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Speaker 1: From The Australian. Here's what's on the front. I'm Claire Harvey.

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Speaker 1: It's Tuesday, April twenty nine, twenty twenty five. Dozens of

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Speaker 1: tanks promised to Ukraine by the Australian government have yet

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Speaker 1: to leave the country. They're tied up in red tape

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Speaker 1: and nobody can agree who'll keep the tanks running on

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Speaker 1: the battlefield. David chris A fully forked out two hundred

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Speaker 1: thousand dollars to avoid a court date after a company

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Speaker 1: where he was sole director collapsed. The Queensland Premier made

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Speaker 1: the compensation payment for alleged insolvent trading in twenty nineteen

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Speaker 1: when he was a senior member of the opposition front bench.

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Speaker 1: Those exclusive stories alive right now at Beaustralian dot com

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Speaker 1: dot au. A papal conclave has to happen in just

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Speaker 1: over a week and the wheeling and dealing is underway. Now.

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Speaker 1: A dark horse has emerged. He's the Pope's representative in Jerusalem.

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Speaker 1: He speaks Hebrew and where's a kefir? And he offered

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Speaker 1: to go into Gaza as a hostage in exchange for

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Speaker 1: the civilians kidnapped by Hamas Today columnist Angela Shanahan on

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Speaker 1: who are the real contenders in the Conclave. In the

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Speaker 1: Higher Motion of October twenty twenty three, after Harmas snatched

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Speaker 1: more than two hundred hostages from Israel, one voice stood

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Speaker 1: out from the crowd.

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Speaker 2: Violence produces just violence.

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Speaker 1: Catholic Cardinal Pierre Battista Pizzabala, the Vatican's Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem,

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Speaker 1: said take me instead. In response to a question from

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Speaker 1: a reporter. He volunteered to go into Gaza as a

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Speaker 1: hostage in return for Israelis who'd been kidnapped. We've used

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Speaker 1: an Ai voice to read his words.

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Speaker 3: If this could bring about the freedom of children, no problem,

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Speaker 3: my absolute willingness.

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Speaker 1: Now, Pizzaballa is one of the cardinals about to enter

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Speaker 1: conclave in Rome, the top secret ballot for a new pope,

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Speaker 1: and there's a possibility he could emerge as the Holy Father.

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Speaker 1: It'll be a bit like the movie Conclave starring Ray Fines.

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Speaker 3: If there was only certainty and no doubt, there would

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Speaker 3: be no mystery and therefore no need.

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Speaker 1: For faith, and maybe with an equally big twist at

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Speaker 1: the end. Don't worry, I won't spoil it for you.

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Speaker 1: But then the last real life conclave had a surprise

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Speaker 1: ending too. Mario Begoglio wasn't on many radars, but when

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Speaker 1: that white smoke rose from the chimney of the Sistine Chapel,

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Speaker 1: he became Pope Francis.

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Speaker 3: Let us pray that God will grant us a pope

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Speaker 3: who doubts the.

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Speaker 1: Catholic Church really knows showbiz. The global fascination, with its

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Speaker 1: ancient rituals and modern dilemmas, is fed by endless tableau

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Speaker 1: of scarlet robes and glorious architecture. Between May six and eleven,

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Speaker 1: the world's most senior Catholics will be locked in a

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Speaker 1: room to decide. This will be the first time most

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Speaker 1: of the cardinals eligible to vote, that is, those younger

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Speaker 1: than eighty, have participated in a papal conclave. That's because

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Speaker 1: almost all of them eighty percent, were appointed by Pope Francis.

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Speaker 1: His appointees came from all over the world, including Africa

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Speaker 1: and Asia, and of the one hundred and thirty five

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Speaker 1: cardinals convening for the vote, a handful have been labeled

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Speaker 1: Papa Billet front runners.

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Speaker 4: Talking about who's going to be the Pope is almost

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Speaker 4: really a waste of time because I think As Jackie

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Speaker 4: Magna pointed out very well in this article that she

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Speaker 4: wrote for Today's paper, everyone who goes in as Papa

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Speaker 4: Bilt comes out a cardinal. That means basically that it's

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Speaker 4: usually a dark horse.

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Speaker 1: This is The Australian's columnist Angela Shanahan. Angela's got a

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Speaker 1: hunch that Cardinal Pitzabaala is in with a chance. Do

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Speaker 1: you think he's a genuine contender for the new pope?

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Speaker 4: Oh yes, I do. I don't know whether the people

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Speaker 4: who are thinking about the bureaucracy of the church will

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Speaker 4: think he is probably not experienced enough in that part

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Speaker 4: of what the pope does, so he might not be

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Speaker 4: ideal in that sense, but he is definitely ideal in

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Speaker 4: the sense of being an extremely interesting, holy and very

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Speaker 4: scholarly person, a person who actually volunteered to go to Gaza.

