Speaker 1: Today we're recording on Gadigoo Country and.
Speaker 2: We'd like to pay our respects to the traditional custodians
Speaker 2: of the Gaticol people.
Speaker 3: I know, you've got to dig this.
Speaker 2: It's like I've been given like an extra sprinkle of something.
Speaker 1: You've got layers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I got layers.
Speaker 4: I was just thinking, I'm like, we're just such beautiful storytellers.
Speaker 2: You're making a lot of sense to that girl. No,
Speaker 2: I'm done to honest to go.
Speaker 1: So today we have Dan Sultan in studio.
Speaker 3: Well, hey, Dan, thank you.
Speaker 1: How are you?
Speaker 3: I'm good?
Speaker 2: So before we kick off, can you just tell us
Speaker 2: a little bit about your community. Here's your mom Boddy from.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so my community is I grew up in Melbourne
Speaker 3: in the city. My mother Eastern Irelander and goldinga Central
Speaker 3: Australia and Well East are more central and Goldine is
Speaker 3: sort of northwest from there, and that's on my mother's side.
Speaker 3: My mom's side, we also have Afghanis, so that's the camel,
Speaker 3: the Camaliers. That's where Sultan or Sultan comes from, and
Speaker 3: some Irish as well. My father's side is Irish descent.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so is it proper pronouncing Sultan?
Speaker 3: I think it just depends on where where you Yeah, yeah,
Speaker 3: Sultan is. I think it's pretty cool.
Speaker 1: I actually kind of love that, Like Dan Sultan, that's when.
Speaker 3: I'm feeling a bit more pretentious.
Speaker 5: Oh, keeping appearances, missus, missus bucket, it's bouquet, Yeah, it's
Speaker 5: Sultan target.
Speaker 3: Exactly.
Speaker 2: Well, Dan, we're so excited to have you on and
Speaker 2: you've had such an accomplished career. All of your accolades,
Speaker 2: all of these achievements really put you in the top
Speaker 2: tier with some of the Australia's best icons. We're talking
Speaker 2: Troy Cassa daily, but so many others as well. What's
Speaker 2: it like brushing shoulders with these legends.
Speaker 3: I sat, I did it. I was part of a
Speaker 3: show and there was him, Frankie Yamma, Uncle Frankie Yamma,
Speaker 3: and a couple of folks from Midnight Oil, and they
Speaker 3: were talking about the eighties and some tours they were on,
Speaker 3: and I just sort of sat in Golden age, you know,
Speaker 3: And I wasn't like, I wasn't like twenty two. I
Speaker 3: was like, you know, thirty seven. But I just remember
Speaker 3: sitting there and just yeah, being really aware that Okada,
Speaker 3: you're like spinning out a good listen. You know, it
Speaker 3: was pretty awesome and funny and yeah, you know, just
Speaker 3: having a laugh about that time, this or whatever it is.
Speaker 2: You know those stories.
Speaker 3: Hey, good people, you know, especially Uncle Troy. I mean
Speaker 3: he's he's the best.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, how many golden guitars is I was.
Speaker 3: Saying recently, He's got to be the most awarded Australian
Speaker 3: in any field, yeah, sports, anything, he would in history.
Speaker 3: And his wife too, who's at the top of her
Speaker 3: game for decades and same as him. And they've raised
Speaker 3: a family. You know, to be a success in something
Speaker 3: in your koreer, you have to sacrifice family. And I
Speaker 3: understand that narrative to an extent, but it's not necessarily
Speaker 3: the case all the time with some special people like
Speaker 3: the Cassadalis. Have raised a really beautiful family, very amazing
Speaker 3: kids or young adults, and both of them have just
Speaker 3: been at the top of their fields for decades. You know,
Speaker 3: that family, him and Laurel heroes.
Speaker 2: You know, it's.
Speaker 3: Beautiful and they're nice. They're nice people and he was
Speaker 3: never heard them bring anyone down. I've never heard them,
Speaker 3: never seen him show an ounce of you know, toxic
Speaker 3: ambition or competitiveness or anything like that. Really beautiful, calm, funny.
Speaker 1: Yeah, talented.
Speaker 4: Well even asked like just a light hearted question about Beyonce,
Speaker 4: and he even like gave her the biggest rape.
Speaker 2: I was like, you know, one of the most awarded
Speaker 2: country artists in our country, what do you think a
Speaker 2: cowboy cart And he's like, tell the truth, we need
Speaker 2: your sign of approval.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, someone who was wined this into There was someone
Speaker 3: who was nominated in that category this year. Like she's
Speaker 3: from the South, so as far as she's an amazing artist,
Speaker 3: but there was someone who's nominated in that category at
Speaker 3: the Grammys this year who used to sing reggae with
Speaker 3: an accent and now they put on a cowboy hat
Speaker 3: and they've changed their accent. And he's meant to be
Speaker 3: some kind of authority. Oh why didn't he get it.
Speaker 3: It's just like, look, it's to their own you're not
Speaker 3: telling anyone what to do. But these are the facts,
Speaker 3: you know. So Beyonce, it's you know, this idea that
Speaker 3: she had no business winning that award or anything. It's
Speaker 3: just complete rubbish. She's an absolute boss and she can
Speaker 3: and that's the thing. It's just like like Dolly and
Speaker 3: just people like that thing totally and they're amazing, and
Speaker 3: there's always going to be naysayers, but I think the
Speaker 3: people that are those naysays, it says a bit more
Speaker 3: about them than anything else.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I wanted to ask, like, when you were coming
Speaker 2: up and you were, you know, first, how did your
Speaker 2: eyes set on music? Who were the people that stood
Speaker 2: out for you as inspiration? Yeah.
Speaker 3: So I've always known that I'm an artist, and I've
Speaker 3: always known that I'm a musician. So it's my earliest
Speaker 3: not even earliest memory, it's just it's just always been there.
