WEBVTT - Breaking barriers: Ian Roberts Pt.1

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<v Speaker 1>The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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<v Speaker 1>Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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<v Speaker 1>exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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<v Speaker 1>For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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<v Speaker 1>That's what I did for a living. I was a

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<v Speaker 1>homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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<v Speaker 1>I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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<v Speaker 1>The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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<v Speaker 1>from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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<v Speaker 1>and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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<v Speaker 1>of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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<v Speaker 1>no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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<v Speaker 1>Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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<v Speaker 1>I spoke to Iaran Roberts, the former hard man of

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<v Speaker 1>the NRL. We spoke about his career during a brutal

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<v Speaker 1>era when on field violence and macho masculinity was a

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<v Speaker 1>culture Eran also talked about how how difficult was during

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<v Speaker 1>this time dealing with his sexuality and the consequence has

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<v Speaker 1>been the first high profile professional sportsman coming out in

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<v Speaker 1>public as gay. We also had a deeply personal conversation

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<v Speaker 1>about the emotional impact the murder of seventeen year old

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<v Speaker 1>Aaron Light, a young man Iaran was very close to,

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<v Speaker 1>and the remorse he felt following Aaron's brutal murder. Ian

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<v Speaker 1>also talked about how he only found his true self

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<v Speaker 1>after rugby league through acting activism and helping others deal

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<v Speaker 1>with their own insecurities. Before we started this interview and

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<v Speaker 1>told me nothing was off limits. Well, Iran was true

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<v Speaker 1>to his word and it has made for a fascinating conversation.

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<v Speaker 1>I find Ian's story quite inspirational. Have to listen, Iaran Roberts.

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<v Speaker 1>Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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<v Speaker 2>It's nice to be here. It's nice to be well.

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<v Speaker 2>I catch killers. It's been intimidating to be asked to

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<v Speaker 2>come on, I catch killers.

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<v Speaker 1>Okay, okay at a police interview room. Let's relax. Only

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<v Speaker 1>worry when I start to caution you. I've been a

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<v Speaker 1>big fan of yours for a long time, and I

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<v Speaker 1>think obviously on the football field, but more for the

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<v Speaker 1>courage that you took to stand up and be yourself,

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<v Speaker 1>to be your true self. And I think a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people shy away from that. They go through life

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<v Speaker 1>and yeah, trying to please people. Or conforming to what

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<v Speaker 1>people want them to be and so full credit to.

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<v Speaker 2>You, thank you, mate. But I will say I have

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<v Speaker 2>been very fortunate. I mean it was such a lot.

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<v Speaker 2>You know, obviously you're referring to my sexuality when I

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<v Speaker 2>came out, like, I've been very fortunate, mate, I am,

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<v Speaker 2>and actually I mean I'm sixty. I'm sixty next month, right,

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<v Speaker 2>So I've been totally like comfortable in my own self

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<v Speaker 2>now for thirty. You know, even when I was even

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<v Speaker 2>when I was a kid, I was always completely comfortable

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<v Speaker 2>like owning it and admitting to myself that I was

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<v Speaker 2>saying sex attracted. I mean, I like, I've never been

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<v Speaker 2>any had any internalized homophobia, which I'm really grateful for

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<v Speaker 2>because a lot of people do have to, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>to do something, struggle with it, deal with it. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, I I can never so it hasn't been

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, yes, I've been fortunate, and it's you know,

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<v Speaker 2>it has been difficult at times, but yeah, I've never

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<v Speaker 2>had an issue with it. Yeah, I mean I suppose.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean, even thinking back now, the first time I

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<v Speaker 2>remember that I was different if if that's I didn't know,

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<v Speaker 2>if that's the right word way to use that word,

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<v Speaker 2>but it would have been I would have been seven

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<v Speaker 2>nineteen seventy two. And I only know that because there

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<v Speaker 2>was a show called Checkerboard and it was it was

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<v Speaker 2>It was aired in nineteen seventy two, and I went

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<v Speaker 2>to the fiftieth anniversary about three years ago of this show.

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<v Speaker 2>And it was the first and this is why I know.

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<v Speaker 2>I was seven years old. It was the first time

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<v Speaker 2>to gay men had kissed on TV. And I was

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<v Speaker 2>sat in the lounge room with my dad watching it.

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<v Speaker 2>This is this is gospel and these two men kiss

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<v Speaker 2>like kissed on TV. And I was like, Oh, that's

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<v Speaker 2>what I do with my best mate, Barry Riley. You know.

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<v Speaker 2>It was just kids, kids being kids, right, I just

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<v Speaker 2>have a bit like and my dad and I just

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<v Speaker 2>used the language my dad said. My dad was like, Oh,

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<v Speaker 2>these fucking queers make my skin creep, you know, And

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<v Speaker 2>I was like, Oh, I probably shouldn't tell dad about Barry.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, you know what I mean.

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<v Speaker 2>But I mean, I went to that fifteenth anniversary one

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<v Speaker 2>of that the gentleman Peter is still alive. That was

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<v Speaker 2>like about three years ago. So I mean, that's but

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<v Speaker 2>I even knew before that that I was but I

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<v Speaker 2>also knew that, you know, it was something everyone else

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<v Speaker 2>had a problem with.

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<v Speaker 1>You know.

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<v Speaker 2>Obviously my dad's reaction was was just of its day,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like, yeah, but yeah, I never I never

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<v Speaker 2>strugg internally, mate. So I've always been really grateful that

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<v Speaker 2>that I had that makeup, that I didn't challenge myself

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<v Speaker 2>with it, and I didn't feel that I was in

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<v Speaker 2>any way dirty or wrong. A lot of people go

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<v Speaker 2>through that whole experience, yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>Because you hear a lot of people talk about that

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<v Speaker 1>type of experience and that they suppress it and fight

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<v Speaker 1>it and the whole life, and yeah, it's enlightened when

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<v Speaker 1>they come out, yeah midway through their life.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah. Yeah, I've never had that. I've never had that

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<v Speaker 2>sense of feeling in any way internalized anything negative, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>like I just haven't. I I consider myself really fortunate.

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<v Speaker 2>That's why I say unfortunate. I've been fortunate.

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<v Speaker 1>No, I understand well, As I said, I wanted to

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<v Speaker 1>get you on for a long time, and the opportunity

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<v Speaker 1>presented itself beautifully earlier this week, when Johnny had lined

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<v Speaker 1>us up to do a boxing session together.

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<v Speaker 2>Johnny lewis so nice to say him, He's like he's

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<v Speaker 2>one of those rare human beings. I can honestly say

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<v Speaker 2>I and Johnny is one of those one of those

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<v Speaker 2>people you meet in life you're a better person for

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<v Speaker 2>having met Johnny Lewis, like once you've knocked around and

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<v Speaker 2>like spent some time with him and saying the way

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<v Speaker 2>he's the way he lives his life in his philosophy,

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<v Speaker 2>like it's empowered. I mean, you understand what I'm talking.

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<v Speaker 2>He's one of those rare people. You know. It's like

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<v Speaker 2>like if he's one of those people that if if

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<v Speaker 2>someone else ever said something, you know, like negative about Johnny,

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<v Speaker 2>you have to say, mate, what's wrong with you? Johnny?

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<v Speaker 2>Like there's you know, you've got that wrong man, Like

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<v Speaker 2>you've you know, there's something wrong with you, Like Johnny

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<v Speaker 2>is He's just He's Yeah, he's one of those rare

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<v Speaker 2>human But I love the guy.

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<v Speaker 1>I think because he as we're discussing the other other

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<v Speaker 1>day when we're training, that he's a mental to so

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<v Speaker 1>many people. But I think I'm looking for what that

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<v Speaker 1>special magic is and he just accepts people for who

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<v Speaker 1>he is, and he looks for the good in people,

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<v Speaker 1>and that that's seems.

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<v Speaker 2>He doesn't matter to Johnny where you said socially like

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<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean, as long as you've got

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<v Speaker 2>a smile on your face and and you're respectful, that's

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<v Speaker 2>that's yeah, that's everyone's an egal Yeah.

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<v Speaker 1>It's a good way to go through life, isn't it.

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<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's great. But I just like it was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of nice. Could Like I said, I haven't hit the

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<v Speaker 2>pads ranging for a while, and then ten fifteen minutes

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<v Speaker 2>into it starts to get back into your body. It's

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<v Speaker 2>like things get in your body and like anyone that

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<v Speaker 2>that recall can't and you start a couple of times

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<v Speaker 2>you hit hit the pads really well and just like

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<v Speaker 2>you can feel the strength and oh yeah that feels great,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, I just remember. Yeah, so that was kind

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<v Speaker 2>of nice. But I will say I'm sixty next month.

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<v Speaker 2>The day after, oh my god, I felt I felt

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<v Speaker 2>my shoulders felt like I was one hundred mont I

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<v Speaker 2>was just.

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<v Speaker 1>Says something, doesn't you lose it? But I wondered if you, yeah.

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<v Speaker 2>My shoulders particularly just but I've had issues with my

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<v Speaker 2>shoulders now for a long time. But I do. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I'm not twenty, you know, I mean when you're twenty,

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<v Speaker 2>like when you're fifteen hitting about twenty. You're never going

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<v Speaker 2>to be fifty and sixty, are you? No, that's just

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<v Speaker 2>that's for dead people.

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<v Speaker 1>That's true, right, you can't even think about it.

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<v Speaker 2>That's never going to happen to you. But yeah, get

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<v Speaker 2>to your catches as all.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, you're you're a lot of things for a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of people like you've had. I think even I'm sure

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<v Speaker 1>you describe yourself as an ordinary man caught up in

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<v Speaker 1>extraordinary times and things. But you know, you're a footballer,

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<v Speaker 1>you're an actor, you're an activist. You've come out on

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<v Speaker 1>so many different issues, and you take a stand on things.

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<v Speaker 1>I suppose the question and trying to introduce you to

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<v Speaker 1>the podcast here, how would you describe yourself? It's a

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<v Speaker 1>tough question.

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<v Speaker 2>That's a I'm gonna have to memory and come back around.

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<v Speaker 2>And I had never thought of it like that. I mean,

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<v Speaker 2>that's really you know, I don't know if anyone's how

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<v Speaker 2>do I view myself as.

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<v Speaker 1>I'll help you help you out a bit in terms

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<v Speaker 1>of what you've done in life, what you've achieved, And

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<v Speaker 1>you've achieved good things in different different areas, and success

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<v Speaker 1>is measured in different different ways. But you followed your

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<v Speaker 1>passions on different things. Do you see yourself as a

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<v Speaker 1>footballer or do you see yourself as an actor or

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<v Speaker 1>a combination of all these things.

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<v Speaker 2>I think you know, people are complex man, Like you know,

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<v Speaker 2>age changes changing changes as well. My views now, like

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<v Speaker 2>in lame, will change on Like like I said earlier, mate,

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<v Speaker 2>you know when you're fifteen to twenty, you're never going

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<v Speaker 2>to be sixty. Yeah, you know, like everything changes. I yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>I think I look at my mum and dad and

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<v Speaker 2>how they struggled, you know, I mean they really struggled.

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<v Speaker 2>I mean I'm a ten pound pom. My mum and

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<v Speaker 2>dad came out here. They would have been twenty seven.

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<v Speaker 2>They came out on a boat, so I would have

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<v Speaker 2>been about I was about one and a half. I

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<v Speaker 2>had an older brother, Paul, and an older sister Julie.

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<v Speaker 2>They were a couple of years older than May. My

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<v Speaker 2>mom and dad came out here with you know, less

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<v Speaker 2>than about fifty quid in their pocket. I just and

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<v Speaker 2>you know, like it's kind of weird, but not weird.

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<v Speaker 2>Don't I say this one. I'm about to say it's

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<v Speaker 2>going to sound really negative, Like I grew up and contradictory.

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<v Speaker 2>I grew up in a very It almost feels uncomfortably

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<v Speaker 2>saying I just say I grew up in a very racist, misogynistic,

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<v Speaker 2>homophobic family, but I grew up in a very loving family. Yeah,

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<v Speaker 2>and it sounds like my mom and dad. The truth

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<v Speaker 2>is that, you know, my mom and dad left England

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<v Speaker 2>and they brought their three kids with them because there

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<v Speaker 2>was too many blacks coming to to London, right, I

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<v Speaker 2>just be honest. But my mom and dad's journey while

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<v Speaker 2>being here my dad passed away ten years ago, has

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<v Speaker 2>been unbelievable, like their journey in themselves. And that you

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<v Speaker 2>asked me who I was. I think my dad kind

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<v Speaker 2>of answered that for moment. My dad passed away ten

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<v Speaker 2>years ago, and just be prior to him passing away,

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<v Speaker 2>he got interview. The interview was about me, but you

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<v Speaker 2>know they were asking my dad. And I have a

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<v Speaker 2>younger sister too. My younger sister, Kyle, was born a

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<v Speaker 2>couple of years after we got here, so you know

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<v Speaker 2>I have had two brothers, two sisters and a brother.

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<v Speaker 2>And the I think this kind of answers you, kind

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<v Speaker 2>of answers your question, not so much about me, but

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<v Speaker 2>the way I was brought up and where I like

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<v Speaker 2>to feel like who I am. The interview, I asked

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<v Speaker 2>my dad. You know, they said, my dad, you must

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<v Speaker 2>be very proud of your son and what he's done,

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<v Speaker 2>you know, referring to me in my situation and my dad,

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<v Speaker 2>but like it was like the best, the most. My

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<v Speaker 2>dad was very uneducated, but the answer like it was Shakespearean.

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<v Speaker 2>My dad said, you know when they said, you know,

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<v Speaker 2>you must be very proud of your son, and my

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<v Speaker 2>dad said, I'm equally as proud of all my children.

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<v Speaker 2>But I am so grateful all that grateful that I

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<v Speaker 2>was gifted a gay son and I got to see

0:11:56.559 --> 0:11:58.160
<v Speaker 2>the world as it really is. Wow.

0:11:58.280 --> 0:12:00.319
<v Speaker 1>That's that's insightful, isn't it.

0:12:00.320 --> 0:12:03.400
<v Speaker 2>It's true like a bit, but it's like like like adversity,

0:12:03.440 --> 0:12:06.240
<v Speaker 2>you know, like adversity is what makes us that that's

0:12:06.720 --> 0:12:10.760
<v Speaker 2>that's what you really see, that's what shines in people.

0:12:11.120 --> 0:12:13.440
<v Speaker 2>My dad was like say, like I was, like, where

0:12:13.440 --> 0:12:15.480
<v Speaker 2>did that come from? You said, that's how I feel.

0:12:15.880 --> 0:12:18.240
<v Speaker 2>He said, that's you know I felt. And my dad

0:12:18.360 --> 0:12:20.360
<v Speaker 2>was When I first came out to my parents, I

0:12:20.360 --> 0:12:23.280
<v Speaker 2>didn't they didn't have We didn't talk for a number

0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.040
<v Speaker 2>of years. And that's because that was they fire problems.

0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:29.160
<v Speaker 2>I was really stubborn. I was always like you'd always said,

0:12:29.160 --> 0:12:31.839
<v Speaker 2>it didn't matter who I brought home, you know, as

0:12:31.880 --> 0:12:33.840
<v Speaker 2>I was growing up, you would love them because I

0:12:33.920 --> 0:12:39.160
<v Speaker 2>brought home someone the same sex. My parents initially, you know,

0:12:39.960 --> 0:12:42.760
<v Speaker 2>wouldn't allowed my then partner into the house. And I

0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.000
<v Speaker 2>saw we didn't. We didn't see each other or speak

0:12:45.040 --> 0:12:48.199
<v Speaker 2>for a number of years. But just their journey look

0:12:48.320 --> 0:12:52.200
<v Speaker 2>like that process of allowing change to happen, Like, I

0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.359
<v Speaker 2>think that is what you know, sometimes you just got

0:12:54.960 --> 0:12:57.920
<v Speaker 2>to allow change to happen. It's like you don't have

0:12:57.960 --> 0:12:59.640
<v Speaker 2>to agree with someone, but you can always have a

0:12:59.679 --> 0:13:02.920
<v Speaker 2>conversation with someone. Yeah, I don't know if that's answering.

0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:06.000
<v Speaker 1>Well, you can have some kindness and just whinding it

0:13:06.040 --> 0:13:08.160
<v Speaker 1>back a little bit with your your parents coming out.

