Speaker 34: back of the car. At the boot he said three

843
00:49:25,120 --> 00:49:30,720
Speaker 34: significant things on the front veranda. She's got the kids,

844
00:49:30,880 --> 00:49:34,879
Speaker 34: she's got the car, and she's not having the house too.

845
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:38,200
Speaker 34: And they were the three things that John said on

846
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,399
Speaker 34: the front veranda before Andrew got home. If she's only

847
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:45,000
Speaker 34: going way for a couple of days, what has that

848
00:49:45,080 --> 00:49:46,520
Speaker 34: got to do with anything.

849
00:49:47,120 --> 00:49:49,719
Speaker 1: I've read in your evidence that you say to him,

850
00:49:50,239 --> 00:49:53,960
Speaker 1: why are you in such a hurry? And then he

851
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:54,920
Speaker 1: shows you something.

852
00:49:55,080 --> 00:49:57,760
Speaker 34: Yeah, he gets out of his wallet and he's got

853
00:49:57,840 --> 00:50:01,400
Speaker 34: like a little receipt that you get from the cashier,

854
00:50:02,440 --> 00:50:04,759
Speaker 34: and he got petrol eleven o six at.

855
00:50:04,640 --> 00:50:06,200
Speaker 1: A service station near Lennox.

856
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,960
Speaker 21: Yeah, yep, yep. And then he put it back in

857
00:50:09,960 --> 00:50:10,839
Speaker 21: his wallet.

858
00:50:11,719 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 1: What did he say when he showed that to you?

859
00:50:14,120 --> 00:50:20,560
Speaker 34: Just proving to me that he left eleven o six

860
00:50:21,000 --> 00:50:23,680
Speaker 34: and got petrol. And I kind of thought to himself,

861
00:50:24,440 --> 00:50:27,000
Speaker 34: why you showed me that. I don't care if you

862
00:50:27,080 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 34: got petrol, Like, because at that point on the front Verandah,

863
00:50:32,239 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 34: I suppose never put it into our heads that something

864
00:50:37,440 --> 00:50:42,080
Speaker 34: sinister may have happened. It was very confusing as to

865
00:50:42,120 --> 00:50:42,959
Speaker 34: why he was there.

866
00:50:43,560 --> 00:50:45,640
Speaker 21: And I just thought, why did you show me.

867
00:50:45,719 --> 00:50:49,839
Speaker 1: Eleven o six? You remembered the receipt for eleven oh

868
00:50:49,880 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 1: six pm. Ye, the night before yep. But doesn't really

869
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:54,880
Speaker 1: show what time he left, does it?

870
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,799
Speaker 34: Because he could have got fuel or he could have

871
00:50:58,840 --> 00:50:59,400
Speaker 34: done anything.

872
00:51:00,120 --> 00:51:02,080
Speaker 1: What time he got fuel. But he could have gone

873
00:51:02,120 --> 00:51:02,440
Speaker 1: back to.

874
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:04,360
Speaker 34: The house of the house that he could have gone anywhere,

875
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,799
Speaker 34: could have gone anywhere, kids could have been asleep in

876
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:10,560
Speaker 34: the house. He could have done lots of things in

877
00:51:10,600 --> 00:51:11,120
Speaker 34: that time.

878
00:51:12,000 --> 00:51:13,880
Speaker 1: Do you still find at baffling or do you have

879
00:51:13,920 --> 00:51:15,840
Speaker 1: some ideas about why he showed it to you.

880
00:51:18,560 --> 00:51:25,560
Speaker 34: I think it was his evidence to prove that he

881
00:51:25,640 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 34: had got petrol, to show that he had left and

882
00:51:31,520 --> 00:51:32,440
Speaker 34: gone to Sydney.

883
00:51:33,560 --> 00:51:34,720
Speaker 21: But I don't know why.

884
00:51:35,400 --> 00:51:37,840
Speaker 1: Had he told you that he had arrived in Sydney

885
00:51:37,880 --> 00:51:38,640
Speaker 1: that morning.

886
00:51:38,480 --> 00:51:42,839
Speaker 34: Help and then he would drive through the night and

887
00:51:42,880 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 34: see At that point in time, I assumed he comes

888
00:51:48,400 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 34: straight to us, like where the family.

889
00:51:53,719 --> 00:51:56,880
Speaker 1: On the Monday morning, a sixty year old woman called

890
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:00,319
Speaker 1: Joan Mason was visiting at her son Brad's house in

891
00:52:00,400 --> 00:52:04,480
Speaker 1: the Sydney suburb of caring Bar. Brad lived there with

892
00:52:04,600 --> 00:52:09,840
Speaker 1: his wife, Jennifer. These are Jones' words. It's not her voice.

893
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: It's from her police statement in nineteen ninety eight.

894
00:52:14,840 --> 00:52:16,840
Speaker 35: I remember on that day I heard a knock at

895
00:52:16,880 --> 00:52:20,320
Speaker 35: the front door. My daughter in law, Jenny, was out

896
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,440
Speaker 35: and I was not sure where Brad was. I answered

897
00:52:23,480 --> 00:52:25,720
Speaker 35: the door and I saw a man who introduced himself

898
00:52:25,760 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 35: as Winfield. I don't remember his first name, but I

899
00:52:29,640 --> 00:52:32,480
Speaker 35: recall he told me that he had been Jenny's first husband.

900
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 35: I saw that he had two young girls with him.

901
00:52:36,080 --> 00:52:39,520
Speaker 35: I remember both these young girls were dressed in pajamas.