Speaker 3: So I feel very fortunate for that. I mean, I
Speaker 3: grew up listening to, like anyone else, whatever was on
Speaker 3: the stereo in the house, but there were certainly things
Speaker 3: that resonated with me more than other things. And that
Speaker 3: was generally speaking, it was the oldest stuff, like fifties
Speaker 3: and sixties, you know music. Dad listened to stuff from
Speaker 3: the seventies a bit Pleetwood Mac, which I didn't mind.
Speaker 3: But I loved Jimmy Hendrix. Obsessed with Jimmy Hendrix. I've
Speaker 3: been playing guitar whole life and he's just you know, amazing.
Speaker 3: And Sam Cook, notice reading. What about roy Alison, roy Albison,
Speaker 3: who's got the greatest voice that anyone will ever have,
Speaker 3: you know, an absolute genius vocalist.
Speaker 4: There's real hearty artists that like, they weren't like this
Speaker 4: stereotypical like pop artists. They were more like the real
Speaker 4: I would take a bit more grunge, a bit more
Speaker 4: like deeper, more debt, like they've been through some stuff.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it's interesting.
Speaker 3: Because I think for the time, you know, there were
Speaker 3: certainly pop I mean, yeah, you know, but maybe pop
Speaker 3: had a bit more to it then. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: not for me to say. I think that there's a
Speaker 3: lot of substance to a lot of different things these days.
Speaker 3: And I'm certainly not going to be one of those
Speaker 3: artists or songwriters that everything's shipped now and everything needs
Speaker 3: to be good and now it's ship because I don't
Speaker 3: feel that way at all. But I think you can
Speaker 3: tell there's a difference between an act and an artist,
Speaker 3: and the word artist gets used pretty in my opinion,
Speaker 3: as an artist is that different. It gets used pretty freely.
Speaker 3: Honesty and empathy or the capacity for empathy. So I
Speaker 3: sing songs that I haven't written from time to time.
Speaker 3: If it doesn't resonate, and if I don't feel something
Speaker 3: that's that empathy, then it's it feels pointless to me.
Speaker 3: And I feel the same way as as an audience
Speaker 3: member as well. But you know, I'm not an authority
Speaker 3: on who is or who isn't I know that I'm
Speaker 3: an authority on myself. It's none of my business, you know.
Speaker 3: But yeah, but back then, I think I think famous
Speaker 3: people used to be really talented, you know, And that
Speaker 3: might be a bit of a grab. Don't use that
Speaker 3: for the socialist because it's a bit of.
Speaker 4: What you.
Speaker 2: Had to be exceptional.
Speaker 3: Well you know, you could sing, but you're an amazing
Speaker 3: drammer and you're an amazing tap dancer and like just
Speaker 3: these like talented psychos, you know. And that's still the
Speaker 3: case now. I mean you look at you know, Grande,
Speaker 3: you know, acting, singing, graded impressions, you know, things like
Speaker 3: that funny you know, great comic timing, that sort of thing.
Speaker 3: So that's still present. And as far as Australian acts
Speaker 3: or local artists, yeah, a c DC big time. But
Speaker 3: I hear a c DC and I hear soul music
Speaker 3: when they were looking for a singer this is a
Speaker 3: while ago now. I think they got Axel Rose, which
Speaker 3: I think worked for a couple of shows and then
Speaker 3: his voice blew out and it didn't work anymore. Bless him,
Speaker 3: but you know, that's just the way it is. But
Speaker 3: Sharon Jones, who's no longer with us, great soul singer,
Speaker 3: I was like, they've got to she would kill this,
Speaker 3: you know, thinking those big So that's sort of how
Speaker 3: I always heard it. But you know, there's there's the
Speaker 3: things that's like the representation matters thing, which is absolutely true.
Speaker 3: And i'd see uncle Arch, you know. I remember being
Speaker 3: at a festival, big festival, in a huge crowd as
Speaker 3: a kid and seeing you're the indie and you know,
Speaker 3: that's something that I'll never forget. That didn't convince me
Speaker 3: that I could do it just because they could do it,
Speaker 3: you know, but it was certainly a part of it,
Speaker 3: you know. But I saw them. I don't think they
Speaker 3: resonated with me just because they were first nations. You know,
Speaker 3: there was great music in my opinion at the time
Speaker 3: and now, and I was there with my cousins who
Speaker 3: had come over from Adelaide, you know, and we were
Speaker 3: watching this stage. It's huge stage. It was St. Kilda
Speaker 3: Festival a long time ago, huge stage with a huge
Speaker 3: crowd and big light show and loud, and I mean
Speaker 3: they were just owning it, you know. So that's something
Speaker 3: that stuck with me.
Speaker 2: Wow. I mean I always think about, like when I
Speaker 2: started to think about what I wanted in life in
Speaker 2: my career, Like, was there a light bulb moment for me?
Speaker 2: There was a light bulb moment for me? Was that
Speaker 2: the light bulb moment for you seeing them on stage?
Speaker 2: Or you say that you didn't have like you were
Speaker 2: innately always an artist and you felt that in yourself,
Speaker 2: but there was there a moment where a switch came
Speaker 2: on where you're like, this is what I'm going to
Speaker 2: do for a living.
Speaker 4: I was going to ask the same thing because we
Speaker 4: talk about first lived experiences all the time, and I
Speaker 4: guess we value those like pivotal moments because we look
Speaker 4: back on them and we're like, oh, that's where we
Speaker 4: were and now we're here, Like, what was that moment
Speaker 4: for you?
Speaker 3: I don't think I've had that moment, or if I did,
Speaker 3: I had it a couple of weeks ago.
Speaker 2: Music.
Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, there wasn't heaps of music in the house.
Speaker 3: But you know, certainly talent throughout the generations, and we
Speaker 3: didn't have much, so you know, we didn't have a
Speaker 3: lot of things. There were certainly people worse off, but
Speaker 3: we didn't have a lot of things. So, you know, piano.
