Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.
Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never
Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.
Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.
Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a
Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,
Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.
Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories
Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw
Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some
Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because
Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.
Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,
Speaker 1: I spoke to Iaran Roberts, the former hard man of
Speaker 1: the NRL. We spoke about his career during a brutal
Speaker 1: era when on field violence and macho masculinity was a
Speaker 1: culture Eran also talked about how how difficult was during
Speaker 1: this time dealing with his sexuality and the consequence has
Speaker 1: been the first high profile professional sportsman coming out in
Speaker 1: public as gay. We also had a deeply personal conversation
Speaker 1: about the emotional impact the murder of seventeen year old
Speaker 1: Aaron Light, a young man Iaran was very close to,
Speaker 1: and the remorse he felt following Aaron's brutal murder. Ian
Speaker 1: also talked about how he only found his true self
Speaker 1: after rugby league through acting activism and helping others deal
Speaker 1: with their own insecurities. Before we started this interview and
Speaker 1: told me nothing was off limits. Well, Iran was true
Speaker 1: to his word and it has made for a fascinating conversation.
Speaker 1: I find Ian's story quite inspirational. Have to listen, Iaran Roberts.
Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.
Speaker 2: It's nice to be here. It's nice to be well.
Speaker 2: I catch killers. It's been intimidating to be asked to
Speaker 2: come on, I catch killers.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay at a police interview room. Let's relax. Only
Speaker 1: worry when I start to caution you. I've been a
Speaker 1: big fan of yours for a long time, and I
Speaker 1: think obviously on the football field, but more for the
Speaker 1: courage that you took to stand up and be yourself,
Speaker 1: to be your true self. And I think a lot
Speaker 1: of people shy away from that. They go through life
Speaker 1: and yeah, trying to please people. Or conforming to what
Speaker 1: people want them to be and so full credit to.
Speaker 2: You, thank you, mate. But I will say I have
Speaker 2: been very fortunate. I mean it was such a lot.
Speaker 2: You know, obviously you're referring to my sexuality when I
Speaker 2: came out, like, I've been very fortunate, mate, I am,
Speaker 2: and actually I mean I'm sixty. I'm sixty next month, right,
Speaker 2: So I've been totally like comfortable in my own self
Speaker 2: now for thirty. You know, even when I was even
Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I was always completely comfortable
Speaker 2: like owning it and admitting to myself that I was
Speaker 2: saying sex attracted. I mean, I like, I've never been
Speaker 2: any had any internalized homophobia, which I'm really grateful for
Speaker 2: because a lot of people do have to, you know,
Speaker 2: to do something, struggle with it, deal with it. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I mean, I I can never so it hasn't been
Speaker 2: I mean, yes, I've been fortunate, and it's you know,
Speaker 2: it has been difficult at times, but yeah, I've never
Speaker 2: had an issue with it. Yeah, I mean I suppose.
Speaker 2: I mean, even thinking back now, the first time I
Speaker 2: remember that I was different if if that's I didn't know,
Speaker 2: if that's the right word way to use that word,
Speaker 2: but it would have been I would have been seven
Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. And I only know that because there
Speaker 2: was a show called Checkerboard and it was it was
Speaker 2: It was aired in nineteen seventy two, and I went
Speaker 2: to the fiftieth anniversary about three years ago of this show.
Speaker 2: And it was the first and this is why I know.
Speaker 2: I was seven years old. It was the first time
Speaker 2: to gay men had kissed on TV. And I was
Speaker 2: sat in the lounge room with my dad watching it.
Speaker 2: This is this is gospel and these two men kiss
Speaker 2: like kissed on TV. And I was like, Oh, that's
Speaker 2: what I do with my best mate, Barry Riley. You know.
Speaker 2: It was just kids, kids being kids, right, I just
Speaker 2: have a bit like and my dad and I just
Speaker 2: used the language my dad said. My dad was like, Oh,
Speaker 2: these fucking queers make my skin creep, you know, And
Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, I probably shouldn't tell dad about Barry.
Speaker 1: Well, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: But I mean, I went to that fifteenth anniversary one
Speaker 2: of that the gentleman Peter is still alive. That was
Speaker 2: like about three years ago. So I mean, that's but
Speaker 2: I even knew before that that I was but I
Speaker 2: also knew that, you know, it was something everyone else
Speaker 2: had a problem with.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 2: Obviously my dad's reaction was was just of its day,
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, but yeah, I never I never
Speaker 2: strugg internally, mate. So I've always been really grateful that
Speaker 2: that I had that makeup, that I didn't challenge myself
Speaker 2: with it, and I didn't feel that I was in
Speaker 2: any way dirty or wrong. A lot of people go
Speaker 2: through that whole experience, yeah.
Speaker 1: Because you hear a lot of people talk about that
Speaker 1: type of experience and that they suppress it and fight
Speaker 1: it and the whole life, and yeah, it's enlightened when
Speaker 1: they come out, yeah midway through their life.
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've never had that. I've never had that
Speaker 2: sense of feeling in any way internalized anything negative, you know,
Speaker 2: like I just haven't. I I consider myself really fortunate.
Speaker 2: That's why I say unfortunate. I've been fortunate.
Speaker 1: No, I understand well, As I said, I wanted to
Speaker 1: get you on for a long time, and the opportunity
Speaker 1: presented itself beautifully earlier this week, when Johnny had lined
Speaker 1: us up to do a boxing session together.
Speaker 2: Johnny lewis so nice to say him, He's like he's
Speaker 2: one of those rare human beings. I can honestly say
Speaker 2: I and Johnny is one of those one of those
Speaker 2: people you meet in life you're a better person for
Speaker 2: having met Johnny Lewis, like once you've knocked around and
Speaker 2: like spent some time with him and saying the way
Speaker 2: he's the way he lives his life in his philosophy,
Speaker 2: like it's empowered. I mean, you understand what I'm talking.
Speaker 2: He's one of those rare people. You know. It's like
Speaker 2: like if he's one of those people that if if
Speaker 2: someone else ever said something, you know, like negative about Johnny,
Speaker 2: you have to say, mate, what's wrong with you? Johnny?
Speaker 2: Like there's you know, you've got that wrong man, Like
Speaker 2: you've you know, there's something wrong with you, Like Johnny
Speaker 2: is He's just He's Yeah, he's one of those rare
Speaker 2: human But I love the guy.
Speaker 1: I think because he as we're discussing the other other
Speaker 1: day when we're training, that he's a mental to so
Speaker 1: many people. But I think I'm looking for what that
Speaker 1: special magic is and he just accepts people for who
Speaker 1: he is, and he looks for the good in people,
Speaker 1: and that that's seems.
Speaker 2: He doesn't matter to Johnny where you said socially like
Speaker 2: you know what I mean, as long as you've got
Speaker 2: a smile on your face and and you're respectful, that's
Speaker 2: that's yeah, that's everyone's an egal Yeah.
Speaker 1: It's a good way to go through life, isn't it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great. But I just like it was kind
Speaker 2: of nice. Could Like I said, I haven't hit the
Speaker 2: pads ranging for a while, and then ten fifteen minutes
Speaker 2: into it starts to get back into your body. It's
Speaker 2: like things get in your body and like anyone that
Speaker 2: that recall can't and you start a couple of times
Speaker 2: you hit hit the pads really well and just like
Speaker 2: you can feel the strength and oh yeah that feels great,
Speaker 2: you know, I just remember. Yeah, so that was kind
Speaker 2: of nice. But I will say I'm sixty next month.
Speaker 2: The day after, oh my god, I felt I felt
Speaker 2: my shoulders felt like I was one hundred mont I
Speaker 2: was just.
Speaker 1: Says something, doesn't you lose it? But I wondered if you, yeah.
Speaker 2: My shoulders particularly just but I've had issues with my
Speaker 2: shoulders now for a long time. But I do. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I'm not twenty, you know, I mean when you're twenty,
Speaker 2: like when you're fifteen hitting about twenty. You're never going
Speaker 2: to be fifty and sixty, are you? No, that's just
Speaker 2: that's for dead people.
Speaker 1: That's true, right, you can't even think about it.
Speaker 2: That's never going to happen to you. But yeah, get
Speaker 2: to your catches as all.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're a lot of things for a lot
Speaker 1: of people like you've had. I think even I'm sure
Speaker 1: you describe yourself as an ordinary man caught up in
Speaker 1: extraordinary times and things. But you know, you're a footballer,
Speaker 1: you're an actor, you're an activist. You've come out on
Speaker 1: so many different issues, and you take a stand on things.
Speaker 1: I suppose the question and trying to introduce you to
Speaker 1: the podcast here, how would you describe yourself? It's a
Speaker 1: tough question.
Speaker 2: That's a I'm gonna have to memory and come back around.
Speaker 2: And I had never thought of it like that. I mean,
Speaker 2: that's really you know, I don't know if anyone's how
Speaker 2: do I view myself as.
Speaker 1: I'll help you help you out a bit in terms
Speaker 1: of what you've done in life, what you've achieved, And
Speaker 1: you've achieved good things in different different areas, and success
Speaker 1: is measured in different different ways. But you followed your
Speaker 1: passions on different things. Do you see yourself as a
Speaker 1: footballer or do you see yourself as an actor or
Speaker 1: a combination of all these things.
Speaker 2: I think you know, people are complex man, Like you know,
Speaker 2: age changes changing changes as well. My views now, like
Speaker 2: in lame, will change on Like like I said earlier, mate,
Speaker 2: you know when you're fifteen to twenty, you're never going
Speaker 2: to be sixty. Yeah, you know, like everything changes. I yeah,
Speaker 2: I think I look at my mum and dad and
Speaker 2: how they struggled, you know, I mean they really struggled.
