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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective sy a side of life. The average person is

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Speaker 1: never exposed her. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years, I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talk to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of the Vicatch Killers NYPD. Those

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Speaker 1: letters are embedded in my psyche. The New York Police Department,

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Speaker 1: for some reason, represents everything there is about policing. I'm

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Speaker 1: talking the good, the bad, and the ugly. If you've

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Speaker 1: spent twenty years as a cop in New York, you've

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Speaker 1: earnt your stripes in policing, that's for sure. Today's guest

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Speaker 1: retired NOPD Sergeant John Fariso has done just that, and

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Speaker 1: today we have the pleasure of having him on My

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Speaker 1: Catch Killers. As you'd expect from a veteran New York cop,

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Speaker 1: he has a thousand stories to tell. In two thousand

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Speaker 1: and one, he was on duty working at one police plaza,

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Speaker 1: just a short distance from where the planes crashed into

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Speaker 1: the World Trade Center. He was shaken by the explosion

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Speaker 1: and had the horror of seeing people jump from the

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Speaker 1: building to their death. Today he's going to give us

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Speaker 1: a first hand account of the fear and the chaos

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Speaker 1: of what occurred. But that's just part of his story.

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Speaker 1: This is how he described his policing career. When you're

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Speaker 1: a New York City police officer, you become a social worker, chauffeur,

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Speaker 1: human relations consultant, and a tour guide. You're expected to

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Speaker 1: do all those things while stopping crime as it occurs,

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Speaker 1: preventing crime, and keeping the peace in a city that

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Speaker 1: never takes a break. Today to hear his stories, John Fariso,

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Speaker 1: welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: Thank you great to be here.

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Speaker 1: Well, I've got to say you're the first New York

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Speaker 1: cop we've had on I Catch Killer. Someone a bit

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Speaker 1: excited about that because policing in New York is poleacing

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Speaker 1: at the sharp end. And yeah, we've touched on New

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Speaker 1: York crime. I had Michael Francis as a guest, the

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Speaker 1: Mafia Kappa a guest on there, and I've also had

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Speaker 1: Joe Pistoni, the real Donnie Brasco on.

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Speaker 2: Great. Thank you for having me here. This is my

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Speaker 2: first podcast outside the US, so I appreciate you having

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Speaker 2: me on. I plan on doing more outside of the US,

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Speaker 2: but this is the first one. I'm doing.

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Speaker 1: Oh, very good, very good. Well. I think there is

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Speaker 1: a fascination about policing in New York. I don't know

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Speaker 1: what it is. Whether it's we sort of grow up

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Speaker 1: on hearing stories of New York and if something happens

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Speaker 1: in New York, the news news travels fast. I suppose

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Speaker 1: there's also from my point of view, I was even

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Speaker 1: when I was in the Cops, I was watching MYPD Blues,

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Speaker 1: grew up watching Serpi k the movie, and Donnie Brasco

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Speaker 1: American Gangster. It's all very New York related.

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Speaker 2: Definitely. I'm glad you mentioned Surproco. I mentioned that a lot.

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Speaker 2: That's probably one of the top two best corp movies

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Speaker 2: ever and definitely betrays New York City during the time.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, they were different, different times, and we'll talk on that.

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Speaker 1: We've had in New South Wales police. We've had the

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Speaker 1: corruption and everything that comes with policing, but it's just

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Speaker 1: part and parcel of the job. One thing that I

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Speaker 1: noticed reading up and preparing for the podcast here when

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Speaker 1: we go to work in New South Wales cops we

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Speaker 1: go we've got a shift or we're going to work.

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Speaker 1: You guys call it a tour, like each day is

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Speaker 1: a tour. What now that conjures up images of Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you do a tour of war, you do a tour?

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Speaker 1: Is that? Do you think that reflects what policing is

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Speaker 1: New York is all about?

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Speaker 2: Well, I guess, being that there's thirty thousand New York

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Speaker 2: City Police officers, I guess that tour would make sense.

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Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, thirty thousand.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure the number now, but there's thirty thousand

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Speaker 2: when I was there.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's incredible. Like we've got New South Wales

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Speaker 1: Police I think between fifteen and twenty thousand, and that's

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Speaker 1: a pretty big police forces across the globe. But New

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Speaker 1: York eclipse is that clearly I want to talk about

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Speaker 1: your career. I'm fascinated about your career and what happens,

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Speaker 1: but I also want to talk about the September eleventh

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Speaker 1: when the planes crashed in the twin towers. Can you

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Speaker 1: just describe to me that day? And I've read your

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Speaker 1: piece that you wrote on it, and I just found

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Speaker 1: it fascinating how you started the day off because it

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Speaker 1: was just a typical day. Do you want to just

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Speaker 1: take the listener on that journey, just up until the

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Speaker 1: point where things changed dramatically forever.

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Speaker 2: Sure, it was a perfect day. The weather was perfect.

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Speaker 2: I woke up in the morning and z eating my

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Speaker 2: breakfast at home. I didn't have kids yet. I was married,

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Speaker 2: but didn't have kids' children yet, so my main concern

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Speaker 2: that day was to how to get fitted for a

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Speaker 2: suit for a wedding. So that was the first thing

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Speaker 2: I thought about when I woke up that morning. I

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Speaker 2: had no clue that within two hours everything I knew

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Speaker 2: would be turned upside down. And what I say and

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Speaker 2: whenever I talk about September eleventh is that I think

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Speaker 2: about it every single day. There has not a day

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Speaker 2: gone by in all these years I haven't thought about

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Speaker 2: it in one way or the other, not in a

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Speaker 2: bad way. It could be something simple, but I think

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Speaker 2: about it. Things trigger it. Construction crews, large crowds of

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Speaker 2: people in the city, low flying planes, a lot of

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Speaker 2: things that make me think about it. So after I breakfast,

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Speaker 2: I got on the bus went to work, and ironically,

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Speaker 2: my bus did past Twin Towers. I called the Twin

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Speaker 2: Towers because that when we grew up in New York City,

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Speaker 2: that's what we called it. We saw it from Queens

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Speaker 2: in the distance. So to us, that was the Twin Towers,

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Speaker 2: and that was a very New York thing. And there

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Speaker 2: was a shadow from the towers that went down low

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Speaker 2: Manhattan and you would walk past the shadow, and that

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Speaker 2: shadow made it pretty far. And my office was, well,

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Speaker 2: in the US it's a half mile I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: on kilometers, maybe point six point eight kilometers, yea, I

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Speaker 2: found correct on that. And then so the shadow made there.

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Speaker 2: I walked to the building and you know, I went

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Speaker 2: inside it and I was still thinking about my suit,

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Speaker 2: and I was thinking about, you know, my day. And

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Speaker 2: I was at a temporary assignment at the time, and

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Speaker 2: I really if September eleventh didn't happen, this assignment would

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Speaker 2: probably never even made it to my book. But so

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Speaker 2: I had a temporary assignment, and you know, I went

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Speaker 2: to the office and you know, the cop humor began

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Speaker 2: because that was very common in police work. As cop Humi.

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Speaker 2: There was twenty of us that were ready to get

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Speaker 2: promoted to sogeant. So we were all just always joking around,

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Speaker 2: talking about making sergeant. And I sat at the desk.

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Speaker 2: I read the newspaper. It was something trivial in it.

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Speaker 2: And then we used to do data entry. This is

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Speaker 2: going back to two thousand and one. You know, we

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Speaker 2: just did data entry. It was a basic assignment. So

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Speaker 2: I was ready to get promoted. So basically you did

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Speaker 2: this data entry until you got promoted to sergeant. I

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Speaker 2: was just a cop at the time. I didn't do investigation. Yet,

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Speaker 2: I didn't do anything. So you know, I sat at

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Speaker 2: the table with all the other cops and like I said,

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Speaker 2: we were doing the cop huma. We were joking. Everybody

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Speaker 2: was laughing, and guys started to go to their desks

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Speaker 2: one by one to do their data entry. And I

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Speaker 2: was getting ready to go and my lieutenant approached me

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Speaker 2: and he said, John, he goes, uh, you need to

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Speaker 2: get these reports going. You need more reports done. So

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Speaker 2: I was the depression. I was doing all my reports.

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Speaker 2: I'm like, yeah, boss, lieutenant, I'll take care of it,

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Speaker 2: no problem, get those reports done for you. So I

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Speaker 2: sat at my desk and I forgot about it. And

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Speaker 2: then I was doing my data entrying these reports. Kevin

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Speaker 2: but coming back to me, and I'm saying, you know,

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Speaker 2: what was he talking about? Why is he asking me

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Speaker 2: about these reports? I says, I know what I'm gonna do.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna wait till I get a closer to lunch time.

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna walk into the tenant's office. I'm gonna ask

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Speaker 2: him directly, what are you talking about with these reports?

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Speaker 2: What do you need done? I'm doing my job here.

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Speaker 2: I got a future here, future outside of this office.

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Speaker 2: So what are we going to do? And then I

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Speaker 2: was sitting at the desk and then I heard this

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Speaker 2: unbelievable sound. It was a boom, but it wasn't like

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Speaker 2: an explosion boom. I would describe it as someone took

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Speaker 2: something like a giant rock and throw it into a

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Speaker 2: dumpster and it echoed an echo boom. And I thought

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Speaker 2: a piece of construction equipment fell off the roof of

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Speaker 2: the building. Because there was construction going on, so we

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Speaker 2: all turns. I turned to the left and I could

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Speaker 2: see the window. And I turned to the left and

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Speaker 2: one of the sergeants was looked at the window and

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Speaker 2: he said, I do know exact words, but it was like,

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Speaker 2: oh my gosh, I can't believe this. You got to

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Speaker 2: see this, And he was pointing out the window, and

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Speaker 2: being in New York City police officer and living in

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Speaker 2: New York that is not calm and nobody gets, you know,

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Speaker 2: stunned by anything we see. That was like something we

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Speaker 2: all knew something was going on. Yeah, that's when everything

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Speaker 2: changed at that moment.

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Speaker 1: Okay, well, let's we'll stop it there because I want

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Speaker 1: to lead up and find a little bit more about

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Speaker 1: yourself before we talk more detail about that day. A

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Speaker 1: couple of things there. When I was reading your piece

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Speaker 1: about that day and you touched on it there the

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Speaker 1: cop humor, I felt like I was in the office.

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Speaker 1: I know exactly what that's about. You having a go

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Speaker 1: at your fellow workers, as we say in this country,

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Speaker 1: taking the piss out of each other, a bit of laugh,

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Speaker 1: bit of banter, getting about your stuff. There's usually some

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Speaker 1: bosses says something that you know, you dig in you

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Speaker 1: think what's said about so I fully understand that that

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Speaker 1: environment going in there. But let's wind it back a

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Speaker 1: little bit. Where did you grow up?

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Speaker 2: You grew up in New York, Yes, Queens, New York,

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Speaker 2: outside of Manhattan and could see the skyline from where

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Speaker 2: I grew up in Blue Carlor neighborhood.

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Speaker 1: And what steered you towards policing? Was it something you

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Speaker 1: always wanted to do or is it something you fell into.

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Speaker 2: I always knew it at a very young age. I

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Speaker 2: remember in kindergarten talking about it and I remember writing

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Speaker 2: about it. And I had two incidents that happens when

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Speaker 2: I was a kid that really propelled me to police work.

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Speaker 2: And one was actually the son of Sam investigation.

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Speaker 1: Because I remember that one. Yeah, yes, tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah he was, so you know, you're aware, a son

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Speaker 2: of Sandy Cereal killer, so very interesting person if anyone

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Speaker 2: doesn't know about him, he's very interesting serial killer. So

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Speaker 2: I was a little kid grown up in Queens and

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Speaker 2: a lot of people in my neighborhood were police officers.

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Speaker 2: It was a lot of cops find in sanitation. It

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Speaker 2: was just you know, we were the people that worked

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Speaker 2: in Manhattan but lived in Queen's and it was very

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Speaker 2: common in the seventies. So it was the summer of

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Speaker 2: seventy seven, and I remember that summer was a heat wave.

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Speaker 2: It was hot, so we were always outside. So I'd

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Speaker 2: sit on the stoop and you know, the adults would

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Speaker 2: come out and they'd say, all right, make sure everybody

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Speaker 2: goes inside. The son of Sam is around, or some

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Speaker 2: people called him the forty four caliber killer. So I

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Speaker 2: was only seven years old, and I'm like, I was

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Speaker 2: being told as a serial killer in my neighborhood. Not

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Speaker 2: only was he in the neighborhood, he murdered three people

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Speaker 2: walking distance from my house.

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Speaker 1: So you say, in the think of it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he he did it all over. A lot of

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Speaker 2: people don't know this, but he didn't, you know, hit

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Speaker 2: midtown Manhattan. He didn't hit the affluent areas. He went

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Speaker 2: to the out of burrows and almost like where he

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Speaker 2: grew up, because he grew up in the Bronx. And

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Speaker 2: you know, he shot two people in a car close

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Speaker 2: to my house, I know the exact location, and he

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Speaker 2: shot another woman walking. And these were the two in

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Speaker 2: the car and the woman walking with separate incidents and

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Speaker 2: close enough to where my parents were like, you know,

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Speaker 2: make sure you come in. You know, there's a something.

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Speaker 2: They didn't use the term serial killer. They you know,

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Speaker 2: in the seventies, adults talked to us like we were adults.

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Speaker 2: They were like the forty four caliber killers here. So

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Speaker 2: when the street lights go on and it gets dark,

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Speaker 2: get off the stoop and come inside.

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Speaker 1: So I grew up with that.

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Speaker 2: And then the newspapers would come into the house in

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Speaker 2: the morning and there would be a front page headline

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Speaker 2: of what this guy did, which was graphic, you know,

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Speaker 2: descriptions of people shot and cause. So at a young age,

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Speaker 2: I knew there was danger out there. And I remembered

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Speaker 2: when they caught him because I remembered my sister talking

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Speaker 2: about it. She was older than me and once again

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Speaker 2: talking about it, like, you know, I should understand this

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Speaker 2: at seven, and she said they caught there was a

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Speaker 2: gun in the car a parking ticket. So I knew

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Speaker 2: people were afraid of this guy, and I was amazed

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Speaker 2: that the cops did investigative work and they caught him.