Speaker 3: I would play piano at my friend's houses. And I
Speaker 3: was really lucky though I could I could remember, and
Speaker 3: I could practice in my head. You know. Yeah, time
Speaker 3: i'd get back to whoever's place who had a piano,
Speaker 3: I've been practicing.
Speaker 1: In your head.
Speaker 3: Yeah, way, I was.
Speaker 4: Yeah, my dad's a musician, but he's an optimist by
Speaker 4: a trade, so he looks at people's eyes constantly, but
Speaker 4: in his head he's like doing music things. So I
Speaker 4: kind of like know when he's like he's a great
Speaker 4: but he was saying, like he can listen to something,
Speaker 4: it's so crazy, and then like any instrument kind of
Speaker 4: pick up anything.
Speaker 1: Hey you've met uncle, Uncle Pete.
Speaker 4: You've met Pete, but saying it's so funny how you
Speaker 4: say pianos in like your friend's houses. Because innately we
Speaker 4: all sort of in it. And my family like we
Speaker 4: loved music, but none of us like did it. My
Speaker 4: brother knows the piano and like he loved it, but
Speaker 4: we didn't have one. So he did the exact same thing.
Speaker 4: He would like not remember music or anything, but like
Speaker 4: he would always go and play at his friend's house.
Speaker 4: I'm like, where's Troy. He's gone down to the friend's
Speaker 4: house to like play piano. And now we all have
Speaker 4: pianos in a house.
Speaker 1: It's crazy.
Speaker 3: Well that was a nice marker for me. I mean,
Speaker 3: we speak about those moments and this isn't exactly what
Speaker 3: you were asking, but you know, to be in my
Speaker 3: own place with an upright piano one day, Yeah, I've
Speaker 3: got that now and my own place I'm trying. I'm
Speaker 3: working on that own my own house, you know. So
Speaker 3: my kids are you know, they work past the piano
Speaker 3: and they play it and then they wanted whatever they're doing,
Speaker 3: and that's just there.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: And so I'm really proud of that. And it was
Speaker 3: an old thing that was getting thrown out and one
Speaker 3: of those things if anyone wants this, you know. And
Speaker 3: I was a friend of a friend and yeah, it's
Speaker 3: a nice piano. It's not in tune, but to tune
Speaker 3: it up. Yeah, characters, And every time we've we've moved,
Speaker 3: which hopefully we will never move. We know, changes again, yeah,
Speaker 3: just changes. He's a bit kind of edgy, and I
Speaker 3: just think I can I can relate, you know.
Speaker 2: I love that. Yeah, well you've just come off the
Speaker 2: back of a massive tour. You know, how many weeks
Speaker 2: has it been since you finished?
Speaker 3: It's been what is it, Thursday? It's been one week?
Speaker 2: One week?
Speaker 5: Yeah, okay, he's feeling tired always.
Speaker 3: Yeah, well I feel good.
Speaker 2: Yeah, what's were life like?
Speaker 3: Do you take the fan sometimes? The first show of
Speaker 3: the two was at the fore Court Opera House, four Court,
Speaker 3: and that was huge. So, again coming back to that
Speaker 3: original question, that moment, I think I left that show.
Speaker 3: You know, I've played two big crowds before, but that
Speaker 3: was both far the biggest audience that I've ever had
Speaker 3: one of my shows. And so I think after that
Speaker 3: show is what that moment?
Speaker 2: Okay, that's so and that's it's so interesting that that's
Speaker 2: like three weeks. You're you're such a fully fledged artist,
Speaker 2: you know, and you've done so much in your career
Speaker 2: and you're having that moment now, Like I wonder how
Speaker 2: often that happens for people, if they have that moment
Speaker 2: later on in their life, I.
Speaker 3: Think if you if you're working and if you're going
Speaker 3: for it, you you move the bar, you know. I
Speaker 3: think one thing that's really that I feel fortunate for
Speaker 3: is I remember where the bar was a long a
Speaker 3: long time ago. Yea, and friend of mine, great artists,
Speaker 3: he was on a particular radio station in Melbourne. He'd
Speaker 3: put on shows and he'd have the big street posters,
Speaker 3: and I remember thinking, that is what I want. And
Speaker 3: you know, I've had that for a long time now,
Speaker 3: but I remember that was that was a bar and
Speaker 3: a great bar, you know. But you moved the bar
Speaker 3: that But I feel like the other day after the
Speaker 3: opera House, and not that I'm with completely without ambition,
Speaker 3: because I'm not, but it's you know, I think after
Speaker 3: the opera House, it's like I've just I'm still moving
Speaker 3: the bar, but maybe just not as quickly.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: It's just like I'm just I'm just allowing myself to just, yeah,
Speaker 3: be in this space for a little bit.
Speaker 2: Is it easy for you to be present in those moments?
Speaker 3: Yea, it is. Fortunately, I've had a lot of big
Speaker 3: moments where I haven't been and.
Speaker 1: I'm and do you remember them? Because I feel like.
Speaker 3: I remember forgetting them, if that makes any I agree.
Speaker 1: I remember not being in it.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: I had a show. I used to work at the
Speaker 3: Falls Festival down in Lawn and I worked on site there.
Speaker 3: I worked. I was friends with someone who lived there
Speaker 3: and we worked together. He was my first manager, actually, Buzz,
Speaker 3: and I spent a lot of time down there through
Speaker 3: the year and literally raking the fields of Rocks Campus
Speaker 3: and New Years wouldn't be setting up their tents on Rocks.