Speaker 2: I mean I'm a ten pound pom. My mum and
Speaker 2: dad came out here. They would have been twenty seven.
Speaker 2: They came out on a boat, so I would have
Speaker 2: been about I was about one and a half. I
Speaker 2: had an older brother, Paul, and an older sister Julie.
Speaker 2: They were a couple of years older than May. My
Speaker 2: mom and dad came out here with you know, less
Speaker 2: than about fifty quid in their pocket. I just and
Speaker 2: you know, like it's kind of weird, but not weird.
Speaker 2: Don't I say this one. I'm about to say it's
Speaker 2: going to sound really negative, Like I grew up and contradictory.
Speaker 2: I grew up in a very It almost feels uncomfortably
Speaker 2: saying I just say I grew up in a very racist, misogynistic,
Speaker 2: homophobic family, but I grew up in a very loving family. Yeah,
Speaker 2: and it sounds like my mom and dad. The truth
Speaker 2: is that, you know, my mom and dad left England
Speaker 2: and they brought their three kids with them because there
Speaker 2: was too many blacks coming to to London, right, I
Speaker 2: just be honest. But my mom and dad's journey while
Speaker 2: being here my dad passed away ten years ago, has
Speaker 2: been unbelievable, like their journey in themselves. And that you
Speaker 2: asked me who I was. I think my dad kind
Speaker 2: of answered that for moment. My dad passed away ten
Speaker 2: years ago, and just be prior to him passing away,
Speaker 2: he got interview. The interview was about me, but you
Speaker 2: know they were asking my dad. And I have a
Speaker 2: younger sister too. My younger sister, Kyle, was born a
Speaker 2: couple of years after we got here, so you know
Speaker 2: I have had two brothers, two sisters and a brother.
Speaker 2: And the I think this kind of answers you, kind
Speaker 2: of answers your question, not so much about me, but
Speaker 2: the way I was brought up and where I like
Speaker 2: to feel like who I am. The interview, I asked
Speaker 2: my dad. You know, they said, my dad, you must
Speaker 2: be very proud of your son and what he's done,
Speaker 2: you know, referring to me in my situation and my dad,
Speaker 2: but like it was like the best, the most. My
Speaker 2: dad was very uneducated, but the answer like it was Shakespearean.
Speaker 2: My dad said, you know when they said, you know,
Speaker 2: you must be very proud of your son, and my
Speaker 2: dad said, I'm equally as proud of all my children.
Speaker 2: But I am so grateful all that grateful that I
Speaker 2: was gifted a gay son and I got to see
Speaker 2: the world as it really is. Wow.
Speaker 1: That's that's insightful, isn't it.
Speaker 2: It's true like a bit, but it's like like like adversity,
Speaker 2: you know, like adversity is what makes us that that's
Speaker 2: that's what you really see, that's what shines in people.
Speaker 2: My dad was like say, like I was, like, where
Speaker 2: did that come from? You said, that's how I feel.
Speaker 2: He said, that's you know I felt. And my dad
Speaker 2: was When I first came out to my parents, I
Speaker 2: didn't they didn't have We didn't talk for a number
Speaker 2: of years. And that's because that was they fire problems.
Speaker 2: I was really stubborn. I was always like you'd always said,
Speaker 2: it didn't matter who I brought home, you know, as
Speaker 2: I was growing up, you would love them because I
Speaker 2: brought home someone the same sex. My parents initially, you know,
Speaker 2: wouldn't allowed my then partner into the house. And I
Speaker 2: saw we didn't. We didn't see each other or speak
Speaker 2: for a number of years. But just their journey look
Speaker 2: like that process of allowing change to happen, Like, I
Speaker 2: think that is what you know, sometimes you just got
Speaker 2: to allow change to happen. It's like you don't have
Speaker 2: to agree with someone, but you can always have a
Speaker 2: conversation with someone. Yeah, I don't know if that's answering.
Speaker 1: Well, you can have some kindness and just whinding it
Speaker 1: back a little bit with your your parents coming out.
Speaker 1: I am always amazed that people that can establish a
Speaker 1: new life in another country. It takes courage, doesn't it. Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: people say there's life can be hard. I can't even comprehend,
Speaker 1: you know, the courage it takes to just be terrifying,
Speaker 1: right and after another country, Yeah, one terrifying, the other
Speaker 1: thing about the values and you talk about that your
Speaker 1: parents had they said racist views, and that it's also
Speaker 1: a generational thing, isn't it that the world has changed,
Speaker 1: Like I give, I hear comments from people, you know,
Speaker 1: a generational two ahead, I think you can't say that anymore. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but on.
Speaker 2: The wrong side wrong side history.
Speaker 1: I dare say, you know, in thirty years time, there'll
Speaker 1: be comments that we're saying now and people just look
Speaker 1: at those two dinosaurs.
Speaker 2: That's not the way you're meant to.
Speaker 1: Meant meant to. A question that might be easier to answer,
Speaker 1: is what's scarier walking out on the football field about
Speaker 1: to face an angry pack, walking on stage, walking onto
Speaker 1: a stage with a live audience.
Speaker 2: You know, I think for either of those two situations
Speaker 2: can be terrifying the first initially, but I think everything
Speaker 2: with like in confidence, everything becomes unbelievably powerful and engaging.
Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't mean, you know what the word is,
Speaker 2: but it becomes exciting. I mean, I yeah, like initially
Speaker 2: playing rugby league in the first few times you played
Speaker 2: first grade, it's terrifying, you know, for the first twelve months.
Speaker 2: Really walking on stage the first few times as well,
Speaker 2: But there comes up, there comes like it's almost like
Speaker 2: an evolution within yourself of growth or I don't even
Speaker 2: know if that's the right description, but confidence, once you
Speaker 2: start finding your own way, finding your own mans, finding
Speaker 2: your own path and the way you do things. There
Speaker 2: was you know, there was a number of times during
Speaker 2: my playing career that I that I was playing like
Speaker 2: with and I think any any sports person will understand
Speaker 2: what I'm about to say. When you play with like
Speaker 2: just supreme confidence, So like you know, you hear that expression,
Speaker 2: things slow down and you just get into this flow. Well,
Speaker 2: it really does. Like there was some you know, it's
Speaker 2: probably happened to me half a dozen times in my
Speaker 2: playing career. I had patches for like a few months
Speaker 2: where everything was just I was in control. I was
Speaker 2: totally confident that my ability or it totally knew what
Speaker 2: I was going to do before I did it. And
Speaker 2: that kind of happened. But it took a long time
Speaker 2: to get to that point as well. You know, my
Speaker 2: initial couple of years at South I started playing first
Speaker 2: grade at House in eighty six. You know, I was
Speaker 2: like I was terrified of my own teammates, That's.
Speaker 1: True, but they were scar it was I was.
Speaker 2: I was in this pack with Les Davison, like David Boyle,
Speaker 2: Mario Fanic, Wayne Chisholm. You know, I was just like
Speaker 2: I was scared of like I was playing in the
Speaker 2: same team. It was just like and they had a
Speaker 2: really like I kind of caught that tail into that,
Speaker 2: that generation of that the way the game was played
Speaker 2: played played there.
Speaker 1: I was brutal.
Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of like cheap shots and.
Speaker 1: No place for the faint heart.
Speaker 2: You know, it is, it is what it is. But
Speaker 2: I mean I, as a young guy might coming into
Speaker 2: the and into this house pack. That was the first
Speaker 2: year George Piggins was there, and Gus Goob was in
Speaker 2: the second row as well as his final year, and
Speaker 2: he kind of coached the team. But I had a
Speaker 2: high work rate. I didn't. I wasn't really I mean
Speaker 2: I like thirty forty tackles whatever and number hit. That
Speaker 2: was always my style player as a young guy. But
Speaker 2: I did learn after a while you kind of had
Speaker 2: to It's almost like you had to mold you had
Speaker 2: to mold yourself into something more than what was just
Speaker 2: basic and that kind of scene basic. What I mean
Speaker 2: by that is like I mean when I left Souse
Speaker 2: in a United like Les Davis and used to cut
Speaker 2: guys in half in that And I'm not advocating for
Speaker 2: that anymore, but I'm just saying, like he said this style,
Speaker 2: and I knew when I went from South to Man,
Speaker 2: I just wanted to change my game, be a bit
Speaker 2: more enforce and really take ownership of the game in
Speaker 2: the forward packing like yeah, but you just have to
Speaker 2: and that comes with confidence. In just the first couple
Speaker 2: of years at House, you know, I was terrified Mason time.
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean the first game I played with
Speaker 2: the Charity Ship and we were playing some George and
Speaker 2: I was like, opposite me, it was Craig young Man,
Speaker 2: like he was like a bit of a god, like
Speaker 2: he was one of my favorite players. I just like
Speaker 2: he was like this oak tree, right, there's no change.
Speaker 2: There's no change in his like his shape from his necks,
Speaker 2: from his head down to his feet, like it's just.
Speaker 1: Like this, it's just a block.
Speaker 2: Oh man. He was like a redwood. And we used
Speaker 2: to have Tuger Craig Common. We had this move, this
Speaker 2: call called Henry. It was you all in right.
Speaker 1: If your little nippy half back.
Speaker 2: And the second the second, the second scram Tiger walks
Speaker 2: through Henry's on, Henry's on Craig Youngs just was I
Speaker 2: was like, I went the water please, no.
Speaker 1: No, I'm like at the call of Henry.