0:13:08.360 --> 0:13:11.760
<v Speaker 1>I am always amazed that people that can establish a

0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:14.640
<v Speaker 1>new life in another country. It takes courage, doesn't it. Like, yeah,

0:13:15.280 --> 0:13:19.000
<v Speaker 1>people say there's life can be hard. I can't even comprehend,

0:13:19.200 --> 0:13:21.640
<v Speaker 1>you know, the courage it takes to just be terrifying,

0:13:21.720 --> 0:13:27.360
<v Speaker 1>right and after another country, Yeah, one terrifying, the other

0:13:27.400 --> 0:13:30.160
<v Speaker 1>thing about the values and you talk about that your

0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:35.199
<v Speaker 1>parents had they said racist views, and that it's also

0:13:35.240 --> 0:13:38.160
<v Speaker 1>a generational thing, isn't it that the world has changed,

0:13:38.200 --> 0:13:41.040
<v Speaker 1>Like I give, I hear comments from people, you know,

0:13:41.480 --> 0:13:45.640
<v Speaker 1>a generational two ahead, I think you can't say that anymore. Yeah,

0:13:47.040 --> 0:13:48.200
<v Speaker 1>but on.

0:13:48.160 --> 0:13:49.920
<v Speaker 2>The wrong side wrong side history.

0:13:49.960 --> 0:13:52.720
<v Speaker 1>I dare say, you know, in thirty years time, there'll

0:13:52.760 --> 0:13:55.080
<v Speaker 1>be comments that we're saying now and people just look

0:13:55.120 --> 0:13:56.360
<v Speaker 1>at those two dinosaurs.

0:13:56.559 --> 0:13:59.000
<v Speaker 2>That's not the way you're meant to.

0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:04.240
<v Speaker 1>Meant meant to. A question that might be easier to answer,

0:14:04.360 --> 0:14:09.160
<v Speaker 1>is what's scarier walking out on the football field about

0:14:09.200 --> 0:14:13.520
<v Speaker 1>to face an angry pack, walking on stage, walking onto

0:14:13.520 --> 0:14:15.120
<v Speaker 1>a stage with a live audience.

0:14:15.360 --> 0:14:18.840
<v Speaker 2>You know, I think for either of those two situations

0:14:18.840 --> 0:14:23.120
<v Speaker 2>can be terrifying the first initially, but I think everything

0:14:23.120 --> 0:14:28.720
<v Speaker 2>with like in confidence, everything becomes unbelievably powerful and engaging.

0:14:28.800 --> 0:14:32.920
<v Speaker 2>And yeah, I don't mean, you know what the word is,

0:14:32.960 --> 0:14:38.600
<v Speaker 2>but it becomes exciting. I mean, I yeah, like initially

0:14:39.160 --> 0:14:41.240
<v Speaker 2>playing rugby league in the first few times you played

0:14:41.280 --> 0:14:44.080
<v Speaker 2>first grade, it's terrifying, you know, for the first twelve months.

0:14:44.080 --> 0:14:49.280
<v Speaker 2>Really walking on stage the first few times as well,

0:14:49.480 --> 0:14:54.080
<v Speaker 2>But there comes up, there comes like it's almost like

0:14:54.120 --> 0:14:57.160
<v Speaker 2>an evolution within yourself of growth or I don't even

0:14:57.680 --> 0:15:01.680
<v Speaker 2>know if that's the right description, but confidence, once you

0:15:01.720 --> 0:15:04.400
<v Speaker 2>start finding your own way, finding your own mans, finding

0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.200
<v Speaker 2>your own path and the way you do things. There

0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:11.400
<v Speaker 2>was you know, there was a number of times during

0:15:11.440 --> 0:15:13.720
<v Speaker 2>my playing career that I that I was playing like

0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:18.240
<v Speaker 2>with and I think any any sports person will understand

0:15:18.280 --> 0:15:19.920
<v Speaker 2>what I'm about to say. When you play with like

0:15:20.040 --> 0:15:23.200
<v Speaker 2>just supreme confidence, So like you know, you hear that expression,

0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.720
<v Speaker 2>things slow down and you just get into this flow. Well,

0:15:25.760 --> 0:15:27.920
<v Speaker 2>it really does. Like there was some you know, it's

0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:30.280
<v Speaker 2>probably happened to me half a dozen times in my

0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.640
<v Speaker 2>playing career. I had patches for like a few months

0:15:32.800 --> 0:15:35.200
<v Speaker 2>where everything was just I was in control. I was

0:15:35.280 --> 0:15:38.560
<v Speaker 2>totally confident that my ability or it totally knew what

0:15:38.560 --> 0:15:41.600
<v Speaker 2>I was going to do before I did it. And

0:15:41.640 --> 0:15:44.080
<v Speaker 2>that kind of happened. But it took a long time

0:15:44.120 --> 0:15:47.520
<v Speaker 2>to get to that point as well. You know, my

0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:50.400
<v Speaker 2>initial couple of years at South I started playing first

0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.920
<v Speaker 2>grade at House in eighty six. You know, I was

0:15:53.560 --> 0:15:57.160
<v Speaker 2>like I was terrified of my own teammates, That's.

0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:03.080
<v Speaker 1>True, but they were scar it was I was.

0:16:02.080 --> 0:16:05.720
<v Speaker 2>I was in this pack with Les Davison, like David Boyle,

0:16:05.880 --> 0:16:09.560
<v Speaker 2>Mario Fanic, Wayne Chisholm. You know, I was just like

0:16:10.280 --> 0:16:11.920
<v Speaker 2>I was scared of like I was playing in the

0:16:11.920 --> 0:16:14.360
<v Speaker 2>same team. It was just like and they had a

0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.880
<v Speaker 2>really like I kind of caught that tail into that,

0:16:17.880 --> 0:16:20.840
<v Speaker 2>that generation of that the way the game was played

0:16:21.160 --> 0:16:23.200
<v Speaker 2>played played there.

0:16:23.520 --> 0:16:24.160
<v Speaker 1>I was brutal.

0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:28.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, there was a lot of like cheap shots and.

0:16:28.840 --> 0:16:30.320
<v Speaker 1>No place for the faint heart.

0:16:30.640 --> 0:16:32.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, it is, it is what it is. But

0:16:32.440 --> 0:16:36.440
<v Speaker 2>I mean I, as a young guy might coming into

0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:39.920
<v Speaker 2>the and into this house pack. That was the first

0:16:40.000 --> 0:16:42.240
<v Speaker 2>year George Piggins was there, and Gus Goob was in

0:16:42.240 --> 0:16:44.320
<v Speaker 2>the second row as well as his final year, and

0:16:44.360 --> 0:16:48.560
<v Speaker 2>he kind of coached the team. But I had a

0:16:48.640 --> 0:16:50.960
<v Speaker 2>high work rate. I didn't. I wasn't really I mean

0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.320
<v Speaker 2>I like thirty forty tackles whatever and number hit. That

0:16:55.400 --> 0:16:57.920
<v Speaker 2>was always my style player as a young guy. But

0:16:58.000 --> 0:17:01.440
<v Speaker 2>I did learn after a while you kind of had

0:17:01.440 --> 0:17:04.479
<v Speaker 2>to It's almost like you had to mold you had

0:17:04.520 --> 0:17:08.320
<v Speaker 2>to mold yourself into something more than what was just

0:17:08.359 --> 0:17:10.520
<v Speaker 2>basic and that kind of scene basic. What I mean

0:17:10.560 --> 0:17:13.680
<v Speaker 2>by that is like I mean when I left Souse

0:17:13.680 --> 0:17:16.360
<v Speaker 2>in a United like Les Davis and used to cut

0:17:16.359 --> 0:17:20.359
<v Speaker 2>guys in half in that And I'm not advocating for

0:17:20.400 --> 0:17:23.399
<v Speaker 2>that anymore, but I'm just saying, like he said this style,

0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.040
<v Speaker 2>and I knew when I went from South to Man,

0:17:25.160 --> 0:17:27.680
<v Speaker 2>I just wanted to change my game, be a bit

0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.760
<v Speaker 2>more enforce and really take ownership of the game in

0:17:32.200 --> 0:17:34.080
<v Speaker 2>the forward packing like yeah, but you just have to

0:17:34.240 --> 0:17:36.360
<v Speaker 2>and that comes with confidence. In just the first couple

0:17:36.400 --> 0:17:39.280
<v Speaker 2>of years at House, you know, I was terrified Mason time.

0:17:39.359 --> 0:17:43.760
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I mean the first game I played with

0:17:43.840 --> 0:17:47.639
<v Speaker 2>the Charity Ship and we were playing some George and

0:17:47.680 --> 0:17:51.680
<v Speaker 2>I was like, opposite me, it was Craig young Man,

0:17:51.800 --> 0:17:53.639
<v Speaker 2>like he was like a bit of a god, like

0:17:53.680 --> 0:17:55.199
<v Speaker 2>he was one of my favorite players. I just like

0:17:55.280 --> 0:17:58.680
<v Speaker 2>he was like this oak tree, right, there's no change.

0:17:58.680 --> 0:18:01.600
<v Speaker 2>There's no change in his like his shape from his necks,

0:18:01.640 --> 0:18:03.480
<v Speaker 2>from his head down to his feet, like it's just.

0:18:03.440 --> 0:18:04.399
<v Speaker 1>Like this, it's just a block.

0:18:04.480 --> 0:18:08.760
<v Speaker 2>Oh man. He was like a redwood. And we used

0:18:08.800 --> 0:18:15.400
<v Speaker 2>to have Tuger Craig Common. We had this move, this

0:18:15.520 --> 0:18:18.560
<v Speaker 2>call called Henry. It was you all in right.

0:18:19.359 --> 0:18:21.600
<v Speaker 1>If your little nippy half back.

0:18:21.440 --> 0:18:26.600
<v Speaker 2>And the second the second, the second scram Tiger walks

0:18:26.640 --> 0:18:31.800
<v Speaker 2>through Henry's on, Henry's on Craig Youngs just was I

0:18:31.840 --> 0:18:33.560
<v Speaker 2>was like, I went the water please, no.

0:18:34.000 --> 0:18:36.120
<v Speaker 1>No, I'm like at the call of Henry.

0:18:37.520 --> 0:18:40.159
<v Speaker 2>H and I like I made some feeble attempt. I

0:18:40.240 --> 0:18:42.160
<v Speaker 2>just wanted him to put like Craig Young to put

0:18:42.160 --> 0:18:43.560
<v Speaker 2>me out of my misery. Like I was just like

0:18:43.600 --> 0:18:45.800
<v Speaker 2>I was an order guy. You know. He nearly put

0:18:45.800 --> 0:18:47.600
<v Speaker 2>his like his fist through the back of my head.

0:18:48.520 --> 0:18:51.439
<v Speaker 2>But I was just but but that was that was

0:18:51.520 --> 0:18:54.760
<v Speaker 2>just being phased out at that time, like it and

0:18:54.960 --> 0:18:57.119
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, I'm grateful for it. But it did also

0:18:57.160 --> 0:18:59.479
<v Speaker 2>give me a realization of how physical the game had

0:18:59.600 --> 0:19:02.679
<v Speaker 2>to be at that time it was and if you

0:19:02.880 --> 0:19:06.560
<v Speaker 2>and if you didn't adjust your play and then that's

0:19:06.560 --> 0:19:08.120
<v Speaker 2>what I'm what I meant when I kind of when

0:19:08.119 --> 0:19:11.840
<v Speaker 2>I towards eighty eight eighty nine, when I really started

0:19:11.920 --> 0:19:13.920
<v Speaker 2>to become aware, you've got to change the style of

0:19:14.000 --> 0:19:15.680
<v Speaker 2>played to make this work for you.

0:19:15.880 --> 0:19:19.280
<v Speaker 1>Like that, Yeah, as the game is evolving you, you've

0:19:19.320 --> 0:19:21.399
<v Speaker 1>got to evolve too. I want to I want to

0:19:21.440 --> 0:19:24.040
<v Speaker 1>talk about talk about your career, but before I just

0:19:24.040 --> 0:19:25.959
<v Speaker 1>want to get a sense of your your growing up,

0:19:26.680 --> 0:19:27.719
<v Speaker 1>where where'd you grow up.

0:19:29.440 --> 0:19:31.520
<v Speaker 2>So, like I said, we were ten pound palms. We

0:19:32.520 --> 0:19:35.520
<v Speaker 2>grew up in in the hostel at Dacyville. We were

0:19:35.560 --> 0:19:37.000
<v Speaker 2>there for three or four years when we first came

0:19:37.040 --> 0:19:41.160
<v Speaker 2>out here. Then we moved to Erubro and that's back

0:19:41.440 --> 0:19:42.440
<v Speaker 2>in the Housing Commission.

0:19:42.640 --> 0:19:43.080
<v Speaker 3>We lived.

0:19:43.359 --> 0:19:47.000
<v Speaker 2>Moved from Aruba to I went to Uber Bay School

0:19:47.000 --> 0:19:50.320
<v Speaker 2>from kindergarten right through to high school. Then we moved

0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.600
<v Speaker 2>to South Could you always in the housing Commission?

0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:52.840
<v Speaker 1>Yeah?

0:19:54.200 --> 0:19:56.080
<v Speaker 2>And I think we left the Housing Commission my mom

0:19:56.080 --> 0:20:00.600
<v Speaker 2>and dad bought their first home in Botany. I would

0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.720
<v Speaker 2>have been about sixteen then. I think that would have

0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:03.600
<v Speaker 2>been about eighty one.

0:20:03.920 --> 0:20:08.160
<v Speaker 1>And did was football always your passion or well?

0:20:08.320 --> 0:20:10.520
<v Speaker 2>My dad used to be a boxer, right like, so

0:20:11.640 --> 0:20:13.760
<v Speaker 2>it kind of I kind of learned to box, not

0:20:13.880 --> 0:20:15.760
<v Speaker 2>learned to box. I mean, that's a hard way to

0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:19.560
<v Speaker 2>describe it. But my dad used to train my brother

0:20:19.600 --> 0:20:22.480
<v Speaker 2>and Ice. I've kind of always been and I've always been.

0:20:22.520 --> 0:20:26.119
<v Speaker 2>Really I felt really fortunate my dad did that because

0:20:27.160 --> 0:20:30.880
<v Speaker 2>for my own situation later in life. And yeah, I've

0:20:30.880 --> 0:20:32.720
<v Speaker 2>always kind of been able to look after myself, like

0:20:32.800 --> 0:20:35.880
<v Speaker 2>not look after myself, but you get what I mean.

0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.560
<v Speaker 1>But like I do it and I think and I've

0:20:38.600 --> 0:20:42.280
<v Speaker 1>been grateful for on Like a Crime podcast often when

0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.919
<v Speaker 1>I say about the benefits of people being taught self defense,

0:20:45.960 --> 0:20:49.080
<v Speaker 1>whether it's boxing or whatever stuff, it gives you the

0:20:49.080 --> 0:20:51.680
<v Speaker 1>confidence to stand up for yourself. Yeah, and maybe that's

0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:52.879
<v Speaker 1>what it proves yourself.

0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:54.000
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's what it is.

0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.080
<v Speaker 1>I think it's a good, good thing. So I do

0:20:56.200 --> 0:21:00.560
<v Speaker 1>understand what you're saying. And even in policing, the fact

0:21:00.560 --> 0:21:04.600
<v Speaker 1>that I could look after myself at helped, Like, yeah,

0:21:04.640 --> 0:21:06.440
<v Speaker 1>I could back it up if I needed to back

0:21:06.800 --> 0:21:07.280
<v Speaker 1>back it up.

0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:10.480
<v Speaker 2>And I think for me growing up, the hardest thing

0:21:10.720 --> 0:21:14.040
<v Speaker 2>was I didn't learn to read and write in my

0:21:14.119 --> 0:21:16.240
<v Speaker 2>thirties when I went to night I was dyslexic, right,

0:21:16.240 --> 0:21:17.960
<v Speaker 2>But but that wasn't that wasn't a thing when I

0:21:18.040 --> 0:21:20.600
<v Speaker 2>was a kid, was diagnosed. It wasn't like it just

0:21:20.680 --> 0:21:24.000
<v Speaker 2>dyslexily wasn't a thing I was. I was slow, right,

0:21:24.080 --> 0:21:26.959
<v Speaker 2>and always always used to be well, this is one

0:21:27.000 --> 0:21:30.359
<v Speaker 2>of those things. I was never in any way uncomfortable

0:21:30.359 --> 0:21:32.560
<v Speaker 2>about being the same sex attracted and knowing that as

0:21:32.600 --> 0:21:35.000
<v Speaker 2>I was going up, But I was always incredibly shameful

0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.600
<v Speaker 2>of of not being able to read and right, I

0:21:37.640 --> 0:21:42.399
<v Speaker 2>was that kid. I got suspended loads of times. But

0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:44.560
<v Speaker 2>I was that kid that the teacher. And this is

0:21:44.600 --> 0:21:47.240
<v Speaker 2>when we used to read out of books get up

0:21:47.280 --> 0:21:50.280
<v Speaker 2>and read. I'd make it about something else. I kick

0:21:50.320 --> 0:21:54.200
<v Speaker 2>the table over, storm out, or just throw a tantrum,

0:21:54.560 --> 0:21:58.240
<v Speaker 2>get sit outside. And I kind of like used to

0:21:58.320 --> 0:21:59.760
<v Speaker 2>usual to be really ashamed of not being able to

0:21:59.800 --> 0:22:04.520
<v Speaker 2>read right, like really shade. I repeated school a couple

0:22:04.560 --> 0:22:06.639
<v Speaker 2>like classes years, a couple of times, and that was

0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:08.840
<v Speaker 2>always really embarrassing for me as well, that I.