Speaker 3: I was digging drainage, you know, drainage routes on the
Speaker 3: dirt roads, and the stage there is a permanent structure,
Speaker 3: and I would just look at that stage and there
Speaker 3: was I was, you know, a late teen and early
Speaker 3: twenties during this period, and I'd be there all year
Speaker 3: and it was wonderful and I'd look at that stage
Speaker 3: and I think one day, one day and then it
Speaker 3: was a record I put out Black, which was in
Speaker 3: twenty fifteen, and we were booked on the Falls and
Speaker 3: I'd played the Falls a few times before that, but
Speaker 3: this was my biggest record at the time. And the
Speaker 3: spot that I had was like five pm or four
Speaker 3: pm on that stage on the Saturday, which is the
Speaker 3: spot without being a headliner where you're going on last
Speaker 3: and it's like huge, but if you're one of the
Speaker 3: non headliners, that's a really great spot. And you know,
Speaker 3: I used to drink too much, and I wasn't drinking
Speaker 3: during the show, but I was. I'd had a drink
Speaker 3: a few days before, you know. And I don't mean
Speaker 3: i'd drink a few days I mean for the few
Speaker 3: days before, you know. Anyway, we got there and I
Speaker 3: was on stage, and before we got on, it started raining,
Speaker 3: and it just cleared out and you just think it's
Speaker 3: just sort of nightmare stuff. We got on and the
Speaker 3: set started with like a drum intro and it was
Speaker 3: just and then I just watched like ten fifteen thousand
Speaker 3: people come from everywhere and it was amazing. And this
Speaker 3: was my moment that i'd been I'd be on the
Speaker 3: cord bike cruising around with rakes and shovels in the
Speaker 3: in the train and I'd just be looking at that
Speaker 3: stage and I was there, you know, wow, performing but
Speaker 3: I wasn't well and I had an anxiety attack pretty
Speaker 3: soon at the at the start of that set. The
Speaker 3: set was fine and we did it, but I was
Speaker 3: hanging on for dear life for that whole set.
Speaker 1: Yeah, survival mode.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and I missed it.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 3: And then I released my next record, Killer after that,
Speaker 3: and I was like, I won't miss it again. And
Speaker 3: we didn't get booked on the Falls again. So that's it. Okay,
Speaker 3: you know, that's it, and I've found peace with that.
Speaker 3: But I remember, I think about that moment and I'm
Speaker 3: able to especially now. I mean, I'm, you know, coming
Speaker 3: up seven years completely sober. Wow, coffee and I have
Speaker 3: some bubbles in my water.
Speaker 2: That's phenomenal. That's an amazing feat.
Speaker 3: Especially now. It's all about being present, and I've been.
Speaker 3: I've been lucky enough to stand on some incredible stages.
Speaker 3: I supported Vance Joy in the States and sang at
Speaker 3: Red Rocks and then it's just the other night over
Speaker 3: at the Opera House and I'm able to be there.
Speaker 1: Yeah, take it in.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: I had that experience at Falls, but also just in
Speaker 3: general everyday life. I'm able to just.
Speaker 2: Be around you when you were going through that moment
Speaker 2: of drinking and partaking in things that maybe weren't so
Speaker 2: good for yourself, Like, was that a coping mechanism for
Speaker 2: you or was there something you just found as a
Speaker 2: fun thing to do or.
Speaker 3: Do you Well, I guess it's fun until it's not
Speaker 3: until it's not. But yeah, coping definitely. And I was
Speaker 3: speaking about it with my wife before coming in speaking
Speaker 3: about you too.
Speaker 6: Yeah, because yeah, And you know, the fact of the
Speaker 6: matter is has been First Nations, is that we are traumatized.
Speaker 3: And to be a young First Nations person that is
Speaker 3: attaining any kind of success in the chosen field, we
Speaker 3: have to be twice as good to get half as
Speaker 3: much as each of you would know, as well as
Speaker 3: anyone else. And you know, conversely, we're going to be
Speaker 3: half as bad to get twice a condemnation, you know,
Speaker 3: which is all retraumatizing and reshaming and all of that
Speaker 3: kind of stuff.
Speaker 1: You're surviving, You're like, I mean, yeah.
Speaker 3: It is coping, and it is self medicating.
Speaker 4: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, it's not until you start that you're actually able
Speaker 3: to start dealing with stuff.
Speaker 2: What made you stop?
Speaker 3: I well, there was a moment that you know, a
Speaker 3: lot of a lot of things made me stop. You know,
Speaker 3: I stopped in twenty eighteen. I had a show I
Speaker 3: was really out of it. Someone reported on it and
Speaker 3: it got picked up by National news and it was
Speaker 3: like three.
Speaker 2: Days a bit of an unveiling was like just.
Speaker 3: Total demonization and like even to the point that a
Speaker 3: newspaper had a picture of me on the front cover
Speaker 3: and they were like writing a story about why should
Speaker 3: we give blackfellows arts grants if they're just going to
Speaker 3: piss it against the wall and you know, things like that.
Speaker 3: I mean, I'd won like four or five areas up
Speaker 3: to that point. It was hardly pissing anything up against
Speaker 3: the wall. Absolutely, but you know, that was a narrative
Speaker 3: and it was appalling.
Speaker 2: Now if your counterparts did that, well.
Speaker 3: That did well. You know, boys will be boys or whatever,
Speaker 3: you know what I mean. It's or you know, young
Speaker 3: people are rock and roll and all that bullshit, which
Speaker 3: it is complete bullshit. Yeah, we all know, and I
Speaker 3: think a lot of most people know out there, you know,
Speaker 3: but it's just this narrative stuff. Look, so I was
Speaker 3: completely humiliated, you know, and it was really scary. But
Speaker 3: you know, it's an ego death.
Speaker 4: How do your experience is great like before but before
Speaker 4: this time, like anything like in the media that kind.
Speaker 3: No, not like that. No, it's the first time I'd
Speaker 3: sort of experienced it again, you know, you know since
Speaker 3: but now that was the first time, and you know,
Speaker 3: look that was in twenty eighteen. There were things, you
Speaker 3: know that my the way I used to drink, that
Speaker 3: would have warranted me stopping drinking from you know, two
Speaker 3: thousand and eight onwards. Two thousand and eight is when
Speaker 3: I started to drink. And I wouldn't drink every day,
Speaker 3: all day, every day, but it would just be when
Speaker 3: I did, you know, I just couldn't trust myself, you know.