902
00:52:39,960 --> 00:52:43,160
Speaker 35: I remember this man Winfield asked me could he leave

903
00:52:43,200 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 35: the two girls as he was in Sydney to do

904
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,040
Speaker 35: a big job. He said something about being in the

905
00:52:48,080 --> 00:52:50,520
Speaker 35: building game and he had to go and see someone

906
00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:53,280
Speaker 35: about a job. He said that he had been driving

907
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 35: all night. He said he needed to leave the children

908
00:52:55,960 --> 00:52:59,319
Speaker 35: with someone. I recalled telling him that he could leave

909
00:52:59,320 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 35: the kids there and I would tell Jenny when she

910
00:53:01,440 --> 00:53:04,319
Speaker 35: came home. He left the children with me and I

911
00:53:04,360 --> 00:53:08,240
Speaker 35: looked after them until Jenny arrived back home. I remember

912
00:53:08,239 --> 00:53:10,920
Speaker 35: this man Winfield arrived back at the house at Carrying

913
00:53:10,960 --> 00:53:14,520
Speaker 35: Bar later that afternoon. He went out in the backyard

914
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:18,000
Speaker 35: and they spoke for some time. After that, he took

915
00:53:18,000 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 35: the children and left the house.

916
00:53:20,840 --> 00:53:24,880
Speaker 1: It sounds highly unusual. John has gone to the home

917
00:53:25,000 --> 00:53:29,080
Speaker 1: of his first wife, Jenny, but she was out in

918
00:53:29,120 --> 00:53:32,720
Speaker 1: her absence, John has persuaded a woman he has never met,

919
00:53:33,080 --> 00:53:35,600
Speaker 1: the mother in law of Jenny, to look after his

920
00:53:35,760 --> 00:53:40,680
Speaker 1: children for the day. The timing is interesting too. Joan

921
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,319
Speaker 1: Mason recalled that John arrived at the house some time

922
00:53:44,480 --> 00:53:47,600
Speaker 1: in the morning, he left the house in his car

923
00:53:47,760 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: without his children. A short time later, he returned again

924
00:53:52,440 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 1: in the afternoon, collected the children and drove to the

925
00:53:55,960 --> 00:53:59,840
Speaker 1: home of Michelle and Andy Reid. But Michelle and Andy

926
00:53:59,840 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: didn't know about those movements until the detective Sergeant Glenn

927
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,440
Speaker 1: Taylor got to the bottom of it five years later.

928
00:54:07,640 --> 00:54:10,520
Speaker 34: That blew me away, blom me away.

929
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 1: But he didn't tell you that.

930
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:18,239
Speaker 34: No, these kids, they would never have met Jenny, let

931
00:54:18,280 --> 00:54:19,880
Speaker 34: alone Jenny's.

932
00:54:19,400 --> 00:54:20,000
Speaker 6: Mother in law.

933
00:54:20,880 --> 00:54:25,399
Speaker 34: He made out that he come to Sydney and he'd

934
00:54:25,440 --> 00:54:29,040
Speaker 34: come to us bombshell that was to us.

935
00:54:29,680 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 1: The natural thing to do would have been to go

936
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:34,920
Speaker 1: to Bromwin's brother and sister in law, of course, but

937
00:54:35,040 --> 00:54:37,480
Speaker 1: he went to his ex wife's home.

938
00:54:38,360 --> 00:54:41,400
Speaker 34: Her mother in law was down visiting. She had no

939
00:54:41,480 --> 00:54:43,400
Speaker 34: idea who this random bloke was.

940
00:54:43,719 --> 00:54:46,360
Speaker 1: Is it possible that he did that because he thought

941
00:54:46,400 --> 00:54:49,359
Speaker 1: you'd already taken sides Bromwin's side, and it was all

942
00:54:49,400 --> 00:54:50,960
Speaker 1: a bit sticky in the separation.

943
00:54:52,440 --> 00:54:55,319
Speaker 34: Who knows what goes on in John's head. If you're

944
00:54:55,360 --> 00:54:59,560
Speaker 34: going to bring some two little girls and a little

945
00:54:59,600 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 34: dog down to Sydney for two weeks, you wouldn't take them.

946
00:55:03,280 --> 00:55:04,720
Speaker 21: Anywhere and leave them.

947
00:55:04,600 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 34: With anyone except people who they know and trust, their.

948
00:55:11,480 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: Uncle and Nardi like.

949
00:55:14,120 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 34: And to find that out later, what was he doing?

950
00:55:18,280 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 21: Well? Why did he need to do that?

951
00:55:20,920 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 34: Why would you do that?

952
00:55:23,160 --> 00:55:26,920
Speaker 1: But before John went to his ex wife's house, he

953
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:30,240
Speaker 1: stopped in at a Sydney hair salon where his daughter

954
00:55:30,360 --> 00:55:35,400
Speaker 1: Jody worked. Jody remembers that her father arrived there about

955
00:55:35,440 --> 00:55:36,120
Speaker 1: mid morning.

956
00:55:37,040 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 11: I rushed out the front and hugged and kissed both

957
00:55:39,560 --> 00:55:42,200
Speaker 11: the girls. I asked Ad what was happening, and he

958
00:55:42,239 --> 00:55:44,399
Speaker 11: told me that Bronwin had had enough and she'd gone

959
00:55:44,440 --> 00:55:47,440
Speaker 11: away for a holiday for two weeks. He said that

960
00:55:47,480 --> 00:55:49,560
Speaker 11: she went to the bedroom and made a telephone call

961
00:55:49,640 --> 00:55:52,600
Speaker 11: and that she took a small amount of clothes. He

962
00:55:52,640 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 11: then told me that he heard a car pull up

963
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,400
Speaker 11: and leave, and that he was sitting on the lounge

964
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 11: and didn't get.

