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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now, as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back to part two of my chat with former

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Speaker 1: SAS operative who goes by the nickname of Horse. If

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Speaker 1: you listen to part one, we spoke about horses time

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Speaker 1: in the SAS and his involvement in the Afghanistan War.

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Speaker 1: It was a pretty heavy discussion, even for this podcast.

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Speaker 1: In part two, Horse talks about his life post military.

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Speaker 1: If you thought he had a quiet life after he

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Speaker 1: left the SAS, you were mistaken. We talk about his

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Speaker 1: time in Africa working with anti poaching units. He's working

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Speaker 1: the Ukraine providing security for volunteer doctors close to the

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Speaker 1: front line. He's worked with law enforcement agencies here and abroad.

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Speaker 1: We also talked about the findings from the Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: into Defense Veteran Suicide and his own battles with PTSD.

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Speaker 1: I can't believe the things Horses done. Haven't listened to

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Speaker 1: part two of my chat with him. Horse, welcome back

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Speaker 1: to I catch killers.

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Speaker 2: Have a nice little walk with the dogs.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the dogs did their exercise. They seem to be

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Speaker 1: sleeping now, so they've got it out. They've had their

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Speaker 1: little rumble in the park, which it was good. Spike

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Speaker 1: needs the exercise. We left part one. We're talking about

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Speaker 1: your time in Afghanistan and your service. When you finally

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Speaker 1: decided to get out of the military. What brought that on?

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Speaker 2: Uh?

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Speaker 3: I started to get tired. I had double hit replacement

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Speaker 3: that took the wind out of the sales a bit.

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Speaker 3: You know, I was a patrol command of it. I

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Speaker 3: felt myself getting a little bit stale and and with

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Speaker 3: that impact there, I thought maybe it's time to leave

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Speaker 3: on a high note. As you don't want to be

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Speaker 3: one of those those old, crusty guys that are bitter

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Speaker 3: and twisted and just a dinosaur that's hanging around getting

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Speaker 3: everyone's way. Yeah, so I thought I'll leave on a

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Speaker 3: high note, and I went to the UAE doing that

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Speaker 3: contract for their Special Operations Command under Mike home Marsh

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Speaker 3: as a trainer.

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Speaker 1: When you left, did you you feel like you've left

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Speaker 1: your tribe? Was it confronting for you? You've been such

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Speaker 1: an intense period of time in your life.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and so that that was really Yeah, it's

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Speaker 3: quite a big day and going. I think it was

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Speaker 3: a soft landing though, because there was a lot of

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Speaker 3: guys in the UAE that I already I knew, and

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Speaker 3: so it was a similar tribe, and so what I

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Speaker 3: call a soft landing. But I think the significance of

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Speaker 3: it really eluded me for many years. And even when

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Speaker 3: I left left the UAE, my life sort of went

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Speaker 3: down spiral, took a downward spiral, and it was just

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Speaker 3: this imperceptible slippery slope.

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Speaker 2: That I don't know.

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Speaker 3: It's okay, I won't go train, I won't do that,

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Speaker 3: and then next thing, next thing you know, you're you're

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Speaker 3: sitting in the gutter.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well we'll I want to talk about that. I'm

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Speaker 1: sorry bringing it up, but we'll talk about.

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Speaker 3: I'm okay to speak about And I think it's important

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Speaker 3: to let people know that somebody that's been at the

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Speaker 3: tip of the spear that can happen to them, so

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Speaker 3: it can happen to anyone.

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Speaker 1: I think that's an important message before we talk about

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Speaker 1: the mental well Buron and emotional well Beuron just two

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Speaker 1: hip replacements. Something that I don't think people appreciate too.

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Speaker 1: The life of a soldier, as in an infantry or

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Speaker 1: a special Forces operator, takes its toll physically on the body.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, So you're doing a lot of kilometers

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Speaker 3: carrying some silly things and I have no regrets. Make

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Speaker 3: sure everyone knows that this is and I'll do it

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Speaker 3: all again. The only only regret I've got is one

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Speaker 3: of those movies. I didn't lead them enough. But joking maybe, yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: it's quite intense. And we've had the Australian Institute of

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Speaker 3: Sport come over and have a look at us, and

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Speaker 3: so you know, you're expected to be dynamic and go

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Speaker 3: over walls carrying heavy loads. You've got to sprint and

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Speaker 3: then you've got to have calm yourself down and find

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Speaker 3: motor skills to take those shots as well as complex

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Speaker 3: or decision making and in complex environments. And so having

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Speaker 3: that smarts and level headedness and peak in state management plus.

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Speaker 2: Then you've got to be expected to walk.

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Speaker 3: Ten kilometers into the target and ten kilometers out under

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Speaker 3: night vision goggles over uneven ground.

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Speaker 2: I'm looking for threats all And.

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Speaker 1: What sort of way do we carry when you're doing

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Speaker 1: this with you armor and your weapons and.

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Speaker 2: Easy thirty kilos?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, so once you're start to get live ammo

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Speaker 3: in there, so you know, bombs and comms, fit some water,

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Speaker 3: a little bit of food, a little bit extra for him, helmets,

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Speaker 3: body armor, pistol on air, some grenades, you've med kit.

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Speaker 3: A combat load really does add up.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and for anyone that doesn't really appreciate it, put

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Speaker 1: a thy kilo weightest. This is what you're getting around

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Speaker 1: and moving dynamic as you said, and throwing yourself on

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Speaker 1: the ground and jumping over things, and it has to

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Speaker 1: take its till.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it does.

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Speaker 3: And you know, like there's some guys that are lucky

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Speaker 3: and everybody just sort of eats it up.

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Speaker 2: There's others that.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, we just you just wear out, And I actually did.

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Speaker 3: I took yoga up when I was doing the wrestling.

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Speaker 3: That kind of kept that up throughout my military career,

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Speaker 3: and I think that kept me on playing kept me

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Speaker 3: on the playing field a lot longer than I normally

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Speaker 3: would have. I think my career would have finished a

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Speaker 3: bit sooner. And so that that ying and the yang,

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Speaker 3: that balancing sort of helped help me keep keep going.

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Speaker 1: Interesting. Okay, so what what year did you leave the military?

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Speaker 2: End of twenty fifteen?

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Speaker 1: Okay, and you did some work over in the UAE,

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Speaker 1: and that that was a soft landing in that you've

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Speaker 1: gone from an environment you knew very well into the

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Speaker 1: environment where you knew people. And I would imagine part

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Speaker 1: of it is that your reputation was intact too. They

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Speaker 1: knew your skill level, and it's not like you went

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Speaker 1: from at the tip of the spear and the Tier

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Speaker 1: one Special Forces to an area where no one even

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Speaker 1: appreciated the skill set that you had. But going to

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Speaker 1: the UAE would have allowed you to still demonstrate those skills.

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Speaker 1: Am I reading it right? Yeah?

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Speaker 2: And it's a similar environment, yeah, just training different people.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, Okay, you talked about the spiral. What happened there.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think I put my dog down in

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Speaker 3: my working dog. I took him over with me in

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Speaker 3: early twenty seventeen. He was just shy at fifteen, so good.

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Speaker 2: Oh boy.

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Speaker 3: And I've got out of there, and then moved to

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Speaker 3: Europe to be closer to my daughter in Sweden, and

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Speaker 3: I wasn't getting to see you, along with a bit

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Speaker 3: of chronic pain from injuries and stuff like that and

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Speaker 3: the isolation, and then yeah, started started to smoke a

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Speaker 3: little bit of mess and then a little bit more.

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Speaker 1: That's not good.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.

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Speaker 3: And so I was just checking out basically, and then yeah,

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Speaker 3: I ended up doing a bit of an overnighter in

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Speaker 3: jail over.

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Speaker 4: There overseas, and that was in the early twenty twenty.