Speaker 3: So a lot of things led to it, but it
Speaker 3: was that moment, yeah, you know, and I was like,
Speaker 3: all right, well that's enough, and I was you know,
Speaker 3: I had people around me that helped me, of course,
Speaker 3: you know, my then girlfriend who's now my wife, and
Speaker 3: I went to rehab and they spoke about the neurological
Speaker 3: side of things, which is, you know, anywhere from three
Speaker 3: months to three years is how long it takes to
Speaker 3: reset your signapses. You know, it could be three months
Speaker 3: or and I was sinking three months and then three
Speaker 3: months was up and we got pregnant with our first kid,
Speaker 3: and I was like, well that's it. Because I always
Speaker 3: knew that I wasn't going to be a drunk parent
Speaker 3: or a party kind of guy or even you know,
Speaker 3: certainly not around the kids, but even you know, being
Speaker 3: a bit hungover the next day and being with the kids.
Speaker 3: And I always knew, and this isn't a judgment call
Speaker 3: on anyone else, This is just what I always aspired
Speaker 3: to for myself. And she was due a year to
Speaker 3: the day of that show where I was horrors, you know,
Speaker 3: so I was like, well, it's pretty.
Speaker 4: This is Do you believe in that sort of stuff?
Speaker 4: Like do you get superstitious about like like I mean
Speaker 4: superstitious and over general?
Speaker 2: I mean, you believe in manifestation because when you're raking
Speaker 2: them rocks, that's what you're doing. You're manifesting that moment
Speaker 2: it happened, do you know what I mean? That's that's
Speaker 2: such a powerful visualization and then it comes to life.
Speaker 3: And there was some advice I was given when I
Speaker 3: was a kid as well by some older rock stars.
Speaker 3: Basically there's no other way to put it, and they
Speaker 3: just said, just envision yourself doing it. And the thing is,
Speaker 3: I think before I started coping in other ways, when
Speaker 3: I was little, you know, I talked about playing piano
Speaker 3: in my head and all that sort of stuff. That
Speaker 3: was my manifestation. I just go take myself away into
Speaker 3: myself and just hours just yeah, having this journey, Yeah,
Speaker 3: being on stage and you know when you're doing it.
Speaker 2: I've done small stints of sobriety over the years, and
Speaker 2: last year I did about one hundred and twenty days,
Speaker 2: and that was a big since I was eighteen, probably
Speaker 2: the longest time I did feel amazing. Like I was
Speaker 2: walking down the street one day and I turned to
Speaker 2: my partner, I said, I can't tell you how great
Speaker 2: I feel like.
Speaker 3: It's good.
Speaker 2: It's this lightness within your soul, you know. And for me,
Speaker 2: I felt like I did it because there was a
Speaker 2: job coming that I had to be really sharp for
Speaker 2: and so I sort of put myself through this sobriety
Speaker 2: for one hundred and about twenty days was where I
Speaker 2: got to. And I'd never felt like that because since eighteen,
Speaker 2: or since even earlier, I'd been drinking, you know, and
Speaker 2: I've been doing the party thing, and the alcohol is
Speaker 2: a gateway for me, you know, for other things as well.
Speaker 2: So I've had, like very much journeys down so many
Speaker 2: different paths that I'm just not proud of when I'm
Speaker 2: you know, intoxicated. So I have been doing these like
Speaker 2: stints of sobriety, and it's been difficult, to say the least,
Speaker 2: Like it actually isn't easy in this industry when you're
Speaker 2: totally you know, a part of events and the nature
Speaker 2: of how things and relationships work in this industry. Like
Speaker 2: you know, I'm selling my twenties. I'm hoping that you know,
Speaker 2: I continue down this road and one day I get
Speaker 2: it right. But I wanted to ask you once you
Speaker 2: had made that decision and these years that have passed, now,
Speaker 2: do you as you go on, do you find that
Speaker 2: you're getting stronger in that sobriety aspect or do you
Speaker 2: feel like it's something that you don't even is not
Speaker 2: even a concern anymore for you.
Speaker 3: I think it's always a concern. Yep, you know, like
Speaker 3: anything that you know is dangerous, it's always a concern. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you know out here there is you know, what do
Speaker 3: we like ten stories up or you know, eight stories
Speaker 3: up standing on the edge of that is always going
Speaker 3: to be a concern. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, even if
Speaker 3: you don't do it that often. Yeah, you know that
Speaker 3: being said, I can be in a hotel room with
Speaker 3: a mini bar and it doesn't I don't go near it,
Speaker 3: you know, And I've never had a moment of like,
Speaker 3: oh I wish I can't be in here right now,
Speaker 3: you know, because I decided the thing is with an
Speaker 3: alcoholic and you know, and a person who you know
Speaker 3: is that way. It's all or nothing, agreed. So the music,
Speaker 3: the artistry, the work, you know, it's all or nothing.
Speaker 3: So for me having a bit and then just being
Speaker 3: okay and just trying to sort of write it a
Speaker 3: bit or figure it out and figure out little Oh,
Speaker 3: if I do it like this, then that's all right,
Speaker 3: that's just it just doesn't work tricky. Yeah, yeah, you know.
Speaker 3: So I made that choice, and I make that choice
Speaker 3: every day. It's not my wife's responsibility, it's not my
Speaker 3: kid's responsibility. It's my privilege to be as good as
Speaker 3: I am for myself and for them. And it's certainly
Speaker 3: my responsibility and it's an honor. And I was able
Speaker 3: to achieve excellence before I got sober many times. And yeah,
Speaker 3: it's it's so there was a there was a real
Speaker 3: confidence that came from that. Yeah, those experiences which helps definitely.