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Speaker 2: And at a young age, I knew I saw a

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Speaker 2: good versus At a young age, I just saw that

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Speaker 2: as the cops went out and they caught that bad guy,

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Speaker 2: and it's real. It was on the news every day,

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Speaker 2: and it was in the newspapers and it was talked about.

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Speaker 2: And that really made me think about police work at

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Speaker 2: a young age.

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Speaker 1: Okay. It's funny how those things just register in your

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Speaker 1: mind and get locked in at that early age. But yeah,

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Speaker 1: I do remember that that crime. Okay, so you've decided

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Speaker 1: to join the police. My understanding new York Police, and

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Speaker 1: this is limited understanding, but just in my own experience,

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Speaker 1: I've spoken to people from New York and yeah, when

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Speaker 1: I've been traveling overseas and you mentioned you're a cop,

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Speaker 1: and there's two reactions you tend to get with people

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Speaker 1: from New York. They if you like you for it,

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Speaker 1: or they look at you and just sort of and

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Speaker 1: the energy just get sucked out of the room. It

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Speaker 1: seems to be a polarizing career in the city of

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Speaker 1: New York. Am I am I misreading it?

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Speaker 2: No, not at all, You're correct. Do you either get

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Speaker 2: people that want to hear everything, or they take a

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Speaker 2: step back and they look at you and you know

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Speaker 2: they're thinking about something and you just don't ask. It's

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Speaker 2: interesting at a barbecue when that happens, because we were

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Speaker 2: warned about that in the police academy. The instructors would

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Speaker 2: come out and say, we'll watch. When people know what

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Speaker 2: you do, you're going to get either no one wants

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Speaker 2: to talk to you, or we want to tell you

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Speaker 2: everything that went wrong and you're to blame. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Well, I picked that up in my travels that people

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Speaker 1: from New York definitely had a strong view one way

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Speaker 1: or the other about cops, either love them or hate them.

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Speaker 1: They didn't seem to be that in between. How old

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Speaker 1: were you when you joined the cops.

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Speaker 2: I was twenty three. I was in college, and like

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Speaker 2: I said, I knew I was going to do it.

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Speaker 2: A few of my friends I grew up with we

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Speaker 2: used to play stickball on the street and we should

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Speaker 2: just basically take a rub a ball with a stick,

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Speaker 2: you know, was a cross between a bat and a stick.

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Speaker 2: And we bought them and we just hit it and

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Speaker 2: that's what we played. And I think out of the

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Speaker 2: six of us, four of us became cops. So I

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Speaker 2: kind of knew it. And I was twenty three years old.

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Speaker 2: I had one more year in college, and I just said,

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Speaker 2: you know, I knew the PD was going to call me.

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Speaker 2: So I went into the NYPD in nineteen eighty three.

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Speaker 1: The training. Did you enjoy the training? Did you like

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Speaker 1: it's I talked from my experience in policing. I was

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Speaker 1: working in the building trade and then went into policing.

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Speaker 1: And I know the moment I hit the academy, it's

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Speaker 1: a glove that just fitted. I thought, I found what

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Speaker 1: I want to do it. It just felt right from

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Speaker 1: the moment I walked in the door. How did you

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Speaker 1: find it?

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Speaker 2: Yes, I found it that way. Also, I liked the discipline.

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Speaker 2: I like the quasi military structure. I didn't mind being

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Speaker 2: yelled at if you weren't standard street. You know, I

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Speaker 2: learned how to salute and stand street and standard attention,

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Speaker 2: and you know, they made a standard attention for sometimes

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Speaker 2: thirty minutes, and you know, I think they were at

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Speaker 2: times just massive wordess. But the times we were just

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Speaker 2: being goofballs and they were like, Okay, now you're going

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Speaker 2: to stand attention to thirty minutes. And I understood the

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Speaker 2: discipline of it, and I liked the academy. I had

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Speaker 2: come from college, so the work in the books was okay,

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Speaker 2: and the physical I was ready for that too, So

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Speaker 2: I enjoyed the police academy.

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Speaker 1: Did you what was your family's attitude to join the police,

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Speaker 1: Like policing is across the world, is a dangerous occupation

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Speaker 1: in New York, I think it probably arises a little bit,

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Speaker 1: a little bit hard. Were they happy with you going

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Speaker 1: down that path?

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Speaker 2: Well, my mom was not. She was wanted me to

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Speaker 2: do other things, and I kept telling her, Mom, this

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Speaker 2: is what I want to do. And I'm sure she

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Speaker 2: knew because I was watching all these cop shows at

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Speaker 2: such a young age and talking about police work, So

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Speaker 2: I think she always knew anyway up against it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: she just had to say what she needed to say.

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Speaker 2: My uncle was a police officer, and when I was

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Speaker 2: a little kid, you know, we'd sit around at the

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Speaker 2: Italian dinners and you're a cop, let me see your gun,

339
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Speaker 2: and my uncle say, sit out, kid. And you know,

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Speaker 2: my uncle never talked about it. He was that generation

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Speaker 2: they just didn't talk about it. And then my cousin

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Speaker 2: became a cop, so there was two members of the

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Speaker 2: service in my family. So I my father went. When

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Speaker 2: the NYPD first called me, I said, Dad, I got

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Speaker 2: this letter. The NYPD wants me to come down for

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Speaker 2: an investigation. My dad's like, all right, let's get you

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Speaker 2: a suit. You're going on some interviews. So my dad

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Speaker 2: was very pro for it.

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Speaker 1: He was for it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he was all I guess he didn't want

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Speaker 2: to support me, and he was happy with it.

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Speaker 1: So okay. So you get through the academy and you

353
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Speaker 1: get out of the police academy, you think you know

354
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Speaker 1: what you're doing, because there's a lot of skills you've

355
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Speaker 1: got to learn. You've got to learn your legislation, your

356
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Speaker 1: powers of arrests, you know, handling people, weapons training. There's

357
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Speaker 1: a whole lot that you come out with from the

358
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Speaker 1: academy and you think you're ready to hit the streets.

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Speaker 1: But if your experience is like my experience, when you

360
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Speaker 1: walk out on the streets, that's when you actually start

361
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Speaker 1: start learning. And I would imagine in New York it's

362
00:16:25,680 --> 00:16:29,640
Speaker 1: learning on steroids. What was your first times when you

363
00:16:29,960 --> 00:16:32,680
Speaker 1: went out walk the streets as a New York cop.

364
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Speaker 2: Well, you're correct, you know, the academy could teach you

365
00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:38,200
Speaker 2: everything in a book. They could show you movies, they

366
00:16:38,200 --> 00:16:41,120
Speaker 2: could have professionals up there talking and they could do

367
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Speaker 2: scenarios and you could do handcuffing everything. But they tell

368
00:16:44,720 --> 00:16:46,200
Speaker 2: you you're going to learn everything on the street, and

369
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Speaker 2: you're going to learn fast, and I was surprised at

370
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Speaker 2: how fast it came. There's no real transition. They say

371
00:16:54,600 --> 00:16:57,000
Speaker 2: there's a training and this and that, but you know,

372
00:16:57,040 --> 00:16:59,320
Speaker 2: you're working with other carps and other supervisors. You know,

373
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Speaker 2: if the crap it's a fan, they're not going to go, okay, well, rookie,

374
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Speaker 2: you stand there, We're going to take care of this.

375
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Speaker 2: A lot of times, you know, you're the you're the cop,

376
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Speaker 2: and even the people on the street, they don't want

377
00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:10,480
Speaker 2: to hear that you just got there. If they have

378
00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:12,119
Speaker 2: a problem, they're going to get in your face and

379
00:17:12,160 --> 00:17:14,800
Speaker 2: be like, officers, I just got robbed. You can't tell

380
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Speaker 2: them I'm a rookie. I just got here. You can't

381
00:17:17,320 --> 00:17:18,560
Speaker 2: do that. You got to handle it.

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah, very very much. So like there is no you're

383
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Speaker 1: out there, you wear that uniform and you're you're now

384
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Speaker 1: the cop. You can't put put your hand up there.

385
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Speaker 1: Where were you first stationed and what was the type

386
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Speaker 1: of work that you were doing first up?

387
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Speaker 2: Well, everybody goes to patrol right outside the It's not

388
00:17:35,640 --> 00:17:37,520
Speaker 2: like the movies. Movies got it all wrong. And it's

389
00:17:37,600 --> 00:17:39,639
Speaker 2: in the NYPD. I could speak for that. Everybody goes

390
00:17:39,720 --> 00:17:41,440
Speaker 2: right to patrol. You don't really get in a car.

391
00:17:41,480 --> 00:17:42,879
Speaker 2: It's there's so many of us. They put you on

392
00:17:42,880 --> 00:17:44,919
Speaker 2: foot posts, so they give you these crappy posts that

393
00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:49,680
Speaker 2: nobody else wants to take. Guarding the prisoners, bad accidents.

394
00:17:49,720 --> 00:17:51,480
Speaker 2: You got to wait. I mean you mentioned in your

395
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Speaker 2: book the crime scene you're always standing outside the tape,

396
00:17:54,320 --> 00:17:57,480
Speaker 2: not really inside. Yeah, you never really get inside the tape,

397
00:17:57,480 --> 00:17:59,639
Speaker 2: but you do. But you're standing outside the tape, and

398
00:17:59,680 --> 00:18:01,120
Speaker 2: you know, people are walking up to you and asking

399
00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:02,440
Speaker 2: you a questions. You're like, I don't know. I was

400
00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:03,920
Speaker 2: just put at the tape edge. Just don't go through.

401
00:18:04,000 --> 00:18:07,520
Speaker 2: I don't have an answer for you. And so the

402
00:18:07,560 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 2: first week I was there, I don't think I saw

403
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Speaker 2: a car. I saw my sergeant, and you know, like

404
00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:15,879
Speaker 2: the first day or two, I think it was my

405
00:18:16,240 --> 00:18:17,639
Speaker 2: In the second day I was there, I was on

406
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Speaker 2: a foot post and I witnessed a fight in the street.

407
00:18:20,720 --> 00:18:22,399
Speaker 2: But it was a very busy foot post, and you know,

408
00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:24,639
Speaker 2: this was everybody gets on the train there and they

409
00:18:24,640 --> 00:18:26,320
Speaker 2: head into the city. And I witnessed a fight and

410
00:18:26,359 --> 00:18:27,760
Speaker 2: I was like, all right, guys, you go this way,

411
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Speaker 2: you go that way. And then one guy got on

412
00:18:30,040 --> 00:18:32,840
Speaker 2: his bicycle and left the other guy, you know, in

413
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Speaker 2: front of everybody, because a crowd gathered, and I guess

414
00:18:35,160 --> 00:18:37,320
Speaker 2: the guy wanted to show up for the crowd. You know.

415
00:18:37,800 --> 00:18:39,560
Speaker 2: He rips his shirt open and he's telling me to

416
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Speaker 2: shoot him, and I'm like, you know, wow, this this

417
00:18:44,200 --> 00:18:47,159
Speaker 2: came fast, you know. So I'm like, you know, I

418
00:18:47,240 --> 00:18:49,720
Speaker 2: was in college waiting on tables a year ago, and

419
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Speaker 2: this is what I'm doing right now. So the guy's

420
00:18:51,840 --> 00:18:54,159
Speaker 2: yelling at me to shoot shoot him, and then he

421
00:18:54,200 --> 00:18:56,280
Speaker 2: had already I think, hit somebody with a garbage pail,

422
00:18:56,640 --> 00:18:59,040
Speaker 2: you know, metal garbage pail. So it was an interesting situation.

423
00:18:59,359 --> 00:19:02,520
Speaker 2: So I actually stepped back because I'm thinking really fast,

424
00:19:02,560 --> 00:19:05,560
Speaker 2: like wow, you know, there's no academy instructor here. This

425
00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:07,639
Speaker 2: is on me to handle it. So he took a

426
00:19:07,640 --> 00:19:09,520
Speaker 2: step towards me. I took out my night stick, and

427
00:19:09,520 --> 00:19:11,080
Speaker 2: you know, I did the whole academy pose, but it

428
00:19:11,080 --> 00:19:14,760
Speaker 2: behind my and my mind's race and saying, well, I'm

429
00:19:14,760 --> 00:19:17,439
Speaker 2: not obviously not gonna shoot him, but if he steps

430
00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:19,639
Speaker 2: close enough then I have to. I will crack him

431
00:19:19,680 --> 00:19:21,199
Speaker 2: with this stick, which I really didn't want to do.

432
00:19:21,320 --> 00:19:24,800
Speaker 2: The second day I was there, and then I think

433
00:19:24,800 --> 00:19:28,120
Speaker 2: he realized that he was going to get hurt, and

434
00:19:28,160 --> 00:19:30,639
Speaker 2: so he just walked away. And all these other cops

435
00:19:30,640 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 2: did come by because I think somebody might have told them,

436
00:19:32,880 --> 00:19:34,399
Speaker 2: because there was other cops on the footposts, all the

437
00:19:34,440 --> 00:19:36,679
Speaker 2: other rookies, and I was explaining it and they were like,

438
00:19:36,720 --> 00:19:38,800
Speaker 2: all right, it's good, okay, have a good day by

439
00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:41,680
Speaker 2: And then five minutes later people are asking me directions

440
00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,000
Speaker 2: like this never happened. So things get thrown at you

441
00:19:44,119 --> 00:19:46,200
Speaker 2: very fast, and you have to handle it very fast.

