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Speaker 1: Doing void. Welcome to the mental mate.

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Speaker 2: Thanks mate.

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Speaker 1: It's probably not a great occasion for you at the moment.

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Speaker 1: It's Christmas time and your business. You're the founder of

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Speaker 1: Living timber Coo. It's probably reached its nemesis. But we'll

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Speaker 1: talk about that in a second, the bad news, because

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Speaker 1: you know, we've got to keep rolling on. I guess

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Speaker 1: at the end of the day, and you've got to

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Speaker 1: make big business decisions, big boy decisions. But explain to

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Speaker 1: me what Living timber Coo was doing or is doing,

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Speaker 1: and what was the genesis of the idea, and you

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Speaker 1: know what was the vision?

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Speaker 2: So pretty much I started Living timber in mum and

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Speaker 2: Dad's garage. I had the vision of creating custom pieces

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Speaker 2: of furniture for people out of recycled and reclaimed the salvage. Hardwoods,

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Speaker 2: austray and hardwoods.

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Speaker 1: Just stop you there? Why why are hardwoods? Excuse me?

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Speaker 1: Can I just stop there? Why hardwoods? Do you have

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Speaker 1: a love of Australian hardwoods or as a some and

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Speaker 1: what is it as a tactile with nature of the colors?

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Speaker 1: What are we talking about here?

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Speaker 2: The reason I went with hardwoods is because everything that's

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Speaker 2: sort of imported and everything that's sort of not custom made.

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Speaker 2: It is all all just softwoods or pine, or if

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Speaker 2: it's from overseas, it's tea and stuff like that. Whereas

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Speaker 2: hardwoods you've got such a broad range of species that

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Speaker 2: you can work with, which are incredible, sort of amazing

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Speaker 2: grains and patterns and colors.

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Speaker 1: Can you help me a little bit here. Obviously I'm

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Speaker 1: no expert on this area, but I love wood. I

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Speaker 1: just love it. I love timber. When you say hardwood,

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Speaker 1: prepared to say soft wood, which is what the sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff you're getting? You know that that's the sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff that will be in the walls, which would

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Speaker 1: be putting jiprocket to or sometimes in the windows. Some

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Speaker 1: of the Western read seedars sort of a softer sort

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Speaker 1: of timber. Yeah. What what makes a hardwood different to softwood?

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Speaker 1: I mean? And what the difference you're in Australian hardwood

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Speaker 1: and high wood from anywhere else in the world.

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Speaker 2: So there's there's there's a big difference in hardwoods. So

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Speaker 2: you can still have hardwoods that are soft that you

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Speaker 2: can dent with your fingernails and stuff like that as well.

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Speaker 1: So what makes it hardwood? What does it qualified? Grain?

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Speaker 2: So you've got. If you look at timbers like a

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Speaker 2: whole heap of straws that are packed together, they sort

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Speaker 2: of you've got. The tighter those straws are packed, the

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Speaker 2: more denser that it's going to be. So if you've

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Speaker 2: got looser sort of open grain, which is a lot

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Speaker 2: of softer woods or softer hardwoods, they've got like a looser,

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Speaker 2: open open grain, they're a little bit more susceptible to damage,

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Speaker 2: and overall longevity is just not there, whereas a lot

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Speaker 2: of our Aussie hardwoods that do have that really dense,

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Speaker 2: packed in tight sort of straw like sort of stuff.

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Speaker 2: You've got, like your items of furniture can last for generations.

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Speaker 1: Then give you give me an example of what a

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Speaker 1: hardwood like. What's just howwood sound like them? It? What's

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Speaker 1: the name of the one?

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Speaker 2: So you've got this spotted gum that's probably one of

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Speaker 2: the most popular ones.

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Speaker 1: Like it come from a gum tree?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so spotted gum is one of the most

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Speaker 2: popular ones. And then black butt, which is another eucalypse.

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Speaker 2: They're the two main species that we were working with,

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Speaker 2: and they're the two main species that tend to last

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Speaker 2: forever sort of thing. So when you're making furniture out

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Speaker 2: of this stuff, it's it's something that you can probably

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Speaker 2: pass down to your grandchildren if you want to keep

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Speaker 2: it for that sort of real longevity. Yeah, long, long,

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Speaker 2: And what's it like to work with? It's not great

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Speaker 2: to work with it. It is a little bit harder

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Speaker 2: to work.

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Speaker 1: With because you can't put an island because it's harder anling. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So it's sort of one of those things where

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Speaker 2: like it dulls the blades really quickly. Like we got

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Speaker 2: blades when we were operating, we'd have our blades sharpened

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Speaker 2: it weekly, so every Thursday they'd come in take our

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Speaker 2: old blades, give us fresh ones, and just constantly replenish

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Speaker 2: them because otherwise you're trying to like it's it's ridiculous

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Speaker 2: to try and run hardwood through a block old blade.

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Speaker 1: Do we have a hardwood forest? I mean, do we

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Speaker 1: have I mean people growing this stuff like as in

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Speaker 1: terms of forestry.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and no, like there is plantation stuff like for instance,

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Speaker 2: Tasmanian oak that's another type of hardwood. It's a softer.

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Speaker 1: Species of it's like quite a pale color too.

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Speaker 2: It is really pale, which is what a lot of

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Speaker 2: people seem to love at the moment. Yeah, that's right. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: it's everywhere, Like a lot of the times, you see

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Speaker 2: it in architravees and stuff like that as well. There's

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Speaker 2: plantation for us of that, but there is other sort

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Speaker 2: of salvage sort of logs that we tended to use.

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Speaker 2: We worked with a lot of meals across Australia and

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Speaker 2: we'd work with either nuisance trees or trees that had

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Speaker 2: fallen over homes or trees that have been taken from

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Speaker 2: there's new development areas that we're going in. We'd try

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Speaker 2: and salvage those trees without them getting mulched, and that

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Speaker 2: day were the logs that we would try to sort

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Speaker 2: of salvage.

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Speaker 1: And what about things like old bridges getting pulled down?

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Speaker 2: Did you do Yeah, we actually used to use a

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Speaker 2: lot of that sort of stuff. Towards the end, we

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Speaker 2: didn't because we sort of scaled a little bit quicker

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Speaker 2: than what I thought we would have and it was

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Speaker 2: a little bit harder to source that much timber for

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Speaker 2: what we were doing. So then it went to we

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Speaker 2: were working with FC certified companies that were contracted so

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Speaker 2: they had a small section of forestry that they could

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Speaker 2: work with, and then we were able to source those

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Speaker 2: timbers that way as well.

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Speaker 1: I've often wondered about hardwood, Australian ardwoods so compared to hardwoods,

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Speaker 1: say from Malaysia, because I built a house, quite a

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Speaker 1: big house, and it was all timber, timber externally and

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Speaker 1: tim ceilings, timber floors, and the builder that I used

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Speaker 1: got me a timber called Merbau. Yeah, never heard of it.

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Speaker 1: I'd never heard it before, mr Bau. I think it

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Speaker 1: is hardwood, all right, Yeah, but I think you told

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Speaker 1: me came from Malaysia or somewhere.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's correct. Yeah, so it's not an Aussie hardwood,

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Speaker 2: but it's big here in Australia.

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Speaker 1: I was still important.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we it's everywhere. Most decks that you see

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Speaker 2: will be mrber.

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Speaker 1: It's a dark color.

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Speaker 2: It is like a darker reddish.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it is a nice timber. It looks beautiful,

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Speaker 2: it's great. There's a lot of Australian species that look

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Speaker 2: very similar, but unfortunately they're not fire rated. So merbough

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Speaker 2: is fire rated for our standards here.

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Speaker 1: What does that mean?

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Speaker 2: So if you're close to like certain bush land, like yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 2: then they've got specific fire rating, so you'd have to

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Speaker 2: use something like merbow. You wouldn't be able to use

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Speaker 2: something like spotted gum. The oil contents a little bit

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Speaker 2: too high, right, so then if there was a fire

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Speaker 2: to break out, then there's a chance at that.

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Speaker 1: All that's interesting, says oil content in the Australian natives,

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Speaker 1: because you know there are eucalypse aren't they. That's right,

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Speaker 1: and we're to about eucalyptic oil, yeps oil, and then

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Speaker 1: that that's quite burnable. Because what's interesting about the murbow

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Speaker 1: funny finishes say about the oil because once year we

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Speaker 1: have to go and oil it. Oh you do, yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: because once year we have to go and you know

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Speaker 1: it tastes my guys weeks oh yeah, and they put

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Speaker 1: on the sickens the oil. It sickens or some some

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Speaker 1: some oil that sickens brands makes. But if you don't

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Speaker 1: do it, it starts to it looks like it gets bleached.

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Speaker 2: It'll go gray, yeah, gray look.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. If you leave it too long, that weather gray

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Speaker 2: look will just stay forever. Then then you have to

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Speaker 2: strip it back and then oil again.

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Speaker 1: Which is that that in itself is pain in the neck. So,

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Speaker 1: and in relation to Australian hardwoods, are they more resistant

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Speaker 1: to Australian bugs like you don't know, white ants or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yes, and no. Like to be honest, once, once the

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Speaker 2: tree is sort of dead and the timbers are dried out,

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Speaker 2: the bugs love it, so it makes it even worse.

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Speaker 2: Something like merbough is not as susceptible because it's a

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Speaker 2: different sort of oil within that species of tree, so

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Speaker 2: then the bugs are less likely to eat into it,

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Speaker 2: whereas the bugs here are more likely to eat into

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Speaker 2: dry Aussie natives because they love the taste of it.

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Speaker 1: And where did you get like were you where did

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Speaker 1: you get this love and passionately? Just from the way

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Speaker 1: you're talking about you love timber? Yeah, and it sounds

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Speaker 1: like you really love Australian timber. And it sounds like

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Speaker 1: to me, on top of that, you really love let's

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Speaker 1: call it recycled timber, reuse timber, like they're sort of

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Speaker 1: three different categories of what you're doing. Where did this

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Speaker 1: sort of passion come from?

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Speaker 2: To be honest, I don't, I don't really know, Like

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Speaker 2: I've always liked working with timber.

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Speaker 1: Well, you're a kid who played around with timbers a

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Speaker 1: little bit.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, like my pop he was a chippy, so he

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Speaker 2: built houses and stuff. My dad wasn't. My dad went

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Speaker 2: into handyman work. But I think maybe I got my

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Speaker 2: love for it through Pop. But I'm a zoologist, that's

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Speaker 2: my that's my background.