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Speaker 4: So sitting there going because I didn't how I end

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Speaker 4: up here, and then I was sort of, well, I

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Speaker 4: chose this, and so it was time to get my

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Speaker 4: life back.

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Speaker 3: Together, and so I had to leave Sweden. I was

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Speaker 3: trying to be a father to my daughter, but I

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Speaker 3: just became how was she at the time, So yeah,

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Speaker 3: she's eight, yeah, fourteen.

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Speaker 1: So you're ticking off all the all the factors that

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Speaker 1: could come into play.

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Speaker 3: Isolated, isolated, different, different culture, and a career, injuries, injuries.

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Speaker 1: Putting the dog down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, just a spiral and you just don't

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Speaker 3: don't recognize it. I'm over there to Seva with my daughter.

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Speaker 3: I'm not getting to see her. I'm applying for jobs,

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Speaker 3: defense jobs with SAAB and everything that I just couldn't

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Speaker 3: get work, wasn't getting any replies and just gradually checked out.

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Speaker 3: But I was working with autistic kids, which was a highlight.

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Speaker 3: And then in between times I would pick up some

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Speaker 3: work in Africa.

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Speaker 1: What skill set did you bring with autistic kids?

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Speaker 2: What was that?

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Speaker 1: How did you get involved in that?

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Speaker 3: So when you think about it, all of the training

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Speaker 3: of people that I'd done with the military and adult training,

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Speaker 3: all of the principles applied across the board to kids

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Speaker 3: and the autistic kids. And I think I brought my

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Speaker 3: experiences from my childhood and how I was treated because

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Speaker 3: I was a bit different and these kids are just

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Speaker 3: a bit different, and so that's that's what i' brought

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Speaker 3: with it. And also I was offering a strong male

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Speaker 3: role model, and so there was also we were just

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Speaker 3: part of a larger school. The autistic space. And so

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Speaker 3: I saw a lot of the young fellas gravitating towards

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Speaker 3: me as.

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Speaker 2: Well, because they're told that this is terrible, this.

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Speaker 3: Is a bad it's toxic masculinity, where this is just

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Speaker 3: being a man and getting out there after it. You

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Speaker 3: saw the achievements, and I think that there's nothing bad

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Speaker 3: in there. Society is telling them that they can't be that,

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Speaker 3: and I think it resonated with those young boys into

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Speaker 3: they would gravitate towards me and actually taking that step

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Speaker 3: back and watching them do dumb things.

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Speaker 2: Oh, we're being watched to go now, I keep going.

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Speaker 3: Fellows, We're going till somebody hurts themselves, because why would

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Speaker 3: you stop.

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Speaker 2: You know, it's all fun and games, and it is what.

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Speaker 1: Brought you to that level where you're going to start

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Speaker 1: smoking some mice.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly, So just checking out. It was escape, was

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Speaker 2: escaping Yep, Yeah, I.

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Speaker 3: Was just checking out. So obviously there's a bit of

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Speaker 3: chronic paint everything and and that is all chronic stress,

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Speaker 3: and so each one of them on their ore. Okay,

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Speaker 3: so what's the analogy I use this code is you've

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Speaker 3: got a backpack and there's a rock of stress and

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Speaker 3: there's another rock of stress, and even just a couffle,

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Speaker 3: you can't carry that forever. It just keeps on grinding

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Speaker 3: you down. And then you put another one, another one,

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Speaker 3: another one. It just grinds you down and you don't

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Speaker 3: even realize it. And yeah, I just started checking out

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Speaker 3: and then obviously I got myself into spot of bottle.

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Speaker 1: You're hitting a low point, low point there. How did

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Speaker 1: you reconcile with yourself that you're going to turn this

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Speaker 1: around or you didn't care or what the hell?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So I guess we all have our different low point,

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Speaker 3: and mine. I was probably fortunate that I still had

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Speaker 3: the capacity to come back to Australia, but that is

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Speaker 3: my low point to some others are lower than others.

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Speaker 3: And so I got a scholarship, came for the NBA

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Speaker 3: and came back to Australia and that was when COVID

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Speaker 3: kicked in. So came back and did the NBA. It

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Speaker 3: sort of helped straighten me out. But there's still been

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Speaker 3: a struggle ongoing for quite some time. And so you

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Speaker 3: get on it off again, on and off again, and.

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Speaker 1: You can see it coming now, but you can identify

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Speaker 1: if you are spiraling or slipping down.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so.

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Speaker 3: I've recently had ankle fusion, now, second one, because the

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Speaker 3: first one I stuffed up was all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: disabled and then yeah, got on it again and stuffed

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Speaker 3: the whole surgery up. Yeah hard. Yeah, yeah, I really

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Speaker 3: really need to learn it properly. And so I've had

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Speaker 3: the second one and see that that that incapacity was

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Speaker 3: was also a big factor. And the pain and and

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Speaker 3: what led me down the pace of psychedelics.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about that. Yeah, because you've recently tried

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Speaker 1: that over in Mexico.

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Speaker 3: Yes, so really really interesting. That puts you into this

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Speaker 3: other space. And so I went to you got to

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Speaker 3: go to Mexico. It's illegal here, it's illegal in the States.

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Speaker 3: So you went over to San Diego and the teller Jake,

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Speaker 3: they're smuggling an Australian into Mexico, taking across the border

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Speaker 3: and yeah, five days do a Mexican like.

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Speaker 2: A sweat lodge.

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Speaker 3: Sweat lodge, which is extremely unpleasant. You learned to lean

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Speaker 3: into the problems, so you're not taking any medicines in that,

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Speaker 3: leaning into it and go, Okay, that that put me

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Speaker 3: into I'm always checking out. And then gratitude for what

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Speaker 3: your family did do, not what they didn't do. So

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Speaker 3: they got a couple of good things out of that.

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Speaker 3: It's not pleasant at all, and so I don't know

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Speaker 3: why it's illegal. It's it was not the type of thing,

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Speaker 3: but no, very unpleasant. Basically, I got confronted with just

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Speaker 3: all of that dumb stuff that I've been doing.

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Speaker 2: And you know, whenever you're being a.

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Speaker 3: Bad person or non drugs for twenty hours, so it

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Speaker 3: just played that.

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Speaker 1: It opens your mind up to all the traumas, all

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Speaker 1: the bad ship just coming.

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Speaker 3: Yep, and just played that over and over again. And

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Speaker 3: the thing is, we don't realize that we're functioning like

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Speaker 3: that because it's just normal to us, and we think, oh,

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Speaker 3: we're being normal. You walk into a room and people

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Speaker 3: look at your weird and.

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Speaker 2: Relate.

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Speaker 1: I can relate to it. I think I've spoken about it,

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Speaker 1: but it's I always know that I'm not quite right.

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Speaker 1: When I've been and you might be out on the

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Speaker 1: job for days or whatever. You come home and you're

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Speaker 1: totally wide. You've been making decisions as in, bang, I

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Speaker 1: need this done, I need that done, and wide like that.

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Speaker 1: Then you come home to a social environment or any environment,

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Speaker 1: and everyone seems to be at a different pace. And

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Speaker 1: I had enough. I worked out over the years that

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Speaker 1: they're not allowed the step, it's me out of step.

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Speaker 1: And then so that take myself away from it. And

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Speaker 1: you talked about yoga. I did meditation years ago, very

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Speaker 1: early when I got in the cops, and I didn't understand.

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Speaker 1: I was just drawn to it like a thing called chigoo,

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Speaker 1: drawn to it. Didn't really get the benefits from it

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Speaker 1: in the early years, but it's been a fallback position

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Speaker 1: that I can go to when I do find myself spirally,

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Speaker 1: that I can just take myself away and slow things down.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, meditations really really does help people growing up on

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Speaker 3: the streets. They're at that heightened level all the time,

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Speaker 3: the whole time, the whole time, and especially trauma traumatized

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Speaker 3: as children, and so you're functioning like that, reacting. You're

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Speaker 3: not you're not playing things out like sorting things out

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Speaker 3: in your brain. You're just they're just a dog eat

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Speaker 3: dog kind of mentality. And then then that just gets

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Speaker 3: a flow on and that's how they live. And so

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Speaker 3: this will allow for recidivism or anybody. So you don't

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Speaker 3: have to be a proper or any first responders or courses.

