Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.
Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, April twenty nine, twenty twenty five. Dozens of
Speaker 1: tanks promised to Ukraine by the Australian government have yet
Speaker 1: to leave the country. They're tied up in red tape
Speaker 1: and nobody can agree who'll keep the tanks running on
Speaker 1: the battlefield. David chris A fully forked out two hundred
Speaker 1: thousand dollars to avoid a court date after a company
Speaker 1: where he was sole director collapsed. The Queensland Premier made
Speaker 1: the compensation payment for alleged insolvent trading in twenty nineteen
Speaker 1: when he was a senior member of the opposition front bench.
Speaker 1: Those exclusive stories alive right now at Beaustralian dot com
Speaker 1: dot au. A papal conclave has to happen in just
Speaker 1: over a week and the wheeling and dealing is underway. Now.
Speaker 1: A dark horse has emerged. He's the Pope's representative in Jerusalem.
Speaker 1: He speaks Hebrew and where's a kefir? And he offered
Speaker 1: to go into Gaza as a hostage in exchange for
Speaker 1: the civilians kidnapped by Hamas Today columnist Angela Shanahan on
Speaker 1: who are the real contenders in the Conclave. In the
Speaker 1: Higher Motion of October twenty twenty three, after Harmas snatched
Speaker 1: more than two hundred hostages from Israel, one voice stood
Speaker 1: out from the crowd.
Speaker 2: Violence produces just violence.
Speaker 1: Catholic Cardinal Pierre Battista Pizzabala, the Vatican's Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,
Speaker 1: said take me instead. In response to a question from
Speaker 1: a reporter. He volunteered to go into Gaza as a
Speaker 1: hostage in return for Israelis who'd been kidnapped. We've used
Speaker 1: an Ai voice to read his words.
Speaker 3: If this could bring about the freedom of children, no problem,
Speaker 3: my absolute willingness.
Speaker 1: Now, Pizzaballa is one of the cardinals about to enter
Speaker 1: conclave in Rome, the top secret ballot for a new pope,
Speaker 1: and there's a possibility he could emerge as the Holy Father.
Speaker 1: It'll be a bit like the movie Conclave starring Ray Fines.
Speaker 3: If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would
Speaker 3: be no mystery and therefore no need.
Speaker 1: For faith, and maybe with an equally big twist at
Speaker 1: the end. Don't worry, I won't spoil it for you.
Speaker 1: But then the last real life conclave had a surprise
Speaker 1: ending too. Mario Begoglio wasn't on many radars, but when
Speaker 1: that white smoke rose from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel,
Speaker 1: he became Pope Francis.
Speaker 3: Let us pray that God will grant us a pope
Speaker 3: who doubts the.
Speaker 1: Catholic Church really knows showbiz. The global fascination, with its
Speaker 1: ancient rituals and modern dilemmas, is fed by endless tableau
Speaker 1: of scarlet robes and glorious architecture. Between May six and eleven,
Speaker 1: the world's most senior Catholics will be locked in a
Speaker 1: room to decide. This will be the first time most
Speaker 1: of the cardinals eligible to vote, that is, those younger
Speaker 1: than eighty, have participated in a papal conclave. That's because
Speaker 1: almost all of them eighty percent, were appointed by Pope Francis.
Speaker 1: His appointees came from all over the world, including Africa
Speaker 1: and Asia, and of the one hundred and thirty five
Speaker 1: cardinals convening for the vote, a handful have been labeled
Speaker 1: Papa Billet front runners.
Speaker 4: Talking about who's going to be the Pope is almost
Speaker 4: really a waste of time because I think As Jackie
Speaker 4: Magna pointed out very well in this article that she
Speaker 4: wrote for Today's paper, everyone who goes in as Papa
Speaker 4: Bilt comes out a cardinal. That means basically that it's
Speaker 4: usually a dark horse.
Speaker 1: This is The Australian's columnist Angela Shanahan. Angela's got a
Speaker 1: hunch that Cardinal Pitzabaala is in with a chance. Do
Speaker 1: you think he's a genuine contender for the new pope?
Speaker 4: Oh yes, I do. I don't know whether the people
Speaker 4: who are thinking about the bureaucracy of the church will
Speaker 4: think he is probably not experienced enough in that part
Speaker 4: of what the pope does, so he might not be
Speaker 4: ideal in that sense, but he is definitely ideal in
Speaker 4: the sense of being an extremely interesting, holy and very
Speaker 4: scholarly person, a person who actually volunteered to go to Gaza.
