1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Good a Team. It's Harps and Melissa. Just a little 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: pre intro intro. I'm not sure what you would call 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: that a printro. I'm not sure. Fuck it. So I 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: did a conversation very recently with the fabulous Sabrina. It 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: turned out to be quite long, so, as we often do, 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: we chopped it into So this is part one of 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: a two part conversation. Honestly, one of my favorite chats 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: of the last year with somebody who is smart and 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: all of that, accomplished, successful, all of that, but for me, 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: one of the most inspirational people that I've spoken to 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: in a long time. Anyway, this is part one of Sabrina. 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Enjoy the shit out of it. Good a Team, your 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: bloody champions you. It's typ of course, it is the 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: You project. It's Lates, it's Late's Melissa and I. It's 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: six minutes past nine and I turned into a pumpkin 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: at about nine point thirty Melissa, as you well know, 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: because I get up at five o'clock because you know, 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm a high energy unit. And then we stuffed Sabrina 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: around and anyway, we'll get to Sabrina in a moment. 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: But it's a long day. So I have here. Now 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say this because it'll ruin my already shonky credibility. 22 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: I've diet coke in this one, and I have tea 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: in this one. So I have hot and cold caffeine 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,840 Speaker 1: just ready to frontal cortex working like a bloody champion. Melissa, 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: how's your day? 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:28,840 Speaker 2: Ben? 27 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: Very good? Thank you very good. It's hard to believe 28 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,280 Speaker 1: that it's the week of Christmas, but no, very good. 29 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:37,959 Speaker 1: How about you are good? And before anyone sends me 30 00:01:37,959 --> 00:01:40,640 Speaker 1: an email saying, oh, I can't believe you drink die coke, 31 00:01:40,720 --> 00:01:43,440 Speaker 1: don't fucking bother. I don't care. I don't have it 32 00:01:43,480 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: that often, but every now and then, when you got 33 00:01:45,480 --> 00:01:48,160 Speaker 1: to interview someone super super smart from the other side 34 00:01:48,160 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: of the world, you need all your neurons firing. 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: Now. 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: I normally don't read bios because they're kind of boring 37 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: and it's not great listening, I think, But Sabrina's is 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: so bloody amazing. I'm going to read it. So batt 39 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: and down the hatches. Get a cup to everyone, Sit 40 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: in your bean bag, put on your slippers, because this 41 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: is not brief. Doctor Sabrina Cohen Hatton is one of 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: the few women who have served at the top of 43 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: the fire service. She combines her role as one of 44 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: the most senior female firefighters in the UK with work 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: as a research fellow at Cardiff University, where she specializes 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: in behavioral neuroscience, in particular how humans make decisions under pressure. 47 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: She's been appointed as the National Fire Chiefs Council International Lead, 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: which will be carried out alongside her position of Fire 49 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: Chief Officer in West Sussex. She also is the author 50 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: of the Heat of the Moment of Fighters Stories of 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: life and death Decisions Could I be reading this any worse? 52 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: Showing resilience and determination from a young age, Sabrina was 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: homeless on the streets of South Wales when she was fifteen. 54 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: After two years on the streets selling the Big issues, 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: she was able to secure accommodation and at eighteen joined 56 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: the Fire Service. While working as a firefighter, she also 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: studied at Open University, the Open University and then at 58 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: Cardiff University, completing her PhD Because You're straight up Smarty 59 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: Pants in psychology. In the Fire Service, Sabrina became one 60 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: of his highest ranking female women officers. She climbed the rank, 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: serving in some of the largest fibrigades in the country 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: while maintaining her academic work with Cardiff University. Her subsequent 63 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: research into high pressure decision making in the emergency services 64 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: not only one awards but also influenced policy at a 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: global level. So you're essentially an underachiever, Sabrina, I've been 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: sitting on your ass for twenty years doing not much. 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: I know it's propetic. I apologize, Yeah. 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,240 Speaker 1: Try a bit harder, were you. 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,480 Speaker 2: Hey? It was really good to see you guys. Thank 70 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: you for having me on the show. 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being part of it. We really appreciate, 72 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, all stupidness aside. That's amazing. Congratulations. Do you 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: when you hear people talking about you? What's the feeling? 74 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: What's there when some bloke that you've never met on 75 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: the other side of the world is telling twenty thousand 76 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: people all about you and it's all this incredible shit, 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: which is, by the way, only a part of it. 78 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot more. Does How do you feel when 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: you hear that? 80 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: It still feels really surreal. Actually, if I'm honest with you, 81 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: when I look back to where it all started, you know, 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: there were some really, really tough times and I think 83 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: everything that I've chosen to do over the course of 84 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 2: my both personally and professionally, actually none of it has 85 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: been easy at all. It's all come with challenges and 86 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: barriers and stuff thrown at you that you didn't expect 87 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: and you didn't want to have. But for me, it's 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: just that everyday reminder to keep on going because life 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 2: is tough and you can't choose what happens to you. 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: You can't even choose how you feel about it, frankly, 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: but what you do have agency over is what you 92 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: choose to do about it next. And that's kind of 93 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: been my philosophy through everything from homelessness to challenges of 94 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: working in the fire department, to the challenges of doing 95 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: trying to do a PhD while you're still working and 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: then combining research. You know, it takes a lot of 97 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: time and effort and energy and it's not easy. It's 98 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: really not easy, But it's just that everyday reminder to 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: keep going. 100 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that, like when I listen to you 101 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: talk about all the stuff that you've done and continue 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: to do, and do you think that the drive that 103 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: you have is just innate? Is that just is that 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: in your DNA or is that that's option one? Option two? 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: Is it a byproduct of where you've been and what 106 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: you've seen and what you've been through the stuff that 107 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: you've endured and navigated, Or option three is it a 108 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: bit of everything? 