WEBVTT - Robodebt Revelations, Royal Commission Chaos and the New Nats

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<v Speaker 1>I'm Daniel James and you're listening to seven AM in Canberra.

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<v Speaker 1>Accountability is often promised in moments of crisis. Much harder

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<v Speaker 1>is what comes after. Matt Canavan has taken over the

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<v Speaker 1>national sharpening his party's ability to confront one nation. Former

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<v Speaker 1>ASIO boss Dennis Richardson has walked away from the government's

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<v Speaker 1>Anti Semitism Royal Commission, raising fresh questions about a process

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<v Speaker 1>already under pressure, and years after robodet devastated thousands of lives,

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<v Speaker 1>a final reporters landed with a reminder of just how

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<v Speaker 1>hard real accountability can be defined. Today, Press Gallery journalist

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<v Speaker 1>Karen Middleton and what Canavan's rise means for the Coalition,

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<v Speaker 1>while Richardson's resignation matters to Anthony Albanesi and what the

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<v Speaker 1>robodebt findings tell us about whether the system is capable

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<v Speaker 1>of holding anyone to account. It's Saturday, March fourteen, Karen.

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<v Speaker 1>This week we saw yet another leadership change from the Coalition,

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<v Speaker 1>which had the echoes of the great political philosopher melman

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<v Speaker 1>Ninger's brief brush with politics in two thousand and one.

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<v Speaker 2>I was just a person out there making sure that

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<v Speaker 2>I was I'm buggered I'm sorry, that's right.

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<v Speaker 1>I like to resign Nationals leader David Little Proud declaring

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<v Speaker 1>this week.

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<v Speaker 3>I'm buggaed I'll have enough to lead this great party

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<v Speaker 3>would be the wrong thing for me to do.

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<v Speaker 1>I love it. Matt Canavan, the new leader, is a brasher,

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<v Speaker 1>more right wing character than a Little Proud. So will

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<v Speaker 1>we see a change in direction under his leadership.

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<v Speaker 4>I don't know that we're going to see a total

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<v Speaker 4>change in direction. I think we'll certainly see a change

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<v Speaker 4>in the way the National's positions are communicated, probably less

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<v Speaker 4>chaotic approach, I think. I mean, we saw under David

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<v Speaker 4>Little Proud the coalition split twice and that was really

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<v Speaker 4>his instigation. So he sort of was a tantrum thrower.

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<v Speaker 4>And Matt Canavan is not that he's an economist. He's

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<v Speaker 4>a fact based arguer, so he's a lot more what

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<v Speaker 4>you see is what you get, and I think you

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<v Speaker 4>will get from Matt Canavan a pretty sort of straight shooter,

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<v Speaker 4>albeit somebody who's definitely on the right and has firm ideas.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeah, what are some of his ideas? What are some

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<v Speaker 1>of the things that he's stand for during his time

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<v Speaker 1>as a parliamentarian.

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<v Speaker 4>He's very opposed to the target for net zero greenhouse

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<v Speaker 4>gas missions, which the Coalition has already dumped.

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<v Speaker 5>Apparently we're not getting a good deal from net zero.

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<v Speaker 5>It's been a bit of a scam where bankers and

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<v Speaker 5>big business makes money and small business.

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<v Speaker 4>He's long talked about that, but he sees that his

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<v Speaker 4>focus is on cheaper energy.

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<v Speaker 5>Power prices have gone up forty percent since we signed

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<v Speaker 5>up to net zero. Both electricity and gas prices have

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<v Speaker 5>gone up by that much. It's not a good deal

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<v Speaker 5>for us, right, So something's got it.

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<v Speaker 2>He says.

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<v Speaker 4>He's agnostic about the kinds of energy. He's very pro

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<v Speaker 4>fossil fuels.

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<v Speaker 5>We need more astrainaned babies. We need more Australian humor,

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<v Speaker 5>more Australian jokes. We need more Australian barbecues, sometimes often

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<v Speaker 5>fueled by fossil fuels.

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<v Speaker 4>He's big on the family unit. He's got five kids

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<v Speaker 4>and a wife who raised the kids as a stay

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<v Speaker 4>at home mum, so he's big on things like income splitting,

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<v Speaker 4>parents being able to split their income if one parent

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<v Speaker 4>stays at home and doesn't do paid work, so that

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<v Speaker 4>they pay tax across two people rather than the primary

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<v Speaker 4>bread When they're being taxed. He's very anti abortion and

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<v Speaker 4>he's supported measures to try and restrict access to abortion

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<v Speaker 4>under particular circumstances. He's a practicing Christian and he talks

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<v Speaker 4>about that, but he's also a person who argues on FATS.