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Speaker 3: He's got application for kids that have had traumatic childhoods

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Speaker 3: and or even anybody that's suffered from violence, will help

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Speaker 3: them lower that and give them a bit more space

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Speaker 3: to take stock of their their life, will make better

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Speaker 3: decisions on the spot.

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Speaker 1: Playing in fear, well, I think anyone listening to the

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Speaker 1: podcast and we'll have a look at it and get

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Speaker 1: get it out there. But the chaos you for the

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Speaker 1: cause if you didn't get yourself.

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Speaker 3: So, yeah, well I was going to die, There's no

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Speaker 3: two ways about it. And so that was where it's

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Speaker 3: going to end.

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Speaker 1: And so misadventure or die by your own.

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Speaker 3: And well I didn't have any suicidal ideation really, but

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Speaker 3: you know, miss misadventure or just shorten your life significantly

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Speaker 3: and just done stuff. And then you know, and I

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Speaker 3: guess you know, even if you're just living in that

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Speaker 3: that space that yourself is killing yourself, you know, because

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Speaker 3: you have a look at what I have achieved and

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Speaker 3: then what I was becoming. That's that's a death metaphorically speaking.

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Speaker 1: I guess, yeah, I understand what you're saying.

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Speaker 3: And I'm feeling better every day, still improving, improving, and

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Speaker 3: so I'm going to start to say no to things.

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Speaker 3: So opportunities like this, there's other opportunities also presenting themselves

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Speaker 3: that things are just really happening for me.

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Speaker 1: Now, I think that is part of self preservation too.

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Speaker 1: You've got to say no to some things because sometimes

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Speaker 1: you can dig yourself into a hole by keeping yourself

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Speaker 1: too busy and you don't work on yourself. That's something

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Speaker 1: to be mindful of, can we. It sort of leads

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Speaker 1: well into the Royal Commission in the Defense and veteran suicide. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: what we're talking about talking about here. That was a

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Speaker 1: Royal commission that ran over the last couple of years,

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Speaker 1: and I think on the back of that Royal Commission

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Speaker 1: there was one hundred and two recommend one hundred and

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Speaker 1: twenty two recommendations that came out. I know you've had

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Speaker 1: a look at that and you're curious about it. What's

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Speaker 1: your takeaway from what we learned from the Royal Commission.

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Speaker 3: I think there's no surprises there, and there's a lot

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Speaker 3: of people in defense have experienced all of this to

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Speaker 3: one degree or another. What led me down that passway

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Speaker 3: was the film. All the issues that we raise pretty

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Speaker 3: much encapsulates all of your findings, and I think there's

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Speaker 3: with the film, we could really capitalize on that and

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Speaker 3: bring it to the fort. And that's I guess that's

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Speaker 3: how we became connected as well, because I started chatting

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Speaker 3: to Simon who knows you, and there's this correlation here

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Speaker 3: with everything and with my issues as well. I'm one

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Speaker 3: of the lucky ones because I'm still alive and coming

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Speaker 3: out the other side.

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Speaker 2: We've got a lot of people who who got.

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Speaker 3: One made who's killed himself as a result of the

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Speaker 3: investigations and has put through the ring and he've been

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Speaker 3: and a flat's.

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Speaker 2: Been out to sea and never recovered.

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Speaker 3: And so how many are there and living even if

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Speaker 3: they're not killing themselves, they just living a lesser life

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Speaker 3: than they could.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's sad to see someone that's been living

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Speaker 1: a good life and all of a sudden just let

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Speaker 1: it destroy themsel.

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Speaker 3: And so with that, I was sort of looking, Okay,

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Speaker 3: what came We can be done and I don't have

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Speaker 3: any answers.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you go through basic training, they break you down,

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Speaker 1: then teach you to be a soldier, and then when

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Speaker 1: you leave the military, they don't invest as much time

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Speaker 1: making you be a civilian like as in leaving. I

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Speaker 1: think is there a space there to make the transition easier.

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Speaker 2: One hundred percent.

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Speaker 3: I think that was one of the recommendations, is that

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Speaker 3: third party and the independent body to monitor that, because

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Speaker 3: it's I think they're just ticking boxes on the transition. So,

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Speaker 3: as you said before, I've got a private pilot's license,

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Speaker 3: which I did while I was in the military and

370
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Speaker 3: I was investigating, Well how about help me get a

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Speaker 3: professional pilot's license, and then I got a career. I've

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Speaker 3: already got the runs on the board, so to speak.

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Speaker 3: To Shan an interest, but there was there was nothing,

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Speaker 3: no interest in that. So that transition is really just

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Speaker 3: box ticking, and I found it more frustrating than beneficial.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, well, the transition, I think so much more could

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Speaker 1: be done because, yeah, the saying in the police is

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Speaker 1: nothing more excellent than accent, and you feel it you've

379
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Speaker 1: left your tribe. Yeah, that's the people that you could

380
00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,160
Speaker 1: relate to, the people that respected you, and you're left.

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Speaker 1: And the same with the military. But for all the

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Speaker 1: building up to make you a useful soldier or a

383
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Speaker 1: useful cop, and then at the end of it, it's

384
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Speaker 1: just see you and march out. And that's the end

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Speaker 1: of you're policing or army crew.

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Speaker 3: And it's a unique of factors of the service which

387
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Speaker 3: you've identified. You leave all yourself at the door, and

388
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Speaker 3: then you just totally invest yourself in the old army recruiting.

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Speaker 3: It's more than just a job. It's a life and

390
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Speaker 3: it is and we see in the film the families

391
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Speaker 3: are all part of that, and you're just that's your

392
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Speaker 3: whole network, in your whole group. And then to be

393
00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:07,040
Speaker 3: taken out of that, well, we know from we evolved

394
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Speaker 3: from hunter gatherer tribes and so when you're kicked out

395
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Speaker 3: of the tribe or removed from the tribe, that's a

396
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Speaker 3: death sentence. And so that really needs to be nurtured

397
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Speaker 3: and managed a lot better than what we are doing.

398
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Speaker 3: And we know the effects of all of that, and

399
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Speaker 3: we've seen it time and time again, and you've got

400
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Speaker 3: all the findings of the Royal Commission.

401
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Speaker 2: It's okay, so what yeah, yeah.

402
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Speaker 1: Well it's about doing stuff and leadership. I know people

403
00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:37,879
Speaker 1: would say you spent so long in homicide, how did

404
00:22:37,920 --> 00:22:41,119
Speaker 1: you survive? And it wasn't going to the homicides that

405
00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 1: caused me drama. It wasn't the horrific scenes or chasing

406
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,359
Speaker 1: the crooks. It was leadership that caused me more frustration

407
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Speaker 1: than anything in the place. And I get the sense

408
00:22:52,680 --> 00:22:59,920
Speaker 1: speaking and speaking to military guys, there's a lot of similarities.

409
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Speaker 3: There, one hundred percent. And it's that administrative violence. I

410
00:23:03,200 --> 00:23:05,680
Speaker 3: think you've see term that you coined and we've all

411
00:23:05,720 --> 00:23:08,879
Speaker 3: experienced it, and we see different interpretation of the rules

412
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Speaker 3: and just using it against people that basically the hierarchy

413
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:18,760
Speaker 3: are responsible. And once again, you get into the defense

414
00:23:18,840 --> 00:23:21,400
Speaker 3: force and then you have this trust in the system

415
00:23:21,440 --> 00:23:27,679
Speaker 3: and you hand over all responsibility to the hierarchy for

416
00:23:27,800 --> 00:23:31,000
Speaker 3: your destiny a lot of the time and they have

417
00:23:31,680 --> 00:23:35,880
Speaker 3: a really unique responsibility. Or there's that duty of care,

418
00:23:35,960 --> 00:23:39,160
Speaker 3: and that duty of care is not being exercised by them.