Speaker 2: H and I like I made some feeble attempt. I
Speaker 2: just wanted him to put like Craig Young to put
Speaker 2: me out of my misery. Like I was just like
Speaker 2: I was an order guy. You know. He nearly put
Speaker 2: his like his fist through the back of my head.
Speaker 2: But I was just but but that was that was
Speaker 2: just being phased out at that time, like it and
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm grateful for it. But it did also
Speaker 2: give me a realization of how physical the game had
Speaker 2: to be at that time it was and if you
Speaker 2: and if you didn't adjust your play and then that's
Speaker 2: what I'm what I meant when I kind of when
Speaker 2: I towards eighty eight eighty nine, when I really started
Speaker 2: to become aware, you've got to change the style of
Speaker 2: played to make this work for you.
Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, as the game is evolving you, you've
Speaker 1: got to evolve too. I want to I want to
Speaker 1: talk about talk about your career, but before I just
Speaker 1: want to get a sense of your your growing up,
Speaker 1: where where'd you grow up.
Speaker 2: So, like I said, we were ten pound palms. We
Speaker 2: grew up in in the hostel at Dacyville. We were
Speaker 2: there for three or four years when we first came
Speaker 2: out here. Then we moved to Erubro and that's back
Speaker 2: in the Housing Commission.
Speaker 3: We lived.
Speaker 2: Moved from Aruba to I went to Uber Bay School
Speaker 2: from kindergarten right through to high school. Then we moved
Speaker 2: to South Could you always in the housing Commission?
Speaker 1: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And I think we left the Housing Commission my mom
Speaker 2: and dad bought their first home in Botany. I would
Speaker 2: have been about sixteen then. I think that would have
Speaker 2: been about eighty one.
Speaker 1: And did was football always your passion or well?
Speaker 2: My dad used to be a boxer, right like, so
Speaker 2: it kind of I kind of learned to box, not
Speaker 2: learned to box. I mean, that's a hard way to
Speaker 2: describe it. But my dad used to train my brother
Speaker 2: and Ice. I've kind of always been and I've always been.
Speaker 2: Really I felt really fortunate my dad did that because
Speaker 2: for my own situation later in life. And yeah, I've
Speaker 2: always kind of been able to look after myself, like
Speaker 2: not look after myself, but you get what I mean.
Speaker 1: But like I do it and I think and I've
Speaker 1: been grateful for on Like a Crime podcast often when
Speaker 1: I say about the benefits of people being taught self defense,
Speaker 1: whether it's boxing or whatever stuff, it gives you the
Speaker 1: confidence to stand up for yourself. Yeah, and maybe that's
Speaker 1: what it proves yourself.
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what it is.
Speaker 1: I think it's a good, good thing. So I do
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. And even in policing, the fact
Speaker 1: that I could look after myself at helped, Like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I could back it up if I needed to back
Speaker 1: back it up.
Speaker 2: And I think for me growing up, the hardest thing
Speaker 2: was I didn't learn to read and write in my
Speaker 2: thirties when I went to night I was dyslexic, right,
Speaker 2: But but that wasn't that wasn't a thing when I
Speaker 2: was a kid, was diagnosed. It wasn't like it just
Speaker 2: dyslexily wasn't a thing I was. I was slow, right,
Speaker 2: and always always used to be well, this is one
Speaker 2: of those things. I was never in any way uncomfortable
Speaker 2: about being the same sex attracted and knowing that as
Speaker 2: I was going up, But I was always incredibly shameful
Speaker 2: of of not being able to read and right, I
Speaker 2: was that kid. I got suspended loads of times. But
Speaker 2: I was that kid that the teacher. And this is
Speaker 2: when we used to read out of books get up
Speaker 2: and read. I'd make it about something else. I kick
Speaker 2: the table over, storm out, or just throw a tantrum,
Speaker 2: get sit outside. And I kind of like used to
Speaker 2: usual to be really ashamed of not being able to
Speaker 2: read right, like really shade. I repeated school a couple
Speaker 2: like classes years, a couple of times, and that was
Speaker 2: always really embarrassing for me as well, that I.
Speaker 1: Was years you were hiding it by you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't talk about I was always
Speaker 2: in the special class, but you know that that was
Speaker 2: always like so embarrassing. It was like really, And then
Speaker 2: they say, there's that one teacher in your life. I
Speaker 2: like to mention this because if I really did change
Speaker 2: my life, I went right through school not being under it.
Speaker 2: I was always pretty good with numbers, but so maths
Speaker 2: and science comp but I could never read write. Then
Speaker 2: when when I retired from footage and I wanted to
Speaker 2: get back into acting, not get back into acting, I
Speaker 2: just wanted to do some maybe do some community stuff
Speaker 2: or some like community theater. Because the other thing about
Speaker 2: being in the ensemble and that growing up, I could
Speaker 2: never I never got any leads in that because I
Speaker 2: couldn't read. I couldn't do I could do that like
Speaker 2: the chorus stuff or anything, but read the light like
Speaker 2: and that was always really embarrassing for me. Anyway. So
Speaker 2: when I retired, my car had broken down, this true story.
Speaker 2: My car had broken down just up the road from
Speaker 2: Nider and I was walking by and this is now
Speaker 2: I'm probably about thirty four. Yeah, I was walking by
Speaker 2: nighter on an Zach Parade and Kensington and Kingsford, and
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, I just duck in there Nighters see
Speaker 2: if there's someone in there might be able to help
Speaker 2: me do some like get back into some sort of
Speaker 2: community theater, if they know someone blah blah blah. So
Speaker 2: I went in there and I was you know, went
Speaker 2: to the front desk and asked, and they buzzed Kevin Jackson.
Speaker 2: Kevin was the one of the acting teachers there. He
Speaker 2: changed my life. Was like, now Kevin knew me. Kevin
Speaker 2: was a gay man as well, but Kevin knew of
Speaker 2: my story even though he wasn't a football person. I
Speaker 2: didn't know Kevin up until that point anyway, and I
Speaker 2: said him about getting back in the community service. He said, oh,
Speaker 2: come on, we'll do a cold bread and say how
Speaker 2: you're going, and we'll see where he had. If you're
Speaker 2: only good, you know, we might be able to help you.
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. So he took me in, you know,
Speaker 2: he took me in this room and he gave me this,
Speaker 2: this piece to read out. And he could tell as
Speaker 2: he gave you men, I just like that the heat
Speaker 2: the hot head thing you get and like I just
Speaker 2: read it like ah, man, I just and he looked.
Speaker 2: He said are you okay? And I just like, ah,
Speaker 2: I just I can't read. I'm sorry. And he said
Speaker 2: have dyslexia. And I had heard of that, but no not,
Speaker 2: I'd never he said. I said, I can't read and write.
Speaker 2: He said that's yeah. He said that's okay, he said,
Speaker 2: he said, so you can't read you He says, what
Speaker 2: we'll do is this. This changed my life. He said,
Speaker 2: what we'll do is we'll take the piece I want
Speaker 2: your learn. You go home and just listen to it.
Speaker 2: Learn it open when you're ready to come back, and
Speaker 2: we'll see you get That doesn't sound like much, right,
Speaker 2: change my life, make like it was the first time
Speaker 2: that he just seemed to not care, like he.
Speaker 1: Really so that dropped all your embarrassment.
Speaker 2: I mean, I was still really uncomfortable, right, but it
Speaker 2: was just like this, this whole daorting really was that
Speaker 2: easy to move on from this, Like it was one
Speaker 2: of those things in my head. I'm just like I
Speaker 2: can't believe, like it really really frustrated him. Like I
Speaker 2: was just like, I have spent so much time agonizing
Speaker 2: over not being able to writ and this guy just
Speaker 2: like at first I was a bit angry, and I'm
Speaker 2: just like, it's more important than that I can't read,
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. He was just like, it's nothing,
Speaker 2: nothing around it. And then you know, I learned the
Speaker 2: police went back in and he's he trained me for
Speaker 2: about six months, and then at the end of the
Speaker 2: six months, he said, what do you do the audition for,
Speaker 2: you know, for the club going for the three year course,
Speaker 2: And I said, I'm a bit old, and he was like, mate,
Speaker 2: if you're old, if you're old enough, if you're good enough,
Speaker 2: you're old enough. That works both ways, right, he said,
Speaker 2: it works both ways. So I didn't and I didn't,
Speaker 2: and for the first six months a night. I didn't
Speaker 2: tell anyone that I couldn't well, we told a couple
Speaker 2: of teachers that I couldn't read and write, and he
Speaker 2: would help me record stuff and that, and then then
Speaker 2: we learned phonetics, which is another form of language. I
Speaker 2: like writing and that that's kind of phonetics is what
Speaker 2: saved me. I mean, I I right now like I'm
Speaker 2: no Shakespeare, and I spoke about it before, but I
Speaker 2: can read and write. I can like I can read
Speaker 2: and write. Like I said, I'm no Shakespeare. But just
Speaker 2: that one moment and like changed my life. It's just
Speaker 2: almost like I remember a bit angry and the first
Speaker 2: time he says, oh, do you have disc That's not
Speaker 2: why I feel like, I say, what are you talking about?
Speaker 2: But this has destroyed my life like that when you
Speaker 2: talk about this is nothing. So it's just one yeah,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's just one of those moments. It just
Speaker 2: and it kind of gave me this insight into other
Speaker 2: stuff as well, like.
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I think it's so important. And yeah, we're
Speaker 1: always talking the ways of reducing crime and different things.