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Speaker 1: So I as in marine as in biology. Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so I worked with reptiles, that was my So

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Speaker 2: I worked here at Sydney at the zoo here in Sydney,

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Speaker 2: at Sydney Wildlife World, and I did that for a

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Speaker 2: number of years and then I sort of got a

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Speaker 2: little bit over that and was like, I really like

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Speaker 2: working with timber. And I started working with a fellow

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Speaker 2: that worked solely with recycled fence palings, and I was like,

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Speaker 2: this is really fun. I can probably do this on

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Speaker 2: my own. And then all of a sudden, just I

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Speaker 2: just wanted to learn as much as I could about

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Speaker 2: tim species and try and figure out everything. So I

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Speaker 2: worked with him for about two years and then I

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Speaker 2: just went, this is amazing. I'm going to try and

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Speaker 2: just go out on my own and see how I

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Speaker 2: go with it.

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Speaker 1: Because well, making furnitures slightly different because you know, you've

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Speaker 1: got to learn how to use CAD design or some

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Speaker 1: sort of design. Yeah, a CAD being computer assistant design.

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Speaker 1: Did you how did you teach yourself how to do this?

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Speaker 1: Because you've got to draw it up. You've got to

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Speaker 1: draw the plan. It's you've not gott to draw up.

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Speaker 1: He could draw up my hand, but that's a punish.

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Speaker 1: You have to draw it up and then you have

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Speaker 1: to get shop drawings so that you're can to sort

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Speaker 1: of get your team to build it. And that all

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Speaker 1: requires effe. That's a skill base. That's that's not a

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Speaker 1: passion and love thing. That's a skill.

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Speaker 2: That's something you have to learn.

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Speaker 1: You have to learn. How do you teach yourself how

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Speaker 1: to draw this, how to do this stuff like build

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Speaker 1: shop drawings.

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Speaker 2: Well, I actually in school before going in zoology and

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Speaker 2: starting to learn about that, I actually was wanting to

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Speaker 2: be an architect, so I started to learn about that,

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Speaker 2: so that's sort of I had a little bit of

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Speaker 2: background there where I'd learned in school to do a

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Speaker 2: lot of card drawings and stuff. So I had a

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Speaker 2: little bit of background but not enough. And then I

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Speaker 2: virtually how to teach myself in the first couple of

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Speaker 2: years how.

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Speaker 1: To use the software and how to use the hardware

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Speaker 1: as well. So you taught yourself or your upskilled yourself

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Speaker 1: into doing that. Obviously you got the underlying fundamental passion

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Speaker 1: and love of timber. How did you This is probably

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Speaker 1: a hard one to answer. It's a hard question you'd

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Speaker 1: ask because I don't know the answer to it, or

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Speaker 1: I don't have a sense of it. How did you

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Speaker 1: teach yourself to become You got the skills, but how

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Speaker 1: did you teach yourself to become artistic enough and creative

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Speaker 1: enough to be able to create furniture? Because you know

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Speaker 1: it's creative, It's right, it is. We're not talking about

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Speaker 1: You're not talking about you know, the standard table. You're

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Speaker 1: talking about pieces that people want to buy because they

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Speaker 1: think are beautiful, that's right, or they want to work

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Speaker 1: with you to create something beautiful themselves apart from the materials. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: how did you? How did you know you could be

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Speaker 1: any good of that shit?

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Speaker 2: So I don't. I sort of Ever since I was

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Speaker 2: a kid, I've loved designing little things and like coming

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Speaker 2: up with different sort of creative ideas. Was I was

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Speaker 2: very artsy as a kid, and like I loved anything

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Speaker 2: to do with creating with my mind.

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Speaker 1: And then that sort of is first, and then that's right.

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Speaker 2: I can always see it. So I would always see

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Speaker 2: a design in my head first, and then i'd draw

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Speaker 2: it out on paper and then that's where we'd go

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Speaker 2: into CAD and be able to manufacture from there. So

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Speaker 2: it just sort of would always come to me. I'd

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Speaker 2: sort of get ideas that would pop into my head

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Speaker 2: and I'd sort of play around with it for a

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Speaker 2: number of weeks or months and like knuckle down exactly

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Speaker 2: what that design is going to be and how it'll

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Speaker 2: sort of work and if I can actually manufacture it

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Speaker 2: with timber, because it's a little bit hard. Like some

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Speaker 2: designs that I came up with looked amazing on paper,

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Speaker 2: but once you tried to work with it with timber,

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Speaker 2: it was a nightmare to try and manufacture. So I've

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Speaker 2: just always been a creative person. I suppose. I've loved

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Speaker 2: anything to do with creating some form of art, and

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Speaker 2: it just sort of came out in furniture, I suppose.

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Speaker 1: And how did you know that there would be demand

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Speaker 1: for this as a business.

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Speaker 2: Well, I saw that there was a lot of people

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Speaker 2: that were looking for specific sizes for certain things. Like

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Speaker 2: every time I would go into the furniture store with

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Speaker 2: my partner. We'd go looking for furniture and what not

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Speaker 2: for our house, and I'd always hear people, I want this,

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Speaker 2: but it's too big or it's too small, just a

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Speaker 2: little bit bigger. And I said to my missus, I

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Speaker 2: was like, like, why don't we just try and do this?

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Speaker 2: Like does it not make sense? Like I've got the

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Speaker 2: skill because when I first started, I wasn't manufacturing furniture.

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Speaker 2: I was doing like chopping boards and cheeseboards and coasters

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Speaker 2: and stuff. And I was like, I can turn this

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Speaker 2: in the furniture, Like why not. There's people that are

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Speaker 2: wanting it, so there's a demand there. And I saw

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Speaker 2: that that market was so niche that no one was

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Speaker 2: really doing it at the time. Ten years ago. There

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Speaker 2: was a few guys, but they were very they weren't

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Speaker 2: custom custom. It was like, hey, we got this design

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Speaker 2: in five different sizes, but that's it. Whereas I would

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Speaker 2: say to my clients, I'd go, hey, come in with.

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Speaker 1: A drawing while sketch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'd go I'll build whatever you want sort

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Speaker 2: of thing, because that's where I thrived. Like I loved

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Speaker 2: when people would come to me with something that looked

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Speaker 2: like you wouldn't be able to manufacture it and I'd

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Speaker 2: be able to bring it to life.

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Speaker 1: For so were you building with dows and what sort

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Speaker 1: of stuff?

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Speaker 2: So at the beginning we were a lot of a

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Speaker 2: lot of like like hand crafted joinery. When it got

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Speaker 2: onto more of a scaled sort of side of things,

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Speaker 2: we had to step back from that because it just

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Speaker 2: wasn't viable for you.

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Speaker 1: That makes sense, not feasible. So give me first customer.

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Speaker 1: I do.

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Speaker 2: Actually, my first big customer, I can't remember my very well,

300
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Speaker 2: My very very first customer was my cousin Paul. So

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Speaker 2: he asked me to build him a dining table. He goes, oh, man,

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Speaker 2: I reckon, you can do it. And I'm glad that

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Speaker 2: he did, because that dining table sold for like nine

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Speaker 2: hundred bucks to my cousin and that paid for my

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Speaker 2: first lot of tools. Because I started the company with

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Speaker 2: twenty six bucks in my bank account, so I had

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Speaker 2: I had nothing, no capital, nothing, So that sort of

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Speaker 2: started everything. And then I got one big client where

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Speaker 2: I fitted out a hair salon with all their benches

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Speaker 2: and everything, and then the love just sort of stemmed

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Speaker 2: from there when I saw all the beautiful timber fitted

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Speaker 2: out in an entire shop. I was like, this is

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Speaker 2: this is it? This is what I want to do.

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Speaker 1: And when did the demand start to pick up for you?

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Speaker 1: It's like maybe he'd tell me which period, like year wise.

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Speaker 2: So I sort of found in maybe the end of

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Speaker 2: the second year, started the third year.

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Speaker 1: Would you were talking about a twenty twenty.

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Speaker 2: This was in twenty seventeen. Yeah, so I started in

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Speaker 2: twenty fifteen and in twenty seventeen I started to see

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Speaker 2: a bit of demand where people just started rocking up

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Speaker 2: to the factory and saying, oh, you built a peace

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Speaker 2: for my friend down the road. And I was like, okay,

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Speaker 2: yeah cool because at the time we located now in Penrith.

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Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, so just in Western Sydney there and in Penrith,

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Speaker 2: and we've been in the same spot the entire time.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, Like I first started in Wearington in mum

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Speaker 2: and Dad's car port, but after about six months it

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Speaker 2: sort of outgrew that and had to move into a building.

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Speaker 2: So yeah, and then we started getting people just rock

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Speaker 2: up and say, hey, you built this for my friend,

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Speaker 2: or you build this for my cousin or whatever, and

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Speaker 2: can you build this for me, and I was like yeah, okay,

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Speaker 2: and it just sort of kept going and then it's

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Speaker 2: sort of snowballed. And then next thing we were manufacturing

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Speaker 2: for Tullamarine Airport and some really yeah yeah yeah, so

337
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Speaker 2: we manufactured the big airport and melting Yeah, the big

338
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Speaker 2: Melbourne airport.

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Speaker 1: Yeah.

340
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Speaker 2: So we manufactured these big bent limination archways with solid

341
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Speaker 2: timber opening doors and it was nine meters by three

342
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Speaker 2: point five meters. It's two of them. That was one

343
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Speaker 2: of our bigger projects that we did. So it's sort

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Speaker 2: of just speak.

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Speaker 1: So you're getting big customer deals.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. We ended up getting to a stage where

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Speaker 2: we were manufacturing quite quite big products, not just furniture.

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Speaker 1: How exciting was that? It was amazing who were employing then.

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Speaker 2: We had at that time just one me and one guy. Wow,

350
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Speaker 2: we were manufacturing everything, doing everything just me.

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Speaker 1: It made me working twenty four hours a day.

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Speaker 2: I would every day, seven days a week, and I'd

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Speaker 2: average sixteen eighteen hours a day.

354
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Speaker 1: And it's just you're only still a young fellow, but

355
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Speaker 1: you would have been even younger than like ten years

356
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Speaker 1: ago and moost Enuff. How energizing was that for you?

357
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Speaker 2: Oh? It was amazing. I thrived off no sleep like

358
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Speaker 2: it was great, Like because you're doing what you love.

359
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Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I was excited to get up and go

360
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Speaker 2: in the morning, like I wanted to get to work

361
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Speaker 2: to build stuff like that was amazing.

362
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Speaker 1: And would you say, looking back now, would you say

363
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Speaker 1: that there was something you did right? And was there

364
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Speaker 1: also you know that was making it work? And was

365
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Speaker 1: it but was also was there something that you weren't

366
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Speaker 1: doing right?

367
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Speaker 2: Yeah? Definitely. So what I was doing right I think

368
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Speaker 2: was I feel like people saw my passion when I talk.

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Speaker 1: About I can feel it you talk, Yeah, there you go.