109 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: Option C? I think certainly. I think that everybody as 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: a predisposition towards certain qualities. But whether or not that 111 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: ever gets extrapolated into the real world is completely dependent 112 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: on the things that you're exposed to and the way 113 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: that you respond to those things as well. So I'll 114 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: give you I'll share with you a story, which is 115 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: why I think some of it is there is an 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: element to it. My grandparents, my grandmother in particular. Oh, 117 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: I think they're awesome people. My grandparents were Moroccan Jews, 118 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: and they were attacked during a pogrom in Gerda in 119 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: Morocco where they lived in nineteen forty eight, and my 120 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: grandmother survived a machete attack. She was attacked and left 121 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: for dead, and when my grandfather went to collect her body, 122 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: he had to pull her out from a pile of 123 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: other corpses unfortunately, and she gasped for air. She was 124 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: still alive, and so they fled Morocco as refugees and 125 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: they started again. Now, despite this experience, my father was 126 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: terminally ill and so my grandmother lived with us for 127 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: a while to care for him. And despite those experiences, 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: what I see from her every day this kind of 129 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: tenacity to keep up and keep on going, and this 130 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: kind of really realistic optimism that everything will be okay. 131 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: It'll be tough, but it will be okay, and such 132 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: compassion and empathy and love that still comes from her 133 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: that I look at her and I think, you know what, 134 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: the world could throw anything at you, and I know 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: that you'd turn it into something good. So I think 136 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 2: there is that kind of that element that comes through 137 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: not just from your from genetically potentially, but also I 138 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: think from those experiences that you have. There's things that 139 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: you learn from other people around you which then inform 140 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: the way that you respond to the environment around you too. 141 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: I lost my father when I was super young. I 142 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: was nine years old, and the thing that that taught 143 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: me is that security isn't guaranteed. Are not safe. It's 144 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 2: that fire under your feet that tells you that you 145 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: know things can happen in life that you don't expect, 146 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: that are really difficult, that it's not always going to 147 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: be as you might imagine or you might plan, and 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: you have to be able to be reactive to that 149 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: and responsive to that. And boy did that ever happen 150 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: when when I was younger. That was a super, super 151 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: tough time. But that realization that the future isn't guaranteed, 152 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: that for me is one of the biggest drivers for 153 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: making it what you want. And it's tiring, you know, 154 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: it can get exhausting when you choose to do tough things. 155 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: But you know what, that's the only way we shift 156 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: the dial is by being brave enough to do those 157 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 2: tough things and being okay with knowing you might fail 158 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: at it, but that's okay because you can get up 159 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: and do it again. You know. 160 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: That's a big I think that's I love that amazing story. 161 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: As your grandma is still alive. 162 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: She is, she's going to be one hundred in February. 163 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Oh God bless her, God bless her she is. That's amazing. 164 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: But it's that, you know, it's that willingness to do 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: all the hard things. You know, like from you, we'll 166 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: go a bit more of your background, but from living 167 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: on the street when you're fifteen too. Here you are doing, 168 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, talking to us whatever it is twenty two three, 169 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: four years later on an international podcast. Not that we're 170 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: a big deal, but I mean talking to people on 171 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: the other side of the world about your story and 172 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: about your journey and about your grandma and about your 173 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: history and about that like it. But you are where 174 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: you are as the author, as the academic, as the researcher, 175 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: as the doctor, as the spokesperson, as this you know, 176 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: superachiever within the fire brigade, you know, just because not 177 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: because anyone handed it to you or said here's the key, 178 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: or not because the opportunity knocked at your door, but 179 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: because you just, for whatever reason were resilient and ambitious 180 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: and driven and had a big worth work ethic and 181 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: fell down and got up a thousand times. Is that 182 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: Can we develop that as well? 183 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: Ye? You can. I really truly believe this. I truly 184 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: believe that you can develop it. Resilience isn't something that 185 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: you know you're innately born with and you have your 186 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: cup full, and depending how full your cup is will 187 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: depend on how resilient you're ever going to be. I 188 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: think that you can learn resilience by repeatedly failing and 189 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: repeatedly getting up again, and repeatedly going back and trying 190 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: to fix the thing that didn't work in the first place. 191 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: Because when that happens, when you fail at something, you 192 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: also learn to grow, You learn how to get back 193 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: up again because you have to do it. And so 194 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: I do think that the more times you put yourself 195 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: in an uncomfortable situation by failing, by making a mistake, 196 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: by doing something that's tough that you don't have the 197 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: confidence that you're ever going to finish. You know, by 198 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: doing those things, you experience that discomfort, but you put 199 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: through it anyway. And then when you realize that all 200 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: of these things that you can do, all of these 201 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: skills that you have, you can do them when you 202 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, it means that you're better prepared for them time. 203 00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: But there is something really powerful for me about failure. 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: I really believe this, because if you don't fail at something, 205 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,840 Speaker 2: then I don't think that you're trying something that's difficult enough, frankly, 206 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: and so for me, there is something really powerful about 207 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: how you respond to failure, not just for yourself, but 208 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: for other people around you as well. I mean, I'm 209 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 2: in the fire service, I work in a team environment. 210 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: And it's really important to me that you can create 211 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: this environment where you know that if somebody fails at something, 212 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: or if you fail at something, people won't respond with 213 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: blame or with judgment, but people will respond in the 214 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: way to say, hey, that's okay, the world will fall down, 215 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: Let's see how we can pick this up again and 216 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: put it together. Because when you do that, you create 217 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: a sense of psychological safety around you. When you have 218 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: psychological safety, people are going to be more likely to 219 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: take a risk, they're going to do something differently, and 220 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: that means they're going to innovate. So I think that's 221 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: a powerful and I feel really strongly that we should 222 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: own our failures with as much conviction as we own 223 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: every success, because frankly, I will learn more about someone 224 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: from seeing the way they respond to one failure than 225 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: I'd ever get from a thousand successes. And I think 226 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: this is part of the problem today, especially with you know, 227 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: so much social media, we see a really kind of 228 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: curated version of everybody's life. And I got to look 229 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: at leaders in the fire service, and they would be 230 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: these great, big, physically imposing, strapping guys predominantly predominantly that 231 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: never seemed to do anything wrong. There always knew the 232 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: answer to everything, that was so full of confidence, even 233 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: if the answer is wrong, they would say it was 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: such confidence that everyone would kind of and believe it right. 