965
00:55:57,000 --> 00:55:59,840
Speaker 35: Up to see who'd picked her up. Dad appeared to

966
00:55:59,840 --> 00:56:00,680
Speaker 35: be happy.

967
00:56:00,400 --> 00:56:02,440
Speaker 11: Because he had the kids and he hadn't seen them

968
00:56:02,440 --> 00:56:05,920
Speaker 11: for so long. He is definite that one day she

969
00:56:05,960 --> 00:56:08,200
Speaker 11: will turn up on the front doorstep and attempt to

970
00:56:08,200 --> 00:56:11,720
Speaker 11: take Crystal and Lauren. He's positive that she's still alive

971
00:56:11,760 --> 00:56:14,120
Speaker 11: somewhere and will suddenly reappear.

972
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:18,520
Speaker 1: All these years later. We do not know exactly what

973
00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,839
Speaker 1: John was doing. Over a crucial period of about five hours,

974
00:56:23,520 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 1: he went to the marital home of his first wife, Jenny.

975
00:56:28,120 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 1: She had married a man called Brad Mason. As you've

976
00:56:32,080 --> 00:56:35,680
Speaker 1: already heard, John left the children. Let's say it was

977
00:56:35,760 --> 00:56:40,720
Speaker 1: around ten thirty am in nineteen ninety eight. The Ballona

978
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,480
Speaker 1: detective Sergeant Glenn Taylor found Jenny and he took a

979
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:50,440
Speaker 1: detailed statement from her. The statement discloses that John's first wife, Jenny,

980
00:56:50,600 --> 00:56:56,279
Speaker 1: and John's third wife Bromwyn became friendly acquaintances. These are

981
00:56:56,400 --> 00:56:58,400
Speaker 1: Jenny's words, it's not her voice.

982
00:57:00,000 --> 00:57:02,239
Speaker 36: I brom When after John started going out with her.

983
00:57:02,320 --> 00:57:04,960
Speaker 36: As my daughter Jodi was leaving with them, I then

984
00:57:05,000 --> 00:57:08,560
Speaker 36: became friendly with Bromwin. Bromwhin and I made a pack

985
00:57:08,680 --> 00:57:11,280
Speaker 36: that we wouldn't discuss personal things about John.

986
00:57:11,560 --> 00:57:13,839
Speaker 1: We didn't think it was appropriate to talk about it.

987
00:57:14,560 --> 00:57:17,480
Speaker 36: Bromwhen and John seemed quite happy, and by that time

988
00:57:17,560 --> 00:57:19,640
Speaker 36: I was married to my second husband.

989
00:57:19,920 --> 00:57:21,440
Speaker 6: I've got a photograph.

990
00:57:21,000 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 36: At home when me and my husband Brad visited Bromwin

991
00:57:23,720 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 36: and John at their new home at Lennox head. The

992
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 36: photograph's been marked on the back March nineteen ninety one.

993
00:57:31,160 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 36: I'd say that we only stayed at the house for

994
00:57:33,200 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 36: about half an hour. I remember having a joke with

995
00:57:36,160 --> 00:57:39,800
Speaker 36: Bromwin saying something like, so, this is the house that

996
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,200
Speaker 36: I could have had, Ain't you a lucky girl? Bromwin

997
00:57:43,320 --> 00:57:45,280
Speaker 36: just looked at me with a sad look and shook

998
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:49,080
Speaker 36: her head and said no. Then John and Brad walked

999
00:57:49,080 --> 00:57:51,320
Speaker 36: into the room, and that was the end of the conversation.

1000
00:57:52,560 --> 00:57:54,920
Speaker 36: I think Bromwin would have liked to talk about something

1001
00:57:54,920 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 36: that was troubling her, but she never had the opportunity

1002
00:57:57,800 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 36: to speak. The next thing I remember about Bromwin was

1003
00:58:01,960 --> 00:58:04,439
Speaker 36: I came home one day from shopping in nineteen ninety

1004
00:58:04,520 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 36: three and my mother in law, Brad's mother, said, you've

1005
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:11,640
Speaker 36: got two visitors out in the backyard. I looked out

1006
00:58:11,680 --> 00:58:14,280
Speaker 36: the back and I saw it was Crystal and Lauren

1007
00:58:14,640 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 36: Bromwin's children. Both of the children were dressed in pajamas.

1008
00:58:19,040 --> 00:58:22,080
Speaker 36: I said to my mother in law, Joan Mason, what

1009
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,680
Speaker 36: are they doing here? Joan told me that John Winfield

1010
00:58:25,680 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 36: had turned up about an hour earlier and asked if

1011
00:58:28,160 --> 00:58:31,200
Speaker 36: he could leave the kids at my house. I asked

1012
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,280
Speaker 36: Jane if he'd said how long he wanted me to

1013
00:58:33,320 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 36: look after the kids for, but she said he didn't say.

1014
00:58:37,000 --> 00:58:39,520
Speaker 36: There were no clothes for the children that John brought.

1015
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:42,960
Speaker 36: It was about an hour after that when John arrived.