Speaker 1: I've seen it so many times when I was in
Speaker 1: the cops with people that struggle and you know, you
Speaker 1: lashed out when you're in class and all that, Yeah,
Speaker 1: and carry on in the society. And I've seen blokes that, yeah,
Speaker 1: they're not bad people, but they're hiding something. Even in
Speaker 1: the interview room. You sign this statement and you push
Speaker 1: the way they'll say something just to and over the
Speaker 1: years you work out you could spot it. Someone's just
Speaker 1: hiding the fact that they can't can't read or write.
Speaker 1: And it's something that we really should stigmatized. Well I
Speaker 1: suppose we have in a way, but really help people,
Speaker 1: help people.
Speaker 2: My partner Dan, he's he now works for the Education department,
Speaker 2: but he's a school teacher. Yeah, and we've been been
Speaker 2: toga in only twenty years. But the other good thing
Speaker 2: is he teaches cater year six, so he's been great
Speaker 2: for me as well. Like the whole reading and writing
Speaker 2: and almost learning to read and write in your forties
Speaker 2: and fifties, it's been wonderful.
Speaker 1: It would have been the world.
Speaker 2: It's like this, I don't know how to explain this.
Speaker 2: Gas It's like this whole world got opened up to
Speaker 2: me like that, this whole world that I've been like
Speaker 2: moving alongside of, but I've never been able to step
Speaker 2: into it reading books and just like sounds like it
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like much, right, but like reading books was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I've missed out on this whole thing.
Speaker 2: It's like this whole other world of experience. It was incredible. Wow.
Speaker 1: Okay, So your childhood, when did you realize football was
Speaker 1: going to be your career. At what point in time
Speaker 1: did you think did you have any aspirations to work
Speaker 1: in I want to do this, I want to do.
Speaker 2: That, sparky by trade electrician.
Speaker 1: Right, So.
Speaker 2: I left in year ten, got a job as a sparky,
Speaker 2: and I just thought that that would be that would
Speaker 2: be it for me. I mean, like I said, my
Speaker 2: education was never really valued in my family. My my
Speaker 2: my two sisters were always going to be cleaners or secretaries,
Speaker 2: and my brother and I were either going to be
Speaker 2: like truckies or traders. That was, there was no real
Speaker 2: value education with my mum and dad because my mom
Speaker 2: was a cleaner mast of light. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah,
Speaker 2: and my dad was like a project major process worker. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So footy was And don't forget you're now talking at
Speaker 2: a time when this is like you know, the early
Speaker 2: eighties and that like players were on thirty and forty grand.
Speaker 2: That was big money, right.
Speaker 1: A lot of them were still working.
Speaker 2: We used to train at house. We used to train
Speaker 2: at like four thirty, so everyone could get home from
Speaker 2: work and then go to training. That was a real thing.
Speaker 2: Like that was like, you know, like that was just
Speaker 2: the way. It was more in your day job than
Speaker 2: you would playing footage. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of
Speaker 2: interesting that things kind of panned out that way for me.
Speaker 2: And then when I was about I suppose I was
Speaker 2: about eight A, nine A and I was you know,
Speaker 2: I was I was playing for mascot at the time.
Speaker 2: I was pretty good at I had a bit of
Speaker 2: a sliding doors moment too, because I was going to
Speaker 2: go and like I did what Boxing was a bit
Speaker 2: of a thing for me as well. I was just
Speaker 2: footy kind of happened before boxing, if that makes sense.
Speaker 1: The opportunity.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I didn't really want to I'm going to
Speaker 2: be honest. I wanted to step away from from from
Speaker 2: rugby league. I didn't really want to play sports and
Speaker 2: that if I was going to make those because I
Speaker 2: was always the only thing I was worried about being
Speaker 2: same sex attractive is I didn't think they I thought
Speaker 2: they were like water and oil, they could never wait.
Speaker 1: The culture of the league at that time definitely homophobic.
Speaker 1: Just it's much image and it's not the type of
Speaker 1: thing that you would feel like that would be readily accepted.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I absolutely felt that's a good way of explaining.
Speaker 2: I absolutely felt that. I remember I was the best
Speaker 2: seven A A A and I said to my dad
Speaker 2: that I was going to like stop playing footy for
Speaker 2: that reason. Like, you know, I just I wasn't out
Speaker 2: to my parents at this time, right, But I'd already
Speaker 2: when I say I wasn't out, but I'd already been
Speaker 2: on the scene. And you know, I I'd already been
Speaker 2: out you know, the Oxford Street like it wasn't and
Speaker 2: I was kind of out privately, if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I was comfortable to myself. I mean, I even I
Speaker 2: used to have a Grand Corolla station wagon. It was
Speaker 2: an old work van. In the back of the van,
Speaker 2: I used to have these aren't going to sound like
Speaker 2: a tickhead now.
Speaker 1: We've heard a lot on this.
Speaker 2: I used to have these clothes in the back of
Speaker 2: my station wagon. It was like old military jackets. And
Speaker 2: I would go out drive around the corner and get
Speaker 2: changed into these fat like and then then go to
Speaker 2: the Exchange and down Oxford Street and patches and like
Speaker 2: in in a flashy, flashy year that whatever that you know,
Speaker 2: that that that era was with the big hair and
Speaker 2: that sorte of thing. And then when I come home,
Speaker 2: I get changed again before I went and put put
Speaker 2: them in the back of it.
Speaker 1: That to put stress on you, like yeah, but it
Speaker 1: was also fun.
Speaker 2: The first time I went out in Oxford Street, I
Speaker 2: was about sixteen. I found I say this all the time.
Speaker 2: I went to a place called float Flows Palace. I
Speaker 2: just got the bus in the three ninety six, and
Speaker 2: there was this whole other world that opened up to me,
Speaker 2: like I felt like I had a crush on the barman.
Speaker 2: And then I left that place and I walked down
Speaker 2: the road to the Exchange Hotel, and for anyone of
Speaker 2: our generation, they would know the Exchange and that as
Speaker 2: soon as I walked through those doors, I was like,
Speaker 2: oh my god, I found my people. This is this
Speaker 2: is where I belonged. It was that whole eighties punk
Speaker 2: rock slash, you know.
Speaker 1: But then you go from that environment, then you're back
Speaker 1: in the football culture. It must have been.
Speaker 2: It was yeah, it was. It was black and like
Speaker 2: it was very different. Yeah, but I do just and
Speaker 2: I used to live for Friday and Saturday nights. It
Speaker 2: was anyway, So I was, I say, like, and I
Speaker 2: was at that stage, you know, I just said, I
Speaker 2: just said the dad, I don't know, I'm not going
Speaker 2: to play anymore. And my dad was a boy and
Speaker 2: my dad, my mum and dad who really supported me,
Speaker 2: like taking me to My dad always was always the
Speaker 2: manager or something of the young teams. I was playing
Speaker 2: like a lot of parents are not invested. My dads
Speaker 2: to love it too, and I was, you know, I
Speaker 2: was playing good football as a young boat. And it
Speaker 2: happens like and I I was going, I'm going to
Speaker 2: step away. He said you can't. Boy, you know there's
Speaker 2: a big chance. And so I promised my dad, I'll
Speaker 2: give it one more year. And I got graded that year.
Speaker 2: You know, like if my dad hadn't a like kind
Speaker 2: of twisted mom and like walked away, I would have
Speaker 2: definitely walked away, like because I didn't think I just
Speaker 2: because I knew I was gay, like I just like
Speaker 2: and I knew I like I had tried to date
Speaker 2: girls and tried to do with that like that was
Speaker 2: was not going to work for me, you know, I was,
Speaker 2: and I knew the time was going to come that
Speaker 2: I was going to have to tell my parents and
Speaker 2: and I just didn't think that, Yeah, you speak earlier
Speaker 2: about the conflict that I that I saw that there's
Speaker 2: two wells kind of clashing or whatever. You know, I
Speaker 2: just didn't I didn't.
Speaker 1: Think they could could you could you could juggle it?
Speaker 1: Question when when did you come out to your parents?
Speaker 1: When did they find?
Speaker 2: What about twenty two? And like like I came out
Speaker 2: in like just an awful way as well. I mean
Speaker 2: there are good you know, there are good ways to
Speaker 2: come out, and there were ways that aren't so good.
Speaker 2: And in saying what I'm about to say that there
Speaker 2: was there are one hundred thousands of stories much more
Speaker 2: inspirational than mine, But there are thousands of stories much
Speaker 2: more tragic, mate, and like the consequential the mine as well,
Speaker 2: you know, like I just want to make I came
Speaker 2: and my mum used to work at Connie as like
Speaker 2: as a cleaner. This is how I came out. So
Speaker 2: it was nineteen eighty seven and I was having a
Speaker 2: really good year as its house. Actually I'm giving myself
Speaker 2: a pat on the back. I got proper the year
Speaker 2: that year for the daim Yeah, okay, it was my
Speaker 2: second year in in the in the top rode. Anyway,
Speaker 2: my mum was working at Quotas and these these two boys.
Speaker 2: My mom's at lunch and my mum's having a sandwiches
Speaker 2: or whatever, and that just opposite. Like we are now
Speaker 2: two boys reading a newspapers. Now boys just been boys
Speaker 2: with banter and just sledging and that type of thing.
Speaker 2: And then not realizing that the article they were reading
Speaker 2: was about me and not read realizing that, you know,
Speaker 2: the mother of that person was.
Speaker 1: My mom's incomplete is.
Speaker 2: In complete earshot. And then you know, I had been
Speaker 2: going out to Oxford Street, been doing that since I
Speaker 2: was sixteen, and I had you know, I had partners
Speaker 2: at that by that stage. And I'll just use a
Speaker 2: language that was used so you can understand, and I
Speaker 2: called this loose language and the consequences and the effects
Speaker 2: that loose language can have and the devastating effects it
Speaker 2: can have.
