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Speaker 1: The public has had a long held fascination with detectives.

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Speaker 1: Detective see aside of life the average person is never

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Speaker 1: exposed to. I spent thirty four years as a cop.

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Speaker 1: For twenty five of those years I was catching killers.

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Speaker 1: That's what I did for a living. I was a

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Speaker 1: homicide detective. I'm no longer just interviewing bad guys. Instead,

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Speaker 1: I'm taking the public into the world in which I operated.

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Speaker 1: The guests I talk to each week have amazing stories

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Speaker 1: from all sides of the law. The interviews are raw

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Speaker 1: and honest, just like the people I talked to. Some

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Speaker 1: of the content and language might be confronting. That's because

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Speaker 1: no one who comes into contact with crime is left unchanged.

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Speaker 1: Join me now as I take you into this world. Today,

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Speaker 1: I spoke to Iaran Roberts, the former hard man of

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Speaker 1: the NRL. We spoke about his career during a brutal

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Speaker 1: era when on field violence and macho masculinity was a

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Speaker 1: culture Eran also talked about how how difficult was during

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Speaker 1: this time dealing with his sexuality and the consequence has

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Speaker 1: been the first high profile professional sportsman coming out in

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Speaker 1: public as gay. We also had a deeply personal conversation

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Speaker 1: about the emotional impact the murder of seventeen year old

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Speaker 1: Aaron Light, a young man Iaran was very close to,

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Speaker 1: and the remorse he felt following Aaron's brutal murder. Ian

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Speaker 1: also talked about how he only found his true self

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Speaker 1: after rugby league through acting activism and helping others deal

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Speaker 1: with their own insecurities. Before we started this interview and

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Speaker 1: told me nothing was off limits. Well, Iran was true

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Speaker 1: to his word and it has made for a fascinating conversation.

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Speaker 1: I find Ian's story quite inspirational. Have to listen, Iaran Roberts.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to I Catch Killers.

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Speaker 2: It's nice to be here. It's nice to be well.

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Speaker 2: I catch killers. It's been intimidating to be asked to

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Speaker 2: come on, I catch killers.

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Speaker 1: Okay, okay at a police interview room. Let's relax. Only

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Speaker 1: worry when I start to caution you. I've been a

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Speaker 1: big fan of yours for a long time, and I

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Speaker 1: think obviously on the football field, but more for the

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Speaker 1: courage that you took to stand up and be yourself,

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Speaker 1: to be your true self. And I think a lot

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Speaker 1: of people shy away from that. They go through life

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Speaker 1: and yeah, trying to please people. Or conforming to what

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Speaker 1: people want them to be and so full credit to.

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Speaker 2: You, thank you, mate. But I will say I have

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Speaker 2: been very fortunate. I mean it was such a lot.

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Speaker 2: You know, obviously you're referring to my sexuality when I

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Speaker 2: came out, like, I've been very fortunate, mate, I am,

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Speaker 2: and actually I mean I'm sixty. I'm sixty next month, right,

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Speaker 2: So I've been totally like comfortable in my own self

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Speaker 2: now for thirty. You know, even when I was even

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Speaker 2: when I was a kid, I was always completely comfortable

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Speaker 2: like owning it and admitting to myself that I was

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Speaker 2: saying sex attracted. I mean, I like, I've never been

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Speaker 2: any had any internalized homophobia, which I'm really grateful for

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Speaker 2: because a lot of people do have to, you know,

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Speaker 2: to do something, struggle with it, deal with it. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I mean, I I can never so it hasn't been

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Speaker 2: I mean, yes, I've been fortunate, and it's you know,

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Speaker 2: it has been difficult at times, but yeah, I've never

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Speaker 2: had an issue with it. Yeah, I mean I suppose.

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Speaker 2: I mean, even thinking back now, the first time I

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Speaker 2: remember that I was different if if that's I didn't know,

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Speaker 2: if that's the right word way to use that word,

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Speaker 2: but it would have been I would have been seven

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Speaker 2: nineteen seventy two. And I only know that because there

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Speaker 2: was a show called Checkerboard and it was it was

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Speaker 2: It was aired in nineteen seventy two, and I went

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Speaker 2: to the fiftieth anniversary about three years ago of this show.

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Speaker 2: And it was the first and this is why I know.

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Speaker 2: I was seven years old. It was the first time

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Speaker 2: to gay men had kissed on TV. And I was

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Speaker 2: sat in the lounge room with my dad watching it.

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Speaker 2: This is this is gospel and these two men kiss

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Speaker 2: like kissed on TV. And I was like, Oh, that's

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Speaker 2: what I do with my best mate, Barry Riley. You know.

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Speaker 2: It was just kids, kids being kids, right, I just

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Speaker 2: have a bit like and my dad and I just

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Speaker 2: used the language my dad said. My dad was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: these fucking queers make my skin creep, you know, And

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Speaker 2: I was like, Oh, I probably shouldn't tell dad about Barry.

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Speaker 1: Well, you know what I mean.

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Speaker 2: But I mean, I went to that fifteenth anniversary one

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Speaker 2: of that the gentleman Peter is still alive. That was

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Speaker 2: like about three years ago. So I mean, that's but

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Speaker 2: I even knew before that that I was but I

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Speaker 2: also knew that, you know, it was something everyone else

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Speaker 2: had a problem with.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: Obviously my dad's reaction was was just of its day,

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Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, but yeah, I never I never

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Speaker 2: strugg internally, mate. So I've always been really grateful that

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Speaker 2: that I had that makeup, that I didn't challenge myself

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Speaker 2: with it, and I didn't feel that I was in

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Speaker 2: any way dirty or wrong. A lot of people go

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Speaker 2: through that whole experience, yeah.

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Speaker 1: Because you hear a lot of people talk about that

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Speaker 1: type of experience and that they suppress it and fight

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Speaker 1: it and the whole life, and yeah, it's enlightened when

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Speaker 1: they come out, yeah midway through their life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, I've never had that. I've never had that

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Speaker 2: sense of feeling in any way internalized anything negative, you know,

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Speaker 2: like I just haven't. I I consider myself really fortunate.

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Speaker 2: That's why I say unfortunate. I've been fortunate.

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Speaker 1: No, I understand well, As I said, I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get you on for a long time, and the opportunity

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Speaker 1: presented itself beautifully earlier this week, when Johnny had lined

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Speaker 1: us up to do a boxing session together.

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Speaker 2: Johnny lewis so nice to say him, He's like he's

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Speaker 2: one of those rare human beings. I can honestly say

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Speaker 2: I and Johnny is one of those one of those

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Speaker 2: people you meet in life you're a better person for

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Speaker 2: having met Johnny Lewis, like once you've knocked around and

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Speaker 2: like spent some time with him and saying the way

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Speaker 2: he's the way he lives his life in his philosophy,

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Speaker 2: like it's empowered. I mean, you understand what I'm talking.

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Speaker 2: He's one of those rare people. You know. It's like

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Speaker 2: like if he's one of those people that if if

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Speaker 2: someone else ever said something, you know, like negative about Johnny,

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Speaker 2: you have to say, mate, what's wrong with you? Johnny?

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Speaker 2: Like there's you know, you've got that wrong man, Like

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Speaker 2: you've you know, there's something wrong with you, Like Johnny

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Speaker 2: is He's just He's Yeah, he's one of those rare

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Speaker 2: human But I love the guy.

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Speaker 1: I think because he as we're discussing the other other

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Speaker 1: day when we're training, that he's a mental to so

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Speaker 1: many people. But I think I'm looking for what that

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Speaker 1: special magic is and he just accepts people for who

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Speaker 1: he is, and he looks for the good in people,

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Speaker 1: and that that's seems.

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Speaker 2: He doesn't matter to Johnny where you said socially like

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Speaker 2: you know what I mean, as long as you've got

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Speaker 2: a smile on your face and and you're respectful, that's

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Speaker 2: that's yeah, that's everyone's an egal Yeah.

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Speaker 1: It's a good way to go through life, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's great. But I just like it was kind

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Speaker 2: of nice. Could Like I said, I haven't hit the

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Speaker 2: pads ranging for a while, and then ten fifteen minutes

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Speaker 2: into it starts to get back into your body. It's

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Speaker 2: like things get in your body and like anyone that

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Speaker 2: that recall can't and you start a couple of times

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Speaker 2: you hit hit the pads really well and just like

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Speaker 2: you can feel the strength and oh yeah that feels great,

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Speaker 2: you know, I just remember. Yeah, so that was kind

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Speaker 2: of nice. But I will say I'm sixty next month.

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Speaker 2: The day after, oh my god, I felt I felt

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Speaker 2: my shoulders felt like I was one hundred mont I

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Speaker 2: was just.

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Speaker 1: Says something, doesn't you lose it? But I wondered if you, yeah.

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Speaker 2: My shoulders particularly just but I've had issues with my

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Speaker 2: shoulders now for a long time. But I do. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm not twenty, you know, I mean when you're twenty,

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Speaker 2: like when you're fifteen hitting about twenty. You're never going

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Speaker 2: to be fifty and sixty, are you? No, that's just

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Speaker 2: that's for dead people.

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Speaker 1: That's true, right, you can't even think about it.

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Speaker 2: That's never going to happen to you. But yeah, get

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Speaker 2: to your catches as all.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, you're you're a lot of things for a lot

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Speaker 1: of people like you've had. I think even I'm sure

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Speaker 1: you describe yourself as an ordinary man caught up in

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Speaker 1: extraordinary times and things. But you know, you're a footballer,

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Speaker 1: you're an actor, you're an activist. You've come out on

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Speaker 1: so many different issues, and you take a stand on things.

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Speaker 1: I suppose the question and trying to introduce you to

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Speaker 1: the podcast here, how would you describe yourself? It's a

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Speaker 1: tough question.

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Speaker 2: That's a I'm gonna have to memory and come back around.

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Speaker 2: And I had never thought of it like that. I mean,

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Speaker 2: that's really you know, I don't know if anyone's how

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Speaker 2: do I view myself as.

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Speaker 1: I'll help you help you out a bit in terms

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Speaker 1: of what you've done in life, what you've achieved, And

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Speaker 1: you've achieved good things in different different areas, and success

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Speaker 1: is measured in different different ways. But you followed your

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Speaker 1: passions on different things. Do you see yourself as a

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Speaker 1: footballer or do you see yourself as an actor or

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Speaker 1: a combination of all these things.

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Speaker 2: I think you know, people are complex man, Like you know,

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Speaker 2: age changes changing changes as well. My views now, like

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Speaker 2: in lame, will change on Like like I said earlier, mate,

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Speaker 2: you know when you're fifteen to twenty, you're never going

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Speaker 2: to be sixty. Yeah, you know, like everything changes. I yeah,

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Speaker 2: I think I look at my mum and dad and

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Speaker 2: how they struggled, you know, I mean they really struggled.

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Speaker 2: I mean I'm a ten pound pom. My mum and

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Speaker 2: dad came out here. They would have been twenty seven.

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Speaker 2: They came out on a boat, so I would have

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Speaker 2: been about I was about one and a half. I

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Speaker 2: had an older brother, Paul, and an older sister Julie.

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Speaker 2: They were a couple of years older than May. My

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Speaker 2: mom and dad came out here with you know, less

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Speaker 2: than about fifty quid in their pocket. I just and

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Speaker 2: you know, like it's kind of weird, but not weird.

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Speaker 2: Don't I say this one. I'm about to say it's

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Speaker 2: going to sound really negative, Like I grew up and contradictory.

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Speaker 2: I grew up in a very It almost feels uncomfortably

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Speaker 2: saying I just say I grew up in a very racist, misogynistic,

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Speaker 2: homophobic family, but I grew up in a very loving family. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: and it sounds like my mom and dad. The truth

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Speaker 2: is that, you know, my mom and dad left England

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Speaker 2: and they brought their three kids with them because there

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Speaker 2: was too many blacks coming to to London, right, I

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Speaker 2: just be honest. But my mom and dad's journey while

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Speaker 2: being here my dad passed away ten years ago, has

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Speaker 2: been unbelievable, like their journey in themselves. And that you

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Speaker 2: asked me who I was. I think my dad kind

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Speaker 2: of answered that for moment. My dad passed away ten

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Speaker 2: years ago, and just be prior to him passing away,

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Speaker 2: he got interview. The interview was about me, but you

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Speaker 2: know they were asking my dad. And I have a

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Speaker 2: younger sister too. My younger sister, Kyle, was born a

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Speaker 2: couple of years after we got here, so you know

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Speaker 2: I have had two brothers, two sisters and a brother.

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Speaker 2: And the I think this kind of answers you, kind

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Speaker 2: of answers your question, not so much about me, but

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Speaker 2: the way I was brought up and where I like

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Speaker 2: to feel like who I am. The interview, I asked

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Speaker 2: my dad. You know, they said, my dad, you must

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Speaker 2: be very proud of your son and what he's done,

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Speaker 2: you know, referring to me in my situation and my dad,

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Speaker 2: but like it was like the best, the most. My

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Speaker 2: dad was very uneducated, but the answer like it was Shakespearean.

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Speaker 2: My dad said, you know when they said, you know,

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Speaker 2: you must be very proud of your son, and my

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Speaker 2: dad said, I'm equally as proud of all my children.

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Speaker 2: But I am so grateful all that grateful that I

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Speaker 2: was gifted a gay son and I got to see

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Speaker 2: the world as it really is. Wow.

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Speaker 1: That's that's insightful, isn't it.

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Speaker 2: It's true like a bit, but it's like like like adversity,

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Speaker 2: you know, like adversity is what makes us that that's

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Speaker 2: that's what you really see, that's what shines in people.

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Speaker 2: My dad was like say, like I was, like, where

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Speaker 2: did that come from? You said, that's how I feel.

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Speaker 2: He said, that's you know I felt. And my dad

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Speaker 2: was When I first came out to my parents, I

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Speaker 2: didn't they didn't have We didn't talk for a number

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Speaker 2: of years. And that's because that was they fire problems.

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Speaker 2: I was really stubborn. I was always like you'd always said,

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Speaker 2: it didn't matter who I brought home, you know, as

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Speaker 2: I was growing up, you would love them because I

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Speaker 2: brought home someone the same sex. My parents initially, you know,

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Speaker 2: wouldn't allowed my then partner into the house. And I

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Speaker 2: saw we didn't. We didn't see each other or speak

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Speaker 2: for a number of years. But just their journey look

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Speaker 2: like that process of allowing change to happen, Like, I

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Speaker 2: think that is what you know, sometimes you just got

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Speaker 2: to allow change to happen. It's like you don't have

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Speaker 2: to agree with someone, but you can always have a

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Speaker 2: conversation with someone. Yeah, I don't know if that's answering.