1016
00:58:43,040 --> 00:58:46,960
Speaker 36: I said to him something like, what's going on? John said,

1017
00:58:47,200 --> 00:58:49,439
Speaker 36: I've got a big job on and nobody to look

1018
00:58:49,480 --> 00:58:52,400
Speaker 36: after the kids. Can you look after them for about

1019
00:58:52,440 --> 00:58:58,000
Speaker 36: two weeks? I'll pay you. I said, where's Bromwin. John said,

1020
00:58:58,440 --> 00:59:02,000
Speaker 36: she's gone off with a boyfriend. I said, I can't

1021
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:04,880
Speaker 36: look after them, You'll have to find someone else. I'm

1022
00:59:04,920 --> 00:59:08,640
Speaker 36: in the process of packing and moving at that stage.

1023
00:59:08,640 --> 00:59:10,880
Speaker 36: I was splitting up from my second husband and moving

1024
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:14,560
Speaker 36: to Queensland. John said, oh no, I didn't think that

1025
00:59:14,600 --> 00:59:17,080
Speaker 36: would happen to you. I'm sorry to hear the news.

1026
00:59:17,800 --> 00:59:19,760
Speaker 36: And then after that, John just took the kids and

1027
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 36: left the house. He didn't say what he intended to

1028
00:59:22,880 --> 00:59:23,680
Speaker 36: do with the kids.

1029
00:59:24,720 --> 00:59:28,000
Speaker 1: Jenny recalled that her ex husband John asked her if

1030
00:59:28,080 --> 00:59:31,360
Speaker 1: she had any spare clothes for the girls, but Jenny

1031
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:33,280
Speaker 1: couldn't remember whether she gave him any.

1032
00:59:34,160 --> 00:59:36,480
Speaker 36: I remember thinking at the time it was strange he

1033
00:59:36,520 --> 00:59:39,640
Speaker 36: hadn't brought any clothing for the children. It wasn't his

1034
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:44,120
Speaker 36: normal character. He usually liked to be organized. I found

1035
00:59:44,160 --> 00:59:47,000
Speaker 36: out later through Jody that Bromwin had gone missing from

1036
00:59:47,080 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 36: Lennox Head. I found out later that she'd gone missing

1037
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 36: the night before John had turned up at my house

1038
00:59:53,080 --> 00:59:56,720
Speaker 36: with the two children. I don't feel that Bromin would

1039
00:59:56,760 --> 01:00:00,840
Speaker 36: ever have left those children permanently. He was a very

1040
01:00:00,880 --> 01:00:05,360
Speaker 36: dedicated mum and loved her children very much. I think

1041
01:00:05,400 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 36: something might have happened on the night before John turned

1042
01:00:07,880 --> 01:00:11,280
Speaker 36: up with the kids at my house in nineteen ninety three.

1043
01:00:11,560 --> 01:00:13,760
Speaker 36: I think John's the type who could lose his cool.

1044
01:00:14,120 --> 01:00:16,680
Speaker 36: He was under a great deal of stress at that time.

1045
01:00:17,760 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 36: I feel Bromin may be dead and somehow met with

1046
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:21,280
Speaker 36: foul play.

1047
01:00:22,720 --> 01:00:27,520
Speaker 1: Jenny's full statement to police in nineteen ninety eight is poignant.

1048
01:00:28,120 --> 01:00:31,680
Speaker 1: It recalls some sad parts of her own life with John.

1049
01:00:32,800 --> 01:00:35,960
Speaker 1: In a later episode, you'll hear more of Jenny's evidence.

1050
01:00:36,680 --> 01:00:40,240
Speaker 1: She paints a sad picture of a deeply troubled marriage.

1051
01:00:42,040 --> 01:00:45,840
Speaker 1: And you came home about an hour later at five pm.

1052
01:00:46,080 --> 01:00:49,920
Speaker 8: Yes, seeing the old white falcon at the end of

1053
01:00:49,960 --> 01:00:54,000
Speaker 8: the street, I thought, wow, the kids and Ron might

1054
01:00:54,040 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 8: be a day.

1055
01:00:54,920 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 5: And then I saw John sitting on the front veranda

1056
01:00:56,880 --> 01:00:57,640
Speaker 5: talking to Michelle.

1057
01:00:58,760 --> 01:01:01,520
Speaker 17: Walk down to the front for Andrew and said what's

1058
01:01:01,560 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 17: going on? And he said, oh, Roman had a chance

1059
01:01:04,600 --> 01:01:04,959
Speaker 17: to go.

1060
01:01:04,880 --> 01:01:08,040
Speaker 1: Away and clear her head for a few days. So

1061
01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,000
Speaker 1: I brought the kids down to Sydney.

1062
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 8: I thought it was strange straight away.

1063
01:01:14,400 --> 01:01:19,280
Speaker 1: You've described yourself as just a naturally suspicious person. Romwin's

1064
01:01:19,320 --> 01:01:23,280
Speaker 1: told you if anything happens to me, look after Crystal please.

1065
01:01:24,360 --> 01:01:28,040
Speaker 1: Suddenly he's turned up in the vehicle she had been

1066
01:01:28,120 --> 01:01:33,520
Speaker 1: driving with the kids, and they've packed hastily. What were

1067
01:01:33,560 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 1: you thinking then about where Romwin was?

1068
01:01:41,520 --> 01:01:48,160
Speaker 34: Well, I suppose to give him the benefit of the doubt.

1069
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 34: I do recall thinking, well, she'd been out of the

1070
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 34: house on her own with the kids for about six weeks.

1071
01:01:57,840 --> 01:02:02,480
Speaker 34: I was thinking, that's twenty four with the kids, trying

1072
01:02:02,480 --> 01:02:08,200
Speaker 34: to work get a bit of money. Possibly she did

1073
01:02:09,000 --> 01:02:09,640
Speaker 34: need a break.