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<v Speaker 1>He's a guy. He's also acted as a bit of

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<v Speaker 1>an attack dog and a provocateur for the NATS. What

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<v Speaker 1>will his approach be to One Nation as a threat

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<v Speaker 1>and do you think he's better or worse place to

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<v Speaker 1>handle it than little Proud?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, this is going to be fascinating now that we

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<v Speaker 4>have Barnaby Joyce in One Nation. It's a head to

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<v Speaker 4>head contest not only between Matt Canavan and Pauline Hanson

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<v Speaker 4>the leader of One Nation. And it's also interesting that

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<v Speaker 4>the NATS will now be led from the Senate, which

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<v Speaker 4>is highly unusual, and that's where paul and Hanson also is.

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<v Speaker 4>But we've got the contest between Matt Canavan and Barnaby Joyce. Now,

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<v Speaker 4>Matt Canavan was a protege of Barnaby Joyce. His first

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<v Speaker 4>job in politics when he left the Productivity Commission where

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<v Speaker 4>he was a longtime economist, was working for Barnaby Joyce.

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<v Speaker 4>And you know they're good mates and they share a

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<v Speaker 4>lot of things in common, and Barnaby Joyce says that,

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<v Speaker 4>but I think there'll be some fascinating internal discussions because

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<v Speaker 4>Matt Canavan has some very firm ideas and while he

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<v Speaker 4>doesn't throw tantrums like David Little Proud, he will assert

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<v Speaker 4>himself and he will probably communicate more clearly and prosecute

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<v Speaker 4>the case against One Nation. And he's very strong against

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<v Speaker 4>some of the things that One Nation has advert and

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<v Speaker 4>particularly that Pauline Hanson has advocated issues around race. He's

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<v Speaker 4>very opposed to the way she comments on issues around race,

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<v Speaker 4>and particularly recently her comments on Muslims suggesting there were

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<v Speaker 4>no good Muslims. He has shredded that in public.

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<v Speaker 5>Totally un Australian for someone to say that eight hundred

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<v Speaker 5>thousand Australians, of those eight hundred thousand Astraians for a Muslim,

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<v Speaker 5>there's no good people among them. That's what Pauline said.

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<v Speaker 5>Now clearly I think she went too far, and now

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<v Speaker 5>she won't apologize because she doesn't do that. She never

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<v Speaker 5>admits that.

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<v Speaker 4>He's got the courage to say no, no, that's wrong.

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<v Speaker 4>We're one country. We don't want to be divided. There

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<v Speaker 4>are good people in Australia of all faiths and we respect.

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<v Speaker 1>Them when it comes to Barnaby Joyce. He even got

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<v Speaker 1>to mention in Canavan's first speech.

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<v Speaker 5>We tucked ourselves in for the night and then I

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<v Speaker 5>remember that I hadn't called my wife, so I got

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<v Speaker 5>out my phone and texted my wife, Hi babe, love you,

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<v Speaker 5>Missy Lotts. At least I thought that text went to

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<v Speaker 5>my wife instead. I had been to Varnaby so much

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<v Speaker 5>it went to him by mistake.

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<v Speaker 1>So they are pretty tight. Is that going to be

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<v Speaker 1>an advantage for Canavan knowing the enemy of sorts?

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<v Speaker 4>I think that's a very interesting point. And potentially, yes,

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<v Speaker 4>he knows Barnaby Joyce's vulnerabilities, he knows how he thinks,

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<v Speaker 4>and he knows where he will be agreeing with Pauline

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<v Speaker 4>Hanson and where he will not. Now, for example, he

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<v Speaker 4>knows that Barnaby Joyce was uncomfortable with what Pauline Hanson

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<v Speaker 4>said about Muslims. Barnaby Joyce has said that basically, and

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<v Speaker 4>Matt Canavan has pointed to that. So he won't be

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<v Speaker 4>afraid to try and point out divisions within the One

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<v Speaker 4>Nation team because that will be a way of the

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<v Speaker 4>Nationals seeking to pull back some of those votes that

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<v Speaker 4>the Polsters tell us have gone to one nation. So

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<v Speaker 4>I don't think you'll be shy about trying to split

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<v Speaker 4>them and show that they are not a party of government.

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<v Speaker 1>Yeh, Popcorne, I reckon, Yes, coming up the overpaid foremost

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<v Speaker 1>by chief he walked away from five and a half

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<v Speaker 1>grand a day Karen. Former AJA by Stennis Richardson has

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<v Speaker 1>resigned from his job as a Special Advisor to the

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<v Speaker 1>Royal Commission on Anti Semitism and Social Cohesion, saying he

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<v Speaker 1>believed he was surplus to requirements. What were the reasons

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<v Speaker 1>he gave for stepping away.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, he's basically said he's become well. I think the

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<v Speaker 4>phrase us was a grossly overpaid researcher.