370
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Speaker 2: So like I found That's what a lot of people

371
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Speaker 2: get excited with me while I was talking about what

372
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Speaker 2: we're going to build for them, because.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, can I just because I think I think one

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Speaker 1: of the reasons that is that say, just as I

375
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Speaker 1: think survey one, A lot of people share your love

376
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Speaker 1: of timber, yeah, and the way it can look, particularly

377
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Speaker 1: straining tim We a lot of us also share the

378
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Speaker 1: love of reused timber, reloved timber, but none of us

379
00:17:28,720 --> 00:17:30,680
Speaker 1: know to do it. Yeah, and then all of a

380
00:17:30,680 --> 00:17:32,760
Speaker 1: sudden we meet to do who shares the same passion,

381
00:17:33,920 --> 00:17:36,560
Speaker 1: but it can do it. Then it sort of combines

382
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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, you think, what's the possibilities

383
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Speaker 1: here as the customer, there's lots of possibilities here. I mean,

384
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Speaker 1: that's a that's a big deal.

385
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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's what we found. Is the main

386
00:17:47,960 --> 00:17:49,919
Speaker 2: reason why we've got a lot of work was because

387
00:17:51,160 --> 00:17:53,240
Speaker 2: I loved the fact that people would come to me

388
00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:56,400
Speaker 2: with crazy ideas and I would look at them and go, yeah,

389
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Speaker 2: I can manufacture that, and I'd have no idea how

390
00:17:58,200 --> 00:17:59,920
Speaker 2: I'm going to build it, and I'd figure it out.

391
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Speaker 1: So so just at that point before you forget it out,

392
00:18:03,600 --> 00:18:08,920
Speaker 1: just at that point is that the I don't want

393
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:10,880
Speaker 1: to call the art of the sale, but is that

394
00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:15,399
Speaker 1: what people wanted you to say? And that became a

395
00:18:15,440 --> 00:18:19,360
Speaker 1: strength of your business in terms of driving demand because

396
00:18:19,960 --> 00:18:23,119
Speaker 1: people just love your enthusiasm and you know, and not

397
00:18:23,320 --> 00:18:25,760
Speaker 1: oh that's too hard or it's going to be really expensive.

398
00:18:25,960 --> 00:18:28,240
Speaker 1: I mean, it was that a strength, I think.

399
00:18:28,320 --> 00:18:31,199
Speaker 2: So I think it was a strength because there is

400
00:18:31,280 --> 00:18:33,200
Speaker 2: guys that are still out there doing stuff as well,

401
00:18:33,240 --> 00:18:35,440
Speaker 2: but they won't take on sort of the same work

402
00:18:35,480 --> 00:18:39,280
Speaker 2: that we would take on. I would say it probably

403
00:18:39,320 --> 00:18:41,800
Speaker 2: would have been a strength because because I was sort

404
00:18:41,840 --> 00:18:46,080
Speaker 2: of game to take that sort of project on. Some

405
00:18:46,200 --> 00:18:48,560
Speaker 2: things were obviously way out of reach where I was like,

406
00:18:48,600 --> 00:18:50,760
Speaker 2: you can't you can't make timber bend like that or

407
00:18:50,800 --> 00:18:54,320
Speaker 2: whatever it may be. So there was some things where

408
00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:55,720
Speaker 2: I had to turn around and go, oh, look, sorry,

409
00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:57,639
Speaker 2: we can't do that, but we can do this, and

410
00:18:57,640 --> 00:19:00,119
Speaker 2: I'd give them a few other ideas that are similar that.

411
00:19:00,160 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 2: I knew that we'd be a manufacturer. So I think

412
00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:05,160
Speaker 2: it was a strength in the business to be able

413
00:19:05,200 --> 00:19:08,119
Speaker 2: to manufacture just about anything out of timber.

414
00:19:08,320 --> 00:19:12,919
Speaker 1: And what did you do wrong? Then? In hindsight, what

415
00:19:12,960 --> 00:19:13,600
Speaker 1: would you say?

416
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:18,800
Speaker 2: I honestly think that where it went wrong is I

417
00:19:18,880 --> 00:19:23,040
Speaker 2: just grew way too quick, too quick for like, too big,

418
00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:23,840
Speaker 2: too quick.

419
00:19:24,680 --> 00:19:26,840
Speaker 1: In terms of being able to resource the business with

420
00:19:26,960 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 1: people or capital everything about to buy the stock. I mean,

421
00:19:30,680 --> 00:19:33,800
Speaker 1: obviously you've got to keep timber, that's right. You've got

422
00:19:33,840 --> 00:19:36,520
Speaker 1: to have someone out there constantly going out and looking

423
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,080
Speaker 1: what I'm going to buy. They're going to buy, They're

424
00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,120
Speaker 1: going to buy that. You've got to store it. We're

425
00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:41,560
Speaker 1: going to have a warehouse or something like that in

426
00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:45,080
Speaker 1: your factory. So that's capital, Yeah, that's that's patient or

427
00:19:45,160 --> 00:19:48,000
Speaker 1: lazy capital, that's right. You need money, yeah, yeah, and

428
00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:49,520
Speaker 1: then you're going to get people to do the work,

429
00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:51,520
Speaker 1: that's right, because you can only there's only some nails

430
00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:54,280
Speaker 1: a day that you can work exactly for a long

431
00:19:54,480 --> 00:19:56,440
Speaker 1: for a certain amount of time, that's right.

432
00:19:56,560 --> 00:19:58,639
Speaker 2: So when it was just me and one other bloke,

433
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:03,320
Speaker 2: it seemed a little bit simpler. Yes, I worked crazy hours,

434
00:20:03,359 --> 00:20:05,960
Speaker 2: but it was easier to stock timber. I'd have heaps

435
00:20:05,960 --> 00:20:08,879
Speaker 2: of timber there all the time. I branched out and

436
00:20:08,920 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 2: actually opened up a trade company under the same name,

437
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,320
Speaker 2: and we would sell timber as well, so then that

438
00:20:14,359 --> 00:20:16,280
Speaker 2: would help me build a bit more capital to bring

439
00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:18,640
Speaker 2: more timber in so that I would have stock always there.

440
00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:22,840
Speaker 2: I ended up purchasing another company in twenty twenty three.

441
00:20:23,160 --> 00:20:25,320
Speaker 2: We took over that and then I expanded to seven

442
00:20:25,400 --> 00:20:29,320
Speaker 2: staff virtually overnight. And I think that's where our demidse

443
00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:29,720
Speaker 2: sort of.

444
00:20:30,200 --> 00:20:34,320
Speaker 1: Grew too fast. Yeah yeah, well, I mean I'll take

445
00:20:34,359 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 1: that back in a second, because when I say grow

446
00:20:36,040 --> 00:20:37,960
Speaker 1: too fast, I don't like it. It doesn't really explain

447
00:20:38,000 --> 00:20:42,440
Speaker 1: the problem or the issue. Grew beyond my resources, that's right, Yeah,

448
00:20:42,480 --> 00:20:45,520
Speaker 1: and that's everyone. No one grows too fast. But you

449
00:20:45,560 --> 00:20:46,920
Speaker 1: can grow beyond your resources.

450
00:20:47,040 --> 00:20:47,639
Speaker 2: That's what it was.

451
00:20:47,720 --> 00:20:50,440
Speaker 1: And all of a sudden you become a manager as

452
00:20:50,440 --> 00:20:54,919
Speaker 1: opposed to manufacturing manufacturer. You become a person manages other people.

453
00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,480
Speaker 1: That's right, and you're doing and that changes the whole

454
00:20:58,560 --> 00:20:59,240
Speaker 1: vibe of the joint.

455
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,479
Speaker 2: It did. That's exactly what happened.

456
00:21:01,960 --> 00:21:05,440
Speaker 1: And so we've gone from you doing what you absolutely

457
00:21:05,440 --> 00:21:08,360
Speaker 1: you've always dreamed about. You skilled yourself up, you did

458
00:21:08,359 --> 00:21:11,920
Speaker 1: all the right things. You were able to just authentically

459
00:21:12,160 --> 00:21:15,479
Speaker 1: win jobs because people could see your authenticity about the

460
00:21:15,480 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: project they were passionate about, and they I guess you

461
00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:23,200
Speaker 1: were running Instagram, Well how were you marketing?

462
00:21:23,520 --> 00:21:27,399
Speaker 2: So we we had socials everywhere? So what was it

463
00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 2: called Living Timberco was everything that was? That was your

464
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:33,600
Speaker 2: page everywhere. So we had that on Instagram, Facebook.

465
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,240
Speaker 1: And what you show? What did you show them? The process?

466
00:21:35,480 --> 00:21:39,080
Speaker 2: Yeah? So I used to do daily videos on my

467
00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 2: on my stories and I would show people processes. I

468
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: was very big on teaching other makers as well, Like

469
00:21:45,440 --> 00:21:48,160
Speaker 2: I loved being able to show how to manufacture things,

470
00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:49,720
Speaker 2: which I thought was just amazing.

471
00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:52,760
Speaker 1: I worked with a lot of gold successfully, We're getting

472
00:21:52,840 --> 00:21:53,439
Speaker 1: lots of following.

473
00:21:53,720 --> 00:21:57,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, we weren't having a huge following in the maker space. Yes,

474
00:21:57,640 --> 00:21:59,520
Speaker 2: we had heaps of heap of heaps of people, so

475
00:21:59,560 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: you ad yeah, yeah, And I actually ended up starting

476
00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:05,200
Speaker 2: a podcast with another made of mine called the Woodbiz

477
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:07,200
Speaker 2: Podcast that we used to run for about three years,

478
00:22:07,240 --> 00:22:10,440
Speaker 2: and I was teaching people how to manufacture and run

479
00:22:10,480 --> 00:22:15,639
Speaker 2: a business at the same time, which, in hindsight, yeah, yeah, yeah,

480
00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:20,000
Speaker 2: very brave. But it was good and like I enjoyed

481
00:22:20,000 --> 00:22:22,640
Speaker 2: it. It was amazing. But like you said, as soon as

482
00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: we grew to that point where resources became a bit hard,

483
00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:29,320
Speaker 2: I wasn't manufacturing as much. That's where I started a

484
00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:31,760
Speaker 2: step back from socials. I wasn't on there daily like

485
00:22:31,800 --> 00:22:33,639
Speaker 2: I used to be. I'd be lucky to get on

486
00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:37,000
Speaker 2: every other week. I was just too busy. I was

487
00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 2: still working crazy hours, but I was just managing a team,

488
00:22:40,280 --> 00:22:42,880
Speaker 2: managing products that were coming in. The company that we'd

489
00:22:42,880 --> 00:22:45,480
Speaker 2: taken over in twenty three was a wholesale company, so

490
00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:49,080
Speaker 2: then it was different to working with retail clients. We

491
00:22:49,080 --> 00:22:53,320
Speaker 2: were then beginning to manufacture, like the constant, the same

492
00:22:53,320 --> 00:22:56,000
Speaker 2: products over and over again, and it wasn't what it

493
00:22:56,280 --> 00:22:56,840
Speaker 2: used to be.

