WEBVTT - What's next for Venezuela?

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<v Speaker 1>So I was in Europe at the time, and we

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<v Speaker 1>got messages from my uncle who told us they heard

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<v Speaker 1>the windows rattle, and they thought, my goodness, it's an earthquake.

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<v Speaker 1>And then came the boom.

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<v Speaker 2>At least seven explosions have been heard in the capital Caracas,

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<v Speaker 2>accompanied by a number of low flying aircraft.

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<v Speaker 1>At first they wondered, is this the military turning on

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<v Speaker 1>the regime, because that's a scenario that many Venezuelans have

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<v Speaker 1>wondered whether it might happen. But then came the sound

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<v Speaker 1>of so many other explosions across the city, and then

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<v Speaker 1>they realized that there was a massive, massive operation going on.

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<v Speaker 3>This is Sandra, she's a Venezuelan journalist based abroad. We're

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<v Speaker 3>not telling you her full name because her family back

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<v Speaker 3>home are worried about revenge attacks.

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<v Speaker 1>And then very quickly we got the post from Donald

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<v Speaker 1>Trump on truth Social saying that Maduro had been captured.

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<v Speaker 2>The former leader of Venezuela, Nicolas Madudo in handcuffs. You

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<v Speaker 2>can see those blacked out sunglasses over his eyes. He

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<v Speaker 2>is wearing the earmuffs as well. He looks to be

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<v Speaker 2>in a tracksuit.

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<v Speaker 1>It all happened so fast, No one could really grasp

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<v Speaker 1>what was going on. But seeing Maduro wearing those headphones

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<v Speaker 1>and that imask in that Nike tracksuit was so surreal.

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<v Speaker 1>No one ever imagined that moment would come.

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<v Speaker 4>This was one of the most stunning, effective and powerful

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<v Speaker 4>displays of American military might and competence in American history.

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<v Speaker 3>Now, with Nicholas Maduro facing charges of Naco terrorism and

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<v Speaker 3>drug trafficking in New York, Venezuela's future is uncertain.

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<v Speaker 5>So we are going to run the country until such.

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<v Speaker 4>Time as we can do a safe, proper and judicious transition.

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<v Speaker 3>The big questions who will really run the country and

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<v Speaker 3>its oil industry, and what does Trump's intervention there mean

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<v Speaker 3>for the rest of the world. I'm Nicole Johnston and

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<v Speaker 3>you're listening to seven AM today Maduro's legacy and what

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<v Speaker 3>comes next for Venezuela. It's Tuesday, January thirteenth. Sandra, you

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<v Speaker 3>have friends and family in the capital, Caracas. What are

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<v Speaker 3>they telling you about what's happening on the ground there.

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<v Speaker 1>Well, I just got off the phone with a relative

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<v Speaker 1>of mine who lives in Karrakaz, and she says things

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<v Speaker 1>are bizarrely normal. People are going to work, there's no

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<v Speaker 1>panic buying. Remember, the economy in Venezuela is in shambles

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<v Speaker 1>and prices are really high for all sorts of things,

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<v Speaker 1>so people can't actually afford to panic buy, and they

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<v Speaker 1>can't afford not to work, So that's also contributing to

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<v Speaker 1>some sense of normality. Having said that, there is also

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<v Speaker 1>some tension in Gatacas, especially in the western part of

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<v Speaker 1>the city and in the center, where we've seen videos

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<v Speaker 1>and heard reports of what are called colictivos roaming the streets.

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<v Speaker 5>Armed militias on motorcycles have taken over the streets, hunting

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<v Speaker 5>down Venezuela's who support their Trump administration's operation.