0:22:08.760 --> 0:22:11.560
<v Speaker 1>Was years you were hiding it by you.

0:22:11.920 --> 0:22:15.840
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't talk about I was always

0:22:15.840 --> 0:22:18.000
<v Speaker 2>in the special class, but you know that that was

0:22:18.040 --> 0:22:23.520
<v Speaker 2>always like so embarrassing. It was like really, And then

0:22:24.400 --> 0:22:26.159
<v Speaker 2>they say, there's that one teacher in your life. I

0:22:26.240 --> 0:22:28.639
<v Speaker 2>like to mention this because if I really did change

0:22:28.640 --> 0:22:32.639
<v Speaker 2>my life, I went right through school not being under it.

0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:34.880
<v Speaker 2>I was always pretty good with numbers, but so maths

0:22:34.920 --> 0:22:39.680
<v Speaker 2>and science comp but I could never read write. Then

0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:43.080
<v Speaker 2>when when I retired from footage and I wanted to

0:22:43.080 --> 0:22:45.879
<v Speaker 2>get back into acting, not get back into acting, I

0:22:45.920 --> 0:22:48.320
<v Speaker 2>just wanted to do some maybe do some community stuff

0:22:48.440 --> 0:22:51.399
<v Speaker 2>or some like community theater. Because the other thing about

0:22:51.520 --> 0:22:53.480
<v Speaker 2>being in the ensemble and that growing up, I could

0:22:53.560 --> 0:22:55.480
<v Speaker 2>never I never got any leads in that because I

0:22:55.480 --> 0:22:57.439
<v Speaker 2>couldn't read. I couldn't do I could do that like

0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.320
<v Speaker 2>the chorus stuff or anything, but read the light like

0:23:03.000 --> 0:23:06.600
<v Speaker 2>and that was always really embarrassing for me. Anyway. So

0:23:06.680 --> 0:23:11.200
<v Speaker 2>when I retired, my car had broken down, this true story.

0:23:11.440 --> 0:23:14.160
<v Speaker 2>My car had broken down just up the road from

0:23:14.240 --> 0:23:16.840
<v Speaker 2>Nider and I was walking by and this is now

0:23:16.920 --> 0:23:20.320
<v Speaker 2>I'm probably about thirty four. Yeah, I was walking by

0:23:20.480 --> 0:23:26.239
<v Speaker 2>nighter on an Zach Parade and Kensington and Kingsford, and

0:23:26.280 --> 0:23:28.440
<v Speaker 2>I thought, oh, I just duck in there Nighters see

0:23:28.440 --> 0:23:29.760
<v Speaker 2>if there's someone in there might be able to help

0:23:29.800 --> 0:23:31.960
<v Speaker 2>me do some like get back into some sort of

0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:34.800
<v Speaker 2>community theater, if they know someone blah blah blah. So

0:23:34.840 --> 0:23:38.640
<v Speaker 2>I went in there and I was you know, went

0:23:38.680 --> 0:23:42.040
<v Speaker 2>to the front desk and asked, and they buzzed Kevin Jackson.

0:23:43.760 --> 0:23:46.359
<v Speaker 2>Kevin was the one of the acting teachers there. He

0:23:46.520 --> 0:23:51.080
<v Speaker 2>changed my life. Was like, now Kevin knew me. Kevin

0:23:51.160 --> 0:23:53.200
<v Speaker 2>was a gay man as well, but Kevin knew of

0:23:53.240 --> 0:23:56.159
<v Speaker 2>my story even though he wasn't a football person. I

0:23:56.160 --> 0:23:59.679
<v Speaker 2>didn't know Kevin up until that point anyway, and I

0:23:59.720 --> 0:24:02.399
<v Speaker 2>said him about getting back in the community service. He said, oh,

0:24:02.440 --> 0:24:03.840
<v Speaker 2>come on, we'll do a cold bread and say how

0:24:03.880 --> 0:24:06.200
<v Speaker 2>you're going, and we'll see where he had. If you're

0:24:06.240 --> 0:24:08.520
<v Speaker 2>only good, you know, we might be able to help you.

0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:10.679
<v Speaker 2>Blah blah blah. So he took me in, you know,

0:24:10.720 --> 0:24:13.480
<v Speaker 2>he took me in this room and he gave me this,

0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.720
<v Speaker 2>this piece to read out. And he could tell as

0:24:16.720 --> 0:24:19.240
<v Speaker 2>he gave you men, I just like that the heat

0:24:19.840 --> 0:24:21.959
<v Speaker 2>the hot head thing you get and like I just

0:24:22.000 --> 0:24:24.800
<v Speaker 2>read it like ah, man, I just and he looked.

0:24:24.800 --> 0:24:26.560
<v Speaker 2>He said are you okay? And I just like, ah,

0:24:27.040 --> 0:24:29.880
<v Speaker 2>I just I can't read. I'm sorry. And he said

0:24:30.200 --> 0:24:33.960
<v Speaker 2>have dyslexia. And I had heard of that, but no not,

0:24:34.440 --> 0:24:37.560
<v Speaker 2>I'd never he said. I said, I can't read and write.

0:24:37.600 --> 0:24:40.639
<v Speaker 2>He said that's yeah. He said that's okay, he said,

0:24:40.840 --> 0:24:43.480
<v Speaker 2>he said, so you can't read you He says, what

0:24:43.520 --> 0:24:46.320
<v Speaker 2>we'll do is this. This changed my life. He said,

0:24:46.359 --> 0:24:48.160
<v Speaker 2>what we'll do is we'll take the piece I want

0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:50.040
<v Speaker 2>your learn. You go home and just listen to it.

0:24:50.119 --> 0:24:51.840
<v Speaker 2>Learn it open when you're ready to come back, and

0:24:51.880 --> 0:24:54.840
<v Speaker 2>we'll see you get That doesn't sound like much, right,

0:24:55.280 --> 0:24:57.360
<v Speaker 2>change my life, make like it was the first time

0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:01.000
<v Speaker 2>that he just seemed to not care, like he.

0:25:01.280 --> 0:25:03.359
<v Speaker 1>Really so that dropped all your embarrassment.

0:25:03.960 --> 0:25:06.479
<v Speaker 2>I mean, I was still really uncomfortable, right, but it

0:25:06.520 --> 0:25:09.159
<v Speaker 2>was just like this, this whole daorting really was that

0:25:09.320 --> 0:25:11.639
<v Speaker 2>easy to move on from this, Like it was one

0:25:11.640 --> 0:25:13.000
<v Speaker 2>of those things in my head. I'm just like I

0:25:13.000 --> 0:25:16.280
<v Speaker 2>can't believe, like it really really frustrated him. Like I

0:25:16.359 --> 0:25:18.480
<v Speaker 2>was just like, I have spent so much time agonizing

0:25:18.560 --> 0:25:20.560
<v Speaker 2>over not being able to writ and this guy just

0:25:20.640 --> 0:25:23.040
<v Speaker 2>like at first I was a bit angry, and I'm

0:25:23.080 --> 0:25:25.000
<v Speaker 2>just like, it's more important than that I can't read,

0:25:25.160 --> 0:25:26.960
<v Speaker 2>you know what I mean. He was just like, it's nothing,

0:25:27.320 --> 0:25:32.480
<v Speaker 2>nothing around it. And then you know, I learned the

0:25:32.480 --> 0:25:36.080
<v Speaker 2>police went back in and he's he trained me for

0:25:36.119 --> 0:25:38.040
<v Speaker 2>about six months, and then at the end of the

0:25:38.080 --> 0:25:39.800
<v Speaker 2>six months, he said, what do you do the audition for,

0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:42.160
<v Speaker 2>you know, for the club going for the three year course,

0:25:42.200 --> 0:25:44.840
<v Speaker 2>And I said, I'm a bit old, and he was like, mate,

0:25:44.840 --> 0:25:47.080
<v Speaker 2>if you're old, if you're old enough, if you're good enough,

0:25:47.080 --> 0:25:50.160
<v Speaker 2>you're old enough. That works both ways, right, he said,

0:25:50.160 --> 0:25:52.880
<v Speaker 2>it works both ways. So I didn't and I didn't,

0:25:53.000 --> 0:25:55.000
<v Speaker 2>and for the first six months a night. I didn't

0:25:55.000 --> 0:25:57.320
<v Speaker 2>tell anyone that I couldn't well, we told a couple

0:25:57.320 --> 0:26:00.320
<v Speaker 2>of teachers that I couldn't read and write, and he

0:26:00.400 --> 0:26:04.400
<v Speaker 2>would help me record stuff and that, and then then

0:26:04.400 --> 0:26:07.159
<v Speaker 2>we learned phonetics, which is another form of language. I

0:26:07.280 --> 0:26:09.320
<v Speaker 2>like writing and that that's kind of phonetics is what

0:26:09.440 --> 0:26:11.680
<v Speaker 2>saved me. I mean, I I right now like I'm

0:26:11.680 --> 0:26:14.040
<v Speaker 2>no Shakespeare, and I spoke about it before, but I

0:26:14.560 --> 0:26:16.960
<v Speaker 2>can read and write. I can like I can read

0:26:17.000 --> 0:26:19.760
<v Speaker 2>and write. Like I said, I'm no Shakespeare. But just

0:26:19.800 --> 0:26:22.280
<v Speaker 2>that one moment and like changed my life. It's just

0:26:22.320 --> 0:26:24.480
<v Speaker 2>almost like I remember a bit angry and the first

0:26:24.480 --> 0:26:26.240
<v Speaker 2>time he says, oh, do you have disc That's not

0:26:26.280 --> 0:26:28.920
<v Speaker 2>why I feel like, I say, what are you talking about?

0:26:28.960 --> 0:26:31.040
<v Speaker 2>But this has destroyed my life like that when you

0:26:31.080 --> 0:26:34.640
<v Speaker 2>talk about this is nothing. So it's just one yeah,

0:26:34.720 --> 0:26:38.800
<v Speaker 2>and yeah, it's just one of those moments. It just

0:26:39.960 --> 0:26:42.040
<v Speaker 2>and it kind of gave me this insight into other

0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:43.000
<v Speaker 2>stuff as well, like.

0:26:43.720 --> 0:26:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, look, I think it's so important. And yeah, we're

0:26:48.000 --> 0:26:51.080
<v Speaker 1>always talking the ways of reducing crime and different things.

0:26:51.320 --> 0:26:53.639
<v Speaker 1>I've seen it so many times when I was in

0:26:53.680 --> 0:26:56.480
<v Speaker 1>the cops with people that struggle and you know, you

0:26:57.640 --> 0:26:59.720
<v Speaker 1>lashed out when you're in class and all that, Yeah,

0:27:00.040 --> 0:27:03.760
<v Speaker 1>and carry on in the society. And I've seen blokes that, yeah,

0:27:03.920 --> 0:27:06.760
<v Speaker 1>they're not bad people, but they're hiding something. Even in

0:27:06.800 --> 0:27:09.680
<v Speaker 1>the interview room. You sign this statement and you push

0:27:09.840 --> 0:27:13.560
<v Speaker 1>the way they'll say something just to and over the

0:27:13.640 --> 0:27:16.159
<v Speaker 1>years you work out you could spot it. Someone's just

0:27:16.200 --> 0:27:18.840
<v Speaker 1>hiding the fact that they can't can't read or write.

0:27:18.880 --> 0:27:23.119
<v Speaker 1>And it's something that we really should stigmatized. Well I

0:27:23.160 --> 0:27:25.520
<v Speaker 1>suppose we have in a way, but really help people,

0:27:25.680 --> 0:27:26.200
<v Speaker 1>help people.

0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:32.120
<v Speaker 2>My partner Dan, he's he now works for the Education department,

0:27:32.119 --> 0:27:34.879
<v Speaker 2>but he's a school teacher. Yeah, and we've been been

0:27:34.920 --> 0:27:37.840
<v Speaker 2>toga in only twenty years. But the other good thing

0:27:37.920 --> 0:27:43.040
<v Speaker 2>is he teaches cater year six, so he's been great

0:27:43.040 --> 0:27:45.639
<v Speaker 2>for me as well. Like the whole reading and writing

0:27:45.680 --> 0:27:49.200
<v Speaker 2>and almost learning to read and write in your forties

0:27:49.200 --> 0:27:50.560
<v Speaker 2>and fifties, it's been wonderful.

0:27:50.600 --> 0:27:51.480
<v Speaker 1>It would have been the world.

0:27:52.040 --> 0:27:54.600
<v Speaker 2>It's like this, I don't know how to explain this.

0:27:54.720 --> 0:27:56.800
<v Speaker 2>Gas It's like this whole world got opened up to

0:27:56.840 --> 0:27:59.719
<v Speaker 2>me like that, this whole world that I've been like

0:28:00.160 --> 0:28:02.880
<v Speaker 2>moving alongside of, but I've never been able to step

0:28:02.920 --> 0:28:06.520
<v Speaker 2>into it reading books and just like sounds like it

0:28:06.560 --> 0:28:09.439
<v Speaker 2>doesn't sound like much, right, but like reading books was like,

0:28:09.480 --> 0:28:11.400
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I've missed out on this whole thing.

0:28:12.920 --> 0:28:16.800
<v Speaker 2>It's like this whole other world of experience. It was incredible. Wow.

0:28:17.840 --> 0:28:21.840
<v Speaker 1>Okay, So your childhood, when did you realize football was

0:28:21.840 --> 0:28:23.880
<v Speaker 1>going to be your career. At what point in time

0:28:23.920 --> 0:28:26.400
<v Speaker 1>did you think did you have any aspirations to work

0:28:26.440 --> 0:28:29.000
<v Speaker 1>in I want to do this, I want to do.

0:28:28.920 --> 0:28:30.400
<v Speaker 2>That, sparky by trade electrician.

0:28:30.480 --> 0:28:30.919
<v Speaker 1>Right, So.

0:28:33.440 --> 0:28:37.000
<v Speaker 2>I left in year ten, got a job as a sparky,

0:28:37.080 --> 0:28:40.280
<v Speaker 2>and I just thought that that would be that would

0:28:40.320 --> 0:28:41.920
<v Speaker 2>be it for me. I mean, like I said, my

0:28:42.400 --> 0:28:45.760
<v Speaker 2>education was never really valued in my family. My my

0:28:45.760 --> 0:28:50.280
<v Speaker 2>my two sisters were always going to be cleaners or secretaries,

0:28:50.280 --> 0:28:52.840
<v Speaker 2>and my brother and I were either going to be

0:28:53.080 --> 0:28:59.400
<v Speaker 2>like truckies or traders. That was, there was no real

0:28:59.480 --> 0:29:03.080
<v Speaker 2>value education with my mum and dad because my mom

0:29:03.160 --> 0:29:05.440
<v Speaker 2>was a cleaner mast of light. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah,

0:29:06.120 --> 0:29:13.200
<v Speaker 2>and my dad was like a project major process worker. Yeah.

0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:18.479
<v Speaker 2>So footy was And don't forget you're now talking at

0:29:18.480 --> 0:29:24.320
<v Speaker 2>a time when this is like you know, the early

0:29:24.360 --> 0:29:27.240
<v Speaker 2>eighties and that like players were on thirty and forty grand.

0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:28.680
<v Speaker 2>That was big money, right.

0:29:28.840 --> 0:29:30.360
<v Speaker 1>A lot of them were still working.

0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:32.640
<v Speaker 2>We used to train at house. We used to train

0:29:32.680 --> 0:29:34.960
<v Speaker 2>at like four thirty, so everyone could get home from

0:29:34.960 --> 0:29:37.680
<v Speaker 2>work and then go to training. That was a real thing.

0:29:37.800 --> 0:29:40.480
<v Speaker 2>Like that was like, you know, like that was just

0:29:40.520 --> 0:29:43.719
<v Speaker 2>the way. It was more in your day job than

0:29:43.720 --> 0:29:46.920
<v Speaker 2>you would playing footage. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of

0:29:46.960 --> 0:29:49.920
<v Speaker 2>interesting that things kind of panned out that way for me.

0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:52.640
<v Speaker 2>And then when I was about I suppose I was

0:29:52.640 --> 0:29:55.280
<v Speaker 2>about eight A, nine A and I was you know,

0:29:55.600 --> 0:29:57.360
<v Speaker 2>I was I was playing for mascot at the time.

0:29:57.400 --> 0:30:00.000
<v Speaker 2>I was pretty good at I had a bit of

0:30:00.040 --> 0:30:01.920
<v Speaker 2>a sliding doors moment too, because I was going to

0:30:01.920 --> 0:30:04.239
<v Speaker 2>go and like I did what Boxing was a bit

0:30:04.240 --> 0:30:05.680
<v Speaker 2>of a thing for me as well. I was just

0:30:06.480 --> 0:30:08.960
<v Speaker 2>footy kind of happened before boxing, if that makes sense.