235 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: And so I see these people and I'd never see 236 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: them falter. And I used to think, actually, you know, 237 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: there are things that make me feel vulnerable. I know 238 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: that I've made mistakes, I know that I've messed things up, 239 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 2: So you know, how can I possibly compare to those? 240 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: But that's not real. That version isn't real because what 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: you might see is the cherry on top of the cake. 242 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: You haven't seen everything else that goes into it. You 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: haven't seen all the failures. You haven't seen all the 244 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: all the repeated, the repeated attempts before they got to 245 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: that bit. And until we get more comfortable with showing 246 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: that side of us, it's going to be really tricky, 247 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: I think, to kind of show other people that actually 248 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: there is a route through, and it's not clean and 249 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: it's not easy. But if you're if you're not afraid 250 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 2: to roll up your sleeves, then every problem can present 251 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: as an opportunity. If you're not afraid to roll up 252 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: with Steves and get your fingernails a bit dirty. 253 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally love it. I think I 254 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: think the irony is doctor Sabrina. I'm going to keep 255 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: calling you that because you earned it. I think that 256 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: the irony is that we we try, you know, we have. 257 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: So there's the person and then quite often the persona right, 258 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: and what you see with the big, strong, strapping whoever 259 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: who never has got no fear and never deviates and 260 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: gets everything right and always looks you know, that's a 261 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: persona like, that's a fucking act, right. Nobody's that all 262 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: the time, And of course everybody gets things wrong, and 263 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: of course everybody at some stage in some situation is insecure, 264 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: including me. Everybody's got ego, including me. But I think 265 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: the thing is when you own up to your bullshit 266 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: a little bit or a lot, people connect with you more. 267 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: When you're like a cartoon character of perfection, people can't 268 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: identify and people go, well, clearly, I could never do that, 269 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: be that, achieve that because that person he or she 270 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: is a fucking superhero who's flawless and faultless. 271 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: You know. 272 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: But when you can see some of yourself in someone 273 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: who is doing great things, then all of a sudden, 274 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,640 Speaker 1: you go, or maybe I can do great things because 275 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: we ain't that different. Because she's got flaws, he's got flaws. 276 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: I've got flaws, you know, like you like you're living 277 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: on the street for two years. I mean, that's definitely 278 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: not a privileged upbringing. Well, that's definitely not a great 279 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: starting point. But look at what you've done and where 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: you've been and what you've seen, you know, and it's 281 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: that that, you know, I really connect with you when 282 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about like falling down and getting up the 283 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: failure stuff, because it's it's when we do the hard stuff, 284 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the uncomfortable, uncertain, unfamiliar, you know, all the stuff that 285 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: we tend to avoid because we're kind of hardwired for 286 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: pleasure and for instant gratification. Or it's kind of what 287 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: controls a lot of us is that we love that familiar, easy, comfortable, quick, 288 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: painless path. But when we do lean into the mess, 289 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: when we do lean into the pain, when we do 290 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: lean into the darkness, sometimes that's where we change. That's 291 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: where we build strength, resilient, insight, understanding, awareness, competence, you know. 292 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: And then and then as you talk about performing under pressure, well, 293 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: if the pressure around ten people is a constant, But 294 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of that, you're the most resilient, the 295 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: most experienced, the most capable, the most willing to do 296 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: the hard work. You'll have the best experience in that, 297 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: or you'll have at least the most control and the 298 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: most calm. 299 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, that's absolutely right. And it's difficult, 300 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: you know, because life is uncertain and people don't like uncertainty. 301 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: None of us do. Were hard whined for things to 302 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: be really simple and clear, so you know, doing it 303 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: in those kind of environments is tough. But if you're not, 304 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: if you can find the courage to step forward into that, 305 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: then I think people would be really surprised at what 306 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: they're capable of doing and what they're capable of achieving, 307 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: you know. So it's about starting to feel comfortable with 308 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: that discomfort. For me, I think is one of the 309 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: most powerful things as human beings we can do. But look, 310 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: it's tough, you know, And that point about persona and 311 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: the reality of who you are is a really important 312 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: one because you know, as much as we are we 313 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: want to say we don't care about what people's opinions 314 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: of us are. The fact is we're human beings and 315 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: we're hardwired to absorb people's reactions to us as social information. 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: It tells us a lot. So if I think back 317 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: to the time when I was experiencing homelessness, it was 318 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: super tough, and people would decide my value. They would 319 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: decide I was worthless within seconds at nothing more than 320 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: a glance, you know, and to have people judging you 321 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: and worse, you know, people were really cruel with the 322 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: things that they would say. And I've been kicked and 323 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: punched and spat out more times than I care to remember. 324 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: But when you go through that and you experience that, 325 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: I could rationalize, and I could look at that person 326 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: and think, there are seven billion people in the world, 327 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: why should I care about your opinion? You know, you 328 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: don't matter to me, so rationally your response is irrelevant. 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 2: But then why do I feel so bad? And the 330 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: reality is you're absorbing that and it informs the way 331 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: that you expect the next person to respond to you. 332 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: Well so, and then it becomes part of your inner 333 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: narrative and the way that you speak to yourself, and 334 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: eventually you start to absorb that. So, you know, the 335 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: way that people respond to us does have an impact 336 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: on us and how we feel about ourselves and how 337 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: we perceive the world and how we subsequently respond to that, 338 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: and that can be super tough. So there is something 339 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: from me that I've learned throughout this experience about how 340 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 2: I can't control how people respond to me. I can't 341 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: I can respond how I control to other people. And 342 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: being really aware about the impact that you can have 343 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: on somebody else, I think is really really powerful and 344 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: it's something that I try to do every day with 345 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: whoever I'm with. And some of the people who showed 346 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: me the most compassion when I was experiencing homelessness were 347 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: other people who were also experiencing homelessness, and these are 348 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: the people that others were crossing the road to try 349 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: to avoid. But for me, everybody has value. Everybody has potential. 