1074
01:02:10,320 --> 01:02:10,840
Speaker 35: Possibly.

1075
01:02:12,160 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 1: Michelle Reid says that on Monday afternoon she asked John, well, what.

1076
01:02:17,960 --> 01:02:18,880
Speaker 6: Have you been doing?

1077
01:02:19,560 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 21: Where have you been?

1078
01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:21,640
Speaker 34: He said, I had to go and get a green

1079
01:02:21,680 --> 01:02:23,880
Speaker 34: slip and a pink slip and register the car and

1080
01:02:23,880 --> 01:02:27,160
Speaker 34: do all that, which accounted for the time during the day,

1081
01:02:27,720 --> 01:02:29,840
Speaker 34: which is why he turned up here at four o'clock,

1082
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:31,440
Speaker 34: because he'd been doing.

1083
01:02:31,200 --> 01:02:36,000
Speaker 1: Things reregistering the family car that he had driven from

1084
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:39,520
Speaker 1: Lennox Head the night before with two girls and a puppy.

1085
01:02:40,640 --> 01:02:44,080
Speaker 1: Back in Lenox. The neighbors, Murray and Debbie, were wondering

1086
01:02:44,160 --> 01:02:47,600
Speaker 1: what was going on. At what point do you believe

1087
01:02:48,200 --> 01:02:50,560
Speaker 1: you became suspicious?

1088
01:02:51,600 --> 01:02:54,880
Speaker 2: I said something really weird. I said, Larrens cars missinging.

1089
01:02:55,280 --> 01:02:57,040
Speaker 2: You know, where would she be this summer? The day

1090
01:02:57,680 --> 01:02:59,280
Speaker 2: she would park there all the time. They wouldn't park

1091
01:02:59,280 --> 01:03:01,200
Speaker 2: in the garage, and I just thought it was odd

1092
01:03:01,240 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 2: that the car wasn't there.

1093
01:03:03,400 --> 01:03:06,680
Speaker 3: Dead come and saw me six o'clock on Monday morning.

1094
01:03:07,560 --> 01:03:10,560
Speaker 3: It said the car has gone next door. And then

1095
01:03:10,560 --> 01:03:13,240
Speaker 3: I said to Dead, yeah, I heard the cargo last night.

1096
01:03:13,640 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 3: Did you see it or yeah?

1097
01:03:15,320 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 7: I saw it?

1098
01:03:16,640 --> 01:03:20,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, And I thought, oh, this is sus. So I

1099
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:23,800
Speaker 3: waited until about eight o'clock. There was no kids, no nothing,

1100
01:03:25,000 --> 01:03:27,920
Speaker 3: and no Roman, no car. I thought, this is too.

1101
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:32,160
Speaker 1: Sus And when you say sas you mean it was

1102
01:03:32,200 --> 01:03:34,160
Speaker 1: really suspicious. It was strange.

1103
01:03:34,520 --> 01:03:35,680
Speaker 7: That was a bit suspicious.

1104
01:03:36,040 --> 01:03:37,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, as early as Monday.

1105
01:03:37,520 --> 01:03:38,479
Speaker 7: As as Monday yes.

1106
01:03:38,840 --> 01:03:42,000
Speaker 3: Well, when I saw the car go in the nighttime

1107
01:03:42,360 --> 01:03:46,200
Speaker 3: eleven or twenty eleven at night, I thought that was

1108
01:03:46,240 --> 01:03:49,280
Speaker 3: sus So then I past seven.

1109
01:03:49,080 --> 01:03:51,520
Speaker 7: Eight o'clock, this is in the morning. Yes, on the

1110
01:03:51,560 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 7: Monday morning, Monday morning, I walked up.

1111
01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,920
Speaker 37: To the neighbor on top of John's place, Lloyd and

1112
01:03:57,000 --> 01:04:02,720
Speaker 37: Chris Harday, Yeah, And I went to Lloyd and locked

1113
01:04:02,800 --> 01:04:05,120
Speaker 37: his door and said, book, I think John's come back

1114
01:04:05,200 --> 01:04:06,560
Speaker 37: last night and done something to Bromwin.

1115
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:10,480
Speaker 7: Do you mind coming down to the house and having

1116
01:04:10,520 --> 01:04:12,160
Speaker 7: them look at the house with me? But he didn't

1117
01:04:12,200 --> 01:04:14,240
Speaker 7: break in there, and did you no? Okay?

1118
01:04:14,360 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 3: Me and Lloyd just walked around the house and then

1119
01:04:19,440 --> 01:04:22,080
Speaker 3: we said, oh, yes, it's us, and then Lloyd went

1120
01:04:22,120 --> 01:04:23,320
Speaker 3: in and I came back here.

1121
01:04:23,480 --> 01:04:26,880
Speaker 2: When I came home on the Monday afternoon, I said

1122
01:04:26,880 --> 01:04:29,720
Speaker 2: to my children, was Lauren and Crystal at the school today?

1123
01:04:30,440 --> 01:04:31,640
Speaker 7: And they said no, Monday weren't.

1124
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: And then on the Tuesday I went to work and

1125
01:04:35,400 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: I do recall ringing the unit because she had a

1126
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:40,960
Speaker 2: phone down there, and I think I might have rung

1127
01:04:41,040 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 2: the house to see if I could find.

1128
01:04:43,680 --> 01:04:49,160
Speaker 1: It deb telephone a mutual friend, probably Denise Barnard.