Speaker 3: But like I said, its ego death. I mean you said,
Speaker 3: for me, I was like chipping away chipping away, chipping away,
Speaker 3: and there was this husk and then in one, in
Speaker 3: one moment, that husk is gone, and fortunately for me,
Speaker 3: that there was something behind it that I could then
Speaker 3: build yeah on because it wasn't just. It wasn't bullshit,
Speaker 3: and it wasn't just, and it wasn't lies or you know,
Speaker 3: anything like that. There was a lot of substance there,
Speaker 3: But there was a lot of substances as well.
Speaker 1: You know, your craft was still yours.
Speaker 3: I was born, I was born being able to do ith.
Speaker 3: I was born an artist, and I was born with
Speaker 3: that knowledge and that peace and that yeah awareness. So
Speaker 3: I'm very lucky. But I was also born with the
Speaker 3: with the work ethic to be able to do it.
Speaker 3: I was on my way to rehab, thinking I should
Speaker 3: have done this two years ago, and in a moment,
Speaker 3: in that moment, I said, well, I'm not going to
Speaker 3: say the same thing in two years.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 2: Yeah, And been getting sober affect the.
Speaker 3: Art, oh greatly. Yeah, I mean I'm making I'm better
Speaker 3: than I've ever been. We were talking about Joel before,
Speaker 3: who I made my my most recent record with, and
Speaker 3: he's worked with me when I've been affected, and he's
Speaker 3: worked with me when I haven't. That record that we
Speaker 3: made is beautiful and it means something. And I have
Speaker 3: always been as honest as I possibly could be with
Speaker 3: all of my work, which I think is essential to
Speaker 3: being an artist. But the big changes my capabilities of
Speaker 3: how honest I'm able to be has changed because you
Speaker 3: might be able to be as honest as you possibly can,
Speaker 3: and that's a mindset and a heart set moving into something,
Speaker 3: but you might only be able to be that honest.
Speaker 3: You might not be capable of me. And now it's like,
Speaker 3: you know, so it's affected it greatly, But you know,
Speaker 3: my sobriety isn't the answer. The answer is the boundary
Speaker 3: that I've set myself. And you know, I'm sure you'd
Speaker 3: know as well as anyone. When you set a boundary
Speaker 3: and you stick to it, it's so good for you,
Speaker 3: so good for your self esteem and moving forward and
Speaker 3: your peace. You know.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to ask a few questions about music,
Speaker 2: so great, like let's talk about sobriety.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for sure, And it can be the last thing.
Speaker 3: There's a bit of a narrative about me personally that
Speaker 3: you know, I got sober for my family and I
Speaker 3: did to an extent, but not as a father. I mean,
Speaker 3: I've been sober longer than I've been a father. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and I think that's pretty clear. But there's some I've
Speaker 3: seen some things pop up, you know, where it's like
Speaker 3: he's got sober for his kids, So that implies that
Speaker 3: I was a drunk dad, which I've never been a
Speaker 3: drunk dad. And that also leans into some stereotypes. Yeah,
Speaker 3: you which is all very good on a real or
Speaker 3: or on a post on Instagram or wherever, and that
Speaker 3: is the case for some people. That's not the case
Speaker 3: for me. I got sober and then a year later
Speaker 3: my daughter was Jews. She arrived a week early because
Speaker 3: she knows everything.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I'm coming.
Speaker 3: I was sober fifty one weeks before before I yeah,
Speaker 3: you know, And I just wanted to make that clear.
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point.
Speaker 4: And the stereotypes, especially in the media world, like were
Speaker 4: kind of touched on, like how they liked to you know,
Speaker 4: you do one bad thing and they you sort of
Speaker 4: get demon eyed, like.
Speaker 3: Bad thing, scary black, it's a scary blackie thing, totally
Speaker 3: scary black, scary you know, scary drunk black person, you know,
Speaker 3: and it's this thing, you know, and I've actually, you know,
Speaker 3: we deal with it every day. I've dealt with it
Speaker 3: recently and I won't say where because it's irrelevant, but
Speaker 3: you know, I was. I was in a situation recently
Speaker 3: where I was profiled. I mean, I had to speak
Speaker 3: to someone about something very important and I wasn't I'm
Speaker 3: not an aggressive person and I'm not heavy handed, you
Speaker 3: know these days. I know when I was unwell, I'm
Speaker 3: sure that and I know it for a fact that
Speaker 3: I would have made people feel uncomfortable from time to time,
Speaker 3: and you know, so I'll just put that out there,
Speaker 3: which I'm not proud of, and that's why I got sober,
Speaker 3: amongst other reasons. But I said that was the last thing.
Speaker 4: But that was.
Speaker 3: But you know, it happened the other day and then
Speaker 3: I had a follow up phone call from someone where
Speaker 3: they where they told me that that sort of thing
Speaker 3: is unacceptable, and I was like, it was it had
Speaker 3: something to do with my kids, and I was like, listen,
Speaker 3: as a parent, I would do, I would react the
Speaker 3: exact same way again, and I'll react that way every day.
Speaker 3: And I didn't. I didn't say it, but I made
Speaker 3: it very clear that I knew what was going on,
Speaker 3: and you know, if I didn't look the way I look, yeah,
Speaker 3: then this phone call wouldn't be happening. So it happens
Speaker 3: every day.
Speaker 2: I want to ask you a question like that's on
Speaker 2: this topic. You've been in the industry now for many years,
Speaker 2: you know you would have seen a lot of these changes. Now.
Speaker 2: I feel like there is definitely more access for First
Speaker 2: Nations artists. There's you know, things that have been put
Speaker 2: in place to create a bit of a safer industry.
Speaker 2: What was it like when you first started compared to
Speaker 2: what you see today and what are some of the
Speaker 2: sort of challenges you faced.
Speaker 3: Well, I can only speak about it from from my
Speaker 3: standpoint and the challenges I faced when I was starting
Speaker 3: in the same challenges I faced.