442
00:19:46,760 --> 00:19:50,040
Speaker 1: You need to understand, Yeah, the way you describe that,

443
00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:53,000
Speaker 1: like it's a significant thing, it's an incident that you've

444
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,360
Speaker 1: been confronted with so early in your career. But you're

445
00:19:55,440 --> 00:19:57,760
Speaker 1: quite right. The other cops just, well, that's just to

446
00:19:57,840 --> 00:20:01,520
Speaker 1: die in the die in the place. Sure, But and

447
00:20:01,560 --> 00:20:04,159
Speaker 1: it is about ye know, if you go in and

448
00:20:04,440 --> 00:20:07,320
Speaker 1: I think what you demonstrate that they're policing isn't black

449
00:20:07,359 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 1: and white, Like you've got to be able to navigate

450
00:20:10,520 --> 00:20:13,280
Speaker 1: your way through situations like yeah, if someone came back,

451
00:20:13,320 --> 00:20:15,119
Speaker 1: you're like that you're entitled to hit him. But if

452
00:20:15,119 --> 00:20:17,520
Speaker 1: you can de escalate, that's the type of thing that

453
00:20:17,720 --> 00:20:19,520
Speaker 1: you've got to try to do as a police officer.

454
00:20:19,840 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 1: Did you have role models where the people that you

455
00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,960
Speaker 1: looked up to and thought, that's the type of cop

456
00:20:24,960 --> 00:20:26,960
Speaker 1: I want to be, Like, I'm gonna what he or

457
00:20:27,000 --> 00:20:28,960
Speaker 1: she's doing, That's who I want to learn from.

458
00:20:29,440 --> 00:20:32,159
Speaker 2: Yeah, because there's so many, you know, members of the

459
00:20:32,520 --> 00:20:35,120
Speaker 2: I think thirty of us went to the precinct from

460
00:20:35,160 --> 00:20:37,359
Speaker 2: the academy so and there was already probably one hundred

461
00:20:37,640 --> 00:20:40,680
Speaker 2: something already there. So you start to see people's personalities,

462
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 2: and people come from all walks of life. In the NYPD,

463
00:20:43,880 --> 00:20:46,080
Speaker 2: you get the business type of person, you get the tough,

464
00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:48,840
Speaker 2: gay type of person, you get the social worker, you

465
00:20:48,880 --> 00:20:52,560
Speaker 2: get all tapes. So I started to notice who really

466
00:20:52,560 --> 00:20:55,640
Speaker 2: could de escalate a situation. I noticed who could talk

467
00:20:55,720 --> 00:20:58,840
Speaker 2: somebody down. I noticed who could, you know, see a

468
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 2: situation and see something wrong. There was times I worked

469
00:21:01,560 --> 00:21:03,639
Speaker 2: with some offices that maybe didn't have a lot of

470
00:21:03,680 --> 00:21:06,280
Speaker 2: time on but one or two years, and they would

471
00:21:06,280 --> 00:21:09,199
Speaker 2: catch something very quickly, like catch something as in, we

472
00:21:09,240 --> 00:21:11,400
Speaker 2: had an accident on the street, and all these people

473
00:21:11,440 --> 00:21:13,919
Speaker 2: started walking up to me talking to me. So I

474
00:21:14,000 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: was surprised, like, there's a car accident, Why are people

475
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,679
Speaker 2: interested in talking to me? And we sit in the

476
00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:19,679
Speaker 2: car and he goes roll the window up. He goes,

477
00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:22,000
Speaker 2: they're all paid. This guy's paying them to be witnesses.

478
00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:24,280
Speaker 2: I would have never thought of that, but this cop

479
00:21:24,320 --> 00:21:26,479
Speaker 2: with two years on just caught onto it. All right,

480
00:21:26,480 --> 00:21:28,639
Speaker 2: they're paid witnesses. So I'm rolling the window down and

481
00:21:28,680 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 2: I'm thinking, you know, he didn't tell me how to

482
00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:32,960
Speaker 2: handle this, So I'm taking their names and writing it down.

483
00:21:32,960 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 2: After about the third person, I'm like, I think I

484
00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:37,240
Speaker 2: got enough witnesses. So I realized that, all right, I

485
00:21:37,320 --> 00:21:38,639
Speaker 2: just got to write these names down to make it

486
00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,120
Speaker 2: look good. If this motorist wants to pay them, that's

487
00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:42,480
Speaker 2: on him, but I don't have to put them in

488
00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 2: the report. We're just making the report for the accident.

489
00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:49,600
Speaker 2: So I saw talent at places that every day within

490
00:21:49,680 --> 00:21:52,720
Speaker 2: police work, and you learn from those situations, and that

491
00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:55,239
Speaker 2: helps you throughout your career because you will handle that

492
00:21:55,280 --> 00:21:57,200
Speaker 2: same situation again. And I've been on the other end

493
00:21:57,200 --> 00:21:59,240
Speaker 2: when I was the one driving, and I saw the

494
00:21:59,280 --> 00:22:02,600
Speaker 2: paid witnesses step forward, and I'm like, oh, that's interesting. Great,

495
00:22:02,760 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: you want to help out a total stranger and give

496
00:22:04,600 --> 00:22:06,880
Speaker 2: a statement. Okay, I'll take your statement.

497
00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's interesting. But what you said there, you learn

498
00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,560
Speaker 1: and you build up your experience. I found that I

499
00:22:14,040 --> 00:22:16,280
Speaker 1: learned something in police in every single day I came

500
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:20,320
Speaker 1: to work. And the more experience you had when you

501
00:22:20,359 --> 00:22:22,840
Speaker 1: were confronted with something, it's not sort of and I

502
00:22:22,840 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: think this is where you see these battle hardened old

503
00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:29,399
Speaker 1: cops that nothing's going to FaZe and because they've probably

504
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:32,119
Speaker 1: been there, done that soon it before. And that's just

505
00:22:32,160 --> 00:22:34,520
Speaker 1: in that experience that you've built up and all the

506
00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,439
Speaker 1: little little I won't say tricks, but the instinct you

507
00:22:38,480 --> 00:22:41,000
Speaker 1: have for situations that you pick up the longer you

508
00:22:41,720 --> 00:22:47,560
Speaker 1: spend in the job. Did you have a direction you

509
00:22:47,600 --> 00:22:49,680
Speaker 1: wanted to go in policing? Was there? Did you want

510
00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: to go into investigations or tactical or what was your interest?

511
00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:57,840
Speaker 2: Early on? AWD, you know, it's it, that's it. We

512
00:22:57,920 --> 00:23:00,960
Speaker 2: were doing our work and then we would handle reports.

513
00:23:00,960 --> 00:23:03,520
Speaker 2: We'd make reports, so we go to situations and a

514
00:23:03,520 --> 00:23:05,480
Speaker 2: lot of times I would take these reports for you know,

515
00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:07,840
Speaker 2: like a really bad robbery that just happened and somebody

516
00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:09,760
Speaker 2: was assaulted nothing like murder or nothing like that. I

517
00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:13,000
Speaker 2: would take these reports and I would call my supervisor say, yeah,

518
00:23:13,000 --> 00:23:15,399
Speaker 2: this is a legit robbery. This person was robbed, they're injured.

519
00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:17,520
Speaker 2: Here's the description, here's that. And I would take the report.

520
00:23:17,520 --> 00:23:19,679
Speaker 2: And so I was like, all right, great, your report's done.

521
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 2: All right, drop it off in the priests and bring

522
00:23:21,160 --> 00:23:23,760
Speaker 2: it to the detectives upstairs. And I would go in

523
00:23:23,800 --> 00:23:25,680
Speaker 2: and I would bring it to the detectives upstairs. And

524
00:23:25,800 --> 00:23:27,560
Speaker 2: you know, it was it was like the movies to me.

525
00:23:27,600 --> 00:23:30,119
Speaker 2: I walked into this detective squad and it was the

526
00:23:30,200 --> 00:23:32,720
Speaker 2: old fan blowing. You know, no one cleaned the fan

527
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:35,320
Speaker 2: in five years. There was you know, a couple of

528
00:23:35,359 --> 00:23:37,760
Speaker 2: typewriters typing away because this was the nineties. There was

529
00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:40,600
Speaker 2: a couple of giant computers. And then you got a

530
00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:43,119
Speaker 2: cop what is you know, a detective with his you

531
00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:45,000
Speaker 2: know tie half on, and he's looking at you like,

532
00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:47,960
Speaker 2: why are you coming in this here to talk to us?

533
00:23:48,119 --> 00:23:49,520
Speaker 2: And yeah, you were a little nervous, but you can't

534
00:23:49,520 --> 00:23:51,240
Speaker 2: show it to them. See you hand them the report

535
00:23:51,280 --> 00:23:53,040
Speaker 2: and they're like, robbery kid, huh what do you got?

536
00:23:53,080 --> 00:23:55,160
Speaker 2: And they're like oh wow. And then all of a sudden,

537
00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:56,880
Speaker 2: I would hear them talking and I'm like, I think

538
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:59,880
Speaker 2: these guys already know who did this robbery. They would

539
00:24:00,119 --> 00:24:02,160
Speaker 2: look at the report and go I had a feeling.

540
00:24:02,200 --> 00:24:03,880
Speaker 2: I watched their wheel spin and I'm like, They're gonna

541
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,480
Speaker 2: go out and grab this guy now. And I'm like, wow,

542
00:24:06,520 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 2: you know what these detectives. They're doing something here that's

543
00:24:09,160 --> 00:24:12,159
Speaker 2: beyond patrol. And I knew very early on I was

544
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:13,440
Speaker 2: going into detective bureau.

545
00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,800
Speaker 1: Yeah. The way you describe that, John, it is so

546
00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: similar to my experience. You're young, you're keen, you're in uniform,

547
00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:24,760
Speaker 1: as we call it over here, and you get that

548
00:24:24,840 --> 00:24:26,760
Speaker 1: report and you've got to get the detective's office, and

549
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,600
Speaker 1: it was intimidating just to walk in there. Why it

550
00:24:29,680 --> 00:24:33,480
Speaker 1: was intimidating, I don't know, but at first they're the

551
00:24:33,520 --> 00:24:37,080
Speaker 1: detectives very much. So you just described what. I'd walk

552
00:24:37,119 --> 00:24:40,520
Speaker 1: into the office of typewriters. There'd be ashtrays, they'd be

553
00:24:40,560 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: people with their feet up on the desk. Sometimes they'd

554
00:24:43,680 --> 00:24:45,680
Speaker 1: be playing cards. If you go in there at lunchtime

555
00:24:45,720 --> 00:24:47,920
Speaker 1: and it's almost look at you, what what do you want?

556
00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,480
Speaker 1: And you walk out you feel humiliated, but quite curious

557
00:24:51,520 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 1: about what's going on in there, so I understand where

558
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:58,280
Speaker 1: you're coming from, but it has has an attraction. Okay,

559
00:24:58,520 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 1: let's talk about well fast forwar, because I want to

560
00:25:00,640 --> 00:25:02,840
Speaker 1: come back and talk in depth, and we'll probably do

561
00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:05,679
Speaker 1: that in part two about your career and different different

562
00:25:05,720 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 1: things that you saw and did, and investigations that you're on,

563
00:25:08,760 --> 00:25:11,800
Speaker 1: in particular missing persons. I'm very curious about having a

564
00:25:11,880 --> 00:25:14,400
Speaker 1: chat with you about that. How long had you been

565
00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:16,640
Speaker 1: in the cops before September.

566
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:19,320
Speaker 2: Eleventh, ninety three to two one? Nine years?

567
00:25:19,480 --> 00:25:22,639
Speaker 1: Nine years? Okay, so almost at that veteran stage. You're

568
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,280
Speaker 1: in an experienced police officer. You've been there, done that,

569
00:25:25,720 --> 00:25:28,679
Speaker 1: seeing things. You told us at the start of the

570
00:25:29,000 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: podcast when you heard that explosion, then you saw someone

571
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:34,639
Speaker 1: look out and call you to the window. Can you

572
00:25:34,680 --> 00:25:37,400
Speaker 1: take us from there? Because to get the first hand

573
00:25:37,560 --> 00:25:40,800
Speaker 1: we watched it over here obviously, as the whole world did,

574
00:25:41,040 --> 00:25:43,080
Speaker 1: but to have someone that was on the ground and

575
00:25:43,160 --> 00:25:45,879
Speaker 1: experience what was going in there, the chaos and the

576
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:48,280
Speaker 1: panic and everything else that goes into play on that day,

577
00:25:48,440 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: just take us through it if you could.

578
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,040
Speaker 2: Sure I could take it through it. I remember that day.

579
00:25:52,080 --> 00:25:55,240
Speaker 2: I remember everything about it. There's like every little minute detail.

580
00:25:55,440 --> 00:25:56,840
Speaker 2: Maybe because I was rating at the time and I

581
00:25:56,920 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 2: wrote about it, but either way, I could remember that

582
00:25:58,880 --> 00:26:02,119
Speaker 2: entire day. I remembered when I heard that explosion, that

583
00:26:02,160 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: sound didn't sound natural, not that explosion sound should, but

584
00:26:04,960 --> 00:26:08,920
Speaker 2: it definitely sounded something was really off with this. And

585
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,520
Speaker 2: when the other supervisor yelled at the window, of course,

586
00:26:12,600 --> 00:26:14,320
Speaker 2: human nature, you've got to go see what's going on.

587
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:16,920
Speaker 2: So I went to the window and I saw one

588
00:26:16,920 --> 00:26:19,000
Speaker 2: of the towers and I saw a hole in it,

589
00:26:19,880 --> 00:26:24,000
Speaker 2: and I saw it looked like destruction, like a black

590
00:26:24,000 --> 00:26:26,399
Speaker 2: hole in there. And one the first thing I noticed

591
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: was there was papers shooting out of the hole in

592
00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:31,320
Speaker 2: the building. Not only were they shooting out, they were

593
00:26:31,480 --> 00:26:33,879
Speaker 2: shooting straight out and going straight up. I guess the

594
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:36,400
Speaker 2: wind or something. I don't know. I didn't see any

595
00:26:36,400 --> 00:26:39,560
Speaker 2: flames yet. So I looked at it and I said,

596
00:26:39,880 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: this is no accident. This is a bomb. Somebody put

597
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,719
Speaker 2: a bomb in that building, because you know, don't forget,

598
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: you know, somebody put a bomb in the building in

599
00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,560
Speaker 2: nineteen ninety two in the basement. So we were told

600
00:26:49,600 --> 00:26:52,160
Speaker 2: about that in the academy. That happened and wasn't far

601
00:26:52,200 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 2: off from people's memory at that time, so I knew

602
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,399
Speaker 2: it was no accident. I said, what do I gotta do.

