1 00:00:00,520 --> 00:00:02,719 Speaker 1: Good a Team. It's Harps and Melissa. Just a little 2 00:00:02,759 --> 00:00:05,440 Speaker 1: pre intro intro. I'm not sure what you would call 3 00:00:05,480 --> 00:00:09,200 Speaker 1: that a printro. I'm not sure. Fuck it. So I 4 00:00:09,240 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: did a conversation very recently with the fabulous Sabrina. It 5 00:00:14,720 --> 00:00:18,079 Speaker 1: turned out to be quite long, so, as we often do, 6 00:00:18,200 --> 00:00:20,760 Speaker 1: we chopped it into So this is part one of 7 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:25,919 Speaker 1: a two part conversation. Honestly, one of my favorite chats 8 00:00:26,040 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: of the last year with somebody who is smart and 9 00:00:29,840 --> 00:00:32,760 Speaker 1: all of that, accomplished, successful, all of that, but for me, 10 00:00:33,680 --> 00:00:36,760 Speaker 1: one of the most inspirational people that I've spoken to 11 00:00:36,960 --> 00:00:39,360 Speaker 1: in a long time. Anyway, this is part one of Sabrina. 12 00:00:39,680 --> 00:00:44,360 Speaker 1: Enjoy the shit out of it. Good a Team, your 13 00:00:44,360 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: bloody champions you. It's typ of course, it is the 14 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:51,880 Speaker 1: You project. It's Lates, it's Late's Melissa and I. It's 15 00:00:52,120 --> 00:00:54,920 Speaker 1: six minutes past nine and I turned into a pumpkin 16 00:00:54,960 --> 00:00:56,960 Speaker 1: at about nine point thirty Melissa, as you well know, 17 00:00:57,320 --> 00:00:59,920 Speaker 1: because I get up at five o'clock because you know, 18 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:05,840 Speaker 1: I'm a high energy unit. And then we stuffed Sabrina 19 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:09,160 Speaker 1: around and anyway, we'll get to Sabrina in a moment. 20 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:11,520 Speaker 1: But it's a long day. So I have here. Now 21 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,800 Speaker 1: I shouldn't say this because it'll ruin my already shonky credibility. 22 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:18,280 Speaker 1: I've diet coke in this one, and I have tea 23 00:01:18,319 --> 00:01:22,160 Speaker 1: in this one. So I have hot and cold caffeine 24 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:27,880 Speaker 1: just ready to frontal cortex working like a bloody champion. Melissa, 25 00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:28,600 Speaker 1: how's your day? 26 00:01:28,640 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: Ben? Very good? 27 00:01:30,000 --> 00:01:32,560 Speaker 1: Thank you very good. It's hard to believe that it's 28 00:01:32,600 --> 00:01:35,680 Speaker 1: the week of Christmas, but no, very good. How about 29 00:01:35,720 --> 00:01:38,960 Speaker 1: you are good? And before anyone sends me an email saying, oh, 30 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:41,559 Speaker 1: I can't believe you drink die coke, don't fucking bother. 31 00:01:41,680 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 1: I don't care. I don't have it that often, but 32 00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,279 Speaker 1: every now and then, when you got to interview someone 33 00:01:46,360 --> 00:01:48,639 Speaker 1: super super smart from the other side of the world, 34 00:01:49,120 --> 00:01:50,920 Speaker 1: you need all your neurons firing. 35 00:01:52,120 --> 00:01:52,440 Speaker 2: Now. 36 00:01:52,720 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: I normally don't read bios because they're kind of boring 37 00:01:55,480 --> 00:02:00,320 Speaker 1: and it's not great listening, I think, But Sabrina's is 38 00:02:00,400 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: so bloody amazing. I'm going to read it. So batt 39 00:02:04,160 --> 00:02:07,120 Speaker 1: and down the hatches. Get a cup to everyone, Sit 40 00:02:07,160 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: in your bean bag, put on your slippers, because this 41 00:02:09,160 --> 00:02:13,760 Speaker 1: is not brief. Doctor Sabrina Cohen Hatton is one of 42 00:02:13,800 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 1: the few women who have served at the top of 43 00:02:15,639 --> 00:02:17,920 Speaker 1: the fire service. She combines her role as one of 44 00:02:17,919 --> 00:02:21,800 Speaker 1: the most senior female firefighters in the UK with work 45 00:02:21,840 --> 00:02:25,000 Speaker 1: as a research fellow at Cardiff University, where she specializes 46 00:02:25,040 --> 00:02:30,440 Speaker 1: in behavioral neuroscience, in particular how humans make decisions under pressure. 47 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:35,240 Speaker 1: She's been appointed as the National Fire Chiefs Council International Lead, 48 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:38,600 Speaker 1: which will be carried out alongside her position of Fire 49 00:02:38,680 --> 00:02:42,359 Speaker 1: Chief Officer in West Sussex. She also is the author 50 00:02:42,560 --> 00:02:46,360 Speaker 1: of the Heat of the Moment of Fighters Stories of 51 00:02:46,400 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: life and death Decisions Could I be reading this any worse? 52 00:02:49,919 --> 00:02:52,919 Speaker 1: Showing resilience and determination from a young age, Sabrina was 53 00:02:52,960 --> 00:02:56,639 Speaker 1: homeless on the streets of South Wales when she was fifteen. 54 00:02:56,760 --> 00:02:59,000 Speaker 1: After two years on the streets selling the Big issues, 55 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,800 Speaker 1: she was able to secure accommodation and at eighteen joined 56 00:03:03,200 --> 00:03:06,120 Speaker 1: the Fire Service. While working as a firefighter, she also 57 00:03:06,200 --> 00:03:09,520 Speaker 1: studied at Open University, the Open University and then at 58 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:13,080 Speaker 1: Cardiff University, completing her PhD Because You're straight up Smarty 59 00:03:13,120 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: Pants in psychology. In the Fire Service, Sabrina became one 60 00:03:17,560 --> 00:03:20,959 Speaker 1: of his highest ranking female women officers. She climbed the rank, 61 00:03:21,040 --> 00:03:23,440 Speaker 1: serving in some of the largest fibrigades in the country 62 00:03:23,880 --> 00:03:28,080 Speaker 1: while maintaining her academic work with Cardiff University. Her subsequent 63 00:03:28,160 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: research into high pressure decision making in the emergency services 64 00:03:31,639 --> 00:03:35,640 Speaker 1: not only one awards but also influenced policy at a 65 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 1: global level. So you're essentially an underachiever, Sabrina, I've been 66 00:03:40,680 --> 00:03:43,640 Speaker 1: sitting on your ass for twenty years doing not much. 67 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 2: I know it's propetic. I apologize, Yeah. 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 1: Try a bit harder, were you? 69 00:03:51,560 --> 00:03:53,560 Speaker 2: He was really good to see you guys. Thank you 70 00:03:53,600 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 2: for having me on the show. 71 00:03:55,000 --> 00:03:57,520 Speaker 1: Well, thank you for being part of it. We really appreciate, 72 00:03:57,600 --> 00:04:02,360 Speaker 1: you know, all stupidness aside. That's amazing. Congratulations. Do you 73 00:04:02,920 --> 00:04:07,160 Speaker 1: when you hear people talking about you? What's the feeling? 74 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:10,680 Speaker 1: What's there when some bloke that you've never met on 75 00:04:10,720 --> 00:04:12,800 Speaker 1: the other side of the world is telling twenty thousand 76 00:04:12,880 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: people all about you and it's all this incredible shit, 77 00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:17,240 Speaker 1: which is, by the way, only a part of it. 78 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:20,000 Speaker 1: There's a lot more. Does How do you feel when 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:20,480 Speaker 1: you hear that? 80 00:04:21,839 --> 00:04:24,640 Speaker 2: It still feels really surreal. Actually, if I'm honest with you, 81 00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,359 Speaker 2: when I look back to where it all started, you know, 82 00:04:28,440 --> 00:04:31,440 Speaker 2: there were some really really tough times and I think 83 00:04:31,560 --> 00:04:35,120 Speaker 2: everything that I've chosen to do over the course of 84 00:04:35,160 --> 00:04:39,839 Speaker 2: my both personally and professionally. Actually none of it has 85 00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:43,880 Speaker 2: been easy at all. It's all come with challenges and 86 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:48,039 Speaker 2: barriers and stuff thrown at you that you didn't expect 87 00:04:48,080 --> 00:04:51,560 Speaker 2: and you didn't want to have. But for me, it's 88 00:04:51,640 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 2: just that everyday reminder to keep on going because life 89 00:04:55,040 --> 00:04:57,239 Speaker 2: is tough and you can't choose what happens to you. 90 00:04:57,240 --> 00:04:59,359 Speaker 2: You can't even choose how you feel about it, frankly, 91 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 2: but what you do have agency over is what you 92 00:05:02,080 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 2: choose to do about it next. And that's kind of 93 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:08,680 Speaker 2: been my philosophy through everything from homelessness to challenges of 94 00:05:08,720 --> 00:05:13,320 Speaker 2: working in the fire department, to the challenges of doing 95 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,159 Speaker 2: trying to do a PhD while you're still working and 96 00:05:17,200 --> 00:05:20,600 Speaker 2: then combining research. You know, it takes a lot of 97 00:05:21,120 --> 00:05:25,120 Speaker 2: time and effort and energy, and it's not easy. It's 98 00:05:25,240 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: really not easy, But it's just that everyday reminder to 99 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:28,880 Speaker 2: keep going. 100 00:05:29,320 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: Do you think that, like when I listen to you 101 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: talk about all the stuff that you've done and continue 102 00:05:34,000 --> 00:05:37,680 Speaker 1: to do, and do you think that the drive that 103 00:05:37,720 --> 00:05:41,520 Speaker 1: you have is just innate? Is that just is that 104 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:46,160 Speaker 1: in your DNA or is that that's option one? Option two? 105 00:05:46,440 --> 00:05:48,480 Speaker 1: Is it a byproduct of where you've been and what 106 00:05:48,520 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: you've seen and what you've been through the stuff that 107 00:05:50,560 --> 00:05:53,359 Speaker 1: you've endured and navigated, Or option three is it a 108 00:05:53,360 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: bit of everything? 