350 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: Sometimes circumstances mean it's really difficult to find the opportunities 351 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 2: that you need to achieve that potential, but it's there. 352 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: Everybody has value, And do you want to help someone 353 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: find that value just in the way that you're conducting 354 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: yourself day to day, in the way someone might respond 355 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: to you, or do you want to hinder it because 356 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: it's easy and you can just let out whatever you're 357 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: feeling or thinking instantly without putting that filter, that filter 358 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: in place first, Hey, is me responding in a really 359 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 2: judgmental way going to help this person? Or is it 360 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: going to make them even worse? You know? And the 361 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: likelihood is actually, if you're responding to someone who's already 362 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: in a really low place by telling them they're worthless, 363 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: you're not going to motivate them to do anything differently. 364 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: So you know, there is something for me about how 365 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: we contribute to that great, big, universal soup that we 366 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: all live in. And are you going to do something 367 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: positive with that or are you going to make it 368 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: a bit worse for someone that day? Yep? 369 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: So on the money, tell us about tell us if what, 370 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: as much or as little as you want. Tell us 371 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: about being homeless for two living on the street, things 372 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: sped on, kicked, punched, abused, all of that. How did 373 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: you end up there? 374 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: Oh? It was so horrible. Honestly. My father was terminally 375 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: ill for some time and he died when I was nine, 376 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 2: And after that my mom found it really difficult to cope. 377 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 2: And so I have a backstory that's by no means 378 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: unique to me. We lived in abject poverty. There were 379 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: huge family rifts there and my mum struggled with her 380 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: mental health. She broke down, her business failed. And one 381 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: thing I've always said is that if somebody goes to 382 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: war with their demons, it's everyone around them that gets 383 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: hit by the shrapnel. And that was totally the case 384 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: in our family. And by the time I was fifteen, 385 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: nearly sixteen, it was too much, it was too difficult. 386 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: I couldn't cope and I left and that's when I 387 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 2: started to sleep rough on the streets of Newport, which 388 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: is a town in South Wales in the year UK. 389 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: And if I can describe Newport to you, it's it's 390 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 2: a it's a town with it was a town then 391 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: it's a city now. But it's a place that has 392 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:10,040 Speaker 2: its challenges. 393 00:21:10,440 --> 00:21:11,120 Speaker 1: It is. 394 00:21:12,800 --> 00:21:17,000 Speaker 2: Deprivation is high, drug use is high, crime is high. 395 00:21:17,240 --> 00:21:20,920 Speaker 2: It's not a lovely place to be and I can 396 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:23,719 Speaker 2: say that with love because I'm from there, but it's not. 397 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 2: It's not a great place. As a sleeping rough there, 398 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:33,080 Speaker 2: of all places, was even harder. I think we had 399 00:21:33,960 --> 00:21:36,960 Speaker 2: a social worker. But when you're when you're raised by 400 00:21:36,960 --> 00:21:39,800 Speaker 2: someone who loves you very much but doesn't have either 401 00:21:39,840 --> 00:21:42,600 Speaker 2: the mental or the physical resources to care for you. 402 00:21:43,080 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 2: Then you see any kind of authority figure through a 403 00:21:46,359 --> 00:21:49,400 Speaker 2: lens of mistrust. And so I was terrified of going 404 00:21:49,440 --> 00:21:53,560 Speaker 2: into care, absolutely terrified. So I started to sleep rough 405 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 2: and i'd sleep in shop doorways. I slept in the 406 00:21:58,359 --> 00:22:00,919 Speaker 2: porch of a derelict church and till we got moved on, 407 00:22:01,560 --> 00:22:05,200 Speaker 2: And then i'd sleep in a derelict building sometimes when 408 00:22:05,960 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 2: when I felt safe enough there too, because lots of 409 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:12,200 Speaker 2: other people also slept there. People used it for drugs 410 00:22:12,240 --> 00:22:15,040 Speaker 2: and things. So I would go to sleep and i'd 411 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:19,160 Speaker 2: have to by literally by the light of a lighter. 412 00:22:19,480 --> 00:22:21,840 Speaker 2: I'd be looking around to make sure that there weren't 413 00:22:21,880 --> 00:22:24,200 Speaker 2: any dirty needles on the floor before i'd bed down 414 00:22:24,200 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 2: for the night. So I didn't always feel safe there. 415 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,840 Speaker 2: Even though it gave some shelter, it wasn't the safest 416 00:22:29,840 --> 00:22:34,440 Speaker 2: place to be. But I still went to school every 417 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:36,439 Speaker 2: day because I didn't want people to know what I 418 00:22:36,480 --> 00:22:38,040 Speaker 2: was going through, because I didn't want to end up 419 00:22:38,080 --> 00:22:41,240 Speaker 2: in hare And that was really hard. And I'll give 420 00:22:41,280 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 2: you I'll give you an example of how tough this was. 421 00:22:44,800 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 2: One day I decided I wanted to go to sleep 422 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:50,800 Speaker 2: somewhere light. And that sounds a bit daft when I 423 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:52,879 Speaker 2: say it out loud now as a grown woman, but 424 00:22:53,520 --> 00:22:55,600 Speaker 2: it was just fed up of not even having the 425 00:22:56,160 --> 00:22:59,240 Speaker 2: control to turn a light on or off. So I 426 00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,639 Speaker 2: went to sleep in a subway because it had the 427 00:23:02,640 --> 00:23:06,879 Speaker 2: strip lighting there, and I put my cardboard down, because 428 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:09,480 Speaker 2: when you go to sleep on concrete, it's so cold, 429 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 2: it doesn't matter how warm it might be outside. It's 430 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:17,280 Speaker 2: so cold it like literally leeches the heat from your bones. 431 00:23:17,320 --> 00:23:20,120 Speaker 2: It's awful. So I'd always sleep on cardboard. I had 432 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,080 Speaker 2: a sleeping bag and I bed it down for the night, 433 00:23:22,200 --> 00:23:25,000 Speaker 2: and I had a stray dog, straight dog. I was 434 00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:27,159 Speaker 2: a stray girl. It seemed to work. And he used 435 00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:29,520 Speaker 2: to sleep in the bottom of my sleeping bag. And 436 00:23:29,560 --> 00:23:33,200 Speaker 2: we'll touch on dogs a bit later, but he would 437 00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,119 Speaker 2: sleep in the bottom of my sleeping bag. And the 438 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 2: one this day, I woke up, it must have been 439 00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:41,040 Speaker 2: early hours of the morning. I couldn't tell you exactly, 440 00:23:41,680 --> 00:23:43,879 Speaker 2: but I woke up to the sound of some drunk 441 00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:48,159 Speaker 2: guy laughing, and I kind of I poked my head 442 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:50,119 Speaker 2: up on my sleeping bag with felt warm and wet, 443 00:23:50,160 --> 00:23:52,520 Speaker 2: and I just thought my initial reaction was Oh my god, 444 00:23:52,600 --> 00:23:55,199 Speaker 2: my dog's gone to the toilet my sleeping bag. But 445 00:23:55,240 --> 00:23:56,960 Speaker 2: as I poked my head out, I could see this 446 00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 2: guy leaning back on his heels with his kind of 447 00:24:00,400 --> 00:24:04,840 Speaker 2: belt undone, just laughing. He was urinating on my sleeping bag. 448 00:24:04,880 --> 00:24:07,199 Speaker 2: He thought it would be hilarious on his way back 449 00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:09,520 Speaker 2: from the club or the pub or whatever to do 450 00:24:09,600 --> 00:24:11,920 Speaker 2: that to the first homeless person he saw, which happened 451 00:24:11,960 --> 00:24:17,040 Speaker 2: to be me, And it was the most dehumanizing and 452 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,960 Speaker 2: humiliating experience. But look, I don't think that he thought 453 00:24:21,960 --> 00:24:25,879 Speaker 2: this through because, as it transpires, dogs don't particularly like 454 00:24:25,960 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: being urinated on in the middle of the night either, 455 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:29,520 Speaker 2: And that's not the kind of thing you want to 456 00:24:29,520 --> 00:24:32,680 Speaker 2: wave around it. And I don't think you'll be doing 457 00:24:32,680 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: it again anytime soon. But you know, but the hang on, hang. 458 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: On, are you telling me the dog beat him on 459 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: the dick? 460 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you I don't think he'll do it 461 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: again soon, because I didn't think that he wanted the 462 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: response that he got from the angry dog. 463 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: So I hope, I hope you dog beat him on 464 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the dick. That's the best, Well, that's the best out 465 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: of a bad story ever. He was and there's the 466 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: title for the show. You're welcome. Thanks everyone. That was Sabrina, 467 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: the bloke who got his dick bit. Sorry, keep going 468 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: to the pirna. 