Speaker 4: He's a member of the Friars Minor. In other words,
Speaker 4: he's a true Franciscan, and he is a scholar. He's
Speaker 4: a scholar of Hebrew, and he can also speak modern Hebrew,
Speaker 4: Arabic Italian of course, because he was originally Italian and English.
Speaker 4: And I think someone like that has a sense of
Speaker 4: the more important things that the church needs and some
Speaker 4: of the stuff that people have been talking about in
Speaker 4: the media and worrying about, which I really don't think
Speaker 4: a lot of it is relevant. Actually, personally, I think
Speaker 4: that Europe's day is done to the papacy. I was
Speaker 4: asked before the last concave one that voted Pope prounces
Speaker 4: In where I thought the Pope would come from, and
Speaker 4: I said, I thought he would come from South America.
Speaker 4: And the reason I said that was, but it's not Europe,
Speaker 4: and it is the New World, but it's also a
Speaker 4: great stronghold of Catholicism.
Speaker 1: Angelou was right. Pope Francis was from Argentina, and now
Speaker 1: her other strong contender is Cardinal Luis Antonio Tugley of
Speaker 1: the Philippines.
Speaker 4: He's very popular and hugely popular in the Philippines. And
Speaker 4: another thing, and this is something they might have in
Speaker 4: the front of their mind. There are more baptisms every
Speaker 4: year in the Philippines than in Italy, France, Germany and
Speaker 4: Poland combined. The Philippines has been very much infected by Pentecostalism.
Speaker 4: I'm just a sort of normal, everyday, old fashioned Catholic
Speaker 4: find it a little bit over the top, but the
Speaker 4: Philippinos like it. It fits their temperament. It might be
Speaker 4: something that Cardinal Tagler could bring to the church and
Speaker 4: to people who rather liked that form of worship.
Speaker 1: Other contenders are the Hungarian Peter Erdo and three possible
Speaker 1: candidates from Africa, including Robert Sarah of Guinea, Peter Turkson
Speaker 1: of Ghana, and Fridele and Bissungu of Congo.
Speaker 4: I doubt very much whether they'll elect an African because
Speaker 4: the African Church is extremely conservative in its practice. I
Speaker 4: think it would be really impossible to be frank, One
Speaker 4: thing that they do know about in Africa is persecution
Speaker 4: of Christians, particularly by the new Islamic militants in Africa,
Speaker 4: who have been giving people, particularly in the Congo terrible time,
Speaker 4: murdering and kidnapping girls and all sorts of things. I
Speaker 4: think this is another reason why to go back to
Speaker 4: I's the Balo. He might actually have something of an
Speaker 4: advantage over the Europeans. They're all worried about Islamic fundamentalism,
Speaker 4: but they've never really experienced it.
Speaker 1: What do you think is the biggest issue the new
Speaker 1: pope will have to confront.
Speaker 4: The persecution of Christianity in the New World, combined with
Speaker 4: the watering down of Catholic doctrine in the old world.
Speaker 4: Another thing they're going to have to figure out is
Speaker 4: what they're going to do about China, because the Church
Speaker 4: is growing in China.
Speaker 1: Do you think, Angela, that there's a possibility that in
Speaker 1: the next couple of decades the church will see major
Speaker 1: doctrinal change changes in its attitude to divorce and to
Speaker 1: women becoming priests, for example, or no. Do you see
Speaker 1: the next couple of decades as a period of consolidation
Speaker 1: and a return to orthodoxy for the church?
Speaker 4: I guess in some ways yes, and in some ways no.
Speaker 4: Take for example, the whole muddled issue about blessings for
Speaker 4: couples in irregular relationships. Now, this is just about gay couples,
Speaker 4: and in fact, the Church will never change its mind
Speaker 4: on that. You can forget that one. But it might
Speaker 4: bring in blessings for couples in relationships where one has
Speaker 4: been divorced, for example, It is actually easier to obtain
Speaker 4: an annulment now than it ever used to be. But
Speaker 4: what's different now is the whole idea about we take
Speaker 4: into account people's attitude to marriage when they marry when
Speaker 4: I was a kid, people who got divorced simply could
Speaker 4: not re marry in the church. That was it out
Speaker 4: no more. And a lot of people in that situation
Speaker 4: never went back to church. They never went back to
Speaker 4: Holy Communion. Now they take into account all sorts of things.