Speaker 1: Okay, so not a lot has changed, except.
Speaker 3: Maybe I think I think a lot has changed. But
Speaker 3: I think my one of my biggest struggles with the
Speaker 3: industry or with any situation is that I have always
Speaker 3: strived and I refuse to have my me being First
Speaker 3: Nations as any kind of qualifier or disqualifier, because they're
Speaker 3: both the same.
Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
Speaker 3: If you're if you're if this is a qualifier you know,
Speaker 3: I don't think I'm I'm one of the best First
Speaker 3: Nation singers. I think I don't think I'm one of
Speaker 3: the best Australian singers. I think I'm one of the
Speaker 3: best singers. You know, I don't want any qualifier in
Speaker 3: front of me that has anything else to do with
Speaker 3: my artistry.
Speaker 2: Is that because it boxes you in or boxes you out.
Speaker 3: Boxes you in. If something can box you in, then
Speaker 3: it can box you out. You know, there's a difference.
Speaker 3: You know, you look at Yrvin, it's a celebration. There's
Speaker 3: a difference between that and having a black a black
Speaker 3: fellow stage at a festival. There's a difference between celebration
Speaker 3: and segregation. And I've always struggled with that. I played
Speaker 3: a festival when I was starting out and they put
Speaker 3: me on the World Music stage, which is fine and
Speaker 3: I was happy to play there, but they put me
Speaker 3: there because I was a blackfellow.
Speaker 2: How often have you been put in that category?
Speaker 3: I'm there now, Yeah, what.
Speaker 2: Is that category? Is that just outdated?
Speaker 3: Like it's completely vapid? Yeah, you know, but like anything
Speaker 3: is anything like that, anything that speaks about culture, well,
Speaker 3: anything that doesn't actually cut to the core of a
Speaker 3: person as an individual.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I feel.
Speaker 3: Is completely vapid. So whether it's and it's not culture
Speaker 3: because culture is important and there's you know, so it's
Speaker 3: not that at all. It's just this, you know. Oh,
Speaker 3: it's the stereotypes and yeah, I mean I fight it
Speaker 3: every day, you know, and so what I what I
Speaker 3: had to do is fight against that and I still
Speaker 3: have to fight against it. But you know, there's it's
Speaker 3: it's laziness on the part of a journalist or a
Speaker 3: society systemic. Yeah, they get to just say what we
Speaker 3: are and tell us what we are. If you're this,
Speaker 3: this is where you are. You know, I'm an extremely complex,
Speaker 3: complicated individual individual. I know where I'm from, Eastern Island,
Speaker 3: and we also have Irish and Afghan on my mother's side.
Speaker 3: My father's Irish scent. My wife is Chinese and Welsh.
Speaker 3: And my kids are awesome and they know where they're
Speaker 3: from too, And she knows. My five year old knows
Speaker 3: her flag when she sees it.
Speaker 1: She doesn't need to like constantly prove herself.
Speaker 3: I'm just trying to I'm just trying to prolong the
Speaker 3: chip that's coming, because you know it's it's coming. You know,
Speaker 3: the chip on the shoulder because this is this is
Speaker 3: where we are, and so I have a responsibility as
Speaker 3: as a parent to prepare her for that. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, I don't want to give her my chip.
Speaker 3: You know. It's hard, but that's like any parent, I mean,
Speaker 3: how do you not just give them all your ship?
Speaker 3: You know what I mean? How do you not do that?
Speaker 3: You know? I'll just say about my upbringing, it was
Speaker 3: difficult at times, but I had a much better childhood
Speaker 3: than my parents. Worked hard to make sure that things
Speaker 3: were better for me than they were for them, And
Speaker 3: I'm doing the same for my kids. And that's my healing, Yeah,
Speaker 3: by making sure that my kids. Yeah yeah, And it's
Speaker 3: not that I wasn't looked after, you know, but just
Speaker 3: you know, I don't purely official level. They've got the
Speaker 3: upright piano in their house.
Speaker 1: They've got everything they need to thrive, and.
Speaker 3: They're good at it. And they're artists already, you know.
Speaker 3: And I'll say that they are, you know, pressure, but
Speaker 3: they are.
Speaker 2: You've spoken about how fatherhood has changed your perspective. How
Speaker 2: has it influenced the art as well? So the music
Speaker 2: the writing that you do.
Speaker 1: Do you like music writing? Do you find it hard?
Speaker 3: I don't find it difficult.
Speaker 2: Do you like music writing?
Speaker 4: I hate it, but you know, I mean I watched
Speaker 4: a few documentaries and some people don't music writing.
Speaker 2: But I think that writing is your world, right writing?
Speaker 3: I love it?
Speaker 1: You love it?
Speaker 3: No, I do love it, and I love it. I
Speaker 3: love it when it's hard, and it should be it
Speaker 3: should be hard. I mean, there are songs that come
Speaker 3: out sometimes the song can take as long to write
Speaker 3: as it does to sing it, and the first time
Speaker 3: you ever sing it, it's written, well, okay. And that's
Speaker 3: this kind of like being available and open to stuff.
Speaker 3: And I put out a song last year that I
Speaker 3: started writing when I was like seventeen, you know, and
Speaker 3: I finished it last year. So the song can take
Speaker 3: two minutes or it can take twenty years. It's all
Speaker 3: just still the same moment, you know. So it's yeah,
Speaker 3: I think if a song is if a song is
Speaker 3: honest to my ear and to my taste, then it
Speaker 3: it will often resonate, you know. I mean I can
Speaker 3: hear a lot of songs and I hear a line
Speaker 3: in there and sometimes I just go shut up, you know. Yeah,
Speaker 3: I mean you can tell that it's just been. You know,
Speaker 3: there's a lot of songs that are written by like
Speaker 3: seventeen people and they're like big songs, and they're big.