469 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: No, no, it's fine, it's fine, but look the practicality 470 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: of that. I had nowhere to go, no clean bedding, 471 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: I had no clean clothes. So I went and I 472 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: just sat on a bench in the middle of the 473 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: town center, and I pulled my knees up to my 474 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 2: chest and I just sat there, stopping. I was sixteen 475 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: at this time. I sat there sobbing until the sun 476 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: came up the next morning, and then the bus station 477 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: toilets would open up at about six o'clock in the morning. 478 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 2: So I went down. I went to the sink. I 479 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 2: cleaned myself as best as I could. I went into 480 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: the toilet cubicle. I locked the door behind me. I 481 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: put my bag on the toilet seat, and I pulled 482 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: out a scrumpled up school uniform, and I took off 483 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: my urine smelling clothes. I put my uniform and then 484 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 2: I waited for the bus and I went to school. 485 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: No one would have known why I was responding the 486 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: way I was that day, or behaving the way that 487 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: I was that day or had no interest in learning 488 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: or anything. No one would have what I went through, 489 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: but I did, and it was awful. And again it's 490 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 2: another early lesson in empathy for me, because we meet 491 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: people every day right that we think, I really don't 492 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: understand your perspective or no idea why you're responding like that, 493 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: you'll bang out of line, But actually we never know 494 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: what they've been through that day before we've had that 495 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: interaction either. So it was a really timely reminder. But 496 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: I had some really difficult times. And I just want 497 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: to touch on that point about a dog, because I 498 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: know lots of people have opinions on people experiencing homelessness 499 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: who have dogs. And I say that very deliberately because 500 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: homelessness is an experience. You're not a homeless person. That 501 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: shouldn't be part of your identity. But lots of people 502 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: would pass judgment at me because I had a dog. 503 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: He was my companion, and it was really horrible some 504 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: of the stuff that people would say, you know, you 505 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: can't even look after yourself. Who the hell do you 506 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: think you are having a dog? You're cruel, You're this, 507 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: you're that. But actually no one ends up experiencing homelessness 508 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: unless they are completely socially isolated. So that dog, he 509 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: was the only source of social comfort and emotional comfort 510 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: and stability that I had for me. That relationship was 511 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: so meaningful. He was where my world started and where 512 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: it ended in a place where everything else was super chaotic. 513 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: He was the one stability, piece of stability that I had, 514 00:27:29,560 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: and he got cared for better than me, by the way. 515 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 2: But dogs are a super important part of my life. 516 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 2: Now I've got three. I'll always keep dogs, and I 517 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: just love that point of connection that they can give 518 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: and that companionship that they can offer when you can 519 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: otherwise be completely isolated and lonely from everything else. They're amazing, amazing. 520 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: We love dogs at the EU Project, we do, we do. 521 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: We're both dog people. Melissa's crazy dogs and there we do. 522 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: We love dogs, so we completely understand. But also the 523 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: thing is dogs love you, you know, unconditionally. There's no hooks, 524 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: catchers and genders and who people think, Tony because you 525 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: give them food. Have never had a dog. It's so 526 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: not just about that, unless it's a Labrador, then it's 527 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: all about food. I'm many kidding. 528 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: Don't send just about to start some canine research as well. 529 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: So I've got all the kind of human decision making 530 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: stuff going on, but I've got a bit of a 531 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: passion project looking at dogs and in particular extreme behavioral 532 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: problems and what we can do to try to extinguish 533 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: those behaviors rather than these dogs being put to sleep. 534 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: But as a result, I've been looking at loads of 535 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: the neuroscience around dogs, and they actually get something very 536 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: specific about their interaction with a human in comparison to 537 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 2: their interaction with another dog. And so the amazing thing 538 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: about dogs is they've survived for thousands of years predominantly 539 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: by living by cohabiting within human social groups. So they've 540 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: evolved these exemplary cross species communication skills that are unparalleled 541 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: in the rest of the animal kingdom. So I can 542 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: guarantee you that when your dog looks at you, when 543 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: your dog is gazing into your eyes, the research has 544 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: shown that they're releasing oxytocin, which we know in humans 545 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: it's been associated with trust and social bonding and even love. 546 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 2: It's a really super important neuropeptide. So anyway, dogs are 547 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: releasing that when they're looking at you, so they may 548 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: well be experiencing some kind of rudimentary form of love. 549 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: But they certainly get something different from their relationship with 550 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: humans than they do with other dogs. And it's not 551 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: just it's not just the dopaminergic pleasure pathways that they 552 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: get by going, oh, you're going to give me food, 553 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: I'm associating you with food. It's a deeper, different kind 554 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: of relationship that is also linked with their social bonding 555 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 2: that they have with you in yeah. 556 00:30:01,400 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: I'm with you, yep, yep. Don't have to convince me. 557 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: What made you? It's probably not the right question. How 558 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: did you end up in being a being a firefighter 559 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: or a fire off? So I don't know what the 560 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: correct term is in Britain, But how did that opportunity 561 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: present itself? Is it something you pursued? Is that a 562 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:31,840 Speaker 1: door that opened? How did you end up doing that? Well? 563 00:30:32,280 --> 00:30:35,880 Speaker 2: Initially, I hadn't thought about anything more than surviving day 564 00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,600 Speaker 2: today when I was experiencing homelessness. When you're in that position, 565 00:30:39,680 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have the headspace to put a strategy 566 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,360 Speaker 2: together to live because it is literally a surviving day 567 00:30:47,360 --> 00:30:50,720 Speaker 2: to day. And I started to sell a street magazine 568 00:30:50,800 --> 00:30:52,920 Speaker 2: called The Big Issue. I don't know if you have 569 00:30:52,960 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: an equivalent. We have amazing, amazing. 