109 00:05:55,279 --> 00:06:00,400 Speaker 2: Option C? I think certainly. I think that everybody as 110 00:06:00,520 --> 00:06:04,000 Speaker 2: a predisposition towards certain qualities. But whether or not that 111 00:06:04,160 --> 00:06:07,520 Speaker 2: ever gets extrapolated into the real world is completely dependent 112 00:06:07,560 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 2: on the things that you're exposed to and the way 113 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,120 Speaker 2: that you respond to those things as well. So I'll 114 00:06:12,160 --> 00:06:14,800 Speaker 2: give you I'll share with you a story, which is 115 00:06:14,800 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 2: why I think some of it is there is an 116 00:06:18,080 --> 00:06:23,720 Speaker 2: element to it. My grandparents, my grandmother in particular. Oh, 117 00:06:23,760 --> 00:06:27,279 Speaker 2: I think they're awesome people. My grandparents were Moroccan Jews, 118 00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 2: and they were attacked during a pogrom in Gerda in 119 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:32,880 Speaker 2: Morocco where they lived in nineteen forty eight, and my 120 00:06:32,960 --> 00:06:37,360 Speaker 2: grandmother survived a machete attack. She was attacked and left 121 00:06:37,360 --> 00:06:40,000 Speaker 2: for dead, and when my grandfather went to collect her body, 122 00:06:40,400 --> 00:06:41,960 Speaker 2: he had to pull her out from a pile of 123 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:44,680 Speaker 2: other corpses, unfortunately, and she gasped for air. She was 124 00:06:44,720 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 2: still alive, and so they fled Morocco as refugees and 125 00:06:48,240 --> 00:06:52,640 Speaker 2: they started again. Now, despite this experience, my father was 126 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 2: terminally ill and so my grandmother lived with us for 127 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 2: a while to care for him. And despite those experiences, 128 00:06:58,160 --> 00:07:00,599 Speaker 2: what I see from her every day this kind of 129 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 2: tenacity to keep up and keep on going, and this 130 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:07,800 Speaker 2: kind of really realistic optimism that everything will be okay. 131 00:07:07,880 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 2: It'll be tough, but it will be okay, and such 132 00:07:10,160 --> 00:07:13,600 Speaker 2: compassion and empathy and love that still comes from her 133 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 2: that I look at her and I think, you know what, 134 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:17,840 Speaker 2: the world could throw anything at you, and I know 135 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:20,840 Speaker 2: that you'd turn it into something good. So I think 136 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,679 Speaker 2: there is that kind of that element that comes through 137 00:07:23,840 --> 00:07:30,720 Speaker 2: not just from your from genetically potentially, but also I 138 00:07:30,760 --> 00:07:33,560 Speaker 2: think from those experiences that you have. There's things that 139 00:07:33,600 --> 00:07:36,520 Speaker 2: you learn from other people around you which then inform 140 00:07:36,680 --> 00:07:40,120 Speaker 2: the way that you respond to the environment around you too. 141 00:07:41,200 --> 00:07:43,280 Speaker 2: I lost my father when I was super young. I 142 00:07:43,320 --> 00:07:45,640 Speaker 2: was nine years old, and the thing that that taught 143 00:07:45,640 --> 00:07:51,440 Speaker 2: me is that security isn't guaranteed. Are not safe. It's 144 00:07:51,680 --> 00:07:54,840 Speaker 2: that fire under your feet that tells you that you 145 00:07:54,880 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 2: know things can happen in life that you don't expect, 146 00:07:57,360 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 2: that are really difficult, that it's not always going to 147 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:02,280 Speaker 2: be as you might imagine or you might plan, and 148 00:08:02,320 --> 00:08:04,440 Speaker 2: you have to be able to be reactive to that 149 00:08:04,560 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 2: and responsive to that. And boy did that ever happen 150 00:08:08,720 --> 00:08:12,000 Speaker 2: when when I was younger. That was a super, super 151 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 2: tough time. But that realization that the future isn't guaranteed, 152 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:19,720 Speaker 2: that for me is one of the biggest drivers for 153 00:08:19,840 --> 00:08:22,920 Speaker 2: making it what you want. And it's tiring, you know, 154 00:08:23,000 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 2: it can get exhausting when you choose to do tough things. 155 00:08:27,080 --> 00:08:29,400 Speaker 2: But you know what, that's the only way we shift 156 00:08:29,440 --> 00:08:31,960 Speaker 2: the dial is by being brave enough to do those 157 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,559 Speaker 2: tough things and being okay with knowing you might fail 158 00:08:34,600 --> 00:08:36,520 Speaker 2: at it, but that's okay because you can get up 159 00:08:36,559 --> 00:08:38,000 Speaker 2: and do it again. You know. 160 00:08:38,480 --> 00:08:42,199 Speaker 1: That's a big I think that's I love that amazing story. 161 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:44,080 Speaker 1: As your grandma is still alive. 162 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:46,960 Speaker 2: She is, she's going to be one hundred in February. 163 00:08:47,120 --> 00:08:52,240 Speaker 1: Oh God bless her, God bless her she is. That's amazing. 164 00:08:53,440 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: But it's that, you know, it's that willingness to do 165 00:08:57,400 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: all the hard things. You know, like from you, we'll 166 00:08:59,920 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: go a bit more of your background, but from living 167 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: on the street when you're fifteen too. Here you are doing, 168 00:09:05,960 --> 00:09:09,640 Speaker 1: you know, talking to us whatever it is twenty two three, 169 00:09:09,720 --> 00:09:12,959 Speaker 1: four years later on an international podcast. Not that we're 170 00:09:12,960 --> 00:09:14,400 Speaker 1: a big deal, but I mean talking to people on 171 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:16,960 Speaker 1: the other side of the world about your story and 172 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,839 Speaker 1: about your journey and about your grandma and about your 173 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:24,400 Speaker 1: history and about that like it. But you are where 174 00:09:24,440 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: you are as the author, as the academic, as the researcher, 175 00:09:28,240 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 1: as the doctor, as the spokesperson, as this you know, 176 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:37,800 Speaker 1: superachiever within the fire brigade, you know, just because not 177 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,680 Speaker 1: because anyone handed it to you or said here's the key, 178 00:09:40,800 --> 00:09:43,640 Speaker 1: or not because the opportunity knocked at your door, but 179 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,360 Speaker 1: because you just, for whatever reason were resilient and ambitious 180 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:52,080 Speaker 1: and driven and had a big worth work ethic and 181 00:09:52,240 --> 00:09:55,319 Speaker 1: fell down and got up a thousand times. Is that 182 00:09:56,600 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 1: Can we develop that as well? 183 00:09:59,640 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 2: Ye? You can. I really truly believe this. I truly 184 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,280 Speaker 2: believe that you can develop it. Resilience isn't something that 185 00:10:06,320 --> 00:10:09,640 Speaker 2: you know you're innately born with and you have your 186 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:12,640 Speaker 2: cup full, and depending how full your cup is will 187 00:10:12,679 --> 00:10:15,040 Speaker 2: depend on how resilient you're ever going to be. I 188 00:10:15,040 --> 00:10:19,040 Speaker 2: think that you can learn resilience by repeatedly failing and 189 00:10:19,120 --> 00:10:22,600 Speaker 2: repeatedly getting up again, and repeatedly going back and trying 190 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:24,839 Speaker 2: to fix the thing that didn't work in the first place. 191 00:10:25,240 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 2: Because when that happens, when you fail at something, you 192 00:10:28,360 --> 00:10:31,880 Speaker 2: also learn to grow, You learn how to get back 193 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:35,080 Speaker 2: up again because you have to do it. And so 194 00:10:35,200 --> 00:10:37,680 Speaker 2: I do think that the more times you put yourself 195 00:10:37,679 --> 00:10:41,480 Speaker 2: in an uncomfortable situation by failing, by making a mistake, 196 00:10:41,520 --> 00:10:43,160 Speaker 2: by doing something that's tough that you don't have the 197 00:10:43,200 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 2: confidence that you're ever going to finish. You know, by 198 00:10:45,559 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 2: doing those things, you experience that discomfort, but you put 199 00:10:50,160 --> 00:10:52,400 Speaker 2: through it anyway. And then when you realize that all 200 00:10:52,440 --> 00:10:54,559 Speaker 2: of these things that you can do, all of these 201 00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: skills that you have, you can do them when you 202 00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 2: feel uncomfortable, it means that you're better prepared for them time. 203 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,640 Speaker 2: But there is something really powerful for me about failure. 204 00:11:04,320 --> 00:11:08,160 Speaker 2: I really believe this, because if you don't fail at something, 205 00:11:08,200 --> 00:11:11,800 Speaker 2: then I don't think that you're trying something that's difficult enough, frankly, 206 00:11:12,840 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 2: and so for me, there is something really powerful about 207 00:11:16,800 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 2: how you respond to failure, not just for yourself, but 208 00:11:20,840 --> 00:11:23,160 Speaker 2: for other people around you as well. I mean, I'm 209 00:11:23,200 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 2: in the fire service, I work in a team environment. 210 00:11:26,480 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: And it's really important to me that you can create 211 00:11:29,160 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 2: this environment where you know that if somebody fails at something, 212 00:11:33,360 --> 00:11:35,920 Speaker 2: or if you fail at something, people won't respond with 213 00:11:36,080 --> 00:11:39,280 Speaker 2: blame or with judgment, but people will respond in the 214 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,320 Speaker 2: way to say, hey, that's okay, the world will fall down, 215 00:11:42,440 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 2: Let's see how we can pick this up again and 216 00:11:44,040 --> 00:11:46,720 Speaker 2: put it together. Because when you do that, you create 217 00:11:46,760 --> 00:11:50,360 Speaker 2: a sense of psychological safety around you. When you have 218 00:11:50,400 --> 00:11:53,160 Speaker 2: psychological safety, people are going to be more likely to 219 00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:55,440 Speaker 2: take a risk, they're going to do something differently, and 220 00:11:55,480 --> 00:11:57,800 Speaker 2: that means they're going to innovate. So I think that's 221 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 2: a powerful and I feel really strongly that we should 222 00:12:00,520 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 2: own our failures with as much conviction as we own 223 00:12:03,200 --> 00:12:06,439 Speaker 2: every success, because frankly, I will learn more about someone 224 00:12:06,760 --> 00:12:09,439 Speaker 2: from seeing the way they respond to one failure than 225 00:12:09,440 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 2: I'd ever get from a thousand successes. And I think 226 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:15,520 Speaker 2: this is part of the problem today, especially with you know, 227 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:18,320 Speaker 2: so much social media, we see a really kind of 228 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:21,600 Speaker 2: curated version of everybody's life. And I got to look 229 00:12:21,640 --> 00:12:24,120 Speaker 2: at leaders in the fire service, and they would be 230 00:12:24,280 --> 00:12:31,800 Speaker 2: these great, big, physically imposing, strapping guys predominantly predominantly that 231 00:12:32,200 --> 00:12:35,040 Speaker 2: never seemed to do anything wrong. There always knew the 232 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:37,920 Speaker 2: answer to everything, that was so full of confidence, even 233 00:12:37,920 --> 00:12:39,920 Speaker 2: if the answer is wrong, they would say it was 234 00:12:39,960 --> 00:12:43,040 Speaker 2: such confidence that everyone would kind of and believe it right. 