Speaker 1: Money.
Speaker 2: So these two boys are reading a little bit uncomfortable
Speaker 2: with These two boys are reading that article. Mum said,
Speaker 2: here reading your sandwiches, and one boy says to the
Speaker 2: other boy, that's saying Roberts, he got caught sucking a
Speaker 2: guy off at Oxford Street. Right, So just to be clear,
Speaker 2: that wasn't true. You were clear of that. I didn't
Speaker 2: get caught, No, no, but that wasn't true. It's just
Speaker 2: two boys bantering. But you can imagine the effects I
Speaker 2: had on my mum, right, she was and my mum
Speaker 2: by that stage, people were like I had a hot
Speaker 2: people hecklers and that at the foot would scream stuff
Speaker 2: out and it was it was definitely out there. My
Speaker 2: mom had to go home. She was she's not well.
Speaker 2: I got a phone call off my dad later that night, and,
Speaker 2: like I said, this is a pretty ordinary story for
Speaker 2: gay people. They've heard these stories before, right, Like we've
Speaker 2: all heard very simple stories. Dad, you said, oh boy,
Speaker 2: you better come home and your mum heard something that work.
Speaker 2: We need to talk about it. I got home. You
Speaker 2: love this bit and I sit down. I walked into
Speaker 2: the house. It was like someone that died. My mom's
Speaker 2: bawling her eyes and my dad sits in front of
Speaker 2: me and I sit down and I was like that, dad,
Speaker 2: what's happened? And he mate, your mum's heard something at work.
Speaker 2: We just want to hear you say that you're not gay,
Speaker 2: and that'll be good enough for us. So you know,
Speaker 2: like no, there was the way he worded it. So
Speaker 2: we spoke about it after like and I'm like, oh no,
Speaker 2: that I'm gay, and my mom went crazy right like
Speaker 2: she just but uh, this is a very familiar story
Speaker 2: for for gaying. They would have heard these stories before.
Speaker 2: But my dad is real. Actually was the best. He
Speaker 2: stood there and like he was just staring at me,
Speaker 2: and I'm just like looking at him. He's like, but
Speaker 2: you play front row? He was like, you play front row?
Speaker 2: Like he was stuck on that. Like he said about
Speaker 2: three or four times, like your front rower. Like he
Speaker 2: kept saying this thing about the front row. And I'm
Speaker 2: just like so like he said, like it like it
Speaker 2: didn't compute, you know anyway. I didn't didn't. I didn't
Speaker 2: didn't go down. Well, I looked like I left the
Speaker 2: heir we did. Uh, you know that they they weren't happy,
Speaker 2: but they said stuff that like you know like okay,
Speaker 2: well and my uncle, my dad's uncle Jack was gay. Uh,
Speaker 2: but it was one of those things the whole family
Speaker 2: denied and Uncle Jack and uncle John. He's his special friend.
Speaker 2: Like we're always invited, but no one your uncle dad
Speaker 2: Jack was gay. They like Luis.
Speaker 1: I think families have got everyone's got.
Speaker 2: Jack, right, everyone's got every family's got an uncle Jack.
Speaker 2: I just said, Dad, your uncle Jack nor he was?
Speaker 2: I said, Dad, come on, man like anyway. But that
Speaker 2: was years later. But yeah, like my dad says something
Speaker 2: like you know and but at that stage I was
Speaker 2: I think my partner's name was Shane. Uh. And he said, oh,
Speaker 2: well you know you told them that Shane and anyway,
Speaker 2: he just so you know you can't come around. I said, well,
Speaker 2: if Shane can't come around, Dad, I'm not coming around
Speaker 2: until you're get in your head. That was That was
Speaker 2: why Dad, until you that was the line in the
Speaker 2: sand his dad, do you get in your head? This
Speaker 2: is who this is the way it's going to be.
Speaker 2: I'm not coming We didn't. We didn't speak for no reusement.
Speaker 2: It's just but it's funny my dad's reaction. You just
Speaker 2: stuck on that on that reway. You're front right, but
Speaker 2: you play front right. Yeah.
Speaker 1: Well, I think and as you said, a lot of
Speaker 1: families have got stories. I'll check with my sister from
Speaker 1: allowed to tell this story. We might have to have
Speaker 1: to edit it. But she's gay and she was going
Speaker 1: to come out and my parents were having Christmas up
Speaker 1: up the coast and I wasn't going. I had something
Speaker 1: else on that. And my sister said, I'm coming out
Speaker 1: to my mum and dad. I said, I'm up there.
Speaker 1: This is going to be interesting.
Speaker 2: It's nice. She says, she was out to you. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that's that's that already tells me, mate, that's that's a
Speaker 2: that's a nice relationship between you.
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it was a good relationship. So we're at
Speaker 1: the Christmas everyone's sitting around for the Christmas dinner or
Speaker 1: whatever it was, and Michelle comes out and my parents
Speaker 1: are saying, I think her friend is they're just good friends.
Speaker 1: And I'm going, are you sure? Mom? And Dad? I
Speaker 1: know it's coming, so I'm sort of frowing fuel on
Speaker 1: the and then she's come out and Dad's there, okay, well,
Speaker 1: and he's sort of fairly easy with it. Mum was
Speaker 1: fine with it, but she all of a sudden decides
Speaker 1: she had to pick up all the plates off the
Speaker 1: off the table, and she's busy doing the doing the
Speaker 1: washing up, but the next day was the best bit.
Speaker 1: Mum was so rattled by it. She's telling people, Ah,
Speaker 1: my daughter came out as Lebanese. She's so rattles you
Speaker 1: couldn't even say lesbian. She's saying Lebanese. So now we've
Speaker 1: declared that mum's got a Lebanese daughter because she was
Speaker 1: telling people just how rattle sweet. But do you think
Speaker 1: I think part of it is Yeah, I could be wrong,
Speaker 1: and everyone everyone's different, but I always think it's part
Speaker 1: as a parent, you want your kid's life to be easy.
Speaker 1: And I'm sure part of the reaction from your dad
Speaker 1: would be knowing the world and your mum knowing the
Speaker 1: world that your life's going to be that little bit harder.
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, you know that they do think it was
Speaker 2: going to be difficult though, and they were you know.
Speaker 2: The other thing is they were worried about what people
Speaker 2: would think that make, you know, and there was that
Speaker 2: still a thing that gay men a week becau there
Speaker 2: was all that. I mean, I I'm part of an
Speaker 2: education program called Think About It and we we it's
Speaker 2: theater sports stuff. One of the a couple of the
Speaker 2: scenes that I'm involved in. Uh, we go out to
Speaker 2: corporations and if the corporations, and we started off during
Speaker 2: the NRL. That's how it started on all the teams,
Speaker 2: and we touch on subjects. We do scenes where around misogyny,
Speaker 2: violence against women, homophobia, drugs in sport and with the corporations,
Speaker 2: you know again all those things about discrimination, and we
Speaker 2: get a couple of people up involved from the audience
Speaker 2: and then and then we talk about it and how
Speaker 2: best it could have navigated. Uh, And I tell I
Speaker 2: kind of tell that story about my coming out and
Speaker 2: the way that we have a couple of saying around
Speaker 2: homophobia and the best way approaches. And I told my
Speaker 2: mom that, well, I've been doing that think about stuff
Speaker 2: now for well over ten years. I told my mom
Speaker 2: just recently, only a couple of months ago, that I
Speaker 2: do that scene and I talk about I mentioned occasionally
Speaker 2: mentioned about the situation with her at lunch and that
Speaker 2: and how it all came to her head and my
Speaker 2: mom found out. And I kind of make it a
Speaker 2: bit jovial and like when I tell the corporations and
Speaker 2: the teams, and I make it a bit funny because
Speaker 2: I find it easier if you can take fund at yourself.
Speaker 2: It lets people in. I tell my mom, That's how
Speaker 2: I do it. My mom. Mum's eighty five. She broke
Speaker 2: down and started crying like she's because she remembers the
Speaker 2: way she acted and how and how catastrophic it was
Speaker 2: for her. And I felt terrible like that I hadn't
Speaker 2: spoken to her about about and she's still dealing with that.
Speaker 2: And that's what I was saying about that the power
Speaker 2: that you know that words have and symbols have. It
Speaker 2: was just one of those like real grounding moments from them,
Speaker 2: like your mom, you're still dealing like my mom is
Speaker 2: one hundred. My mom's grace ally of all the time
Speaker 2: for gay people now, right. But she says, yeah, she
Speaker 2: still feels how her initial react and what she thought
Speaker 2: about me, and that how bad it makes her.
Speaker 1: How the impact on you. I can understand.
Speaker 2: Words, you know, like LS language has a damaging though.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. Your football career, so you started playing
Speaker 1: playing with South's you spent four years there. Your football
Speaker 1: career is quite incredible. You've played for I've just got
Speaker 1: some of the stats here. You've played for Australia nine times,
Speaker 1: nine times.
Speaker 2: As a dozen times. I suppose I don't even know
Speaker 2: the number is.
Speaker 1: Two hundred and thirteen first grade games South Sydney and
Speaker 1: Manly and Wigan and North Queensland. You played state of Origin.
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of things here. By the age
Speaker 1: of twenty one, Jack Gibson, who's sort of renowned as
Speaker 1: the Guru of rugby league, described you as the best
Speaker 1: front brower in the game, and at one point in
Speaker 1: time you're the highest for profile player in the game
Speaker 1: and the highest paid player in the game.