0:30:09.760 --> 0:30:10.480
<v Speaker 1>The opportunity.

0:30:11.000 --> 0:30:12.920
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I didn't really want to I'm going to

0:30:12.960 --> 0:30:15.000
<v Speaker 2>be honest. I wanted to step away from from from

0:30:15.080 --> 0:30:16.920
<v Speaker 2>rugby league. I didn't really want to play sports and

0:30:16.960 --> 0:30:18.760
<v Speaker 2>that if I was going to make those because I

0:30:18.800 --> 0:30:21.120
<v Speaker 2>was always the only thing I was worried about being

0:30:21.160 --> 0:30:23.360
<v Speaker 2>same sex attractive is I didn't think they I thought

0:30:23.360 --> 0:30:26.040
<v Speaker 2>they were like water and oil, they could never wait.

0:30:27.320 --> 0:30:31.680
<v Speaker 1>The culture of the league at that time definitely homophobic.

0:30:32.120 --> 0:30:36.160
<v Speaker 1>Just it's much image and it's not the type of

0:30:36.240 --> 0:30:38.920
<v Speaker 1>thing that you would feel like that would be readily accepted.

0:30:39.280 --> 0:30:42.760
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, And I absolutely felt that's a good way of explaining.

0:30:42.800 --> 0:30:45.480
<v Speaker 2>I absolutely felt that. I remember I was the best

0:30:45.480 --> 0:30:47.160
<v Speaker 2>seven A A A and I said to my dad

0:30:47.200 --> 0:30:49.920
<v Speaker 2>that I was going to like stop playing footy for

0:30:50.200 --> 0:30:52.800
<v Speaker 2>that reason. Like, you know, I just I wasn't out

0:30:52.800 --> 0:30:56.040
<v Speaker 2>to my parents at this time, right, But I'd already

0:30:56.080 --> 0:30:57.920
<v Speaker 2>when I say I wasn't out, but I'd already been

0:30:57.920 --> 0:31:01.080
<v Speaker 2>on the scene. And you know, I I'd already been

0:31:01.080 --> 0:31:04.040
<v Speaker 2>out you know, the Oxford Street like it wasn't and

0:31:04.080 --> 0:31:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I was kind of out privately, if that makes sense.

0:31:06.680 --> 0:31:11.280
<v Speaker 2>I was comfortable to myself. I mean, I even I

0:31:11.400 --> 0:31:14.280
<v Speaker 2>used to have a Grand Corolla station wagon. It was

0:31:14.320 --> 0:31:17.120
<v Speaker 2>an old work van. In the back of the van,

0:31:17.200 --> 0:31:18.880
<v Speaker 2>I used to have these aren't going to sound like

0:31:18.880 --> 0:31:19.720
<v Speaker 2>a tickhead now.

0:31:21.280 --> 0:31:22.080
<v Speaker 1>We've heard a lot on this.

0:31:23.120 --> 0:31:24.840
<v Speaker 2>I used to have these clothes in the back of

0:31:24.880 --> 0:31:29.680
<v Speaker 2>my station wagon. It was like old military jackets. And

0:31:29.840 --> 0:31:32.560
<v Speaker 2>I would go out drive around the corner and get

0:31:32.640 --> 0:31:35.800
<v Speaker 2>changed into these fat like and then then go to

0:31:35.880 --> 0:31:39.280
<v Speaker 2>the Exchange and down Oxford Street and patches and like

0:31:39.280 --> 0:31:42.760
<v Speaker 2>in in a flashy, flashy year that whatever that you know,

0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:45.280
<v Speaker 2>that that that era was with the big hair and

0:31:45.560 --> 0:31:48.360
<v Speaker 2>that sorte of thing. And then when I come home,

0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I get changed again before I went and put put

0:31:51.440 --> 0:31:52.000
<v Speaker 2>them in the back of it.

0:31:52.080 --> 0:31:54.520
<v Speaker 1>That to put stress on you, like yeah, but it

0:31:54.560 --> 0:31:55.240
<v Speaker 1>was also fun.

0:31:55.400 --> 0:31:56.880
<v Speaker 2>The first time I went out in Oxford Street, I

0:31:56.880 --> 0:32:00.840
<v Speaker 2>was about sixteen. I found I say this all the time.

0:32:00.880 --> 0:32:02.800
<v Speaker 2>I went to a place called float Flows Palace. I

0:32:02.880 --> 0:32:08.640
<v Speaker 2>just got the bus in the three ninety six, and

0:32:10.160 --> 0:32:12.200
<v Speaker 2>there was this whole other world that opened up to me,

0:32:12.560 --> 0:32:16.440
<v Speaker 2>like I felt like I had a crush on the barman.

0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:18.560
<v Speaker 2>And then I left that place and I walked down

0:32:18.840 --> 0:32:22.000
<v Speaker 2>the road to the Exchange Hotel, and for anyone of

0:32:22.080 --> 0:32:24.840
<v Speaker 2>our generation, they would know the Exchange and that as

0:32:24.880 --> 0:32:26.600
<v Speaker 2>soon as I walked through those doors, I was like,

0:32:26.640 --> 0:32:29.560
<v Speaker 2>oh my god, I found my people. This is this

0:32:29.600 --> 0:32:33.080
<v Speaker 2>is where I belonged. It was that whole eighties punk

0:32:33.200 --> 0:32:35.080
<v Speaker 2>rock slash, you know.

0:32:37.080 --> 0:32:39.920
<v Speaker 1>But then you go from that environment, then you're back

0:32:39.920 --> 0:32:42.040
<v Speaker 1>in the football culture. It must have been.

0:32:42.560 --> 0:32:44.640
<v Speaker 2>It was yeah, it was. It was black and like

0:32:44.680 --> 0:32:47.320
<v Speaker 2>it was very different. Yeah, but I do just and

0:32:47.600 --> 0:32:51.040
<v Speaker 2>I used to live for Friday and Saturday nights. It

0:32:51.160 --> 0:32:53.800
<v Speaker 2>was anyway, So I was, I say, like, and I

0:32:54.000 --> 0:32:56.040
<v Speaker 2>was at that stage, you know, I just said, I

0:32:56.120 --> 0:32:57.560
<v Speaker 2>just said the dad, I don't know, I'm not going

0:32:57.600 --> 0:33:00.160
<v Speaker 2>to play anymore. And my dad was a boy and

0:33:00.240 --> 0:33:02.200
<v Speaker 2>my dad, my mum and dad who really supported me,

0:33:02.480 --> 0:33:05.800
<v Speaker 2>like taking me to My dad always was always the

0:33:05.840 --> 0:33:07.920
<v Speaker 2>manager or something of the young teams. I was playing

0:33:08.080 --> 0:33:11.960
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of parents are not invested. My dads

0:33:12.040 --> 0:33:13.239
<v Speaker 2>to love it too, and I was, you know, I

0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:17.880
<v Speaker 2>was playing good football as a young boat. And it

0:33:17.920 --> 0:33:20.120
<v Speaker 2>happens like and I I was going, I'm going to

0:33:20.160 --> 0:33:21.960
<v Speaker 2>step away. He said you can't. Boy, you know there's

0:33:22.000 --> 0:33:25.560
<v Speaker 2>a big chance. And so I promised my dad, I'll

0:33:25.560 --> 0:33:28.760
<v Speaker 2>give it one more year. And I got graded that year.

0:33:28.800 --> 0:33:31.400
<v Speaker 2>You know, like if my dad hadn't a like kind

0:33:31.400 --> 0:33:33.720
<v Speaker 2>of twisted mom and like walked away, I would have

0:33:33.720 --> 0:33:36.920
<v Speaker 2>definitely walked away, like because I didn't think I just

0:33:37.320 --> 0:33:39.120
<v Speaker 2>because I knew I was gay, like I just like

0:33:39.200 --> 0:33:41.360
<v Speaker 2>and I knew I like I had tried to date

0:33:41.440 --> 0:33:44.320
<v Speaker 2>girls and tried to do with that like that was

0:33:44.320 --> 0:33:45.880
<v Speaker 2>was not going to work for me, you know, I was,

0:33:47.640 --> 0:33:48.960
<v Speaker 2>and I knew the time was going to come that

0:33:49.000 --> 0:33:51.400
<v Speaker 2>I was going to have to tell my parents and

0:33:51.400 --> 0:33:55.120
<v Speaker 2>and I just didn't think that, Yeah, you speak earlier

0:33:55.120 --> 0:33:59.320
<v Speaker 2>about the conflict that I that I saw that there's

0:33:59.440 --> 0:34:02.200
<v Speaker 2>two wells kind of clashing or whatever. You know, I

0:34:02.400 --> 0:34:04.040
<v Speaker 2>just didn't I didn't.

0:34:03.840 --> 0:34:06.560
<v Speaker 1>Think they could could you could you could juggle it?

0:34:06.760 --> 0:34:08.720
<v Speaker 1>Question when when did you come out to your parents?

0:34:08.760 --> 0:34:09.479
<v Speaker 1>When did they find?

0:34:10.320 --> 0:34:14.359
<v Speaker 2>What about twenty two? And like like I came out

0:34:14.400 --> 0:34:16.400
<v Speaker 2>in like just an awful way as well. I mean

0:34:16.400 --> 0:34:18.600
<v Speaker 2>there are good you know, there are good ways to

0:34:18.640 --> 0:34:22.080
<v Speaker 2>come out, and there were ways that aren't so good.

0:34:22.440 --> 0:34:24.920
<v Speaker 2>And in saying what I'm about to say that there

0:34:25.000 --> 0:34:27.960
<v Speaker 2>was there are one hundred thousands of stories much more

0:34:28.040 --> 0:34:30.759
<v Speaker 2>inspirational than mine, But there are thousands of stories much

0:34:30.840 --> 0:34:34.359
<v Speaker 2>more tragic, mate, and like the consequential the mine as well,

0:34:34.400 --> 0:34:36.319
<v Speaker 2>you know, like I just want to make I came

0:34:36.320 --> 0:34:38.239
<v Speaker 2>and my mum used to work at Connie as like

0:34:38.480 --> 0:34:40.960
<v Speaker 2>as a cleaner. This is how I came out. So

0:34:41.000 --> 0:34:42.759
<v Speaker 2>it was nineteen eighty seven and I was having a

0:34:42.800 --> 0:34:46.440
<v Speaker 2>really good year as its house. Actually I'm giving myself

0:34:46.440 --> 0:34:48.359
<v Speaker 2>a pat on the back. I got proper the year

0:34:48.360 --> 0:34:51.239
<v Speaker 2>that year for the daim Yeah, okay, it was my

0:34:51.320 --> 0:34:56.360
<v Speaker 2>second year in in the in the top rode. Anyway,

0:34:57.480 --> 0:35:00.600
<v Speaker 2>my mum was working at Quotas and these these two boys.

0:35:00.640 --> 0:35:02.800
<v Speaker 2>My mom's at lunch and my mum's having a sandwiches

0:35:02.840 --> 0:35:05.359
<v Speaker 2>or whatever, and that just opposite. Like we are now

0:35:05.560 --> 0:35:08.680
<v Speaker 2>two boys reading a newspapers. Now boys just been boys

0:35:08.680 --> 0:35:12.160
<v Speaker 2>with banter and just sledging and that type of thing.

0:35:12.280 --> 0:35:14.640
<v Speaker 2>And then not realizing that the article they were reading

0:35:14.840 --> 0:35:17.080
<v Speaker 2>was about me and not read realizing that, you know,

0:35:17.320 --> 0:35:18.560
<v Speaker 2>the mother of that person was.

0:35:20.000 --> 0:35:22.759
<v Speaker 1>My mom's incomplete is.

0:35:22.719 --> 0:35:24.960
<v Speaker 2>In complete earshot. And then you know, I had been

0:35:25.040 --> 0:35:26.880
<v Speaker 2>going out to Oxford Street, been doing that since I

0:35:26.960 --> 0:35:30.720
<v Speaker 2>was sixteen, and I had you know, I had partners

0:35:30.840 --> 0:35:33.360
<v Speaker 2>at that by that stage. And I'll just use a

0:35:33.440 --> 0:35:36.120
<v Speaker 2>language that was used so you can understand, and I

0:35:36.520 --> 0:35:38.920
<v Speaker 2>called this loose language and the consequences and the effects

0:35:38.920 --> 0:35:41.680
<v Speaker 2>that loose language can have and the devastating effects it

0:35:41.800 --> 0:35:42.160
<v Speaker 2>can have.

0:35:42.200 --> 0:35:42.439
<v Speaker 1>Money.

0:35:42.760 --> 0:35:46.840
<v Speaker 2>So these two boys are reading a little bit uncomfortable

0:35:46.840 --> 0:35:49.640
<v Speaker 2>with These two boys are reading that article. Mum said,

0:35:49.680 --> 0:35:52.480
<v Speaker 2>here reading your sandwiches, and one boy says to the

0:35:52.480 --> 0:35:55.279
<v Speaker 2>other boy, that's saying Roberts, he got caught sucking a

0:35:55.280 --> 0:35:58.160
<v Speaker 2>guy off at Oxford Street. Right, So just to be clear,

0:35:58.360 --> 0:36:02.399
<v Speaker 2>that wasn't true. You were clear of that. I didn't

0:36:02.400 --> 0:36:06.239
<v Speaker 2>get caught, No, no, but that wasn't true. It's just

0:36:06.239 --> 0:36:08.480
<v Speaker 2>two boys bantering. But you can imagine the effects I

0:36:08.480 --> 0:36:11.239
<v Speaker 2>had on my mum, right, she was and my mum

0:36:11.480 --> 0:36:14.399
<v Speaker 2>by that stage, people were like I had a hot

0:36:15.040 --> 0:36:18.080
<v Speaker 2>people hecklers and that at the foot would scream stuff

0:36:18.120 --> 0:36:21.880
<v Speaker 2>out and it was it was definitely out there. My

0:36:21.960 --> 0:36:24.520
<v Speaker 2>mom had to go home. She was she's not well.

0:36:25.600 --> 0:36:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I got a phone call off my dad later that night, and,

0:36:27.680 --> 0:36:29.960
<v Speaker 2>like I said, this is a pretty ordinary story for

0:36:30.160 --> 0:36:33.040
<v Speaker 2>gay people. They've heard these stories before, right, Like we've

0:36:33.120 --> 0:36:36.120
<v Speaker 2>all heard very simple stories. Dad, you said, oh boy,

0:36:36.120 --> 0:36:39.000
<v Speaker 2>you better come home and your mum heard something that work.

0:36:39.040 --> 0:36:40.680
<v Speaker 2>We need to talk about it. I got home. You

0:36:40.800 --> 0:36:43.200
<v Speaker 2>love this bit and I sit down. I walked into

0:36:43.239 --> 0:36:46.480
<v Speaker 2>the house. It was like someone that died. My mom's

0:36:46.520 --> 0:36:48.360
<v Speaker 2>bawling her eyes and my dad sits in front of

0:36:48.400 --> 0:36:50.680
<v Speaker 2>me and I sit down and I was like that, dad,

0:36:50.680 --> 0:36:55.319
<v Speaker 2>what's happened? And he mate, your mum's heard something at work.

0:36:55.360 --> 0:36:57.640
<v Speaker 2>We just want to hear you say that you're not gay,

0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:02.360
<v Speaker 2>and that'll be good enough for us. So you know,

0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:04.120
<v Speaker 2>like no, there was the way he worded it. So

0:37:04.400 --> 0:37:07.640
<v Speaker 2>we spoke about it after like and I'm like, oh no,

0:37:07.760 --> 0:37:10.279
<v Speaker 2>that I'm gay, and my mom went crazy right like

0:37:10.320 --> 0:37:13.359
<v Speaker 2>she just but uh, this is a very familiar story

0:37:13.400 --> 0:37:16.000
<v Speaker 2>for for gaying. They would have heard these stories before.

0:37:16.320 --> 0:37:18.480
<v Speaker 2>But my dad is real. Actually was the best. He

0:37:18.520 --> 0:37:20.120
<v Speaker 2>stood there and like he was just staring at me,

0:37:20.160 --> 0:37:23.080
<v Speaker 2>and I'm just like looking at him. He's like, but

0:37:23.160 --> 0:37:28.319
<v Speaker 2>you play front row? He was like, you play front row?

