1 00:00:00,320 --> 00:00:03,440 Speaker 1: This episode of Headgame was recorded on gadigal Land. 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:08,800 Speaker 2: It's October eleventh, twenty twenty three. Chang Lai has just 3 00:00:08,880 --> 00:00:13,440 Speaker 2: touched down in Melbourne. She spent the last one one 4 00:00:13,520 --> 00:00:17,439 Speaker 2: hundred and fifty five days in detention in China, once 5 00:00:17,520 --> 00:00:21,240 Speaker 2: the face of China's state run English news channel. Authorities 6 00:00:21,280 --> 00:00:25,400 Speaker 2: accused the journalist of espionage. She spent the better part 7 00:00:25,440 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 2: of six months in isolation, ten months without any legal representation, 8 00:00:30,040 --> 00:00:33,760 Speaker 2: then cohurst into accepting a five year prison sentence. 9 00:00:34,800 --> 00:00:35,519 Speaker 1: Three years of. 10 00:00:35,479 --> 00:00:40,320 Speaker 2: Lobbying by the Australian government finally secured her release. Earlier today, 11 00:00:40,600 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 2: I was able to have a conversation with Chang Lai, 12 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:47,560 Speaker 2: who has arrived safely here in Melbourne. And while she's 13 00:00:47,560 --> 00:00:50,040 Speaker 2: happy to meet Foreign Minister Penny Wong and speak with 14 00:00:50,120 --> 00:00:54,440 Speaker 2: Prime Minister Anthony ALBERANIZI is her two children she's longing 15 00:00:54,480 --> 00:01:00,400 Speaker 2: to embrace. I'm at Middleton and this is Headgame today. 16 00:01:00,600 --> 00:01:03,840 Speaker 2: Chung lay on how she survived brutal torture while in 17 00:01:03,920 --> 00:01:11,280 Speaker 2: detention in China on trumped up charges. Chang lay, really 18 00:01:11,360 --> 00:01:14,720 Speaker 2: lovely to meet you, Carr. Talk about being put through 19 00:01:14,760 --> 00:01:18,720 Speaker 2: the meal. Wow, you know, being being accused of being 20 00:01:18,760 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 2: a spy ultimately of you know, you're a journalist and 21 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:28,920 Speaker 2: you were you were in China's state run English news channel. 22 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,000 Speaker 1: What was that news channel? 23 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:34,760 Speaker 3: Or as we used to joke, can't get the news. 24 00:01:37,200 --> 00:01:38,679 Speaker 1: I like that one. I'm going to use that one. 25 00:01:39,000 --> 00:01:41,440 Speaker 2: But just take me back to before we get into 26 00:01:41,480 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 2: the nitty gritty of what happened in China and card 27 00:01:45,520 --> 00:01:47,640 Speaker 2: the horrendous situation that you went through. 28 00:01:47,720 --> 00:01:48,960 Speaker 1: Talk to me about your childhood. 29 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:53,240 Speaker 2: Ley, have you always have you always been interested in journalism? 30 00:01:54,000 --> 00:01:56,360 Speaker 2: How did you find yourself at this news channel. 31 00:01:57,040 --> 00:02:02,800 Speaker 3: I had always enjoyed writing and did some public speaking 32 00:02:02,840 --> 00:02:07,000 Speaker 3: in high school, but my dad thought doing accounting was 33 00:02:07,000 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 3: more employable. And you know, the famous quote is in 34 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 3: the book about how I'm not pretty and I'm not 35 00:02:14,400 --> 00:02:20,799 Speaker 3: blonde and Lee Lynchin, the famous multi cultural channel presenter, 36 00:02:20,960 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: was not going to retire, so accounting was and I 37 00:02:25,240 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 3: stayed five years in a profession I wasn't into. But 38 00:02:29,680 --> 00:02:34,960 Speaker 3: I'm so glad I took a huge pay cut to 39 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 3: get out of finance and move into journalism. 40 00:02:40,240 --> 00:02:43,960 Speaker 2: And so were your parents quite strict growing up? Like 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: how was it what was it like in the household 42 00:02:46,240 --> 00:02:47,920 Speaker 2: and Was it quite disciplined? 43 00:02:48,040 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: Was it quite structured? How did that look? 44 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:51,000 Speaker 4: Growing up? 45 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:56,560 Speaker 3: First generation immigrant family, always you know, scraping to make ends. 46 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:01,200 Speaker 3: Neat My mom was working afternoon shift an ice cream factory, 47 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:03,960 Speaker 3: so you know, it grew a bit pudgy in the 48 00:03:04,560 --> 00:03:05,520 Speaker 3: the teenage years. 49 00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:06,800 Speaker 4: A lot of ice cream. 50 00:03:07,360 --> 00:03:08,040 Speaker 1: Oh you did? 51 00:03:08,120 --> 00:03:11,480 Speaker 2: You got a bit bochy? Were you just eating ice 52 00:03:11,560 --> 00:03:14,600 Speaker 2: cream after ice cream? Do you know what? As a kid, 53 00:03:14,639 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: I don't blame you, just yeah, do you know what? 54 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:18,400 Speaker 1: That's quite a funny story. 