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Speaker 1: Well, you can have some kindness and just whinding it

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Speaker 1: back a little bit with your your parents coming out.

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Speaker 1: I am always amazed that people that can establish a

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Speaker 1: new life in another country. It takes courage, doesn't it. Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: people say there's life can be hard. I can't even comprehend,

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Speaker 1: you know, the courage it takes to just be terrifying,

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Speaker 1: right and after another country, Yeah, one terrifying, the other

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Speaker 1: thing about the values and you talk about that your

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Speaker 1: parents had they said racist views, and that it's also

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Speaker 1: a generational thing, isn't it that the world has changed,

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Speaker 1: Like I give, I hear comments from people, you know,

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Speaker 1: a generational two ahead, I think you can't say that anymore. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but on.

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Speaker 2: The wrong side wrong side history.

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Speaker 1: I dare say, you know, in thirty years time, there'll

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Speaker 1: be comments that we're saying now and people just look

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Speaker 1: at those two dinosaurs.

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Speaker 2: That's not the way you're meant to.

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Speaker 1: Meant meant to. A question that might be easier to answer,

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Speaker 1: is what's scarier walking out on the football field about

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Speaker 1: to face an angry pack, walking on stage, walking onto

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Speaker 1: a stage with a live audience.

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Speaker 2: You know, I think for either of those two situations

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Speaker 2: can be terrifying the first initially, but I think everything

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Speaker 2: with like in confidence, everything becomes unbelievably powerful and engaging.

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Speaker 2: And yeah, I don't mean, you know what the word is,

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Speaker 2: but it becomes exciting. I mean, I yeah, like initially

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Speaker 2: playing rugby league in the first few times you played

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Speaker 2: first grade, it's terrifying, you know, for the first twelve months.

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Speaker 2: Really walking on stage the first few times as well,

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Speaker 2: But there comes up, there comes like it's almost like

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Speaker 2: an evolution within yourself of growth or I don't even

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Speaker 2: know if that's the right description, but confidence, once you

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Speaker 2: start finding your own way, finding your own mans, finding

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Speaker 2: your own path and the way you do things. There

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Speaker 2: was you know, there was a number of times during

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Speaker 2: my playing career that I that I was playing like

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Speaker 2: with and I think any any sports person will understand

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Speaker 2: what I'm about to say. When you play with like

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Speaker 2: just supreme confidence, So like you know, you hear that expression,

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Speaker 2: things slow down and you just get into this flow. Well,

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Speaker 2: it really does. Like there was some you know, it's

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Speaker 2: probably happened to me half a dozen times in my

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Speaker 2: playing career. I had patches for like a few months

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Speaker 2: where everything was just I was in control. I was

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Speaker 2: totally confident that my ability or it totally knew what

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Speaker 2: I was going to do before I did it. And

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Speaker 2: that kind of happened. But it took a long time

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Speaker 2: to get to that point as well. You know, my

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Speaker 2: initial couple of years at South I started playing first

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Speaker 2: grade at House in eighty six. You know, I was

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Speaker 2: like I was terrified of my own teammates, That's.

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Speaker 1: True, but they were scar it was I was.

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Speaker 2: I was in this pack with Les Davison, like David Boyle,

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Speaker 2: Mario Fanic, Wayne Chisholm. You know, I was just like

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Speaker 2: I was scared of like I was playing in the

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Speaker 2: same team. It was just like and they had a

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Speaker 2: really like I kind of caught that tail into that,

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Speaker 2: that generation of that the way the game was played

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Speaker 2: played played there.

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Speaker 1: I was brutal.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, there was a lot of like cheap shots and.

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Speaker 1: No place for the faint heart.

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Speaker 2: You know, it is, it is what it is. But

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Speaker 2: I mean I, as a young guy might coming into

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Speaker 2: the and into this house pack. That was the first

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Speaker 2: year George Piggins was there, and Gus Goob was in

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Speaker 2: the second row as well as his final year, and

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Speaker 2: he kind of coached the team. But I had a

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Speaker 2: high work rate. I didn't. I wasn't really I mean

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Speaker 2: I like thirty forty tackles whatever and number hit. That

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Speaker 2: was always my style player as a young guy. But

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Speaker 2: I did learn after a while you kind of had

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Speaker 2: to It's almost like you had to mold you had

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Speaker 2: to mold yourself into something more than what was just

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Speaker 2: basic and that kind of scene basic. What I mean

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Speaker 2: by that is like I mean when I left Souse

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Speaker 2: in a United like Les Davis and used to cut

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Speaker 2: guys in half in that And I'm not advocating for

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Speaker 2: that anymore, but I'm just saying, like he said this style,

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Speaker 2: and I knew when I went from South to Man,

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Speaker 2: I just wanted to change my game, be a bit

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Speaker 2: more enforce and really take ownership of the game in

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00:17:32,200 --> 00:17:34,080
Speaker 2: the forward packing like yeah, but you just have to

334
00:17:34,240 --> 00:17:36,360
Speaker 2: and that comes with confidence. In just the first couple

335
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Speaker 2: of years at House, you know, I was terrified Mason time.

336
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Speaker 2: I mean, I mean the first game I played with

337
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Speaker 2: the Charity Ship and we were playing some George and

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Speaker 2: I was like, opposite me, it was Craig young Man,

339
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Speaker 2: like he was like a bit of a god, like

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Speaker 2: he was one of my favorite players. I just like

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Speaker 2: he was like this oak tree, right, there's no change.

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Speaker 2: There's no change in his like his shape from his necks,

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Speaker 2: from his head down to his feet, like it's just.

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Speaker 1: Like this, it's just a block.

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Speaker 2: Oh man. He was like a redwood. And we used

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Speaker 2: to have Tuger Craig Common. We had this move, this

347
00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:18,560
Speaker 2: call called Henry. It was you all in right.

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Speaker 1: If your little nippy half back.

349
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Speaker 2: And the second the second, the second scram Tiger walks

350
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Speaker 2: through Henry's on, Henry's on Craig Youngs just was I

351
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Speaker 2: was like, I went the water please, no.

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Speaker 1: No, I'm like at the call of Henry.

353
00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:40,159
Speaker 2: H and I like I made some feeble attempt. I

354
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:42,160
Speaker 2: just wanted him to put like Craig Young to put

355
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Speaker 2: me out of my misery. Like I was just like

356
00:18:43,600 --> 00:18:45,800
Speaker 2: I was an order guy. You know. He nearly put

357
00:18:45,800 --> 00:18:47,600
Speaker 2: his like his fist through the back of my head.

358
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Speaker 2: But I was just but but that was that was

359
00:18:51,520 --> 00:18:54,760
Speaker 2: just being phased out at that time, like it and

360
00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,119
Speaker 2: I'm like, I'm grateful for it. But it did also

361
00:18:57,160 --> 00:18:59,479
Speaker 2: give me a realization of how physical the game had

362
00:18:59,600 --> 00:19:02,679
Speaker 2: to be at that time it was and if you

363
00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:06,560
Speaker 2: and if you didn't adjust your play and then that's

364
00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:08,120
Speaker 2: what I'm what I meant when I kind of when

365
00:19:08,119 --> 00:19:11,840
Speaker 2: I towards eighty eight eighty nine, when I really started

366
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Speaker 2: to become aware, you've got to change the style of

367
00:19:14,000 --> 00:19:15,680
Speaker 2: played to make this work for you.

368
00:19:15,880 --> 00:19:19,280
Speaker 1: Like that, Yeah, as the game is evolving you, you've

369
00:19:19,320 --> 00:19:21,399
Speaker 1: got to evolve too. I want to I want to

370
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Speaker 1: talk about talk about your career, but before I just

371
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Speaker 1: want to get a sense of your your growing up,

372
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Speaker 1: where where'd you grow up.

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Speaker 2: So, like I said, we were ten pound palms. We

374
00:19:32,520 --> 00:19:35,520
Speaker 2: grew up in in the hostel at Dacyville. We were

375
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Speaker 2: there for three or four years when we first came

376
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Speaker 2: out here. Then we moved to Erubro and that's back

377
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Speaker 2: in the Housing Commission.

378
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Speaker 3: We lived.

379
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Speaker 2: Moved from Aruba to I went to Uber Bay School

380
00:19:47,000 --> 00:19:50,320
Speaker 2: from kindergarten right through to high school. Then we moved

381
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Speaker 2: to South Could you always in the housing Commission?

382
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Speaker 1: Yeah?

383
00:19:54,200 --> 00:19:56,080
Speaker 2: And I think we left the Housing Commission my mom

384
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Speaker 2: and dad bought their first home in Botany. I would

385
00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 2: have been about sixteen then. I think that would have

386
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:03,600
Speaker 2: been about eighty one.

387
00:20:03,920 --> 00:20:08,160
Speaker 1: And did was football always your passion or well?

388
00:20:08,320 --> 00:20:10,520
Speaker 2: My dad used to be a boxer, right like, so

389
00:20:11,640 --> 00:20:13,760
Speaker 2: it kind of I kind of learned to box, not

390
00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:15,760
Speaker 2: learned to box. I mean, that's a hard way to

391
00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:19,560
Speaker 2: describe it. But my dad used to train my brother

392
00:20:19,600 --> 00:20:22,480
Speaker 2: and Ice. I've kind of always been and I've always been.

393
00:20:22,520 --> 00:20:26,119
Speaker 2: Really I felt really fortunate my dad did that because

394
00:20:27,160 --> 00:20:30,880
Speaker 2: for my own situation later in life. And yeah, I've

395
00:20:30,880 --> 00:20:32,720
Speaker 2: always kind of been able to look after myself, like

396
00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:35,880
Speaker 2: not look after myself, but you get what I mean.

397
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,560
Speaker 1: But like I do it and I think and I've

398
00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:42,280
Speaker 1: been grateful for on Like a Crime podcast often when

399
00:20:42,640 --> 00:20:45,919
Speaker 1: I say about the benefits of people being taught self defense,

400
00:20:45,960 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: whether it's boxing or whatever stuff, it gives you the

401
00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:51,680
Speaker 1: confidence to stand up for yourself. Yeah, and maybe that's

402
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:52,879
Speaker 1: what it proves yourself.

403
00:20:53,280 --> 00:20:54,000
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what it is.

404
00:20:54,320 --> 00:20:56,080
Speaker 1: I think it's a good, good thing. So I do

405
00:20:56,200 --> 00:21:00,560
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. And even in policing, the fact

406
00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,600
Speaker 1: that I could look after myself at helped, Like, yeah,

407
00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:06,440
Speaker 1: I could back it up if I needed to back

408
00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:07,280
Speaker 1: back it up.

409
00:21:07,320 --> 00:21:10,480
Speaker 2: And I think for me growing up, the hardest thing

410
00:21:10,720 --> 00:21:14,040
Speaker 2: was I didn't learn to read and write in my

411
00:21:14,119 --> 00:21:16,240
Speaker 2: thirties when I went to night I was dyslexic, right,

412
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:17,960
Speaker 2: But but that wasn't that wasn't a thing when I

413
00:21:18,040 --> 00:21:20,600
Speaker 2: was a kid, was diagnosed. It wasn't like it just

414
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,000
Speaker 2: dyslexily wasn't a thing I was. I was slow, right,

415
00:21:24,080 --> 00:21:26,959
Speaker 2: and always always used to be well, this is one

416
00:21:27,000 --> 00:21:30,359
Speaker 2: of those things. I was never in any way uncomfortable

417
00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,560
Speaker 2: about being the same sex attracted and knowing that as

418
00:21:32,600 --> 00:21:35,000
Speaker 2: I was going up, But I was always incredibly shameful

419
00:21:35,040 --> 00:21:37,600
Speaker 2: of of not being able to read and right, I

420
00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:42,399
Speaker 2: was that kid. I got suspended loads of times. But

421
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,560
Speaker 2: I was that kid that the teacher. And this is

422
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:47,240
Speaker 2: when we used to read out of books get up

423
00:21:47,280 --> 00:21:50,280
Speaker 2: and read. I'd make it about something else. I kick

424
00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:54,200
Speaker 2: the table over, storm out, or just throw a tantrum,

425
00:21:54,560 --> 00:21:58,240
Speaker 2: get sit outside. And I kind of like used to

426
00:21:58,320 --> 00:21:59,760
Speaker 2: usual to be really ashamed of not being able to

427
00:21:59,800 --> 00:22:04,520
Speaker 2: read right, like really shade. I repeated school a couple

428
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:06,639
Speaker 2: like classes years, a couple of times, and that was

429
00:22:06,680 --> 00:22:08,840
Speaker 2: always really embarrassing for me as well, that I.

430
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 1: Was years you were hiding it by you.

431
00:22:11,920 --> 00:22:15,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I didn't talk about I was always

432
00:22:15,840 --> 00:22:18,000
Speaker 2: in the special class, but you know that that was

433
00:22:18,040 --> 00:22:23,520
Speaker 2: always like so embarrassing. It was like really, And then

434
00:22:24,400 --> 00:22:26,159
Speaker 2: they say, there's that one teacher in your life. I

435
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,639
Speaker 2: like to mention this because if I really did change

436
00:22:28,640 --> 00:22:32,639
Speaker 2: my life, I went right through school not being under it.

437
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 2: I was always pretty good with numbers, but so maths

438
00:22:34,920 --> 00:22:39,680
Speaker 2: and science comp but I could never read write. Then

439
00:22:39,880 --> 00:22:43,080
Speaker 2: when when I retired from footage and I wanted to

440
00:22:43,080 --> 00:22:45,879
Speaker 2: get back into acting, not get back into acting, I

441
00:22:45,920 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: just wanted to do some maybe do some community stuff

442
00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,399
Speaker 2: or some like community theater. Because the other thing about

443
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:53,480
Speaker 2: being in the ensemble and that growing up, I could

444
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:55,480
Speaker 2: never I never got any leads in that because I

445
00:22:55,480 --> 00:22:57,439
Speaker 2: couldn't read. I couldn't do I could do that like

446
00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: the chorus stuff or anything, but read the light like

447
00:23:03,000 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 2: and that was always really embarrassing for me. Anyway. So

448
00:23:06,680 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 2: when I retired, my car had broken down, this true story.