0:37:29.320 --> 0:37:31.160
<v Speaker 2>Like he was stuck on that. Like he said about

0:37:31.160 --> 0:37:35.440
<v Speaker 2>three or four times, like your front rower. Like he

0:37:35.560 --> 0:37:37.160
<v Speaker 2>kept saying this thing about the front row. And I'm

0:37:37.200 --> 0:37:45.000
<v Speaker 2>just like so like he said, like it like it

0:37:45.080 --> 0:37:47.600
<v Speaker 2>didn't compute, you know anyway. I didn't didn't. I didn't

0:37:47.640 --> 0:37:50.120
<v Speaker 2>didn't go down. Well, I looked like I left the

0:37:50.160 --> 0:37:53.560
<v Speaker 2>heir we did. Uh, you know that they they weren't happy,

0:37:53.560 --> 0:37:56.120
<v Speaker 2>but they said stuff that like you know like okay,

0:37:56.200 --> 0:38:00.640
<v Speaker 2>well and my uncle, my dad's uncle Jack was gay. Uh,

0:38:01.120 --> 0:38:02.640
<v Speaker 2>but it was one of those things the whole family

0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:05.720
<v Speaker 2>denied and Uncle Jack and uncle John. He's his special friend.

0:38:06.360 --> 0:38:09.799
<v Speaker 2>Like we're always invited, but no one your uncle dad

0:38:09.880 --> 0:38:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Jack was gay. They like Luis.

0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:13.879
<v Speaker 1>I think families have got everyone's got.

0:38:14.160 --> 0:38:16.600
<v Speaker 2>Jack, right, everyone's got every family's got an uncle Jack.

0:38:16.680 --> 0:38:18.520
<v Speaker 2>I just said, Dad, your uncle Jack nor he was?

0:38:18.600 --> 0:38:21.080
<v Speaker 2>I said, Dad, come on, man like anyway. But that

0:38:21.200 --> 0:38:25.239
<v Speaker 2>was years later. But yeah, like my dad says something

0:38:25.320 --> 0:38:27.560
<v Speaker 2>like you know and but at that stage I was

0:38:28.360 --> 0:38:31.799
<v Speaker 2>I think my partner's name was Shane. Uh. And he said, oh,

0:38:31.840 --> 0:38:35.520
<v Speaker 2>well you know you told them that Shane and anyway,

0:38:35.680 --> 0:38:37.480
<v Speaker 2>he just so you know you can't come around. I said, well,

0:38:37.480 --> 0:38:39.800
<v Speaker 2>if Shane can't come around, Dad, I'm not coming around

0:38:39.840 --> 0:38:42.640
<v Speaker 2>until you're get in your head. That was That was

0:38:42.719 --> 0:38:46.040
<v Speaker 2>why Dad, until you that was the line in the

0:38:46.080 --> 0:38:48.560
<v Speaker 2>sand his dad, do you get in your head? This

0:38:48.640 --> 0:38:50.279
<v Speaker 2>is who this is the way it's going to be.

0:38:51.320 --> 0:38:53.680
<v Speaker 2>I'm not coming We didn't. We didn't speak for no reusement.

0:38:54.760 --> 0:38:58.080
<v Speaker 2>It's just but it's funny my dad's reaction. You just

0:38:58.120 --> 0:39:01.160
<v Speaker 2>stuck on that on that reway. You're front right, but

0:39:01.200 --> 0:39:03.439
<v Speaker 2>you play front right. Yeah.

0:39:03.480 --> 0:39:06.480
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think and as you said, a lot of

0:39:06.480 --> 0:39:09.359
<v Speaker 1>families have got stories. I'll check with my sister from

0:39:09.400 --> 0:39:11.400
<v Speaker 1>allowed to tell this story. We might have to have

0:39:11.440 --> 0:39:15.080
<v Speaker 1>to edit it. But she's gay and she was going

0:39:15.120 --> 0:39:17.360
<v Speaker 1>to come out and my parents were having Christmas up

0:39:17.600 --> 0:39:19.920
<v Speaker 1>up the coast and I wasn't going. I had something

0:39:19.960 --> 0:39:23.200
<v Speaker 1>else on that. And my sister said, I'm coming out

0:39:23.200 --> 0:39:24.759
<v Speaker 1>to my mum and dad. I said, I'm up there.

0:39:24.800 --> 0:39:25.880
<v Speaker 1>This is going to be interesting.

0:39:27.600 --> 0:39:29.879
<v Speaker 2>It's nice. She says, she was out to you. Yeah,

0:39:30.280 --> 0:39:33.319
<v Speaker 2>that's that's that already tells me, mate, that's that's a

0:39:33.480 --> 0:39:34.920
<v Speaker 2>that's a nice relationship between you.

0:39:35.040 --> 0:39:37.960
<v Speaker 1>Yes, yeah, it was a good relationship. So we're at

0:39:37.960 --> 0:39:41.719
<v Speaker 1>the Christmas everyone's sitting around for the Christmas dinner or

0:39:42.000 --> 0:39:45.400
<v Speaker 1>whatever it was, and Michelle comes out and my parents

0:39:45.400 --> 0:39:50.160
<v Speaker 1>are saying, I think her friend is they're just good friends.

0:39:50.160 --> 0:39:51.680
<v Speaker 1>And I'm going, are you sure? Mom? And Dad? I

0:39:51.719 --> 0:39:54.000
<v Speaker 1>know it's coming, so I'm sort of frowing fuel on

0:39:54.040 --> 0:40:01.120
<v Speaker 1>the and then she's come out and Dad's there, okay, well,

0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:05.040
<v Speaker 1>and he's sort of fairly easy with it. Mum was

0:40:05.040 --> 0:40:07.040
<v Speaker 1>fine with it, but she all of a sudden decides

0:40:07.040 --> 0:40:09.800
<v Speaker 1>she had to pick up all the plates off the

0:40:09.880 --> 0:40:13.000
<v Speaker 1>off the table, and she's busy doing the doing the

0:40:13.080 --> 0:40:15.279
<v Speaker 1>washing up, but the next day was the best bit.

0:40:15.600 --> 0:40:19.200
<v Speaker 1>Mum was so rattled by it. She's telling people, Ah,

0:40:19.239 --> 0:40:22.120
<v Speaker 1>my daughter came out as Lebanese. She's so rattles you

0:40:22.120 --> 0:40:25.759
<v Speaker 1>couldn't even say lesbian. She's saying Lebanese. So now we've

0:40:25.800 --> 0:40:28.640
<v Speaker 1>declared that mum's got a Lebanese daughter because she was

0:40:28.640 --> 0:40:31.520
<v Speaker 1>telling people just how rattle sweet. But do you think

0:40:31.840 --> 0:40:34.960
<v Speaker 1>I think part of it is Yeah, I could be wrong,

0:40:34.960 --> 0:40:37.640
<v Speaker 1>and everyone everyone's different, but I always think it's part

0:40:37.920 --> 0:40:41.080
<v Speaker 1>as a parent, you want your kid's life to be easy.

0:40:41.320 --> 0:40:43.839
<v Speaker 1>And I'm sure part of the reaction from your dad

0:40:43.880 --> 0:40:46.799
<v Speaker 1>would be knowing the world and your mum knowing the

0:40:46.800 --> 0:40:48.880
<v Speaker 1>world that your life's going to be that little bit harder.

0:40:49.760 --> 0:40:53.680
<v Speaker 2>Absolutely, absolutely, you know that they do think it was

0:40:53.719 --> 0:40:55.759
<v Speaker 2>going to be difficult though, and they were you know.

0:40:55.800 --> 0:40:58.640
<v Speaker 2>The other thing is they were worried about what people

0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:00.880
<v Speaker 2>would think that make, you know, and there was that

0:41:01.000 --> 0:41:03.319
<v Speaker 2>still a thing that gay men a week becau there

0:41:03.360 --> 0:41:06.719
<v Speaker 2>was all that. I mean, I I'm part of an

0:41:06.840 --> 0:41:09.480
<v Speaker 2>education program called Think About It and we we it's

0:41:10.320 --> 0:41:14.239
<v Speaker 2>theater sports stuff. One of the a couple of the

0:41:14.280 --> 0:41:17.799
<v Speaker 2>scenes that I'm involved in. Uh, we go out to

0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:21.000
<v Speaker 2>corporations and if the corporations, and we started off during

0:41:21.000 --> 0:41:23.120
<v Speaker 2>the NRL. That's how it started on all the teams,

0:41:24.080 --> 0:41:29.719
<v Speaker 2>and we touch on subjects. We do scenes where around misogyny,

0:41:30.040 --> 0:41:35.919
<v Speaker 2>violence against women, homophobia, drugs in sport and with the corporations,

0:41:36.080 --> 0:41:41.040
<v Speaker 2>you know again all those things about discrimination, and we

0:41:41.080 --> 0:41:42.960
<v Speaker 2>get a couple of people up involved from the audience

0:41:43.040 --> 0:41:44.560
<v Speaker 2>and then and then we talk about it and how

0:41:44.640 --> 0:41:48.920
<v Speaker 2>best it could have navigated. Uh, And I tell I

0:41:49.040 --> 0:41:52.000
<v Speaker 2>kind of tell that story about my coming out and

0:41:52.800 --> 0:41:55.840
<v Speaker 2>the way that we have a couple of saying around

0:41:55.840 --> 0:42:00.040
<v Speaker 2>homophobia and the best way approaches. And I told my

0:42:00.080 --> 0:42:03.160
<v Speaker 2>mom that, well, I've been doing that think about stuff

0:42:03.239 --> 0:42:05.560
<v Speaker 2>now for well over ten years. I told my mom

0:42:05.640 --> 0:42:08.480
<v Speaker 2>just recently, only a couple of months ago, that I

0:42:08.520 --> 0:42:12.480
<v Speaker 2>do that scene and I talk about I mentioned occasionally

0:42:12.480 --> 0:42:15.200
<v Speaker 2>mentioned about the situation with her at lunch and that

0:42:15.600 --> 0:42:17.840
<v Speaker 2>and how it all came to her head and my

0:42:17.920 --> 0:42:20.040
<v Speaker 2>mom found out. And I kind of make it a

0:42:20.040 --> 0:42:24.040
<v Speaker 2>bit jovial and like when I tell the corporations and

0:42:24.080 --> 0:42:25.719
<v Speaker 2>the teams, and I make it a bit funny because

0:42:25.719 --> 0:42:27.800
<v Speaker 2>I find it easier if you can take fund at yourself.

0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:30.920
<v Speaker 2>It lets people in. I tell my mom, That's how

0:42:30.960 --> 0:42:33.399
<v Speaker 2>I do it. My mom. Mum's eighty five. She broke

0:42:33.440 --> 0:42:36.160
<v Speaker 2>down and started crying like she's because she remembers the

0:42:36.200 --> 0:42:40.360
<v Speaker 2>way she acted and how and how catastrophic it was

0:42:40.400 --> 0:42:43.560
<v Speaker 2>for her. And I felt terrible like that I hadn't

0:42:43.600 --> 0:42:46.839
<v Speaker 2>spoken to her about about and she's still dealing with that.

0:42:46.880 --> 0:42:50.080
<v Speaker 2>And that's what I was saying about that the power

0:42:50.120 --> 0:42:53.440
<v Speaker 2>that you know that words have and symbols have. It

0:42:53.560 --> 0:42:55.799
<v Speaker 2>was just one of those like real grounding moments from them,

0:42:55.920 --> 0:42:58.000
<v Speaker 2>like your mom, you're still dealing like my mom is

0:42:58.040 --> 0:43:00.799
<v Speaker 2>one hundred. My mom's grace ally of all the time

0:43:00.840 --> 0:43:03.480
<v Speaker 2>for gay people now, right. But she says, yeah, she

0:43:04.200 --> 0:43:08.839
<v Speaker 2>still feels how her initial react and what she thought

0:43:08.880 --> 0:43:12.960
<v Speaker 2>about me, and that how bad it makes her.

0:43:13.280 --> 0:43:16.040
<v Speaker 1>How the impact on you. I can understand.

0:43:16.800 --> 0:43:20.600
<v Speaker 2>Words, you know, like LS language has a damaging though.

0:43:20.680 --> 0:43:25.400
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, yeah, okay. Your football career, so you started playing

0:43:25.800 --> 0:43:30.640
<v Speaker 1>playing with South's you spent four years there. Your football

0:43:30.680 --> 0:43:34.919
<v Speaker 1>career is quite incredible. You've played for I've just got

0:43:34.920 --> 0:43:39.680
<v Speaker 1>some of the stats here. You've played for Australia nine times,

0:43:39.800 --> 0:43:40.480
<v Speaker 1>nine times.

0:43:40.360 --> 0:43:43.040
<v Speaker 2>As a dozen times. I suppose I don't even know

0:43:43.120 --> 0:43:43.680
<v Speaker 2>the number is.

0:43:43.920 --> 0:43:48.000
<v Speaker 1>Two hundred and thirteen first grade games South Sydney and

0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:53.600
<v Speaker 1>Manly and Wigan and North Queensland. You played state of Origin.

0:43:54.520 --> 0:43:56.279
<v Speaker 1>I've got a couple of things here. By the age

0:43:56.280 --> 0:43:59.120
<v Speaker 1>of twenty one, Jack Gibson, who's sort of renowned as

0:43:59.239 --> 0:44:02.000
<v Speaker 1>the Guru of rugby league, described you as the best

0:44:02.000 --> 0:44:05.200
<v Speaker 1>front brower in the game, and at one point in

0:44:05.200 --> 0:44:08.200
<v Speaker 1>time you're the highest for profile player in the game

0:44:08.239 --> 0:44:09.919
<v Speaker 1>and the highest paid player in the game.

0:44:10.000 --> 0:44:13.640
<v Speaker 2>That's a long time ago, and that's when that's you're

0:44:13.640 --> 0:44:15.640
<v Speaker 2>talking about now. When I went to man Like, I

0:44:15.640 --> 0:44:18.399
<v Speaker 2>got twenty grand a year, yeah, and that was like

0:44:18.440 --> 0:44:21.640
<v Speaker 2>that was that was when fifty grand was huge money.

0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:21.719
<v Speaker 1>Yea.

0:44:22.520 --> 0:44:24.440
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I was fighttering, Yeah, but.

0:44:25.920 --> 0:44:29.120
<v Speaker 1>Johnny Johnny gave me an insight, took.

0:44:28.960 --> 0:44:30.960
<v Speaker 2>Me over the man. He really took me under his

0:44:31.520 --> 0:44:33.799
<v Speaker 2>wing mate. He was. He was such a champion mate.

0:44:33.960 --> 0:44:36.200
<v Speaker 1>And George Piggins didn't talk to him for a week. Yeah,

0:44:36.600 --> 0:44:39.120
<v Speaker 1>but in the end he'd be Gradually he.

0:44:39.120 --> 0:44:41.719
<v Speaker 2>Was a champion man. You know, I played I went

0:44:41.760 --> 0:44:43.480
<v Speaker 2>to Wigand too. That was at the end of eighty six.

0:44:43.920 --> 0:44:46.960
<v Speaker 2>That was great, that was wonderful. That's why I teamed

0:44:47.000 --> 0:44:49.880
<v Speaker 2>up with I met Graham Lowe. I'm still best friends

0:44:49.880 --> 0:44:50.600
<v Speaker 2>with Lowie.

0:44:50.360 --> 0:44:51.840
<v Speaker 1>Now from New Zealand.

0:44:54.680 --> 0:44:58.560
<v Speaker 2>The whole Weigand experience was quite quite extraordinary. Ters like

0:44:58.800 --> 0:45:02.319
<v Speaker 2>that was an eighty six we played against the Kangaroos. Yeah,

0:45:02.400 --> 0:45:04.400
<v Speaker 2>that was probably one of my best games I think

0:45:04.440 --> 0:45:07.680
<v Speaker 2>I'd ever played against the Kangaroos. Again, it was one

0:45:07.719 --> 0:45:10.279
<v Speaker 2>of those moments for me where I just started to

0:45:10.680 --> 0:45:15.399
<v Speaker 2>find myself, find my ability and have confidence in myself. Yeah. Yeah,

0:45:15.440 --> 0:45:17.680
<v Speaker 2>I've been I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate.

0:45:17.960 --> 0:45:21.719
<v Speaker 1>What are you Your teammates, your teammates at South Ye

0:45:22.000 --> 0:45:25.040
<v Speaker 1>Souse You hadn't come out publicly at that point in time,

0:45:25.440 --> 0:45:29.239
<v Speaker 1>but I think you described as the world's best.

0:45:29.080 --> 0:45:32.640
<v Speaker 2>Or worst worst kept secret secret. Yeah, yeah, I mean

0:45:33.480 --> 0:45:37.279
<v Speaker 2>Souse is. I don't know how to explain it. I

0:45:37.280 --> 0:45:39.920
<v Speaker 2>mean I remember George Pickers took me aside at training

0:45:39.960 --> 0:45:43.279
<v Speaker 2>one day, this has been about eighty seven and just

0:45:43.360 --> 0:45:45.040
<v Speaker 2>mentioned it to me. He said, oh, there's a lot

0:45:45.040 --> 0:45:48.319
<v Speaker 2>of stories about you. He was he was, and he

0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:50.799
<v Speaker 2>was doing it solely to protect me, right, like you know,

0:45:51.360 --> 0:45:55.239
<v Speaker 2>he was from that generation. He's like, you know, it's

0:45:55.239 --> 0:45:57.280
<v Speaker 2>not a good look for you. Whatever. You know, you've

0:45:57.280 --> 0:45:59.840
<v Speaker 2>been seeing and he didn't. He wasn't asking me if

0:45:59.880 --> 0:46:01.839
<v Speaker 2>I okay. He just knew I'd been going out doors

0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:03.640
<v Speaker 2>for straight and I just said, George, I'm playing good

0:46:03.640 --> 0:46:05.560
<v Speaker 2>foot mate, like this is about it would have been

0:46:05.560 --> 0:46:08.800
<v Speaker 2>about eighty seven. I said, I'm playing pretty good footy.