419
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Speaker 3: We see with our case, with your case, you just oh,

420
00:23:45,240 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 3: you get thrown under the bus and then sat off

421
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Speaker 3: to the side and isolated and they don't give a shit.

422
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Speaker 1: Well, I suppose, like with my case, I'm getting judged

423
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Speaker 1: on how I investigated the ducts and the suspected murder

424
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Speaker 1: of a three year old child that we still haven't found. Yeah,

425
00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:07,880
Speaker 1: what what do people want me to do when I'm

426
00:24:08,080 --> 00:24:10,480
Speaker 1: investigating that just walk up to people and say hey,

427
00:24:10,520 --> 00:24:13,360
Speaker 1: have you done this and they say no and move

428
00:24:13,400 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 1: on like That's what frustrated me. Everything that I did

429
00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,040
Speaker 1: in the investigation support the support of the above, but

430
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:25,720
Speaker 1: when it blows up and there's some complaints or allegations,

431
00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:29,879
Speaker 1: that's everyone just distanced themselves. And I thought leadership was

432
00:24:29,960 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: about you know, I led in the in the police,

433
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Speaker 1: and I'd like to think that I tried to be

434
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Speaker 1: the best leader I could. But I would look out

435
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:39,760
Speaker 1: for people under my command.

436
00:24:40,080 --> 00:24:43,720
Speaker 2: Those you're responsible for, yeah, yeah.

437
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Speaker 1: And I would accept if they're mistakes. I would often

438
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:51,120
Speaker 1: say to people, but yeah, if you if you make

439
00:24:51,160 --> 00:24:53,639
Speaker 1: a genuine mistake, I'm going to support you one hundred percent.

440
00:24:53,920 --> 00:24:56,040
Speaker 1: Do it out of laziness and the support's not going

441
00:24:56,080 --> 00:24:59,240
Speaker 1: to be there. And that was the way I worked by.

442
00:24:59,320 --> 00:25:02,159
Speaker 1: But leadership in the army seemed to be lacking. And

443
00:25:02,280 --> 00:25:06,200
Speaker 1: what you guys went through with the allegations of special forces,

444
00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,399
Speaker 1: I would have thought there would be more people standing

445
00:25:09,520 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: up support thing you within the military.

446
00:25:12,840 --> 00:25:16,360
Speaker 3: You know, once again, we had amazing leaders within now too.

447
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:20,400
Speaker 3: Burns he's one of them. He's in the in our

448
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 3: film mass On Weeks. You are amazing leaders they seem

449
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 3: to get marginalized and then they end up just having

450
00:25:28,560 --> 00:25:31,840
Speaker 3: enough and leaving as well. And so yeah, you would

451
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 3: think that the leadership have got this special forces unit

452
00:25:35,840 --> 00:25:39,160
Speaker 3: that is doing amazing things and as I said, we're

453
00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:43,600
Speaker 3: winning every fight and giving them every chance of success,

454
00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:47,600
Speaker 3: that you would want to ride the coattails of that

455
00:25:47,760 --> 00:25:50,520
Speaker 3: instead of extinguishing it. I guess there's some sort of

456
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:55,080
Speaker 3: narcissistic stuff going on there which you would have experienced,

457
00:25:55,440 --> 00:26:00,959
Speaker 3: and just poor examples of leadership. And so when there

458
00:26:01,080 --> 00:26:04,480
Speaker 3: is rumors of something going wrong and they just kick

459
00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 3: you to the curb and actually put a blanket allegation

460
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:11,240
Speaker 3: perception on everybody.

461
00:26:11,280 --> 00:26:11,359
Speaker 1: And.

462
00:26:13,680 --> 00:26:16,320
Speaker 3: It doesn't really make sense because at the end of

463
00:26:16,359 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 3: the day, they are responsible for everything that goes on

464
00:26:20,080 --> 00:26:23,320
Speaker 3: under their command, so to pick and choose, you don't

465
00:26:23,320 --> 00:26:27,720
Speaker 3: get that choice. So when I was patrol commander, everything

466
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,679
Speaker 3: good that happened within the patrol was well under patrol,

467
00:26:30,680 --> 00:26:33,200
Speaker 3: and anything bad it was like, well that's on me.

468
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:38,399
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's that's leadership. I get the sense, and this

469
00:26:38,520 --> 00:26:41,440
Speaker 1: is me looking from the outside, no internal knowledge, but

470
00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,400
Speaker 1: I get the sense from what you guys went through.

471
00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:48,159
Speaker 1: If there were no allegations or nothing blew up the

472
00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:51,399
Speaker 1: very people with are now distancing self themselves from you.

473
00:26:51,600 --> 00:26:54,800
Speaker 1: Would have been standing there beside you, all proud and

474
00:26:54,880 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 1: giving themselves pats on the back and look what we did.

475
00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:03,000
Speaker 1: But because there was alligation, they distance themselves and yeah,

476
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,840
Speaker 1: if they are leaders, they know what's going on underneath.

477
00:27:06,240 --> 00:27:10,040
Speaker 3: Well they they were happy to take themselves medals for

478
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:11,240
Speaker 3: everything that have it there.

479
00:27:11,680 --> 00:27:15,040
Speaker 1: I think there was a parliamentary inquiry into it all

480
00:27:15,119 --> 00:27:19,800
Speaker 1: question times in Parliament and there was a politician I

481
00:27:19,840 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: think it was David Chewbridge that asked the question of yeah,

482
00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:30,399
Speaker 1: senior military figure, well you've got the medals for their deployment.

483
00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:36,439
Speaker 1: Should you give the metal medals back? And no, are

484
00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,560
Speaker 1: you responsible for what's happened over there? No, I wasn't.

485
00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,280
Speaker 1: I wasn't responsible because I didn't have control. Or therefore

486
00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:46,399
Speaker 1: why are you wearing the medals? And yeah, that's not

487
00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:48,880
Speaker 1: the verbatim, but that was the gist of the line

488
00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:49,680
Speaker 1: line of question.

489
00:27:50,080 --> 00:27:53,959
Speaker 3: That makes sense and it really encapsulates everything you've been

490
00:27:54,000 --> 00:27:56,960
Speaker 3: talking about. Yeah, I'll take I'll take the good times

491
00:27:57,000 --> 00:28:00,920
Speaker 3: and then the bad times are not more responsive distances.

492
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:09,320
Speaker 1: We jump past the wildlife protection over in Africa. Tell

493
00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:09,959
Speaker 1: us about that.

494
00:28:10,480 --> 00:28:15,160
Speaker 2: So I'm working with a company called Malavora Systems.

495
00:28:16,280 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 3: It's a veteran run organization. He's extra strain and military

496
00:28:21,920 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 3: as well. He lives over there, and what we do

497
00:28:25,400 --> 00:28:30,760
Speaker 3: is mentor local wildlife arrangers and so we'll go over

498
00:28:30,800 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 3: there and run training for them, and I run a

499
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 3: lot of mission planning, appreciation and so recently I was

500
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,120
Speaker 3: in South Sudan and so in seven weeks I had

501
00:28:43,160 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 3: them from give them a warning order. Okay, this is

502
00:28:46,240 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 3: what we got out on the ground. These are the issues,

503
00:28:49,280 --> 00:28:52,680
Speaker 3: and then they would do an appreciation process, course of action, development,

504
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,320
Speaker 3: brief me back, choose a course of action that's appropriate.

505
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:00,560
Speaker 3: They go and right the orders to for the orders

506
00:29:00,560 --> 00:29:00,960
Speaker 3: and run a.