449
00:23:11,440 --> 00:23:14,160
Speaker 2: My car had broken down just up the road from

450
00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:16,840
Speaker 2: Nider and I was walking by and this is now

451
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:20,320
Speaker 2: I'm probably about thirty four. Yeah, I was walking by

452
00:23:20,480 --> 00:23:26,239
Speaker 2: nighter on an Zach Parade and Kensington and Kingsford, and

453
00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: I thought, oh, I just duck in there Nighters see

454
00:23:28,440 --> 00:23:29,760
Speaker 2: if there's someone in there might be able to help

455
00:23:29,800 --> 00:23:31,960
Speaker 2: me do some like get back into some sort of

456
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,800
Speaker 2: community theater, if they know someone blah blah blah. So

457
00:23:34,840 --> 00:23:38,640
Speaker 2: I went in there and I was you know, went

458
00:23:38,680 --> 00:23:42,040
Speaker 2: to the front desk and asked, and they buzzed Kevin Jackson.

459
00:23:43,760 --> 00:23:46,359
Speaker 2: Kevin was the one of the acting teachers there. He

460
00:23:46,520 --> 00:23:51,080
Speaker 2: changed my life. Was like, now Kevin knew me. Kevin

461
00:23:51,160 --> 00:23:53,200
Speaker 2: was a gay man as well, but Kevin knew of

462
00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,159
Speaker 2: my story even though he wasn't a football person. I

463
00:23:56,160 --> 00:23:59,679
Speaker 2: didn't know Kevin up until that point anyway, and I

464
00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:02,399
Speaker 2: said him about getting back in the community service. He said, oh,

465
00:24:02,440 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 2: come on, we'll do a cold bread and say how

466
00:24:03,880 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: you're going, and we'll see where he had. If you're

467
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 2: only good, you know, we might be able to help you.

468
00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:10,679
Speaker 2: Blah blah blah. So he took me in, you know,

469
00:24:10,720 --> 00:24:13,480
Speaker 2: he took me in this room and he gave me this,

470
00:24:13,480 --> 00:24:16,720
Speaker 2: this piece to read out. And he could tell as

471
00:24:16,720 --> 00:24:19,240
Speaker 2: he gave you men, I just like that the heat

472
00:24:19,840 --> 00:24:21,959
Speaker 2: the hot head thing you get and like I just

473
00:24:22,000 --> 00:24:24,800
Speaker 2: read it like ah, man, I just and he looked.

474
00:24:24,800 --> 00:24:26,560
Speaker 2: He said are you okay? And I just like, ah,

475
00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:29,880
Speaker 2: I just I can't read. I'm sorry. And he said

476
00:24:30,200 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 2: have dyslexia. And I had heard of that, but no not,

477
00:24:34,440 --> 00:24:37,560
Speaker 2: I'd never he said. I said, I can't read and write.

478
00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,639
Speaker 2: He said that's yeah. He said that's okay, he said,

479
00:24:40,840 --> 00:24:43,480
Speaker 2: he said, so you can't read you He says, what

480
00:24:43,520 --> 00:24:46,320
Speaker 2: we'll do is this. This changed my life. He said,

481
00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:48,160
Speaker 2: what we'll do is we'll take the piece I want

482
00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,040
Speaker 2: your learn. You go home and just listen to it.

483
00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:51,840
Speaker 2: Learn it open when you're ready to come back, and

484
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 2: we'll see you get That doesn't sound like much, right,

485
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 2: change my life, make like it was the first time

486
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:01,000
Speaker 2: that he just seemed to not care, like he.

487
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:03,359
Speaker 1: Really so that dropped all your embarrassment.

488
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:06,479
Speaker 2: I mean, I was still really uncomfortable, right, but it

489
00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:09,159
Speaker 2: was just like this, this whole daorting really was that

490
00:25:09,320 --> 00:25:11,639
Speaker 2: easy to move on from this, Like it was one

491
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 2: of those things in my head. I'm just like I

492
00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,280
Speaker 2: can't believe, like it really really frustrated him. Like I

493
00:25:16,359 --> 00:25:18,480
Speaker 2: was just like, I have spent so much time agonizing

494
00:25:18,560 --> 00:25:20,560
Speaker 2: over not being able to writ and this guy just

495
00:25:20,640 --> 00:25:23,040
Speaker 2: like at first I was a bit angry, and I'm

496
00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:25,000
Speaker 2: just like, it's more important than that I can't read,

497
00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:26,960
Speaker 2: you know what I mean. He was just like, it's nothing,

498
00:25:27,320 --> 00:25:32,480
Speaker 2: nothing around it. And then you know, I learned the

499
00:25:32,480 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: police went back in and he's he trained me for

500
00:25:36,119 --> 00:25:38,040
Speaker 2: about six months, and then at the end of the

501
00:25:38,080 --> 00:25:39,800
Speaker 2: six months, he said, what do you do the audition for,

502
00:25:39,880 --> 00:25:42,160
Speaker 2: you know, for the club going for the three year course,

503
00:25:42,200 --> 00:25:44,840
Speaker 2: And I said, I'm a bit old, and he was like, mate,

504
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:47,080
Speaker 2: if you're old, if you're old enough, if you're good enough,

505
00:25:47,080 --> 00:25:50,160
Speaker 2: you're old enough. That works both ways, right, he said,

506
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:52,880
Speaker 2: it works both ways. So I didn't and I didn't,

507
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:55,000
Speaker 2: and for the first six months a night. I didn't

508
00:25:55,000 --> 00:25:57,320
Speaker 2: tell anyone that I couldn't well, we told a couple

509
00:25:57,320 --> 00:26:00,320
Speaker 2: of teachers that I couldn't read and write, and he

510
00:26:00,400 --> 00:26:04,400
Speaker 2: would help me record stuff and that, and then then

511
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:07,159
Speaker 2: we learned phonetics, which is another form of language. I

512
00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: like writing and that that's kind of phonetics is what

513
00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:11,680
Speaker 2: saved me. I mean, I I right now like I'm

514
00:26:11,680 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: no Shakespeare, and I spoke about it before, but I

515
00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:16,960
Speaker 2: can read and write. I can like I can read

516
00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:19,760
Speaker 2: and write. Like I said, I'm no Shakespeare. But just

517
00:26:19,800 --> 00:26:22,280
Speaker 2: that one moment and like changed my life. It's just

518
00:26:22,320 --> 00:26:24,480
Speaker 2: almost like I remember a bit angry and the first

519
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:26,240
Speaker 2: time he says, oh, do you have disc That's not

520
00:26:26,280 --> 00:26:28,920
Speaker 2: why I feel like, I say, what are you talking about?

521
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:31,040
Speaker 2: But this has destroyed my life like that when you

522
00:26:31,080 --> 00:26:34,640
Speaker 2: talk about this is nothing. So it's just one yeah,

523
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:38,800
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's just one of those moments. It just

524
00:26:39,960 --> 00:26:42,040
Speaker 2: and it kind of gave me this insight into other

525
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 2: stuff as well, like.

526
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:48,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, look, I think it's so important. And yeah, we're

527
00:26:48,000 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 1: always talking the ways of reducing crime and different things.

528
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,639
Speaker 1: I've seen it so many times when I was in

529
00:26:53,680 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: the cops with people that struggle and you know, you

530
00:26:57,640 --> 00:26:59,720
Speaker 1: lashed out when you're in class and all that, Yeah,

531
00:27:00,040 --> 00:27:03,760
Speaker 1: and carry on in the society. And I've seen blokes that, yeah,

532
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,760
Speaker 1: they're not bad people, but they're hiding something. Even in

533
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,680
Speaker 1: the interview room. You sign this statement and you push

534
00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:13,560
Speaker 1: the way they'll say something just to and over the

535
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:16,159
Speaker 1: years you work out you could spot it. Someone's just

536
00:27:16,200 --> 00:27:18,840
Speaker 1: hiding the fact that they can't can't read or write.

537
00:27:18,880 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 1: And it's something that we really should stigmatized. Well I

538
00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,520
Speaker 1: suppose we have in a way, but really help people,

539
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:26,200
Speaker 1: help people.

540
00:27:27,000 --> 00:27:32,120
Speaker 2: My partner Dan, he's he now works for the Education department,

541
00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:34,879
Speaker 2: but he's a school teacher. Yeah, and we've been been

542
00:27:34,920 --> 00:27:37,840
Speaker 2: toga in only twenty years. But the other good thing

543
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:43,040
Speaker 2: is he teaches cater year six, so he's been great

544
00:27:43,040 --> 00:27:45,639
Speaker 2: for me as well. Like the whole reading and writing

545
00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: and almost learning to read and write in your forties

546
00:27:49,200 --> 00:27:50,560
Speaker 2: and fifties, it's been wonderful.

547
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:51,480
Speaker 1: It would have been the world.

548
00:27:52,040 --> 00:27:54,600
Speaker 2: It's like this, I don't know how to explain this.

549
00:27:54,720 --> 00:27:56,800
Speaker 2: Gas It's like this whole world got opened up to

550
00:27:56,840 --> 00:27:59,719
Speaker 2: me like that, this whole world that I've been like

551
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:02,880
Speaker 2: moving alongside of, but I've never been able to step

552
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,520
Speaker 2: into it reading books and just like sounds like it

553
00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,439
Speaker 2: doesn't sound like much, right, but like reading books was like,

554
00:28:09,480 --> 00:28:11,400
Speaker 2: oh my god, I've missed out on this whole thing.

555
00:28:12,920 --> 00:28:16,800
Speaker 2: It's like this whole other world of experience. It was incredible. Wow.

556
00:28:17,840 --> 00:28:21,840
Speaker 1: Okay, So your childhood, when did you realize football was

557
00:28:21,840 --> 00:28:23,880
Speaker 1: going to be your career. At what point in time

558
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:26,400
Speaker 1: did you think did you have any aspirations to work

559
00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,000
Speaker 1: in I want to do this, I want to do.

560
00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:30,400
Speaker 2: That, sparky by trade electrician.

561
00:28:30,480 --> 00:28:30,919
Speaker 1: Right, So.

562
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:37,000
Speaker 2: I left in year ten, got a job as a sparky,

563
00:28:37,080 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 2: and I just thought that that would be that would

564
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:41,920
Speaker 2: be it for me. I mean, like I said, my

565
00:28:42,400 --> 00:28:45,760
Speaker 2: education was never really valued in my family. My my

566
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:50,280
Speaker 2: my two sisters were always going to be cleaners or secretaries,

567
00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,840
Speaker 2: and my brother and I were either going to be

568
00:28:53,080 --> 00:28:59,400
Speaker 2: like truckies or traders. That was, there was no real

569
00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:03,080
Speaker 2: value education with my mum and dad because my mom

570
00:29:03,160 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 2: was a cleaner mast of light. There's nothing wrong with that, yeah,

571
00:29:06,120 --> 00:29:13,200
Speaker 2: and my dad was like a project major process worker. Yeah.

572
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:18,479
Speaker 2: So footy was And don't forget you're now talking at

573
00:29:18,480 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 2: a time when this is like you know, the early

574
00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:27,240
Speaker 2: eighties and that like players were on thirty and forty grand.

575
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:28,680
Speaker 2: That was big money, right.

576
00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: A lot of them were still working.

577
00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,640
Speaker 2: We used to train at house. We used to train

578
00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:34,960
Speaker 2: at like four thirty, so everyone could get home from

579
00:29:34,960 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 2: work and then go to training. That was a real thing.

580
00:29:37,800 --> 00:29:40,480
Speaker 2: Like that was like, you know, like that was just

581
00:29:40,520 --> 00:29:43,719
Speaker 2: the way. It was more in your day job than

582
00:29:43,720 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 2: you would playing footage. Yeah. Yeah, it was kind of

583
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:49,920
Speaker 2: interesting that things kind of panned out that way for me.

584
00:29:50,720 --> 00:29:52,640
Speaker 2: And then when I was about I suppose I was

585
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,280
Speaker 2: about eight A, nine A and I was you know,

586
00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 2: I was I was playing for mascot at the time.

587
00:29:57,400 --> 00:30:00,000
Speaker 2: I was pretty good at I had a bit of

588
00:30:00,040 --> 00:30:01,920
Speaker 2: a sliding doors moment too, because I was going to

589
00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,239
Speaker 2: go and like I did what Boxing was a bit

590
00:30:04,240 --> 00:30:05,680
Speaker 2: of a thing for me as well. I was just

591
00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 2: footy kind of happened before boxing, if that makes sense.

592
00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: The opportunity.

593
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:12,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I didn't really want to I'm going to

594
00:30:12,960 --> 00:30:15,000
Speaker 2: be honest. I wanted to step away from from from

595
00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:16,920
Speaker 2: rugby league. I didn't really want to play sports and

596
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:18,760
Speaker 2: that if I was going to make those because I

597
00:30:18,800 --> 00:30:21,120
Speaker 2: was always the only thing I was worried about being

598
00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:23,360
Speaker 2: same sex attractive is I didn't think they I thought

599
00:30:23,360 --> 00:30:26,040
Speaker 2: they were like water and oil, they could never wait.

600
00:30:27,320 --> 00:30:31,680
Speaker 1: The culture of the league at that time definitely homophobic.

601
00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:36,160
Speaker 1: Just it's much image and it's not the type of

602
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:38,920
Speaker 1: thing that you would feel like that would be readily accepted.

603
00:30:39,280 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I absolutely felt that's a good way of explaining.

604
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:45,480
Speaker 2: I absolutely felt that. I remember I was the best

605
00:30:45,480 --> 00:30:47,160
Speaker 2: seven A A A and I said to my dad

606
00:30:47,200 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 2: that I was going to like stop playing footy for

607
00:30:50,200 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 2: that reason. Like, you know, I just I wasn't out

608
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:56,040
Speaker 2: to my parents at this time, right, But I'd already

609
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 2: when I say I wasn't out, but I'd already been

610
00:30:57,920 --> 00:31:01,080
Speaker 2: on the scene. And you know, I I'd already been

611
00:31:01,080 --> 00:31:04,040
Speaker 2: out you know, the Oxford Street like it wasn't and

612
00:31:04,080 --> 00:31:06,600
Speaker 2: I was kind of out privately, if that makes sense.

613
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:11,280
Speaker 2: I was comfortable to myself. I mean, I even I

614
00:31:11,400 --> 00:31:14,280
Speaker 2: used to have a Grand Corolla station wagon. It was

615
00:31:14,320 --> 00:31:17,120
Speaker 2: an old work van. In the back of the van,

616
00:31:17,200 --> 00:31:18,880
Speaker 2: I used to have these aren't going to sound like

617
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:19,720
Speaker 2: a tickhead now.