235 00:12:43,480 --> 00:12:45,560 Speaker 2: And so I see these people and I'd never see 236 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:48,560 Speaker 2: them falter. And I used to think, actually, you know, 237 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:50,800 Speaker 2: there are things that make me feel vulnerable. I know 238 00:12:50,840 --> 00:12:53,280 Speaker 2: that I've made mistakes, I know that I've messed things up, 239 00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,199 Speaker 2: So you know, how can I possibly compare to those? 240 00:12:56,520 --> 00:12:59,440 Speaker 2: But that's not real. That version isn't real because what 241 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 2: you might see is the cherry on top of the cake. 242 00:13:02,000 --> 00:13:04,000 Speaker 2: You haven't seen everything else that goes into it. You 243 00:13:04,040 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 2: haven't seen all the failures. You haven't seen all the 244 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 2: all the repeated, the repeated attempts before they got to 245 00:13:11,080 --> 00:13:13,440 Speaker 2: that bit. And until we get more comfortable with showing 246 00:13:13,440 --> 00:13:15,680 Speaker 2: that side of us, it's going to be really tricky, 247 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:18,320 Speaker 2: I think, to kind of show other people that actually 248 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,360 Speaker 2: there is a route through, and it's not clean and 249 00:13:20,440 --> 00:13:23,439 Speaker 2: it's not easy. But if you're if you're not afraid 250 00:13:23,480 --> 00:13:26,319 Speaker 2: to roll up your sleeves, then every problem can present 251 00:13:26,360 --> 00:13:28,520 Speaker 2: as an opportunity. If you're not afraid to roll up 252 00:13:28,559 --> 00:13:30,240 Speaker 2: with Steves and get your fingernails a bit dirty. 253 00:13:30,480 --> 00:13:34,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, totally agree, totally love it. I think I 254 00:13:34,080 --> 00:13:37,280 Speaker 1: think the irony is doctor Sabrina. I'm going to keep 255 00:13:37,320 --> 00:13:39,800 Speaker 1: calling you that because you earned it. I think that 256 00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:43,640 Speaker 1: the irony is that we we try, you know, we have. 257 00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:47,520 Speaker 1: So there's the person and then quite often the persona right, 258 00:13:48,280 --> 00:13:51,200 Speaker 1: and what you see with the big, strong, strapping whoever 259 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:55,240 Speaker 1: who never has got no fear and never deviates and 260 00:13:55,240 --> 00:13:58,120 Speaker 1: gets everything right and always looks you know, that's a 261 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: persona like, that's a fucking act, right. Nobody's that all 262 00:14:01,480 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 1: the time, And of course everybody gets things wrong, and 263 00:14:05,240 --> 00:14:09,840 Speaker 1: of course everybody at some stage in some situation is insecure, 264 00:14:10,000 --> 00:14:14,680 Speaker 1: including me. Everybody's got ego, including me. But I think 265 00:14:14,720 --> 00:14:16,960 Speaker 1: the thing is when you own up to your bullshit 266 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:21,240 Speaker 1: a little bit or a lot, people connect with you more. 267 00:14:21,880 --> 00:14:26,520 Speaker 1: When you're like a cartoon character of perfection, people can't 268 00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:29,880 Speaker 1: identify and people go, well, clearly, I could never do that, 269 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:34,080 Speaker 1: be that, achieve that because that person he or she 270 00:14:34,480 --> 00:14:39,400 Speaker 1: is a fucking superhero who's flawless and faultless. 271 00:14:39,200 --> 00:14:39,440 Speaker 2: You know. 272 00:14:39,520 --> 00:14:42,360 Speaker 1: But when you can see some of yourself in someone 273 00:14:42,400 --> 00:14:45,240 Speaker 1: who is doing great things, then all of a sudden, 274 00:14:45,360 --> 00:14:48,680 Speaker 1: you go, or maybe I can do great things because 275 00:14:48,720 --> 00:14:52,920 Speaker 1: we ain't that different. Because she's got flaws, he's got flaws. 276 00:14:52,960 --> 00:14:56,320 Speaker 1: I've got flaws, you know, like you like you're living 277 00:14:56,320 --> 00:15:00,480 Speaker 1: on the street for two years. I mean, that's definitely 278 00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,160 Speaker 1: not a privileged upbringing. Well, that's definitely not a great 279 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 1: starting point. But look at what you've done and where 280 00:15:06,800 --> 00:15:09,280 Speaker 1: you've been and what you've seen, you know, and it's 281 00:15:09,320 --> 00:15:14,360 Speaker 1: that that, you know, I really connect with you when 282 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:17,080 Speaker 1: you're talking about like falling down and getting up the 283 00:15:17,120 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: failure stuff, because it's it's when we do the hard stuff, 284 00:15:21,320 --> 00:15:25,800 Speaker 1: the uncomfortable, uncertain, unfamiliar, you know, all the stuff that 285 00:15:25,840 --> 00:15:29,240 Speaker 1: we tend to avoid because we're kind of hardwired for 286 00:15:29,360 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: pleasure and for instant gratification. Or it's kind of what 287 00:15:33,200 --> 00:15:37,280 Speaker 1: controls a lot of us is that we love that familiar, easy, comfortable, quick, 288 00:15:37,360 --> 00:15:40,640 Speaker 1: painless path. But when we do lean into the mess, 289 00:15:40,680 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: when we do lean into the pain, when we do 290 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:46,920 Speaker 1: lean into the darkness, sometimes that's where we change. That's 291 00:15:46,960 --> 00:15:51,960 Speaker 1: where we build strength, resilient, insight, understanding, awareness, competence, you know. 292 00:15:52,080 --> 00:15:58,320 Speaker 1: And then and then as you talk about performing under pressure, well, 293 00:15:58,360 --> 00:16:01,920 Speaker 1: if the pressure around ten people is a constant, But 294 00:16:02,000 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: in the middle of that, you're the most resilient, the 295 00:16:04,080 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 1: most experienced, the most capable, the most willing to do 296 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: the hard work. You'll have the best experience in that, 297 00:16:10,760 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 1: or you'll have at least the most control and the 298 00:16:13,280 --> 00:16:15,680 Speaker 1: most calm. 299 00:16:15,760 --> 00:16:20,200 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's absolutely right, that's absolutely right. And it's difficult, 300 00:16:20,240 --> 00:16:23,320 Speaker 2: you know, because life is uncertain and people don't like uncertainty. 301 00:16:23,360 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 2: None of us do. Were hard whined for things to 302 00:16:26,120 --> 00:16:29,680 Speaker 2: be really simple and clear, so you know, doing it 303 00:16:29,720 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: in those kind of environments is tough. But if you're not, 304 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: if you can find the courage to step forward into that, 305 00:16:37,440 --> 00:16:39,520 Speaker 2: then I think people would be really surprised at what 306 00:16:39,560 --> 00:16:41,920 Speaker 2: they're capable of doing and what they're capable of achieving, 307 00:16:43,120 --> 00:16:45,480 Speaker 2: you know. So it's about starting to feel comfortable with 308 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,240 Speaker 2: that discomfort. For me, I think is one of the 309 00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:51,800 Speaker 2: most powerful things as human beings we can do. But look, 310 00:16:51,800 --> 00:16:55,720 Speaker 2: it's tough, you know, And that point about persona and 311 00:16:55,840 --> 00:16:59,200 Speaker 2: the reality of who you are is a really important 312 00:16:59,200 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 2: one because you know, as much as we are we 313 00:17:02,160 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 2: want to say we don't care about what people's opinions 314 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 2: of us are. The fact is we're human beings and 315 00:17:07,560 --> 00:17:11,800 Speaker 2: we're hardwired to absorb people's reactions to us as social information. 316 00:17:11,920 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 2: It tells us a lot. So if I think back 317 00:17:14,359 --> 00:17:17,080 Speaker 2: to the time when I was experiencing homelessness, it was 318 00:17:17,200 --> 00:17:20,640 Speaker 2: super tough, and people would decide my value. They would 319 00:17:20,640 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 2: decide I was worthless within seconds at nothing more than 320 00:17:24,040 --> 00:17:27,200 Speaker 2: a glance, you know, and to have people judging you 321 00:17:27,600 --> 00:17:30,040 Speaker 2: and worse, you know, people were really cruel with the 322 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 2: things that they would say. And I've been kicked and 323 00:17:32,119 --> 00:17:34,600 Speaker 2: punched and spat out more times than I care to remember. 324 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 2: But when you go through that and you experience that, 325 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 2: I could rationalize, and I could look at that person 326 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,119 Speaker 2: and think, there are seven billion people in the world, 327 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 2: why should I care about your opinion? You know, you 328 00:17:45,640 --> 00:17:50,399 Speaker 2: don't matter to me, so rationally your response is irrelevant. 