Speaker 2: That's a long time ago, and that's when that's you're
Speaker 2: talking about now. When I went to man Like, I
Speaker 2: got twenty grand a year, yeah, and that was like
Speaker 2: that was that was when fifty grand was huge money.
Speaker 1: Yea.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was fighttering, Yeah, but.
Speaker 1: Johnny Johnny gave me an insight, took.
Speaker 2: Me over the man. He really took me under his
Speaker 2: wing mate. He was. He was such a champion mate.
Speaker 1: And George Piggins didn't talk to him for a week. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but in the end he'd be Gradually he.
Speaker 2: Was a champion man. You know, I played I went
Speaker 2: to Wigand too. That was at the end of eighty six.
Speaker 2: That was great, that was wonderful. That's why I teamed
Speaker 2: up with I met Graham Lowe. I'm still best friends
Speaker 2: with Lowie.
Speaker 1: Now from New Zealand.
Speaker 2: The whole Weigand experience was quite quite extraordinary. Ters like
Speaker 2: that was an eighty six we played against the Kangaroos. Yeah,
Speaker 2: that was probably one of my best games I think
Speaker 2: I'd ever played against the Kangaroos. Again, it was one
Speaker 2: of those moments for me where I just started to
Speaker 2: find myself, find my ability and have confidence in myself. Yeah. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I've been I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate.
Speaker 1: What are you Your teammates, your teammates at South Ye
Speaker 1: Souse You hadn't come out publicly at that point in time,
Speaker 1: but I think you described as the world's best.
Speaker 2: Or worst worst kept secret secret. Yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 2: Souse is. I don't know how to explain it. I
Speaker 2: mean I remember George Pickers took me aside at training
Speaker 2: one day, this has been about eighty seven and just
Speaker 2: mentioned it to me. He said, oh, there's a lot
Speaker 2: of stories about you. He was he was, and he
Speaker 2: was doing it solely to protect me, right, like you know,
Speaker 2: he was from that generation. He's like, you know, it's
Speaker 2: not a good look for you. Whatever. You know, you've
Speaker 2: been seeing and he didn't. He wasn't asking me if
Speaker 2: I okay. He just knew I'd been going out doors
Speaker 2: for straight and I just said, George, I'm playing good
Speaker 2: foot mate, like this is about it would have been
Speaker 2: about eighty seven. I said, I'm playing pretty good footy.
Speaker 2: I know. You said yeah, just what I'm here, you know,
Speaker 2: and I and he was like, yeah, you're right mate,
Speaker 2: Like he was really like that, like it's always like
Speaker 2: you had that you know what, you're right you're playing
Speaker 2: And what I mean is like he's like, that's why
Speaker 2: you're playing good footy. Keep you on that, like it
Speaker 2: was one of those. It was one of those moments
Speaker 2: he's just like like I was really comfortable with like
Speaker 2: that's what I mean. I was just like I think
Speaker 2: it kind of He's like, oh no, he's right, he's
Speaker 2: playing good footy. He's obviously like whatever you're doing, he
Speaker 2: must be doing it right. You get what I'm saying.
Speaker 2: It was like he wasn't like at first where he
Speaker 2: was like you he probably shouldn't be done. I just jewish,
Speaker 2: but I'm playing good foot mat like like I'm happy,
Speaker 2: and he was like you know what. It was one
Speaker 2: of those and one of those learning moments for me too.
Speaker 2: You know. I was just like because because yeah, I was,
Speaker 2: I was always uncomfortable with those two worlds clash, like yeah,
Speaker 2: it wasn't. And then in eighty nine and ninety when
Speaker 2: I left the house together manly, I mean I was
Speaker 2: quite out on the scene, like like I used to
Speaker 2: take partners to funk like it was it's hard to explain.
Speaker 1: It was.
Speaker 2: It was like and journals I spoke in the journeys
Speaker 2: always wanted to ask me. But but and they've always
Speaker 2: said that they wanted to respect that it was my
Speaker 2: privacy as well, which is kind of nice, right, Yeah,
Speaker 2: But it.
Speaker 1: Would have been tough in that environment with that just
Speaker 1: hovering around, because you know, we talk about you had
Speaker 1: a lot of yappy players back then, but like I
Speaker 1: could imagine on the on the football field or not
Speaker 1: the players of people in the grads, yea.
Speaker 2: And that's the other thing, but that's that was the
Speaker 2: one thing you did you to cut me, is like
Speaker 2: you can't you know, I couldn't protect people I cared
Speaker 2: for from that, like my mom and dad and family
Speaker 2: and friends, and when they used to have to listen
Speaker 2: to that stuff, and you know, like, I love them,
Speaker 2: but you can't protect them from that. Just like in
Speaker 2: eight seven when I told you know, when I came
Speaker 2: out my dad we spoke about it. So I can't
Speaker 2: protect you against that, Like, because how's it going to
Speaker 2: how's it going to affect us? I'm like, I don't know, mam,
Speaker 2: but I can't protect you against that.
Speaker 1: And that that must have hurt you because you can
Speaker 1: look after yourself.
Speaker 2: But that's everyone who's had anyone who's different, has any
Speaker 2: sort of like that. That is definitely that is anyone
Speaker 2: who's dealing with any sort of identity. I mean they're
Speaker 2: dealing with themselves, they're also dealing with it on behalf
Speaker 2: of people they care about.
Speaker 1: You Get what I'm saying is, yeah, so they're being
Speaker 1: dragged into into your your world as well. So with
Speaker 1: with Souse when you went to when you went to Manly,
Speaker 1: is that when you you came out? Well, what I
Speaker 1: was going to do and why did you? Well?
Speaker 2: I was one of the reasons. It's also just the
Speaker 2: money I left house for. I left because I was
Speaker 2: going to When I was going to Manly, I knew
Speaker 2: Graham Lowe was going to be there as well. Low
Speaker 2: He didn't know I was going, but I a really
Speaker 2: good friendship with him. I was going to come out
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety, like when I left him, come out publicly.
Speaker 2: But I'd always had this thing as a young person
Speaker 2: and with my mom and dad that I shouldn't have
Speaker 2: to come out, Like like I said to my mom
Speaker 2: and dad, whoever I bring home should be good enough
Speaker 2: for you. Like if I say, mom and Dad, this
Speaker 2: is my partner, that should be enough, Like I've always
Speaker 2: been like I was always like that, but I've seen
Speaker 2: I since that visibility is really important as well, Like
Speaker 2: you have to accept that, like I used to be
Speaker 2: like that, Like it doesn't matter who I bring home. Yeah,
Speaker 2: if this is my partner, this is my partner regardless,
Speaker 2: like going to the footy stuff, I shouldn't have to
Speaker 2: explain explain, like I said to George. But I'm happy mate,
Speaker 2: like and I do regret that. So but I kind
Speaker 2: of made my mind up in eighty nine and in
Speaker 2: eighty nine early ninety that I was going to come
Speaker 2: out publicly and just but then over in England and
Speaker 2: justin fashion you Premier League. Yeah, he was the first
Speaker 2: man who he came out in ninety ninety as a
Speaker 2: gay man, the first man in professional team sport internationally,
Speaker 2: and he was brutalized by the English press Fleet Street.
Speaker 2: That was terrible, mate, and the support that this supporter's
Speaker 2: base were awful to him. And this is back in
Speaker 2: the time before as I put to my mobile phone,
Speaker 2: before phones, like if you follow the story, you had
Speaker 2: to read it in the newspaper, watch it on TV,
Speaker 2: you listen to it on the radio. He was treated
Speaker 2: terribly by the supporters of the game, and in fairness
Speaker 2: looking back now, and he didn't handle it very well.
Speaker 2: I thank himself and a lot of the stories that
Speaker 2: were released, I thought he could have made the situation
Speaker 2: easier for himself. He came out in nineteen ninety, retired
Speaker 2: in ninety four. That's a year I came out and
Speaker 2: died of suicide ninety eight. That is such a familiar
Speaker 2: gay story. Regardless of it, that is such a familiar
Speaker 2: gay story, and anyone and people listening who are particularly
Speaker 2: of my era, would I would understand that it is
Speaker 2: such that that's not shocking. It is shocking, but it's
Speaker 2: not shocking. I've heard that story multiple times from different people,
Speaker 2: you know, So yeah, that's yeah, and then when when
Speaker 2: I saw the way that he was being treated, I
Speaker 2: was like, I don't think that my parents would. It
Speaker 2: wasn't about me. I was just like I was worried
Speaker 2: about my parents and my family, like having to deal
Speaker 2: with all that stuff, you know.
Speaker 1: And would I would imagine was there a part of
Speaker 1: you that's going, well, whose business is it? Anyway?
Speaker 2: That's what I mean, That's how I was.
Speaker 1: That's how I call a press conference and go.
Speaker 2: That's what That's what I mean, Like you just have
Speaker 2: to accept, like why am I? But but I did
Speaker 2: realize like visibility, and that's that is my one regret
Speaker 2: that I was that that was ever in the closet,
Speaker 2: if that makes sense. I wish I'd been more much
Speaker 2: more public right from the star, right from the start,
Speaker 2: but I kind of came to lot. But I was
Speaker 2: the thing was I was always worried about my parents
Speaker 2: like that because they were so not handling me being gay.
Speaker 2: You know, it's just so embarrassing and uncomfortable for them.
Speaker 1: But it's understanding not from the parents, but from your
Speaker 1: point of view that you want to try and protect them.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, but yeah.
Speaker 1: I can understand that it's almost like, well, whose business is it?
Speaker 1: The Yeah, that was my that.