618
00:31:21,280 --> 00:31:22,080
Speaker 1: We've heard a lot on this.

619
00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:24,840
Speaker 2: I used to have these clothes in the back of

620
00:31:24,880 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 2: my station wagon. It was like old military jackets. And

621
00:31:29,840 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 2: I would go out drive around the corner and get

622
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 2: changed into these fat like and then then go to

623
00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:39,280
Speaker 2: the Exchange and down Oxford Street and patches and like

624
00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:42,760
Speaker 2: in in a flashy, flashy year that whatever that you know,

625
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:45,280
Speaker 2: that that that era was with the big hair and

626
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,360
Speaker 2: that sorte of thing. And then when I come home,

627
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,400
Speaker 2: I get changed again before I went and put put

628
00:31:51,440 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: them in the back of it.

629
00:31:52,080 --> 00:31:54,520
Speaker 1: That to put stress on you, like yeah, but it

630
00:31:54,560 --> 00:31:55,240
Speaker 1: was also fun.

631
00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:56,880
Speaker 2: The first time I went out in Oxford Street, I

632
00:31:56,880 --> 00:32:00,840
Speaker 2: was about sixteen. I found I say this all the time.

633
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:02,800
Speaker 2: I went to a place called float Flows Palace. I

634
00:32:02,880 --> 00:32:08,640
Speaker 2: just got the bus in the three ninety six, and

635
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: there was this whole other world that opened up to me,

636
00:32:12,560 --> 00:32:16,440
Speaker 2: like I felt like I had a crush on the barman.

637
00:32:16,520 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: And then I left that place and I walked down

638
00:32:18,840 --> 00:32:22,000
Speaker 2: the road to the Exchange Hotel, and for anyone of

639
00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:24,840
Speaker 2: our generation, they would know the Exchange and that as

640
00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:26,600
Speaker 2: soon as I walked through those doors, I was like,

641
00:32:26,640 --> 00:32:29,560
Speaker 2: oh my god, I found my people. This is this

642
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,080
Speaker 2: is where I belonged. It was that whole eighties punk

643
00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:35,080
Speaker 2: rock slash, you know.

644
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:39,920
Speaker 1: But then you go from that environment, then you're back

645
00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,040
Speaker 1: in the football culture. It must have been.

646
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:44,640
Speaker 2: It was yeah, it was. It was black and like

647
00:32:44,680 --> 00:32:47,320
Speaker 2: it was very different. Yeah, but I do just and

648
00:32:47,600 --> 00:32:51,040
Speaker 2: I used to live for Friday and Saturday nights. It

649
00:32:51,160 --> 00:32:53,800
Speaker 2: was anyway, So I was, I say, like, and I

650
00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,040
Speaker 2: was at that stage, you know, I just said, I

651
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:57,560
Speaker 2: just said the dad, I don't know, I'm not going

652
00:32:57,600 --> 00:33:00,160
Speaker 2: to play anymore. And my dad was a boy and

653
00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:02,200
Speaker 2: my dad, my mum and dad who really supported me,

654
00:33:02,480 --> 00:33:05,800
Speaker 2: like taking me to My dad always was always the

655
00:33:05,840 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 2: manager or something of the young teams. I was playing

656
00:33:08,080 --> 00:33:11,960
Speaker 2: like a lot of parents are not invested. My dads

657
00:33:12,040 --> 00:33:13,239
Speaker 2: to love it too, and I was, you know, I

658
00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:17,880
Speaker 2: was playing good football as a young boat. And it

659
00:33:17,920 --> 00:33:20,120
Speaker 2: happens like and I I was going, I'm going to

660
00:33:20,160 --> 00:33:21,960
Speaker 2: step away. He said you can't. Boy, you know there's

661
00:33:22,000 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: a big chance. And so I promised my dad, I'll

662
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 2: give it one more year. And I got graded that year.

663
00:33:28,800 --> 00:33:31,400
Speaker 2: You know, like if my dad hadn't a like kind

664
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:33,720
Speaker 2: of twisted mom and like walked away, I would have

665
00:33:33,720 --> 00:33:36,920
Speaker 2: definitely walked away, like because I didn't think I just

666
00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:39,120
Speaker 2: because I knew I was gay, like I just like

667
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:41,360
Speaker 2: and I knew I like I had tried to date

668
00:33:41,440 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 2: girls and tried to do with that like that was

669
00:33:44,320 --> 00:33:45,880
Speaker 2: was not going to work for me, you know, I was,

670
00:33:47,640 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 2: and I knew the time was going to come that

671
00:33:49,000 --> 00:33:51,400
Speaker 2: I was going to have to tell my parents and

672
00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,120
Speaker 2: and I just didn't think that, Yeah, you speak earlier

673
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,320
Speaker 2: about the conflict that I that I saw that there's

674
00:33:59,440 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: two wells kind of clashing or whatever. You know, I

675
00:34:02,400 --> 00:34:04,040
Speaker 2: just didn't I didn't.

676
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:06,560
Speaker 1: Think they could could you could you could juggle it?

677
00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:08,720
Speaker 1: Question when when did you come out to your parents?

678
00:34:08,760 --> 00:34:09,479
Speaker 1: When did they find?

679
00:34:10,320 --> 00:34:14,359
Speaker 2: What about twenty two? And like like I came out

680
00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:16,400
Speaker 2: in like just an awful way as well. I mean

681
00:34:16,400 --> 00:34:18,600
Speaker 2: there are good you know, there are good ways to

682
00:34:18,640 --> 00:34:22,080
Speaker 2: come out, and there were ways that aren't so good.

683
00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:24,920
Speaker 2: And in saying what I'm about to say that there

684
00:34:25,000 --> 00:34:27,960
Speaker 2: was there are one hundred thousands of stories much more

685
00:34:28,040 --> 00:34:30,759
Speaker 2: inspirational than mine, But there are thousands of stories much

686
00:34:30,840 --> 00:34:34,359
Speaker 2: more tragic, mate, and like the consequential the mine as well,

687
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:36,319
Speaker 2: you know, like I just want to make I came

688
00:34:36,320 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 2: and my mum used to work at Connie as like

689
00:34:38,480 --> 00:34:40,960
Speaker 2: as a cleaner. This is how I came out. So

690
00:34:41,000 --> 00:34:42,759
Speaker 2: it was nineteen eighty seven and I was having a

691
00:34:42,800 --> 00:34:46,440
Speaker 2: really good year as its house. Actually I'm giving myself

692
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,359
Speaker 2: a pat on the back. I got proper the year

693
00:34:48,360 --> 00:34:51,239
Speaker 2: that year for the daim Yeah, okay, it was my

694
00:34:51,320 --> 00:34:56,360
Speaker 2: second year in in the in the top rode. Anyway,

695
00:34:57,480 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: my mum was working at Quotas and these these two boys.

696
00:35:00,640 --> 00:35:02,800
Speaker 2: My mom's at lunch and my mum's having a sandwiches

697
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,359
Speaker 2: or whatever, and that just opposite. Like we are now

698
00:35:05,560 --> 00:35:08,680
Speaker 2: two boys reading a newspapers. Now boys just been boys

699
00:35:08,680 --> 00:35:12,160
Speaker 2: with banter and just sledging and that type of thing.

700
00:35:12,280 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 2: And then not realizing that the article they were reading

701
00:35:14,840 --> 00:35:17,080
Speaker 2: was about me and not read realizing that, you know,

702
00:35:17,320 --> 00:35:18,560
Speaker 2: the mother of that person was.

703
00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,759
Speaker 1: My mom's incomplete is.

704
00:35:22,719 --> 00:35:24,960
Speaker 2: In complete earshot. And then you know, I had been

705
00:35:25,040 --> 00:35:26,880
Speaker 2: going out to Oxford Street, been doing that since I

706
00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:30,720
Speaker 2: was sixteen, and I had you know, I had partners

707
00:35:30,840 --> 00:35:33,360
Speaker 2: at that by that stage. And I'll just use a

708
00:35:33,440 --> 00:35:36,120
Speaker 2: language that was used so you can understand, and I

709
00:35:36,520 --> 00:35:38,920
Speaker 2: called this loose language and the consequences and the effects

710
00:35:38,920 --> 00:35:41,680
Speaker 2: that loose language can have and the devastating effects it

711
00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:42,160
Speaker 2: can have.

712
00:35:42,200 --> 00:35:42,439
Speaker 1: Money.

713
00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:46,840
Speaker 2: So these two boys are reading a little bit uncomfortable

714
00:35:46,840 --> 00:35:49,640
Speaker 2: with These two boys are reading that article. Mum said,

715
00:35:49,680 --> 00:35:52,480
Speaker 2: here reading your sandwiches, and one boy says to the

716
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,279
Speaker 2: other boy, that's saying Roberts, he got caught sucking a

717
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:58,160
Speaker 2: guy off at Oxford Street. Right, So just to be clear,

718
00:35:58,360 --> 00:36:02,399
Speaker 2: that wasn't true. You were clear of that. I didn't

719
00:36:02,400 --> 00:36:06,239
Speaker 2: get caught, No, no, but that wasn't true. It's just

720
00:36:06,239 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: two boys bantering. But you can imagine the effects I

721
00:36:08,480 --> 00:36:11,239
Speaker 2: had on my mum, right, she was and my mum

722
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:14,399
Speaker 2: by that stage, people were like I had a hot

723
00:36:15,040 --> 00:36:18,080
Speaker 2: people hecklers and that at the foot would scream stuff

724
00:36:18,120 --> 00:36:21,880
Speaker 2: out and it was it was definitely out there. My

725
00:36:21,960 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: mom had to go home. She was she's not well.

726
00:36:25,600 --> 00:36:27,640
Speaker 2: I got a phone call off my dad later that night, and,

727
00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:29,960
Speaker 2: like I said, this is a pretty ordinary story for

728
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:33,040
Speaker 2: gay people. They've heard these stories before, right, Like we've

729
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:36,120
Speaker 2: all heard very simple stories. Dad, you said, oh boy,

730
00:36:36,120 --> 00:36:39,000
Speaker 2: you better come home and your mum heard something that work.

731
00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:40,680
Speaker 2: We need to talk about it. I got home. You

732
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:43,200
Speaker 2: love this bit and I sit down. I walked into

733
00:36:43,239 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 2: the house. It was like someone that died. My mom's

734
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:48,360
Speaker 2: bawling her eyes and my dad sits in front of

735
00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,680
Speaker 2: me and I sit down and I was like that, dad,

736
00:36:50,680 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 2: what's happened? And he mate, your mum's heard something at work.

737
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,640
Speaker 2: We just want to hear you say that you're not gay,

738
00:36:58,000 --> 00:37:02,360
Speaker 2: and that'll be good enough for us. So you know,

739
00:37:02,440 --> 00:37:04,120
Speaker 2: like no, there was the way he worded it. So

740
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:07,640
Speaker 2: we spoke about it after like and I'm like, oh no,

741
00:37:07,760 --> 00:37:10,279
Speaker 2: that I'm gay, and my mom went crazy right like

742
00:37:10,320 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 2: she just but uh, this is a very familiar story

743
00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:16,000
Speaker 2: for for gaying. They would have heard these stories before.

744
00:37:16,320 --> 00:37:18,480
Speaker 2: But my dad is real. Actually was the best. He

745
00:37:18,520 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 2: stood there and like he was just staring at me,

746
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,080
Speaker 2: and I'm just like looking at him. He's like, but

747
00:37:23,160 --> 00:37:28,319
Speaker 2: you play front row? He was like, you play front row?

748
00:37:29,320 --> 00:37:31,160
Speaker 2: Like he was stuck on that. Like he said about

749
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 2: three or four times, like your front rower. Like he

750
00:37:35,560 --> 00:37:37,160
Speaker 2: kept saying this thing about the front row. And I'm

751
00:37:37,200 --> 00:37:45,000
Speaker 2: just like so like he said, like it like it

752
00:37:45,080 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: didn't compute, you know anyway. I didn't didn't. I didn't

753
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:50,120
Speaker 2: didn't go down. Well, I looked like I left the

754
00:37:50,160 --> 00:37:53,560
Speaker 2: heir we did. Uh, you know that they they weren't happy,

755
00:37:53,560 --> 00:37:56,120
Speaker 2: but they said stuff that like you know like okay,

756
00:37:56,200 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 2: well and my uncle, my dad's uncle Jack was gay. Uh,

757
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:02,640
Speaker 2: but it was one of those things the whole family

758
00:38:02,680 --> 00:38:05,720
Speaker 2: denied and Uncle Jack and uncle John. He's his special friend.

759
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:09,799
Speaker 2: Like we're always invited, but no one your uncle dad

760
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:11,280
Speaker 2: Jack was gay. They like Luis.

761
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:13,879
Speaker 1: I think families have got everyone's got.

762
00:38:14,160 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 2: Jack, right, everyone's got every family's got an uncle Jack.

763
00:38:16,680 --> 00:38:18,520
Speaker 2: I just said, Dad, your uncle Jack nor he was?

764
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: I said, Dad, come on, man like anyway. But that

765
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 2: was years later. But yeah, like my dad says something

766
00:38:25,320 --> 00:38:27,560
Speaker 2: like you know and but at that stage I was

767
00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 2: I think my partner's name was Shane. Uh. And he said, oh,

768
00:38:31,840 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 2: well you know you told them that Shane and anyway,

769
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:37,480
Speaker 2: he just so you know you can't come around. I said, well,

770
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:39,800
Speaker 2: if Shane can't come around, Dad, I'm not coming around

771
00:38:39,840 --> 00:38:42,640
Speaker 2: until you're get in your head. That was That was

772
00:38:42,719 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 2: why Dad, until you that was the line in the

773
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,560
Speaker 2: sand his dad, do you get in your head? This

774
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:50,279
Speaker 2: is who this is the way it's going to be.

775
00:38:51,320 --> 00:38:53,680
Speaker 2: I'm not coming We didn't. We didn't speak for no reusement.

776
00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:58,080
Speaker 2: It's just but it's funny my dad's reaction. You just

777
00:38:58,120 --> 00:39:01,160
Speaker 2: stuck on that on that reway. You're front right, but

778
00:39:01,200 --> 00:39:03,439
Speaker 2: you play front right. Yeah.