329 00:17:50,720 --> 00:17:53,399 Speaker 2: But then why do I feel so bad? And the 330 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:56,280 Speaker 2: reality is you're absorbing that and it informs the way 331 00:17:56,320 --> 00:17:59,520 Speaker 2: that you expect the next person to respond to you. 332 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:02,640 Speaker 2: Well so, and then it becomes part of your inner 333 00:18:02,720 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: narrative and the way that you speak to yourself, and 334 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:08,159 Speaker 2: eventually you start to absorb that. So, you know, the 335 00:18:08,160 --> 00:18:10,880 Speaker 2: way that people respond to us does have an impact 336 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:13,120 Speaker 2: on us and how we feel about ourselves and how 337 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:16,119 Speaker 2: we perceive the world and how we subsequently respond to that, 338 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 2: and that can be super tough. So there is something 339 00:18:18,640 --> 00:18:23,760 Speaker 2: from me that I've learned throughout this experience about how 340 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,640 Speaker 2: I can't control how people respond to me. I can't 341 00:18:27,000 --> 00:18:30,080 Speaker 2: I can respond how I control to other people. And 342 00:18:30,200 --> 00:18:33,480 Speaker 2: being really aware about the impact that you can have 343 00:18:33,560 --> 00:18:38,919 Speaker 2: on somebody else, I think is really really powerful and 344 00:18:39,000 --> 00:18:41,320 Speaker 2: it's something that I try to do every day with 345 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:44,280 Speaker 2: whoever I'm with. And some of the people who showed 346 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,720 Speaker 2: me the most compassion when I was experiencing homelessness were 347 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,320 Speaker 2: other people who were also experiencing homelessness, and these are 348 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 2: the people that others were crossing the road to try 349 00:18:52,560 --> 00:18:57,520 Speaker 2: to avoid. But for me, everybody has value. Everybody has potential. 350 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:02,680 Speaker 2: Sometimes circumstances mean it's really difficult to find the opportunities 351 00:19:02,720 --> 00:19:05,880 Speaker 2: that you need to achieve that potential, but it's there. 352 00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:10,160 Speaker 2: Everybody has value, And do you want to help someone 353 00:19:10,560 --> 00:19:13,880 Speaker 2: find that value just in the way that you're conducting 354 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:15,920 Speaker 2: yourself day to day, in the way someone might respond 355 00:19:15,960 --> 00:19:17,680 Speaker 2: to you, or do you want to hinder it because 356 00:19:17,720 --> 00:19:19,560 Speaker 2: it's easy and you can just let out whatever you're 357 00:19:19,600 --> 00:19:23,000 Speaker 2: feeling or thinking instantly without putting that filter, that filter 358 00:19:23,080 --> 00:19:25,600 Speaker 2: in place first, Hey, is me responding in a really 359 00:19:25,680 --> 00:19:27,919 Speaker 2: judgmental way going to help this person? Or is it 360 00:19:27,960 --> 00:19:30,119 Speaker 2: going to make them even worse? You know? And the 361 00:19:30,280 --> 00:19:33,480 Speaker 2: likelihood is actually, if you're responding to someone who's already 362 00:19:33,480 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 2: in a really low place by telling them they're worthless, 363 00:19:36,840 --> 00:19:39,280 Speaker 2: you're not going to motivate them to do anything differently. 364 00:19:39,400 --> 00:19:41,800 Speaker 2: So you know, there is something for me about how 365 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,760 Speaker 2: we contribute to that great, big, universal soup that we 366 00:19:46,800 --> 00:19:48,359 Speaker 2: all live in. And are you going to do something 367 00:19:48,400 --> 00:19:50,200 Speaker 2: positive with that or are you going to make it 368 00:19:50,240 --> 00:19:52,320 Speaker 2: a bit worse for someone that day? Yep? 369 00:19:52,880 --> 00:19:56,480 Speaker 1: So on the money, tell us about tell us if what, 370 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: as much or as little as you want. Tell us 371 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: about being homeless for two living on the street, things 372 00:20:01,440 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 1: sped on, kicked, punched, abused, all of that. How did 373 00:20:04,840 --> 00:20:05,680 Speaker 1: you end up there? 374 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:11,880 Speaker 2: Oh? It was so horrible. Honestly. My father was terminally 375 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,960 Speaker 2: ill for some time and he died when I was nine, 376 00:20:15,760 --> 00:20:18,919 Speaker 2: And after that my mom found it really difficult to cope. 377 00:20:20,200 --> 00:20:22,479 Speaker 2: And so I have a backstory that's by no means 378 00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:27,199 Speaker 2: unique to me. We lived in abject poverty. There were 379 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:31,720 Speaker 2: huge family rifts there and my mum struggled with her 380 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:35,640 Speaker 2: mental health. She broke down, her business failed. And one 381 00:20:35,640 --> 00:20:38,080 Speaker 2: thing I've always said is that if somebody goes to 382 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 2: war with their demons, it's everyone around them that gets 383 00:20:40,840 --> 00:20:43,240 Speaker 2: hit by the shrapnel. And that was totally the case 384 00:20:43,440 --> 00:20:46,320 Speaker 2: in our family. And by the time I was fifteen, 385 00:20:46,520 --> 00:20:49,960 Speaker 2: nearly sixteen, it was too much, it was too difficult. 386 00:20:50,040 --> 00:20:53,800 Speaker 2: I couldn't cope and I left and that's when I 387 00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,360 Speaker 2: started to sleep rough on the streets of Newport, which 388 00:20:57,400 --> 00:21:00,199 Speaker 2: is a town in South Wales in the year UK. 389 00:21:01,080 --> 00:21:05,160 Speaker 2: And if I can describe Newport to you, it's it's 390 00:21:05,200 --> 00:21:06,959 Speaker 2: a it's a town with it was a town then 391 00:21:07,000 --> 00:21:09,160 Speaker 2: it's a city now. But it's a place that has 392 00:21:09,200 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 2: its challenges. It is Deprivation is high, drug use is high, 393 00:21:16,040 --> 00:21:19,919 Speaker 2: crime is high. It's not a lovely place to be 394 00:21:20,480 --> 00:21:22,920 Speaker 2: and I can say that with love because I'm from there, 395 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:26,280 Speaker 2: but it's not. It's not a great place. As a 396 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,199 Speaker 2: sleeping rough there, of all places, was even harder. I 397 00:21:30,240 --> 00:21:36,240 Speaker 2: think we had a social worker. But when you're when 398 00:21:36,240 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 2: you're raised by someone who loves you very much but 399 00:21:38,640 --> 00:21:41,960 Speaker 2: doesn't have either the mental or the physical resources to 400 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:45,080 Speaker 2: care for you. Then you see any kind of authority 401 00:21:45,080 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: figure through a lens of mistrust. And so I was 402 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:52,760 Speaker 2: terrified of going into care, absolutely terrified. So I started 403 00:21:52,800 --> 00:21:57,720 Speaker 2: to sleep rough and i'd sleep in shop doorways. I 404 00:21:57,800 --> 00:22:00,199 Speaker 2: slept in the porch of a derelict church and till 405 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 2: we got moved on, And then i'd sleep in a 406 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,520 Speaker 2: derelict building sometimes when when I felt safe enough there too, 407 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 2: because lots of other people also slept there. People used 408 00:22:11,520 --> 00:22:14,359 Speaker 2: it for drugs and things. So I would go to 409 00:22:14,400 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 2: sleep and i'd have to by literally by the light 410 00:22:18,520 --> 00:22:21,280 Speaker 2: of a lighter. I'd be looking around to make sure 411 00:22:21,320 --> 00:22:23,560 Speaker 2: that there weren't any dirty needles on the floor before 412 00:22:23,600 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: i'd bed down for the night. So I didn't always 413 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 2: feel safe there. Even though it gave some shelter, it 414 00:22:29,119 --> 00:22:33,680 Speaker 2: wasn't the safest place to be. But I still went 415 00:22:33,720 --> 00:22:36,040 Speaker 2: to school every day because I didn't want people to 416 00:22:36,080 --> 00:22:37,680 Speaker 2: know what I was going through, because I didn't want 417 00:22:37,680 --> 00:22:40,760 Speaker 2: to end up in hare And that was really hard. 418 00:22:40,800 --> 00:22:42,919 Speaker 2: And I'll give you I'll give you an example of 419 00:22:42,960 --> 00:22:47,639 Speaker 2: how tough this was. One day I decided I wanted 420 00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:49,840 Speaker 2: to go to sleep somewhere light. And that sounds a 421 00:22:49,920 --> 00:22:52,040 Speaker 2: bit daft when I say it out loud now as 422 00:22:52,040 --> 00:22:54,480 Speaker 2: a grown woman, but it was just fed up of 423 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,679 Speaker 2: not even having the control to turn a light on 424 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,720 Speaker 2: or off. So I went to sleep in a subway 425 00:23:02,040 --> 00:23:04,480 Speaker 2: because it had the strip lighting there, and I put 426 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:08,400 Speaker 2: my cardboard down, because when you go to sleep on concrete, 427 00:23:08,800 --> 00:23:11,280 Speaker 2: it's so cold, it doesn't matter how warm it might 428 00:23:11,320 --> 00:23:16,120 Speaker 2: be outside. It's so cold it like literally leeches the 429 00:23:16,160 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 2: heat from your bones. It's awful. So I'd always sleep 430 00:23:18,640 --> 00:23:21,240 Speaker 2: on cardboard. I had a sleeping bag and I bed 431 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:23,760 Speaker 2: it down for the night, and I had a stray dog, 432 00:23:24,200 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 2: straight dog. I was a stray girl. It seemed to work. 433 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 2: And he used to sleep in the bottom of my 434 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 2: sleeping bag. And we'll touch on dogs a bit later, 435 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:34,760 Speaker 2: but he would sleep in the bottom of my sleeping bag. 436 00:23:35,520 --> 00:23:38,440 Speaker 2: And the one this day, I woke up, it must 437 00:23:38,480 --> 00:23:40,359 Speaker 2: have been early hours of the morning. I couldn't tell 438 00:23:40,400 --> 00:23:43,239 Speaker 2: you exactly, but I woke up to the sound of 439 00:23:43,320 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 2: some drunk guy laughing, and I kind of I poked 440 00:23:47,920 --> 00:23:49,640 Speaker 2: my head up on my sleeping bag with felt warm 441 00:23:49,680 --> 00:23:51,919 Speaker 2: and wet, and I just thought my initial reaction was 442 00:23:51,960 --> 00:23:54,080 Speaker 2: Oh my god, my dog's gone to the toilet my 443 00:23:54,080 --> 00:23:56,280 Speaker 2: sleeping bag. But as I poked my head out, I 444 00:23:56,280 --> 00:23:59,720 Speaker 2: could see this guy leaning back on his heels with 445 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:03,760 Speaker 2: his kind of belt undone, just laughing. He was urinating 446 00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:06,600 Speaker 2: on my sleeping bag. He thought it would be hilarious 447 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:08,240 Speaker 2: on his way back from the club or the pub 448 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,080 Speaker 2: or whatever to do that to the first homeless person 449 00:24:11,119 --> 00:24:14,439 Speaker 2: he saw, which happened to be me, And it was 450 00:24:14,480 --> 00:24:20,880 Speaker 2: the most dehumanizing and humiliating experience. But look, I don't 451 00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:23,919 Speaker 2: think that he thought this through because, as it transpires, 452 00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,120 Speaker 2: dogs don't particularly like being urinated on in the middle 453 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,040 Speaker 2: of the night either, And that's not the kind of 454 00:24:29,119 --> 00:24:31,520 Speaker 2: thing you want to wave around it. And I don't 455 00:24:31,560 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: think you'll be doing it again anytime soon. But you know, 456 00:24:36,040 --> 00:24:37,800 Speaker 2: but the hang on, hang. 457 00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,679 Speaker 1: On, are you telling me the dog beat him on 458 00:24:39,720 --> 00:24:40,080 Speaker 1: the dick? 459 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:42,919 Speaker 2: Well, I'm telling you I don't think he'll do it 460 00:24:42,920 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 2: again soon, because I didn't think that he wanted the 461 00:24:44,800 --> 00:24:46,520 Speaker 2: response that he got from the angry dog. 462 00:24:46,720 --> 00:24:49,760 Speaker 1: So I hope, I hope you dog beat him on 463 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:52,200 Speaker 1: the dick. That's the best, Well, that's the best out 464 00:24:52,200 --> 00:24:55,480 Speaker 1: of a bad story ever. He was and there's the 465 00:24:55,520 --> 00:25:00,600 Speaker 1: title for the show. You're welcome. Thanks everyone. That was Sabrina, 466 00:25:01,080 --> 00:25:04,440 Speaker 1: the bloke who got his dick bit. Sorry, keep going 467 00:25:04,520 --> 00:25:05,040 Speaker 1: to the pirna. 