1129
01:04:49,920 --> 01:04:52,280
Speaker 2: I can't remember exactly who it was, but I rang

1130
01:04:52,400 --> 01:04:55,320
Speaker 2: them instead of you. Anyone's seen everyone know where Bromin

1131
01:04:55,440 --> 01:04:55,680
Speaker 2: might be.

1132
01:04:56,240 --> 01:05:00,479
Speaker 8: No, no, no, Yet by about seven thirty at night,

1133
01:05:00,600 --> 01:05:04,880
Speaker 8: I'd forced John to ring Murray and Devi next door

1134
01:05:05,200 --> 01:05:07,360
Speaker 8: to break into the house to.

1135
01:05:07,160 --> 01:05:08,480
Speaker 1: Look into the house to see.

1136
01:05:08,320 --> 01:05:10,360
Speaker 5: What was going on and whether Brahman was there.

1137
01:05:11,680 --> 01:05:14,480
Speaker 1: Did you suspect foul play that night?

1138
01:05:15,640 --> 01:05:20,000
Speaker 38: That came later because further into that conversation between five

1139
01:05:20,040 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 38: o'clock and seven o'clock, when we sort of forced him

1140
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,400
Speaker 38: to get someone to break into the house to check

1141
01:05:24,440 --> 01:05:27,240
Speaker 38: it out, he was saying, now I should be back

1142
01:05:27,280 --> 01:05:29,760
Speaker 38: by Wednesday, Chris, she's got a shift at the takeaway shop.

1143
01:05:31,120 --> 01:05:34,280
Speaker 2: On the Tuesday, I came home after work. John had

1144
01:05:34,360 --> 01:05:35,720
Speaker 2: rung Murray, so.

1145
01:05:35,680 --> 01:05:36,360
Speaker 7: I've got the court.

1146
01:05:37,040 --> 01:05:39,880
Speaker 3: He said, would you mind going up the house? Would

1147
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:41,560
Speaker 3: you mind going up the house and breaking in for me?

1148
01:05:41,760 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 3: This was a class panel next to the back door.

1149
01:05:43,960 --> 01:05:45,760
Speaker 3: He said, put your handy open the door and get in.

1150
01:05:46,400 --> 01:05:48,800
Speaker 3: And I said that's fair enough, and I'll do that.

1151
01:05:49,640 --> 01:05:51,080
Speaker 3: He said, oh yeah, because I've been trying to ring

1152
01:05:51,080 --> 01:05:52,520
Speaker 3: Braman and now I want you to have to look

1153
01:05:52,520 --> 01:05:55,160
Speaker 3: to see the probins there. Because I've been ringing I'm

1154
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 3: getting no answer. John said to me, I'll ring you

1155
01:05:58,120 --> 01:06:01,080
Speaker 3: back in twenty minutes, so I'm suss again.

1156
01:06:02,560 --> 01:06:07,040
Speaker 1: Murray went back to see the retired neighbor, Lloyd Hargrave.

1157
01:06:07,400 --> 01:06:09,240
Speaker 3: And I said, mate, I said, he's rung me up.

1158
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:11,800
Speaker 3: He wants to be a break into the house. I'm

1159
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:13,320
Speaker 3: not too sure why he wants be a break into

1160
01:06:13,360 --> 01:06:15,919
Speaker 3: the house. He's only read me back. We broke into

1161
01:06:15,960 --> 01:06:18,760
Speaker 3: the house and we walked around the house and had

1162
01:06:18,760 --> 01:06:22,840
Speaker 3: a look, and then John rang back in twenty minutes

1163
01:06:23,920 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 3: and he said it was probleman in the house. I said, no,

1164
01:06:26,400 --> 01:06:28,280
Speaker 3: she wasn't, John, No, she's not there, and no one said.

1165
01:06:28,960 --> 01:06:30,440
Speaker 3: He said, well, can you go up and put the

1166
01:06:30,440 --> 01:06:34,680
Speaker 3: phone back on the hook please? So I went back

1167
01:06:34,760 --> 01:06:36,320
Speaker 3: up there and put the phone back on the hook,

1168
01:06:37,880 --> 01:06:39,840
Speaker 3: and they'd come up with me after that.

1169
01:06:39,960 --> 01:06:40,160
Speaker 22: Yeah.

1170
01:06:40,160 --> 01:06:42,680
Speaker 2: When I got home from work, Murray told me what

1171
01:06:42,720 --> 01:06:45,120
Speaker 2: had happened, and I've gone, well, I want to go

1172
01:06:45,240 --> 01:06:45,919
Speaker 2: up and have a look.

1173
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:47,520
Speaker 7: Something not right here.

1174
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:51,920
Speaker 2: My normal brain's thinking, no, he wouldn't do anything to her,

1175
01:06:51,960 --> 01:06:54,360
Speaker 2: But my other half of my brain's going, yes, he would.

1176
01:06:54,480 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 6: You know.

1177
01:06:54,800 --> 01:06:56,600
Speaker 2: That's the sort of thing I was a bit conflicted with,

1178
01:06:56,640 --> 01:06:58,240
Speaker 2: and I just wanted to go and have a look

1179
01:06:58,760 --> 01:06:59,160
Speaker 2: and just.

1180
01:06:59,120 --> 01:07:00,800
Speaker 1: See all I could see.

1181
01:07:01,400 --> 01:07:04,400
Speaker 2: The house was disheveled because she was still moving back in,

1182
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:08,120
Speaker 2: so she had boxes and everything still unpacking boxes. She'd

1183
01:07:08,120 --> 01:07:10,440
Speaker 2: had dinner on a Sunday night. There was plates in

1184
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:13,480
Speaker 2: the sink with scraps on them. I looked in the

1185
01:07:13,560 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: washing machine. There was wet washing in the washing machine,

1186
01:07:15,960 --> 01:07:18,400
Speaker 2: like clothes. I hung the washing out.