779
00:39:03,480 --> 00:39:06,480
Speaker 1: Well, I think and as you said, a lot of

780
00:39:06,480 --> 00:39:09,359
Speaker 1: families have got stories. I'll check with my sister from

781
00:39:09,400 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: allowed to tell this story. We might have to have

782
00:39:11,440 --> 00:39:15,080
Speaker 1: to edit it. But she's gay and she was going

783
00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:17,360
Speaker 1: to come out and my parents were having Christmas up

784
00:39:17,600 --> 00:39:19,920
Speaker 1: up the coast and I wasn't going. I had something

785
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: else on that. And my sister said, I'm coming out

786
00:39:23,200 --> 00:39:24,759
Speaker 1: to my mum and dad. I said, I'm up there.

787
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:25,880
Speaker 1: This is going to be interesting.

788
00:39:27,600 --> 00:39:29,879
Speaker 2: It's nice. She says, she was out to you. Yeah,

789
00:39:30,280 --> 00:39:33,319
Speaker 2: that's that's that already tells me, mate, that's that's a

790
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:34,920
Speaker 2: that's a nice relationship between you.

791
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:37,960
Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, it was a good relationship. So we're at

792
00:39:37,960 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 1: the Christmas everyone's sitting around for the Christmas dinner or

793
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: whatever it was, and Michelle comes out and my parents

794
00:39:45,400 --> 00:39:50,160
Speaker 1: are saying, I think her friend is they're just good friends.

795
00:39:50,160 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 1: And I'm going, are you sure? Mom? And Dad? I

796
00:39:51,719 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 1: know it's coming, so I'm sort of frowing fuel on

797
00:39:54,040 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 1: the and then she's come out and Dad's there, okay, well,

798
00:40:01,280 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: and he's sort of fairly easy with it. Mum was

799
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:07,040
Speaker 1: fine with it, but she all of a sudden decides

800
00:40:07,040 --> 00:40:09,800
Speaker 1: she had to pick up all the plates off the

801
00:40:09,880 --> 00:40:13,000
Speaker 1: off the table, and she's busy doing the doing the

802
00:40:13,080 --> 00:40:15,279
Speaker 1: washing up, but the next day was the best bit.

803
00:40:15,600 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: Mum was so rattled by it. She's telling people, Ah,

804
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:22,120
Speaker 1: my daughter came out as Lebanese. She's so rattles you

805
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:25,759
Speaker 1: couldn't even say lesbian. She's saying Lebanese. So now we've

806
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:28,640
Speaker 1: declared that mum's got a Lebanese daughter because she was

807
00:40:28,640 --> 00:40:31,520
Speaker 1: telling people just how rattle sweet. But do you think

808
00:40:31,840 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: I think part of it is Yeah, I could be wrong,

809
00:40:34,960 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: and everyone everyone's different, but I always think it's part

810
00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:41,080
Speaker 1: as a parent, you want your kid's life to be easy.

811
00:40:41,320 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: And I'm sure part of the reaction from your dad

812
00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,799
Speaker 1: would be knowing the world and your mum knowing the

813
00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:48,880
Speaker 1: world that your life's going to be that little bit harder.

814
00:40:49,760 --> 00:40:53,680
Speaker 2: Absolutely, absolutely, you know that they do think it was

815
00:40:53,719 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 2: going to be difficult though, and they were you know.

816
00:40:55,800 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 2: The other thing is they were worried about what people

817
00:40:58,680 --> 00:41:00,880
Speaker 2: would think that make, you know, and there was that

818
00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: still a thing that gay men a week becau there

819
00:41:03,360 --> 00:41:06,719
Speaker 2: was all that. I mean, I I'm part of an

820
00:41:06,840 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 2: education program called Think About It and we we it's

821
00:41:10,320 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 2: theater sports stuff. One of the a couple of the

822
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:17,799
Speaker 2: scenes that I'm involved in. Uh, we go out to

823
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:21,000
Speaker 2: corporations and if the corporations, and we started off during

824
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 2: the NRL. That's how it started on all the teams,

825
00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:29,719
Speaker 2: and we touch on subjects. We do scenes where around misogyny,

826
00:41:30,040 --> 00:41:35,919
Speaker 2: violence against women, homophobia, drugs in sport and with the corporations,

827
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:41,040
Speaker 2: you know again all those things about discrimination, and we

828
00:41:41,080 --> 00:41:42,960
Speaker 2: get a couple of people up involved from the audience

829
00:41:43,040 --> 00:41:44,560
Speaker 2: and then and then we talk about it and how

830
00:41:44,640 --> 00:41:48,920
Speaker 2: best it could have navigated. Uh, And I tell I

831
00:41:49,040 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 2: kind of tell that story about my coming out and

832
00:41:52,800 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 2: the way that we have a couple of saying around

833
00:41:55,840 --> 00:42:00,040
Speaker 2: homophobia and the best way approaches. And I told my

834
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,160
Speaker 2: mom that, well, I've been doing that think about stuff

835
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,560
Speaker 2: now for well over ten years. I told my mom

836
00:42:05,640 --> 00:42:08,480
Speaker 2: just recently, only a couple of months ago, that I

837
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:12,480
Speaker 2: do that scene and I talk about I mentioned occasionally

838
00:42:12,480 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 2: mentioned about the situation with her at lunch and that

839
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,840
Speaker 2: and how it all came to her head and my

840
00:42:17,920 --> 00:42:20,040
Speaker 2: mom found out. And I kind of make it a

841
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 2: bit jovial and like when I tell the corporations and

842
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:25,719
Speaker 2: the teams, and I make it a bit funny because

843
00:42:25,719 --> 00:42:27,800
Speaker 2: I find it easier if you can take fund at yourself.

844
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:30,920
Speaker 2: It lets people in. I tell my mom, That's how

845
00:42:30,960 --> 00:42:33,399
Speaker 2: I do it. My mom. Mum's eighty five. She broke

846
00:42:33,440 --> 00:42:36,160
Speaker 2: down and started crying like she's because she remembers the

847
00:42:36,200 --> 00:42:40,360
Speaker 2: way she acted and how and how catastrophic it was

848
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,560
Speaker 2: for her. And I felt terrible like that I hadn't

849
00:42:43,600 --> 00:42:46,839
Speaker 2: spoken to her about about and she's still dealing with that.

850
00:42:46,880 --> 00:42:50,080
Speaker 2: And that's what I was saying about that the power

851
00:42:50,120 --> 00:42:53,440
Speaker 2: that you know that words have and symbols have. It

852
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,799
Speaker 2: was just one of those like real grounding moments from them,

853
00:42:55,920 --> 00:42:58,000
Speaker 2: like your mom, you're still dealing like my mom is

854
00:42:58,040 --> 00:43:00,799
Speaker 2: one hundred. My mom's grace ally of all the time

855
00:43:00,840 --> 00:43:03,480
Speaker 2: for gay people now, right. But she says, yeah, she

856
00:43:04,200 --> 00:43:08,839
Speaker 2: still feels how her initial react and what she thought

857
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:12,960
Speaker 2: about me, and that how bad it makes her.

858
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:16,040
Speaker 1: How the impact on you. I can understand.

859
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:20,600
Speaker 2: Words, you know, like LS language has a damaging though.

860
00:43:20,680 --> 00:43:25,400
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, okay. Your football career, so you started playing

861
00:43:25,800 --> 00:43:30,640
Speaker 1: playing with South's you spent four years there. Your football

862
00:43:30,680 --> 00:43:34,919
Speaker 1: career is quite incredible. You've played for I've just got

863
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:39,680
Speaker 1: some of the stats here. You've played for Australia nine times,

864
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 1: nine times.

865
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,040
Speaker 2: As a dozen times. I suppose I don't even know

866
00:43:43,120 --> 00:43:43,680
Speaker 2: the number is.

867
00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:48,000
Speaker 1: Two hundred and thirteen first grade games South Sydney and

868
00:43:48,560 --> 00:43:53,600
Speaker 1: Manly and Wigan and North Queensland. You played state of Origin.

869
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:56,279
Speaker 1: I've got a couple of things here. By the age

870
00:43:56,280 --> 00:43:59,120
Speaker 1: of twenty one, Jack Gibson, who's sort of renowned as

871
00:43:59,239 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: the Guru of rugby league, described you as the best

872
00:44:02,000 --> 00:44:05,200
Speaker 1: front brower in the game, and at one point in

873
00:44:05,200 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 1: time you're the highest for profile player in the game

874
00:44:08,239 --> 00:44:09,919
Speaker 1: and the highest paid player in the game.

875
00:44:10,000 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: That's a long time ago, and that's when that's you're

876
00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:15,640
Speaker 2: talking about now. When I went to man Like, I

877
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:18,399
Speaker 2: got twenty grand a year, yeah, and that was like

878
00:44:18,440 --> 00:44:21,640
Speaker 2: that was that was when fifty grand was huge money.

879
00:44:21,600 --> 00:44:21,719
Speaker 1: Yea.

880
00:44:22,520 --> 00:44:24,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was fighttering, Yeah, but.

881
00:44:25,920 --> 00:44:29,120
Speaker 1: Johnny Johnny gave me an insight, took.

882
00:44:28,960 --> 00:44:30,960
Speaker 2: Me over the man. He really took me under his

883
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:33,799
Speaker 2: wing mate. He was. He was such a champion mate.

884
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:36,200
Speaker 1: And George Piggins didn't talk to him for a week. Yeah,

885
00:44:36,600 --> 00:44:39,120
Speaker 1: but in the end he'd be Gradually he.

886
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:41,719
Speaker 2: Was a champion man. You know, I played I went

887
00:44:41,760 --> 00:44:43,480
Speaker 2: to Wigand too. That was at the end of eighty six.

888
00:44:43,920 --> 00:44:46,960
Speaker 2: That was great, that was wonderful. That's why I teamed

889
00:44:47,000 --> 00:44:49,880
Speaker 2: up with I met Graham Lowe. I'm still best friends

890
00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:50,600
Speaker 2: with Lowie.

891
00:44:50,360 --> 00:44:51,840
Speaker 1: Now from New Zealand.

892
00:44:54,680 --> 00:44:58,560
Speaker 2: The whole Weigand experience was quite quite extraordinary. Ters like

893
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,319
Speaker 2: that was an eighty six we played against the Kangaroos. Yeah,

894
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:04,400
Speaker 2: that was probably one of my best games I think

895
00:45:04,440 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 2: I'd ever played against the Kangaroos. Again, it was one

896
00:45:07,719 --> 00:45:10,279
Speaker 2: of those moments for me where I just started to

897
00:45:10,680 --> 00:45:15,399
Speaker 2: find myself, find my ability and have confidence in myself. Yeah. Yeah,

898
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 2: I've been I've been very lucky. I've been very fortunate.

899
00:45:17,960 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 1: What are you Your teammates, your teammates at South Ye

900
00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:25,040
Speaker 1: Souse You hadn't come out publicly at that point in time,

901
00:45:25,440 --> 00:45:29,239
Speaker 1: but I think you described as the world's best.

902
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:32,640
Speaker 2: Or worst worst kept secret secret. Yeah, yeah, I mean

903
00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:37,279
Speaker 2: Souse is. I don't know how to explain it. I

904
00:45:37,280 --> 00:45:39,920
Speaker 2: mean I remember George Pickers took me aside at training

905
00:45:39,960 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 2: one day, this has been about eighty seven and just

906
00:45:43,360 --> 00:45:45,040
Speaker 2: mentioned it to me. He said, oh, there's a lot

907
00:45:45,040 --> 00:45:48,319
Speaker 2: of stories about you. He was he was, and he

908
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,799
Speaker 2: was doing it solely to protect me, right, like you know,

909
00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,239
Speaker 2: he was from that generation. He's like, you know, it's

910
00:45:55,239 --> 00:45:57,280
Speaker 2: not a good look for you. Whatever. You know, you've

911
00:45:57,280 --> 00:45:59,840
Speaker 2: been seeing and he didn't. He wasn't asking me if

912
00:45:59,880 --> 00:46:01,839
Speaker 2: I okay. He just knew I'd been going out doors

913
00:46:01,800 --> 00:46:03,640
Speaker 2: for straight and I just said, George, I'm playing good

914
00:46:03,640 --> 00:46:05,560
Speaker 2: foot mate, like this is about it would have been

915
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:08,800
Speaker 2: about eighty seven. I said, I'm playing pretty good footy.

916
00:46:08,840 --> 00:46:12,719
Speaker 2: I know. You said yeah, just what I'm here, you know,

917
00:46:12,880 --> 00:46:14,799
Speaker 2: and I and he was like, yeah, you're right mate,

918
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 2: Like he was really like that, like it's always like

919
00:46:17,080 --> 00:46:19,640
Speaker 2: you had that you know what, you're right you're playing

920
00:46:20,960 --> 00:46:23,839
Speaker 2: And what I mean is like he's like, that's why

921
00:46:23,880 --> 00:46:25,560
Speaker 2: you're playing good footy. Keep you on that, like it

922
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:27,040
Speaker 2: was one of those. It was one of those moments

923
00:46:27,120 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: he's just like like I was really comfortable with like

924
00:46:30,520 --> 00:46:32,319
Speaker 2: that's what I mean. I was just like I think

925
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:34,520
Speaker 2: it kind of He's like, oh no, he's right, he's

926
00:46:34,560 --> 00:46:37,640
Speaker 2: playing good footy. He's obviously like whatever you're doing, he

927
00:46:37,719 --> 00:46:39,520
Speaker 2: must be doing it right. You get what I'm saying.

928
00:46:39,680 --> 00:46:42,480
Speaker 2: It was like he wasn't like at first where he

929
00:46:42,600 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: was like you he probably shouldn't be done. I just jewish,

930
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,920
Speaker 2: but I'm playing good foot mat like like I'm happy,

931
00:46:47,000 --> 00:46:50,319
Speaker 2: and he was like you know what. It was one

932
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,919
Speaker 2: of those and one of those learning moments for me too.

933
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:57,520
Speaker 2: You know. I was just like because because yeah, I was,

934
00:46:57,760 --> 00:47:01,279
Speaker 2: I was always uncomfortable with those two worlds clash, like yeah,

935
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:05,839
Speaker 2: it wasn't. And then in eighty nine and ninety when

936
00:47:05,880 --> 00:47:07,640
Speaker 2: I left the house together manly, I mean I was

937
00:47:07,719 --> 00:47:10,040
Speaker 2: quite out on the scene, like like I used to

938
00:47:10,080 --> 00:47:14,839
Speaker 2: take partners to funk like it was it's hard to explain.

939
00:47:16,000 --> 00:47:16,239
Speaker 1: It was.

940
00:47:16,280 --> 00:47:19,120
Speaker 2: It was like and journals I spoke in the journeys

941
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 2: always wanted to ask me. But but and they've always

942
00:47:21,440 --> 00:47:23,279
Speaker 2: said that they wanted to respect that it was my

943
00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 2: privacy as well, which is kind of nice, right, Yeah,

944
00:47:27,120 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 2: But it.