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<v Speaker 2>Very very simply. I felt I was the fifth wheel.

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<v Speaker 2>It's a very legally.

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<v Speaker 4>If we step back, remember how this all came about.

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<v Speaker 4>After the terrorist attack on Bonde Beach on December fourteenth,

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<v Speaker 4>the Prime Minister announced an urgent review of the role

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<v Speaker 4>of intelligence agencies and law enforcement. The Prime Minister appointed

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<v Speaker 4>Dennis Richardson to run that. Now he's a former head

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<v Speaker 4>of AZO, but the government came under pressure to hold

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<v Speaker 4>a Royal Commission and folded those two inquiries together, but

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<v Speaker 4>they weren't a very good fit. The model of the

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<v Speaker 4>Royal Commission just hasn't been able to accommodate the kind

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<v Speaker 4>of inquiry that Dennis Richardson was doing. It's going to

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<v Speaker 4>take longer. There are now all sorts of rules around

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<v Speaker 4>accessing documents, the agencies of lawyer up. It's a different

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<v Speaker 4>kind of investigation. He makes the point and he wants

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<v Speaker 4>to emphasize this that it will still get a result,

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<v Speaker 4>but it's going to take longer.

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<v Speaker 2>It will still be a valuable document. The Royal Commission

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<v Speaker 2>will go on to have hearings and I'm sure the

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<v Speaker 2>Royal Commission will will will at the end of the

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<v Speaker 2>end of the day do a highly professional job.

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<v Speaker 4>And so I think we can expect that the interim

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<v Speaker 4>report that the Royal Commission hands down at the end

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<v Speaker 4>of April that was meant to be when Denis Richardson's

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<v Speaker 4>report was coming, won't have as much detail, won't be

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<v Speaker 4>as sharp, and won't have as many recommendations as it

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<v Speaker 4>might have done if it was the Dennis Richardson version.

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<v Speaker 1>So does it seem like it was a mistake to

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<v Speaker 1>combine these two investigations, the Security Investigation and the Royal Commission.

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<v Speaker 1>Does it seem like there was an ad hoc approach

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<v Speaker 1>that just hasn't paid off.

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<v Speaker 4>I think it wasn't well thought through. I think the

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<v Speaker 4>Prime Minister got forced into that by the political pressure

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<v Speaker 4>and the public pressure he was under. But Dennis Richardson

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<v Speaker 4>has made the point that they're really in retrospect, needed

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<v Speaker 4>to be more detailed conversations about how the two processes

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<v Speaker 4>could work better together.

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<v Speaker 2>So the interim report that will now be done by

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<v Speaker 2>the Royal Commission will be a very different document to

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<v Speaker 2>the one that I would have done when I was

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<v Speaker 2>doing the review prior to the Royal Commission being announced.

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<v Speaker 4>In the end, I think what we were getting was

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<v Speaker 4>he risked having reports come out with his name attached

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<v Speaker 4>to them in which she hadn't really had a lot

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<v Speaker 4>of involvement. So he's making a slightly complicated argument trying

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<v Speaker 4>to say it's not that he doesn't have confidence in

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<v Speaker 4>what they will find. It's just that he's not sure

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<v Speaker 4>how much role he would have, and he can't be

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<v Speaker 4>certain about things, and he didn't want to be involved

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<v Speaker 4>in something where he had his name on it, but

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<v Speaker 4>he may not necessarily have been deeply involved in the drafting.

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<v Speaker 1>So what does this now mean for the Royal Commission

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<v Speaker 1>and for Alberanesi? Given the whole process has been fraught

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<v Speaker 1>from the get go and that Albanesi tied himself to

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<v Speaker 1>the expertise from the outset. Now that he's gone, what

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<v Speaker 1>does that mean for the Royal Commission.

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<v Speaker 4>Well, these are good questions and certainly we've heard from

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<v Speaker 4>the Jewish community in the last couple of days that

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<v Speaker 4>they were blindsided by this and that they were concerned

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<v Speaker 4>that it undermines the credibility of the Royal Commission. And

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<v Speaker 4>the opposition also has pointed to those comments from Albanesi

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<v Speaker 4>originally suggesting that Dennis richards Woman was a crucial person,

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<v Speaker 4>that he was integral, that he was the person that

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<v Speaker 4>the best placed person to do this inquiry, and suddenly

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<v Speaker 4>now he's not there. So that poses a sort of

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<v Speaker 4>a political complication for the Prime Minister and it does

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<v Speaker 4>look all a little bit messy.

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<v Speaker 3>We know the Prime Minister didn't want this Royal Commission

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<v Speaker 3>in the first place, but now that he's finally been

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<v Speaker 3>dragged kicking and screaming to calling it. It has to

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<v Speaker 3>make sure it's a success, and I have grave concerns

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<v Speaker 3>that it will not be a success if Dennet Richidon

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<v Speaker 3>is not involved.