570 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: It's sold literally on the street that I live. 571 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: Ah, fantastic, fantastic. Well, the big issue for me was 572 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: it was a lifeline and I'd buy this magazine for 573 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: cost price and I'd sell it on for a profit, 574 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: and eventually I started to sell it in Newport, but 575 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: there were quite a few other people that also sold 576 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: it in Newport, so you were kind of hand to mouth. 577 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: So I found this village. It was an hour away 578 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: on a bus, but no one else was selling it there, 579 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,680 Speaker 2: so it was a place called Monmoth. I would get 580 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: on a bus, I'd sit there from seven o'clock in 581 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: the morning till seven o'clock at night, till i'd sold 582 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: a stack of magazines, and eventually I managed to earn 583 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: enough to put a deposit down on a very cheap 584 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: and very nasty rented flat in the South Wales Valleys. 585 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: There are a few failed attempts at secure accommodation, including 586 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 2: a shared house that I managed to get a room in, 587 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: but I was quite violently attacked one of the guys. 588 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,560 Speaker 2: They put me in hospital, so I was back out 589 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: on the streets. I spent some time living in a van, 590 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: but eventually secure accommodation became a reality for me, and 591 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: it was at that point I started to think what 592 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: else might become a reality for me. And the reason 593 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: I started to think about the fire service is because 594 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: I think it's actually a real privilege to be a 595 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: firefighter because people trust you to know what to do 596 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: when they're having the worst day of their lives. They 597 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: don't call you unless they don't know what to do next. 598 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: It's an extreme situation and so to be the one 599 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: that's trusted to know what to do to either stop 600 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: that or at least stop it getting any worse, that's 601 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: really incredible. And I felt like I could relate to 602 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: it because I'd had the best part of two years 603 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: of feeling like I was the desperate one in need 604 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: of help but no one was coming. And although the 605 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: context was different, I think the sentiment was the same. 606 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: And so I started to look at the fire service 607 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: and I must have applied to about thirty different fire 608 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 2: departments before or fire services is there in the UK 609 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: before I actually got a position. It was super tough 610 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: and super competitive. I started off part time as a 611 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,440 Speaker 2: retained firefighter's like a volunteer firefighter and then eventually got 612 00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:06,840 Speaker 2: a whole time position and I was woman number seven 613 00:33:06,960 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 2: in a workforce of seventeen hundred men. When I first started, nationally, 614 00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,440 Speaker 2: only one percent of operational firefighters were women, so they 615 00:33:14,480 --> 00:33:17,080 Speaker 2: were very very few of us, and I naively kind 616 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 2: of went in thinking, Hey, this is going to be 617 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,440 Speaker 2: amazing and it's going to be like one big, happy family. 618 00:33:22,040 --> 00:33:25,080 Speaker 2: And it was that point that I realized what sexism 619 00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,080 Speaker 2: actually felt like. You know, it was super And Whilst 620 00:33:28,120 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 2: I worked with some incredible people who are still like 621 00:33:31,040 --> 00:33:33,200 Speaker 2: big brothers and sisters to me to this very day, 622 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,480 Speaker 2: who pushed me to do things that I never thought 623 00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 2: I was capable of, I also worked with some people 624 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:41,400 Speaker 2: who took exception to the fact that I was a 625 00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,440 Speaker 2: woman and if I could do it, then I think 626 00:33:44,480 --> 00:33:48,000 Speaker 2: it made them feel less matcho. It was a It 627 00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:50,640 Speaker 2: affected their sense of identity and their sense of who 628 00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:52,719 Speaker 2: they were, so it doesn't didn't matter who I was. 629 00:33:53,240 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 2: The fact that I was coming in is something that 630 00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,200 Speaker 2: was so far removed from how they saw themselves and 631 00:33:59,360 --> 00:34:02,400 Speaker 2: was doing it, you know, I was, I could do it, 632 00:34:02,440 --> 00:34:08,040 Speaker 2: I could do the job. That then says to that person, hey, 633 00:34:08,440 --> 00:34:11,120 Speaker 2: that's completely different to the way that you see yourself. 634 00:34:11,200 --> 00:34:14,480 Speaker 2: And so I think some men have found it slightly emasculinating. 635 00:34:14,560 --> 00:34:17,640 Speaker 2: Not everybody, but some, and the ones that did were 636 00:34:17,680 --> 00:34:20,680 Speaker 2: really prepared to let me know about it. In fact, 637 00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 2: there was this one guy that I used to come 638 00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,600 Speaker 2: across who worked at a neighboring station. Every time i'd 639 00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:28,560 Speaker 2: see him, without fail, he'd say, Yeah, the thing is, 640 00:34:28,600 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 2: I just don't agree with women in the fire service. 641 00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:32,680 Speaker 2: No offense to you, Sabrina, you know, but I just 642 00:34:32,760 --> 00:34:35,000 Speaker 2: don't agree with it. It's not a thing. It shouldn't happen. 643 00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:39,200 Speaker 2: It's dangerous. You know, you'll get firefighters killed. And eventually, 644 00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,759 Speaker 2: bear in mind, I was eighteen at this point, and 645 00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,920 Speaker 2: I kind of thought, I need to apologize for my 646 00:34:43,960 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 2: own existence here do I? But then eventually I kind 647 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 2: of got to the point where I'd be like, no, 648 00:34:48,400 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 2: I'm not having this, and I'd say, yeah, you know. 649 00:34:50,600 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 1: I get it. 650 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,280 Speaker 2: I feel you. I feel exactly the same way about 651 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 2: morons in the fire service. We shouldn't no offense to you, fella, 652 00:34:57,600 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: but here we are, you know, idiot. 653 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: You know what would be the perfect end to that story, 654 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: And now I'm his boss that would be so good, 655 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: And now he drives me to appointments now, me and 656 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: my dog. 657 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: I suspect he's actually re tired now. But look, you know, 658 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we've all said things in the past that 659 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: we regret, right, And we've all said things that have 660 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: hurt someone and maybe we didn't realize it at the time. 661 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: And I hope that as time has moved on, he's 662 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: had the chance to reflect on that. I don't know how. 663 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: Maybe he's had a daughter in the meantime and he's 664 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: kind of seen firsthand some of the challenges and how 665 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: it affects someone. But you know, I don't hold it 666 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: against him. Everyone can change. Everyone is entitled to have 667 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 2: an opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. 668 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 2: But it's a harmful one. 669 00:35:50,719 --> 00:35:50,879 Speaker 1: Hey. 670 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:52,400 Speaker 2: It gives us a chance to call it out and 671 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,759 Speaker 2: talk about it. And here I am now, you know, 672 00:35:55,000 --> 00:35:58,080 Speaker 2: twenty one years later, being able to talk about it 673 00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,919 Speaker 2: and talk about the damage that it does because people 674 00:36:00,040 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 2: still have those conversations today. So it's an opportunity. 675 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: So you still currently am I right, Sabrenna and saying 676 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: you're the current chief Fire Officer of West Sussex Fire 677 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: and Rescue service. So does that mean you how many 678 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: people at that station are you in charge of? 679 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: So it's a fire to it's a fire service rather 680 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 2: rather than just a station. So we have twenty five 681 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: stations in my fire service, all in all nearly one 682 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 2: thousand stuff but just under a thousand stuff. 