494
00:22:56,960 --> 00:23:01,200
Speaker 1: Can I as interests you should say that. And sometimes

495
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:04,080
Speaker 1: people come to me and they say, Mark, what should

496
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:06,080
Speaker 1: I do in this this is how the business is

497
00:23:06,080 --> 00:23:10,120
Speaker 1: going blah blah, And they if they are the type

498
00:23:10,119 --> 00:23:14,680
Speaker 1: of person you are, your personality, your character that is skilled,

499
00:23:15,480 --> 00:23:22,240
Speaker 1: great creative, absolutely love the material, the product, the process,

500
00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,879
Speaker 1: you know, maybe the lay, even using the lay, the

501
00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:33,680
Speaker 1: whole thing. I say to those people, you are a

502
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:35,720
Speaker 1: person who builds things out of timber, but you're not

503
00:23:35,760 --> 00:23:38,280
Speaker 1: a person who should be in the business or building

504
00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 1: things out of tim But they're different. And I say

505
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,520
Speaker 1: to those people, and I actually had it with a

506
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:44,760
Speaker 1: tattoo guy. There was a guy, a very well known

507
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,920
Speaker 1: tattoo artist here in Sydney, like one of the best known,

508
00:23:48,040 --> 00:23:54,280
Speaker 1: a great tatoo like Japanese style tattoos. And my advice

509
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,280
Speaker 1: to him was don't he was saying the same thing

510
00:23:57,320 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: as you were saying. He said he had to step

511
00:23:58,600 --> 00:24:00,560
Speaker 1: back from the business, start to manage people and employ

512
00:24:00,640 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: tattoo artists and all that sort of stuff, and run

513
00:24:03,680 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 1: the accounts and look at the debtors and look at

514
00:24:05,000 --> 00:24:07,200
Speaker 1: the creators blah blah blah, you know, do social media posts.

515
00:24:07,240 --> 00:24:09,760
Speaker 1: And I said, mate, why did you just step back

516
00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,520
Speaker 1: from that and employ someone to do that. Go find

517
00:24:12,560 --> 00:24:15,399
Speaker 1: a person who likes to be an administrator. That's right,

518
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:18,920
Speaker 1: because people who love to be creative like you, who

519
00:24:18,920 --> 00:24:25,040
Speaker 1: are artists essentially an artist, aren't any good administration as rare.

520
00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,120
Speaker 1: And by the way, administrators aren't any good at artistry.

521
00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:30,919
Speaker 1: But your business needs both, that's right. I mean, if

522
00:24:30,960 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: you had to come and see me years ago, I

523
00:24:33,400 --> 00:24:35,200
Speaker 1: probab would give me the same advice. I would say, mate,

524
00:24:35,200 --> 00:24:38,120
Speaker 1: you're better off employing somebody just slowing down a little bit,

525
00:24:38,640 --> 00:24:41,520
Speaker 1: employing someone to run all your shit. And I'm not

526
00:24:41,560 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 1: to a CEO or something not at that level, but

527
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:45,400
Speaker 1: like a manager.

528
00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:46,080
Speaker 2: That's right.

529
00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:50,200
Speaker 1: Someone can manage the business and you stay the lead

530
00:24:50,520 --> 00:24:54,159
Speaker 1: creator of the business and oversee the quality control and

531
00:24:54,200 --> 00:24:57,320
Speaker 1: oversee who the clients are that you're doing and making

532
00:24:57,359 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 1: sure that the timbers write timbers and all that sort

533
00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,959
Speaker 1: of stuff. Nearly like as someone who's a cross between

534
00:25:04,280 --> 00:25:07,760
Speaker 1: a general manager dash administrator and a chief financial officer

535
00:25:07,840 --> 00:25:11,560
Speaker 1: or a chief financial controller. Yeah, not a CFO to

536
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,280
Speaker 1: control or some of the controls the money in, the

537
00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:18,240
Speaker 1: money out yep, and comes in and says Heyden, this

538
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: month's a bit loaning because there's a month that you

539
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,720
Speaker 1: know people aren't buying. It's January. See, I don't know

540
00:25:24,720 --> 00:25:26,840
Speaker 1: if your business is seasonal, but I assume it's January.

541
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 1: It's a seasonal time. And you know this this month,

542
00:25:30,040 --> 00:25:32,920
Speaker 1: we can't be buying any more timber. We won't buy

543
00:25:32,920 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: a tim for the next two months. He's just gonna

544
00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: have to make do. Yeah, I mean that that's is

545
00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:38,480
Speaker 1: that something that would have worked for you back then?

546
00:25:39,000 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 2: So surprisingly, eighteen months ago, I actually took somebody on

547
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:45,640
Speaker 2: to do that. My my co host in the podcast,

548
00:25:45,720 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 2: he actually that's what he used to do and he

549
00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:50,240
Speaker 2: loved admin work. And that's he goes, I mean, I

550
00:25:50,240 --> 00:25:51,879
Speaker 2: want to come on board. Can we work together? And

551
00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 2: I said, yeah, no worries. Unfortunately I let my ego

552
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,240
Speaker 2: get in the way and I didn't let him step

553
00:25:58,240 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: into that role properly.

554
00:25:59,680 --> 00:26:01,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you've got a bit now, you've got to

555
00:26:01,720 --> 00:26:05,919
Speaker 1: let them. I was too stubborn and there's not so

556
00:26:06,000 --> 00:26:08,639
Speaker 1: much ego. You may be a bit too tough on yourself,

557
00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:11,920
Speaker 1: but it's sometimes it's I'm the owner, I'm the proprietor.

558
00:26:12,320 --> 00:26:15,159
Speaker 1: This is my baby. I can't I just it's not

559
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:20,080
Speaker 1: it's more like, I'm not ready yet to allow someone

560
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: to control the outcomes. It's not it's not that you

561
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:25,119
Speaker 1: thought you're better than in perhaps, I mean.

562
00:26:26,560 --> 00:26:27,400
Speaker 2: It was one hundred percent.

563
00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:28,359
Speaker 1: I didn't want to let it go.

564
00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:32,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. That was my baby at that point. It

565
00:26:32,400 --> 00:26:34,080
Speaker 2: was about around eight and a bit years that I've

566
00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:35,640
Speaker 2: been running it, and I was like, man, you can't

567
00:26:35,680 --> 00:26:37,280
Speaker 2: just walk in here and take over and do all this.

568
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,679
Speaker 2: But that's what we were working towards doing. And I

569
00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:40,920
Speaker 2: just couldn't let go of that.

570
00:26:40,920 --> 00:26:44,320
Speaker 1: That's an insecurity, it is. And there's an insecurity by

571
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,080
Speaker 1: the way that you will never do again. You would

572
00:26:46,119 --> 00:26:49,119
Speaker 1: never repeat that mistake. Yet, that's right, because that insecurity

573
00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: comes from not knowing what it's like to hand something

574
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,879
Speaker 1: over to somebody. And I mean I often say this

575
00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,680
Speaker 1: to people sometimes you just got to jump off the

576
00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,119
Speaker 1: cliff and let it happen, and I hope you and

577
00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: hit water, you know, because you can't sit down and

578
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: work out, Wow, can this person do that job as

579
00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: well as me? Probably not, But as long as they

580
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,240
Speaker 1: can do a good enough job, and over time you'll

581
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:17,400
Speaker 1: either see them grow into the business, into the role,

582
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,280
Speaker 1: or not grow into the role, at which point you

583
00:27:19,320 --> 00:27:22,360
Speaker 1: have to make another care mate. It's not working, that's right.

584
00:27:22,800 --> 00:27:25,080
Speaker 1: At which point you know, because it is your business

585
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:27,800
Speaker 1: and you've got to sit there your fingers crossed. You've

586
00:27:27,800 --> 00:27:30,720
Speaker 1: got to take those sort of leap of faith.

587
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:31,680
Speaker 2: That's right.

588
00:27:32,160 --> 00:27:34,560
Speaker 1: And you know the number of businesses that I've had

589
00:27:34,560 --> 00:27:37,000
Speaker 1: over the years, I started with a chief executive offer

590
00:27:37,000 --> 00:27:39,199
Speaker 1: and like someone who's in charge of the joint and

591
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,240
Speaker 1: then as the business grows a lot of times those

592
00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: individuals weren't any good for the business any longer, and

593
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,399
Speaker 1: I've had to move mine. Or a GFC occurs, or

594
00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:53,960
Speaker 1: a COVID occurs, a GFC occurs or a COVID occurs,

595
00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,639
Speaker 1: you have to change positioning. And it's more about managing

596
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:00,600
Speaker 1: money or something like that than again you can make.

597
00:28:00,680 --> 00:28:01,800
Speaker 1: You have to make a change. You have to be

598
00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,960
Speaker 1: prepared to make those calls. That's why it's hard.

599
00:28:03,960 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: When it's a friend, it is so he was like

600
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:09,280
Speaker 2: a I wouldn't say he's like a mate, like he

601
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 2: was just in the industry and we would work together.

602
00:28:11,720 --> 00:28:14,119
Speaker 2: So our first business went well together and we were like,

603
00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 2: let's do it. And I really wish that I had

604
00:28:17,520 --> 00:28:20,719
Speaker 2: have Like it's hard because past has passed. It happened,

605
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: But if I had have just let go and went, yep, mate,

606
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:26,520
Speaker 2: it would have been a different story. He actually did

607
00:28:26,560 --> 00:28:29,680
Speaker 2: that same role now for his dad's bathroom renovation company,

608
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:34,040
Speaker 2: and that's grown exponentially because his dad stepped back and went.

609
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,040
Speaker 1: Yep, he's really good at it.

610
00:28:36,320 --> 00:28:40,040
Speaker 2: So in hindsight, if I had let him take over,

611
00:28:40,240 --> 00:28:42,680
Speaker 2: then would have been a very different story today, I think.

612
00:28:42,760 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: So where you're at now with this thing that you

613
00:28:45,120 --> 00:28:47,440
Speaker 1: you know, like clearly you loved it, you still love it.

614
00:28:48,400 --> 00:28:50,840
Speaker 1: You put a lot of years into it, eight years

615
00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,760
Speaker 1: you're you know, you've obviously learned a lot from it all. Well,

616
00:28:55,760 --> 00:28:56,800
Speaker 1: where's the business at now?

617
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:01,320
Speaker 2: So the business has completely gone now, it's completely closed up. Yeah,

618
00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 2: we've closed up as of two weeks ago.

619
00:29:03,840 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 1: Do you have to go to administration or what?

620
00:29:05,520 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 2: So we went into liquidation liquidation Yeah.

621
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:10,800
Speaker 1: Yeah, the liquidate didn't try and sell the business.