468 00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:09,720 Speaker 2: No, no, it's fine, it's fine, but look the practicality 469 00:25:09,760 --> 00:25:12,320 Speaker 2: of that. I had nowhere to go, no clean bedding, 470 00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:15,760 Speaker 2: I had no clean clothes. So I went and I 471 00:25:15,800 --> 00:25:17,119 Speaker 2: just sat on a bench in the middle of the 472 00:25:17,200 --> 00:25:20,520 Speaker 2: town center, and I pulled my knees up to my 473 00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:22,880 Speaker 2: chest and I just sat there, stopping. I was sixteen 474 00:25:22,920 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 2: at this time. I sat there sobbing until the sun 475 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:29,000 Speaker 2: came up the next morning, and then the bus station 476 00:25:29,080 --> 00:25:31,320 Speaker 2: toilets would open up at about six o'clock in the morning. 477 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:33,479 Speaker 2: So I went down. I went to the sink. I 478 00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,120 Speaker 2: cleaned myself as best as I could. I went into 479 00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: the toilet cubicle. I locked the door behind me. I 480 00:25:38,800 --> 00:25:41,200 Speaker 2: put my bag on the toilet seat, and I pulled 481 00:25:41,200 --> 00:25:43,680 Speaker 2: out a scrumpled up school uniform, and I took off 482 00:25:43,760 --> 00:25:47,800 Speaker 2: my urine smelling clothes. I put my uniform and then 483 00:25:47,840 --> 00:25:49,399 Speaker 2: I waited for the bus and I went to school. 484 00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:53,320 Speaker 2: No one would have known why I was responding the 485 00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,240 Speaker 2: way I was that day, or behaving the way that 486 00:25:55,280 --> 00:25:57,760 Speaker 2: I was that day or had no interest in learning 487 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,960 Speaker 2: or anything. No one would have what I went through, 488 00:26:01,880 --> 00:26:04,400 Speaker 2: but I did, and it was awful. And again it's 489 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:06,640 Speaker 2: another early lesson in empathy for me, because we meet 490 00:26:06,640 --> 00:26:09,160 Speaker 2: people every day right that we think, I really don't 491 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,159 Speaker 2: understand your perspective or no idea why you're responding like that, 492 00:26:13,200 --> 00:26:15,760 Speaker 2: you'll bang out of line, But actually we never know 493 00:26:15,800 --> 00:26:17,560 Speaker 2: what they've been through that day before we've had that 494 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: interaction either. So it was a really timely reminder. But 495 00:26:21,200 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 2: I had some really difficult times. And I just want 496 00:26:26,440 --> 00:26:28,600 Speaker 2: to touch on that point about a dog, because I 497 00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:32,760 Speaker 2: know lots of people have opinions on people experiencing homelessness 498 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:36,359 Speaker 2: who have dogs. And I say that very deliberately because 499 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 2: homelessness is an experience. You're not a homeless person. That 500 00:26:39,760 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 2: shouldn't be part of your identity. But lots of people 501 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:47,160 Speaker 2: would pass judgment at me because I had a dog. 502 00:26:47,240 --> 00:26:51,040 Speaker 2: He was my companion, and it was really horrible some 503 00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:52,679 Speaker 2: of the stuff that people would say, you know, you 504 00:26:52,720 --> 00:26:54,760 Speaker 2: can't even look after yourself. Who the hell do you 505 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:56,639 Speaker 2: think you are having a dog? You're cruel, You're this, 506 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: you're that. But actually no one ends up experiencing homelessness 507 00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 2: unless they are completely socially isolated. So that dog, he 508 00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:11,720 Speaker 2: was the only source of social comfort and emotional comfort 509 00:27:11,800 --> 00:27:16,879 Speaker 2: and stability that I had for me. That relationship was 510 00:27:17,000 --> 00:27:20,720 Speaker 2: so meaningful. He was where my world started and where 511 00:27:20,720 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: it ended in a place where everything else was super chaotic. 512 00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:29,000 Speaker 2: He was the one stability, piece of stability that I had, 513 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,600 Speaker 2: and he got cared for better than me, by the way. 514 00:27:32,400 --> 00:27:34,440 Speaker 2: But dogs are a super important part of my life. 515 00:27:34,520 --> 00:27:38,439 Speaker 2: Now I've got three. I'll always keep dogs, and I 516 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 2: just love that point of connection that they can give 517 00:27:43,760 --> 00:27:47,120 Speaker 2: and that companionship that they can offer when you can 518 00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 2: otherwise be completely isolated and lonely from everything else. They're amazing, amazing. 519 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:56,840 Speaker 1: We love dogs at the EU Project, we do, we do. 520 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:03,520 Speaker 1: We're both dog people. Melissa's crazy dogs and there we do. 521 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,679 Speaker 1: We love dogs, so we completely understand. But also the 522 00:28:06,720 --> 00:28:11,320 Speaker 1: thing is dogs love you, you know, unconditionally. There's no hooks, 523 00:28:11,359 --> 00:28:14,399 Speaker 1: catchers and genders and who people think, Tony because you 524 00:28:14,400 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: give them food. Have never had a dog. It's so 525 00:28:17,440 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 1: not just about that, unless it's a Labrador, then it's 526 00:28:22,119 --> 00:28:27,200 Speaker 1: all about food. I'm many kidding. 527 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 2: Don't send just about to start some canine research as well. 528 00:28:31,920 --> 00:28:33,840 Speaker 2: So I've got all the kind of human decision making 529 00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:35,240 Speaker 2: stuff going on, but I've got a bit of a 530 00:28:35,240 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 2: passion project looking at dogs and in particular extreme behavioral 531 00:28:39,400 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: problems and what we can do to try to extinguish 532 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:45,280 Speaker 2: those behaviors rather than these dogs being put to sleep. 533 00:28:46,080 --> 00:28:48,200 Speaker 2: But as a result, I've been looking at loads of 534 00:28:48,240 --> 00:28:52,160 Speaker 2: the neuroscience around dogs, and they actually get something very 535 00:28:52,200 --> 00:28:55,800 Speaker 2: specific about their interaction with a human in comparison to 536 00:28:55,880 --> 00:29:00,239 Speaker 2: their interaction with another dog. And so the amazing thing 537 00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,280 Speaker 2: about dogs is they've survived for thousands of years predominantly 538 00:29:04,320 --> 00:29:08,280 Speaker 2: by living by cohabiting within human social groups. So they've 539 00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:15,000 Speaker 2: evolved these exemplary cross species communication skills that are unparalleled 540 00:29:15,000 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 2: in the rest of the animal kingdom. So I can 541 00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:19,800 Speaker 2: guarantee you that when your dog looks at you, when 542 00:29:19,800 --> 00:29:22,280 Speaker 2: your dog is gazing into your eyes, the research has 543 00:29:22,280 --> 00:29:25,400 Speaker 2: shown that they're releasing oxytocin, which we know in humans 544 00:29:25,520 --> 00:29:29,200 Speaker 2: it's been associated with trust and social bonding and even love. 545 00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 2: It's a really super important neuropeptide. So anyway, dogs are 546 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 2: releasing that when they're looking at you, so they may 547 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:39,680 Speaker 2: well be experiencing some kind of rudimentary form of love. 548 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,000 Speaker 2: But they certainly get something different from their relationship with 549 00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,760 Speaker 2: humans than they do with other dogs. And it's not 550 00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 2: just it's not just the dopaminergic pleasure pathways that they 551 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:51,320 Speaker 2: get by going, oh, you're going to give me food, 552 00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:55,920 Speaker 2: I'm associating you with food. It's a deeper, different kind 553 00:29:56,000 --> 00:29:59,360 Speaker 2: of relationship that is also linked with their social bonding 554 00:29:59,400 --> 00:30:00,640 Speaker 2: that they have with you in. 555 00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:05,320 Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm with you, yep, yep. Don't have to convince me. 556 00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: What made you? It's probably not the right question. How 557 00:30:13,560 --> 00:30:20,240 Speaker 1: did you end up in being a being a firefighter 558 00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:21,760 Speaker 1: or a fire off? So I don't know what the 559 00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,400 Speaker 1: correct term is in Britain, But how did that opportunity 560 00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 1: present itself? Is it something you pursued? Is that a 561 00:30:28,120 --> 00:30:30,600 Speaker 1: door that opened? How did you end up doing that? 562 00:30:31,600 --> 00:30:35,600 Speaker 2: Well? Initially, I hadn't thought about anything more than surviving 563 00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:39,000 Speaker 2: day today when I was experiencing homelessness. When you're in 564 00:30:39,040 --> 00:30:43,680 Speaker 2: that position, you don't necessarily have the headspace to put 565 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 2: a strategy together to live because it is literally a 566 00:30:46,640 --> 00:30:49,920 Speaker 2: surviving day to day. And I started to sell a 567 00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:52,760 Speaker 2: street magazine called The Big Issue. I don't know if 568 00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,800 Speaker 2: you have an equivalent. We have amazing, amazing. 