603
00:26:57,480 --> 00:26:59,320
Speaker 2: The first thing I said is this was two thousand

604
00:26:59,320 --> 00:27:00,800
Speaker 2: and one. I didn't I have a cell phone. So

605
00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:03,280
Speaker 2: if any of you listeners know what it's like to

606
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 2: not have a cell phone, it's a different time. It

607
00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:07,399
Speaker 2: was no cell phones. I had to go to a payphone,

608
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: and the only payphone was downstairs in the lobby. Because

609
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:12,040
Speaker 2: my wife had worked in Midtown Manhattan, I knew I

610
00:27:12,080 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: had to call her because you know, I would assume

611
00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 2: something else would happen. So I went to the payphone,

612
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 2: and you know, old school, I took the court or

613
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:21,879
Speaker 2: put it in the phone dial toub work number, and

614
00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,280
Speaker 2: she got on the phone like, Hi, I'm like, somebody

615
00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:27,919
Speaker 2: just put a bomb in the tower. So she paused

616
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:29,680
Speaker 2: and she said what I said, somebody put a bomb

617
00:27:29,680 --> 00:27:31,000
Speaker 2: in tower and I didn't know it was yet, I

618
00:27:31,080 --> 00:27:34,160
Speaker 2: just assumed it was. And she's like, oh my gosh,

619
00:27:34,160 --> 00:27:36,320
Speaker 2: what happened. So she had the TV on and it

620
00:27:36,359 --> 00:27:38,800
Speaker 2: was live on TV. Now I couldn't watch TV because

621
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:41,120
Speaker 2: we didn't have one there and nobody had cell phones yet.

622
00:27:41,160 --> 00:27:44,600
Speaker 2: Nobody had iPhones. So I remember what I told her,

623
00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:46,440
Speaker 2: and this will be a big part to the story.

624
00:27:47,040 --> 00:27:50,520
Speaker 2: I said, Okay, I'm very close to the towers. I said,

625
00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:54,040
Speaker 2: they're going to send us there. After I'm done at

626
00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:56,720
Speaker 2: the towers, I'll call you back. And I left it

627
00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 2: at that, and then I went back upstairs, walked up

628
00:28:00,440 --> 00:28:03,840
Speaker 2: the stairs, and I went back and then I saw

629
00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,200
Speaker 2: more people at the window. Other people from the building

630
00:28:06,280 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 2: had I guess we had one of the better views,

631
00:28:07,960 --> 00:28:09,840
Speaker 2: if you could call it, because we were directly in

632
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:13,120
Speaker 2: front of it and you had to look straight and up.

633
00:28:13,200 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 2: I think I was on the ninth of the eleventh

634
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:18,240
Speaker 2: floor of my building. And then as I'm looking out,

635
00:28:18,440 --> 00:28:23,120
Speaker 2: I see something coming from across the sky. And well

636
00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:25,440
Speaker 2: before that, I had another part to the story. As

637
00:28:25,480 --> 00:28:29,720
Speaker 2: I was watching the first tower, I saw stuff falling

638
00:28:29,760 --> 00:28:32,240
Speaker 2: from the building, and I was like, wow, debris falling.

639
00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:34,280
Speaker 2: And I start a helicopter. So I'm like, what's falling

640
00:28:34,320 --> 00:28:37,040
Speaker 2: from the towers? And as I watched closer. I wrote

641
00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:38,480
Speaker 2: about this a lot in the book, and I got

642
00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,239
Speaker 2: a little more elaborate. There was no debris falling. I

643
00:28:41,320 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: was watching people jumping from the towers and I just

644
00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:48,200
Speaker 2: couldn't believe that that's what I was witnessing, and I

645
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,600
Speaker 2: was like, Wow, that's when reality hit. I says, there

646
00:28:50,600 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 2: are people in those towers that are not going to

647
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 2: make it home today. So I had to step back.

648
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 2: I couldn't watch any further. I wrote more about it

649
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:01,440
Speaker 2: in the book, some of the images that I still

650
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:01,920
Speaker 2: think about.

651
00:29:02,880 --> 00:29:05,360
Speaker 1: Just on that. I've pulled out a quote from your

652
00:29:05,360 --> 00:29:09,120
Speaker 1: book about that, because it's as bout as confronting as

653
00:29:09,280 --> 00:29:11,400
Speaker 1: a thing that you could see, and as a cop,

654
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,200
Speaker 1: you've seen a lot of stuff, but that I just

655
00:29:14,280 --> 00:29:18,080
Speaker 1: read out a short, short passage here from your piece

656
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,360
Speaker 1: you wrote about. I soon horrified that what I was witnessing.

657
00:29:21,480 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 1: People were jumping from the tower. Tiny figures with arms

658
00:29:24,320 --> 00:29:27,960
Speaker 1: and legs flailing, were hurtling themselves out of the smoke

659
00:29:28,000 --> 00:29:31,040
Speaker 1: filled windows. Some looked as if they were doing somersaults

660
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:33,120
Speaker 1: down the side of the building. I was now frozen

661
00:29:33,160 --> 00:29:37,400
Speaker 1: with a dead stare at those towers. Yeah, what can

662
00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,760
Speaker 1: you say about that? This is something people shouldn't see.

663
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:46,240
Speaker 2: No, it's definitely not something people's and it's nothing I

664
00:29:46,320 --> 00:29:51,880
Speaker 2: ever believed they would see. It was unbelievable, and I

665
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,560
Speaker 2: didn't know it was going to continue. So I was

666
00:29:54,600 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 2: watching that, and you know, it's something that you just

667
00:29:58,120 --> 00:30:01,240
Speaker 2: can't it's already in your memory and it's like an accident.

668
00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,960
Speaker 2: You just got to eventually stop looking. So I went

669
00:30:03,960 --> 00:30:05,640
Speaker 2: back to my desk and I sat down and I

670
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:07,680
Speaker 2: just tried to get my composure. And then I said

671
00:30:07,680 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 2: to myself, this is the same desk that only twenty

672
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:11,680
Speaker 2: minutes ago, I was ready to talk to my lieutenant

673
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:12,959
Speaker 2: about some bull crap report.

674
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 1: I'm like, that was a big issue in your life.

675
00:30:15,520 --> 00:30:18,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, everything, yeah, yeah, everything just got turned upside down.

676
00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,920
Speaker 2: And so sure enough, I went back to the window.

677
00:30:22,000 --> 00:30:23,560
Speaker 2: And as I got back to the window, what I

678
00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 2: was saying earlier is I saw something coming from across

679
00:30:26,400 --> 00:30:28,800
Speaker 2: the sky. As I looked out the window and the

680
00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:30,960
Speaker 2: towers were in front of me. So I did not

681
00:30:31,040 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 2: see the actual plane, but I saw I don't know

682
00:30:33,120 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 2: what it's called, when the wings have the uh the

683
00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,640
Speaker 2: jet stream going down and it makes like a smoke line.

684
00:30:41,800 --> 00:30:44,000
Speaker 2: I saw the two smoke lines coming across the city,

685
00:30:44,040 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: and I was like, I went to say, what is

686
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:48,880
Speaker 2: And before I said that, I saw it hit the

687
00:30:48,880 --> 00:30:51,720
Speaker 2: rear of the building. And this was the other tower

688
00:30:51,760 --> 00:30:55,959
Speaker 2: that wasn't struck the second plot second plane, and not

689
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:59,080
Speaker 2: only did it hit the building, it went into it

690
00:30:59,200 --> 00:31:02,040
Speaker 2: and shot out the the front. I saw pieces of

691
00:31:02,040 --> 00:31:05,480
Speaker 2: it shootout the front, and I was frozen. And then

692
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:08,040
Speaker 2: with strangers, I didn't hear anything, and then all of

693
00:31:08,080 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 2: a sudden, I heard the boom again, different sounding this time,

694
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:15,560
Speaker 2: but I heard it. And the shockwave hit like five

695
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:19,040
Speaker 2: seconds later, and the building my windows were shaking where

696
00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: I was standing, and I was like everything. I would

697
00:31:23,320 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 2: describe it like a movie that you could not hit pause.

698
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:27,760
Speaker 2: It was like I was being forced to watch a

699
00:31:27,800 --> 00:31:29,440
Speaker 2: movie I didn't want to sit through and I could

700
00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:31,760
Speaker 2: not hit pause. That's the best I could describe it.

701
00:31:32,400 --> 00:31:35,239
Speaker 2: And I looked to the left, I looked at the right.

702
00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,320
Speaker 2: I said, we gotta get out of this building. I said,

703
00:31:38,520 --> 00:31:41,239
Speaker 2: because I would assume that something else was coming, and

704
00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,400
Speaker 2: I still didn't know what it was. Even though I

705
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:45,080
Speaker 2: saw I could to explain it now at the time,

706
00:31:45,120 --> 00:31:48,120
Speaker 2: I really didn't comprehend it. It wasn't until later, so

707
00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:50,800
Speaker 2: I went to the stairs. I knew enough not to

708
00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 2: take the elevator. I learned enough. You don't get in

709
00:31:53,080 --> 00:31:55,880
Speaker 2: elevators in bad situation. The last thing I wanted to

710
00:31:55,960 --> 00:31:59,160
Speaker 2: do is stuck in an elevator. So I went to

711
00:31:59,200 --> 00:32:01,480
Speaker 2: the steps, and I remembered there was two detectives and

712
00:32:02,000 --> 00:32:04,840
Speaker 2: they had high heels on and they were moving it

713
00:32:04,880 --> 00:32:07,080
Speaker 2: down those stairs, and I ran with them, and I

714
00:32:07,320 --> 00:32:09,800
Speaker 2: remember touching the handrail a few times, but I don't

715
00:32:09,840 --> 00:32:11,080
Speaker 2: remember touching the steps.

716
00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:11,239
Speaker 1: Man.

717
00:32:11,320 --> 00:32:15,120
Speaker 2: I went down those nine flights in record speed, and

718
00:32:15,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 2: I got to the front of the building, and then

719
00:32:17,040 --> 00:32:19,320
Speaker 2: I ran past that pay phone I was at and

720
00:32:19,360 --> 00:32:23,200
Speaker 2: then I saw I saw like chaos in front of

721
00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:25,360
Speaker 2: the building. I saw people running in different directions, and

722
00:32:25,960 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: I saw some cops briefly talking and running towards the towers,

723
00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:32,400
Speaker 2: and I saw other cops dumbfounded. I saw some police

724
00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:35,280
Speaker 2: recruits just not knowing what to do. And there was

725
00:32:35,280 --> 00:32:38,080
Speaker 2: a police recruit and she sat on the floor and cried,

726
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 2: and I walked over to her. I said, just get up,

727
00:32:41,800 --> 00:32:44,160
Speaker 2: just stand up, and that's all I could tell. I

728
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:45,720
Speaker 2: had nothing else to tell her. I didn't know what

729
00:32:45,760 --> 00:32:47,479
Speaker 2: to say, so I really know what to do. When

730
00:32:47,480 --> 00:32:50,400
Speaker 2: I was watching the towers, and it was, like I said,

731
00:32:50,440 --> 00:32:53,160
Speaker 2: there was mobs of people besides the building I was in.

732
00:32:53,240 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 2: It seems like all Lower Manhattan instantly was out. It

733
00:32:56,560 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 2: was like an ant hole and you just shook it

734
00:32:58,360 --> 00:33:00,920
Speaker 2: up and all the ants took off. So a guy

735
00:33:00,960 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 2: who worked with came up to me, goes, John, where

736
00:33:02,440 --> 00:33:04,440
Speaker 2: are you going? I said, I don't know. He goes,

737
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 2: what do you want to do? I said, listen, let's

738
00:33:06,280 --> 00:33:08,480
Speaker 2: get a little uptown where there's no big buildings and

739
00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:09,920
Speaker 2: we'll figure it out. So he goes, all right. So

740
00:33:10,280 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 2: we did a very fast walk uptown. And as we

741
00:33:12,960 --> 00:33:15,440
Speaker 2: were walking uptown, there was a lot of people to

742
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 2: left to me, a lot of people to the right

743
00:33:16,880 --> 00:33:18,280
Speaker 2: of me, and they were all walking and we were

744
00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 2: walking fast. And there's a federal courthouse in Low Manhattan

745
00:33:21,160 --> 00:33:24,240
Speaker 2: with big giant Gothic cement steps. I was by the

746
00:33:24,240 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 2: Federal Courthouse and the floor started rumbling, so I didn't

747
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,680
Speaker 2: know what it was. I thought something was coming from

748
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:33,320
Speaker 2: the sky, so I looked around. I didn't see nothing,

749
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 2: but the floor is rumbling under my feet, and so

750
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,840
Speaker 2: instantly I dove under a parked car and I hit

751
00:33:39,960 --> 00:33:42,160
Speaker 2: like next to the wheelwell, and then there was a

752
00:33:42,160 --> 00:33:44,200
Speaker 2: woman under the car. I don't know if she followed

753
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:45,760
Speaker 2: me and doved or she was already there, and she

754
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:47,280
Speaker 2: was an elderly woman and we looked at each other

755
00:33:47,280 --> 00:33:49,520
Speaker 2: and she had fear in her face and I couldn't.