945
00:47:28,000 --> 00:47:30,680
Speaker 1: Would have been tough in that environment with that just

946
00:47:30,719 --> 00:47:33,400
Speaker 1: hovering around, because you know, we talk about you had

947
00:47:33,400 --> 00:47:35,960
Speaker 1: a lot of yappy players back then, but like I

948
00:47:35,960 --> 00:47:39,319
Speaker 1: could imagine on the on the football field or not

949
00:47:39,440 --> 00:47:41,200
Speaker 1: the players of people in the grads, yea.

950
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:44,640
Speaker 2: And that's the other thing, but that's that was the

951
00:47:44,680 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: one thing you did you to cut me, is like

952
00:47:47,400 --> 00:47:50,280
Speaker 2: you can't you know, I couldn't protect people I cared

953
00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,400
Speaker 2: for from that, like my mom and dad and family

954
00:47:53,440 --> 00:47:55,080
Speaker 2: and friends, and when they used to have to listen

955
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,880
Speaker 2: to that stuff, and you know, like, I love them,

956
00:47:57,880 --> 00:48:01,120
Speaker 2: but you can't protect them from that. Just like in

957
00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:02,799
Speaker 2: eight seven when I told you know, when I came

958
00:48:02,840 --> 00:48:04,919
Speaker 2: out my dad we spoke about it. So I can't

959
00:48:04,920 --> 00:48:07,200
Speaker 2: protect you against that, Like, because how's it going to

960
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: how's it going to affect us? I'm like, I don't know, mam,

961
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 2: but I can't protect you against that.

962
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:14,560
Speaker 1: And that that must have hurt you because you can

963
00:48:14,640 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 1: look after yourself.

964
00:48:15,560 --> 00:48:18,799
Speaker 2: But that's everyone who's had anyone who's different, has any

965
00:48:18,840 --> 00:48:21,960
Speaker 2: sort of like that. That is definitely that is anyone

966
00:48:22,000 --> 00:48:27,680
Speaker 2: who's dealing with any sort of identity. I mean they're

967
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,200
Speaker 2: dealing with themselves, they're also dealing with it on behalf

968
00:48:31,239 --> 00:48:32,399
Speaker 2: of people they care about.

969
00:48:32,440 --> 00:48:34,680
Speaker 1: You Get what I'm saying is, yeah, so they're being

970
00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:39,800
Speaker 1: dragged into into your your world as well. So with

971
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,840
Speaker 1: with Souse when you went to when you went to Manly,

972
00:48:42,920 --> 00:48:44,560
Speaker 1: is that when you you came out? Well, what I

973
00:48:44,600 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 1: was going to do and why did you? Well?

974
00:48:47,760 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 2: I was one of the reasons. It's also just the

975
00:48:50,200 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 2: money I left house for. I left because I was

976
00:48:54,400 --> 00:48:56,160
Speaker 2: going to When I was going to Manly, I knew

977
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: Graham Lowe was going to be there as well. Low

978
00:48:58,040 --> 00:49:00,319
Speaker 2: He didn't know I was going, but I a really

979
00:49:00,320 --> 00:49:04,920
Speaker 2: good friendship with him. I was going to come out

980
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,560
Speaker 2: in nineteen ninety, like when I left him, come out publicly.

981
00:49:09,120 --> 00:49:11,480
Speaker 2: But I'd always had this thing as a young person

982
00:49:11,680 --> 00:49:13,680
Speaker 2: and with my mom and dad that I shouldn't have

983
00:49:13,719 --> 00:49:15,560
Speaker 2: to come out, Like like I said to my mom

984
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:17,640
Speaker 2: and dad, whoever I bring home should be good enough

985
00:49:17,640 --> 00:49:19,440
Speaker 2: for you. Like if I say, mom and Dad, this

986
00:49:19,480 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 2: is my partner, that should be enough, Like I've always

987
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:23,799
Speaker 2: been like I was always like that, but I've seen

988
00:49:24,040 --> 00:49:27,640
Speaker 2: I since that visibility is really important as well, Like

989
00:49:28,480 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: you have to accept that, like I used to be

990
00:49:31,080 --> 00:49:33,080
Speaker 2: like that, Like it doesn't matter who I bring home. Yeah,

991
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 2: if this is my partner, this is my partner regardless,

992
00:49:35,560 --> 00:49:37,440
Speaker 2: like going to the footy stuff, I shouldn't have to

993
00:49:37,480 --> 00:49:40,640
Speaker 2: explain explain, like I said to George. But I'm happy mate,

994
00:49:40,640 --> 00:49:45,560
Speaker 2: like and I do regret that. So but I kind

995
00:49:45,600 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: of made my mind up in eighty nine and in

996
00:49:47,400 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: eighty nine early ninety that I was going to come

997
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,239
Speaker 2: out publicly and just but then over in England and

998
00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:57,200
Speaker 2: justin fashion you Premier League. Yeah, he was the first

999
00:49:57,239 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 2: man who he came out in ninety ninety as a

1000
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:05,720
Speaker 2: gay man, the first man in professional team sport internationally,

1001
00:50:06,400 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 2: and he was brutalized by the English press Fleet Street.

1002
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:14,160
Speaker 2: That was terrible, mate, and the support that this supporter's

1003
00:50:14,160 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 2: base were awful to him. And this is back in

1004
00:50:16,440 --> 00:50:20,240
Speaker 2: the time before as I put to my mobile phone,

1005
00:50:21,080 --> 00:50:23,719
Speaker 2: before phones, like if you follow the story, you had

1006
00:50:23,719 --> 00:50:25,560
Speaker 2: to read it in the newspaper, watch it on TV,

1007
00:50:25,719 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 2: you listen to it on the radio. He was treated

1008
00:50:28,800 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 2: terribly by the supporters of the game, and in fairness

1009
00:50:33,719 --> 00:50:36,759
Speaker 2: looking back now, and he didn't handle it very well.

1010
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,120
Speaker 2: I thank himself and a lot of the stories that

1011
00:50:40,160 --> 00:50:45,000
Speaker 2: were released, I thought he could have made the situation

1012
00:50:45,160 --> 00:50:50,000
Speaker 2: easier for himself. He came out in nineteen ninety, retired

1013
00:50:50,000 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 2: in ninety four. That's a year I came out and

1014
00:50:52,719 --> 00:50:55,480
Speaker 2: died of suicide ninety eight. That is such a familiar

1015
00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,680
Speaker 2: gay story. Regardless of it, that is such a familiar

1016
00:50:58,680 --> 00:51:03,239
Speaker 2: gay story, and anyone and people listening who are particularly

1017
00:51:03,239 --> 00:51:05,360
Speaker 2: of my era, would I would understand that it is

1018
00:51:05,920 --> 00:51:09,080
Speaker 2: such that that's not shocking. It is shocking, but it's

1019
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:12,320
Speaker 2: not shocking. I've heard that story multiple times from different people,

1020
00:51:12,480 --> 00:51:16,839
Speaker 2: you know, So yeah, that's yeah, and then when when

1021
00:51:16,880 --> 00:51:18,360
Speaker 2: I saw the way that he was being treated, I

1022
00:51:18,360 --> 00:51:21,080
Speaker 2: was like, I don't think that my parents would. It

1023
00:51:21,120 --> 00:51:22,600
Speaker 2: wasn't about me. I was just like I was worried

1024
00:51:22,600 --> 00:51:24,719
Speaker 2: about my parents and my family, like having to deal

1025
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:25,719
Speaker 2: with all that stuff, you know.

1026
00:51:25,800 --> 00:51:27,880
Speaker 1: And would I would imagine was there a part of

1027
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,320
Speaker 1: you that's going, well, whose business is it? Anyway?

1028
00:51:30,440 --> 00:51:31,920
Speaker 2: That's what I mean, That's how I was.

1029
00:51:32,000 --> 00:51:33,879
Speaker 1: That's how I call a press conference and go.

1030
00:51:34,000 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 2: That's what That's what I mean, Like you just have

1031
00:51:36,080 --> 00:51:38,759
Speaker 2: to accept, like why am I? But but I did

1032
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 2: realize like visibility, and that's that is my one regret

1033
00:51:42,400 --> 00:51:44,240
Speaker 2: that I was that that was ever in the closet,

1034
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 2: if that makes sense. I wish I'd been more much

1035
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,479
Speaker 2: more public right from the star, right from the start,

1036
00:51:49,640 --> 00:51:51,160
Speaker 2: but I kind of came to lot. But I was

1037
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 2: the thing was I was always worried about my parents

1038
00:51:53,960 --> 00:51:56,960
Speaker 2: like that because they were so not handling me being gay.

1039
00:51:57,040 --> 00:52:01,719
Speaker 2: You know, it's just so embarrassing and uncomfortable for them.

1040
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:05,960
Speaker 1: But it's understanding not from the parents, but from your

1041
00:52:06,000 --> 00:52:08,000
Speaker 1: point of view that you want to try and protect them.

1042
00:52:08,040 --> 00:52:11,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean yeah, but yeah.

1043
00:52:11,080 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: I can understand that it's almost like, well, whose business is it?

1044
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:16,520
Speaker 1: The Yeah, that was my that.

1045
00:52:16,520 --> 00:52:19,560
Speaker 2: Was my the way I took it. But yeah, I mean,

1046
00:52:19,719 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: but then in ninety four, I was just like I

1047
00:52:22,400 --> 00:52:24,719
Speaker 2: just had enough. I just we were going away in

1048
00:52:24,719 --> 00:52:28,080
Speaker 2: the Kangaroo tour and I just thought, I'm going to

1049
00:52:28,120 --> 00:52:30,480
Speaker 2: go over there as a gate like as a gay person.

1050
00:52:30,480 --> 00:52:32,200
Speaker 2: I'm not going to like like, I'm just going to

1051
00:52:32,280 --> 00:52:35,000
Speaker 2: speak openly about it. A shame my partner like he

1052
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:37,840
Speaker 2: like a lot of the players wives and partners go

1053
00:52:37,960 --> 00:52:40,560
Speaker 2: over and they stay in hotels somewhere else with Boomberys

1054
00:52:40,560 --> 00:52:42,600
Speaker 2: Shane came over and was staying in the burnbut the

1055
00:52:42,680 --> 00:52:45,600
Speaker 2: oven was coming to games and that Terry Terry Hill

1056
00:52:45,680 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: was my roomy and Terry and I was gay, and

1057
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,640
Speaker 2: like he did know I was gay. There was by

1058
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:51,680
Speaker 2: this stage a whole load of people knew I was gay.

1059
00:52:51,719 --> 00:52:53,920
Speaker 2: I was quite open about it, but just I hadn't

1060
00:52:53,920 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 2: come out officially to the public that if that makes sense.

1061
00:52:58,480 --> 00:53:00,760
Speaker 2: I was always pushing back against I was like, because

1062
00:53:00,760 --> 00:53:02,920
Speaker 2: I was leading this gay life, right, like everyone knew

1063
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,319
Speaker 2: this is like shame was my then partner. Everyone knew

1064
00:53:06,360 --> 00:53:07,120
Speaker 2: shame was my page.

1065
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:09,799
Speaker 1: Yeah, not hiding it, but you're not making a public.

1066
00:53:09,680 --> 00:53:12,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, I just but but I did realize then it's like,

1067
00:53:13,400 --> 00:53:14,880
Speaker 2: you know, it was crazy.

1068
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: On that Kangaroo tour and from your from your book,

1069
00:53:19,000 --> 00:53:22,240
Speaker 1: I picked up that one of the managers or trainers

1070
00:53:22,320 --> 00:53:26,160
Speaker 1: or whatever made issue with the fact that Shane was

1071
00:53:26,200 --> 00:53:29,040
Speaker 1: having having.

1072
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's the best story of all time, and it's

1073
00:53:31,440 --> 00:53:34,799
Speaker 2: the like, this was the most well, I think it

1074
00:53:34,920 --> 00:53:38,280
Speaker 2: is the most significant moment in my Ragbila League career

1075
00:53:38,320 --> 00:53:41,880
Speaker 2: as a human being. Yeah, like the change of direction

1076
00:53:42,760 --> 00:53:45,840
Speaker 2: we played I was having was we played the first

1077
00:53:45,880 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 2: Test at Wembley in front of one hundred thousand dollars

1078
00:53:48,800 --> 00:53:51,560
Speaker 2: one hundred thousand people. We got we got beat by

1079
00:53:51,640 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 2: twelve men by the great Britain side, but they played

1080
00:53:54,680 --> 00:53:56,799
Speaker 2: out of their skins. But up to that point, my

1081
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:59,239
Speaker 2: form as front row I had been I was like

1082
00:53:59,680 --> 00:54:02,120
Speaker 2: the form front right, Like my FHM was great. Like

1083
00:54:02,160 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 2: I mean I can say that quite modestly, like shaking

1084
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:08,760
Speaker 2: my head, but my form was good. I didn't expect

1085
00:54:08,760 --> 00:54:10,360
Speaker 2: to get but I even had a good game in

1086
00:54:10,400 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 2: that in that test match, right, And I said, like,

1087
00:54:13,440 --> 00:54:16,160
Speaker 2: when you're away on two players, wives and partners aren't

1088
00:54:16,160 --> 00:54:18,000
Speaker 2: allowed to stay with you. In the hotel, they can

1089
00:54:18,040 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 2: come and visit and I have lunch and this, that

1090
00:54:19,800 --> 00:54:21,920
Speaker 2: and the other. That was always common practice, right, and

1091
00:54:21,960 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 2: there was plenty of players wives and girlfriends over and Shane.

1092
00:54:27,680 --> 00:54:29,920
Speaker 2: Shane was good friends with Terry Hill as well because

1093
00:54:30,000 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 2: it was because Bozo was coaching Manly at that time.