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Speaker 4: He's a member of the Friars Minor. In other words,

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Speaker 4: he's a true Franciscan, and he is a scholar. He's

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Speaker 4: a scholar of Hebrew, and he can also speak modern Hebrew,

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Speaker 4: Arabic Italian of course, because he was originally Italian and English.

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Speaker 4: And I think someone like that has a sense of

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Speaker 4: the more important things that the church needs and some

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Speaker 4: of the stuff that people have been talking about in

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Speaker 4: the media and worrying about, which I really don't think

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Speaker 4: a lot of it is relevant. Actually, personally, I think

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Speaker 4: that Europe's day is done to the papacy. I was

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Speaker 4: asked before the last concave one that voted Pope prounces

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Speaker 4: In where I thought the Pope would come from, and

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Speaker 4: I said, I thought he would come from South America.

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Speaker 4: And the reason I said that was, but it's not Europe,

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Speaker 4: and it is the New World, but it's also a

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Speaker 4: great stronghold of Catholicism.

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Speaker 1: Angelou was right. Pope Francis was from Argentina, and now

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Speaker 1: her other strong contender is Cardinal Luis Antonio Tugley of

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Speaker 1: the Philippines.

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Speaker 4: He's very popular and hugely popular in the Philippines. And

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Speaker 4: another thing, and this is something they might have in

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Speaker 4: the front of their mind. There are more baptisms every

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Speaker 4: year in the Philippines than in Italy, France, Germany and

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Speaker 4: Poland combined. The Philippines has been very much infected by Pentecostalism.

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Speaker 4: I'm just a sort of normal, everyday, old fashioned Catholic

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Speaker 4: find it a little bit over the top, but the

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Speaker 4: Philippinos like it. It fits their temperament. It might be

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Speaker 4: something that Cardinal Tagler could bring to the church and

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Speaker 4: to people who rather liked that form of worship.

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Speaker 1: Other contenders are the Hungarian Peter Erdo and three possible

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Speaker 1: candidates from Africa, including Robert Sarah of Guinea, Peter Turkson

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Speaker 1: of Ghana, and Fridele and Bissungu of Congo.

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Speaker 4: I doubt very much whether they'll elect an African because

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Speaker 4: the African Church is extremely conservative in its practice. I

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Speaker 4: think it would be really impossible to be frank, One

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Speaker 4: thing that they do know about in Africa is persecution

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Speaker 4: of Christians, particularly by the new Islamic militants in Africa,

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Speaker 4: who have been giving people, particularly in the Congo terrible time,

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Speaker 4: murdering and kidnapping girls and all sorts of things. I

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Speaker 4: think this is another reason why to go back to

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Speaker 4: I's the Balo. He might actually have something of an

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Speaker 4: advantage over the Europeans. They're all worried about Islamic fundamentalism,

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Speaker 4: but they've never really experienced it.

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Speaker 1: What do you think is the biggest issue the new

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Speaker 1: pope will have to confront.

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Speaker 4: The persecution of Christianity in the New World, combined with

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Speaker 4: the watering down of Catholic doctrine in the old world.

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Speaker 4: Another thing they're going to have to figure out is

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Speaker 4: what they're going to do about China, because the Church

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Speaker 4: is growing in China.

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Speaker 1: Do you think, Angela, that there's a possibility that in

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Speaker 1: the next couple of decades the church will see major

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Speaker 1: doctrinal change changes in its attitude to divorce and to

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Speaker 1: women becoming priests, for example, or no. Do you see

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Speaker 1: the next couple of decades as a period of consolidation

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Speaker 1: and a return to orthodoxy for the church?

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Speaker 4: I guess in some ways yes, and in some ways no.

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Speaker 4: Take for example, the whole muddled issue about blessings for

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Speaker 4: couples in irregular relationships. Now, this is just about gay couples,

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Speaker 4: and in fact, the Church will never change its mind

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Speaker 4: on that. You can forget that one. But it might

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Speaker 4: bring in blessings for couples in relationships where one has

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Speaker 4: been divorced, for example, It is actually easier to obtain

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Speaker 4: an annulment now than it ever used to be. But

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Speaker 4: what's different now is the whole idea about we take

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Speaker 4: into account people's attitude to marriage when they marry when

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Speaker 4: I was a kid, people who got divorced simply could

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Speaker 4: not re marry in the church. That was it out

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Speaker 4: no more. And a lot of people in that situation

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Speaker 4: never went back to church. They never went back to

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Speaker 4: Holy Communion. Now they take into account all sorts of things.