622
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we it was voluntary liquidation.

623
00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 1: We went into Yeah, So what was the overwhelming piece?

624
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:22,960
Speaker 1: Lack of demand, like inability to supply, cost, cost pressure,

625
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:23,480
Speaker 1: what was it?

626
00:29:23,520 --> 00:29:26,000
Speaker 2: There was quite a lot of stuff, so supply became

627
00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:28,200
Speaker 2: a little bit more harder. With the scale that we

628
00:29:28,200 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 2: were at, we weren't able to get as much timbering

629
00:29:30,520 --> 00:29:33,080
Speaker 2: as often as we could, like we used to be able.

630
00:29:32,960 --> 00:29:35,680
Speaker 1: To get relative to the business the jobs you've taken on.

631
00:29:35,800 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 2: Correct, Yeah, as well as there was a lot of

632
00:29:39,480 --> 00:29:42,280
Speaker 2: factors in the forestry industry and stuff. A lot of

633
00:29:42,280 --> 00:29:44,640
Speaker 2: that was starting to get taken away from a lot

634
00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 2: of the big milling companies and stuff like that. They

635
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,120
Speaker 2: weren't allowed to many of like meal, as much timber

636
00:29:50,120 --> 00:29:52,040
Speaker 2: as they used to, and it was starting to just

637
00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:55,040
Speaker 2: get to that stage where there was so much sort

638
00:29:55,080 --> 00:29:57,720
Speaker 2: of demand but not as much supply. And then we

639
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: got the other end of the spectrum where the demands

640
00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 2: started to drop. As soon as interest rates started rising

641
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,520
Speaker 2: in the economy about eighteen months ago or so, we've

642
00:30:05,560 --> 00:30:09,520
Speaker 2: sort of found that the more higher end custom products

643
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:10,360
Speaker 2: started to come down.

644
00:30:10,440 --> 00:30:12,840
Speaker 1: So people were just saying, look, I'll go to somewhere

645
00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:16,960
Speaker 1: else already built, it's already made, I'll copy it. Sweet.

646
00:30:17,520 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 1: I can't be indulgent, that's right. I can't indulge my

647
00:30:21,080 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: dreams and my passions for the time being until the

648
00:30:23,400 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: rates come back exactly.

649
00:30:24,840 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that's what we found was sort of it was.

650
00:30:28,080 --> 00:30:30,000
Speaker 2: We started to see it a little bit, and that

651
00:30:30,080 --> 00:30:32,080
Speaker 2: was the main reason why I expanded and took over

652
00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:34,800
Speaker 2: another company in twenty twenty three, because I thought I

653
00:30:34,840 --> 00:30:37,800
Speaker 2: need to pivot somewhere. We started to notice that with

654
00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:40,920
Speaker 2: the interest rates slowly creeping, that our sales were starting

655
00:30:40,920 --> 00:30:43,080
Speaker 2: to decline. They went, all right, well, let's get into wholesale.

656
00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,000
Speaker 2: If we wholesale, we can manufacture for the big box stores,

657
00:30:46,000 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 2: which we've manufactured for quite a few which was great,

658
00:30:48,800 --> 00:30:52,600
Speaker 2: but the margins were a lot less, and then the downside,

659
00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:54,720
Speaker 2: we're doing that in twenty twenty three. We'd just come

660
00:30:54,760 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 2: off the back of an expansion in twenty twenty where

661
00:30:56,720 --> 00:30:59,560
Speaker 2: we jumped into a building three times a size and

662
00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:01,760
Speaker 2: put couple other people on and stuff like that. Rent

663
00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:03,680
Speaker 2: that's right, more rent, more overheads.

664
00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,720
Speaker 1: The bier premises are, the more electricity pay, and more

665
00:31:07,760 --> 00:31:09,160
Speaker 1: people going to have to fill it.

666
00:31:09,160 --> 00:31:12,920
Speaker 2: And overheads just became exponential. So I didn't actually have

667
00:31:13,000 --> 00:31:15,120
Speaker 2: stable margins by the time I then did my other

668
00:31:15,320 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 2: expansion in twenty twenty three, and that's sort of where

669
00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,040
Speaker 2: I should have probably stepped back a bit and went, no,

670
00:31:21,160 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 2: let's think about this, Yes, this opportunity is come up

671
00:31:23,760 --> 00:31:26,120
Speaker 2: to take over this other company and merge it with ours.

672
00:31:26,760 --> 00:31:28,560
Speaker 2: Is it safe to do so at the moment or

673
00:31:28,600 --> 00:31:32,520
Speaker 2: is it not? And yeah, evidently it just wasn't it too?

674
00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:35,959
Speaker 2: We still were sort of paying off debts from our

675
00:31:35,960 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: expansion that we did in twenty twenty. I should have

676
00:31:39,240 --> 00:31:42,440
Speaker 2: essentially left it another twelve months, let that all clear up,

677
00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,720
Speaker 2: and then maybe look at expanding again.

678
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:48,720
Speaker 1: So it just maybe explained to it in terms of

679
00:31:48,760 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 1: lessons learned, how would you now say, it's yourself you're

680
00:31:56,920 --> 00:32:02,840
Speaker 1: talking to back in twenty twenty three and an opportunity

681
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: arises to buy this wholesale company, knowing what you know? Now,

682
00:32:09,480 --> 00:32:13,360
Speaker 1: what would you say to yourself? Because you know, we

683
00:32:13,960 --> 00:32:16,680
Speaker 1: get caught up. There's a seduct This is very seductive.

684
00:32:16,680 --> 00:32:18,680
Speaker 1: There's a opportunity to buy this business. I can really

685
00:32:18,680 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: see all the logic around it, you know, how it

686
00:32:21,120 --> 00:32:23,840
Speaker 1: all fits in, all looks great like In terms of

687
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: a puzzle, how do you deal with that seductiveness relative

688
00:32:30,520 --> 00:32:33,480
Speaker 1: to say, just being patient and being prepared to miss

689
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:34,080
Speaker 1: out on something.

690
00:32:34,880 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 2: So if I was to look back at it now,

691
00:32:38,680 --> 00:32:41,480
Speaker 2: I would have one hundred percent chosen my passion over

692
00:32:42,160 --> 00:32:48,680
Speaker 2: over growth, mainly because that passion did fizzle quite a

693
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,360
Speaker 2: bit once we did do that growth. So I had

694
00:32:52,360 --> 00:32:54,000
Speaker 2: the choice to do it all over again, I wouldn't

695
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:55,000
Speaker 2: have wouldn't touch that coin.

696
00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:56,840
Speaker 1: What would you say to yourself, though.

697
00:32:56,920 --> 00:32:59,040
Speaker 2: I would, I would tell myself to stick with your passion.

698
00:32:59,120 --> 00:33:01,880
Speaker 2: Do what you love. If you love manufacturing, even though

699
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,680
Speaker 2: I was working crazy hours every single day, I still

700
00:33:04,760 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 2: enjoyed it. It was amazing, And I would have said,

701
00:33:08,240 --> 00:33:11,560
Speaker 2: let's double down on socials and maybe push socials.

702
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,520
Speaker 1: More and stay in your lane a little bit.

703
00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 2: That's right, Stay in the lane. Don't expand into something

704
00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,640
Speaker 2: that you don't want to expand in. Do purely because

705
00:33:19,640 --> 00:33:22,200
Speaker 2: of cash float Like, yeah, I was looking at it

706
00:33:22,320 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 2: in the sense of it's a company that's been running.

707
00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: That company that we took over was running for twenty

708
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:31,160
Speaker 2: three years. So I was like, it's a well known company.

709
00:33:31,320 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: They've got quite a few clients. And I was like,

710
00:33:33,360 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 2: it's great, it's easy money. The downside was it wasn't

711
00:33:37,920 --> 00:33:39,560
Speaker 2: It wasn't exciting stuff to build.

712
00:33:39,680 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 1: It wasn't so you had to manage it.

713
00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,320
Speaker 2: And then you had to manage it. That's right. So

714
00:33:43,880 --> 00:33:47,400
Speaker 2: then it was almost like having sort of almost like

715
00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,480
Speaker 2: having two separate companies that I was trying to manage

716
00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:53,000
Speaker 2: together because there's this wholesale manufacturing company that's just pumping

717
00:33:53,040 --> 00:33:55,240
Speaker 2: out the same things all the time, and then there's

718
00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 2: Living Timberco at its heart where it was custom, beautiful, manufactured,

719
00:34:00,640 --> 00:34:04,080
Speaker 2: handcrafted furniture, and I'm trying to balance both of those.

720
00:34:05,800 --> 00:34:08,520
Speaker 2: So yeah, if I went back, I would tell myself

721
00:34:08,560 --> 00:34:11,600
Speaker 2: to stick with your passion and like, screw the money.

722
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: It is what it is, It'll come if you keep

723
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:13,960
Speaker 2: following your passion.

724
00:34:14,320 --> 00:34:17,279
Speaker 1: And it was also bad timing too, like maybe just

725
00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:19,680
Speaker 1: not the time that's right, you know, maybe it's maybe

726
00:34:19,680 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: you could have waited and done the wholesome business five

727
00:34:22,000 --> 00:34:24,680
Speaker 1: years down the track exactly. And if you can't, if

728
00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,000
Speaker 1: you can't buy that one, you create your own PABs

729
00:34:27,040 --> 00:34:30,919
Speaker 1: or start from the beginning, because it can. I ask

730
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,880
Speaker 1: you the moment do you remember, and I'm sure you do,

731
00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:38,920
Speaker 1: the moment that you decided to go on to volunteer liquidation.

732
00:34:40,760 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 2: Yes and no, Like it was that was pretty soon.

733
00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 2: I did see it sort of coming. I was fighting

734
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,280
Speaker 2: it because I didn't want it to. Yeah, I've spent

735
00:34:50,440 --> 00:34:51,879
Speaker 2: ten years of my life building this thing.

736
00:34:52,400 --> 00:34:55,080
Speaker 1: So when you know that sort, that's my point, Like,

737
00:34:55,680 --> 00:34:58,759
Speaker 1: when do you know shit is inevitable? Stop? Stop the fight?

738
00:34:59,120 --> 00:35:01,439
Speaker 1: Like if you could have in a voluntary degradation, say

739
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:04,240
Speaker 1: six months later, would you save yourself a lot of time, energy, hassle,

740
00:35:04,400 --> 00:35:05,520
Speaker 1: part pain, et cetera.

741
00:35:05,880 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 2: If I'd have done it six to twelve months ago,

742
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 2: probably would have been a lot easier.

743
00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, And what was it that held you back from

744
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:13,520
Speaker 1: doing it?

745
00:35:15,239 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 2: I think stubbornness. I didn't want to lose it. I

746
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: really didn't want to lose it.