569 00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,720 Speaker 1: It's sold literally on the street that I live. 570 00:30:59,440 --> 00:31:03,440 Speaker 2: Ah, fantastic, fantastic. Well, the big issue for me was 571 00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,320 Speaker 2: it was a lifeline and I'd buy this magazine for 572 00:31:06,360 --> 00:31:08,320 Speaker 2: cost price and I'd sell it on for a profit, 573 00:31:09,520 --> 00:31:12,000 Speaker 2: and eventually I started to sell it in Newport, but 574 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:14,080 Speaker 2: there were quite a few other people that also sold 575 00:31:14,120 --> 00:31:15,880 Speaker 2: it in Newport, so you were kind of hand to mouth. 576 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 2: So I found this village. It was an hour away 577 00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:20,920 Speaker 2: on a bus, but no one else was selling it there, 578 00:31:21,440 --> 00:31:23,720 Speaker 2: so it was a place called Monmoth. I would get 579 00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,760 Speaker 2: on a bus, I'd sit there from seven o'clock in 580 00:31:25,760 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 2: the morning till seven o'clock at night, till i'd sold 581 00:31:27,960 --> 00:31:31,360 Speaker 2: a stack of magazines, and eventually I managed to earn 582 00:31:31,480 --> 00:31:33,440 Speaker 2: enough to put a deposit down on a very cheap 583 00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:36,480 Speaker 2: and very nasty rented flat in the South Wales Valleys. 584 00:31:36,720 --> 00:31:39,760 Speaker 2: There are a few failed attempts at secure accommodation, including 585 00:31:40,680 --> 00:31:42,959 Speaker 2: a shared house that I managed to get a room in, 586 00:31:43,040 --> 00:31:45,640 Speaker 2: but I was quite violently attacked one of the guys. 587 00:31:45,640 --> 00:31:47,520 Speaker 2: They put me in hospital, so I was back out 588 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,880 Speaker 2: on the streets. I spent some time living in a van, 589 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:56,200 Speaker 2: but eventually secure accommodation became a reality for me, and 590 00:31:56,240 --> 00:31:58,360 Speaker 2: it was at that point I started to think what 591 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 2: else might become a reality for me. And the reason 592 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 2: I started to think about the fire service is because 593 00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:07,600 Speaker 2: I think it's actually a real privilege to be a 594 00:32:07,600 --> 00:32:10,560 Speaker 2: firefighter because people trust you to know what to do 595 00:32:11,080 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: when they're having the worst day of their lives. They 596 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:16,080 Speaker 2: don't call you unless they don't know what to do next. 597 00:32:16,160 --> 00:32:19,200 Speaker 2: It's an extreme situation and so to be the one 598 00:32:19,240 --> 00:32:22,720 Speaker 2: that's trusted to know what to do to either stop 599 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 2: that or at least stop it getting any worse, that's 600 00:32:26,280 --> 00:32:29,120 Speaker 2: really incredible. And I felt like I could relate to 601 00:32:29,160 --> 00:32:31,200 Speaker 2: it because I'd had the best part of two years 602 00:32:31,200 --> 00:32:33,640 Speaker 2: of feeling like I was the desperate one in need 603 00:32:33,680 --> 00:32:37,160 Speaker 2: of help but no one was coming. And although the 604 00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 2: context was different, I think the sentiment was the same. 605 00:32:41,280 --> 00:32:43,440 Speaker 2: And so I started to look at the fire service 606 00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:47,600 Speaker 2: and I must have applied to about thirty different fire 607 00:32:47,720 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 2: departments before or fire services is there in the UK 608 00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:54,000 Speaker 2: before I actually got a position. It was super tough 609 00:32:54,040 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 2: and super competitive. I started off part time as a 610 00:32:57,720 --> 00:33:02,200 Speaker 2: retained firefighter. It's like a volunteer firefighter and then eventually 611 00:33:02,280 --> 00:33:06,480 Speaker 2: got a whole time position, and I was woman number 612 00:33:06,520 --> 00:33:08,960 Speaker 2: seven in a workforce of seventeen hundred men. When I 613 00:33:08,960 --> 00:33:13,560 Speaker 2: first started, nationally, only one percent of operational firefighters were women, 614 00:33:14,120 --> 00:33:16,200 Speaker 2: so they were very, very few of us, and I 615 00:33:16,320 --> 00:33:18,680 Speaker 2: naively kind of went in thinking, Hey, this is going 616 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:20,680 Speaker 2: to be amazing and it's going to be like one big, 617 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:24,000 Speaker 2: happy family. And it was that point that I realized 618 00:33:24,280 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: what sexism actually felt like. You know, it was super 619 00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,600 Speaker 2: And Whilst I worked with some incredible people who are 620 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:32,600 Speaker 2: still like big brothers and sisters to me to this 621 00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,000 Speaker 2: very day, who pushed me to do things that I 622 00:33:35,080 --> 00:33:38,080 Speaker 2: never thought I was capable of, I also worked with 623 00:33:38,160 --> 00:33:41,080 Speaker 2: some people who took exception to the fact that I 624 00:33:41,120 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 2: was a woman and if I could do it, then 625 00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:46,920 Speaker 2: I think it made them feel less matcho. It was 626 00:33:46,960 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 2: a It affected their sense of identity and their sense 627 00:33:50,360 --> 00:33:52,240 Speaker 2: of who they were, so it doesn't didn't matter who 628 00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,760 Speaker 2: I was. The fact that I was coming in is 629 00:33:54,800 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 2: something that was so far removed from how they saw 630 00:33:58,040 --> 00:34:01,280 Speaker 2: themselves and was doing it, you know, I was, I 631 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,760 Speaker 2: could do it, I could do the job. That then 632 00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:09,719 Speaker 2: says to that person Hey, that's completely different to the 633 00:34:09,719 --> 00:34:12,480 Speaker 2: way that you see yourself. And so I think some 634 00:34:12,560 --> 00:34:15,680 Speaker 2: men have found it slightly emasculinating. Not everybody, but some, 635 00:34:15,880 --> 00:34:18,520 Speaker 2: and the ones that did were really prepared to let 636 00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:21,279 Speaker 2: me know about it. In fact, there was this one 637 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 2: guy that I used to come across who worked at 638 00:34:23,760 --> 00:34:26,720 Speaker 2: a neighboring station. Every time i'd see him, without fail, 639 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:29,360 Speaker 2: he'd say, Yeah, the thing is, I just don't agree 640 00:34:29,440 --> 00:34:32,080 Speaker 2: with women in the fire service. No offense to you, Sabrina, 641 00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:33,759 Speaker 2: you know, but I just don't agree with it. It's 642 00:34:33,760 --> 00:34:36,120 Speaker 2: not a thing. It shouldn't happen. It's dangerous. You know, 643 00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:40,160 Speaker 2: you'll get firefighters killed. And eventually, bear in mind, I 644 00:34:40,239 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 2: was eighteen at this point, and I kind of thought, 645 00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:45,120 Speaker 2: I need to apologize for my own existence here do I. 646 00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:47,719 Speaker 2: But then eventually I kind of got to the point 647 00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:49,360 Speaker 2: where I'd be like, no, I'm not having this, and 648 00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:51,600 Speaker 2: I'd say, yeah, you know, I get it. I feel you. 649 00:34:51,640 --> 00:34:54,120 Speaker 2: I feel exactly the same way about morons in the 650 00:34:54,160 --> 00:34:57,680 Speaker 2: fire service. We shouldn't no offense to you, fella, but 651 00:34:57,760 --> 00:35:02,400 Speaker 2: here we are, you know, idiot. 652 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: You know what would be the perfect end to that story? 653 00:35:05,200 --> 00:35:11,160 Speaker 1: And now I'm his boss that would be so good. 654 00:35:12,440 --> 00:35:17,120 Speaker 1: And now he drives me to appointments now, me and 655 00:35:17,160 --> 00:35:17,600 Speaker 1: my dog. 656 00:35:19,360 --> 00:35:22,040 Speaker 2: I suspect he's actually re tired now. But look, you know, 657 00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:24,880 Speaker 2: I mean, we've all said things in the past that 658 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:27,040 Speaker 2: we regret, right, And we've all said things that have 659 00:35:27,200 --> 00:35:29,759 Speaker 2: hurt someone and maybe we didn't realize it at the time. 660 00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,759 Speaker 2: And I hope that as time has moved on, he's 661 00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:34,799 Speaker 2: had the chance to reflect on that. I don't know how. 662 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,000 Speaker 2: Maybe he's had a daughter in the meantime and he's 663 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:39,520 Speaker 2: kind of seen firsthand some of the challenges and how 664 00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:42,880 Speaker 2: it affects someone. But you know, I don't hold it 665 00:35:42,920 --> 00:35:46,239 Speaker 2: against him. Everyone can change. Everyone is entitled to have 666 00:35:46,239 --> 00:35:48,640 Speaker 2: an opinion, regardless of whether I agree with it or not. 667 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:51,440 Speaker 2: But it's a harmful one, hey. It gives us a 668 00:35:51,520 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 2: chance to call it out and talk about it. And 669 00:35:53,600 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 2: here I am now, you know, twenty one years later, 670 00:35:56,800 --> 00:35:58,680 Speaker 2: being able to talk about it and talk about the 671 00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,560 Speaker 2: damage that it does because people still have those conversations today. 672 00:36:02,320 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 2: So it's an opportunity. 