0:46:08.840 --> 0:46:12.719
<v Speaker 2>I know. You said yeah, just what I'm here, you know,

0:46:12.880 --> 0:46:14.799
<v Speaker 2>and I and he was like, yeah, you're right mate,

0:46:14.880 --> 0:46:17.000
<v Speaker 2>Like he was really like that, like it's always like

0:46:17.080 --> 0:46:19.640
<v Speaker 2>you had that you know what, you're right you're playing

0:46:20.960 --> 0:46:23.839
<v Speaker 2>And what I mean is like he's like, that's why

0:46:23.880 --> 0:46:25.560
<v Speaker 2>you're playing good footy. Keep you on that, like it

0:46:25.640 --> 0:46:27.040
<v Speaker 2>was one of those. It was one of those moments

0:46:27.120 --> 0:46:30.000
<v Speaker 2>he's just like like I was really comfortable with like

0:46:30.520 --> 0:46:32.319
<v Speaker 2>that's what I mean. I was just like I think

0:46:32.320 --> 0:46:34.520
<v Speaker 2>it kind of He's like, oh no, he's right, he's

0:46:34.560 --> 0:46:37.640
<v Speaker 2>playing good footy. He's obviously like whatever you're doing, he

0:46:37.719 --> 0:46:39.520
<v Speaker 2>must be doing it right. You get what I'm saying.

0:46:39.680 --> 0:46:42.480
<v Speaker 2>It was like he wasn't like at first where he

0:46:42.600 --> 0:46:44.720
<v Speaker 2>was like you he probably shouldn't be done. I just jewish,

0:46:44.719 --> 0:46:46.920
<v Speaker 2>but I'm playing good foot mat like like I'm happy,

0:46:47.000 --> 0:46:50.319
<v Speaker 2>and he was like you know what. It was one

0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:52.919
<v Speaker 2>of those and one of those learning moments for me too.

0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:57.520
<v Speaker 2>You know. I was just like because because yeah, I was,

0:46:57.760 --> 0:47:01.279
<v Speaker 2>I was always uncomfortable with those two worlds clash, like yeah,

0:47:01.280 --> 0:47:05.839
<v Speaker 2>it wasn't. And then in eighty nine and ninety when

0:47:05.880 --> 0:47:07.640
<v Speaker 2>I left the house together manly, I mean I was

0:47:07.719 --> 0:47:10.040
<v Speaker 2>quite out on the scene, like like I used to

0:47:10.080 --> 0:47:14.839
<v Speaker 2>take partners to funk like it was it's hard to explain.

0:47:16.000 --> 0:47:16.239
<v Speaker 1>It was.

0:47:16.280 --> 0:47:19.120
<v Speaker 2>It was like and journals I spoke in the journeys

0:47:19.120 --> 0:47:21.440
<v Speaker 2>always wanted to ask me. But but and they've always

0:47:21.440 --> 0:47:23.279
<v Speaker 2>said that they wanted to respect that it was my

0:47:23.280 --> 0:47:27.000
<v Speaker 2>privacy as well, which is kind of nice, right, Yeah,

0:47:27.120 --> 0:47:28.040
<v Speaker 2>But it.

0:47:28.000 --> 0:47:30.680
<v Speaker 1>Would have been tough in that environment with that just

0:47:30.719 --> 0:47:33.400
<v Speaker 1>hovering around, because you know, we talk about you had

0:47:33.400 --> 0:47:35.960
<v Speaker 1>a lot of yappy players back then, but like I

0:47:35.960 --> 0:47:39.319
<v Speaker 1>could imagine on the on the football field or not

0:47:39.440 --> 0:47:41.200
<v Speaker 1>the players of people in the grads, yea.

0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:44.640
<v Speaker 2>And that's the other thing, but that's that was the

0:47:44.680 --> 0:47:47.120
<v Speaker 2>one thing you did you to cut me, is like

0:47:47.400 --> 0:47:50.280
<v Speaker 2>you can't you know, I couldn't protect people I cared

0:47:50.320 --> 0:47:53.400
<v Speaker 2>for from that, like my mom and dad and family

0:47:53.440 --> 0:47:55.080
<v Speaker 2>and friends, and when they used to have to listen

0:47:55.120 --> 0:47:57.880
<v Speaker 2>to that stuff, and you know, like, I love them,

0:47:57.880 --> 0:48:01.120
<v Speaker 2>but you can't protect them from that. Just like in

0:48:01.200 --> 0:48:02.799
<v Speaker 2>eight seven when I told you know, when I came

0:48:02.840 --> 0:48:04.919
<v Speaker 2>out my dad we spoke about it. So I can't

0:48:04.920 --> 0:48:07.200
<v Speaker 2>protect you against that, Like, because how's it going to

0:48:07.360 --> 0:48:09.960
<v Speaker 2>how's it going to affect us? I'm like, I don't know, mam,

0:48:10.239 --> 0:48:11.719
<v Speaker 2>but I can't protect you against that.

0:48:11.800 --> 0:48:14.560
<v Speaker 1>And that that must have hurt you because you can

0:48:14.640 --> 0:48:15.480
<v Speaker 1>look after yourself.

0:48:15.560 --> 0:48:18.799
<v Speaker 2>But that's everyone who's had anyone who's different, has any

0:48:18.840 --> 0:48:21.960
<v Speaker 2>sort of like that. That is definitely that is anyone

0:48:22.000 --> 0:48:27.680
<v Speaker 2>who's dealing with any sort of identity. I mean they're

0:48:27.680 --> 0:48:31.200
<v Speaker 2>dealing with themselves, they're also dealing with it on behalf

0:48:31.239 --> 0:48:32.399
<v Speaker 2>of people they care about.

0:48:32.440 --> 0:48:34.680
<v Speaker 1>You Get what I'm saying is, yeah, so they're being

0:48:34.760 --> 0:48:39.800
<v Speaker 1>dragged into into your your world as well. So with

0:48:39.800 --> 0:48:42.840
<v Speaker 1>with Souse when you went to when you went to Manly,

0:48:42.920 --> 0:48:44.560
<v Speaker 1>is that when you you came out? Well, what I

0:48:44.600 --> 0:48:47.680
<v Speaker 1>was going to do and why did you? Well?

0:48:47.760 --> 0:48:50.200
<v Speaker 2>I was one of the reasons. It's also just the

0:48:50.200 --> 0:48:54.360
<v Speaker 2>money I left house for. I left because I was

0:48:54.400 --> 0:48:56.160
<v Speaker 2>going to When I was going to Manly, I knew

0:48:56.200 --> 0:48:58.000
<v Speaker 2>Graham Lowe was going to be there as well. Low

0:48:58.040 --> 0:49:00.319
<v Speaker 2>He didn't know I was going, but I a really

0:49:00.320 --> 0:49:04.920
<v Speaker 2>good friendship with him. I was going to come out

0:49:04.960 --> 0:49:08.560
<v Speaker 2>in nineteen ninety, like when I left him, come out publicly.

0:49:09.120 --> 0:49:11.480
<v Speaker 2>But I'd always had this thing as a young person

0:49:11.680 --> 0:49:13.680
<v Speaker 2>and with my mom and dad that I shouldn't have

0:49:13.719 --> 0:49:15.560
<v Speaker 2>to come out, Like like I said to my mom

0:49:15.600 --> 0:49:17.640
<v Speaker 2>and dad, whoever I bring home should be good enough

0:49:17.640 --> 0:49:19.440
<v Speaker 2>for you. Like if I say, mom and Dad, this

0:49:19.480 --> 0:49:21.480
<v Speaker 2>is my partner, that should be enough, Like I've always

0:49:21.480 --> 0:49:23.799
<v Speaker 2>been like I was always like that, but I've seen

0:49:24.040 --> 0:49:27.640
<v Speaker 2>I since that visibility is really important as well, Like

0:49:28.480 --> 0:49:31.000
<v Speaker 2>you have to accept that, like I used to be

0:49:31.080 --> 0:49:33.080
<v Speaker 2>like that, Like it doesn't matter who I bring home. Yeah,

0:49:33.160 --> 0:49:35.360
<v Speaker 2>if this is my partner, this is my partner regardless,

0:49:35.560 --> 0:49:37.440
<v Speaker 2>like going to the footy stuff, I shouldn't have to

0:49:37.480 --> 0:49:40.640
<v Speaker 2>explain explain, like I said to George. But I'm happy mate,

0:49:40.640 --> 0:49:45.560
<v Speaker 2>like and I do regret that. So but I kind

0:49:45.600 --> 0:49:47.279
<v Speaker 2>of made my mind up in eighty nine and in

0:49:47.400 --> 0:49:49.520
<v Speaker 2>eighty nine early ninety that I was going to come

0:49:49.560 --> 0:49:53.239
<v Speaker 2>out publicly and just but then over in England and

0:49:53.440 --> 0:49:57.200
<v Speaker 2>justin fashion you Premier League. Yeah, he was the first

0:49:57.239 --> 0:50:01.640
<v Speaker 2>man who he came out in ninety ninety as a

0:50:01.640 --> 0:50:05.720
<v Speaker 2>gay man, the first man in professional team sport internationally,

0:50:06.400 --> 0:50:09.520
<v Speaker 2>and he was brutalized by the English press Fleet Street.

0:50:09.560 --> 0:50:14.160
<v Speaker 2>That was terrible, mate, and the support that this supporter's

0:50:14.160 --> 0:50:16.400
<v Speaker 2>base were awful to him. And this is back in

0:50:16.440 --> 0:50:20.240
<v Speaker 2>the time before as I put to my mobile phone,

0:50:21.080 --> 0:50:23.719
<v Speaker 2>before phones, like if you follow the story, you had

0:50:23.719 --> 0:50:25.560
<v Speaker 2>to read it in the newspaper, watch it on TV,

0:50:25.719 --> 0:50:28.680
<v Speaker 2>you listen to it on the radio. He was treated

0:50:28.800 --> 0:50:33.680
<v Speaker 2>terribly by the supporters of the game, and in fairness

0:50:33.719 --> 0:50:36.759
<v Speaker 2>looking back now, and he didn't handle it very well.

0:50:37.320 --> 0:50:40.120
<v Speaker 2>I thank himself and a lot of the stories that

0:50:40.160 --> 0:50:45.000
<v Speaker 2>were released, I thought he could have made the situation

0:50:45.160 --> 0:50:50.000
<v Speaker 2>easier for himself. He came out in nineteen ninety, retired

0:50:50.000 --> 0:50:52.560
<v Speaker 2>in ninety four. That's a year I came out and

0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:55.480
<v Speaker 2>died of suicide ninety eight. That is such a familiar

0:50:55.480 --> 0:50:58.680
<v Speaker 2>gay story. Regardless of it, that is such a familiar

0:50:58.680 --> 0:51:03.239
<v Speaker 2>gay story, and anyone and people listening who are particularly

0:51:03.239 --> 0:51:05.360
<v Speaker 2>of my era, would I would understand that it is

0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:09.080
<v Speaker 2>such that that's not shocking. It is shocking, but it's

0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:12.320
<v Speaker 2>not shocking. I've heard that story multiple times from different people,

0:51:12.480 --> 0:51:16.839
<v Speaker 2>you know, So yeah, that's yeah, and then when when

0:51:16.880 --> 0:51:18.360
<v Speaker 2>I saw the way that he was being treated, I

0:51:18.360 --> 0:51:21.080
<v Speaker 2>was like, I don't think that my parents would. It

0:51:21.120 --> 0:51:22.600
<v Speaker 2>wasn't about me. I was just like I was worried

0:51:22.600 --> 0:51:24.719
<v Speaker 2>about my parents and my family, like having to deal

0:51:24.719 --> 0:51:25.719
<v Speaker 2>with all that stuff, you know.

0:51:25.800 --> 0:51:27.880
<v Speaker 1>And would I would imagine was there a part of

0:51:27.920 --> 0:51:30.320
<v Speaker 1>you that's going, well, whose business is it? Anyway?

0:51:30.440 --> 0:51:31.920
<v Speaker 2>That's what I mean, That's how I was.

0:51:32.000 --> 0:51:33.879
<v Speaker 1>That's how I call a press conference and go.

0:51:34.000 --> 0:51:36.000
<v Speaker 2>That's what That's what I mean, Like you just have

0:51:36.080 --> 0:51:38.759
<v Speaker 2>to accept, like why am I? But but I did

0:51:38.840 --> 0:51:42.360
<v Speaker 2>realize like visibility, and that's that is my one regret

0:51:42.400 --> 0:51:44.240
<v Speaker 2>that I was that that was ever in the closet,

0:51:44.239 --> 0:51:46.799
<v Speaker 2>if that makes sense. I wish I'd been more much

0:51:46.840 --> 0:51:49.479
<v Speaker 2>more public right from the star, right from the start,

0:51:49.640 --> 0:51:51.160
<v Speaker 2>but I kind of came to lot. But I was

0:51:52.120 --> 0:51:53.960
<v Speaker 2>the thing was I was always worried about my parents

0:51:53.960 --> 0:51:56.960
<v Speaker 2>like that because they were so not handling me being gay.

0:51:57.040 --> 0:52:01.719
<v Speaker 2>You know, it's just so embarrassing and uncomfortable for them.

0:52:01.880 --> 0:52:05.960
<v Speaker 1>But it's understanding not from the parents, but from your

0:52:06.000 --> 0:52:08.000
<v Speaker 1>point of view that you want to try and protect them.

0:52:08.040 --> 0:52:11.280
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, but yeah.

0:52:11.080 --> 0:52:14.200
<v Speaker 1>I can understand that it's almost like, well, whose business is it?

0:52:14.239 --> 0:52:16.520
<v Speaker 1>The Yeah, that was my that.

0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:19.560
<v Speaker 2>Was my the way I took it. But yeah, I mean,

0:52:19.719 --> 0:52:22.319
<v Speaker 2>but then in ninety four, I was just like I

0:52:22.400 --> 0:52:24.719
<v Speaker 2>just had enough. I just we were going away in

0:52:24.719 --> 0:52:28.080
<v Speaker 2>the Kangaroo tour and I just thought, I'm going to

0:52:28.120 --> 0:52:30.480
<v Speaker 2>go over there as a gate like as a gay person.

0:52:30.480 --> 0:52:32.200
<v Speaker 2>I'm not going to like like, I'm just going to

0:52:32.280 --> 0:52:35.000
<v Speaker 2>speak openly about it. A shame my partner like he

0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:37.840
<v Speaker 2>like a lot of the players wives and partners go

0:52:37.960 --> 0:52:40.560
<v Speaker 2>over and they stay in hotels somewhere else with Boomberys

0:52:40.560 --> 0:52:42.600
<v Speaker 2>Shane came over and was staying in the burnbut the

0:52:42.680 --> 0:52:45.600
<v Speaker 2>oven was coming to games and that Terry Terry Hill

0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:47.520
<v Speaker 2>was my roomy and Terry and I was gay, and

0:52:47.560 --> 0:52:49.640
<v Speaker 2>like he did know I was gay. There was by

0:52:49.640 --> 0:52:51.680
<v Speaker 2>this stage a whole load of people knew I was gay.

0:52:51.719 --> 0:52:53.920
<v Speaker 2>I was quite open about it, but just I hadn't

0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:58.000
<v Speaker 2>come out officially to the public that if that makes sense.

0:52:58.480 --> 0:53:00.760
<v Speaker 2>I was always pushing back against I was like, because

0:53:00.760 --> 0:53:02.920
<v Speaker 2>I was leading this gay life, right, like everyone knew

0:53:03.080 --> 0:53:06.319
<v Speaker 2>this is like shame was my then partner. Everyone knew

0:53:06.360 --> 0:53:07.120
<v Speaker 2>shame was my page.

0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:09.799
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, not hiding it, but you're not making a public.

0:53:09.680 --> 0:53:12.520
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, I just but but I did realize then it's like,

0:53:13.400 --> 0:53:14.880
<v Speaker 2>you know, it was crazy.

0:53:15.320 --> 0:53:18.800
<v Speaker 1>On that Kangaroo tour and from your from your book,

0:53:19.000 --> 0:53:22.240
<v Speaker 1>I picked up that one of the managers or trainers

0:53:22.320 --> 0:53:26.160
<v Speaker 1>or whatever made issue with the fact that Shane was

0:53:26.200 --> 0:53:29.040
<v Speaker 1>having having.