747
00:35:18,760 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 1: So how do you reconcole that? Because that's a great thing,

748
00:35:21,160 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 1: not being stubborn and being determined and not want to

749
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 1: lose the thing that you built? I get it. Yeah,

750
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,719
Speaker 1: But how do you reconcole that with what would have

751
00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,400
Speaker 1: been a more practical outcome for you? How did other

752
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 1: people judge this that? When do I say that's enough,

753
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:36,920
Speaker 1: I've got to give up?

754
00:35:37,120 --> 00:35:38,480
Speaker 2: Yeah?

755
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:41,160
Speaker 1: How would you do that again today? How would you

756
00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 1: make that decision?

757
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,840
Speaker 2: If I was to make that decision again today, I

758
00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:50,360
Speaker 2: would probably Like I'm very big on working on yourself,

759
00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,960
Speaker 2: so like I work on my own mentality quite a lot.

760
00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:56,279
Speaker 2: Whereas I gave that up in twenty twenty three when

761
00:35:56,320 --> 00:35:58,640
Speaker 2: I took over that other company and I just worked

762
00:35:58,640 --> 00:36:01,360
Speaker 2: on the business, stop focusing on helping like benefiting me.

763
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:07,120
Speaker 2: I think if you if you work on yourself and

764
00:36:08,040 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: like it'll it'll be more beneficial long term.

765
00:36:10,400 --> 00:36:11,919
Speaker 1: You mean being in touch with this of being aware,

766
00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:13,080
Speaker 1: being aware what it is doing to you.

767
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like I got to a stage where I was

768
00:36:15,560 --> 00:36:17,440
Speaker 2: just stress mode and that was it. There was no

769
00:36:17,719 --> 00:36:19,720
Speaker 2: and I would just push it to the side.

770
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:21,279
Speaker 1: You're just doing every day, that's right.

771
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:23,680
Speaker 2: I'll just work, work, work, and I wouldn't think about, hey,

772
00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:25,160
Speaker 2: what is this doing to your body? What is it

773
00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:27,279
Speaker 2: doing to your mind? And I actually had a big

774
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:31,440
Speaker 2: mental breakdown in August twenty twenty four, so that that was.

775
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:34,160
Speaker 1: Quiet and how does that manifest itself? So I think

776
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:35,479
Speaker 1: you get depressed or something.

777
00:36:35,600 --> 00:36:38,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, it was quite a big sort of issue. I

778
00:36:38,280 --> 00:36:40,920
Speaker 2: sort of felt it coming and then all of a sudden,

779
00:36:40,960 --> 00:36:43,040
Speaker 2: I had this big crash and I couldn't even go

780
00:36:43,080 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: and set Like I was on the couch and I

781
00:36:45,960 --> 00:36:48,279
Speaker 2: was just like, I don't know, it just randomly will

782
00:36:48,320 --> 00:36:50,640
Speaker 2: start balling and crying and my wife was like, what's

783
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:53,239
Speaker 2: going on, She's panicking. I had an idea what was

784
00:36:53,280 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: going on, and then it turns out that it was

785
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: just this big burnout and crash that i'd had.

786
00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,680
Speaker 1: Were you sharing? Was it a a result of you

787
00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:04,520
Speaker 1: not sharing things with your wife and others? Yea, everything

788
00:37:04,640 --> 00:37:06,479
Speaker 1: to me, I'm going to hold it back in. Yeah.

789
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,120
Speaker 2: I was like, this is happening, but I need to

790
00:37:08,160 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 2: deal with everything else outside. So I was trying to

791
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:12,400
Speaker 2: deal with all the business getting that.

792
00:37:12,320 --> 00:37:14,600
Speaker 1: Go there do you go again? I think so, yeah,

793
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:17,720
Speaker 1: Well I don't mean to go in a bad sense. No, yeah, definitely,

794
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: but this is my problem. I go to sort it

795
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:20,960
Speaker 1: time of tund that's right.

796
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:22,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's how I looked at it. I was like,

797
00:37:22,400 --> 00:37:24,200
Speaker 2: the weights on my shoulders. I got to deal with it.

798
00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:26,919
Speaker 1: And would you say, and how have you reconciled from

799
00:37:26,960 --> 00:37:29,839
Speaker 1: that moment where you know you crashed to the moment

800
00:37:29,840 --> 00:37:33,240
Speaker 1: where we are now, how have you reconciled that's for yourself? Like, okay,

801
00:37:33,320 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: well I had to put a voluntary liquidation, that's hidley.

802
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:37,200
Speaker 1: How have you reconcile that in your own mind?

803
00:37:37,400 --> 00:37:41,640
Speaker 2: So I actually went deep into working on myself mentally.

804
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:45,080
Speaker 2: So I do daily meditations now and I work on

805
00:37:45,160 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: myself I do breath work, I do yogurt, I do

806
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:50,640
Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff to work on me. And

807
00:37:50,719 --> 00:37:54,799
Speaker 2: I found that even going into voluntary liquidation, if it

808
00:37:54,880 --> 00:37:56,759
Speaker 2: was twelve eighten months ago, I would have been in

809
00:37:56,800 --> 00:38:00,759
Speaker 2: this panic mode and stressing out and whatnot. But I

810
00:38:00,760 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 2: feel like it was more clear more. There was a

811
00:38:03,280 --> 00:38:06,600
Speaker 2: lot more clarity, I think because I did work on myself.

812
00:38:06,719 --> 00:38:10,360
Speaker 2: I worked on how to regulate my own emotions and

813
00:38:10,960 --> 00:38:15,640
Speaker 2: just pushed myself to teach myself to feel what I'm

814
00:38:15,640 --> 00:38:19,319
Speaker 2: feeling and say, right, you're stressing out, Why you're stressing out,

815
00:38:19,400 --> 00:38:21,799
Speaker 2: figure it out, and then work on it, rather than

816
00:38:21,800 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: going you're stressing out, forget about it. You've got to

817
00:38:23,680 --> 00:38:27,080
Speaker 2: deal with this. And I found by doing that and

818
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 2: doing my meditations and working on myself and figuring out

819
00:38:32,040 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 2: my own emotions when they are starting to arise, and

820
00:38:35,080 --> 00:38:37,160
Speaker 2: talking to people about it and stuff like that, I

821
00:38:37,239 --> 00:38:40,520
Speaker 2: found that open. Yeah, that's right, and it helped me heap.

822
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,400
Speaker 2: So when all this stuff had happened and the company

823
00:38:43,400 --> 00:38:46,560
Speaker 2: went into liquidation, I was like, Okay, yep, this is

824
00:38:46,560 --> 00:38:48,919
Speaker 2: what we've got to deal with now. There's no point

825
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: in dwelling. What's the point is sitting here and crying

826
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: and stressing and yelling and going no, you can't do

827
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:54,960
Speaker 2: this to me, blah blah blah, Like it is what

828
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: it is.

829
00:38:55,440 --> 00:38:59,439
Speaker 1: Can you get angry with the government conditions? I mean?

830
00:38:59,760 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: And if so, is it okay to be angry with somebody?

831
00:39:03,040 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 1: And you know where does blame sit and all this stuff?

832
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:09,479
Speaker 1: And yeah, self pity where all those things fit?

833
00:39:09,760 --> 00:39:14,480
Speaker 2: So like, yes, yes, there is sort of some blame

834
00:39:14,520 --> 00:39:16,360
Speaker 2: there within the government. But at the end of the day,

835
00:39:16,600 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 2: I'm the director of the company, so I make all

836
00:39:18,280 --> 00:39:22,480
Speaker 2: the decisions. Everything comes on to me, regardless. Economic pressures

837
00:39:22,480 --> 00:39:24,719
Speaker 2: were a big part of the reason why we close down,

838
00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: which I suppose falls in part on the government and

839
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:32,239
Speaker 2: what's going on with the economy and whatnot. But be

840
00:39:32,360 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 2: on end or I'm the director of the company. I've

841
00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:37,680
Speaker 2: got to take sort of the blame sort of comes

842
00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 2: to me at the end of the day because I

843
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:41,240
Speaker 2: make all the decisions within the business.

844
00:39:41,600 --> 00:39:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah. So it's interesting because I read a book min

845
00:39:43,760 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 1: years ago called What It Takes, and I think I

846
00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:50,120
Speaker 1: dedicate a whole chapter this, But I'm glad you raise

847
00:39:50,120 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 1: it because you just reminded me of it. Every now

848
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 1: and then I say in one of those chapters, you've

849
00:39:54,800 --> 00:39:59,480
Speaker 1: got to take a step back from yourself and just

850
00:39:59,520 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: observe yourself wrestling in the mud with all the shit,

851
00:40:02,520 --> 00:40:06,600
Speaker 1: all your drama, because that's a lot of people just

852
00:40:06,640 --> 00:40:09,480
Speaker 1: can keep wrestling in the mud and just and there's

853
00:40:09,520 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: no one, no winner. You're just going to simulately to suffocate.

854
00:40:12,840 --> 00:40:16,000
Speaker 1: And I think it's important every now and then for everyone,

855
00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:19,400
Speaker 1: every business to take a step back and observe what yourself.

856
00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:22,560
Speaker 1: If you can, like I mean, remove yourself from yourself

857
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:26,439
Speaker 1: in a quantum sense I'm talking about and say, well,

858
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 1: what the hell are you doing down there, Dean? Look

859
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:32,960
Speaker 1: at you. You're and you're you know, you're just wrestling

860
00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: wrestling wrestling, and you're not going You're not getting anywhere,

861
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:38,160
Speaker 1: You're just slipping off them. If you can imagine that

862
00:40:38,160 --> 00:40:42,239
Speaker 1: that process and there's no winner, that's right. And once

863
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:44,720
Speaker 1: you step back from that, you can say, well, maybe

864
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:46,600
Speaker 1: now it's time to call it quits. And people often

865
00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,120
Speaker 1: say to me, like, when do I know it's time

866
00:40:48,160 --> 00:40:50,600
Speaker 1: to give up? Yeah, well, I think if you can

867
00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:53,839
Speaker 1: just remove yourself from your own ego. And I don't

868
00:40:53,840 --> 00:40:56,800
Speaker 1: mean it in an egotistical sense. I mean, remove yourself

869
00:40:56,800 --> 00:41:00,040
Speaker 1: from me, that's right, Yes, and look at my just

870
00:41:00,080 --> 00:41:00,680
Speaker 1: have a look.

871
00:41:00,600 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: Remove yourself from your physical body to see what's going on.

872
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: Which is what you do when you do yoga or

873
00:41:05,400 --> 00:41:08,640
Speaker 1: you do meditation, et cetera, the same thing. But I'm

874
00:41:08,680 --> 00:41:10,239
Speaker 1: sort of just trying to be a little bit more

875
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:12,319
Speaker 1: practical for most people. But I do it. I mean

876
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,399
Speaker 1: I often do it, like I've done it many times over.