683 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: You're in charge of one thousand staff and twenty five 684 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: centers or stations. Wow, that's bloody amazing. Good for you. 685 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: That is so incredible, all right, and I'm not surprised. 686 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: I'm just impressed. What's your if there is one? What's 687 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: your leadership style? Because it definitely ain't old mate that 688 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: you just spoke about before. 689 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: No, No, definitely not. And I think you know, it 690 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: changes depending on the context. There are times when you 691 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: need to be quite authoritative to get a job done, 692 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: particularly operationally, but I always try to do it with 693 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 2: empathy and with humility. So for me, the most important 694 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 2: thing about your day to day leadership, I think is 695 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: to lead without ego and to lead with humility and 696 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: to be okay with vulnerability. You know, in my experiences, 697 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: they've been they were really tough to talk about. You know, 698 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: it took me more than twenty years to talk about 699 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 2: my experience of homelessness because it made me feel a 700 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 2: shape it shouldn't, but that's that's the truth. That's how 701 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: that was, that kind of aching feeling in my stomach 702 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: that I got every time I tried to talk to 703 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: anyone about it, and it made me feel like I 704 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 2: couldn't be like those other leaders that I'd see in 705 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: the fire industry, in the fire department that would be 706 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: you know, that would always know the answers and they 707 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: would always be the ones that you want to say 708 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 2: and you what to do, and made everyone feel safe 709 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: and secure, or so I thought. The reality is actually, 710 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: when somebody is so imposing on you, it can make 711 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: you feel insecure, not secure, because you have those vulnerabilities. Right. 712 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: So for me, it is about being self aware always 713 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: and leading that humility and putting other people's needs in 714 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 2: front of your own. You know, when anyone goes into 715 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: a workplace, right I see it. I choose to see 716 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: it like a family. And I know there are lots 717 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 2: of reasons why you may not want to do that, 718 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: because you know family and work boundaries are separation. I 719 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: think for me, in this industry, given its high risk, 720 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: given you rely so deeply on those other people around 721 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: you to be able to do extraordinary things to save 722 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: people's lives. I think it is important that you recognize 723 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: that bond and that element of trust within that. So 724 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: I do see it as a family. And I look 725 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: at my own daughter, and she's twelve now, and you know, 726 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: I send her to school. I try to give her 727 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: all the experiences that I can, so she'll grow up 728 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: to be a successful hum Hman being right, and she'll 729 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 2: be good for the world generally, and she'll be good 730 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: to people in the world. So as a parent, try 731 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: to give your child all that, and then they go 732 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: off and they go into the world of work, and 733 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: you let go of the reins, and then you're trusting 734 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 2: that whatever organization they go into are going to treat 735 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 2: them with the same kind of dignity, the same kind 736 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: of respect, give them that opportunity for growth, give them 737 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: the opportunity to be part of something that's bigger than themselves. 738 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: And so I think, certainly for me, when you talk 739 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: about leadership style, I want it to feel like that. 740 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 2: I want it to feel like we're caring for people, 741 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: like they're part of our own family, and we might 742 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 2: not always get it right, you know, not everyone is 743 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: going to have the perfect experience within that but as 744 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 2: part and parcel of it being real because you respond 745 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: to those things and you make it better, so someone 746 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: else has a better experience that comes in behind them. 747 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 2: But I'm not afraid to fail, and I'm not afraid 748 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 2: to talk about those failures because I think that that 749 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: is a SuperM or part of how other people can 750 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 2: then find what they need to be able to do 751 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: something difficult, or to do something innovative or something that 752 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 2: comes with a degree of risk because they're not afraid 753 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 2: that failure means that that's terminal. So that's the way 754 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 2: that I tried to look at it. It's not always 755 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 2: it's not always easy. I try to combine. I do 756 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: combine my research work with my day job as well, 757 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 2: and we do a lot of work around firefighter safety, 758 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 2: and that's based on the same principle for me about 759 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: how we can genuinely make things better, how we can 760 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 2: help you. And that research actually came from an experience 761 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 2: that I had where my husband and I, before we 762 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 2: were married, were both firefighters on neighboring stations, and one 763 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 2: day I was called to deal with an incident where 764 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: another firefighter had been severely burned, and there was a 765 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: one and four chance it was him, and so I 766 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,479 Speaker 2: had awful sinking feeling where I went down. We were 767 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: in the appliance bay, the bells had gone down that 768 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 2: a couple of guys were stood at the teleprinter looking 769 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 2: at the sheet of paper. And it took me a 770 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,720 Speaker 2: few seconds to register why everyone was kind of looking 771 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 2: so worried and so nervous. And I said, what is it? 772 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 2: And I said it's a firefighter injury. It looks really bad. 773 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 2: And I said, well, why aren't we going? And they 774 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 2: said it's it's Mike's truck. It might be Mike. And 775 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 2: I felt what a world collapsed at that point, and 776 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 2: I felt like I was about to become one of 777 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: the people that we see every day who wake up 778 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 2: to a bowl of corn flakes and complete normality, only 779 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 2: for something to happen unexpectedly and their entire world gets 780 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 2: torn apart. And as we were traveling there, I remember 781 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 2: thinking that I was really torn between the role of 782 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 2: a responder and all of the kind of responsibility and 783 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: accountability that goes with that, but also the role of 784 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 2: a loved one and all of the kind the kind 785 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: of fears and anxieties that go with that as well. Anyway, 786 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 2: we turned up and thankfully for me at least, it 787 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 2: turned out not to be him, but it was our 788 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 2: colleague who was also a friend. And it was after 789 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 2: that that I al really started to think about this 790 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 2: and it played on my mind. And what they've been 791 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: called to was an exploding pavement. I don't know what 792 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: your experiences