507
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: Mission okay, and like poaching, this is tell us about

508
00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: the environment because this is hardcore.

509
00:29:09,360 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah.

510
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:11,560
Speaker 3: So it's some of the most special force of stuff

511
00:29:11,600 --> 00:29:14,840
Speaker 3: we've done because you're you're out there living in the

512
00:29:14,880 --> 00:29:18,560
Speaker 3: park with these guys running. Essentially it's a it's almost

513
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:23,280
Speaker 3: a paramilitary unit against these guys who are out there

514
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 3: poaching bush meat obviously rhinos and elephant horns to get

515
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,000
Speaker 3: get money back. So some of them are just doing

516
00:29:34,000 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 3: it for survival. But obviously you've got the international factors

517
00:29:39,240 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 3: coming in and paying them big money, and so of

518
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 3: course when you're subsistence, you're going to go for it.

519
00:29:45,120 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 3: So there is that humanitarian issue that you've got. I

520
00:29:49,520 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 3: can't blame these guys. We've still got to break the

521
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:53,400
Speaker 3: back on.

522
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: This violent environment.

523
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, it is definitely violent environment. So you have everybody

524
00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:02,840
Speaker 3: is carrying guns, which which I'm quite comfortable with. Going

525
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,560
Speaker 3: out there and being able to de escalate the situation

526
00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:09,400
Speaker 3: is some of the most rewarding times I've had.

527
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:10,960
Speaker 1: You got an example.

528
00:30:11,960 --> 00:30:16,400
Speaker 3: Well, yeah, so even like just recently, we've got warring

529
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 3: tribes within South Sudan and everybody's scared of these they

530
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:24,640
Speaker 3: called Muralley and they've got a really bad reputation or

531
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 3: they live off the land and they just carry guns

532
00:30:27,040 --> 00:30:30,720
Speaker 3: as much guns an ammo as they can. They're in

533
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 3: the neighborhood and actually in our park near the headquarters,

534
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:37,640
Speaker 3: and we get the guns out, everybody get up ready

535
00:30:37,680 --> 00:30:41,800
Speaker 3: for to defend. Hang on a second, let's let's go

536
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 3: and chat to them. So one of the young one

537
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:49,200
Speaker 3: of the locals that we had working for us, I

538
00:30:49,400 --> 00:30:52,959
Speaker 3: put our guns down and went out, went their hands up.

539
00:30:53,120 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 3: They're all pointing guns at us. It's not exactly comfortable,

540
00:30:56,160 --> 00:30:58,640
Speaker 3: and you sort of think of those safety seers aren't

541
00:30:58,680 --> 00:31:02,720
Speaker 3: really affective on old bit of kit, and that that

542
00:31:02,800 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 3: itchy trigger is actually if the fingers on on the trigger.

543
00:31:07,200 --> 00:31:10,000
Speaker 3: But you know, their leader had his gun slung, and

544
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:12,440
Speaker 3: so we were able to have that conversation, you know

545
00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 3: who we are, you know who you are, You're welcome here.

546
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 3: There's come and take water, there be no fighting on

547
00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,000
Speaker 3: our lands, and you know, we're able to have that

548
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:26,600
Speaker 3: conversation and everything just de escalated, and they were really

549
00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:30,080
Speaker 3: happy with it because they're all used to just shooting

550
00:31:30,160 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: first and asked questions later. It's like gang bangers basically,

551
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,840
Speaker 3: and so having been able to just actually do that

552
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:42,240
Speaker 3: was so rewarding. And then that's the first step getting

553
00:31:42,240 --> 00:31:44,640
Speaker 3: a bit of a flow on and established and that

554
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 3: credibility for you being in our area where you know,

555
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 3: they live off the land, and now we're telling them

556
00:31:50,680 --> 00:31:53,479
Speaker 3: no hunting here, so we've got to have a bit

557
00:31:53,520 --> 00:31:56,239
Speaker 3: of give back. And then we ended up doing some

558
00:31:56,320 --> 00:32:02,680
Speaker 3: medical clinics in the villages and engaging locals and actually

559
00:32:02,680 --> 00:32:07,600
Speaker 3: got to built repair some wells which then some of

560
00:32:07,640 --> 00:32:10,760
Speaker 3: the ng O people who were responsible for all that got.

561
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 2: Pissed off at me because that.

562
00:32:12,640 --> 00:32:14,920
Speaker 3: Was their job and I'm out en gring the ng O.

563
00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,479
Speaker 3: So that's that perception, what do we need them here?

564
00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:18,840
Speaker 3: Were spending too much money and.

565
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:21,720
Speaker 1: They're referring to you like merks basically coming in.

566
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:23,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, that was how they saw us.

567
00:32:23,880 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 3: Then we started, I was using my guys of the

568
00:32:28,920 --> 00:32:32,640
Speaker 3: rangers for these tasks and work because we teach them

569
00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:35,880
Speaker 3: first aid and so we're engaging with the communities and

570
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:38,560
Speaker 3: providing first aid and a little bit of protection to them,

571
00:32:38,600 --> 00:32:41,040
Speaker 3: and so we're getting the locals on board. So that

572
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: that was some of the most rewarding things I've done.

573
00:32:44,120 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 2: Would for many years.

574
00:32:45,440 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 1: I would imagine it would be rewarding, like it's worthwhile

575
00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 1: service in a war zone, like when you're deployed to

576
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,560
Speaker 1: Afghanistan and you're doing you know, you're doing the work

577
00:32:56,640 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 1: ars of you by the government. I would imagine going

578
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: from that environment and then doing something like wildlife because

579
00:33:04,920 --> 00:33:07,880
Speaker 1: it's basically about wildlife protection, but you've opened it up

580
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:10,040
Speaker 1: even more if you're helping villages and a little bit

581
00:33:10,040 --> 00:33:13,480
Speaker 1: of medical and water systems and different things. That must

582
00:33:13,520 --> 00:33:16,520
Speaker 1: give you a real balance out. You said mentioned the

583
00:33:16,600 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: ying and Yang wars. People are going to die and war.

584
00:33:19,600 --> 00:33:22,320
Speaker 1: That's a business of war. But doing something like that,

585
00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: did you find that was good for yourself?

586
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:29,560
Speaker 3: Well, when I come back from doing that people, I'm like,

587
00:33:29,640 --> 00:33:32,360
Speaker 3: I am, Now it's just wholesome and that's maybe that's

588
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:35,240
Speaker 3: where I belong to doing that stuff. And so yeah,

589
00:33:35,280 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 3: you feel good and being able to So I've got

590
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:44,520
Speaker 3: the martial skills to back it up because I've been

591
00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,600
Speaker 3: downrange and seen war. We don't want that and having

592
00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:52,480
Speaker 3: those marcial skills to back it up. And I guess

593
00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 3: once again we're selected on intelligence and our problem solving

594
00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,920
Speaker 3: skills and our ability to engage with people from around

595
00:34:00,960 --> 00:34:04,200
Speaker 3: the world. Being able to do that and actually assess, Okay,

596
00:34:04,200 --> 00:34:05,920
Speaker 3: what's the issue here and what do we need to

597
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:09,319
Speaker 3: do to solve it. We don't always resort to those

598
00:34:10,640 --> 00:34:14,560
Speaker 3: war or guns. You know, we don't just have a hammer.

599
00:34:15,040 --> 00:34:16,880
Speaker 3: We've got many tools in our toolbox.

600
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,560
Speaker 1: Because people see, like you said, the martial skills that

601
00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,040
Speaker 1: allows you to do the work that you do. People

602
00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: see a's an neither or you're a soldier or something

603
00:34:27,680 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: that NGO doing some good for communities, but quite often

604
00:34:32,800 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: the martial skills allow you to do the work, the

605
00:34:37,000 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 1: other work that you're doing.