1187
01:07:18,640 --> 01:07:21,200
Speaker 1: Do you recall what was in the washing machine? What

1188
01:07:21,320 --> 01:07:21,800
Speaker 1: you hung out?

1189
01:07:21,960 --> 01:07:22,120
Speaker 7: Yeah?

1190
01:07:22,200 --> 01:07:22,439
Speaker 5: Kids?

1191
01:07:22,440 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 7: All the kids stuff?

1192
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:24,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, well kids closed.

1193
01:07:25,280 --> 01:07:27,400
Speaker 2: So then we went into the bedroom and it was

1194
01:07:27,440 --> 01:07:30,040
Speaker 2: at the front of the house, and I'm looking to

1195
01:07:30,080 --> 01:07:33,120
Speaker 2: see what she talk. She didn't take twelve trees, she

1196
01:07:33,120 --> 01:07:37,040
Speaker 2: didn't take a makeup. I'm looking around. She hasn't taken

1197
01:07:37,080 --> 01:07:38,480
Speaker 2: any of this. Why would she do on a holiday

1198
01:07:38,520 --> 01:07:40,840
Speaker 2: with that all this stuff? I'm thinking, this is weird.

1199
01:07:41,560 --> 01:07:44,760
Speaker 2: The bed was unmade, she took nothing. Appadly, the only

1200
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:48,240
Speaker 2: thing that I could see that was missing was her handbag.

1201
01:07:49,200 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 7: I couldn't find a handbag.

1202
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,120
Speaker 39: I'm a woman, and if I'm going on a maybe

1203
01:07:54,160 --> 01:07:57,560
Speaker 39: even if it was an impromptu holiday, I would still

1204
01:07:57,600 --> 01:08:01,240
Speaker 39: pack some essential items, but there was nothing.

1205
01:08:01,320 --> 01:08:04,000
Speaker 2: It was all still there, her makeup was there, everything.

1206
01:08:04,800 --> 01:08:06,800
Speaker 2: I thought, I'm not buying.

1207
01:08:06,520 --> 01:08:09,120
Speaker 1: This is her daughter?

1208
01:08:09,320 --> 01:08:14,120
Speaker 21: Mail again and I answered the phone and he asked

1209
01:08:14,720 --> 01:08:17,479
Speaker 21: to speak with Dad. I said, I'll put him on

1210
01:08:18,000 --> 01:08:20,360
Speaker 21: And then night's when I went to the house with

1211
01:08:20,520 --> 01:08:24,360
Speaker 21: Lloyd and my dad through the laundry. I remember thinking, Oh,

1212
01:08:24,360 --> 01:08:25,679
Speaker 21: I'm coming up to see this house.

1213
01:08:25,920 --> 01:08:27,000
Speaker 1: Why, I don't know.

1214
01:08:27,040 --> 01:08:29,719
Speaker 21: I think it was strange.

1215
01:08:30,520 --> 01:08:33,200
Speaker 1: Was it strange because you were so rarely in the house.

1216
01:08:33,840 --> 01:08:35,360
Speaker 21: No, I think it was strange because I had a

1217
01:08:35,360 --> 01:08:38,320
Speaker 21: feeling why I be going in there? Why Why did

1218
01:08:38,360 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 21: he come up and then leave and then us going

1219
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,320
Speaker 21: to the house to see whether she's been back. What

1220
01:08:43,439 --> 01:08:46,639
Speaker 21: I find is strange about the whole thing is jand

1221
01:08:46,680 --> 01:08:50,040
Speaker 21: to come all the way up here, to have the

1222
01:08:50,200 --> 01:08:56,680
Speaker 21: argument with Brown and then to leave that same night

1223
01:08:57,600 --> 01:09:01,320
Speaker 21: in a hurry. Why don't you say next morning then

1224
01:09:01,400 --> 01:09:03,720
Speaker 21: go back to Sydney. Why do we leave in such

1225
01:09:03,720 --> 01:09:04,160
Speaker 21: a hurry?

1226
01:09:05,439 --> 01:09:08,679
Speaker 1: And is that because you suspect flight urgent panic?

1227
01:09:10,200 --> 01:09:14,120
Speaker 21: Yeah? I noticed the house, what it looked like, the

1228
01:09:14,160 --> 01:09:15,000
Speaker 21: state that was left in.

1229
01:09:15,960 --> 01:09:17,160
Speaker 1: What do you remember about that?

1230
01:09:17,200 --> 01:09:17,800
Speaker 6: There was the.

1231
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,120
Speaker 21: Washing in the laundry, the dishes. The girl's beds were stripped.

1232
01:09:22,080 --> 01:09:23,599
Speaker 1: The girl's beds were stripped, There.

1233
01:09:23,439 --> 01:09:26,519
Speaker 21: Was no sheets in the bed they were gone.

1234
01:09:27,840 --> 01:09:31,880
Speaker 1: Mel's disclosure about the sheets being stripped from the children's

1235
01:09:31,920 --> 01:09:35,519
Speaker 1: beds was a surprise to me. I did not recall

1236
01:09:35,640 --> 01:09:39,000
Speaker 1: that anyone else had raised it before, and I couldn't

1237
01:09:39,040 --> 01:09:42,200
Speaker 1: remember reading it in any of the hundreds of pages

1238
01:09:42,240 --> 01:09:46,720
Speaker 1: of evidence and witness statements and other documents. Perhaps the

1239
01:09:46,760 --> 01:09:49,719
Speaker 1: reason Murray and deb did not raise it with police

1240
01:09:49,840 --> 01:09:52,799
Speaker 1: was because they had not looked at the children's beds.