1094
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:35,640
Speaker 2: My teram Terry. That's who Terry was playing for at

1095
00:54:35,680 --> 00:54:39,760
Speaker 2: the time. Shane and Terry were good friends as well. Anyway,

1096
00:54:39,760 --> 00:54:42,560
Speaker 2: after the first game, I love telling this story because

1097
00:54:42,560 --> 00:54:47,400
Speaker 2: it's it's just that the respect that that that I

1098
00:54:47,480 --> 00:54:51,200
Speaker 2: have for both this anyway, so you know, we played

1099
00:54:51,200 --> 00:54:54,360
Speaker 2: the first test match, got beat. I wasn't expecting to

1100
00:54:54,360 --> 00:54:56,720
Speaker 2: get to get dropped. And when you're a sports person,

1101
00:54:56,760 --> 00:55:00,920
Speaker 2: everything's about playing test footy and like playing it the elite, right,

1102
00:55:00,920 --> 00:55:03,319
Speaker 2: It's all that's what you're focused on. It's like, you know,

1103
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 2: like so and he gets in the way that like

1104
00:55:06,000 --> 00:55:10,959
Speaker 2: it's like it's it's catastrophic. On the Tuesday, Wednesday, after

1105
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:13,160
Speaker 2: the test match, I get we get a phone call

1106
00:55:13,200 --> 00:55:15,480
Speaker 2: and Terry picks up the phone. This is back when

1107
00:55:15,480 --> 00:55:18,480
Speaker 2: we used to have like literal real phones, have room

1108
00:55:18,560 --> 00:55:22,360
Speaker 2: phones and he says, oh, bows, I'll put him on

1109
00:55:22,440 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 2: and he like he puts the like puts the phone

1110
00:55:24,680 --> 00:55:27,520
Speaker 2: out of and he starts slipping his throat like he's

1111
00:55:27,520 --> 00:55:29,959
Speaker 2: going to catch it, you know. I get the phone,

1112
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,000
Speaker 2: I say bows and he says, robot made. I need

1113
00:55:33,040 --> 00:55:36,239
Speaker 2: you to come up and see me straight away. I'm like, oh, okay, Now,

1114
00:55:36,320 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 2: anyone who knows Bobby Fulton bozo like he's in a

1115
00:55:40,800 --> 00:55:43,680
Speaker 2: mortal right. He literally isn't a mall but he's just

1116
00:55:43,840 --> 00:55:46,640
Speaker 2: cool as a cucumber. Nothing gets under his skin. Mate,

1117
00:55:46,640 --> 00:55:49,080
Speaker 2: always everything that was always fine. I had a really

1118
00:55:49,120 --> 00:55:54,160
Speaker 2: good relationship with him. And my initial thought is a ship,

1119
00:55:54,280 --> 00:55:56,080
Speaker 2: is he going to cut me? You drop me? And

1120
00:55:56,120 --> 00:55:58,600
Speaker 2: like I said about earlier about the elite sports person,

1121
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,759
Speaker 2: and that's all I was, and I'm justified. So he

1122
00:56:01,800 --> 00:56:09,239
Speaker 2: come and I played for animal skin anyway. So I

1123
00:56:09,360 --> 00:56:13,920
Speaker 2: go up and obviously is in the penhouse up to

1124
00:56:14,719 --> 00:56:17,560
Speaker 2: go up to the top level and we'll get out

1125
00:56:17,600 --> 00:56:19,239
Speaker 2: the walk out the left and walk to the door

1126
00:56:19,280 --> 00:56:21,799
Speaker 2: and the door his door is just ajar, you know,

1127
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:24,040
Speaker 2: like six inches and I look in and then like this,

1128
00:56:25,080 --> 00:56:27,839
Speaker 2: Bobby Fulton cools the cucumber. He's pacing the room. Right,

1129
00:56:28,280 --> 00:56:30,880
Speaker 2: this is not like but this is not Bobby Fulton stuff.

1130
00:56:31,000 --> 00:56:32,719
Speaker 2: He's pacing and I felt like I was stood there

1131
00:56:32,719 --> 00:56:35,759
Speaker 2: for ages watching him patients and I'm sweating and what's

1132
00:56:35,800 --> 00:56:38,520
Speaker 2: going on? And i'mknock on the door and he said, Robie,

1133
00:56:38,520 --> 00:56:41,880
Speaker 2: come in, sit down, mate, sit down, and he starts

1134
00:56:41,920 --> 00:56:44,560
Speaker 2: pacing the room again, just like rubbing his beard. And

1135
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,319
Speaker 2: by this stage now I'm thinking there's there's more going

1136
00:56:48,360 --> 00:56:50,680
Speaker 2: on here. There's something happened to my mom and dad

1137
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,399
Speaker 2: or something. I'm thinking maybe there's some bad he's got.

1138
00:56:53,480 --> 00:56:56,160
Speaker 2: I said, just stop, what's what's happening? Just just tell

1139
00:56:56,200 --> 00:56:59,080
Speaker 2: me what's going on. This is not good. And he

1140
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,800
Speaker 2: stops and he looks at and he just says, you

1141
00:57:01,880 --> 00:57:04,279
Speaker 2: gotta understand. This is the hardest conversation this man's ever

1142
00:57:04,280 --> 00:57:07,760
Speaker 2: had in his life. He looks at me, he says, Robert,

1143
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:11,000
Speaker 2: you know what that in my day? I don't care. Mate,

1144
00:57:11,600 --> 00:57:14,600
Speaker 2: I'm like, what are you talking about it? He says,

1145
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:23,560
Speaker 2: you and Shane, my god, thanks both, thank you, thank

1146
00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:27,120
Speaker 2: you for saying that. Mate. That's he said, mate. But

1147
00:57:27,200 --> 00:57:29,560
Speaker 2: he's not allowed to stay within the hotel. Mate, you

1148
00:57:29,640 --> 00:57:33,200
Speaker 2: know the rules web money. You've let me down. I said,

1149
00:57:33,400 --> 00:57:35,040
Speaker 2: he's not base he's staying at the B and B

1150
00:57:35,200 --> 00:57:37,280
Speaker 2: up the road. He just popped in every couple of days.

1151
00:57:37,320 --> 00:57:40,120
Speaker 2: Said he says, so someone's give me the wrong information

1152
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,680
Speaker 2: that I said, yeah, he said, all right, crab like

1153
00:57:44,760 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 2: starts copying.

1154
00:57:45,400 --> 00:57:47,280
Speaker 3: He said, I knew you wouldn't let me down and

1155
00:57:47,720 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 3: said he's like, I knew you were three players. Said

1156
00:57:50,680 --> 00:57:52,080
Speaker 3: I don't know what I was carried on for like

1157
00:57:52,480 --> 00:57:55,800
Speaker 3: and it was like he did this whole like theatrical things,

1158
00:57:55,880 --> 00:57:58,360
Speaker 3: like he's doing cartwheels on this and I it was

1159
00:57:58,400 --> 00:57:59,320
Speaker 3: just one of those moments.

1160
00:57:59,360 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 2: I just like he stopped and I just said to

1161
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:04,880
Speaker 2: him the bows, thank you mate, I mean, thank you mate.

1162
00:58:04,920 --> 00:58:06,600
Speaker 2: I can't tell you what that meant to me. He's like,

1163
00:58:06,960 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 2: all good mate, Yeah, no worries. That was but it

1164
00:58:10,120 --> 00:58:12,480
Speaker 2: was the first time in my life I felt It's

1165
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:14,919
Speaker 2: hard to explain to someone. It was the first time

1166
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 2: in my life I felt validated. And this sounds a

1167
00:58:18,440 --> 00:58:21,240
Speaker 2: bit dicky and say as a gay man like who

1168
00:58:21,320 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 2: was a rugby league player and.

1169
00:58:22,880 --> 00:58:25,600
Speaker 1: Putting Bobby Fault in context, he is a legend.

1170
00:58:27,360 --> 00:58:29,080
Speaker 2: He was worried. That was the footing. He was my

1171
00:58:29,160 --> 00:58:31,120
Speaker 2: coach at Manly. I mean Shane used to be that

1172
00:58:31,200 --> 00:58:33,720
Speaker 2: the mascot, you know, the guy in the big an

1173
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:35,520
Speaker 2: eagle soup with wings and like.

1174
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:38,800
Speaker 1: Doing car I'm sure there was.

1175
00:58:38,240 --> 00:58:42,880
Speaker 2: Everyone was friendly with Shane, like Shane unfortunately passed away

1176
00:58:42,920 --> 00:58:45,280
Speaker 2: last year, had a heart attack, but we were best friends.

1177
00:58:45,320 --> 00:58:49,560
Speaker 2: We stayed very good friends. But it was just that moment, mate,

1178
00:58:49,560 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 2: I just like, like I remember like leaving that room

1179
00:58:52,640 --> 00:58:55,280
Speaker 2: ten foot tall man, just feeling like I'm just loving bows,

1180
00:58:55,320 --> 00:58:58,360
Speaker 2: just like feeling, oh, you get it, mate, you finally

1181
00:58:58,400 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 2: get it.

1182
00:58:59,040 --> 00:59:01,840
Speaker 1: Because it was always an uncomfortable.

1183
00:59:01,120 --> 00:59:04,600
Speaker 2: Situation for people to navigate you and I understood that,

1184
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,360
Speaker 2: but it was just like I can't. I just I

1185
00:59:07,400 --> 00:59:09,640
Speaker 2: played in every test match like like he didn't drop

1186
00:59:09,680 --> 00:59:13,080
Speaker 2: me or you like, we ended up winning the series

1187
00:59:13,080 --> 00:59:14,880
Speaker 2: to one. We went over to France, I played a

1188
00:59:14,880 --> 00:59:17,160
Speaker 2: couple we played a couple of games and test test

1189
00:59:17,200 --> 00:59:20,400
Speaker 2: matches over there as well. But it was just wonderful, mate.

1190
00:59:20,520 --> 00:59:23,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can see how animated you are just thinking

1191
00:59:23,240 --> 00:59:27,360
Speaker 1: about it must have been just a real off way

1192
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:30,680
Speaker 1: off the shoulders and like when when you had come

1193
00:59:30,720 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 1: out and how.

1194
00:59:32,040 --> 00:59:34,480
Speaker 2: Human I came back, like it really hit that, like

1195
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:37,560
Speaker 2: because I because like BOS made it easy for me too,

1196
00:59:37,600 --> 00:59:40,640
Speaker 2: because he must have spoked, because I like, later on

1197
00:59:40,680 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 2: I spoke, I'm just going to be game mate, like

1198
00:59:42,960 --> 00:59:44,760
Speaker 2: like it was kind of weird having that conversation with

1199
00:59:44,760 --> 00:59:46,920
Speaker 2: Bobby Film. I'm just going to be game mate, Like

1200
00:59:47,000 --> 00:59:49,320
Speaker 2: it sounds like a weird thing to say. I just

1201
00:59:49,880 --> 00:59:52,760
Speaker 2: I just like anyway, he said, that's all good, Robbie,

1202
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 2: like he had a word with a couple of Janneys.

1203
00:59:55,840 --> 00:59:58,920
Speaker 2: He made it really, he made it really, he just

1204
00:59:58,920 --> 01:00:01,120
Speaker 2: just he made it. He made it happen, like not

1205
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,240
Speaker 2: made it happen. But I told him that made I

1206
01:00:04,280 --> 01:00:06,800
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to This is what you gotta understand with me, mate,

1207
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:09,000
Speaker 2: I shouldn't have to come out mate. Yeah, like this

1208
01:00:09,080 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: is like I feel like I'm almost betraying myself here.

1209
01:00:11,800 --> 01:00:14,760
Speaker 2: Like it's he kind of got it, like and I

1210
01:00:14,840 --> 01:00:17,320
Speaker 2: just just think about that moment. But it's like you

1211
01:00:17,400 --> 01:00:19,600
Speaker 2: understood it, mate, Like it's just I'm playing good footy.

1212
01:00:19,640 --> 01:00:21,880
Speaker 2: That was that George Piggins moment again, mate, Yeah, where

1213
01:00:21,880 --> 01:00:25,120
Speaker 2: George you know what I mean? Where George even realized, oh, yeah,

1214
01:00:25,120 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 2: you're playing good footy. This is all this is about, really,

1215
01:00:27,720 --> 01:00:29,120
Speaker 2: like you know what I mean? It was almost that

1216
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 2: juggle in his mind. It's just I've been very lucky.

1217
01:00:31,720 --> 01:00:36,600
Speaker 1: Like well, there's been some good people for you, like supporting,

1218
01:00:36,800 --> 01:00:40,320
Speaker 1: supporting people and Terry Hill and others that would talk about.

1219
01:00:40,360 --> 01:00:43,720
Speaker 1: But there was also discrimination within the team. And there

1220
01:00:43,760 --> 01:00:46,400
Speaker 1: was one again I reference your book, but an incident

1221
01:00:46,720 --> 01:00:49,720
Speaker 1: where one of the players I don't know on the

1222
01:00:50,120 --> 01:00:55,440
Speaker 1: training field, tempers fled and he said some derogatory comments

1223
01:00:55,560 --> 01:00:59,440
Speaker 1: along the lines that you would imagine, and you took

1224
01:00:59,520 --> 01:01:03,120
Speaker 1: him the tar after and the thing I like, how

1225
01:01:03,120 --> 01:01:04,680
Speaker 1: you took him the task that there's going to be

1226
01:01:04,720 --> 01:01:08,240
Speaker 1: consequences if you did that again. There's physical consequences. But

1227
01:01:08,400 --> 01:01:10,680
Speaker 1: wake up yourself. It's not just about the impact that

1228
01:01:10,720 --> 01:01:13,200
Speaker 1: has on me. It's on the young players and other.

1229
01:01:13,360 --> 01:01:17,040
Speaker 2: That's right, mate, Like it's like, you know, I lose language,

1230
01:01:17,080 --> 01:01:20,880
Speaker 2: like you can't do you can't do that like people.

1231
01:01:20,920 --> 01:01:23,960
Speaker 2: It's quite literally there were people like I don't want

1232
01:01:23,960 --> 01:01:26,520
Speaker 2: to get into all those bad stats and statistics made,

1233
01:01:26,520 --> 01:01:29,080
Speaker 2: but it's a real thing, mate, Like as again that's

1234
01:01:29,200 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 2: I said, like a gay person listening to my coming

1235
01:01:32,320 --> 01:01:34,400
Speaker 2: out story is so familiar. Listen to that, you know,

1236
01:01:35,000 --> 01:01:37,280
Speaker 2: justin fashion your story, it's such a familiar story. It's

1237
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,240
Speaker 2: that's real stuff. Man. It's like you know, like it's

1238
01:01:40,280 --> 01:01:43,120
Speaker 2: like with the Pride Round with Manly like a couple

1239
01:01:43,160 --> 01:01:47,520
Speaker 2: of years ago, you know, with they like and I'm

1240
01:01:47,560 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 2: not going to sit here criticize any place that's not

1241
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:50,560
Speaker 2: it's not for me.