606
00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that's the true being a true warrior

607
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:45,840
Speaker 3: is having that capacity, is that the meat will inherit

608
00:34:45,880 --> 00:34:50,120
Speaker 3: the earth. We're not talking about being meek, and the

609
00:34:50,160 --> 00:34:52,240
Speaker 3: meek are the ones that leave their shorts, their sword

610
00:34:52,280 --> 00:34:54,760
Speaker 3: in the scabbard, and go and work out other ways

611
00:34:54,800 --> 00:34:58,480
Speaker 3: to move forward into the future. So if you start

612
00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:02,720
Speaker 3: pulling that sword out every time, nobody evolves, nobody goes anywhere.

613
00:35:02,760 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: And so I find it much more rewarding when you

614
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:07,400
Speaker 3: don't have to pull that trigger.

615
00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,799
Speaker 1: What's the attributes that I see it? Just in conversation

616
00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:17,200
Speaker 1: with you, I can see where you're coming from. But

617
00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,240
Speaker 1: what's the attributes that you think make a good Special

618
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 1: Forces soldier? Are someone capable of fitting into the sas?

619
00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:26,600
Speaker 2: Emotional intelligence is number one?

620
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:29,480
Speaker 1: Okay, Now, no one, no one would have no one

621
00:35:29,520 --> 00:35:32,719
Speaker 1: would have guessed. I guess that. But I understand what

622
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: you're saying.

623
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, understanding who you are, and that empathy is a

624
00:35:36,680 --> 00:35:40,240
Speaker 3: big one too. You're going into you know, you're offshore,

625
00:35:40,320 --> 00:35:43,920
Speaker 3: and even on shore, there's problems if you have an

626
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,279
Speaker 3: empathy as you said, you understand the position of some

627
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: of the crooks and crims, you're like far out and

628
00:35:50,200 --> 00:35:52,359
Speaker 3: you're going to approach that problem in a different way.

629
00:35:52,840 --> 00:35:56,680
Speaker 3: And so once you start to understand the other people

630
00:35:56,680 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 3: who you're dealing with, said, you've got a much better

631
00:35:59,239 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: chance of working to towards a solution or resolution as

632
00:36:03,960 --> 00:36:07,480
Speaker 3: opposed to just right, we're going to hit force with force,

633
00:36:07,800 --> 00:36:11,040
Speaker 3: and we learn that in jiu jitsu, and it's much

634
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 3: better to do a flanker than up regards with lots

635
00:36:13,160 --> 00:36:13,520
Speaker 3: of smoke.

636
00:36:13,760 --> 00:36:18,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, emotional intelligence and that's the type of thing

637
00:36:18,520 --> 00:36:22,840
Speaker 1: that they're looking for with people that get to that level.

638
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:28,520
Speaker 1: And I would imagine warfare. It's a changing world in warfare,

639
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 1: isn't it. It scares me the capability of drones and

640
00:36:31,880 --> 00:36:35,359
Speaker 1: everything that's going on there. You still see a role

641
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 1: for Special Forces soldiers in the future.

642
00:36:38,200 --> 00:36:40,840
Speaker 3: I still think you need boots on the ground at

643
00:36:40,880 --> 00:36:44,759
Speaker 3: the end of the day's but the drone spaces is

644
00:36:45,000 --> 00:36:48,480
Speaker 3: really interesting. One drones these days will take out an

645
00:36:48,600 --> 00:36:53,880
Speaker 3: SF team. It's no competition really with all of the

646
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,920
Speaker 3: the optics and capabilities they've got. You know, a lot

647
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:00,160
Speaker 3: of the times the teams can't even reach out, and

648
00:37:00,360 --> 00:37:05,160
Speaker 3: you've it's got one. Even at the tactical level, you've

649
00:37:05,160 --> 00:37:08,760
Speaker 3: got all those small drones, you know, half a dozen

650
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:09,120
Speaker 3: of ten.

651
00:37:11,239 --> 00:37:14,520
Speaker 1: I've seen footage of a drone chasing someone to take

652
00:37:14,560 --> 00:37:15,200
Speaker 1: them out, Like.

653
00:37:15,280 --> 00:37:20,640
Speaker 3: Yeah, your standard little dji, it's got that that capability

654
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: to follow a person to do selfie see you know.

655
00:37:24,360 --> 00:37:26,000
Speaker 2: Then you put a bomb in that thing.

656
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:31,600
Speaker 4: And it's pretty simple technology by today's standards, isn't it.

657
00:37:31,640 --> 00:37:35,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, anybody that's gone clay shooting, you've got a shotgun.

658
00:37:35,800 --> 00:37:37,600
Speaker 3: It's hard to hit a clay target. And then there's

659
00:37:37,640 --> 00:37:41,480
Speaker 3: things going to maneuver and chase hits, and then and

660
00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:43,560
Speaker 3: then you have multiple of them.

661
00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 1: It's and it might change a potentially power base to

662
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 1: like that's not the biggest army anymore, like the.

663
00:37:51,640 --> 00:37:55,439
Speaker 3: There's a couple of things on that. So now you're

664
00:37:55,440 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 3: going to fight wars with drones. So it's it's much

665
00:37:58,080 --> 00:38:02,759
Speaker 3: more palatable to fight a war because we're not losing anybody.

666
00:38:03,440 --> 00:38:07,960
Speaker 3: So that there is that one issue. And also we'll

667
00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:13,280
Speaker 3: back in traditionally, the bigger population, the bigger your army,

668
00:38:13,800 --> 00:38:17,319
Speaker 3: and so the bigger your army, better chance you've got

669
00:38:17,320 --> 00:38:21,720
Speaker 3: a winning. Well, now this technology is coming into into

670
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,480
Speaker 3: the whole space, then you've got well, now maybe Singapore

671
00:38:25,520 --> 00:38:32,040
Speaker 3: who's got technology, technology is a potential for all we're power.

672
00:38:32,120 --> 00:38:34,640
Speaker 3: You know, it's she's going to change that dynamic on

673
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,040
Speaker 3: the battle's face. At the end of the day, you

674
00:38:37,120 --> 00:38:40,320
Speaker 3: still have to have roots on the ground to occupy

675
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,440
Speaker 3: and manage things. And so I think Special Forces certainly

676
00:38:43,480 --> 00:38:48,480
Speaker 3: does have a role. We've just got to evolve that

677
00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:51,320
Speaker 3: role and it you know, it's always it should always

678
00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 3: be evolving. And what we see I see Special Forces

679
00:38:54,400 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 3: as the R and D department for the regular army.

680
00:38:56,920 --> 00:38:59,759
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that that's part of the makeup of s

681
00:38:59,800 --> 00:39:03,760
Speaker 1: A is that continued to evolve to fit into whatever

682
00:39:03,920 --> 00:39:08,000
Speaker 1: environment they might need and need to fight in.

683
00:39:08,320 --> 00:39:09,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I guess.

684
00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,279
Speaker 3: And also preparing for a black swan because you just

685
00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:15,400
Speaker 3: don't know who. You didn't see nine to eleven coming.

686
00:39:16,320 --> 00:39:20,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, well that's yeah, that change the change of the landscape.

687
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:22,600
Speaker 1: When you were in the army at that time, when

688
00:39:23,360 --> 00:39:25,600
Speaker 1: when that happened, did you realize your life was going

689
00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: to change so dramatically?

690
00:39:27,440 --> 00:39:33,480
Speaker 3: Yeah, hich thought, Okay, jobs on. Actually ironically I was

691
00:39:34,280 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 3: in these team or at the time, and I was

692
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,200
Speaker 3: on actually guard duty on the on the front gate

693
00:39:41,239 --> 00:39:42,719
Speaker 3: of the little base at Bobinaro.

694
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:46,880
Speaker 2: So I guess joke that it happened on my watch,

695
00:39:46,920 --> 00:39:49,880
Speaker 2: too good one.