Speaker 2: Was my the way I took it. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 2: but then in ninety four, I was just like I
Speaker 2: just had enough. I just we were going away in
Speaker 2: the Kangaroo tour and I just thought, I'm going to
Speaker 2: go over there as a gate like as a gay person.
Speaker 2: I'm not going to like like, I'm just going to
Speaker 2: speak openly about it. A shame my partner like he
Speaker 2: like a lot of the players wives and partners go
Speaker 2: over and they stay in hotels somewhere else with Boomberys
Speaker 2: Shane came over and was staying in the burnbut the
Speaker 2: oven was coming to games and that Terry Terry Hill
Speaker 2: was my roomy and Terry and I was gay, and
Speaker 2: like he did know I was gay. There was by
Speaker 2: this stage a whole load of people knew I was gay.
Speaker 2: I was quite open about it, but just I hadn't
Speaker 2: come out officially to the public that if that makes sense.
Speaker 2: I was always pushing back against I was like, because
Speaker 2: I was leading this gay life, right, like everyone knew
Speaker 2: this is like shame was my then partner. Everyone knew
Speaker 2: shame was my page.
Speaker 1: Yeah, not hiding it, but you're not making a public.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just but but I did realize then it's like,
Speaker 2: you know, it was crazy.
Speaker 1: On that Kangaroo tour and from your from your book,
Speaker 1: I picked up that one of the managers or trainers
Speaker 1: or whatever made issue with the fact that Shane was
Speaker 1: having having.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the best story of all time, and it's
Speaker 2: the like, this was the most well, I think it
Speaker 2: is the most significant moment in my Ragbila League career
Speaker 2: as a human being. Yeah, like the change of direction
Speaker 2: we played I was having was we played the first
Speaker 2: Test at Wembley in front of one hundred thousand dollars
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people. We got we got beat by
Speaker 2: twelve men by the great Britain side, but they played
Speaker 2: out of their skins. But up to that point, my
Speaker 2: form as front row I had been I was like
Speaker 2: the form front right, Like my FHM was great. Like
Speaker 2: I mean I can say that quite modestly, like shaking
Speaker 2: my head, but my form was good. I didn't expect
Speaker 2: to get but I even had a good game in
Speaker 2: that in that test match, right, And I said, like,
Speaker 2: when you're away on two players, wives and partners aren't
Speaker 2: allowed to stay with you. In the hotel, they can
Speaker 2: come and visit and I have lunch and this, that
Speaker 2: and the other. That was always common practice, right, and
Speaker 2: there was plenty of players wives and girlfriends over and Shane.
Speaker 2: Shane was good friends with Terry Hill as well because
Speaker 2: it was because Bozo was coaching Manly at that time.
Speaker 2: My teram Terry. That's who Terry was playing for at
Speaker 2: the time. Shane and Terry were good friends as well. Anyway,
Speaker 2: after the first game, I love telling this story because
Speaker 2: it's it's just that the respect that that that I
Speaker 2: have for both this anyway, so you know, we played
Speaker 2: the first test match, got beat. I wasn't expecting to
Speaker 2: get to get dropped. And when you're a sports person,
Speaker 2: everything's about playing test footy and like playing it the elite, right,
Speaker 2: It's all that's what you're focused on. It's like, you know,
Speaker 2: like so and he gets in the way that like
Speaker 2: it's like it's it's catastrophic. On the Tuesday, Wednesday, after
Speaker 2: the test match, I get we get a phone call
Speaker 2: and Terry picks up the phone. This is back when
Speaker 2: we used to have like literal real phones, have room
Speaker 2: phones and he says, oh, bows, I'll put him on
Speaker 2: and he like he puts the like puts the phone
Speaker 2: out of and he starts slipping his throat like he's
Speaker 2: going to catch it, you know. I get the phone,
Speaker 2: I say bows and he says, robot made. I need
Speaker 2: you to come up and see me straight away. I'm like, oh, okay, Now,
Speaker 2: anyone who knows Bobby Fulton bozo like he's in a
Speaker 2: mortal right. He literally isn't a mall but he's just
Speaker 2: cool as a cucumber. Nothing gets under his skin. Mate,
Speaker 2: always everything that was always fine. I had a really
Speaker 2: good relationship with him. And my initial thought is a ship,
Speaker 2: is he going to cut me? You drop me? And
Speaker 2: like I said about earlier about the elite sports person,
Speaker 2: and that's all I was, and I'm justified. So he
Speaker 2: come and I played for animal skin anyway. So I
Speaker 2: go up and obviously is in the penhouse up to
Speaker 2: go up to the top level and we'll get out
Speaker 2: the walk out the left and walk to the door
Speaker 2: and the door his door is just ajar, you know,
Speaker 2: like six inches and I look in and then like this,
Speaker 2: Bobby Fulton cools the cucumber. He's pacing the room. Right,
Speaker 2: this is not like but this is not Bobby Fulton stuff.
Speaker 2: He's pacing and I felt like I was stood there
Speaker 2: for ages watching him patients and I'm sweating and what's
Speaker 2: going on? And i'mknock on the door and he said, Robie,
Speaker 2: come in, sit down, mate, sit down, and he starts
Speaker 2: pacing the room again, just like rubbing his beard. And
Speaker 2: by this stage now I'm thinking there's there's more going
Speaker 2: on here. There's something happened to my mom and dad
Speaker 2: or something. I'm thinking maybe there's some bad he's got.
Speaker 2: I said, just stop, what's what's happening? Just just tell
Speaker 2: me what's going on. This is not good. And he
Speaker 2: stops and he looks at and he just says, you
Speaker 2: gotta understand. This is the hardest conversation this man's ever
Speaker 2: had in his life. He looks at me, he says, Robert,
Speaker 2: you know what that in my day? I don't care. Mate,
Speaker 2: I'm like, what are you talking about it? He says,
Speaker 2: you and Shane, my god, thanks both, thank you, thank
Speaker 2: you for saying that. Mate. That's he said, mate. But
Speaker 2: he's not allowed to stay within the hotel. Mate, you
Speaker 2: know the rules web money. You've let me down. I said,
Speaker 2: he's not base he's staying at the B and B
Speaker 2: up the road. He just popped in every couple of days.
Speaker 2: Said he says, so someone's give me the wrong information
Speaker 2: that I said, yeah, he said, all right, crab like
Speaker 2: starts copying.
Speaker 3: He said, I knew you wouldn't let me down and
Speaker 3: said he's like, I knew you were three players. Said
Speaker 3: I don't know what I was carried on for like
Speaker 3: and it was like he did this whole like theatrical things,
Speaker 3: like he's doing cartwheels on this and I it was
Speaker 3: just one of those moments.
Speaker 2: I just like he stopped and I just said to
Speaker 2: him the bows, thank you mate, I mean, thank you mate.
Speaker 2: I can't tell you what that meant to me. He's like,
Speaker 2: all good mate, Yeah, no worries. That was but it
Speaker 2: was the first time in my life I felt It's
Speaker 2: hard to explain to someone. It was the first time
Speaker 2: in my life I felt validated. And this sounds a
Speaker 2: bit dicky and say as a gay man like who
Speaker 2: was a rugby league player and.
Speaker 1: Putting Bobby Fault in context, he is a legend.
Speaker 2: He was worried. That was the footing. He was my
Speaker 2: coach at Manly. I mean Shane used to be that
Speaker 2: the mascot, you know, the guy in the big an
Speaker 2: eagle soup with wings and like.
Speaker 1: Doing car I'm sure there was.
Speaker 2: Everyone was friendly with Shane, like Shane unfortunately passed away
Speaker 2: last year, had a heart attack, but we were best friends.
Speaker 2: We stayed very good friends. But it was just that moment, mate,
Speaker 2: I just like, like I remember like leaving that room
Speaker 2: ten foot tall man, just feeling like I'm just loving bows,
Speaker 2: just like feeling, oh, you get it, mate, you finally
Speaker 2: get it.
Speaker 1: Because it was always an uncomfortable.
Speaker 2: Situation for people to navigate you and I understood that,
Speaker 2: but it was just like I can't. I just I
Speaker 2: played in every test match like like he didn't drop
Speaker 2: me or you like, we ended up winning the series
Speaker 2: to one. We went over to France, I played a
Speaker 2: couple we played a couple of games and test test
Speaker 2: matches over there as well. But it was just wonderful, mate.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see how animated you are just thinking
Speaker 1: about it must have been just a real off way
Speaker 1: off the shoulders and like when when you had come
Speaker 1: out and how.
Speaker 2: Human I came back, like it really hit that, like
Speaker 2: because I because like BOS made it easy for me too,
Speaker 2: because he must have spoked, because I like, later on
Speaker 2: I spoke, I'm just going to be game mate, like
Speaker 2: like it was kind of weird having that conversation with
Speaker 2: Bobby Film. I'm just going to be game mate, Like
Speaker 2: it sounds like a weird thing to say. I just
Speaker 2: I just like anyway, he said, that's all good, Robbie,
Speaker 2: like he had a word with a couple of Janneys.
Speaker 2: He made it really, he made it really, he just
Speaker 2: just he made it. He made it happen, like not
Speaker 2: made it happen. But I told him that made I
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to This is what you gotta understand with me, mate,
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have to come out mate. Yeah, like this
Speaker 2: is like I feel like I'm almost betraying myself here.
Speaker 2: Like it's he kind of got it, like and I
Speaker 2: just just think about that moment. But it's like you
Speaker 2: understood it, mate, Like it's just I'm playing good footy.