877
00:41:14,480 --> 00:41:17,080
Speaker 1: I do it all the time. What's actually what are

878
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:18,160
Speaker 1: you actually doing? Mark?

879
00:41:18,360 --> 00:41:18,640
Speaker 2: Yes?

880
00:41:18,960 --> 00:41:22,600
Speaker 1: And and then and then once you get a bit

881
00:41:22,600 --> 00:41:24,960
Speaker 1: of clarity around that, because it's about getting clarity about

882
00:41:25,000 --> 00:41:27,360
Speaker 1: what you're up to share it, talk to some people,

883
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 1: that's right, anyone who's close to, anyone you trust, which

884
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:33,600
Speaker 1: is why it's important in business to have people around

885
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:34,320
Speaker 1: you that you trust.

886
00:41:34,440 --> 00:41:34,879
Speaker 2: That's right.

887
00:41:35,120 --> 00:41:38,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know they're not necessarily mentors or whatever the case.

888
00:41:38,120 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 1: Just someone who you can verbalize and articulate what you

889
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 1: just observed, not what.

890
00:41:44,560 --> 00:41:46,600
Speaker 2: You're feeling, no, no, no, what you.

891
00:41:46,640 --> 00:41:47,600
Speaker 1: Observed about yourself.

892
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:48,080
Speaker 2: That's right.

893
00:41:48,160 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: You know what, the other day, I was just thinking,

894
00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:51,960
Speaker 1: I was watching myself and I just think this is

895
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:55,640
Speaker 1: a bullshit. It's not going anywhere. Just scrape myself off

896
00:41:55,640 --> 00:41:56,960
Speaker 1: the wall and I fall back down. I'll go back

897
00:41:57,000 --> 00:41:59,680
Speaker 1: on a full way down. I mean, if you're religious,

898
00:41:59,200 --> 00:42:02,920
Speaker 1: it's been locked in purgatory. You're never going to get out.

899
00:42:03,320 --> 00:42:06,360
Speaker 1: You're not getting out. So in which case you say, okay,

900
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 1: well you can have it on your own, I'm out

901
00:42:08,360 --> 00:42:13,399
Speaker 1: because there's I think, in my personal view, I don't

902
00:42:13,400 --> 00:42:18,560
Speaker 1: think there's any shame in closing that any business. In fact,

903
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:23,560
Speaker 1: I think it's as long as you're prepared to it's enlightening.

904
00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:26,520
Speaker 1: You can learn stuff about what never to do again.

905
00:42:27,000 --> 00:42:29,360
Speaker 1: And what's really good about you doing is that you

906
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,640
Speaker 1: are prepared to go and share it, so you're actually

907
00:42:32,680 --> 00:42:34,719
Speaker 1: teaching other people. Because not many people get on the

908
00:42:34,719 --> 00:42:36,920
Speaker 1: show and talk about there are always is about success.

909
00:42:37,239 --> 00:42:40,480
Speaker 1: Not many people have the wherewithal to sit down and

910
00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:45,239
Speaker 1: talk about this. And business has more failures, many more

911
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:47,319
Speaker 1: failures than success, many many more.

912
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:47,839
Speaker 2: That's it.

913
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:51,839
Speaker 1: Even the great businesses, many many more. I mean, I've

914
00:42:51,880 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: seen so many of them, and rarely do they want

915
00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:59,800
Speaker 1: to share it. And what you've been talking about today

916
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:04,880
Speaker 1: is people will be listening to this. A lot of

917
00:43:04,920 --> 00:43:08,439
Speaker 1: people will be sitting here one because we have tough

918
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:11,000
Speaker 1: economic conditions at the moment, and looks like twenty twenty

919
00:43:11,040 --> 00:43:13,600
Speaker 1: six could even be tougher again because the interest rates

920
00:43:13,640 --> 00:43:15,160
Speaker 1: are not going to go down, They're going to stay

921
00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 1: where they are, and indeed some commentators are saying that

922
00:43:18,200 --> 00:43:20,839
Speaker 1: they're going to go up. We will be in from

923
00:43:20,960 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: tough time and there will be people thinking to themselves, Wow,

924
00:43:26,360 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 1: this could be me. What happened to Dean?

925
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:29,440
Speaker 2: That's right?

926
00:43:29,560 --> 00:43:34,239
Speaker 1: And what's that process like? And how do I deal

927
00:43:34,239 --> 00:43:37,399
Speaker 1: with it? For you, it's probably a relief, it really is.

928
00:43:37,520 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 2: Like I feel, as odd as it is, I'm actually

929
00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:44,960
Speaker 2: much happier than I have been in the last two years.

930
00:43:45,000 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: It's this big almost like yeah, like this weight lifted

931
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,759
Speaker 2: off my shoulders. But the way that I'm looking at

932
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: it is as well, is like you said, this isn't

933
00:43:54,719 --> 00:43:57,920
Speaker 2: just the failure. The business hasn't just failed. I've learnt

934
00:43:57,960 --> 00:43:59,560
Speaker 2: so much over the last ten years.

935
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:01,120
Speaker 1: And enjoyed stuff too, and I've loved it.

936
00:44:01,160 --> 00:44:02,520
Speaker 2: That's right. I've loved every bit of it.

937
00:44:02,560 --> 00:44:03,399
Speaker 1: And you still love Wood.

938
00:44:03,520 --> 00:44:05,759
Speaker 2: I still love Tim, but I still love it, that's right.

939
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:09,799
Speaker 2: I enjoy what I did and I still love every

940
00:44:09,800 --> 00:44:13,120
Speaker 2: single part of it. I will probably take a step

941
00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:14,680
Speaker 2: back for a little bit from it, just to sort

942
00:44:14,680 --> 00:44:17,680
Speaker 2: of unwind and relax and sort of gather thoughts and

943
00:44:17,680 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 2: do whatever I'm doing. But I'm looking at this as

944
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:23,799
Speaker 2: the next path forward now. So yes, yes, it's the

945
00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:26,840
Speaker 2: end of living Timberco's it's really sad that it's all happened.

946
00:44:26,840 --> 00:44:28,680
Speaker 2: But I've learned so much so that then that way

947
00:44:28,680 --> 00:44:31,200
Speaker 2: I can build myself up again. I'm already sort of

948
00:44:31,200 --> 00:44:33,399
Speaker 2: slowly working on something else in the back of it now,

949
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,920
Speaker 2: So I thought, what's the point of sitting down and

950
00:44:35,920 --> 00:44:37,600
Speaker 2: doing nothing, twiddle my thumbs.

951
00:44:37,360 --> 00:44:38,440
Speaker 1: And feeling sorry for yourself?

952
00:44:38,440 --> 00:44:41,359
Speaker 2: That's right. I now know what I don't need to do,

953
00:44:41,400 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: like I know how to not do it, so that

954
00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,200
Speaker 2: in that way I can I can learn from what

955
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 2: I've done in the last ten years and grow from

956
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:51,480
Speaker 2: that scale, maybe a little bit slower, bring people on

957
00:44:51,840 --> 00:44:54,680
Speaker 2: a little bit slower, all that sort of stuff. It's

958
00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,080
Speaker 2: it's to me, a failure is a lesson.

959
00:44:57,640 --> 00:45:01,160
Speaker 1: It's interesting, you should say, because some often people in

960
00:45:01,280 --> 00:45:04,160
Speaker 1: businesses not about learning about what you need to do,

961
00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:06,359
Speaker 1: what you should do. There's a lot of times learning

962
00:45:06,360 --> 00:45:10,080
Speaker 1: about what you shouldn't do. That's right. Those lessons are

963
00:45:10,160 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: probably to some extent more valuable, but they are only

964
00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:16,560
Speaker 1: lived in experiences. There are things no one can really

965
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,040
Speaker 1: tell you about. You have to there's too many of them.

966
00:45:19,080 --> 00:45:24,319
Speaker 1: You have to live that experience. And and just one

967
00:45:24,320 --> 00:45:29,560
Speaker 1: final questions. Slightly off pieces, a little bit different. But

968
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,800
Speaker 1: when it comes to someone like you in this game,

969
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:38,480
Speaker 1: that is I love a timber and using Timbra's furniture.

970
00:45:41,400 --> 00:45:50,480
Speaker 1: Have you got someone who's architecture or design that you've

971
00:45:50,520 --> 00:45:54,120
Speaker 1: always loved. Is there's someone who like Frank Lloyd Wright

972
00:45:54,200 --> 00:45:55,640
Speaker 1: for example? You know, I don't know if you know

973
00:45:55,680 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 1: Frank Lloyd Right, the famous interior, famous architecture generally, but

974
00:46:00,640 --> 00:46:02,759
Speaker 1: he always designed his own furniture. Yeah, and he had

975
00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,360
Speaker 1: that sort of Japanese sort of was always timber, and

976
00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,960
Speaker 1: he had that Japanese sort of sort of influence on

977
00:46:08,080 --> 00:46:11,400
Speaker 1: him because he lives in Japan. Flog tip. Is there

978
00:46:11,440 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: someone like him that inspired you and still inspires you?

979
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:21,880
Speaker 2: I don't one hundred percent no, really like it's it's

980
00:46:22,320 --> 00:46:26,000
Speaker 2: as weird as it is. I I went into this

981
00:46:26,560 --> 00:46:29,960
Speaker 2: industry not knowing anything about the industry, not knowing anything

982
00:46:29,960 --> 00:46:32,680
Speaker 2: about furniture design, nothing, So I didn't have anybody that

983
00:46:32,800 --> 00:46:36,800
Speaker 2: inspired me. My inspiration came from my own artistic creations

984
00:46:36,800 --> 00:46:40,440
Speaker 2: that I would make, So there wasn't any one person

985
00:46:40,440 --> 00:46:42,279
Speaker 2: that I would look at over the years. Yeah, I

986
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,839
Speaker 2: found people. It was like, oh, he does some really

987
00:46:43,840 --> 00:46:46,280
Speaker 2: cool shit. I want to see when he do similar

988
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,480
Speaker 2: sort of designs and stuff. But I didn't have anyone

989
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,000
Speaker 2: that I really like would go, oh, he's an inspirational person.

990
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 2: That's why I've done what I'm doing.

991
00:46:55,239 --> 00:46:58,040
Speaker 1: Theo's eyes because I've always I love furniture and I

992
00:46:58,080 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 1: love timber and Frank Lloyd right timber design is it

993
00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:08,240
Speaker 1: looks a bit hard and not that comfortable. But actually

994
00:47:09,480 --> 00:47:12,239
Speaker 1: I've had some pieces made over the years sort of

995
00:47:12,280 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 1: copying what he makes. And I actually bought some stuff

996
00:47:15,000 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 1: from the Frank Lloyd Wright place in Japan who has

997
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:22,560
Speaker 1: all these past word it has all his designs. Bought

998
00:47:22,640 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 1: lamps like big tool lamps and stuff like that, and

999
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 1: and I and I because I love that stuff. I

1000
00:47:31,560 --> 00:47:34,400
Speaker 1: just love. But his stuff's a bit sort of rigid.