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<v Speaker 1>So these are sort of paramilitary groups who are seen

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<v Speaker 1>as a kind of informal enforcement arm that work in

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<v Speaker 1>parallel with the Venezuelan state. They used to be sort

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<v Speaker 1>of grassroots community movements, then they were given weapons and

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<v Speaker 1>they are used in many cases to intimidate and suppress

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<v Speaker 1>any kind of descent in the country. So these colicdivos

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<v Speaker 1>are setting up checkpoints in various parts of the city

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<v Speaker 1>and they're checking cars, and we've also heard reports that

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<v Speaker 1>they're checking people's phones. So everyone I know who is

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<v Speaker 1>critical of the government or is just trying to be

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<v Speaker 1>extra careful. Are deleting their WhatsApp messages before they walk

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<v Speaker 1>out of the door, They're deleting their Instagram messages, They're

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<v Speaker 1>even deleting search results on their browser pages because of

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<v Speaker 1>any articles that might come up there as seen as

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<v Speaker 1>critical of the government. So everyone is being extremely careful. Again,

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<v Speaker 1>this is only really relevant to people who are critical

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<v Speaker 1>of the government. But judging by the results of the

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<v Speaker 1>last elections in twenty twenty four, it's a lot of people.

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<v Speaker 3>Sandra, As you say it's not safe for people to

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<v Speaker 3>speak out against the government in Venezuela, but can you

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<v Speaker 3>take me back to a time before that was the case,

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<v Speaker 3>Because there were decades of democracy in Venezuela before Hugo

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<v Speaker 3>Chavez took over in nineteen ninety nine. How has the

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<v Speaker 3>country been reshaped to become the repressive state that we

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<v Speaker 3>see today.

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<v Speaker 1>So Venezuela didn't flip into a de tatorship overnight. Chavez

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<v Speaker 1>did come in to power through elections in nineteen ninety nine. Okay,

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<v Speaker 1>but then I suppose, as critics would say, that he

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<v Speaker 1>rewrote the rules of the game. So he did things

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<v Speaker 1>like change the constitution, he removed presidential term limits. He

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<v Speaker 1>packed the courts with judges that were loyal to him

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<v Speaker 1>and his political movement and revolution. And he did the

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<v Speaker 1>same thing with the electoral authority, this CNE. And the

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<v Speaker 1>way he was able to do that as well was

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<v Speaker 1>through oil money. Oil money helped him build these patronage networks.

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<v Speaker 1>He bought a lot of political loyalty. He got rid

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<v Speaker 1>of free and independent media. So by the time Chavez

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<v Speaker 1>died and his successor Maduro took over, those democratic guardrails

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<v Speaker 1>were already gone.

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<v Speaker 6>The Oisinco and Marsa i Fadas, the Commandante president.

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<v Speaker 3>The vice president Maduro has announced this news on state

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<v Speaker 3>television that Ugu Chavez has in fact died.

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<v Speaker 5>Of course, we know that he has been.

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<v Speaker 1>Ill, and Maduro just hardened the system. He was accused

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<v Speaker 1>of manipulating subsequent elections. I think a major turning point

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<v Speaker 1>that you'd be interested in hear in some more context

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<v Speaker 1>about is the elections that happened in July of twenty.

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<v Speaker 6>Twenty Fourtemos El Titres put.

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<v Speaker 1>The political opposition in Venezuela, which is actually led by

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<v Speaker 1>last year's Nobel Peace Prize winner Marie Corina Machado, signed up.

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<v Speaker 1>Thousands of volunteers secretly signed them all up to essentially

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<v Speaker 1>collect bits of paper that are printed from voting machines

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<v Speaker 1>at each polling station, and those bits of paper show

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<v Speaker 1>how many votes each candidate got from each polling station.

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<v Speaker 1>Those bits of paper were then uploaded to a central

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<v Speaker 1>website that anyone could then verify, and according to their account,

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<v Speaker 1>they said that the opposition candidate ed Mundo Gonzalez won

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<v Speaker 1>by a.

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<v Speaker 6>Landslide pekalsient Electo is Mundo Gonzala.

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<v Speaker 1>So then the electoral Council, which is run by a

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<v Speaker 1>Madudo loyalists, as I mentioned, also had their own copies

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<v Speaker 1>of those tally sheets, but never made them publicly available.

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<v Speaker 1>They refused to hand over their copies. So when Madudo

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<v Speaker 1>claimed victory days after the election, thousands of people, many

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<v Speaker 1>actually from some of the poorest neighborhoods of Caracas, they

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<v Speaker 1>took to the streets and that's when the repression really

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<v Speaker 1>started to get pretty bad.

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<v Speaker 3>Protests erupted across Venezuela Monday, shortly after sitting President Nicholas

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<v Speaker 3>Maduro was declared winner in a disputed election.

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<v Speaker 5>Thousands of people have been jailed since.