Speaker 2: That was that George Piggins moment again, mate, Yeah, where
Speaker 2: George you know what I mean? Where George even realized, oh, yeah,
Speaker 2: you're playing good footy. This is all this is about, really,
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean? It was almost that
Speaker 2: juggle in his mind. It's just I've been very lucky.
Speaker 1: Like well, there's been some good people for you, like supporting,
Speaker 1: supporting people and Terry Hill and others that would talk about.
Speaker 1: But there was also discrimination within the team. And there
Speaker 1: was one again I reference your book, but an incident
Speaker 1: where one of the players I don't know on the
Speaker 1: training field, tempers fled and he said some derogatory comments
Speaker 1: along the lines that you would imagine, and you took
Speaker 1: him the tar after and the thing I like, how
Speaker 1: you took him the task that there's going to be
Speaker 1: consequences if you did that again. There's physical consequences. But
Speaker 1: wake up yourself. It's not just about the impact that
Speaker 1: has on me. It's on the young players and other.
Speaker 2: That's right, mate, Like it's like, you know, I lose language,
Speaker 2: like you can't do you can't do that like people.
Speaker 2: It's quite literally there were people like I don't want
Speaker 2: to get into all those bad stats and statistics made,
Speaker 2: but it's a real thing, mate, Like as again that's
Speaker 2: I said, like a gay person listening to my coming
Speaker 2: out story is so familiar. Listen to that, you know,
Speaker 2: justin fashion your story, it's such a familiar story. It's
Speaker 2: that's real stuff. Man. It's like you know, like it's
Speaker 2: like with the Pride Round with Manly like a couple
Speaker 2: of years ago, you know, with they like and I'm
Speaker 2: not going to sit here criticize any place that's not
Speaker 2: it's not for me.
Speaker 1: And just to explain that if listeners didn't understand what
Speaker 1: happened there and correct me if I'm wrong, that was
Speaker 1: going to be the Pride Round, and certain jerseys were
Speaker 1: made up with about colors or whatever it was. And
Speaker 1: there was a couple of players in the team that
Speaker 1: said they're not going to play.
Speaker 2: Six six of them set out for cultural reasons and
Speaker 2: religious reasons. Right now, how do I put this up?
Speaker 2: There would have been so many, so many young people
Speaker 2: in the regional areas who wouldn't have heard much news
Speaker 2: that that that week. But because those some of those
Speaker 2: younger people were dealing with their own identity and that
Speaker 2: they definitely would have heard that story. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 2: and like that. It's that's what I'm talking about. That's
Speaker 2: the consequences, you know. Like, and I often feel like
Speaker 2: I because I do a lot of advocacy working in
Speaker 2: around this space in that area. Man, when I talk
Speaker 2: when we talk about having these types of conversations. I
Speaker 2: always feel like for me or for my side or whatever,
Speaker 2: it's not even side, it's just my opinion is I
Speaker 2: feel like I need to be understanding. Just my starting
Speaker 2: point needs to be I need to be understanding of
Speaker 2: other people's potential misunderstanding. Okay, that's my starting point, and
Speaker 2: like you've got to have a conversation. Everything starts with
Speaker 2: a conversation. Yeah, I mean, but it's their statistics are
Speaker 2: still out there and they're still devastating, and you know
Speaker 2: I have lost uh yea, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I
Speaker 2: definitely have lost friends. Like I can't imagine what would
Speaker 2: be losing like a son or a daughter, or.
Speaker 1: The pain pain that causes because some you know, and
Speaker 1: you've there's a lot of other examples. I think you
Speaker 1: were signing signing an autograph the kids after a stay
Speaker 1: of origin Blake and some knuckleheads run up and punch
Speaker 1: in the back of the head and run off, and.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there was an incident at Saint George. Yeah,
Speaker 2: at halftime, go Rich and I think we were getting
Speaker 2: beaten at the time. At the time, we were a
Speaker 2: couple of points down and as we were walking off
Speaker 2: He just kind of reached over and said saying, I
Speaker 2: overreacted because I jumped. Yeah, and it's just ugly, you know,
Speaker 2: like it's just I get it, like you know, like
Speaker 2: you're talking about I never forget there was a state
Speaker 2: of origin, and like it's funny. I think it's funny.
Speaker 2: But just getting into the showers and one of the
Speaker 2: other players made it very obvious that he was uncomfortable
Speaker 2: with like, and I was just like, make day flatter yourself.
Speaker 2: Trust me, You're safe, you know, trust me. I couldn't
Speaker 2: be that fucking drunk, you know what I mean. You
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And that's what I mean about
Speaker 2: making it about God. You find the humor in it somewhere,
Speaker 2: because even he started laughing, just like.
Speaker 1: I know, I understand. And the irony of the situation
Speaker 1: you found yourself in. You were in a culture that
Speaker 1: would have been out of all the cultures you could
Speaker 1: find yourself in, that would have been one that really struggled.
Speaker 2: But also in the end, when people accepted an embrace,
Speaker 2: it brings the team closer together.
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean that you would have had people wanting, but.
Speaker 2: It just brings the team together to could you know
Speaker 2: Blake's like like Steve Menzies and Terry Hill and Jeff
Speaker 2: two like they were. They were so fantastic, embracing and
Speaker 2: jack girls like they were. It was wonderful. But it
Speaker 2: was I would say mostly a younger the generation younger
Speaker 2: than me, I felt saying to him, maybe because I
Speaker 2: was an older player, maybe you know, maybe I had
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what it was, but I did. I did
Speaker 2: feel it from a younger. Yeah, they it was. It
Speaker 2: was very interesting. Well, the other thing is I keep saying,
Speaker 2: is like, forget the whole gay thing. Like I'm going
Speaker 2: to sound like a dickhead now, but I was playing
Speaker 2: good footing, you know what I mean. That's that's that's
Speaker 2: what this was all about. Like I was playing good football,
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm about. George said, George.
Speaker 1: I don't know, like when, yeah, when that's all said
Speaker 1: and done, that that that was the issue. But look,
Speaker 1: even when even when you came out, there was people
Speaker 1: that wanted you to be on the soap box a
Speaker 1: whole time. And it's a personal thing, I would imagine,
Speaker 1: and some like gay journalists or whatever, why aren't you
Speaker 1: speaking out more? And you could sound like you couldn't win.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, yes, yes and no, I
Speaker 2: mean like yeah, like and I got to be honest,
Speaker 2: I still say like it I never felt. I don't
Speaker 2: know how like as I've gotten old, I've learned, you know,
Speaker 2: like I'm because I'm so grateful that I was born gay,
Speaker 2: Like you know, I've become a bit like a bit
Speaker 2: of a super power for me, like the fact that
Speaker 2: I'm just I don't even know what that means, but
Speaker 2: I just feel like it's so enough. It's so it's
Speaker 2: not my mum and dad. But now you know, when
Speaker 2: they learned to embrace it, they became better for it.
Speaker 2: You know, I said a bit earlier about people like
Speaker 2: Johnny Lewis, like you know, I'm a better person for
Speaker 2: knowing Johnny. You know, like that type of thing. You
Speaker 2: get what I mean, And that's what I meant about.
Speaker 2: You asked me what type of person I would hope
Speaker 2: that like people just get to look.
Speaker 1: Well, I think if you're you've walked that path, so
Speaker 1: you understand and the pain of discrimination or anything that
Speaker 1: where people are ostercized for the things, the damage that
Speaker 1: can be done.
Speaker 2: And the damage that is done. Man, I mean, you know,
Speaker 2: like there had been some situations have been really ugly. Well,
Speaker 2: you haven't touched on any of that stuff.
Speaker 1: We're going to touch on it in part two and
Speaker 1: what happened with young Aaron and the impact that had
Speaker 1: on you. But there was that at the time where
Speaker 1: you were coming out and you you were the like
Speaker 1: I'm saying from a member of the public, you were
Speaker 1: the you were the poster boy of rugby league. And
Speaker 1: then when you came out it was big news. Everyone
Speaker 1: everyone knew knew about it. But that was also when
Speaker 1: aids And.
Speaker 2: Then I've been blessed mate that I didn't pick up
Speaker 2: the HIV. Yes, like I had my first two partners
Speaker 2: both passed away with h But I've you know, I
Speaker 2: was quite promiscuous. That's not promiscuous. I was quite in
Speaker 2: the early eighties. It was on Oxford straight.
Speaker 1: But there was a lot of hate put on the
Speaker 1: Gaze because because of that, the misconception whether that's where
Speaker 1: the disease generated from or whatever, But it was all
Speaker 1: caught up in that time, the time and place. It
Speaker 1: was a.
Speaker 2: Difficult the whole bowling ball, the grim.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a hard time. And then
Speaker 1: there was also misconceptions on your gay pedophiles. That that's
Speaker 1: another thing that plays into it. So yeah, it was
Speaker 1: a tough period of time you went through.
Speaker 2: But yeah, but you know, I'm I'm great, and yeah
Speaker 2: it sounds weird looking back now I can so I'm grateful.
Speaker 2: I'm grateful.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, well we'll come back in part two. And look,
Speaker 1: I say up front that it's going it's hard because
Speaker 1: I know it's had an impact. And you know, we
Speaker 1: sit here with like I Catch Killers, a crime podcast,
Speaker 1: but this is where crime touched you very personally, when
Speaker 1: young Aaron light was was murdered, and we'll talk about that,
Speaker 1: talk about a period of time that you described as
Speaker 1: the most content period of time when you left football
Speaker 1: and you're in Nider doing the acting of training to
Speaker 1: become an actor and all the other things you're doing.
Speaker 1: So if we'll take a break and we'll be back
Speaker 1: shortly