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Speaker 4: I have a cousin who's actually had an annulment, and

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Speaker 4: they took into consideration the fact that she was stupid

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Speaker 4: and young and went off and married this bloke who

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Speaker 4: basically dumped up them, and they didn't have any children.

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Speaker 4: That also is quite a big factor.

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Speaker 1: And what about women.

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Speaker 4: And now women are interesting Now the apparently was quite

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Speaker 4: interested in the idea of women deacons, but a lot

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Speaker 4: of the cardinals are against her because they see the

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Speaker 4: next step is into the priesthood. There's no doctrinal reason

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Speaker 4: why women couldn't be priests, really. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 4: there's an idea very strongly in the Church that women

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Speaker 4: have such a special role as mothers and teachers and guides,

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Speaker 4: that it's a different role from the priest, and it's

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Speaker 4: very strongly in the Catholic worldview, you know.

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Speaker 1: And what about priests being allowed to marry?

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Speaker 4: That is another one. Now, interestingly, I don't know if

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Speaker 4: you noticed this, but there were priests at the Pope's funeral,

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Speaker 4: and one of whom had a wife. The Eastern Churches

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Speaker 4: have always allowed their priests to marry, but priests in

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Speaker 4: the Eastern Church who marry don't become bishops. Now, there's

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Speaker 4: always been a lot of argument that the ordinary parish

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Speaker 4: priests could become husbands and fathers, and it might be

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Speaker 4: a good thing. The only I don't know that it

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Speaker 4: would be such a bad thing myself, but I do

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Speaker 4: think it would be difficult, practically quite difficult, because they

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Speaker 4: don't get paid.

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Speaker 1: That's a draw.

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Speaker 4: Well, it's not a job. The priesthood is a vocation.

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Speaker 1: Coming up, is Cardinal Pitzaballah ready to tackle the church's

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Speaker 1: very modern challenges his beatitude. Cardinal Pierre Battista Pitza Bala

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Speaker 1: has served as the Latin Patriarch of Jerusalem since twenty twenty.

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Speaker 1: He is the Pope's representative in the Holy Land, Cyprus, Jordan, Israel,

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Speaker 1: and Palestine. After the Pope died, Pitza Bala made a

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Speaker 1: video revealing how he met Francis.

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Speaker 5: He was in Buenos Aires and I had to go

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Speaker 5: and visit the community of the franciscanc in Buenos Aires.

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Speaker 5: And I was also a little bit nervous because I

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Speaker 5: was blocked in the traffic, so I was late. I

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Speaker 5: was not used to see cardinals, and there was there priests.

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Speaker 5: Was there as a priest and clergyman waiting for us

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Speaker 5: and helped us to park if not very well.

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Speaker 2: And this.

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Speaker 5: Told me, come down, father, don't worry. I am the

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Speaker 5: cardin and I was waiting for you.

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Speaker 1: Pitzbella had only been a cardinal for a matter of

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Speaker 1: weeks when Hamas invaded Israel and when he made that

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Speaker 1: extraordinary offer to exchange places with the hostages. He also

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Speaker 1: visited Gaza in twenty twenty four, and just like Pope Francis,

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Speaker 1: was in regular phone contact with the local priests.

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Speaker 2: Fessor Warda to say that what happens seven October is

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Speaker 2: also objectively intolerable, but also what is going on in Gaza,

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Speaker 2: the proportion I don't know of the violence of your

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Speaker 2: assisting is something that goes beyond any understanding.

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Speaker 4: I think he's been very open, particularly to the Palestinian

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Speaker 4: Christians who are having a very hard time. I actually

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Speaker 4: interviewed the former patriarch. His name was Foutoi, and he

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Speaker 4: told me that they very much feel under the hammer

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Speaker 4: of the Israeli occupation, but on the anvil of Islamic fundamentalism.

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Speaker 4: They're really stuck in between. There used to be a

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Speaker 4: lot of them, they are about over thirty percent of

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Speaker 4: them were Christian Palestinians. Now there's only about two percent

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Speaker 4: of them left, and they're stuck in the middle. I

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Speaker 4: think he has a sense of how this reflects a

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Speaker 4: lot of the problems of the Middle East, which is

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Speaker 4: in total turmoil at the moment and doesn't look like

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Speaker 4: coming out of it anytime soon. And I think of

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Speaker 4: all the candidates, he's the one that has the best

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Speaker 4: grasp on what's going on there.

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Speaker 1: Angela Shanahan is a columnist for The Australian. You can

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Speaker 1: read the latest about the conclave anytime at the Australian

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Speaker 1: dot com dot au