1242
01:01:50,960 --> 01:01:54,000
Speaker 1: And just to explain that if listeners didn't understand what

1243
01:01:54,080 --> 01:01:56,280
Speaker 1: happened there and correct me if I'm wrong, that was

1244
01:01:56,320 --> 01:01:59,320
Speaker 1: going to be the Pride Round, and certain jerseys were

1245
01:01:59,320 --> 01:02:01,920
Speaker 1: made up with about colors or whatever it was. And

1246
01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,120
Speaker 1: there was a couple of players in the team that

1247
01:02:04,200 --> 01:02:05,480
Speaker 1: said they're not going to play.

1248
01:02:05,320 --> 01:02:08,480
Speaker 2: Six six of them set out for cultural reasons and

1249
01:02:08,520 --> 01:02:12,080
Speaker 2: religious reasons. Right now, how do I put this up?

1250
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 2: There would have been so many, so many young people

1251
01:02:15,760 --> 01:02:18,760
Speaker 2: in the regional areas who wouldn't have heard much news

1252
01:02:18,760 --> 01:02:22,160
Speaker 2: that that that week. But because those some of those

1253
01:02:22,200 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 2: younger people were dealing with their own identity and that

1254
01:02:24,440 --> 01:02:26,720
Speaker 2: they definitely would have heard that story. Yeah, yeah, you know,

1255
01:02:26,920 --> 01:02:29,720
Speaker 2: and like that. It's that's what I'm talking about. That's

1256
01:02:29,720 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 2: the consequences, you know. Like, and I often feel like

1257
01:02:33,120 --> 01:02:35,520
Speaker 2: I because I do a lot of advocacy working in

1258
01:02:35,560 --> 01:02:38,680
Speaker 2: around this space in that area. Man, when I talk

1259
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:42,520
Speaker 2: when we talk about having these types of conversations. I

1260
01:02:42,520 --> 01:02:45,760
Speaker 2: always feel like for me or for my side or whatever,

1261
01:02:45,800 --> 01:02:48,920
Speaker 2: it's not even side, it's just my opinion is I

1262
01:02:48,960 --> 01:02:52,040
Speaker 2: feel like I need to be understanding. Just my starting

1263
01:02:52,080 --> 01:02:54,360
Speaker 2: point needs to be I need to be understanding of

1264
01:02:54,920 --> 01:02:59,520
Speaker 2: other people's potential misunderstanding. Okay, that's my starting point, and

1265
01:02:59,760 --> 01:03:02,000
Speaker 2: like you've got to have a conversation. Everything starts with

1266
01:03:02,040 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 2: a conversation. Yeah, I mean, but it's their statistics are

1267
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:09,680
Speaker 2: still out there and they're still devastating, and you know

1268
01:03:10,160 --> 01:03:15,440
Speaker 2: I have lost uh yea, yeah, well yeah, yeah, I

1269
01:03:15,480 --> 01:03:18,600
Speaker 2: definitely have lost friends. Like I can't imagine what would

1270
01:03:18,640 --> 01:03:21,120
Speaker 2: be losing like a son or a daughter, or.

1271
01:03:22,920 --> 01:03:25,680
Speaker 1: The pain pain that causes because some you know, and

1272
01:03:26,120 --> 01:03:28,720
Speaker 1: you've there's a lot of other examples. I think you

1273
01:03:28,760 --> 01:03:31,760
Speaker 1: were signing signing an autograph the kids after a stay

1274
01:03:31,800 --> 01:03:34,120
Speaker 1: of origin Blake and some knuckleheads run up and punch

1275
01:03:34,160 --> 01:03:35,800
Speaker 1: in the back of the head and run off, and.

1276
01:03:35,640 --> 01:03:40,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there was an incident at Saint George. Yeah,

1277
01:03:40,640 --> 01:03:45,400
Speaker 2: at halftime, go Rich and I think we were getting

1278
01:03:45,400 --> 01:03:47,040
Speaker 2: beaten at the time. At the time, we were a

1279
01:03:47,040 --> 01:03:49,400
Speaker 2: couple of points down and as we were walking off

1280
01:03:49,440 --> 01:03:53,560
Speaker 2: He just kind of reached over and said saying, I

1281
01:03:53,600 --> 01:03:58,560
Speaker 2: overreacted because I jumped. Yeah, and it's just ugly, you know,

1282
01:03:58,680 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 2: like it's just I get it, like you know, like

1283
01:04:01,120 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: you're talking about I never forget there was a state

1284
01:04:05,760 --> 01:04:11,040
Speaker 2: of origin, and like it's funny. I think it's funny.

1285
01:04:11,400 --> 01:04:13,840
Speaker 2: But just getting into the showers and one of the

1286
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:16,760
Speaker 2: other players made it very obvious that he was uncomfortable

1287
01:04:16,880 --> 01:04:19,720
Speaker 2: with like, and I was just like, make day flatter yourself.

1288
01:04:19,760 --> 01:04:23,360
Speaker 2: Trust me, You're safe, you know, trust me. I couldn't

1289
01:04:23,400 --> 01:04:29,040
Speaker 2: be that fucking drunk, you know what I mean. You

1290
01:04:29,040 --> 01:04:31,000
Speaker 2: know what I mean. And that's what I mean about

1291
01:04:31,040 --> 01:04:33,800
Speaker 2: making it about God. You find the humor in it somewhere,

1292
01:04:33,800 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 2: because even he started laughing, just like.

1293
01:04:37,320 --> 01:04:41,440
Speaker 1: I know, I understand. And the irony of the situation

1294
01:04:41,600 --> 01:04:43,880
Speaker 1: you found yourself in. You were in a culture that

1295
01:04:44,200 --> 01:04:46,720
Speaker 1: would have been out of all the cultures you could

1296
01:04:46,760 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 1: find yourself in, that would have been one that really struggled.

1297
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:51,760
Speaker 2: But also in the end, when people accepted an embrace,

1298
01:04:51,880 --> 01:04:53,240
Speaker 2: it brings the team closer together.

1299
01:04:53,520 --> 01:04:58,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I mean that you would have had people wanting, but.

1300
01:04:58,200 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 2: It just brings the team together to could you know

1301
01:05:02,600 --> 01:05:07,000
Speaker 2: Blake's like like Steve Menzies and Terry Hill and Jeff

1302
01:05:07,040 --> 01:05:11,160
Speaker 2: two like they were. They were so fantastic, embracing and

1303
01:05:12,480 --> 01:05:15,120
Speaker 2: jack girls like they were. It was wonderful. But it

1304
01:05:15,160 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 2: was I would say mostly a younger the generation younger

1305
01:05:18,840 --> 01:05:22,320
Speaker 2: than me, I felt saying to him, maybe because I

1306
01:05:22,440 --> 01:05:25,400
Speaker 2: was an older player, maybe you know, maybe I had

1307
01:05:25,840 --> 01:05:28,240
Speaker 2: Maybe that's what it was, but I did. I did

1308
01:05:28,440 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 2: feel it from a younger. Yeah, they it was. It

1309
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:35,240
Speaker 2: was very interesting. Well, the other thing is I keep saying,

1310
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:37,920
Speaker 2: is like, forget the whole gay thing. Like I'm going

1311
01:05:38,000 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 2: to sound like a dickhead now, but I was playing

1312
01:05:39,640 --> 01:05:42,480
Speaker 2: good footing, you know what I mean. That's that's that's

1313
01:05:42,520 --> 01:05:45,080
Speaker 2: what this was all about. Like I was playing good football,

1314
01:05:46,040 --> 01:05:48,040
Speaker 2: and that's what I'm about. George said, George.

1315
01:05:48,440 --> 01:05:51,640
Speaker 1: I don't know, like when, yeah, when that's all said

1316
01:05:51,680 --> 01:05:55,240
Speaker 1: and done, that that that was the issue. But look,

1317
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,000
Speaker 1: even when even when you came out, there was people

1318
01:05:58,040 --> 01:05:59,720
Speaker 1: that wanted you to be on the soap box a

1319
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,640
Speaker 1: whole time. And it's a personal thing, I would imagine,

1320
01:06:02,680 --> 01:06:06,560
Speaker 1: and some like gay journalists or whatever, why aren't you

1321
01:06:06,600 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: speaking out more? And you could sound like you couldn't win.

1322
01:06:09,560 --> 01:06:12,560
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly right. Well, yes, yes and no, I

1323
01:06:12,560 --> 01:06:15,960
Speaker 2: mean like yeah, like and I got to be honest,

1324
01:06:16,160 --> 01:06:20,600
Speaker 2: I still say like it I never felt. I don't

1325
01:06:20,600 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 2: know how like as I've gotten old, I've learned, you know,

1326
01:06:23,600 --> 01:06:27,160
Speaker 2: like I'm because I'm so grateful that I was born gay,

1327
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,280
Speaker 2: Like you know, I've become a bit like a bit

1328
01:06:29,320 --> 01:06:31,400
Speaker 2: of a super power for me, like the fact that

1329
01:06:31,480 --> 01:06:34,040
Speaker 2: I'm just I don't even know what that means, but

1330
01:06:34,080 --> 01:06:37,400
Speaker 2: I just feel like it's so enough. It's so it's

1331
01:06:37,440 --> 01:06:39,439
Speaker 2: not my mum and dad. But now you know, when

1332
01:06:39,440 --> 01:06:41,680
Speaker 2: they learned to embrace it, they became better for it.

1333
01:06:42,360 --> 01:06:44,160
Speaker 2: You know, I said a bit earlier about people like

1334
01:06:44,200 --> 01:06:46,800
Speaker 2: Johnny Lewis, like you know, I'm a better person for

1335
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 2: knowing Johnny. You know, like that type of thing. You

1336
01:06:49,520 --> 01:06:51,360
Speaker 2: get what I mean, And that's what I meant about.

1337
01:06:51,520 --> 01:06:54,560
Speaker 2: You asked me what type of person I would hope

1338
01:06:54,560 --> 01:06:56,240
Speaker 2: that like people just get to look.

1339
01:06:56,120 --> 01:06:59,280
Speaker 1: Well, I think if you're you've walked that path, so

1340
01:06:59,400 --> 01:07:03,920
Speaker 1: you understand and the pain of discrimination or anything that

1341
01:07:04,200 --> 01:07:08,160
Speaker 1: where people are ostercized for the things, the damage that

1342
01:07:08,160 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 1: can be done.

1343
01:07:08,800 --> 01:07:11,000
Speaker 2: And the damage that is done. Man, I mean, you know,

1344
01:07:11,120 --> 01:07:14,120
Speaker 2: like there had been some situations have been really ugly. Well,

1345
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:15,640
Speaker 2: you haven't touched on any of that stuff.

1346
01:07:16,080 --> 01:07:18,840
Speaker 1: We're going to touch on it in part two and

1347
01:07:19,480 --> 01:07:23,200
Speaker 1: what happened with young Aaron and the impact that had

1348
01:07:23,240 --> 01:07:27,000
Speaker 1: on you. But there was that at the time where

1349
01:07:27,080 --> 01:07:29,240
Speaker 1: you were coming out and you you were the like

1350
01:07:29,480 --> 01:07:31,800
Speaker 1: I'm saying from a member of the public, you were

1351
01:07:31,800 --> 01:07:34,240
Speaker 1: the you were the poster boy of rugby league. And

1352
01:07:34,240 --> 01:07:36,680
Speaker 1: then when you came out it was big news. Everyone

1353
01:07:36,840 --> 01:07:40,360
Speaker 1: everyone knew knew about it. But that was also when

1354
01:07:40,600 --> 01:07:41,560
Speaker 1: aids And.

1355
01:07:41,480 --> 01:07:47,280
Speaker 2: Then I've been blessed mate that I didn't pick up

1356
01:07:47,280 --> 01:07:50,040
Speaker 2: the HIV. Yes, like I had my first two partners

1357
01:07:50,080 --> 01:07:55,080
Speaker 2: both passed away with h But I've you know, I

1358
01:07:55,120 --> 01:07:59,400
Speaker 2: was quite promiscuous. That's not promiscuous. I was quite in

1359
01:07:59,400 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 2: the early eighties. It was on Oxford straight.

1360
01:08:02,040 --> 01:08:03,440
Speaker 1: But there was a lot of hate put on the

1361
01:08:03,480 --> 01:08:07,400
Speaker 1: Gaze because because of that, the misconception whether that's where

1362
01:08:07,640 --> 01:08:10,080
Speaker 1: the disease generated from or whatever, But it was all

1363
01:08:10,120 --> 01:08:12,880
Speaker 1: caught up in that time, the time and place. It

1364
01:08:12,920 --> 01:08:13,160
Speaker 1: was a.

1365
01:08:13,120 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: Difficult the whole bowling ball, the grim.

1366
01:08:17,960 --> 01:08:20,439
Speaker 1: Yeah, it was. It was a hard time. And then

1367
01:08:20,479 --> 01:08:24,880
Speaker 1: there was also misconceptions on your gay pedophiles. That that's

1368
01:08:24,920 --> 01:08:27,880
Speaker 1: another thing that plays into it. So yeah, it was

1369
01:08:28,600 --> 01:08:30,840
Speaker 1: a tough period of time you went through.

1370
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:35,080
Speaker 2: But yeah, but you know, I'm I'm great, and yeah

1371
01:08:35,120 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 2: it sounds weird looking back now I can so I'm grateful.

1372
01:08:38,280 --> 01:08:38,839
Speaker 2: I'm grateful.

1373
01:08:39,400 --> 01:08:44,040
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, well we'll come back in part two. And look,

1374
01:08:44,640 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: I say up front that it's going it's hard because

1375
01:08:47,800 --> 01:08:50,640
Speaker 1: I know it's had an impact. And you know, we

1376
01:08:50,720 --> 01:08:53,960
Speaker 1: sit here with like I Catch Killers, a crime podcast,

1377
01:08:54,240 --> 01:08:56,679
Speaker 1: but this is where crime touched you very personally, when

1378
01:08:57,320 --> 01:09:01,000
Speaker 1: young Aaron light was was murdered, and we'll talk about that,

1379
01:09:01,479 --> 01:09:04,320
Speaker 1: talk about a period of time that you described as

1380
01:09:04,360 --> 01:09:07,400
Speaker 1: the most content period of time when you left football

1381
01:09:07,600 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 1: and you're in Nider doing the acting of training to

1382
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:14,639
Speaker 1: become an actor and all the other things you're doing.

1383
01:09:14,720 --> 01:09:18,000
Speaker 1: So if we'll take a break and we'll be back

1384
01:09:18,160 --> 01:09:18,559
Speaker 1: shortly