0:53:28.440 --> 0:53:31.320
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, it's the best story of all time, and it's

0:53:31.440 --> 0:53:34.799
<v Speaker 2>the like, this was the most well, I think it

0:53:34.920 --> 0:53:38.280
<v Speaker 2>is the most significant moment in my Ragbila League career

0:53:38.320 --> 0:53:41.880
<v Speaker 2>as a human being. Yeah, like the change of direction

0:53:42.760 --> 0:53:45.840
<v Speaker 2>we played I was having was we played the first

0:53:45.880 --> 0:53:48.480
<v Speaker 2>Test at Wembley in front of one hundred thousand dollars

0:53:48.800 --> 0:53:51.560
<v Speaker 2>one hundred thousand people. We got we got beat by

0:53:51.640 --> 0:53:54.680
<v Speaker 2>twelve men by the great Britain side, but they played

0:53:54.680 --> 0:53:56.799
<v Speaker 2>out of their skins. But up to that point, my

0:53:56.960 --> 0:53:59.239
<v Speaker 2>form as front row I had been I was like

0:53:59.680 --> 0:54:02.120
<v Speaker 2>the form front right, Like my FHM was great. Like

0:54:02.160 --> 0:54:05.360
<v Speaker 2>I mean I can say that quite modestly, like shaking

0:54:05.400 --> 0:54:08.760
<v Speaker 2>my head, but my form was good. I didn't expect

0:54:08.760 --> 0:54:10.360
<v Speaker 2>to get but I even had a good game in

0:54:10.400 --> 0:54:13.080
<v Speaker 2>that in that test match, right, And I said, like,

0:54:13.440 --> 0:54:16.160
<v Speaker 2>when you're away on two players, wives and partners aren't

0:54:16.160 --> 0:54:18.000
<v Speaker 2>allowed to stay with you. In the hotel, they can

0:54:18.040 --> 0:54:19.759
<v Speaker 2>come and visit and I have lunch and this, that

0:54:19.800 --> 0:54:21.920
<v Speaker 2>and the other. That was always common practice, right, and

0:54:21.960 --> 0:54:26.920
<v Speaker 2>there was plenty of players wives and girlfriends over and Shane.

0:54:27.680 --> 0:54:29.920
<v Speaker 2>Shane was good friends with Terry Hill as well because

0:54:30.000 --> 0:54:32.960
<v Speaker 2>it was because Bozo was coaching Manly at that time.

0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:35.640
<v Speaker 2>My teram Terry. That's who Terry was playing for at

0:54:35.680 --> 0:54:39.760
<v Speaker 2>the time. Shane and Terry were good friends as well. Anyway,

0:54:39.760 --> 0:54:42.560
<v Speaker 2>after the first game, I love telling this story because

0:54:42.560 --> 0:54:47.400
<v Speaker 2>it's it's just that the respect that that that I

0:54:47.480 --> 0:54:51.200
<v Speaker 2>have for both this anyway, so you know, we played

0:54:51.200 --> 0:54:54.360
<v Speaker 2>the first test match, got beat. I wasn't expecting to

0:54:54.360 --> 0:54:56.720
<v Speaker 2>get to get dropped. And when you're a sports person,

0:54:56.760 --> 0:55:00.920
<v Speaker 2>everything's about playing test footy and like playing it the elite, right,

0:55:00.920 --> 0:55:03.319
<v Speaker 2>It's all that's what you're focused on. It's like, you know,

0:55:03.480 --> 0:55:05.880
<v Speaker 2>like so and he gets in the way that like

0:55:06.000 --> 0:55:10.959
<v Speaker 2>it's like it's it's catastrophic. On the Tuesday, Wednesday, after

0:55:11.000 --> 0:55:13.160
<v Speaker 2>the test match, I get we get a phone call

0:55:13.200 --> 0:55:15.480
<v Speaker 2>and Terry picks up the phone. This is back when

0:55:15.480 --> 0:55:18.480
<v Speaker 2>we used to have like literal real phones, have room

0:55:18.560 --> 0:55:22.360
<v Speaker 2>phones and he says, oh, bows, I'll put him on

0:55:22.440 --> 0:55:24.680
<v Speaker 2>and he like he puts the like puts the phone

0:55:24.680 --> 0:55:27.520
<v Speaker 2>out of and he starts slipping his throat like he's

0:55:27.520 --> 0:55:29.959
<v Speaker 2>going to catch it, you know. I get the phone,

0:55:30.000 --> 0:55:33.000
<v Speaker 2>I say bows and he says, robot made. I need

0:55:33.040 --> 0:55:36.239
<v Speaker 2>you to come up and see me straight away. I'm like, oh, okay, Now,

0:55:36.320 --> 0:55:40.719
<v Speaker 2>anyone who knows Bobby Fulton bozo like he's in a

0:55:40.800 --> 0:55:43.680
<v Speaker 2>mortal right. He literally isn't a mall but he's just

0:55:43.840 --> 0:55:46.640
<v Speaker 2>cool as a cucumber. Nothing gets under his skin. Mate,

0:55:46.640 --> 0:55:49.080
<v Speaker 2>always everything that was always fine. I had a really

0:55:49.120 --> 0:55:54.160
<v Speaker 2>good relationship with him. And my initial thought is a ship,

0:55:54.280 --> 0:55:56.080
<v Speaker 2>is he going to cut me? You drop me? And

0:55:56.120 --> 0:55:58.600
<v Speaker 2>like I said about earlier about the elite sports person,

0:55:58.800 --> 0:56:01.759
<v Speaker 2>and that's all I was, and I'm justified. So he

0:56:01.800 --> 0:56:09.239
<v Speaker 2>come and I played for animal skin anyway. So I

0:56:09.360 --> 0:56:13.920
<v Speaker 2>go up and obviously is in the penhouse up to

0:56:14.719 --> 0:56:17.560
<v Speaker 2>go up to the top level and we'll get out

0:56:17.600 --> 0:56:19.239
<v Speaker 2>the walk out the left and walk to the door

0:56:19.280 --> 0:56:21.799
<v Speaker 2>and the door his door is just ajar, you know,

0:56:21.880 --> 0:56:24.040
<v Speaker 2>like six inches and I look in and then like this,

0:56:25.080 --> 0:56:27.839
<v Speaker 2>Bobby Fulton cools the cucumber. He's pacing the room. Right,

0:56:28.280 --> 0:56:30.880
<v Speaker 2>this is not like but this is not Bobby Fulton stuff.

0:56:31.000 --> 0:56:32.719
<v Speaker 2>He's pacing and I felt like I was stood there

0:56:32.719 --> 0:56:35.759
<v Speaker 2>for ages watching him patients and I'm sweating and what's

0:56:35.800 --> 0:56:38.520
<v Speaker 2>going on? And i'mknock on the door and he said, Robie,

0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:41.880
<v Speaker 2>come in, sit down, mate, sit down, and he starts

0:56:41.920 --> 0:56:44.560
<v Speaker 2>pacing the room again, just like rubbing his beard. And

0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:48.319
<v Speaker 2>by this stage now I'm thinking there's there's more going

0:56:48.360 --> 0:56:50.680
<v Speaker 2>on here. There's something happened to my mom and dad

0:56:50.760 --> 0:56:53.399
<v Speaker 2>or something. I'm thinking maybe there's some bad he's got.

0:56:53.480 --> 0:56:56.160
<v Speaker 2>I said, just stop, what's what's happening? Just just tell

0:56:56.200 --> 0:56:59.080
<v Speaker 2>me what's going on. This is not good. And he

0:56:59.080 --> 0:57:01.800
<v Speaker 2>stops and he looks at and he just says, you

0:57:01.880 --> 0:57:04.279
<v Speaker 2>gotta understand. This is the hardest conversation this man's ever

0:57:04.280 --> 0:57:07.760
<v Speaker 2>had in his life. He looks at me, he says, Robert,

0:57:08.320 --> 0:57:11.000
<v Speaker 2>you know what that in my day? I don't care. Mate,

0:57:11.600 --> 0:57:14.600
<v Speaker 2>I'm like, what are you talking about it? He says,

0:57:15.960 --> 0:57:23.560
<v Speaker 2>you and Shane, my god, thanks both, thank you, thank

0:57:23.600 --> 0:57:27.120
<v Speaker 2>you for saying that. Mate. That's he said, mate. But

0:57:27.200 --> 0:57:29.560
<v Speaker 2>he's not allowed to stay within the hotel. Mate, you

0:57:29.640 --> 0:57:33.200
<v Speaker 2>know the rules web money. You've let me down. I said,

0:57:33.400 --> 0:57:35.040
<v Speaker 2>he's not base he's staying at the B and B

0:57:35.200 --> 0:57:37.280
<v Speaker 2>up the road. He just popped in every couple of days.

0:57:37.320 --> 0:57:40.120
<v Speaker 2>Said he says, so someone's give me the wrong information

0:57:40.200 --> 0:57:44.680
<v Speaker 2>that I said, yeah, he said, all right, crab like

0:57:44.760 --> 0:57:45.360
<v Speaker 2>starts copying.

0:57:45.400 --> 0:57:47.280
<v Speaker 3>He said, I knew you wouldn't let me down and

0:57:47.720 --> 0:57:50.640
<v Speaker 3>said he's like, I knew you were three players. Said

0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:52.080
<v Speaker 3>I don't know what I was carried on for like

0:57:52.480 --> 0:57:55.800
<v Speaker 3>and it was like he did this whole like theatrical things,

0:57:55.880 --> 0:57:58.360
<v Speaker 3>like he's doing cartwheels on this and I it was

0:57:58.400 --> 0:57:59.320
<v Speaker 3>just one of those moments.

0:57:59.360 --> 0:58:01.160
<v Speaker 2>I just like he stopped and I just said to

0:58:01.240 --> 0:58:04.880
<v Speaker 2>him the bows, thank you mate, I mean, thank you mate.

0:58:04.920 --> 0:58:06.600
<v Speaker 2>I can't tell you what that meant to me. He's like,

0:58:06.960 --> 0:58:10.040
<v Speaker 2>all good mate, Yeah, no worries. That was but it

0:58:10.120 --> 0:58:12.480
<v Speaker 2>was the first time in my life I felt It's

0:58:12.600 --> 0:58:14.919
<v Speaker 2>hard to explain to someone. It was the first time

0:58:15.200 --> 0:58:18.400
<v Speaker 2>in my life I felt validated. And this sounds a

0:58:18.440 --> 0:58:21.240
<v Speaker 2>bit dicky and say as a gay man like who

0:58:21.320 --> 0:58:23.000
<v Speaker 2>was a rugby league player and.

0:58:22.880 --> 0:58:25.600
<v Speaker 1>Putting Bobby Fault in context, he is a legend.

0:58:27.360 --> 0:58:29.080
<v Speaker 2>He was worried. That was the footing. He was my

0:58:29.160 --> 0:58:31.120
<v Speaker 2>coach at Manly. I mean Shane used to be that

0:58:31.200 --> 0:58:33.720
<v Speaker 2>the mascot, you know, the guy in the big an

0:58:33.720 --> 0:58:35.520
<v Speaker 2>eagle soup with wings and like.

0:58:35.640 --> 0:58:38.800
<v Speaker 1>Doing car I'm sure there was.

0:58:38.240 --> 0:58:42.880
<v Speaker 2>Everyone was friendly with Shane, like Shane unfortunately passed away

0:58:42.920 --> 0:58:45.280
<v Speaker 2>last year, had a heart attack, but we were best friends.

0:58:45.320 --> 0:58:49.560
<v Speaker 2>We stayed very good friends. But it was just that moment, mate,

0:58:49.560 --> 0:58:52.600
<v Speaker 2>I just like, like I remember like leaving that room

0:58:52.640 --> 0:58:55.280
<v Speaker 2>ten foot tall man, just feeling like I'm just loving bows,

0:58:55.320 --> 0:58:58.360
<v Speaker 2>just like feeling, oh, you get it, mate, you finally

0:58:58.400 --> 0:58:58.760
<v Speaker 2>get it.

0:58:59.040 --> 0:59:01.840
<v Speaker 1>Because it was always an uncomfortable.

0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:04.600
<v Speaker 2>Situation for people to navigate you and I understood that,

0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:07.360
<v Speaker 2>but it was just like I can't. I just I

0:59:07.400 --> 0:59:09.640
<v Speaker 2>played in every test match like like he didn't drop

0:59:09.680 --> 0:59:13.080
<v Speaker 2>me or you like, we ended up winning the series

0:59:13.080 --> 0:59:14.880
<v Speaker 2>to one. We went over to France, I played a

0:59:14.880 --> 0:59:17.160
<v Speaker 2>couple we played a couple of games and test test

0:59:17.200 --> 0:59:20.400
<v Speaker 2>matches over there as well. But it was just wonderful, mate.

0:59:20.520 --> 0:59:23.200
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, I can see how animated you are just thinking

0:59:23.240 --> 0:59:27.360
<v Speaker 1>about it must have been just a real off way

0:59:27.440 --> 0:59:30.680
<v Speaker 1>off the shoulders and like when when you had come

0:59:30.720 --> 0:59:31.920
<v Speaker 1>out and how.

0:59:32.040 --> 0:59:34.480
<v Speaker 2>Human I came back, like it really hit that, like

0:59:34.520 --> 0:59:37.560
<v Speaker 2>because I because like BOS made it easy for me too,

0:59:37.600 --> 0:59:40.640
<v Speaker 2>because he must have spoked, because I like, later on

0:59:40.680 --> 0:59:42.960
<v Speaker 2>I spoke, I'm just going to be game mate, like

0:59:42.960 --> 0:59:44.760
<v Speaker 2>like it was kind of weird having that conversation with

0:59:44.760 --> 0:59:46.920
<v Speaker 2>Bobby Film. I'm just going to be game mate, Like

0:59:47.000 --> 0:59:49.320
<v Speaker 2>it sounds like a weird thing to say. I just

0:59:49.880 --> 0:59:52.760
<v Speaker 2>I just like anyway, he said, that's all good, Robbie,

0:59:53.040 --> 0:59:55.760
<v Speaker 2>like he had a word with a couple of Janneys.

0:59:55.840 --> 0:59:58.920
<v Speaker 2>He made it really, he made it really, he just

0:59:58.920 --> 1:00:01.120
<v Speaker 2>just he made it. He made it happen, like not

1:00:01.200 --> 1:00:04.240
<v Speaker 2>made it happen. But I told him that made I

1:00:04.280 --> 1:00:06.800
<v Speaker 2>shouldn't have to This is what you gotta understand with me, mate,

1:00:06.800 --> 1:00:09.000
<v Speaker 2>I shouldn't have to come out mate. Yeah, like this

1:00:09.080 --> 1:00:11.760
<v Speaker 2>is like I feel like I'm almost betraying myself here.

1:00:11.800 --> 1:00:14.760
<v Speaker 2>Like it's he kind of got it, like and I

1:00:14.840 --> 1:00:17.320
<v Speaker 2>just just think about that moment. But it's like you

1:00:17.400 --> 1:00:19.600
<v Speaker 2>understood it, mate, Like it's just I'm playing good footy.

1:00:19.640 --> 1:00:21.880
<v Speaker 2>That was that George Piggins moment again, mate, Yeah, where

1:00:21.880 --> 1:00:25.120
<v Speaker 2>George you know what I mean? Where George even realized, oh, yeah,

1:00:25.120 --> 1:00:27.480
<v Speaker 2>you're playing good footy. This is all this is about, really,

1:00:27.720 --> 1:00:29.120
<v Speaker 2>like you know what I mean? It was almost that

1:00:29.240 --> 1:00:31.640
<v Speaker 2>juggle in his mind. It's just I've been very lucky.

1:00:31.720 --> 1:00:36.600
<v Speaker 1>Like well, there's been some good people for you, like supporting,

1:00:36.800 --> 1:00:40.320
<v Speaker 1>supporting people and Terry Hill and others that would talk about.

1:00:40.360 --> 1:00:43.720
<v Speaker 1>But there was also discrimination within the team. And there

1:00:43.760 --> 1:00:46.400
<v Speaker 1>was one again I reference your book, but an incident

1:00:46.720 --> 1:00:49.720
<v Speaker 1>where one of the players I don't know on the

1:00:50.120 --> 1:00:55.440
<v Speaker 1>training field, tempers fled and he said some derogatory comments

1:00:55.560 --> 1:00:59.440
<v Speaker 1>along the lines that you would imagine, and you took

1:00:59.520 --> 1:01:03.120
<v Speaker 1>him the tar after and the thing I like, how

1:01:03.120 --> 1:01:04.680
<v Speaker 1>you took him the task that there's going to be

1:01:04.720 --> 1:01:08.240
<v Speaker 1>consequences if you did that again. There's physical consequences. But

1:01:08.400 --> 1:01:10.680
<v Speaker 1>wake up yourself. It's not just about the impact that

1:01:10.720 --> 1:01:13.200
<v Speaker 1>has on me. It's on the young players and other.