756
00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to tell her, and she I

757
00:33:51,080 --> 00:33:52,400
Speaker 2: don't even know if she knew as a cop because

758
00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: I didn't have uniform on. I had my kakis on

759
00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 2: in my polo shirt. And a man walked by and

760
00:33:56,640 --> 00:33:58,600
Speaker 2: looked at me and goes, what are you doing? It's

761
00:33:58,640 --> 00:34:02,600
Speaker 2: just a subway. I'm like what. So I looked outside

762
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,360
Speaker 2: the wheel well and I saw the smoke coming from

763
00:34:04,440 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: Lower Manhattan. Now I don't it's not smoke. This was

764
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,880
Speaker 2: a curtain of debris. It was thick, it was black,

765
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,480
Speaker 2: it was ugly, it was rolling, and it was wavy,

766
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,839
Speaker 2: and it was coming up the block towards us. So

767
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 2: as I looked, that guy that just said that to

768
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 2: me had his briefcase and he was hauling it down

769
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:24,040
Speaker 2: the street, he took off. You I think he realized

770
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:26,600
Speaker 2: that it was no subway. So I got up and

771
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,160
Speaker 2: I didn't know what to do. I just ran. So

772
00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:30,680
Speaker 2: I ran north. I saw the guy worked within the

773
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:33,240
Speaker 2: crowd and I lost them. And I'm a pretty quick runner.

774
00:34:33,239 --> 00:34:35,759
Speaker 2: I'm athletic. I was moving. I had my dress shoes on,

775
00:34:35,840 --> 00:34:38,759
Speaker 2: but I was moving, you know. And like I said,

776
00:34:38,760 --> 00:34:40,480
Speaker 2: I had my polo shirt on. I was ready to go.

777
00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 2: So I ran uptown and all of a sudden, nothing

778
00:34:43,800 --> 00:34:46,480
Speaker 2: happened behind me. It was quiet. I saw the smoke

779
00:34:46,520 --> 00:34:48,160
Speaker 2: in the debris, but it was in the distance, and

780
00:34:48,239 --> 00:34:50,719
Speaker 2: it was like a wall, like if you look downtown,

781
00:34:50,920 --> 00:34:53,160
Speaker 2: you could see a wall of smoke and just people

782
00:34:53,880 --> 00:34:56,800
Speaker 2: from that direction walking towards you. I'm not talking people

783
00:34:56,800 --> 00:34:59,360
Speaker 2: a few, I'm talking in the thousands walking in my direction.

784
00:35:00,360 --> 00:35:03,000
Speaker 2: So the cop and me said, John, don't go in

785
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:06,000
Speaker 2: the subway. Stay where you're at. And there was a

786
00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:08,160
Speaker 2: woman standing next to me, and I was just talking

787
00:35:08,200 --> 00:35:09,839
Speaker 2: to her briefly and I said, I don't know what's

788
00:35:09,840 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 2: going on today, but you are never going to forget

789
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,680
Speaker 2: to today. She goes, no, I'm not and just walked away.

790
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:18,480
Speaker 2: And then something told me to go back. So I

791
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,880
Speaker 2: saw these crowds of people in the thousands walking towards me,

792
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:25,040
Speaker 2: and I walked downtown while everybody was walking uptown. So

793
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 2: I said, I have to get back to my building.

794
00:35:27,080 --> 00:35:29,200
Speaker 2: I wasn't that far. I was walking distance, couldn't see it.

795
00:35:29,239 --> 00:35:31,799
Speaker 2: I ran pretty far. So as I was walking, people

796
00:35:31,840 --> 00:35:34,160
Speaker 2: started letting me through. I guess they just knew I

797
00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:35,640
Speaker 2: had to get through. Maybe they knew it I was

798
00:35:35,680 --> 00:35:38,319
Speaker 2: a cop. I don't know. So people were partying and

799
00:35:38,360 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 2: I was walking, and I was walking through the crowd,

800
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:41,600
Speaker 2: and I saw a woman in my building. She was

801
00:35:41,640 --> 00:35:44,520
Speaker 2: a civilian, and I said, what's going on with police plaza?

802
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,520
Speaker 2: She goes, no, everybody just ran out of a building. There's

803
00:35:46,520 --> 00:35:49,080
Speaker 2: nobody in there. So I said okay, and I kept walking. So,

804
00:35:49,239 --> 00:35:50,600
Speaker 2: like I said, there was a partying in the crowd,

805
00:35:50,600 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: and I saw that Federal courthouse. When I got to

806
00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,360
Speaker 2: the Federal Courthouse, I heard screaming and yelling, actually not screaming,

807
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,320
Speaker 2: and there was a gentleman trying to get back in

808
00:35:59,360 --> 00:36:01,960
Speaker 2: the building, and the court offices were in full uniform.

809
00:36:02,000 --> 00:36:04,520
Speaker 2: I watched them physically throw him down the stairs. He

810
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:06,799
Speaker 2: rolled down the cement stairs right in front of me,

811
00:36:07,480 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 2: landed on the floor in front of me, and he

812
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,839
Speaker 2: just brushed himself off and wan one direction. And then

813
00:36:13,239 --> 00:36:15,000
Speaker 2: the court offices ran towards me and they said, where

814
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:16,799
Speaker 2: you going. You can't go downtown. So I took out

815
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,120
Speaker 2: my identification under my shirt showed it to him. They're like, okay,

816
00:36:20,160 --> 00:36:21,640
Speaker 2: they said, why don't you go behind the building? So

817
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:23,439
Speaker 2: I said, all right, So I actually took a short cut,

818
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:25,759
Speaker 2: went behind the building, and I went back to one

819
00:36:25,800 --> 00:36:28,080
Speaker 2: police plaza. But I didn't get directly back to one

820
00:36:28,080 --> 00:36:30,479
Speaker 2: police police plaza. I'm not exactly sure how it ended

821
00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:32,840
Speaker 2: up here, but the smoke was to the right of me,

822
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:34,880
Speaker 2: and like I said earlier, it was not smoke. This

823
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:37,280
Speaker 2: was a giant black curtain.

824
00:36:37,880 --> 00:36:41,439
Speaker 1: And when you were running from that, because we're seen

825
00:36:41,520 --> 00:36:44,400
Speaker 1: the images and all that you were running with, you

826
00:36:44,440 --> 00:36:46,319
Speaker 1: did not know what was coming. You were running for

827
00:36:46,360 --> 00:36:50,520
Speaker 1: your life literally on when that big curtain of smoke

828
00:36:50,560 --> 00:36:51,960
Speaker 1: and debris was rolling down.

829
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 2: The streets correct and the fun for me didn't even

830
00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: start yet, because you know, I was there was still

831
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 2: one tower standing. So I walked down on this street

832
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,719
Speaker 2: and there was New York City pigeons, just dozens of them,

833
00:37:03,760 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 2: walking at my feet. It was the strangest thing. I

834
00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:08,440
Speaker 2: can't describe it. I've never heard animals describe it. I

835
00:37:08,480 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 2: think the pigeons probably couldn't fly from Lower Manhattan. They

836
00:37:11,880 --> 00:37:13,759
Speaker 2: got hit with the caked and the dust, so they

837
00:37:13,800 --> 00:37:17,440
Speaker 2: came to where they was because the debris was about

838
00:37:17,480 --> 00:37:19,200
Speaker 2: not the debris, the wall of smoke was about a

839
00:37:19,239 --> 00:37:21,239
Speaker 2: block ofitud of me, the right where the Brooklyn Bridge was,

840
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:23,360
Speaker 2: and I would periodically see people on the bridge and

841
00:37:23,400 --> 00:37:25,520
Speaker 2: then smoke would overtake them. People say so. Then I

842
00:37:25,600 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 2: walked down one block and it was near a high

843
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:29,080
Speaker 2: school and there was all these high school kids sitting

844
00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:31,680
Speaker 2: on the floor and I don't know if they just

845
00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:34,200
Speaker 2: ran from the scene or they were there already. And

846
00:37:34,280 --> 00:37:36,960
Speaker 2: there was two EMS trucks and the EMS trucks maybe

847
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,479
Speaker 2: because the MS trucks people congregated that they were giving

848
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,560
Speaker 2: people oxygen one at a time, and I saw people

849
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,319
Speaker 2: with the oxygen and I was standing there and I

850
00:37:44,320 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 2: didn't know what to do. I was looking at the

851
00:37:46,080 --> 00:37:47,839
Speaker 2: EMS people and looking to the right, and I kept

852
00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:49,799
Speaker 2: looking at the Brooklyn Bridge. I was very focused on

853
00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:52,279
Speaker 2: the bridge. And a woman walks up to me and

854
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: she said, I'm pregnant. I do not want to have

855
00:37:55,320 --> 00:37:57,840
Speaker 2: my child here. So I looked at her and I

856
00:37:57,880 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 2: didn't know what. I had nothing to tell this woman.

857
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:02,400
Speaker 2: I just like, listen to EMS is here, speak to them.

858
00:38:02,640 --> 00:38:04,799
Speaker 1: I think, and if I just interrupt you there for

859
00:38:04,840 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: a sec This is what came through when I read

860
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: the piece that you wrote about it got as cops,

861
00:38:11,400 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 1: chaos is the norm. Yeah, you go to a chaotic situation,

862
00:38:14,440 --> 00:38:17,600
Speaker 1: you assess the situation, you get it under control. This

863
00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:20,920
Speaker 1: is on the magnitude that no one has experienced. And

864
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,439
Speaker 1: I just found it fascinating that half of you would

865
00:38:24,440 --> 00:38:26,359
Speaker 1: be going, well, i'm a cop, I've got to take

866
00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,920
Speaker 1: some control or help, and the other part to be

867
00:38:28,960 --> 00:38:31,239
Speaker 1: going I don't know what's going on, like it just

868
00:38:31,760 --> 00:38:33,880
Speaker 1: what was going through your mind at the time, Like

869
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,200
Speaker 1: I would imagine you were struggling with all sorts of thoughts.

870
00:38:38,000 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: Well, interestingly enough, I didn't have time to think because

871
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:43,840
Speaker 2: all you focused on what was going on at the moment,

872
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:46,440
Speaker 2: I didn't have time to I can't just one hundred

873
00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:47,960
Speaker 2: percent describe it. I don't even know if anybody else

874
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: can think about it. You don't have time to say

875
00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:51,440
Speaker 2: when I can do this? What am I gonna do

876
00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,200
Speaker 2: with this? When that you think about at that moment,

877
00:38:53,400 --> 00:38:57,040
Speaker 2: And while I was there, I didn't remember that. Okay, John,

878
00:38:57,280 --> 00:38:59,480
Speaker 2: get yourself back to one, please plasic or figure it out.

879
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:01,399
Speaker 2: You can't stay here with this pregnant woman. You can't

880
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,160
Speaker 2: stay here with the people taking oxygen, I could breathe fine.

881
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 2: So when I looked at the Brooklyn Bridge, something was

882
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,520
Speaker 2: telling me to just walk the bridge, go home, just leave,

883
00:39:11,080 --> 00:39:13,160
Speaker 2: and the cop in me was like, no, you can't

884
00:39:13,160 --> 00:39:15,920
Speaker 2: do this. I could describe. The poll to that bridge

885
00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:21,080
Speaker 2: was immense. It's like something was telling me go, go go,

886
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:23,640
Speaker 2: and something was telling me no. But that poll was

887
00:39:23,719 --> 00:39:26,359
Speaker 2: unbelievably strong, and I knew deep downside I wasn't going

888
00:39:26,360 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: to do it, couldn't do it. But man, I will

889
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:29,759
Speaker 2: say it. I wanted to get on that bridge and

890
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:32,879
Speaker 2: just walk with that crowd. And then I started walking

891
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:35,839
Speaker 2: back towards one police plaza and one police plaza. It's

892
00:39:35,840 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 2: called the plaza because it has a big opened For Manhattan,

893
00:39:38,440 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: this is considered big. It's a big open area. It's

894
00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:43,960
Speaker 2: cement benches and then the building is a Gothic old building,

895
00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:46,279
Speaker 2: you know, built in the seventies at the end. So

896
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:48,840
Speaker 2: I walked there and all I saw was one police

897
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:51,719
Speaker 2: recruit in a gray uniform. I didn't see anybody else,

898
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:53,680
Speaker 2: I know, I didn't see any of my co workers.

899
00:39:53,960 --> 00:39:56,120
Speaker 2: I walked towards the recruit. As I was walking towards him,

900
00:39:56,160 --> 00:39:58,799
Speaker 2: he kept yelling sir, sir, sir. I said, stop sarring me,

901
00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:01,560
Speaker 2: stop sirring me. I'm just I'm walking towards you. So

902
00:40:01,640 --> 00:40:05,359
Speaker 2: I walked towards him. The smoke was behind him, and

903
00:40:06,680 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 2: I don't even know what I was going to say

904
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 2: to him. He goes, sir, I have a mask for you.

905
00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:13,040
Speaker 2: So he handed me like a paper spackle mask. So

906
00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 2: I picked it up and I heard this very strange sound.

907
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:19,920
Speaker 2: I can't describe it. Me and him looked over. I

908
00:40:19,920 --> 00:40:23,040
Speaker 2: looked over my right and I saw the one tower

909
00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,560
Speaker 2: demonstrating it turned, I believed, to the left, and it

910
00:40:27,560 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: looked like it might possibly even broke in the middle.

911
00:40:29,560 --> 00:40:33,200
Speaker 2: And then it came straight down onto itself. Now, when

912
00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 2: it came down onto itself, it fell into the actual building,

913
00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:41,719
Speaker 2: So the top fell into the bottom, and instantly it

914
00:40:41,760 --> 00:40:44,040
Speaker 2: was like the hands of time stood still. For me,

915
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:47,759
Speaker 2: I was just staring, like, what is just happening here?

916
00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,840
Speaker 2: I can't believe this. It made this unbelievable rumbling sounds.

917
00:40:50,880 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 2: And then when it fell straight down, the smoke and debris,

918
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:58,520
Speaker 2: which was even thicker now shot straight up and went

919
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 2: out in my direction. Annihilly did to go in my direction.