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<v Speaker 4>There are people in the government sort of saying privately, well,

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<v Speaker 4>you know, we told you we wanted a Richardson inquiry.

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<v Speaker 4>You all wanted a royal commission. This is what we've

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<v Speaker 4>got now. I think, sure, that's one argument, but in

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<v Speaker 4>the end, the Prime Minister did decide to have a

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<v Speaker 4>royal commission. So it's on the government to have made

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<v Speaker 4>sure that those two structures that they put together could

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<v Speaker 4>work together, and that is something that they're going to

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<v Speaker 4>have to answer for. We've seen plenty of royal commissions,

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<v Speaker 4>some of which have been accused of being political. This

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<v Speaker 4>one is not. So I think in the end people

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<v Speaker 4>will get behind it, but the opposition in the short

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<v Speaker 4>term is going to put pressure on the government and

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<v Speaker 4>raise those concerns about whether it's being undermined, and so

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<v Speaker 4>we'll have to see how that debate plays out in

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<v Speaker 4>short term.

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<v Speaker 1>I think finally, Karen, this week we also saw the

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<v Speaker 1>release of the Robo Debt Report, three years after initial findings.

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<v Speaker 1>Former Prime Minister Scott Morrison was cleared, but two public

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<v Speaker 1>servants were found to have engaged in serious corrupt conduct.

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<v Speaker 1>Why did this take so long and what's the reaction being?

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<v Speaker 4>Well, remember the Royal Commission made findings against a number

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<v Speaker 4>of people and made recommendations that they be referred to

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<v Speaker 4>the National Anti Corruption Commission, and there was a huge

0:12:34.720 --> 0:12:38.400
<v Speaker 4>controversy a year or so ago when the Royal Commission

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<v Speaker 4>came out and decided it would take no further action

0:12:41.400 --> 0:12:44.079
<v Speaker 4>on any of it. The decision drew more than one

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<v Speaker 4>thy two hundred complaints, with some.

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<v Speaker 3>Consider Commissioner Briton should ask himself whether him remaining in

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<v Speaker 3>that position is good for the National Anti Corruption.

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<v Speaker 4>People said, well, hang on a minute, you know, where's

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<v Speaker 4>the transparency and accountability? There was not a sense, i

0:12:59.080 --> 0:13:02.920
<v Speaker 4>think in the public demain that there was appropriate accountability,

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<v Speaker 4>that the process had really been gone through as much

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<v Speaker 4>as it should have been. Now, what we've got this

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<v Speaker 4>week after that report came out was that the government

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<v Speaker 4>then published tabled in Parliament the sealed chapter that the

0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:19.760
<v Speaker 4>Royal Commissioner had published that detailed all of the referrals

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<v Speaker 4>that she had made. So we got a little bit

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<v Speaker 4>more background information about what the Royal Commission thought. But

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<v Speaker 4>this whole process gives rise to questions about what the

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<v Speaker 4>point of the National Anti Corruption Commission the knack really is.

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<v Speaker 4>Now it's important to say that police looked at one

0:13:36.360 --> 0:13:39.000
<v Speaker 4>of those public servants and they found there wasn't enough

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<v Speaker 4>evidence to go forward with the prosecution, and that's ultimately

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<v Speaker 4>what the NAC has found as well. So there's the

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<v Speaker 4>general public reaction to this, and then there's the reaction

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<v Speaker 4>of the families of people who were most personally affected.

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<v Speaker 4>We saw people who took their own lives as a

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<v Speaker 4>result of that robodebt process, which was atrocious, and those

0:13:57.800 --> 0:14:02.600
<v Speaker 4>families I'm sure will be feeling deeply sad that there

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<v Speaker 4>isn't more that comes of this.

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<v Speaker 1>In the end. Karen, thank you so much for your time.

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<v Speaker 4>Thanks Daniel.

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<v Speaker 1>Seven Am is a daily show from Solstice Media. It's

0:14:24.800 --> 0:14:29.880
<v Speaker 1>made by Atticus Bastow, Aria Richards, Chris Dangate, Crystal Calla,

0:14:30.440 --> 0:14:37.040
<v Speaker 1>Nicole Johnstone, Travis Evans, Zoltenfecho and me Daniel James. Our

0:14:37.120 --> 0:14:39.400
<v Speaker 1>theme music is by Ned Beckley and Josh Hogan of

0:14:39.440 --> 0:14:43.600
<v Speaker 1>Van Balote Bordio. Thanks for listening to seven Am. Please

0:14:43.600 --> 0:14:45.160
<v Speaker 1>have yourself a great weekend,