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<v Speaker 1>Journalists, activists, politicians, even ordinary Venezuelans. One young woman was

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<v Speaker 1>arrested and jailed for posting a TikTok that criticized the government.

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<v Speaker 1>One of the measures under Maduo that got a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of criticism from human rights groups was the so called

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<v Speaker 1>Law against Hate that was introduced in twenty seventeen, and

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<v Speaker 1>that was a very effective tool in cracking down on

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<v Speaker 1>dissent and was used to jail a lot of opposition politicians,

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<v Speaker 1>activists and journalists. So since then we've had thousands of

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<v Speaker 1>people in Venezuela and jails. And so when people talk

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<v Speaker 1>about the security apparatus ramping things up since Madudo's removal,

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<v Speaker 1>we already had that backdrop.

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<v Speaker 3>Before you mentioned Venezuela's Nobel Prize winning opposition leader Maria

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<v Speaker 3>Coriina Machado. Where is she in all of this, because

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<v Speaker 3>she seems to be on the alta with Trump now

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<v Speaker 3>and he's trying to get back into his good books.

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<v Speaker 5>That's right.

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<v Speaker 1>She keeps getting asked by journalists if she stands by

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<v Speaker 1>what she said when she received the Nobel Peace Prize

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<v Speaker 1>that she dedicated it to the Venezuelan people but also

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<v Speaker 1>to Trump, and she plans to give it to him.

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<v Speaker 1>She's still seen as the kind of I would describe

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<v Speaker 1>it as a moral face of the opposition. She's got

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<v Speaker 1>a lot of huge international credibility, but she isn't pulling

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<v Speaker 1>the strings right now. She's not the one calling the shots,

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<v Speaker 1>and she wasn't chosen by the Trump administration to be

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<v Speaker 1>inserted as the replacement.

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<v Speaker 5>Of Nicolas Maduro.

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<v Speaker 1>I think it's an impossible exercise to guess what Trump

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<v Speaker 1>might do next.

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<v Speaker 5>But he's got a lot of leverage.

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<v Speaker 1>Militarily, economically, diplomatically, and he's openly talking like Venezuela is

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<v Speaker 1>under some kind of American supervision. So the US isn't

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<v Speaker 1>literally governing. But nothing is happening right now as we

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<v Speaker 1>understand it without Washington say so, they have actually talked

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<v Speaker 1>about a long term plan for some kind of transition toocracy,

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<v Speaker 1>but again, who knows if that'll actually happen and if

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<v Speaker 1>they'll follow through with it.

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<v Speaker 3>Coming up, who will Trump target next? Sandras? Since Maduro

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<v Speaker 3>was captured, Trump has been making these threats towards other

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<v Speaker 3>Latin American countries. Where does that leave places like Colombia, Cuba,

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<v Speaker 3>and Mexico.

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<v Speaker 1>So Colombia has been in Trump's sites for a while now,

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<v Speaker 1>and Columbia's president has pushed very hard against the US's

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<v Speaker 1>comments about intervening in Colombian removing the so called leftist

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<v Speaker 1>socialist president there, so the relationship there is quite tense.

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<v Speaker 1>Cuba seems to be in some trouble as well, because

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<v Speaker 1>Trump's openly talking about cutting off Venezuelan oil and money,

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<v Speaker 1>which Cuba has heavily depended on for so many years.

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<v Speaker 1>Someone on x actually recently posted saying that Marco Rubio,

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<v Speaker 1>of the US Secretary of State should be president of Cuba.

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<v Speaker 1>Trump then shared that post, adding sounds good to me.

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<v Speaker 1>With Mexico, Trump has threatened land strikes.

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<v Speaker 4>We are going to start now hitting that land. With

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<v Speaker 4>regard to the cartels. The cartels are running Mexico. It's

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<v Speaker 4>very sad.

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<v Speaker 5>Now.

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<v Speaker 1>There is, of course, no evidence that these are real

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<v Speaker 1>plans or that this is anything close to an official

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<v Speaker 1>US policy. But this is Trump's style, right. He likes

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<v Speaker 1>to jab and that's what he's doing in the region.