920
00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:03,600
Speaker 2: I was watching it go into the side streets as

921
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:07,560
Speaker 2: it was coming up the block. So I turned around

922
00:41:07,680 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: and I had that mask in my hands and even

923
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,200
Speaker 2: had a chance to put it on, and I ran

924
00:41:12,480 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 2: straight more towards the back of the building, and I

925
00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,320
Speaker 2: ran a few blocks, and I could hear the sounds

926
00:41:19,320 --> 00:41:22,319
Speaker 2: behind me. It was like a rumbling, like a giant wave.

927
00:41:22,360 --> 00:41:26,200
Speaker 2: I would describe it, and strangely enough, I could smell it.

928
00:41:26,440 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: I smelt probably from the first collapse. I could smell concrete.

929
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:32,680
Speaker 2: I did construction. I know what concrete smells like. It

930
00:41:32,680 --> 00:41:38,320
Speaker 2: was concrete and burnt wires. So I had that eerie sounds,

931
00:41:38,719 --> 00:41:41,400
Speaker 2: that creepy smell, and it was coming behind me, and

932
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,239
Speaker 2: I ran, and I thought I was gonna be overtaken.

933
00:41:44,360 --> 00:41:47,040
Speaker 2: I wasn't. It was coming up towards me, but I

934
00:41:47,080 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: guess the winds took it in a different direction. I

935
00:41:49,280 --> 00:41:52,080
Speaker 2: was like right at the line, almost where it was

936
00:41:52,080 --> 00:41:55,280
Speaker 2: in the air, but nobody was choking where I was standing,

937
00:41:55,280 --> 00:41:56,719
Speaker 2: and you could see so like I said, it went

938
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:59,400
Speaker 2: to the right and left, and I ran to a

939
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:02,440
Speaker 2: parked car, and I was so angry at what just happened.

940
00:42:02,440 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 2: And I didn't even understand it yet. I banged my

941
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,960
Speaker 2: fists on the on the trunk of the car and

942
00:42:07,000 --> 00:42:09,200
Speaker 2: I said, the building just went down. I was yelling

943
00:42:09,200 --> 00:42:10,720
Speaker 2: at nobody. It was nobody, and I was just yelling

944
00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:13,520
Speaker 2: to myself. And I turned around and I saw the

945
00:42:13,520 --> 00:42:16,640
Speaker 2: Brooklyn Bridge again and it was almost covered. But every

946
00:42:16,640 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: once in a while I could see a figure through

947
00:42:18,440 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 2: the bridge of somebody walking, and I thought about it.

948
00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,440
Speaker 2: Do you leave? Do you go? Nobody'll know? You know.

949
00:42:23,480 --> 00:42:24,759
Speaker 2: I used to read books when I was a kid

950
00:42:24,800 --> 00:42:26,439
Speaker 2: about guys that went off the war and they would

951
00:42:26,480 --> 00:42:28,640
Speaker 2: try to in the trenches. All they wanted to do

952
00:42:28,760 --> 00:42:30,279
Speaker 2: was just go to the go to the rear, get

953
00:42:30,280 --> 00:42:32,279
Speaker 2: out of town. And I used to read these books

954
00:42:32,280 --> 00:42:33,759
Speaker 2: that go, man, I can imagine what it's like to

955
00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:36,399
Speaker 2: be you know, few steps of safety, but a few

956
00:42:36,400 --> 00:42:39,120
Speaker 2: steps is danger. And I thought about that. I said,

957
00:42:39,200 --> 00:42:41,239
Speaker 2: I can't leave. I got to go do something, but

958
00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:43,000
Speaker 2: I had no plan in though to do so.

959
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,839
Speaker 1: I can understand what you're sign there, and that's that's

960
00:42:46,160 --> 00:42:48,560
Speaker 1: you sign up to join join the cops. Yeah, you're

961
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: not conscripts. You volunteer, but there's a responsibility there, and

962
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,759
Speaker 1: you got to own that responsibility. In the situation like that,

963
00:42:57,200 --> 00:42:59,279
Speaker 1: And I dare say, and I'm mainly surmising here, they

964
00:42:59,280 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: would have been that took the option and went home.

965
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,640
Speaker 1: But I don't think you're doing your job if you

966
00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:08,520
Speaker 1: disappear in the situation like that, it's chaos. But hey,

967
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:12,400
Speaker 1: that's what you signed up for. Yeah, definitely.

968
00:43:12,440 --> 00:43:14,440
Speaker 2: I mean I signed up for police work, but nothing

969
00:43:14,480 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 2: to that magnitude. I didn't think I was going to

970
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:18,520
Speaker 2: watch the war waged on America, but that's what I

971
00:43:18,560 --> 00:43:20,200
Speaker 2: was doing that day. Apparently that's where I was.

972
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:24,000
Speaker 1: How far away from the when the second tower collapse?

973
00:43:24,040 --> 00:43:26,239
Speaker 1: How physically how far away were you from it?

974
00:43:26,600 --> 00:43:28,560
Speaker 2: Well, in the second tower collapse, that was the closest

975
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,439
Speaker 2: I was. And I walked towards that recruit. I walked

976
00:43:30,480 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: past my building, towards the location. I say, half mile

977
00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:35,520
Speaker 2: maybe it's zero point six point eight kilometers.

978
00:43:36,239 --> 00:43:39,319
Speaker 1: Jesus close, isn't it. You see it, you feel it,

979
00:43:39,360 --> 00:43:41,280
Speaker 1: you hear it, you smell it all your senses.

980
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:41,759
Speaker 2: Yeah.

981
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: So, okay, well I'm saw the shell shocked. You have

982
00:43:46,120 --> 00:43:48,760
Speaker 1: the magnitude of what you're talking about, but please continue

983
00:43:48,800 --> 00:43:50,600
Speaker 1: on it. Take us through what happened next.

984
00:43:51,160 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 2: Yes, you brought up an interesting point. You know, I

985
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:55,759
Speaker 2: was interestingly and this is probably why I wrote it.

986
00:43:55,800 --> 00:43:57,280
Speaker 2: You know, there were people who were in the towers,

987
00:43:57,320 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 2: who were right there, and they have unbelievable stories. But

988
00:44:00,440 --> 00:44:03,479
Speaker 2: I witnessed it like right. It's almost like I wasn't

989
00:44:03,480 --> 00:44:05,279
Speaker 2: in the front row seat. I wasn't in the second

990
00:44:05,360 --> 00:44:07,000
Speaker 2: road seat, but I was in the third row where

991
00:44:07,000 --> 00:44:08,680
Speaker 2: you get a better view than the first and second.

992
00:44:08,719 --> 00:44:11,200
Speaker 2: That's how close I was where I saw it like panoramic.

993
00:44:11,239 --> 00:44:13,680
Speaker 2: I guess that's the best description i'd give it. So

994
00:44:14,800 --> 00:44:16,520
Speaker 2: I was right there and it was no television, there

995
00:44:16,600 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 2: was nothing. I didn't know what was going on. So

996
00:44:18,840 --> 00:44:21,840
Speaker 2: as I walked up a little bit, I started walking.

997
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:24,200
Speaker 2: Now I realized that, you know, at least that debris

998
00:44:24,239 --> 00:44:25,520
Speaker 2: wasn't going to make it my way. But as I

999
00:44:25,600 --> 00:44:29,080
Speaker 2: was walking, I started gauging the buildings around me, because

1000
00:44:29,120 --> 00:44:31,120
Speaker 2: there are some buildings there not that big. I mean,

1001
00:44:31,239 --> 00:44:32,719
Speaker 2: all right, I'm gonna say not that big. I'm a

1002
00:44:32,760 --> 00:44:35,400
Speaker 2: New Yorker, so they weren't skyscrapers. Put it that way.

1003
00:44:35,640 --> 00:44:38,760
Speaker 2: So I'm gauging the buildings. I'm saying, if a plane

1004
00:44:38,840 --> 00:44:41,160
Speaker 2: hits that, will it hit me? If a plane hits

1005
00:44:41,200 --> 00:44:43,000
Speaker 2: this building. So I'm walking kind of in the middle,

1006
00:44:43,480 --> 00:44:45,400
Speaker 2: and I was like, how am I thinking like this?

1007
00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:47,360
Speaker 2: How did I go to work today? I think worrying

1008
00:44:47,360 --> 00:44:50,759
Speaker 2: about buildings falling on me. And I was concerned that

1009
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:53,239
Speaker 2: if something else happened, because I truly believe something the

1010
00:44:53,360 --> 00:44:55,520
Speaker 2: next wave was gonna come.

1011
00:44:55,840 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: Well you're thinking that that time, John, Sorry for just

1012
00:44:59,160 --> 00:45:02,880
Speaker 1: interrupt just to qu verify. You're not sure what's happening,

1013
00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,520
Speaker 1: but clearly this is a deliberate attack, and yeah, what's

1014
00:45:06,560 --> 00:45:08,160
Speaker 1: the next thing that's going to come? Is an army

1015
00:45:08,200 --> 00:45:10,319
Speaker 1: goan to invide? Like you would not know what was

1016
00:45:10,360 --> 00:45:12,840
Speaker 1: going on at this point in time. It's clearly not

1017
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:13,480
Speaker 1: an accident.

1018
00:45:13,600 --> 00:45:15,560
Speaker 2: Sure, I was clearly that accident. You know, later on

1019
00:45:15,600 --> 00:45:17,840
Speaker 2: I would hear the rumor mill was just it was

1020
00:45:17,920 --> 00:45:20,040
Speaker 2: comical the rumors that were coming through, and I knew

1021
00:45:20,080 --> 00:45:22,040
Speaker 2: that of them were true. I did think something was

1022
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,560
Speaker 2: kind of come from the sky. I truly believe that

1023
00:45:25,080 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 2: wherever the attack was was from above. So I saw

1024
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:30,920
Speaker 2: a couple of guys that you know, a cops will

1025
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:32,920
Speaker 2: tell you they weren't in uniform. They just knew they

1026
00:45:32,960 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 2: were cops. If I could tell from you know the

1027
00:45:34,800 --> 00:45:36,600
Speaker 2: distance I was. So I walked over to them, and

1028
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: I didn't know these guys. I just knew they were

1029
00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,040
Speaker 2: police officers, and I'm assumed from my building. So I said,

1030
00:45:41,040 --> 00:45:42,440
Speaker 2: what's going on? And they all looked at me like,

1031
00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:44,480
Speaker 2: we don't know, nobody's here. We don't know what to do.

1032
00:45:44,560 --> 00:45:48,600
Speaker 2: So as I was standing there, I started making some

1033
00:45:48,719 --> 00:45:51,200
Speaker 2: brief conversation with the guy next to me, and he just,

1034
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:52,759
Speaker 2: you know, he was just one of those people at

1035
00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,480
Speaker 2: the moment where I couldn't talk. I guess he was

1036
00:45:54,600 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: just a little more shell shocked than I was, and

1037
00:45:56,800 --> 00:45:59,520
Speaker 2: he was just staring blankly, and I didn't say anything else.

1038
00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:02,080
Speaker 2: I juste he he doesn't want to talk or he can't.

1039
00:46:02,200 --> 00:46:05,239
Speaker 2: But he was a cop like me. So I thought

1040
00:46:05,280 --> 00:46:07,920
Speaker 2: to myself, my gosh, John, you called your wife and

1041
00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:10,080
Speaker 2: you told her you would go into the building. So

1042
00:46:10,440 --> 00:46:12,640
Speaker 2: I said, okay, So now I got I want to

1043
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:15,439
Speaker 2: go home. Now, I really want to go home. Now

1044
00:46:15,440 --> 00:46:16,880
Speaker 2: I got to get in touch with my wife and

1045
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:19,080
Speaker 2: tell her that I'm not in the building. It's okay.

1046
00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,359
Speaker 2: So sure enough, the payphones were down, the lights were down,

1047
00:46:22,440 --> 00:46:24,040
Speaker 2: all the lines were down. I couldn't get on the

1048
00:46:24,080 --> 00:46:26,759
Speaker 2: phone because there was other payphones there. So I heard

1049
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,279
Speaker 2: my name called from up the block and it was

1050
00:46:29,320 --> 00:46:31,840
Speaker 2: the lieutenant that had asked me about the reports earlier

1051
00:46:31,880 --> 00:46:34,000
Speaker 2: in the morning, and he said, John, we're really glad

1052
00:46:34,040 --> 00:46:37,160
Speaker 2: you're okay, because you're the only one we were concerned

1053
00:46:37,520 --> 00:46:39,759
Speaker 2: where you were. Because I ran into the other guy

1054
00:46:39,840 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: that I ran with, he had already made it back

1055
00:46:41,600 --> 00:46:44,040
Speaker 2: before I did, so I said, what are we doing?

1056
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:46,319
Speaker 2: He goes, nobody knows. He goes, just stay here. Let's

1057
00:46:46,320 --> 00:46:48,439
Speaker 2: make a perimeter and we make sure no non law

1058
00:46:48,520 --> 00:46:52,200
Speaker 2: enforcement could come into the area. And we put up

1059
00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:56,160
Speaker 2: some police barriers that we could find. And you know,

1060
00:46:56,280 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 2: the playbook went out the window. There was no rules,

1061
00:46:59,239 --> 00:47:01,040
Speaker 2: there was no this is what you need to do,

1062
00:47:01,080 --> 00:47:03,160
Speaker 2: this is what you don't need to do. And as

1063
00:47:03,160 --> 00:47:06,680
Speaker 2: I was standing there, I was watching and periodically people

1064
00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,520
Speaker 2: would run through that wall of smoke into our direction.

1065
00:47:09,600 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 2: And I watched a woman running and she had the

1066
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:14,440
Speaker 2: high heels on and they were clanking and she was holling.