1241
01:09:53,920 --> 01:09:55,920
Speaker 21: I mean, I had been in the house and it

1242
01:09:55,960 --> 01:09:59,680
Speaker 21: was very neat, like oct needs. So to leave the

1243
01:09:59,720 --> 01:10:02,320
Speaker 21: house in the state that was that was what was

1244
01:10:02,320 --> 01:10:04,080
Speaker 21: so strange about the whole thing.

1245
01:10:04,600 --> 01:10:09,080
Speaker 1: And is it your view that John, under normal circumstances

1246
01:10:09,120 --> 01:10:11,000
Speaker 1: couldn't have walked out of his house if it was

1247
01:10:11,040 --> 01:10:11,559
Speaker 1: in that state.

1248
01:10:11,640 --> 01:10:16,599
Speaker 21: No way, he wouldn't have. No, no, not the way

1249
01:10:16,640 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 21: he was as a person.

1250
01:10:19,240 --> 01:10:22,559
Speaker 1: Dear Van Murray walked back to their house, shaking their

1251
01:10:22,600 --> 01:10:25,840
Speaker 1: heads at the turn of events. They spoke on the

1252
01:10:25,880 --> 01:10:30,160
Speaker 1: telephone soon afterwards to Bromman's brother Andy, who had called

1253
01:10:30,160 --> 01:10:30,839
Speaker 1: from Sydney.

1254
01:10:31,960 --> 01:10:35,120
Speaker 2: That's when he said John's down here in Sydney with

1255
01:10:35,240 --> 01:10:37,680
Speaker 2: the girls. And he tells me Bromin's gone on some

1256
01:10:37,800 --> 01:10:39,800
Speaker 2: holiday And I said, what when did he?

1257
01:10:40,280 --> 01:10:41,599
Speaker 7: How did the girls get to Sydney.

1258
01:10:42,000 --> 01:10:43,880
Speaker 2: That was the first we knew that they were with

1259
01:10:43,960 --> 01:10:45,559
Speaker 2: him in Sydney.

1260
01:10:45,760 --> 01:10:47,479
Speaker 1: Did Andrew sound incredulous to you?

1261
01:10:47,840 --> 01:10:48,040
Speaker 15: Yeah?

1262
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:51,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was concerned for sure, and so was I.

1263
01:10:51,680 --> 01:10:55,400
Speaker 2: That John's starting to hyperventilated, be thinking this couldn't happen.

1264
01:10:55,479 --> 01:10:57,800
Speaker 2: This is not happening, you know that sort of disbelieved

1265
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:00,840
Speaker 2: that this is going on, And in my quiet mind

1266
01:11:00,880 --> 01:11:02,240
Speaker 2: I'm thinking he's not.

1267
01:11:03,640 --> 01:11:05,200
Speaker 7: Well, no, he hasn't, No, surely not.

1268
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:23,200
Speaker 1: Bronwyn is written and investigated by me Headley Thomas as

1269
01:11:23,240 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 1: a podcast production for The Australian. If anyone has information

1270
01:11:28,240 --> 01:11:32,040
Speaker 1: which may help solve this cold case, please contact me

1271
01:11:32,200 --> 01:11:38,519
Speaker 1: confidentially by emailing Bronwyn at the Australian dot com dot au.

1272
01:11:39,240 --> 01:11:42,160
Speaker 1: You can read more about this case and see a

1273
01:11:42,280 --> 01:11:46,679
Speaker 1: range of photographs and other artwork at the website Bronwyn

1274
01:11:46,800 --> 01:11:52,960
Speaker 1: podcast dot com. Our subscribers and registered users here episodes first.

1275
01:11:53,560 --> 01:11:58,120
Speaker 1: The production and editorial team for Bromwin includes Claire Harvey,

1276
01:11:58,240 --> 01:12:04,160
Speaker 1: Kristin Amiot, Josh Bridget, Ryan Bianca far Marcus, Katie Burns,

1277
01:12:04,479 --> 01:12:08,880
Speaker 1: Liam Mendez, Sean Callen, and Matthew Condon and David Murray.

1278
01:12:09,680 --> 01:12:13,599
Speaker 1: Audio production for this podcast series is by Wasabi Audio

1279
01:12:13,880 --> 01:12:18,200
Speaker 1: and original theme music by Slade Gibson. We have been

1280
01:12:18,240 --> 01:12:22,559
Speaker 1: assisted by Madison Walsh, a relation of Bromwin Winfield. We

1281
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,519
Speaker 1: can only do this kind of journalism with the support

1282
01:12:25,560 --> 01:12:29,559
Speaker 1: of our subscribers and our major sponsors like Harvey Norman.

1283
01:12:30,360 --> 01:12:34,519
Speaker 1: For all of our exclusive stories, videos, maps, timelines and

1284
01:12:34,680 --> 01:12:39,160
Speaker 1: documents about this podcast and other podcasts, including The Teacher's Pet,

1285
01:12:39,439 --> 01:12:44,000
Speaker 1: The Teachers Trial, The Teacher's Accuser, Shandy's Story, Shandy's Legacy,

1286
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:48,040
Speaker 1: and The Night Driver, go to the Australian dot Com

1287
01:12:48,080 --> 01:12:53,559
Speaker 1: dot au and the subscribe