of either explosions or pavements, but they don't 793 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 2: traditionally tend to go together. So they turned up eating 794 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: it as a hoax. They thought it was nonsense. What 795 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: it actually was was an underground electrical junction box that 796 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 2: had a fault in it, and periodically, as electricity went 797 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 2: through it, it would shoot up flame like a jet engine 798 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 2: at the ground and Mike had been lying on his 799 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: belly with his head in the pit, poking around wondering 800 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 2: what on earth this so called exploding pavement could be. 801 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: And it was as he got up to put the 802 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: lid back in that it exploded and caught our colleague 803 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: clean in the face. Thankfully, he survived and he's made 804 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 2: a full recovery now. But if it was seconds earlier, 805 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind that Mike would have 806 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 2: been killed outright. And so after that I started to 807 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 2: feel this intense sense of guilt because I felt like 808 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: by not wanting it to be him so much on 809 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: someone else. And I found that really difficult to reconcile. 810 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: And it was then that I started to look at 811 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 2: what we could do to make it better for other 812 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 2: people in the same kind of circumstance, And naively, I thought, 813 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 2: if we can develop a better burns pack, maybe we'd 814 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: be better prepared. So I started off trying to do that, 815 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: and as I started to look into it, I discovered 816 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 2: something that astounded me, and that's the majority of injuries 817 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: across all industries, not just fire, happened as a result 818 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 2: of human error, not a problem with a piece of 819 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 2: equipment or a flawed policy, but a human mistake. The 820 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 2: wrong choice in the wrong place at the wrong time. 821 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 2: For that meant someone would get hurt. And so that 822 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 2: for me was the driver to go back and look 823 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 2: at what we could do to understand human error to 824 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 2: reduce it. And so, as you know, I left home 825 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: really early at fifteen. I left school at sixteen, so 826 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 2: I didn't have a degree or qualification. So I thought Okay, 827 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 2: I'll put one foot in front of the other and 828 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 2: see where I end up. So I went back to 829 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 2: night school. I did my degree part time while working 830 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 2: all the way up to a PhD, which I did 831 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 2: d'd around work. So I'd go into the lab at 832 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning, I'd run my experiments. I'd 833 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 2: go and i'd pull a full shift in the fire service. 834 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 2: I'd go home, put my new one baby to bed 835 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 2: because that was amazing timing, wasn't it. And I'd go 836 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 2: back to the lab for the night shift and I'd 837 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: be there until kind of twelve one o'clock in the 838 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,439 Speaker 2: morning sometimes. So I finished a seven year part time 839 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 2: PhD in three years. They had to re register me 840 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 2: as full time so I could submit early. And then 841 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,399 Speaker 2: since then for the last decade, now, well it will 842 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 2: be more than that was twenty ten that we started, 843 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 2: so more than a decade. We've been looking at how 844 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: firefighters and frontline responders make decisions actually in the heat 845 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 2: of the moment, actually at incidents live. We can understand 846 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,879 Speaker 2: them better so that we can find techniques that can 847 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 2: help them to make better decisions. And we developed some 848 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 2: techniques in the UK that actually changed our national policy 849 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 2: for the way that we respond to incidents, for how 850 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 2: we train our firefighters differently now to make decisions in 851 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 2: a different way because of this research and this work 852 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 2: that we did, and so, you know, coming from such 853 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 2: a kind of small a corner of an idea, you know, 854 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that we were able to do something practical, 855 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 2: and we've notched the science along as well. We're up 856 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 2: to our I think tenth Global Science Award for the work. 857 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,399 Speaker 2: It's been incredible and I never ever would have thought 858 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 2: when I look back to how I felt when we 859 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 2: were on that truck and I felt like my entire 860 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 2: world was going to collapse in that moment. When I 861 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 2: look back to that particular point in time and I 862 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 2: think where we are now, what we've been able to do, 863 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 2: I would never have been able to see it at 864 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 2: the time. Someone would have said, Hey, this awful thing 865 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 2: is going to happen, but you know what, it's going 866 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 2: to be the biggest opportunity that you're going to have. 867 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have paid them. There's no way I could 868 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 2: have seen it. But it's true. It's true. 869 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: What a beautiful synergy between your job and your or 870 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: your two jobs really your research job and you know, 871 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: your firefight, your job in the fire service, you know, 872 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: and to be able to you know, use both of them, 873 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: and to be able to use your research background and 874 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: your role as a PhD and all of that, but 875 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: to be able to carry out that kind of research. 876 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: And I guess you don't struggle for participants because you 877 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: can just go you're a participant. What do you mean 878 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: you don't want to? 879 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 2: Yes, you are, you know, like to. 880 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: All our people, our listeners, who are going, what are 881 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: we talking about? When you do PhD research? One of 882 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: the struggles and I've been very fortunate also because they 883 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: have an audience, Sabrena. But one of the big struggles 884 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: is actually to get people to participate in your studies 885 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: because people like, how what's in it for me? But 886 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: I guess when you're in charge of a thousand people, 887 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: you go right and you two hundred are doing this, 888 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,919 Speaker 1: You're welcome, and it's all for the greater good. 889 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 2: We always got for volunteers, We always got for volunteers. 890 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 2: But to be fair, I think, you know, improving the 891 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 2: safety of firefighters is something that all firefights cared deeply 892 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 2: about because these are people that we're really close to. 893 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 2: You know that it's not it's not just a colleague, 894 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: it's it's more than that. So anything that we can 895 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 2: do to keep people around us safer, I find people 896 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 2: are really willing to get involved with. So we've been 897 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 2: really blessed. Actually, we've had no shortage of volunteers for 898 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 2: the for the research that we've been doing over. 899 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: Of course you're their fucking boss, as if they're going 900 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: to say no. Amazingly, Amazingly, we've had no shortage. Well, 901 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: of course you're thess oh god, just hitting the pause 902 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: button momentarily as we do. 903 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:55,760 Speaker 2: Team. 904 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,879 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with part two of this conversation. 905 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: Stand by, enjoy your day