1067
00:47:14,480 --> 00:47:17,200
Speaker 2: This woman was running full force towards me, and sure

1068
00:47:17,320 --> 00:47:20,359
Speaker 2: enough I watched her heel break and the women face

1069
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,000
Speaker 2: smacked right on the concrete. So I ran over to her,

1070
00:47:24,080 --> 00:47:26,600
Speaker 2: and ironically, two other women saw this, two other female

1071
00:47:26,600 --> 00:47:29,520
Speaker 2: police officers, so more cops were congregating, and they picked

1072
00:47:29,520 --> 00:47:32,800
Speaker 2: her up and they started running with her back away

1073
00:47:32,800 --> 00:47:34,919
Speaker 2: from where we were. She ran, and then I watched

1074
00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:36,359
Speaker 2: she ran on her own. So there was a lot

1075
00:47:36,400 --> 00:47:40,799
Speaker 2: of people coming together at that tragic moment. And I

1076
00:47:40,840 --> 00:47:42,680
Speaker 2: stayed where I was because I didn't know where to go.

1077
00:47:42,719 --> 00:47:44,200
Speaker 2: I knew I wasn't going to go home, but I

1078
00:47:44,560 --> 00:47:46,000
Speaker 2: at least knew that I was going to stay where

1079
00:47:46,000 --> 00:47:48,920
Speaker 2: my post was for that was original, and we were

1080
00:47:48,960 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 2: going to basically ended up. I found this out later.

1081
00:47:52,080 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 2: We just decided to we were letting the emergency vehicles.

1082
00:47:54,760 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 2: Because the emergency vehicles showed up very quickly. I watched

1083
00:47:58,960 --> 00:48:02,440
Speaker 2: empty New York City buses with people jumping in on

1084
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,839
Speaker 2: some type of rescue workers I know, I'm sure who.

1085
00:48:04,840 --> 00:48:07,560
Speaker 2: And I saw empty busses coming through. I saw a

1086
00:48:07,600 --> 00:48:09,400
Speaker 2: carp on the back of a Holly Davidson where he

1087
00:48:09,480 --> 00:48:13,799
Speaker 2: just hitched a ride. I saw people off duty. I

1088
00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,799
Speaker 2: saw family members of people that had been in Lower

1089
00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:19,840
Speaker 2: Manhattan coming very quickly down towards Low Manhattan. So we

1090
00:48:19,880 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 2: had a courten off that area because if we were

1091
00:48:21,440 --> 00:48:23,520
Speaker 2: going to let the emergency vehicles through. We had to

1092
00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:25,719
Speaker 2: do it orderly because there was a big road there,

1093
00:48:25,920 --> 00:48:28,000
Speaker 2: so we knew we were going to have some type

1094
00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:31,000
Speaker 2: of direction within sending people downtown.

1095
00:48:33,560 --> 00:48:36,160
Speaker 1: Hi guys, just a quick interruption to let you know

1096
00:48:36,200 --> 00:48:39,320
Speaker 1: about the new podcast from the team behind I Catch Killers.

1097
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: It's called The Mushroom Cook. It's about a case that

1098
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: made headlines around the world last year, the prosecution of

1099
00:48:46,000 --> 00:48:49,360
Speaker 1: a Victorian woman called Aaron Patterson over a family lunch

1100
00:48:49,400 --> 00:48:52,680
Speaker 1: that left three people dead. The podcast goes deep into

1101
00:48:52,719 --> 00:48:55,760
Speaker 1: what we know about those alleged murders in the coming months.

1102
00:48:55,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: It will also follow the twists and turns as erin

1103
00:48:58,400 --> 00:49:02,160
Speaker 1: who's denied any wrongdoing faces trial. If you subscribe to

1104
00:49:02,239 --> 00:49:05,480
Speaker 1: crimex plus, you'll get access to The Mushroom Cook early

1105
00:49:05,560 --> 00:49:08,960
Speaker 1: and add through. Just search for The Mushroom Cook on

1106
00:49:09,080 --> 00:49:13,879
Speaker 1: crimex Plus on Apple Podcasts. Seeing those towers come down,

1107
00:49:14,400 --> 00:49:17,280
Speaker 1: you would have to thought and seeing the people jumping

1108
00:49:17,320 --> 00:49:20,840
Speaker 1: and falling out of the buildings. Did you have time

1109
00:49:20,880 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 1: in that chaos to even take in the magnitude of

1110
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:26,560
Speaker 1: how many lives were lost? Was that going through your

1111
00:49:26,560 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: mind or was everything just rolling through so quickly. You

1112
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:31,440
Speaker 1: were just taking it one step of the time.

1113
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,000
Speaker 2: I was taking it one step at a time. But

1114
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:36,080
Speaker 2: being that I didn't call I had called my wife

1115
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: and told her I was going to the building that

1116
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:39,719
Speaker 2: was consuming my thoughts at that moment. I guess you

1117
00:49:39,760 --> 00:49:43,000
Speaker 2: have to focus on something. With the people jumping from

1118
00:49:43,000 --> 00:49:45,160
Speaker 2: the towers, that didn't start to really get into my

1119
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:49,399
Speaker 2: memory until days later. And one person I work with,

1120
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 2: I didn't realize the death magnitude, and because I remembered

1121
00:49:53,000 --> 00:49:56,239
Speaker 2: that as that the wall of smoke would clear, the

1122
00:49:56,320 --> 00:49:58,960
Speaker 2: sun was so bright, so it was an eerie black

1123
00:49:59,320 --> 00:50:02,640
Speaker 2: cloud that would cover periodically cover the sun, and it

1124
00:50:02,640 --> 00:50:04,319
Speaker 2: would get very dark, and they would get very bright

1125
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,360
Speaker 2: and get very dark and get very bright. It was odd.

1126
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:08,520
Speaker 2: And then someone I worked with walked up to me

1127
00:50:08,719 --> 00:50:11,400
Speaker 2: and I don't I think he was listening to his walkman,

1128
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 2: and he said, the fire department just lost a lot

1129
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,560
Speaker 2: of people. So that was the first time I realized

1130
00:50:16,600 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 2: that there are people that got up to work just

1131
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: like I did. They got dressed, and they are not

1132
00:50:21,719 --> 00:50:23,960
Speaker 2: coming home to see their families. Yeah.

1133
00:50:24,040 --> 00:50:28,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's heavy, isn't it. Did your wife did you

1134
00:50:28,200 --> 00:50:31,560
Speaker 1: get to how did you get to make contact with

1135
00:50:31,600 --> 00:50:33,600
Speaker 1: your wife. I know there was a couple of attempts,

1136
00:50:33,680 --> 00:50:37,080
Speaker 1: but she must have been going through assuming she would

1137
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:39,759
Speaker 1: have missed you. She must have been going through hell

1138
00:50:40,719 --> 00:50:43,000
Speaker 1: wondering whether you did go to the tower on what's happened.

1139
00:50:43,080 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: It must have been a hard time for her.

1140
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:47,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, we talk about it now in the family. It's

1141
00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:49,000
Speaker 2: kind of like the ongoing joke that I made that

1142
00:50:49,080 --> 00:50:50,960
Speaker 2: phone call and didn't call her back for a while,

1143
00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:53,319
Speaker 2: it's still the ongoing joke, you know. I guess when

1144
00:50:53,320 --> 00:50:55,080
Speaker 2: you're married to a cop, you have to laugh about things,

1145
00:50:55,120 --> 00:50:57,719
Speaker 2: and even to that magnitude, it's still talked about. And

1146
00:50:58,080 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 2: that's why I talk about it on the podcast, because

1147
00:50:59,640 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 2: it is it's something I would do. Is I did

1148
00:51:02,280 --> 00:51:03,839
Speaker 2: not saying I forgot to call her back, but it

1149
00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,320
Speaker 2: was I couldn't get to a payphone because every payphone

1150
00:51:06,400 --> 00:51:09,279
Speaker 2: I got to wasn't working. So I would tell my coworkers,

1151
00:51:09,320 --> 00:51:11,799
Speaker 2: I would say, I have to call my wife. So

1152
00:51:12,200 --> 00:51:14,440
Speaker 2: I went a little further uptown and I finally got

1153
00:51:14,480 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: to a phone and I called her office and it

1154
00:51:16,920 --> 00:51:19,359
Speaker 2: went to a voicemail, and so, yeah, I could leave

1155
00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 2: a voicemail, but she I don't know if she's ever

1156
00:51:20,960 --> 00:51:24,840
Speaker 2: going back to work. So I called my house and

1157
00:51:25,000 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 2: I left a voicemail. Okay, I got somewhere. I called

1158
00:51:29,560 --> 00:51:31,440
Speaker 2: my father. He was home at the time, and I

1159
00:51:31,480 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 2: got him on the phone and I told him so.

1160
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,239
Speaker 2: But still, how long would it be before she got

1161
00:51:36,239 --> 00:51:38,680
Speaker 2: this message? So I didn't know this at the time.

1162
00:51:38,920 --> 00:51:42,640
Speaker 2: She fled her building with her coworkers and they ended

1163
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:44,920
Speaker 2: up running to the fifty ninth Street bridge and they

1164
00:51:45,000 --> 00:51:47,960
Speaker 2: ran over the bridge there. So she was more uptown,

1165
00:51:48,040 --> 00:51:51,239
Speaker 2: but she had to make her own exit out of

1166
00:51:51,280 --> 00:51:53,759
Speaker 2: the city. And she tells me now that you know,

1167
00:51:53,800 --> 00:51:56,120
Speaker 2: she kept telling everybody she works with. My husband went

1168
00:51:56,120 --> 00:51:58,040
Speaker 2: to the towers. My husband went to the towers, and

1169
00:51:58,040 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 2: I'm sure there was a lot of people that you know,

1170
00:51:59,640 --> 00:52:02,000
Speaker 2: had the thoughts. But so it was important to me

1171
00:52:02,040 --> 00:52:02,880
Speaker 2: to get that message to it.

1172
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:07,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can understand that, but the whole magnitude of

1173
00:52:07,400 --> 00:52:09,640
Speaker 1: what happened, it's a city in panic, and we were

1174
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,440
Speaker 1: watching it from here. It was the early hours of

1175
00:52:11,480 --> 00:52:13,879
Speaker 1: the morning. I got up to go to work and

1176
00:52:14,719 --> 00:52:16,680
Speaker 1: put the TV on, or heard it on the radio,

1177
00:52:16,719 --> 00:52:18,920
Speaker 1: put the TV on. And when I first saw it,

1178
00:52:18,960 --> 00:52:20,920
Speaker 1: as a lot of people say, you didn't think it

1179
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:23,080
Speaker 1: was real. You saw the image of the plane going

1180
00:52:23,120 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: into the tower. But we had because we had a

1181
00:52:27,160 --> 00:52:30,320
Speaker 1: wider view of what was going on where the information

1182
00:52:30,440 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: was coming in. You guys on the ground, you would

1183
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,680
Speaker 1: have not known what's coming next. Is this just the

1184
00:52:35,680 --> 00:52:39,439
Speaker 1: first wave of a full on terrorist attack with more

1185
00:52:39,480 --> 00:52:40,200
Speaker 1: waves coming.

1186
00:52:40,920 --> 00:52:44,360
Speaker 2: That's what we started to realize that, you know, something's

1187
00:52:44,400 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 2: going on. We more than we could comprehend, whether we're

1188
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,759
Speaker 2: being told or not. And what was happening is we

1189
00:52:49,760 --> 00:52:52,000
Speaker 2: had no real direction. So I was letting the fire

1190
00:52:52,040 --> 00:52:54,400
Speaker 2: trucks through, I was letting the ambulances through. So I

1191
00:52:54,440 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 2: started directing traffic, and I was a rookie carp directing traffic.

1192
00:52:57,200 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: It was nothing I couldn't do. I just didn't die.

1193
00:52:59,640 --> 00:53:01,920
Speaker 2: I would do at this magnitude. So I was in

1194
00:53:01,920 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 2: the middle street directing people. They would open the barriers

1195
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:08,880
Speaker 2: and the emergency vehicles would come through with debris on

1196
00:53:08,920 --> 00:53:12,040
Speaker 2: top of it. So as I'm letting these emergency vehicles

1197
00:53:12,080 --> 00:53:14,239
Speaker 2: pass me, I'm waving them in one direction and I'm

1198
00:53:14,280 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 2: watching the debris fly off it. So I'm like, my gosh,

1199
00:53:17,160 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: I got to get out of the way. So this

1200
00:53:18,880 --> 00:53:20,960
Speaker 2: giant like stuff was coming off the top of the ambulance.

1201
00:53:20,960 --> 00:53:23,399
Speaker 2: Somebody's ambulances were downtown when it happened, and they were

1202
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:26,839
Speaker 2: getting out with their patients, so I was directing them out,

1203
00:53:26,880 --> 00:53:29,000
Speaker 2: and then I was directing people back in. So it

1204
00:53:29,080 --> 00:53:31,960
Speaker 2: was a dangerous place to even direct traffic. So as

1205
00:53:31,960 --> 00:53:34,080
Speaker 2: of directing the traffic, I hear another sound, and I

1206
00:53:34,120 --> 00:53:37,040
Speaker 2: guess my jitters were up. I heard something above me

1207
00:53:37,200 --> 00:53:40,719
Speaker 2: again and I looked up. It was a fighter jet

1208
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:43,359
Speaker 2: and we all cheered the fire fighter jets as they

1209
00:53:43,600 --> 00:53:46,680
Speaker 2: flew over the Manhattan. So that's when I really realized

1210
00:53:46,680 --> 00:53:49,440
Speaker 2: that this is something I never expected to ever see.

1211
00:53:49,600 --> 00:53:52,719
Speaker 2: W'ch hearing fighter jets coming over to city was unbelievable.

1212
00:53:52,800 --> 00:53:56,200
Speaker 1: And that was a symbol of where farthing back I

1213
00:53:56,200 --> 00:54:00,759
Speaker 1: would imagine I felt safe saying that the farther the jets. Okay,

1214
00:54:00,560 --> 00:54:05,680
Speaker 1: the whole experience for you just from you did get

1215
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,960
Speaker 1: home that night. You had eventually you got home a

1216
00:54:09,040 --> 00:54:12,560
Speaker 1: couple couple of hours sleep, and you said that you

1217
00:54:12,600 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: were hearing sounds of sirens in your head when you

1218
00:54:16,360 --> 00:54:20,240
Speaker 1: got home and you were looking out the window wondering

1219
00:54:20,280 --> 00:54:22,920
Speaker 1: where what was going on now? But they were sounds

1220
00:54:22,960 --> 00:54:25,960
Speaker 1: in your head. Correct? Do you want to talk us

1221
00:54:25,960 --> 00:54:26,279
Speaker 1: through that?