Speaker 3: They're big, huge songs, worldwide hits. And you know, I'm
Speaker 3: not saying that they shouldn't resonate none of my business,
Speaker 3: you know, but it's not something that I personally, No,
Speaker 3: not really.
Speaker 4: You know, you've spoken about honesty, because I think we
Speaker 4: pride ourselves on like trying to be our most authentic
Speaker 4: self and like genuine Do you feel the pressure to
Speaker 4: continue to produce things because you have to or do
Speaker 4: you just go at your own pace and take your
Speaker 4: own stride with it.
Speaker 3: I just do my own thing. Yeah, I've felt pressure before,
Speaker 3: just that idea of the you know, having pressure to
Speaker 3: do something or not do something. The only pressure I
Speaker 3: feel is whether I'm just being myself.
Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And even that, I don't feel any pressure because
Speaker 3: I'm you know, exactly just this is it now, and
Speaker 3: I'm in a good place.
Speaker 2: You know.
Speaker 3: Having kids is wonderful. It's it's simple. It's like, if
Speaker 3: it's good for my kids, then I'll do it, and
Speaker 3: if it's not good for them, then I won't do it.
Speaker 3: You know, it's a very simple, simple life. And I'm
Speaker 3: never doing anything that I don't want to do. I
Speaker 3: love that, never do anything I don't want to do,
Speaker 3: and I've never done it, really, And that's not just
Speaker 3: something that's come with you know, runs on the board
Speaker 3: or you know whatever. It's something that I've always done.
Speaker 4: And trust your instincts absolutely, because the fact is is
Speaker 4: that there aren't any rules, and there is no formula,
Speaker 4: and there is the only metric and the only way
Speaker 4: to judge any of this is if you can go
Speaker 4: to sleep at night, if you can live with yourself
Speaker 4: like at night and like make the right choices for yourself.
Speaker 1: I feel like that's the best.
Speaker 4: Like, you know, you can only make the best decisions then,
Speaker 4: like if you're listening to yourself rather than doing what
Speaker 4: other people want.
Speaker 1: I mean, I have it technically, honestly.
Speaker 2: I mean, it takes a bit to get there, for
Speaker 2: me to be to put myself sort.
Speaker 1: Of self reflection.
Speaker 2: I think for so long I try. I think I
Speaker 2: felt like to be successful as a black fellow, maybe
Speaker 2: as a queen man, I had to appeal to the
Speaker 2: people who would hire me, you know, so I sort
Speaker 2: of molded and shaped myself a little bit. And I
Speaker 2: think that as I've become older I'm trying to thirty
Speaker 2: in a couple of months, I feel like there's this
Speaker 2: whole journey of self rediscovery because it's like, I'm not
Speaker 2: really concerned or wanting to appeal to anyone anymore.
Speaker 3: And looking back, do you feel like that that would
Speaker 3: have that that made any difference at the time, or
Speaker 3: in hindsight it just didn't even matter anyway? What do
Speaker 3: you think?
Speaker 2: It probably made people happy, But then when I would
Speaker 2: go home, I would think, I'm not even interested in
Speaker 2: doing that. I'm not even myself in that moment, like
Speaker 2: it's not really aligning with me. And then I would
Speaker 2: be the person who would deal with the sort of
Speaker 2: fallout of it, because it was an internal feeling, you know,
Speaker 2: And I think that I don't know, like over the years,
Speaker 2: I've just come to I don't know, I feel like I
Speaker 2: know myself more and get a little bit deeper within
Speaker 2: sort of understanding like myself, and then that's allowed me
Speaker 2: not to want to appeal.
Speaker 3: And that's the thing with us, is that, you know,
Speaker 3: because it is we talk about the patriarch, and let's
Speaker 3: be clear what that is that's white men. Yeah, truly,
Speaker 3: So then there's only so many places.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, So.
Speaker 3: If you're a black fellow, then you need to compete
Speaker 3: with black fellows. And that it is. I see it.
Speaker 3: I've seen it affect us greatly. I've always tried, I've
Speaker 3: always tried to prop people up, but I've seen it
Speaker 3: and it's difficult. And it's nothing that I that I
Speaker 3: begrudge anyone for, I understand, but there's only so much
Speaker 3: room for there's a quota, and I wouldn't I would
Speaker 3: never speak on what that must be like for a woman,
Speaker 3: you know, of course, but I know as a black man,
Speaker 3: you know, we're not we're not anywhere near the top
Speaker 3: of the pile, you know, and we're just dangerous and
Speaker 3: we're scary and all that stuff. And so there's like
Speaker 3: this competition that we're forced into because this is the
Speaker 3: world and this is the society, and there can only
Speaker 3: be so many and so I always just completely and
Speaker 3: utterly refused to take any part in it whatsoever.
Speaker 2: Well, I think that's a beautiful place to wrap this.
Speaker 2: But we want to say thank you so much for
Speaker 2: coming on our pod, Like we really appreciate that you've
Speaker 2: taking the time to come in and.
Speaker 1: Coming post tour as well.
Speaker 3: It's fine, there's no I don't you know. We take
Speaker 3: it really easy.
Speaker 2: It's really nice, excellent, no hangovers, not for anyone, and
Speaker 2: they're all fine, they're healthy, they can have a dream.
Speaker 2: But there's one of those.
Speaker 3: Boundaries, you know.
Speaker 1: Yes, I love that.
Speaker 3: Good. It's a nice thing.
Speaker 1: As an artist, you should really, you know, have those boundaries. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I love that. Thanks, thank you so much, thank you,
Speaker 1: sure you're honestly, that was the best chart. But that's
Speaker 1: all we have time for today.
Speaker 2: If you love what he leave us a rating or
Speaker 2: a little review, and if you want us to cover
Speaker 2: anything on the pod that makes you, reach out by
Speaker 2: our socials.
Speaker 4: My handle is at Brooked Up one and Maddie's handle
Speaker 4: is at It's Maddie Mills.
Speaker 1: But we'll see you guys next week.