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<v Speaker 3>So, Sandra, I can only imagine how hard it must

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<v Speaker 3>be watching all of this happen to your country, your family,

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<v Speaker 3>and your friends at home, while you're on the other

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<v Speaker 3>side of the world, how are you coping.

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<v Speaker 1>It's tough as a Venezuelan and as a journalist to

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<v Speaker 1>tell the world what's happening without putting my family and

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<v Speaker 1>my friends in danger. I was actually asked directly by

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<v Speaker 1>one of my relatives to stop posting on Instagram for

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<v Speaker 1>the time being, because you know, she told me that

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<v Speaker 1>we share a family name, and you know, I'm scared.

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<v Speaker 1>So of course, as a journalist, you feel really hamstrung

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<v Speaker 1>because you want to weigh in on the story and

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<v Speaker 1>you want to be able to tell the story in

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<v Speaker 1>a really balanced way and not hold back. It's also

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<v Speaker 1>really frustrating because and this is something that a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of Venezuelan's will tell you, and I'm seeing a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of this commentary on social media that many feel really

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<v Speaker 1>frustrated with the kind of discussion happening around Venezuela and

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<v Speaker 1>a little hurt by some of the commentary as well,

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<v Speaker 1>because Venezuela has been run by this very repressive regime

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<v Speaker 1>for so many years and it very rarely makes headlines.

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<v Speaker 1>In their words, no one seems to care about Venezuela

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<v Speaker 1>and human rights in the country and the political prisoners

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<v Speaker 1>in the country, And suddenly everyone has an opinion. I

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<v Speaker 1>think many people feel that the heavy criticism of Trump's

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<v Speaker 1>actions in Venezuela suggests that Maduro is an innocent victim here.

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<v Speaker 1>Now we know it's not a binary situation, but this

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<v Speaker 1>is some of the commentary I'm hearing from a lot

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<v Speaker 1>of Venezuelans, and they're using this moment to scream out

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<v Speaker 1>to the world. I want you to understand what we've

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<v Speaker 1>been living through for over two decades now, and why

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<v Speaker 1>while I don't support Trump as a president of the

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<v Speaker 1>US or the kind of leader that he is, why

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<v Speaker 1>even for a moment, I want to celebrate the removal

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<v Speaker 1>of Madudu, who I blame for all of this hardship

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<v Speaker 1>and all of this violence in the country. Of course,

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<v Speaker 1>it's very complicated because it isn't just joy or relief.

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<v Speaker 1>There is so much uncertainty about what comes next, and

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<v Speaker 1>so I think there is a real unease with every

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<v Speaker 1>Venezuelan about whether they can hold up onto hope, or

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<v Speaker 1>whether they should be really scared, or how they even

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<v Speaker 1>manage feeling that mix of emotions on a day to

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<v Speaker 1>day basis.

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<v Speaker 3>Sandra, thank you so much for talking to us today.

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<v Speaker 5>It was a pleasure to talk to you, Nicole, Thanks

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<v Speaker 5>for having me.

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<v Speaker 3>Also in the news, a new ozepic like weight loss

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<v Speaker 3>drug is set to be added to the Pharmaceutical Benefit

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<v Speaker 3>Scheme for people with severe obesity and cardiovascular disease. Last year,

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<v Speaker 3>the PBS Advisory Committee recommended listing the drug Wigovi for

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<v Speaker 3>select patients. The drug works by suppressing the user's appetite.

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<v Speaker 3>Federal Health Minister Mark Butler said that four hundred thousand

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<v Speaker 3>Australians are currently paying market price for drugs like this,

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<v Speaker 3>which amounts to as much as five thousand dollars a year,

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<v Speaker 3>and Federal Cabinet Minister Madeline King has backed the controversial

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<v Speaker 3>decision to cancel Palestinian Australian writer and academic Runder Abdulphutter

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<v Speaker 3>from the Adelaide Writers' Festival. King is the first federal

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<v Speaker 3>minister to publicly weigh in. The decision to act Abdulphutter

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<v Speaker 3>was made by the board of the Adelaide Festival, not

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<v Speaker 3>the organizers. Following widespread outcry to the decision and amass

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<v Speaker 3>boycott of the event by writers, the chair and several

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<v Speaker 3>other board members have resigned. I'm Nicole Johnston. This is

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<v Speaker 3>seven a m. See you tomorrow,