1222
00:54:27,000 --> 00:54:29,719
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, I'm glad you read it. It was one

1223
00:54:29,719 --> 00:54:31,160
Speaker 2: of those things you're never going to forget. When I

1224
00:54:31,200 --> 00:54:34,600
Speaker 2: went home, I did eventually contact my wife indirectly through

1225
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:38,400
Speaker 2: three different people. So it was another family member of

1226
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:40,080
Speaker 2: mine that I had left a message. I had left

1227
00:54:40,080 --> 00:54:42,120
Speaker 2: a lot of messages for people. He had drove to

1228
00:54:42,160 --> 00:54:44,160
Speaker 2: my house, saw her in front of the house, told

1229
00:54:44,200 --> 00:54:47,360
Speaker 2: her that I was okay. It was not at the towers.

1230
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,000
Speaker 2: I was directing traffic where I was the whole time.

1231
00:54:50,080 --> 00:54:53,040
Speaker 2: So when once that got off my mind, it was

1232
00:54:53,120 --> 00:54:54,719
Speaker 2: a little more. That's when the fear started to go,

1233
00:54:54,880 --> 00:54:56,960
Speaker 2: My gosh, look what just happened. And then and then

1234
00:54:56,960 --> 00:54:58,479
Speaker 2: it was funny is I had no way to get home.

1235
00:54:58,520 --> 00:55:00,200
Speaker 2: So I took the train home on another guy. And

1236
00:55:00,200 --> 00:55:03,160
Speaker 2: I'm riding a subway like a commuter after this madness.

1237
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:07,680
Speaker 2: And so I get home and my house was empty.

1238
00:55:07,680 --> 00:55:09,640
Speaker 2: But let me tell you, when you get home after

1239
00:55:09,680 --> 00:55:12,080
Speaker 2: an incident like that, home is the best place you

1240
00:55:12,080 --> 00:55:15,359
Speaker 2: can ever be. It's like something you strive for all

1241
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,800
Speaker 2: day long to finally get there. Your home is your castle,

1242
00:55:18,880 --> 00:55:22,040
Speaker 2: it's it's your kingdom. At that moment, so I was

1243
00:55:22,120 --> 00:55:24,360
Speaker 2: just so glad my wife wasn't home. She ended up

1244
00:55:24,360 --> 00:55:26,839
Speaker 2: staying with other family members. So because that's how the

1245
00:55:26,880 --> 00:55:29,439
Speaker 2: city had a very strange vibe going on at that time.

1246
00:55:29,440 --> 00:55:31,320
Speaker 2: When it comes to that stuff, people were very nervous.

1247
00:55:31,840 --> 00:55:34,319
Speaker 2: So I go home and I had to take off

1248
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,880
Speaker 2: that close because it was I wasn't caked in it,

1249
00:55:36,920 --> 00:55:38,400
Speaker 2: but I knew it was in my clothes, which was

1250
00:55:38,400 --> 00:55:40,520
Speaker 2: the debrief in the building, so I knew enough that

1251
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:42,319
Speaker 2: that stuff was toxic. I knew from the smell of

1252
00:55:42,320 --> 00:55:45,840
Speaker 2: the burnt plastic. So I threw the clothes outside. I

1253
00:55:45,920 --> 00:55:48,080
Speaker 2: just left it there, you know, And I went up

1254
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:50,719
Speaker 2: to my bathroom and I was hearing sirens like I

1255
00:55:50,760 --> 00:55:53,200
Speaker 2: had heard them, the sirens when I was walking through

1256
00:55:53,239 --> 00:55:55,040
Speaker 2: the city. I heard it on the subway, but I

1257
00:55:55,120 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 2: just figured it was sirens in the distance. And now

1258
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:58,560
Speaker 2: in my house and I'm in a quiet area of

1259
00:55:58,640 --> 00:56:01,440
Speaker 2: Queen's I mean, I mean ailes from Manhattan, so I

1260
00:56:01,480 --> 00:56:04,719
Speaker 2: don't know what sirens I was hearing. And they kept

1261
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:06,279
Speaker 2: going to my ear, and I kept going to my ear,

1262
00:56:06,280 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 2: and the sirens, siren, sirens. So I was taking a

1263
00:56:08,360 --> 00:56:10,400
Speaker 2: shower and I was hearing it over the water, So

1264
00:56:10,440 --> 00:56:12,279
Speaker 2: I said, this is a normal So I opened up

1265
00:56:12,280 --> 00:56:15,240
Speaker 2: my window and I heard it, but there was nothing outside.

1266
00:56:15,280 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 2: I couldn't see anything. I shut the shower off. I

1267
00:56:17,560 --> 00:56:20,480
Speaker 2: walked out in my hallway and the sirens were continuing.

1268
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:22,440
Speaker 2: And then I went in my room and that's when

1269
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:24,839
Speaker 2: I realized the sirens were from me, just hearing them

1270
00:56:24,880 --> 00:56:28,719
Speaker 2: constantly throughout the day, and I could not get that

1271
00:56:28,719 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: that siren sound out of my ears. It was just echoing.

1272
00:56:32,120 --> 00:56:36,000
Speaker 1: Just em better than you in your psyching. Reflecting on

1273
00:56:36,080 --> 00:56:39,800
Speaker 1: it now you talk about it, you've written about it,

1274
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,040
Speaker 1: it must still and you said at the start of

1275
00:56:42,080 --> 00:56:44,520
Speaker 1: the podcast that, yeah, there's not a day that goes

1276
00:56:44,560 --> 00:56:48,000
Speaker 1: by where you don't don't think about it. After an

1277
00:56:48,040 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: experience like that, did you feel like I don't want

1278
00:56:51,640 --> 00:56:54,000
Speaker 1: to be part of this anymore? Or did it stir

1279
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,759
Speaker 1: something different than you that you thought, Okay, well I

1280
00:56:56,840 --> 00:56:59,759
Speaker 1: want to stay and make a difference. What was the

1281
00:56:59,760 --> 00:57:01,600
Speaker 1: fear in your head, because I would imagine that a

1282
00:57:01,600 --> 00:57:05,319
Speaker 1: cross your mind experiencing something like that. The stuff is

1283
00:57:05,360 --> 00:57:06,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to get out of the city. I just

1284
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,120
Speaker 1: want to leave a y life of peace. What was

1285
00:57:10,160 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 1: going through your mind after experiencing what you did on

1286
00:57:12,880 --> 00:57:13,239
Speaker 1: met day.

1287
00:57:14,120 --> 00:57:16,960
Speaker 2: I didn't really have the time to think about a

1288
00:57:17,040 --> 00:57:19,160
Speaker 2: future of my police work at that moment, because what

1289
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:20,440
Speaker 2: I wanted to do was the first thing I did

1290
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:22,360
Speaker 2: was I put on my construction boots and my pants

1291
00:57:22,360 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 2: and my heavy duty shirt, and I was my gloves.

1292
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 2: I had the heavy gloves on. I was ready to

1293
00:57:26,480 --> 00:57:28,640
Speaker 2: dig for survivors. And I went to work the next

1294
00:57:28,760 --> 00:57:32,160
Speaker 2: day and somebody I worked with drove me there, and

1295
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 2: I really wanted to get back into it. You know,

1296
00:57:35,240 --> 00:57:38,480
Speaker 2: the NYPD didn't have the time to, you know, really

1297
00:57:38,520 --> 00:57:39,919
Speaker 2: say Hey, what are you going to do. We're gonna

1298
00:57:39,920 --> 00:57:41,520
Speaker 2: do this, We're gonna do that. The playbook was still

1299
00:57:41,560 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: thrown out the window, and there was no playbook. There

1300
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:46,360
Speaker 2: was no like, hey, John, come back at this time.

1301
00:57:46,400 --> 00:57:48,440
Speaker 2: I just went right back to the same location I

1302
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,880
Speaker 2: was at. And when I went back into the city

1303
00:57:50,880 --> 00:57:52,680
Speaker 2: the next day, it was the next day and it

1304
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:54,840
Speaker 2: was still nice out, but it had looked like a

1305
00:57:54,880 --> 00:57:57,760
Speaker 2: tornado went through the city, tore everything up, threw it

1306
00:57:57,760 --> 00:57:59,360
Speaker 2: in the air, and threw it back down on the floor.

1307
00:58:00,160 --> 00:58:03,440
Speaker 2: I looked downtown and I saw the building had these

1308
00:58:04,000 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 2: the metal you could see it now in old pictures,

1309
00:58:05,680 --> 00:58:08,200
Speaker 2: and I saw it directly. The metal structure of the facade.

1310
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:10,360
Speaker 2: There was these four like beam looking things that didn't

1311
00:58:10,360 --> 00:58:13,080
Speaker 2: get knocked down, and they just like a fork, stood

1312
00:58:13,120 --> 00:58:15,480
Speaker 2: up in the air and there was all debris around it.

1313
00:58:15,520 --> 00:58:17,440
Speaker 2: And I couldn't believe that out of all that that

1314
00:58:17,560 --> 00:58:20,880
Speaker 2: stood like a relic. Was very odd. So I saw that,

1315
00:58:21,040 --> 00:58:24,120
Speaker 2: and then I was we couldn't find a parking spot,

1316
00:58:24,200 --> 00:58:27,000
Speaker 2: and then we were looking for parking spots next to

1317
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:30,560
Speaker 2: carse with broken windows and debris filled in it, and

1318
00:58:30,720 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: it was like, wow, really something went through here yesterday

1319
00:58:33,840 --> 00:58:35,880
Speaker 2: because we were actually had a park closer than I

1320
00:58:35,920 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: was the day before.

1321
00:58:37,880 --> 00:58:39,920
Speaker 1: You you grew up in New York, you were a

1322
00:58:40,040 --> 00:58:42,959
Speaker 1: New York boy through and through. You're a cop in

1323
00:58:43,000 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: New York. What was the impact that it had from

1324
00:58:45,800 --> 00:58:48,120
Speaker 1: your observations it?

1325
00:58:48,760 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 2: Like I said, there was there was no madness. It

1326
00:58:50,960 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 2: was everything in a strange way, calms down, like even

1327
00:58:55,680 --> 00:58:58,960
Speaker 2: the subway ride was calm like. The next day, I

1328
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:00,800
Speaker 2: was in uniform and people offered me a seat on

1329
00:59:00,840 --> 00:59:04,120
Speaker 2: the subway. That doesn't happen. People don't know what I need.

1330
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:06,400
Speaker 2: City police officer seats on the subway, so I knew

1331
00:59:06,440 --> 00:59:08,800
Speaker 2: times were different. And as soon as I got back

1332
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:12,960
Speaker 2: to one police plaza, I you know, the supplies started

1333
00:59:13,000 --> 00:59:15,360
Speaker 2: showing up right away. It was like America started grieving

1334
00:59:15,360 --> 00:59:19,160
Speaker 2: within the hours. And I saw cases of water. I

1335
00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:21,840
Speaker 2: you know. A stranger walked up to me and goes, hey,

1336
00:59:21,880 --> 00:59:24,320
Speaker 2: why don't you go down there to this block or upstairs?

1337
00:59:24,320 --> 00:59:26,840
Speaker 2: They're cooking steaks on the roof. So I'm like, yeah,

1338
00:59:26,840 --> 00:59:28,800
Speaker 2: I'm gonna go. I'll see in ten minutes. I don't

1339
00:59:28,840 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 2: know what this guy was talking about. I look back now,

1340
00:59:30,800 --> 00:59:32,800
Speaker 2: they were, you know, cooking steak for the city workers

1341
00:59:32,840 --> 00:59:34,440
Speaker 2: up on their roof, and guys were going taking their

1342
00:59:34,440 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 2: breaks up there. That was really happening.

1343
00:59:36,200 --> 00:59:40,760
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's almost like the people understand the time of

1344
00:59:41,040 --> 00:59:44,400
Speaker 1: travel like that. Obviously it's probably an understatement, but the

1345
00:59:44,440 --> 00:59:48,800
Speaker 1: importance of the emergency workers and all that. So I've

1346
00:59:48,840 --> 00:59:51,840
Speaker 1: watched that what you see, you see the shows about it,

1347
00:59:51,880 --> 00:59:53,600
Speaker 1: I've read about it and all that, but this is

1348
00:59:53,600 --> 00:59:55,840
Speaker 1: the first time I've had the first hand account of

1349
00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:59,960
Speaker 1: someone that was there, and you bought it to life

1350
01:00:00,160 --> 01:00:03,400
Speaker 1: in the article that you wrote about and what you're

1351
01:00:03,440 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 1: talking about it. So thanks, Thanks for that we might

1352
01:00:06,840 --> 01:00:09,880
Speaker 1: take a break now, and when we come back for

1353
01:00:10,000 --> 01:00:12,480
Speaker 1: part two, we're going to delve into life of a

1354
01:00:12,560 --> 01:00:14,680
Speaker 1: New York cop because I'm fascinated by it. I've been

1355
01:00:14,720 --> 01:00:17,440
Speaker 1: watching those TV shows and those movies my whole career,

1356
01:00:17,600 --> 01:00:19,800
Speaker 1: and I've got my own police career over here. But

1357
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 1: there was something about being a cop in New York.

1358
01:00:22,120 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 1: It seemed to be the sharp end of policing. So

1359
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,360
Speaker 1: when we come back for part two, if you could

1360
01:00:27,760 --> 01:00:30,439
Speaker 1: take us into the world of a New York cop,

1361
01:00:30,640 --> 01:00:33,720
Speaker 1: that would be very much appreciated. Sure, cheers,