673 00:36:05,360 --> 00:36:08,280 Speaker 1: So you still currently am I right, Sabrenna and saying 674 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:11,760 Speaker 1: you're the current chief fire Officer of West Sussex Fire 675 00:36:12,000 --> 00:36:15,759 Speaker 1: and rescue service. So does that mean you how many 676 00:36:15,800 --> 00:36:20,080 Speaker 1: people at that station are you in charge of? 677 00:36:21,360 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 2: So it's a fire to it's a fire service rather 678 00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:27,800 Speaker 2: rather than just a station. So we have twenty five 679 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:32,080 Speaker 2: stations in my fire service all in all nearly one 680 00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:34,320 Speaker 2: thousand stuff but just under a thousand stuff. 681 00:36:34,600 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: You're in charge of one thousand staff and twenty five 682 00:36:37,320 --> 00:36:42,239 Speaker 1: centers or stations. Wow, that's bloody amazing. Good for you. 683 00:36:42,360 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: That is so incredible, all right, and I'm not surprised. 684 00:36:50,200 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 1: I'm just impressed. What's your if there is one? What's 685 00:36:56,280 --> 00:36:59,640 Speaker 1: your leadership style? Because it definitely ain't old mate that 686 00:36:59,680 --> 00:37:01,040 Speaker 1: you just spoke about before. 687 00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,920 Speaker 2: No, No, definitely not. And I think you know, it 688 00:37:04,000 --> 00:37:06,799 Speaker 2: changes depending on the context. There are times when you 689 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:10,040 Speaker 2: need to be quite authoritative to get a job done, 690 00:37:10,120 --> 00:37:12,759 Speaker 2: particularly operationally, but I always try to do it with 691 00:37:12,840 --> 00:37:16,320 Speaker 2: empathy and with humility. So for me, the most important 692 00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,879 Speaker 2: thing about your day to day leadership, I think is 693 00:37:19,480 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 2: to lead without ego and to lead with humility and 694 00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:25,920 Speaker 2: to be okay with vulnerability. You know, in my experiences 695 00:37:26,640 --> 00:37:29,279 Speaker 2: they've been they were really tough to talk about. You know, 696 00:37:29,920 --> 00:37:31,799 Speaker 2: it took me more than twenty years to talk about 697 00:37:31,800 --> 00:37:33,920 Speaker 2: my experience of homelessness because it made me feel a 698 00:37:33,960 --> 00:37:37,399 Speaker 2: shape it shouldn't, but that's that's the truth. That's how 699 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,160 Speaker 2: that was, that kind of aching feeling in my stomach 700 00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:42,600 Speaker 2: that I got every time I tried to talk to 701 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 2: anyone about it, and it made me feel like I 702 00:37:45,960 --> 00:37:48,759 Speaker 2: couldn't be like those other leaders that I'd see in 703 00:37:48,800 --> 00:37:51,480 Speaker 2: the fire industry, in the fire department that would be 704 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 2: you know, that would always know the answers and they 705 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:55,279 Speaker 2: would always be the ones that you want to say 706 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:57,160 Speaker 2: and you what to do and made everyone feel safe 707 00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:00,640 Speaker 2: and secure, or so I thought. The reality is actually 708 00:38:01,040 --> 00:38:04,080 Speaker 2: when somebody is so imposing on you, it can make 709 00:38:04,160 --> 00:38:08,600 Speaker 2: you feel insecure, not secure, because you have those vulnerabilities. Right. 710 00:38:08,680 --> 00:38:13,480 Speaker 2: So for me, it is about being self aware always 711 00:38:13,880 --> 00:38:16,920 Speaker 2: and leading that humility and putting other people's needs in 712 00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:18,879 Speaker 2: front of your own. You know, when anyone goes into 713 00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:23,080 Speaker 2: a workplace, right I see it. I choose to see 714 00:38:23,080 --> 00:38:25,480 Speaker 2: it like a family. And I know there are lots 715 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:27,359 Speaker 2: of reasons why you may not want to do that, 716 00:38:27,560 --> 00:38:31,080 Speaker 2: because you know family and work boundaries are separation. I 717 00:38:31,080 --> 00:38:35,120 Speaker 2: think for me, in this industry, given its high risk, 718 00:38:35,280 --> 00:38:38,680 Speaker 2: given you rely so deeply on those other people around 719 00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:42,640 Speaker 2: you to be able to do extraordinary things to save 720 00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:45,960 Speaker 2: people's lives. I think it is important that you recognize 721 00:38:46,000 --> 00:38:48,960 Speaker 2: that bond and that element of trust within that. So 722 00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 2: I do see it as a family. And I look 723 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:55,000 Speaker 2: at my own daughter, and she's twelve now, and you know, 724 00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:56,640 Speaker 2: I send her to school. I try to give her 725 00:38:56,640 --> 00:38:58,960 Speaker 2: all the experiences that I can, so she'll grow up 726 00:38:58,960 --> 00:39:01,120 Speaker 2: to be a successful hum Hman being right, and she'll 727 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,480 Speaker 2: be good for the world generally, and she'll be good 728 00:39:04,560 --> 00:39:06,879 Speaker 2: to people in the world. So as a parent, try 729 00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:08,920 Speaker 2: to give your child all that, and then they go 730 00:39:09,000 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 2: off and they go into the world of work, and 731 00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,680 Speaker 2: you let go of the reins, and then you're trusting 732 00:39:14,040 --> 00:39:16,879 Speaker 2: that whatever organization they go into are going to treat 733 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:18,839 Speaker 2: them with the same kind of dignity, the same kind 734 00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,560 Speaker 2: of respect, give them that opportunity for growth, give them 735 00:39:22,600 --> 00:39:26,080 Speaker 2: the opportunity to be part of something that's bigger than themselves. 736 00:39:27,360 --> 00:39:29,560 Speaker 2: And so I think, certainly for me, when you talk 737 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 2: about leadership style, I want it to feel like that. 738 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 2: I want it to feel like we're caring for people, 739 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,279 Speaker 2: like they're part of our own family, and we might 740 00:39:39,320 --> 00:39:41,520 Speaker 2: not always get it right. You know, not everyone is 741 00:39:41,560 --> 00:39:45,440 Speaker 2: going to have the perfect experience within that but as 742 00:39:45,520 --> 00:39:48,080 Speaker 2: part and parcel of it being real because you respond 743 00:39:48,160 --> 00:39:50,560 Speaker 2: to those things and you make it better, so someone 744 00:39:50,600 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 2: else has a better experience that comes in behind them. 745 00:39:54,760 --> 00:39:56,920 Speaker 2: But I'm not afraid to fail, and I'm not afraid 746 00:39:56,920 --> 00:39:59,120 Speaker 2: to talk about those failures because I think that that 747 00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:02,000 Speaker 2: is a SuperM or part of how other people can 748 00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:04,640 Speaker 2: then find what they need to be able to do 749 00:40:04,680 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 2: something difficult, or to do something innovative or something that 750 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 2: comes with a degree of risk, because they're not afraid 751 00:40:11,680 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 2: that failure means that that's terminal. So that's the way 752 00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:19,239 Speaker 2: that I tried to look at it. It's not always 753 00:40:19,520 --> 00:40:23,279 Speaker 2: it's not always easy. I try to combine. I do 754 00:40:23,360 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 2: combine my research work with my day job as well, 755 00:40:27,120 --> 00:40:29,560 Speaker 2: and we do a lot of work around firefighter safety, 756 00:40:29,600 --> 00:40:33,280 Speaker 2: and that's based on the same principle for me about 757 00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:37,080 Speaker 2: how we can genuinely make things better, how we can 758 00:40:37,120 --> 00:40:41,600 Speaker 2: help you. And that research actually came from an experience 759 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:45,440 Speaker 2: that I had where my husband and I, before we 760 00:40:45,440 --> 00:40:49,719 Speaker 2: were married, were both firefighters on neighboring stations, and one 761 00:40:49,800 --> 00:40:51,879 Speaker 2: day I was called to deal with an incident where 762 00:40:51,920 --> 00:40:54,600 Speaker 2: another firefighter had been severely burned, and there was a 763 00:40:54,600 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 2: one and four chance it was him, and so I 764 00:40:57,160 --> 00:41:01,479 Speaker 2: had awful sinking feeling where I went down. We were 765 00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:04,279 Speaker 2: in the appliance bay, the bells had gone down that 766 00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:06,720 Speaker 2: a couple of guys were stood at the teleprinter looking 767 00:41:06,760 --> 00:41:09,440 Speaker 2: at the sheet of paper. And it took me a 768 00:41:09,440 --> 00:41:12,720 Speaker 2: few seconds to register why everyone was kind of looking 769 00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 2: so worried and so nervous. And I said, what is it? 770 00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,800 Speaker 2: And I said it's a firefighter injury. It looks really bad. 771 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,520 Speaker 2: And I said, well, why aren't we going? And they 772 00:41:20,560 --> 00:41:23,680 Speaker 2: said it's it's Mike's truck. It might be Mike. And 773 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,359 Speaker 2: I felt what a world collapsed at that point, And 774 00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 2: I felt like I was about to become one of 775 00:41:29,160 --> 00:41:31,719 Speaker 2: the people that we see every day who wake up 776 00:41:31,719 --> 00:41:35,279 Speaker 2: to a bowl of corn flakes and complete normality, only 777 00:41:35,360 --> 00:41:38,919 Speaker 2: for something to happen unexpectedly and their entire world gets 778 00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:41,760 Speaker 2: torn apart. And as we were traveling there, I remember 779 00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,960 Speaker 2: thinking that I was really torn between the role of 780 00:41:44,960 --> 00:41:48,200 Speaker 2: a responder and all of the kind of responsibility and 781 00:41:48,200 --> 00:41:50,960 Speaker 2: accountability that goes with that, but also the role of 782 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,000 Speaker 2: a loved one and all of the kind the kind 783 00:41:54,000 --> 00:41:58,040 Speaker 2: of fears and anxieties that go with that as well. Anyway, 784 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,239 Speaker 2: we turned up and thankfully for me at least, it 785 00:42:01,280 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 2: turned out not to be him, but it was our 786 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:08,080 