1001
00:47:34,880 --> 00:47:37,520
Speaker 1: It is like it's a bit architectural. Maybe it's probably

1002
00:47:37,520 --> 00:47:39,719
Speaker 1: a better way of saying it's a bit not soft.

1003
00:47:39,719 --> 00:47:40,120
Speaker 2: That's right.

1004
00:47:40,480 --> 00:47:43,799
Speaker 1: It's edgy, very edgy. Yeah, yeah, And uh. And I've

1005
00:47:43,840 --> 00:47:47,320
Speaker 1: often wonder about people like you whether or not you

1006
00:47:47,600 --> 00:47:50,879
Speaker 1: sort of were a person who collected these things over

1007
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:56,640
Speaker 1: the years, because because I've collected lots of stuff on photographs,

1008
00:47:56,640 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 1: I'm talking about magazines and stuff like that, and then

1009
00:48:00,280 --> 00:48:01,400
Speaker 1: when I got to point in my life where I

1010
00:48:01,400 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 1: could afford it, I actually thought, now I'm going to

1011
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 1: get that made. And I've got friends who when they

1012
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,520
Speaker 1: went to school used to collect books on boats and

1013
00:48:09,560 --> 00:48:15,160
Speaker 1: aeroplanes and houses, and they sellect the magazines, and those

1014
00:48:15,239 --> 00:48:18,520
Speaker 1: days everyone have magazines, and then one day they became

1015
00:48:19,719 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 1: that person. I just wondered about you, whether or that

1016
00:48:22,520 --> 00:48:24,160
Speaker 1: was something you always collected as a kid.

1017
00:48:24,640 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 2: Well, I think so not really, No, Like, that's the

1018
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:34,359
Speaker 2: weird thing about the industry that I moved into. My

1019
00:48:34,400 --> 00:48:37,680
Speaker 2: whole background is in animals and conservation. That's everything I've

1020
00:48:37,680 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 2: always thrived to do. So the timber side was kind

1021
00:48:41,800 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: of a little bit of a mixture of that, with

1022
00:48:43,920 --> 00:48:47,440
Speaker 2: recycling timber and whatnot and manufacturing and then getting the

1023
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:49,719
Speaker 2: artsy sort of thing out of there. But there wasn't

1024
00:48:49,800 --> 00:48:52,880
Speaker 2: really a I wouldn't collect. The only things I collect,

1025
00:48:52,920 --> 00:48:55,919
Speaker 2: which I've collected for years is chisels. I don't know why.

1026
00:48:56,040 --> 00:48:57,919
Speaker 1: I love chisels, so they're cool.

1027
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've got a huge collection of random dew diferent

1028
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,840
Speaker 2: Australia manufactured chisels, some from like like early nineteen hundred

1029
00:49:04,840 --> 00:49:07,640
Speaker 2: sort of things. So that's one thing that yeah, I

1030
00:49:07,680 --> 00:49:10,919
Speaker 2: do collect that sort of thing. But I think that's

1031
00:49:10,960 --> 00:49:14,440
Speaker 2: just because of my love for timber and working with and.

1032
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:19,319
Speaker 1: The tools and the tools use. And just just on

1033
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:23,440
Speaker 1: the zoology piece, A lot of people know what zoologists are,

1034
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:27,600
Speaker 1: but as someone who's a study of animals, that's the

1035
00:49:27,600 --> 00:49:34,080
Speaker 1: best way of putting it. And I did you do

1036
00:49:34,120 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 1: your studies at university and zoology? So I never knew

1037
00:49:38,040 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: what a zoologist was either, but one stage there I

1038
00:49:41,800 --> 00:49:45,520
Speaker 1: now happily, luckily live in a house that was built

1039
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:50,440
Speaker 1: for a very famous Russian zoologist. And he was a

1040
00:49:50,480 --> 00:49:54,160
Speaker 1: marine biologist, but a zoologist broadly, but he's specially with

1041
00:49:54,200 --> 00:50:00,359
Speaker 1: marine biology. And his name was Nikolay maclay mclovich. Yeah,

1042
00:50:00,640 --> 00:50:04,920
Speaker 1: you know the person very famous scientists from Russia. Well

1043
00:50:04,920 --> 00:50:06,880
Speaker 1: what was it, by the way, when I say Russia,

1044
00:50:07,560 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: it's currently Ukraine, but Russia controlled this particular area in

1045
00:50:12,040 --> 00:50:15,400
Speaker 1: the nineteenth century. In the eight in sixties, seventies and

1046
00:50:15,440 --> 00:50:20,080
Speaker 1: eighties and nineties, and he he came to Australia via

1047
00:50:20,120 --> 00:50:25,040
Speaker 1: pap New Guinea and a little story to finish off

1048
00:50:25,120 --> 00:50:28,919
Speaker 1: and zoology story. And they came to say via pap

1049
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:34,200
Speaker 1: New Guinea because he had a lung disorder and he

1050
00:50:34,280 --> 00:50:36,560
Speaker 1: found that the warmer he was obviously in Russia, but

1051
00:50:36,600 --> 00:50:39,279
Speaker 1: the warmer weather was good for his health. So he

1052
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 1: came down Papun New Guinea, and in Papun New Guinea

1053
00:50:41,440 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 1: he discovered that a black person's brain is not inferior

1054
00:50:47,120 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: to a white person's brain. And he was the person

1055
00:50:49,200 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 1: who was responsible for dispelling that myth that black people

1056
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:59,399
Speaker 1: are inferior to white people intellectually. And then they named

1057
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,719
Speaker 1: a coast in pap New Guinea after he was called

1058
00:51:01,760 --> 00:51:04,160
Speaker 1: Maclay Coast. And then he went from there he came

1059
00:51:04,200 --> 00:51:08,759
Speaker 1: to Australia. And when he came to Australia, he was

1060
00:51:09,400 --> 00:51:14,160
Speaker 1: studying marine animals, particularly sharks and some fish who just

1061
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:16,479
Speaker 1: looking at their brains and doing experiments and stuff like that.

1062
00:51:17,040 --> 00:51:23,719
Speaker 1: And he was able to get a house built by

1063
00:51:23,840 --> 00:51:26,120
Speaker 1: subscription through the New South Wales government was at that

1064
00:51:26,160 --> 00:51:27,840
Speaker 1: stage we were not a federation. This is in the

1065
00:51:28,160 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 1: nineties and that house was built via subscription, so people

1066
00:51:33,120 --> 00:51:36,880
Speaker 1: put money into it. And he established the first marine

1067
00:51:36,920 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 1: biological station in the Southern Hemisphere and the only second

1068
00:51:41,440 --> 00:51:44,399
Speaker 1: one in the world. And he lived I live there

1069
00:51:44,400 --> 00:51:50,880
Speaker 1: now and in this particular he unfortunately passed away in

1070
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:55,680
Speaker 1: about eighteen ninety eight or something like that, and he

1071
00:51:55,760 --> 00:52:02,080
Speaker 1: dedicated his life to studying animals and animal brains and

1072
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:07,760
Speaker 1: animal behaviors. Crazy and right here in Australia. And the house,

1073
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,799
Speaker 1: by the way, this house was in what would be

1074
00:52:09,840 --> 00:52:13,640
Speaker 1: considered be remote then, but today it's not remote. It's

1075
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:15,920
Speaker 1: it's in Watson's Bay. But those days it was a

1076
00:52:15,920 --> 00:52:18,200
Speaker 1: long way to get from the city to Watson's Bay.

1077
00:52:18,800 --> 00:52:22,080
Speaker 1: In fact, you wouldn't never go there. You wouldn't there

1078
00:52:22,080 --> 00:52:23,719
Speaker 1: was nowhere to get there, and you weren't going together

1079
00:52:23,800 --> 00:52:25,239
Speaker 1: buy a horse and car. There was no bus or

1080
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: trains or or anything else. Cars, that's for sure. And

1081
00:52:29,160 --> 00:52:31,520
Speaker 1: that's my own exposure to a zoologists that I've ever

1082
00:52:31,520 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 1: had in my life. And I found him to be

1083
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,480
Speaker 1: that world to be quite a fascinating world. And and

1084
00:52:38,520 --> 00:52:40,760
Speaker 1: what's interesting to me is that you were in that world,

1085
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:43,600
Speaker 1: but you went from that world to another world, which

1086
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:50,680
Speaker 1: I absolutely love Timber Hardwood. Like it is between zoology,

1087
00:52:50,840 --> 00:52:55,520
Speaker 1: animal particularly animal brains, and Timber. I had no idea

1088
00:52:55,560 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: who was coming in today. You're you're You're played in

1089
00:52:58,880 --> 00:53:01,400
Speaker 1: both territories. So I respect to the fact that you've

1090
00:53:01,400 --> 00:53:04,200
Speaker 1: had to put your business liquidation. From my point of view,

1091
00:53:05,040 --> 00:53:09,080
Speaker 1: you have had, you have done something. You hung out

1092
00:53:09,120 --> 00:53:11,799
Speaker 1: in two of the best areas that I consider in

1093
00:53:11,840 --> 00:53:14,680
Speaker 1: my life. And I couldn't do either of those things.

1094
00:53:14,719 --> 00:53:16,239
Speaker 1: I couldn't do anything of the zology and I've got

1095
00:53:16,280 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 1: absolutely zero skiol when it comes to designing and or making.

1096
00:53:21,120 --> 00:53:24,200
Speaker 1: So well done, Thank you, and I wanted to leave

1097
00:53:24,239 --> 00:53:27,680
Speaker 1: you that. Yeah, well done. Congratulations. Sorry to hear their

1098
00:53:27,760 --> 00:53:31,040
Speaker 1: business and liquidation, but big deal. That's right, well done,

1099
00:53:31,280 --> 00:53:32,480
Speaker 1: well and congratulations.

1100
00:53:32,560 --> 00:53:33,239
Speaker 2: Thank you so much.

1101
00:53:33,360 --> 00:53:34,120
Speaker 1: Two great careers.

1102
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's amazing, and I'm still moving back into the

1103
00:53:37,480 --> 00:53:39,239
Speaker 2: zoology stuff now where I'm going.

1104
00:53:39,160 --> 00:53:41,959
Speaker 1: There, Hang in there and don't let the bases grind

1105
00:53:42,000 --> 00:53:42,279
Speaker 1: you down.

1106
00:53:42,360 --> 00:53:44,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it. Thank you very much. Thanks for having mate,

1107
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:45,600
Speaker 2: really appreciate it.