696
00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,239
Speaker 3: Now we know who the because I came off off

697
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: the guard duty and looking at the screen and the lunchroom.

698
00:39:55,680 --> 00:39:57,279
Speaker 2: What's that? What's going on there?

699
00:39:57,320 --> 00:40:01,600
Speaker 3: The planes flying into a building. So yeah, that changed

700
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:02,360
Speaker 3: the world for it.

701
00:40:02,440 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: That changed the mentality of everyone in the army at

702
00:40:05,080 --> 00:40:07,399
Speaker 1: that Now the training became very real.

703
00:40:08,520 --> 00:40:11,399
Speaker 3: It certainly made it real. So we team or kind

704
00:40:11,400 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: of made it real. But then then okay, this is

705
00:40:14,520 --> 00:40:18,880
Speaker 3: next level now now it's yeah, and then obviously Iraq

706
00:40:19,160 --> 00:40:22,840
Speaker 3: and in Afghanistan, this this is something real. And you

707
00:40:22,880 --> 00:40:26,040
Speaker 3: know some of the guys captured it in bravery and

708
00:40:26,040 --> 00:40:29,840
Speaker 3: betrayal the actually it was one of the sons Kegan.

709
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:34,239
Speaker 3: Is the feeling sending dad off to East team or

710
00:40:34,920 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 3: was different to sending dad off to Afghanistan? Yeah, and

711
00:40:37,680 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 3: so it made it a bit more real real, Yeah,

712
00:40:41,160 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 3: and yeah, significant increase in the.

713
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:47,960
Speaker 1: Threat you you have relatively recent also been across to

714
00:40:48,000 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: the Ukraine. Security for doctors getting into hospitals near the

715
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,840
Speaker 1: front line. Again, that's the way I say that's balancing

716
00:40:56,880 --> 00:40:59,759
Speaker 1: out or not balancing, but it's a real yin yang thing.

717
00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:04,040
Speaker 1: You're helping people and getting medical support into a war zone.

718
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:04,960
Speaker 1: How was that?

719
00:41:04,960 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 3: That was an experience that was really interesting because I

720
00:41:08,080 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 3: was not armed, and actually it's quite safe. I think

721
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,399
Speaker 3: within Ukraine, if I was getting around armed, I might

722
00:41:15,440 --> 00:41:18,000
Speaker 3: have got myself into more trouble than not being armed.

723
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:23,440
Speaker 3: And you know that recognizing that's important. Coming from the

724
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,319
Speaker 3: across the Polish border, having a look at all of

725
00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:33,480
Speaker 3: the eighty second airborne high Mars pointed eastward and all

726
00:41:33,520 --> 00:41:36,279
Speaker 3: the hardware going on over there was interesting. But then

727
00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:39,480
Speaker 3: going forward to I think we're in fifteen kilometers of

728
00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:44,280
Speaker 3: the front line now. These hospitals that I was escorting

729
00:41:44,400 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 3: surgeons who have been functioning like that since twenty fourteen,

730
00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:54,920
Speaker 3: when the the Next People's Republic, the Hunts People's Republic,

731
00:41:55,000 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 3: and Crimea all had referendums to leave Ukraine because there's

732
00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 3: a lot of corruption now, and I think it's to

733
00:42:03,200 --> 00:42:07,280
Speaker 3: be expected because they've only had sovereignty since nineteen ninety one,

734
00:42:08,040 --> 00:42:10,600
Speaker 3: and so there's going to be that power struggle, and

735
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:14,399
Speaker 3: I see that throughout Africa when the colonial powers pull out,

736
00:42:14,719 --> 00:42:17,799
Speaker 3: there's this power vacuum, and well what do we do

737
00:42:17,880 --> 00:42:18,160
Speaker 3: with this?

738
00:42:18,239 --> 00:42:22,000
Speaker 2: And so they're all just power buying.

739
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,120
Speaker 3: Power corrupts and so you know, when you've got a

740
00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,200
Speaker 3: government that doesn't hand out money to the regions and

741
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:33,480
Speaker 3: you're Australia did that with New Guinea too. We just

742
00:42:33,520 --> 00:42:35,879
Speaker 3: pulled out and virtue signaled to the world, hey we've

743
00:42:35,880 --> 00:42:39,200
Speaker 3: given it to give it to a bit. There's if

744
00:42:39,239 --> 00:42:44,440
Speaker 3: you slowly withdraw and enable the locals and build them up,

745
00:42:44,480 --> 00:42:46,920
Speaker 3: then it's a nice way to do it instead of

746
00:42:46,960 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 3: just pulling out and going look at us, aren't we awesome?

747
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:55,239
Speaker 1: You acknowledge as a soldier, you sign up and yeah, yep, military,

748
00:42:55,520 --> 00:42:57,360
Speaker 1: you can be ordered. This is how we're going to

749
00:42:57,480 --> 00:43:00,880
Speaker 1: use you for whatever reason. That might be something you

750
00:43:01,280 --> 00:43:03,719
Speaker 1: personally don't agree with, but you accept. That's part of

751
00:43:03,760 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: signing up up for the military is that that correct.

752
00:43:06,520 --> 00:43:07,080
Speaker 2: That's correct.

753
00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,720
Speaker 3: And so once again it's that unique factors of service

754
00:43:11,280 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 3: you give you.

755
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:16,560
Speaker 1: Join the army in.

756
00:43:16,600 --> 00:43:21,120
Speaker 2: Life and if you do have a big issue with it,

757
00:43:21,200 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: then you get.

758
00:43:22,400 --> 00:43:28,440
Speaker 1: Out reflections of your time in service in Afghanistan and

759
00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 1: the time in the military. Do you look back at

760
00:43:30,920 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 1: it with pride?

761
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,800
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, some of the fondest times in my life,

762
00:43:35,160 --> 00:43:36,760
Speaker 3: I often wish that I could do it again.

763
00:43:37,080 --> 00:43:39,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, we all want that all. So I'd like to

764
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,520
Speaker 1: start again and do it all again.

765
00:43:42,080 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 3: Yeah my brain thinks I on twenty one, but my

766
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: body thinks I'm an idiot.

767
00:43:46,320 --> 00:43:49,200
Speaker 2: Just listen, listen to your brain. Don't worry about it.

768
00:43:49,560 --> 00:43:50,440
Speaker 2: You'll be fine.

769
00:43:51,239 --> 00:43:53,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, you do. You do look back at it,

770
00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 1: and you've paid the price emotionally, physically and everything that

771
00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,520
Speaker 1: you've been through it. But you look back at your

772
00:43:59,600 --> 00:44:00,480
Speaker 1: service pride.

773
00:44:00,600 --> 00:44:05,160
Speaker 3: Absolutely. Yeah, yeah, it's great pride. And I'm glad that

774
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 3: I'm really glad that I've got the opportunity. And I

775
00:44:08,880 --> 00:44:14,080
Speaker 3: do promote the idea of anybody else that's considering getting

776
00:44:14,120 --> 00:44:17,959
Speaker 3: into the defense force to go for it. And again,

777
00:44:18,239 --> 00:44:22,520
Speaker 3: I achieved amazing things in there, and it set me

778
00:44:22,600 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 3: up well, and I've got some lifetime friends forged in

779
00:44:26,680 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 3: fire and and yeah, they were great times, and I'm

780
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 3: thankful that I got that opportunity. And so so I

781
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:37,920
Speaker 3: say this, there's no greater calling than to be of

782
00:44:38,080 --> 00:44:43,319
Speaker 3: service as long as people serve, not take interesting. So

783
00:44:44,000 --> 00:44:46,520
Speaker 3: when you are joining up going with the eyes white aprons.

784
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:49,640
Speaker 3: Once again, we saw what they did to the Vietnam

785
00:44:49,760 --> 00:44:53,040
Speaker 3: vets still joined up and so what they're doing to

786
00:44:53,120 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 3: us and let that put you off, but go in

787
00:44:56,000 --> 00:44:57,040
Speaker 3: with the eyes white open.