Speaker 2: colleague who was also a friend. And it was after 787 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:09,680 Speaker 2: that that I al really started to think about this 788 00:42:09,760 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 2: and it played on my mind. And what they've been 789 00:42:11,280 --> 00:42:13,680 Speaker 2: called to was an exploding pavement. I don't know what 790 00:42:13,719 --> 00:42:17,080 Speaker 2: your experiences of either explosions or pavements, but they don't 791 00:42:17,120 --> 00:42:19,800 Speaker 2: traditionally tend to go together. So they turned up eating 792 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 2: it as a hoax. They thought it was nonsense. What 793 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,279 Speaker 2: it actually was was an underground electrical junction box that 794 00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:28,319 Speaker 2: had a fault in it, and periodically, as electricity went 795 00:42:28,360 --> 00:42:31,160 Speaker 2: through it, it would shoot up flame like a jet engine 796 00:42:31,160 --> 00:42:33,400 Speaker 2: at the ground. And Mike had been lying on his 797 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,520 Speaker 2: belly with his head in the pit, poking around, wondering 798 00:42:35,520 --> 00:42:37,920 Speaker 2: what on earth this so called exploding pavement could be. 799 00:42:38,440 --> 00:42:39,799 Speaker 2: And it was as he got up to put the 800 00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:42,040 Speaker 2: lid back in that it exploded and caught our colleague 801 00:42:42,040 --> 00:42:44,960 Speaker 2: clean in the face. Thankfully, he survived and he's made 802 00:42:45,360 --> 00:42:47,800 Speaker 2: a full recovery now. But if it was seconds earlier, 803 00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:50,080 Speaker 2: there's no doubt in my mind that Mike would have 804 00:42:50,080 --> 00:42:54,160 Speaker 2: been killed outright. And so after that I started to 805 00:42:54,200 --> 00:42:57,359 Speaker 2: feel this intense sense of guilt because I felt like 806 00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:00,560 Speaker 2: by not wanting it to be him so much on 807 00:43:00,640 --> 00:43:03,080 Speaker 2: someone else. And I found that really difficult to reconcile. 808 00:43:03,840 --> 00:43:05,440 Speaker 2: And it was then that I started to look at 809 00:43:05,440 --> 00:43:07,560 Speaker 2: what we could do to make it better for other 810 00:43:07,600 --> 00:43:11,200 Speaker 2: people in the same kind of circumstance, And naively I thought, 811 00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 2: if we can develop a better burns pack, maybe we'd 812 00:43:13,719 --> 00:43:16,040 Speaker 2: be better prepared. So I started off trying to do that, 813 00:43:16,560 --> 00:43:19,080 Speaker 2: and as I started to look into it, I discovered 814 00:43:19,080 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 2: something that astounded me, and that's the majority of injuries 815 00:43:22,280 --> 00:43:25,520 Speaker 2: across all industries, not just fire, happened as a result 816 00:43:25,600 --> 00:43:27,800 Speaker 2: of human error, Not a problem with a piece of 817 00:43:27,840 --> 00:43:30,799 Speaker 2: equipment or a flawed policy, but a human mistake. The 818 00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:32,880 Speaker 2: wrong choice in the wrong place at the wrong time. 819 00:43:33,320 --> 00:43:35,719 Speaker 2: For that meant someone would get hurt. And so that 820 00:43:35,840 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 2: for me was the driver to go back and look 821 00:43:38,120 --> 00:43:40,319 Speaker 2: at what we could do to understand human error to 822 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:44,280 Speaker 2: reduce it. And so, as you know, I left home 823 00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:47,040 Speaker 2: really early at fifteen. I left school at sixteen, so 824 00:43:47,080 --> 00:43:50,840 Speaker 2: I didn't have a degree or qualification, so I thought, Okay, 825 00:43:50,880 --> 00:43:52,319 Speaker 2: I'll put one foot in front of the other and 826 00:43:52,320 --> 00:43:53,840 Speaker 2: see where I end up. So I went back to 827 00:43:53,920 --> 00:43:57,240 Speaker 2: night school. I did my degree part time while working 828 00:43:57,280 --> 00:43:59,920 Speaker 2: all the way up to a PhD, which I did 829 00:44:00,040 --> 00:44:02,759 Speaker 2: d'd around work. So I'd go into the lab at 830 00:44:02,760 --> 00:44:05,600 Speaker 2: five o'clock in the morning, I'd run my experiments. I'd 831 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:07,600 Speaker 2: go and i'd pull a full shift in the fire service. 832 00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:09,480 Speaker 2: I'd go home, put my new one baby to bed 833 00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:12,200 Speaker 2: because that was amazing timing, wasn't it. And I'd go 834 00:44:12,280 --> 00:44:14,359 Speaker 2: back to the lab for the night shift and I'd 835 00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,040 Speaker 2: be there until kind of twelve one o'clock in the 836 00:44:16,040 --> 00:44:19,439 Speaker 2: morning sometimes. So I finished a seven year part time 837 00:44:19,440 --> 00:44:22,160 Speaker 2: PhD in three years. They had to re register me 838 00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:26,040 Speaker 2: as full time so I could submit early. And then 839 00:44:26,200 --> 00:44:30,399 Speaker 2: since then for the last decade now, well it will 840 00:44:30,440 --> 00:44:32,280 Speaker 2: be more than that was twenty ten that we started, 841 00:44:32,880 --> 00:44:35,719 Speaker 2: so more than a decade. We've been looking at how 842 00:44:35,840 --> 00:44:41,120 Speaker 2: firefighters and frontline responders make decisions actually in the heat 843 00:44:41,120 --> 00:44:46,040 Speaker 2: of the moment, actually at incidents live. We can understand 844 00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:48,879 Speaker 2: them better so that we can find techniques that can 845 00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,480 Speaker 2: help them to make better decisions. And we developed some 846 00:44:51,520 --> 00:44:54,400 Speaker 2: techniques in the UK that actually changed our national policy 847 00:44:54,760 --> 00:44:57,080 Speaker 2: for the way that we respond to incidents, for how 848 00:44:57,400 --> 00:45:01,040 Speaker 2: we train our firefighters differently now to make decisions in 849 00:45:01,080 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 2: a different way because of this research and this work 850 00:45:04,239 --> 00:45:07,879 Speaker 2: that we did, and so, you know, coming from such 851 00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 2: a kind of small a corner of an idea, you know, 852 00:45:10,719 --> 00:45:13,480 Speaker 2: I'm so pleased that we were able to do something practical, 853 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,719 Speaker 2: and we've notched the science along as well. We're up 854 00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:21,960 Speaker 2: to our I think tenth Global Science Award for the work. 855 00:45:23,680 --> 00:45:27,399 Speaker 2: It's been incredible and I never ever would have thought 856 00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,719 Speaker 2: when I look back to how I felt when we 857 00:45:29,719 --> 00:45:32,399 Speaker 2: were on that truck and I felt like my entire 858 00:45:32,640 --> 00:45:35,040 Speaker 2: world was going to collapse in that moment. When I 859 00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:38,920 Speaker 2: look back to that particular point in time and I 860 00:45:38,960 --> 00:45:41,080 Speaker 2: think where we are now, what we've been able to do, 861 00:45:41,520 --> 00:45:43,359 Speaker 2: I would never have been able to see it at 862 00:45:43,400 --> 00:45:46,879 Speaker 2: the time. Someone would have said, Hey, this awful thing 863 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:50,000 Speaker 2: is going to happen, but you know what, it's going 864 00:45:50,080 --> 00:45:52,640 Speaker 2: to be the biggest opportunity that you're going to have. 865 00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:55,960 Speaker 2: I wouldn't have paid them. There's no way I could 866 00:45:56,000 --> 00:45:58,600 Speaker 2: have seen it. But it's true. It's true. 867 00:45:59,040 --> 00:46:03,040 Speaker 1: What a beautiful synergy between your job and your or 868 00:46:03,080 --> 00:46:06,279 Speaker 1: your two jobs really your research job and you know, 869 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: your firefight your job in the fire service, you know, 870 00:46:09,239 --> 00:46:14,560 Speaker 1: and to be able to you know, use both of them, 871 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:17,759 Speaker 1: and to be able to use your research background and 872 00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: your role as a PhD and all of that, but 873 00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:26,040 Speaker 1: to be able to carry out that kind of research. 874 00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:29,880 Speaker 1: And I guess you don't struggle for participants because you 875 00:46:29,880 --> 00:46:33,000 Speaker 1: can just go you're a participant. What do you mean 876 00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:33,600 Speaker 1: you don't want to? 877 00:46:33,760 --> 00:46:41,200 Speaker 2: Yes, you are, you know, like to. 878 00:46:41,120 --> 00:46:43,759 Speaker 1: All our people, our listeners, who are going, what are 879 00:46:43,800 --> 00:46:46,200 Speaker 1: we talking about? When you do PhD research? One of 880 00:46:46,200 --> 00:46:49,400 Speaker 1: the struggles and I've been very fortunate also because they 881 00:46:49,440 --> 00:46:53,120 Speaker 1: have an audience, Sabrena. But one of the big struggles 882 00:46:53,200 --> 00:46:56,200 Speaker 1: is actually to get people to participate in your studies 883 00:46:56,239 --> 00:46:58,920 Speaker 1: because people like, how what's in it for me? But 884 00:46:59,000 --> 00:47:01,000 Speaker 1: I guess when you're in charge of a thousand people, 885 00:47:01,040 --> 00:47:04,000 Speaker 1: you go right, and you two hundred are doing this, 886 00:47:04,200 --> 00:47:06,919 Speaker 1: You're welcome and it's all for the greater good. 887 00:47:07,680 --> 00:47:10,640 Speaker 2: We always got for volunteers, We always got for volunteers. 888 00:47:10,680 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 2: But to be fair, I think, you know, improving the 889 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 2: safety of firefighters is something that all firefights cared deeply 890 00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,319 Speaker 2: about because these are people that we're really close to. 891 00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:22,840 Speaker 2: You know that it's not it's not just a colleague, 892 00:47:22,880 --> 00:47:25,680 Speaker 2: it's it's more than that. So anything that we can 893 00:47:25,719 --> 00:47:28,640 Speaker 2: do to keep people around us safer, I find people 894 00:47:28,680 --> 00:47:30,799 Speaker 2: are really willing to get involved with. So we've been 895 00:47:30,800 --> 00:47:33,920 Speaker 2: really blessed. Actually, we've had no shortage of volunteers for 896 00:47:33,960 --> 00:47:36,200 Speaker 2: the for the research that we've been doing over. 897 00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:38,640 Speaker 1: Of course you're their fucking boss, as if they're going 898 00:47:38,680 --> 00:47:46,120 Speaker 1: to say no. Amazingly, Amazingly, we've had no shortage. Well, 899 00:47:46,160 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 1: of course you're thess oh god, just hitting the pause 900 00:47:53,719 --> 00:47:55,200 Speaker 1: button momentarily as we do. 901 00:47:55,480 --> 00:47:55,760 Speaker 2: Team. 902 00:47:56,120 --> 00:47:58,879 Speaker 1: We'll be back tomorrow with part two of this conversation. 903 00:47:59,200 --> 00:48:00,960 Speaker 1: Stand by, enjoy your day