1:01:13.360 --> 1:01:17.040
<v Speaker 2>That's right, mate, Like it's like, you know, I lose language,

1:01:17.080 --> 1:01:20.880
<v Speaker 2>like you can't do you can't do that like people.

1:01:20.920 --> 1:01:23.960
<v Speaker 2>It's quite literally there were people like I don't want

1:01:23.960 --> 1:01:26.520
<v Speaker 2>to get into all those bad stats and statistics made,

1:01:26.520 --> 1:01:29.080
<v Speaker 2>but it's a real thing, mate, Like as again that's

1:01:29.200 --> 1:01:32.280
<v Speaker 2>I said, like a gay person listening to my coming

1:01:32.320 --> 1:01:34.400
<v Speaker 2>out story is so familiar. Listen to that, you know,

1:01:35.000 --> 1:01:37.280
<v Speaker 2>justin fashion your story, it's such a familiar story. It's

1:01:37.320 --> 1:01:40.240
<v Speaker 2>that's real stuff. Man. It's like you know, like it's

1:01:40.280 --> 1:01:43.120
<v Speaker 2>like with the Pride Round with Manly like a couple

1:01:43.160 --> 1:01:47.520
<v Speaker 2>of years ago, you know, with they like and I'm

1:01:47.560 --> 1:01:49.680
<v Speaker 2>not going to sit here criticize any place that's not

1:01:49.840 --> 1:01:50.560
<v Speaker 2>it's not for me.

1:01:50.960 --> 1:01:54.000
<v Speaker 1>And just to explain that if listeners didn't understand what

1:01:54.080 --> 1:01:56.280
<v Speaker 1>happened there and correct me if I'm wrong, that was

1:01:56.320 --> 1:01:59.320
<v Speaker 1>going to be the Pride Round, and certain jerseys were

1:01:59.320 --> 1:02:01.920
<v Speaker 1>made up with about colors or whatever it was. And

1:02:01.960 --> 1:02:04.120
<v Speaker 1>there was a couple of players in the team that

1:02:04.200 --> 1:02:05.480
<v Speaker 1>said they're not going to play.

1:02:05.320 --> 1:02:08.480
<v Speaker 2>Six six of them set out for cultural reasons and

1:02:08.520 --> 1:02:12.080
<v Speaker 2>religious reasons. Right now, how do I put this up?

1:02:13.040 --> 1:02:15.640
<v Speaker 2>There would have been so many, so many young people

1:02:15.760 --> 1:02:18.760
<v Speaker 2>in the regional areas who wouldn't have heard much news

1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:22.160
<v Speaker 2>that that that week. But because those some of those

1:02:22.200 --> 1:02:24.320
<v Speaker 2>younger people were dealing with their own identity and that

1:02:24.440 --> 1:02:26.720
<v Speaker 2>they definitely would have heard that story. Yeah, yeah, you know,

1:02:26.920 --> 1:02:29.720
<v Speaker 2>and like that. It's that's what I'm talking about. That's

1:02:29.720 --> 1:02:33.040
<v Speaker 2>the consequences, you know. Like, and I often feel like

1:02:33.120 --> 1:02:35.520
<v Speaker 2>I because I do a lot of advocacy working in

1:02:35.560 --> 1:02:38.680
<v Speaker 2>around this space in that area. Man, when I talk

1:02:38.760 --> 1:02:42.520
<v Speaker 2>when we talk about having these types of conversations. I

1:02:42.520 --> 1:02:45.760
<v Speaker 2>always feel like for me or for my side or whatever,

1:02:45.800 --> 1:02:48.920
<v Speaker 2>it's not even side, it's just my opinion is I

1:02:48.960 --> 1:02:52.040
<v Speaker 2>feel like I need to be understanding. Just my starting

1:02:52.080 --> 1:02:54.360
<v Speaker 2>point needs to be I need to be understanding of

1:02:54.920 --> 1:02:59.520
<v Speaker 2>other people's potential misunderstanding. Okay, that's my starting point, and

1:02:59.760 --> 1:03:02.000
<v Speaker 2>like you've got to have a conversation. Everything starts with

1:03:02.040 --> 1:03:06.960
<v Speaker 2>a conversation. Yeah, I mean, but it's their statistics are

1:03:07.000 --> 1:03:09.680
<v Speaker 2>still out there and they're still devastating, and you know

1:03:10.160 --> 1:03:15.440
<v Speaker 2>I have lost uh yea, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I

1:03:15.480 --> 1:03:18.600
<v Speaker 2>definitely have lost friends. Like I can't imagine what would

1:03:18.640 --> 1:03:21.120
<v Speaker 2>be losing like a son or a daughter, or.

1:03:22.920 --> 1:03:25.680
<v Speaker 1>The pain pain that causes because some you know, and

1:03:26.120 --> 1:03:28.720
<v Speaker 1>you've there's a lot of other examples. I think you

1:03:28.760 --> 1:03:31.760
<v Speaker 1>were signing signing an autograph the kids after a stay

1:03:31.800 --> 1:03:34.120
<v Speaker 1>of origin Blake and some knuckleheads run up and punch

1:03:34.160 --> 1:03:35.800
<v Speaker 1>in the back of the head and run off, and.

1:03:35.640 --> 1:03:40.600
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, yeah, there was an incident at Saint George. Yeah,

1:03:40.640 --> 1:03:45.400
<v Speaker 2>at halftime, go Rich and I think we were getting

1:03:45.400 --> 1:03:47.040
<v Speaker 2>beaten at the time. At the time, we were a

1:03:47.040 --> 1:03:49.400
<v Speaker 2>couple of points down and as we were walking off

1:03:49.440 --> 1:03:53.560
<v Speaker 2>He just kind of reached over and said saying, I

1:03:53.600 --> 1:03:58.560
<v Speaker 2>overreacted because I jumped. Yeah, and it's just ugly, you know,

1:03:58.680 --> 1:04:01.000
<v Speaker 2>like it's just I get it, like you know, like

1:04:01.120 --> 1:04:05.760
<v Speaker 2>you're talking about I never forget there was a state

1:04:05.760 --> 1:04:11.040
<v Speaker 2>of origin, and like it's funny. I think it's funny.

1:04:11.400 --> 1:04:13.840
<v Speaker 2>But just getting into the showers and one of the

1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:16.760
<v Speaker 2>other players made it very obvious that he was uncomfortable

1:04:16.880 --> 1:04:19.720
<v Speaker 2>with like, and I was just like, make day flatter yourself.

1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:23.360
<v Speaker 2>Trust me, You're safe, you know, trust me. I couldn't

1:04:23.400 --> 1:04:29.040
<v Speaker 2>be that fucking drunk, you know what I mean. You

1:04:29.040 --> 1:04:31.000
<v Speaker 2>know what I mean. And that's what I mean about

1:04:31.040 --> 1:04:33.800
<v Speaker 2>making it about God. You find the humor in it somewhere,

1:04:33.800 --> 1:04:35.720
<v Speaker 2>because even he started laughing, just like.

1:04:37.320 --> 1:04:41.440
<v Speaker 1>I know, I understand. And the irony of the situation

1:04:41.600 --> 1:04:43.880
<v Speaker 1>you found yourself in. You were in a culture that

1:04:44.200 --> 1:04:46.720
<v Speaker 1>would have been out of all the cultures you could

1:04:46.760 --> 1:04:49.400
<v Speaker 1>find yourself in, that would have been one that really struggled.

1:04:49.400 --> 1:04:51.760
<v Speaker 2>But also in the end, when people accepted an embrace,

1:04:51.880 --> 1:04:53.240
<v Speaker 2>it brings the team closer together.

1:04:53.520 --> 1:04:58.520
<v Speaker 1>I mean, I mean that you would have had people wanting, but.

1:04:58.200 --> 1:05:00.480
<v Speaker 2>It just brings the team together to could you know

1:05:02.600 --> 1:05:07.000
<v Speaker 2>Blake's like like Steve Menzies and Terry Hill and Jeff

1:05:07.040 --> 1:05:11.160
<v Speaker 2>two like they were. They were so fantastic, embracing and

1:05:12.480 --> 1:05:15.120
<v Speaker 2>jack girls like they were. It was wonderful. But it

1:05:15.160 --> 1:05:18.840
<v Speaker 2>was I would say mostly a younger the generation younger

1:05:18.840 --> 1:05:22.320
<v Speaker 2>than me, I felt saying to him, maybe because I

1:05:22.440 --> 1:05:25.400
<v Speaker 2>was an older player, maybe you know, maybe I had

1:05:25.840 --> 1:05:28.240
<v Speaker 2>Maybe that's what it was, but I did. I did

1:05:28.440 --> 1:05:32.560
<v Speaker 2>feel it from a younger. Yeah, they it was. It

1:05:32.640 --> 1:05:35.240
<v Speaker 2>was very interesting. Well, the other thing is I keep saying,

1:05:35.240 --> 1:05:37.920
<v Speaker 2>is like, forget the whole gay thing. Like I'm going

1:05:38.000 --> 1:05:39.600
<v Speaker 2>to sound like a dickhead now, but I was playing

1:05:39.640 --> 1:05:42.480
<v Speaker 2>good footing, you know what I mean. That's that's that's

1:05:42.520 --> 1:05:45.080
<v Speaker 2>what this was all about. Like I was playing good football,

1:05:46.040 --> 1:05:48.040
<v Speaker 2>and that's what I'm about. George said, George.

1:05:48.440 --> 1:05:51.640
<v Speaker 1>I don't know, like when, yeah, when that's all said

1:05:51.680 --> 1:05:55.240
<v Speaker 1>and done, that that that was the issue. But look,

1:05:55.360 --> 1:05:58.000
<v Speaker 1>even when even when you came out, there was people

1:05:58.040 --> 1:05:59.720
<v Speaker 1>that wanted you to be on the soap box a

1:05:59.760 --> 1:06:02.640
<v Speaker 1>whole time. And it's a personal thing, I would imagine,

1:06:02.680 --> 1:06:06.560
<v Speaker 1>and some like gay journalists or whatever, why aren't you

1:06:06.600 --> 1:06:09.480
<v Speaker 1>speaking out more? And you could sound like you couldn't win.

1:06:09.560 --> 1:06:12.560
<v Speaker 2>Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, yes, yes and no, I

1:06:12.560 --> 1:06:15.960
<v Speaker 2>mean like yeah, like and I got to be honest,

1:06:16.160 --> 1:06:20.600
<v Speaker 2>I still say like it I never felt. I don't

1:06:20.600 --> 1:06:23.480
<v Speaker 2>know how like as I've gotten old, I've learned, you know,

1:06:23.600 --> 1:06:27.160
<v Speaker 2>like I'm because I'm so grateful that I was born gay,

1:06:27.280 --> 1:06:29.280
<v Speaker 2>Like you know, I've become a bit like a bit

1:06:29.320 --> 1:06:31.400
<v Speaker 2>of a super power for me, like the fact that

1:06:31.480 --> 1:06:34.040
<v Speaker 2>I'm just I don't even know what that means, but

1:06:34.080 --> 1:06:37.400
<v Speaker 2>I just feel like it's so enough. It's so it's

1:06:37.440 --> 1:06:39.439
<v Speaker 2>not my mum and dad. But now you know, when

1:06:39.440 --> 1:06:41.680
<v Speaker 2>they learned to embrace it, they became better for it.

1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:44.160
<v Speaker 2>You know, I said a bit earlier about people like

1:06:44.200 --> 1:06:46.800
<v Speaker 2>Johnny Lewis, like you know, I'm a better person for

1:06:46.880 --> 1:06:49.520
<v Speaker 2>knowing Johnny. You know, like that type of thing. You

1:06:49.520 --> 1:06:51.360
<v Speaker 2>get what I mean, And that's what I meant about.

1:06:51.520 --> 1:06:54.560
<v Speaker 2>You asked me what type of person I would hope

1:06:54.560 --> 1:06:56.240
<v Speaker 2>that like people just get to look.

1:06:56.120 --> 1:06:59.280
<v Speaker 1>Well, I think if you're you've walked that path, so

1:06:59.400 --> 1:07:03.920
<v Speaker 1>you understand and the pain of discrimination or anything that

1:07:04.200 --> 1:07:08.160
<v Speaker 1>where people are ostercized for the things, the damage that

1:07:08.160 --> 1:07:08.800
<v Speaker 1>can be done.

1:07:08.800 --> 1:07:11.000
<v Speaker 2>And the damage that is done. Man, I mean, you know,

1:07:11.120 --> 1:07:14.120
<v Speaker 2>like there had been some situations have been really ugly. Well,

1:07:14.280 --> 1:07:15.640
<v Speaker 2>you haven't touched on any of that stuff.

1:07:16.080 --> 1:07:18.840
<v Speaker 1>We're going to touch on it in part two and

1:07:19.480 --> 1:07:23.200
<v Speaker 1>what happened with young Aaron and the impact that had

1:07:23.240 --> 1:07:27.000
<v Speaker 1>on you. But there was that at the time where

1:07:27.080 --> 1:07:29.240
<v Speaker 1>you were coming out and you you were the like

1:07:29.480 --> 1:07:31.800
<v Speaker 1>I'm saying from a member of the public, you were

1:07:31.800 --> 1:07:34.240
<v Speaker 1>the you were the poster boy of rugby league. And

1:07:34.240 --> 1:07:36.680
<v Speaker 1>then when you came out it was big news. Everyone

1:07:36.840 --> 1:07:40.360
<v Speaker 1>everyone knew knew about it. But that was also when

1:07:40.600 --> 1:07:41.560
<v Speaker 1>aids And.

1:07:41.480 --> 1:07:47.280
<v Speaker 2>Then I've been blessed mate that I didn't pick up

1:07:47.280 --> 1:07:50.040
<v Speaker 2>the HIV. Yes, like I had my first two partners

1:07:50.080 --> 1:07:55.080
<v Speaker 2>both passed away with h But I've you know, I

1:07:55.120 --> 1:07:59.400
<v Speaker 2>was quite promiscuous. That's not promiscuous. I was quite in

1:07:59.400 --> 1:08:01.880
<v Speaker 2>the early eighties. It was on Oxford straight.

1:08:02.040 --> 1:08:03.440
<v Speaker 1>But there was a lot of hate put on the

1:08:03.480 --> 1:08:07.400
<v Speaker 1>Gaze because because of that, the misconception whether that's where

1:08:07.640 --> 1:08:10.080
<v Speaker 1>the disease generated from or whatever, But it was all

1:08:10.120 --> 1:08:12.880
<v Speaker 1>caught up in that time, the time and place. It

1:08:12.920 --> 1:08:13.160
<v Speaker 1>was a.

1:08:13.120 --> 1:08:16.200
<v Speaker 2>Difficult the whole bowling ball, the grim.

1:08:17.960 --> 1:08:20.439
<v Speaker 1>Yeah, it was. It was a hard time. And then

1:08:20.479 --> 1:08:24.880
<v Speaker 1>there was also misconceptions on your gay pedophiles. That that's

1:08:24.920 --> 1:08:27.880
<v Speaker 1>another thing that plays into it. So yeah, it was

1:08:28.600 --> 1:08:30.840
<v Speaker 1>a tough period of time you went through.

1:08:31.040 --> 1:08:35.080
<v Speaker 2>But yeah, but you know, I'm I'm great, and yeah

1:08:35.120 --> 1:08:37.559
<v Speaker 2>it sounds weird looking back now I can so I'm grateful.

1:08:38.280 --> 1:08:38.839
<v Speaker 2>I'm grateful.

1:08:39.400 --> 1:08:44.040
<v Speaker 1>Yeah. Well, well we'll come back in part two. And look,

1:08:44.640 --> 1:08:47.800
<v Speaker 1>I say up front that it's going it's hard because

1:08:47.800 --> 1:08:50.640
<v Speaker 1>I know it's had an impact. And you know, we

1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:53.960
<v Speaker 1>sit here with like I Catch Killers, a crime podcast,

1:08:54.240 --> 1:08:56.679
<v Speaker 1>but this is where crime touched you very personally, when

1:08:57.320 --> 1:09:01.000
<v Speaker 1>young Aaron light was was murdered, and we'll talk about that,

1:09:01.479 --> 1:09:04.320
<v Speaker 1>talk about a period of time that you described as

1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:07.400
<v Speaker 1>the most content period of time when you left football

1:09:07.600 --> 1:09:12.040
<v Speaker 1>and you're in Nider doing the acting of training to

1:09:12.080 --> 1:09:14.639
<v Speaker 1>become an actor and all the other things you're doing.

1:09:14.720 --> 1:09:18.000
<v Speaker 1>So if we'll take a break and we'll be back

1:09:18.160 --> 1:09:18.559
<v Speaker 1>shortly