788
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 2: And now here we are with the film.

789
00:44:59,200 --> 00:45:02,040
Speaker 3: So I'm hoping that that will raise the awareness in

790
00:45:02,080 --> 00:45:06,120
Speaker 3: Australian public so that we can take steps to ensure

791
00:45:06,160 --> 00:45:08,360
Speaker 3: that it doesn't happen to the next generation.

792
00:45:08,320 --> 00:45:12,359
Speaker 1: And what And part of the motive I understand that

793
00:45:12,400 --> 00:45:15,160
Speaker 1: for the film is to make sure your story, as

794
00:45:15,200 --> 00:45:18,680
Speaker 1: in collectively everyone that was involved in this story that

795
00:45:18,760 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: comes across you would hope that these allegations about war

796
00:45:23,080 --> 00:45:26,439
Speaker 1: crimes and resolved sooner rather than later, because people's lives

797
00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:27,279
Speaker 1: are on hold.

798
00:45:27,960 --> 00:45:31,759
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, so and that was when we recently did

799
00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:34,520
Speaker 3: a screening at Parliament House and it's one of our

800
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:37,160
Speaker 3: big things is Okay, this has been going on for

801
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,360
Speaker 3: ten years now. I'm not a lawyer or been involved

802
00:45:42,400 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 3: in policing. I'm pretty sure that these things shouldn't go

803
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:49,000
Speaker 3: get dragged on that long and if there's anything there,

804
00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:53,920
Speaker 3: it should be finalized, charges, put up or shut up.

805
00:45:55,160 --> 00:46:00,600
Speaker 3: We've got ex military people from the UK that.

806
00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:04,400
Speaker 2: The Island conflict.

807
00:46:04,520 --> 00:46:06,600
Speaker 3: They've got allegations hanging over their head. And I think

808
00:46:06,600 --> 00:46:09,720
Speaker 3: the guy just died recently for fifty years, he died

809
00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 3: with those allegations, So you know, I imagine living with that,

810
00:46:13,000 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 3: and so that's got to shorten your life and the

811
00:46:15,280 --> 00:46:18,880
Speaker 3: impact that has not only on the person that's under charges,

812
00:46:19,160 --> 00:46:22,879
Speaker 3: to flow on effect the family. So I think one

813
00:46:22,920 --> 00:46:26,360
Speaker 3: of the findings on the Royal Commission into Suicide is

814
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,440
Speaker 3: anybody that comes into contact with the justice system, it

815
00:46:31,560 --> 00:46:35,760
Speaker 3: does have a psychological impact. And the longer you are

816
00:46:37,120 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 3: in contact with that under investigation, the greater the effect.

817
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,839
Speaker 3: And so then we're talking about suicide algy and not

818
00:46:44,920 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 3: only that trauma that you're passing on to your family

819
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:52,279
Speaker 3: and then the community. And we've got not only that,

820
00:46:52,360 --> 00:46:56,400
Speaker 3: and you've got kids coming home from school being teased

821
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,080
Speaker 3: that the dad's a war criminal as well.

822
00:46:58,560 --> 00:47:02,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's far reaching, isn't it. And I sit here

823
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: and say, I hope they get it resolved sooner than later,

824
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,080
Speaker 1: because I think it's just a living hell and nightmare

825
00:47:08,120 --> 00:47:12,600
Speaker 1: that these people are going through. And yeah, it's you guys,

826
00:47:13,360 --> 00:47:17,680
Speaker 1: shit happens. I know who I want going to defending

827
00:47:17,680 --> 00:47:22,240
Speaker 1: our country. It's gather you blokes. Together, defending, defending the country,

828
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:26,879
Speaker 1: and yeah, I think we've got to accept that it's

829
00:47:26,920 --> 00:47:30,120
Speaker 1: an environment that unless you've been there, you don't understand

830
00:47:30,640 --> 00:47:31,239
Speaker 1: what goes on.

831
00:47:31,640 --> 00:47:32,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's quite complex, you know.

832
00:47:33,160 --> 00:47:35,480
Speaker 3: So I have been to Ukraine and so I have

833
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 3: an opinion on that, and people ask me about Guarzian.

834
00:47:39,080 --> 00:47:41,640
Speaker 3: I haven't been there, so I don't have an opinion.

835
00:47:42,160 --> 00:47:44,319
Speaker 1: All right, well we might wrap it up. I just

836
00:47:45,160 --> 00:47:49,000
Speaker 1: to see Bravery and Betrayal the documentary. I know it's

837
00:47:49,000 --> 00:47:51,880
Speaker 1: still touring around the country if people are interested in

838
00:47:51,920 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: seeing it, and I thoroughly recommend it and certainly expanding

839
00:47:55,719 --> 00:47:59,320
Speaker 1: on what we've talked about here and some really interesting

840
00:47:59,560 --> 00:48:03,000
Speaker 1: and heavy emotional stuff that comes out in the documentary.

841
00:48:03,800 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: How can people find out where they can serve it?

842
00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:09,080
Speaker 3: So get onto the Wandering Warriors website. Now there are

843
00:48:09,440 --> 00:48:15,240
Speaker 3: another veteran or support organization who have involved with education.

844
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:17,759
Speaker 3: I guess we need to say that the film was

845
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 3: actually done on donations from the Australian public, So thank

846
00:48:21,200 --> 00:48:25,920
Speaker 3: you to all those people and managed by Wandering Warriors,

847
00:48:26,480 --> 00:48:30,160
Speaker 3: so big shout out to them as well. So Wandering

848
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:32,680
Speaker 3: Warriors and the Burrow of in Betrayal two or two

849
00:48:32,719 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 3: point zero back by popular demand. You see all the

850
00:48:35,440 --> 00:48:40,200
Speaker 3: tour dates and locations working way south all the way

851
00:48:40,280 --> 00:48:45,759
Speaker 3: through to Tasmania and Adelaide in early November, and a

852
00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:47,560
Speaker 3: lot of regional centers in between.

853
00:48:48,160 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: Excellent. All right, before I wrap it up, you reckon

854
00:48:51,680 --> 00:48:53,920
Speaker 1: Spike's God, that's what it takes to get through the

855
00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:56,480
Speaker 1: selection course in the essays.

856
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:58,080
Speaker 2: These dogs have.

857
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: Sorry, Spike, will get your gig somewhere else. Thank you

858
00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:09,840
Speaker 1: so much for coming on the day. And yeah, total

859
00:49:09,880 --> 00:49:13,239
Speaker 1: respect for the services you've given to the country and

860
00:49:13,760 --> 00:49:16,360
Speaker 1: talking about the things that you're talking about. Total respect

861
00:49:16,360 --> 00:49:18,960
Speaker 1: from my end, mate, and I hope all the best

862
00:49:19,360 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 1: for the future and what you're doing. You should be

863
00:49:22,000 --> 00:49:22,720
Speaker 1: proud of yourself.

864
00:49:23,440 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 3: Likewise, think you total respect for you and your your

865
00:49:26,640 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 3: history as well. Did a little bit of research O

866
00:49:29,640 --> 00:49:32,480
Speaker 3: got here and yeah, I was pretty much ignorant of

867
00:49:33,000 --> 00:49:33,520
Speaker 3: who you were.

868
00:49:33,560 --> 00:49:35,759
Speaker 1: And then my headlines you.

869
00:49:35,719 --> 00:49:40,839
Speaker 3: Know, I'm fami with the media reading between the lines here. Yeah,

870
00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,440
Speaker 3: thank you for what you've been doing while we've been here,

871
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,879
Speaker 3: while we've been doing it overseas, so it takes all of.

872
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:49,120
Speaker 2: Us and so thank you. Good stuff.

873
00:49:49,200 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 1: Thanks