Speaker 4: I have a cousin who's actually had an annulment, and
Speaker 4: they took into consideration the fact that she was stupid
Speaker 4: and young and went off and married this bloke who
Speaker 4: basically dumped up them, and they didn't have any children.
Speaker 4: That also is quite a big factor.
Speaker 1: And what about women.
Speaker 4: And now women are interesting Now the apparently was quite
Speaker 4: interested in the idea of women deacons, but a lot
Speaker 4: of the cardinals are against her because they see the
Speaker 4: next step is into the priesthood. There's no doctrinal reason
Speaker 4: why women couldn't be priests, really. But on the other hand,
Speaker 4: there's an idea very strongly in the Church that women
Speaker 4: have such a special role as mothers and teachers and guides,
Speaker 4: that it's a different role from the priest, and it's
Speaker 4: very strongly in the Catholic worldview, you know.
Speaker 1: And what about priests being allowed to marry?
Speaker 4: That is another one. Now, interestingly, I don't know if
Speaker 4: you noticed this, but there were priests at the Pope's funeral,
Speaker 4: and one of whom had a wife. The Eastern Churches
Speaker 4: have always allowed their priests to marry, but priests in
Speaker 4: the Eastern Church who marry don't become bishops. Now, there's
Speaker 4: always been a lot of argument that the ordinary parish
Speaker 4: priests could become husbands and fathers, and it might be
Speaker 4: a good thing. The only I don't know that it
Speaker 4: would be such a bad thing myself, but I do
Speaker 4: think it would be difficult, practically quite difficult, because they
Speaker 4: don't get paid.
Speaker 1: That's a draw.
Speaker 4: Well, it's not a job. The priesthood is a vocation.
Speaker 1: Coming up, is Cardinal Pitzaballah ready to tackle the church's
Speaker 1: very modern challenges his beatitude. Cardinal Pierre Battista Pitza Bala
Speaker 1: has served as the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem since twenty twenty.
Speaker 1: He is the Pope's representative in the Holy Land, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel,
Speaker 1: and Palestine. After the Pope died, Pitza Bala made a
Speaker 1: video revealing how he met Francis.
Speaker 5: He was in Buenos Aires and I had to go
Speaker 5: and visit the community of the franciscanc in Buenos Aires.
Speaker 5: And I was also a little bit nervous because I
Speaker 5: was blocked in the traffic, so I was late. I
Speaker 5: was not used to see cardinals, and there was there priests.
Speaker 5: Was there as a priest and clergyman waiting for us
Speaker 5: and helped us to park if not very well.
Speaker 2: And this.
Speaker 5: Told me, come down, father, don't worry. I am the
Speaker 5: cardin and I was waiting for you.
Speaker 1: Pitzbella had only been a cardinal for a matter of
Speaker 1: weeks when Hamas invaded Israel and when he made that
Speaker 1: extraordinary offer to exchange places with the hostages. He also
Speaker 1: visited Gaza in twenty twenty four, and just like Pope Francis,
Speaker 1: was in regular phone contact with the local priests.
Speaker 2: Fessor Warda to say that what happens seven October is
Speaker 2: also objectively intolerable, but also what is going on in Gaza,
Speaker 2: the proportion I don't know of the violence of your
Speaker 2: assisting is something that goes beyond any understanding.
Speaker 4: I think he's been very open, particularly to the Palestinian
Speaker 4: Christians who are having a very hard time. I actually
Speaker 4: interviewed the former patriarch. His name was Foutoi, and he
Speaker 4: told me that they very much feel under the hammer
Speaker 4: of the Israeli occupation, but on the anvil of Islamic fundamentalism.
Speaker 4: They're really stuck in between. There used to be a
Speaker 4: lot of them, they are about over thirty percent of
Speaker 4: them were Christian Palestinians. Now there's only about two percent
Speaker 4: of them left, and they're stuck in the middle. I
Speaker 4: think he has a sense of how this reflects a
Speaker 4: lot of the problems of the Middle East, which is
Speaker 4: in total turmoil at the moment and doesn't look like
Speaker 4: coming out of it anytime soon. And I think of
Speaker 4: all the candidates, he's the one that has the best
Speaker 4: grasp on what's going on there.
Speaker 1: Angela Shanahan is a columnist for The Australian. You can
Speaker 1: read the latest about the conclave anytime at the Australian
Speaker 1: dot com dot au