55 00:03:18,440 --> 00:03:22,880 Speaker 5: Actually, Like my first job after UNI was actually the 56 00:03:22,919 --> 00:03:25,800 Speaker 5: cabrit Schwebs, so a lot of chocolate went down the 57 00:03:25,800 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 5: gullet as well, so I saved up for the lean 58 00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:30,919 Speaker 5: years to come. 59 00:03:31,520 --> 00:03:32,520 Speaker 1: I love that so well. 60 00:03:32,600 --> 00:03:35,320 Speaker 2: As though you're your childhood was full of chocolate and 61 00:03:35,400 --> 00:03:38,720 Speaker 2: ice cream, that's great, But. 62 00:03:38,720 --> 00:03:41,520 Speaker 1: It was was it? Was it strict? Was it could you? 63 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:44,400 Speaker 2: Were you allowed to sort of express yourself and do 64 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:45,280 Speaker 2: do you what you wanted to do? 65 00:03:45,360 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: Or was it quite a regimented My dad is. 66 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:51,800 Speaker 6: An academic and he always wanted me to do well, 67 00:03:52,240 --> 00:03:56,360 Speaker 6: as did my mum, So at first we weren't sure 68 00:03:56,440 --> 00:04:00,160 Speaker 6: we would be able to stay in Australia and the 69 00:04:00,240 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 6: preparation was that I would take the famously difficult tertiary 70 00:04:04,920 --> 00:04:08,040 Speaker 6: entrance exams back in China. So I had to do 71 00:04:08,080 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 6: a lot of math problems growing up and just generally 72 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:19,920 Speaker 6: never felt that I was I was good enough. That's 73 00:04:20,360 --> 00:04:22,720 Speaker 6: common to many Asian children, I think. 74 00:04:22,960 --> 00:04:26,000 Speaker 2: And did you feel that from a young age or 75 00:04:26,000 --> 00:04:27,880 Speaker 2: did you feel that as you were as you were 76 00:04:27,880 --> 00:04:29,200 Speaker 2: progressing through your education. 77 00:04:29,400 --> 00:04:34,320 Speaker 6: Yes, and it's not about what I like doing as 78 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:37,960 Speaker 6: much as it is about what my parents think I 79 00:04:37,960 --> 00:04:43,200 Speaker 6: should be doing. I guess, again common to children of 80 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:49,680 Speaker 6: first generation immigrants trying to do well. But I always 81 00:04:49,760 --> 00:04:54,400 Speaker 6: enjoyed reading and finding out about the world have all, 82 00:04:54,800 --> 00:04:56,000 Speaker 6: and I was always very. 83 00:04:55,839 --> 00:05:01,480 Speaker 3: Adaptable because my family had moved around a lot really helped. 84 00:05:02,120 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: So you're quite quite creative. 85 00:05:04,279 --> 00:05:07,640 Speaker 2: Quite curious when did sort of journalism come on into 86 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,920 Speaker 2: the fold and how did you How did your parents 87 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,280 Speaker 2: take that when you first voiced interest in that. 88 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:18,719 Speaker 3: Well, my goal had always been to get out of 89 00:05:18,720 --> 00:05:21,800 Speaker 3: the family home as soon as possible and make my 90 00:05:21,839 --> 00:05:27,599 Speaker 3: own decisions. So it just has so happened that I 91 00:05:27,720 --> 00:05:32,840 Speaker 3: moved to Melbourne to work first, and then to China 92 00:05:32,880 --> 00:05:37,760 Speaker 3: to change into journalism. So I was allowed to make 93 00:05:37,760 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 3: my own persons. 94 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:40,480 Speaker 1: When did that transition happen? 95 00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,320 Speaker 6: The end of two thousand and I took a business 96 00:05:44,400 --> 00:05:50,479 Speaker 6: analyst job to move to fast changing China and worked 97 00:05:50,520 --> 00:05:54,800 Speaker 6: there for a year, discovered how chaotic and fascinating it 98 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:59,960 Speaker 6: all was, so stayed in China to go into journalism 99 00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:06,239 Speaker 6: and that was the start of a very rewarding career. 100 00:06:06,600 --> 00:06:07,600 Speaker 1: I love what you just said. 101 00:06:07,600 --> 00:06:12,000 Speaker 2: It was a chaotic but interesting, you know, chaotic but 102 00:06:12,120 --> 00:06:16,040 Speaker 2: fascinating move. What was the transition like were you were 103 00:06:16,080 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 2: you an Australian kid still at heart or was the 104 00:06:18,640 --> 00:06:21,520 Speaker 2: culture shock quite quite seamlessly. 105 00:06:21,800 --> 00:06:25,640 Speaker 4: I always felt culturally and linguistically schizophrenic. 106 00:06:26,200 --> 00:06:28,960 Speaker 6: It just just depends on the context and the company 107 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 6: as to what I feel and how much of it 108 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 6: I feel. I think in a room full of Chinese people, 109 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:37,000 Speaker 6: I feel very Australian. 110 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:41,280 Speaker 3: And people pick up on my energy and my irreverence 111 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:46,720 Speaker 3: and definitely my sixth sense of humor, Whereas in a 112 00:06:46,880 --> 00:06:51,880 Speaker 3: room full of non Chinese, I feel the Chinese part 113 00:06:51,960 --> 00:06:55,480 Speaker 3: as well as in I see really. 114 00:06:55,320 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 4: Things through. 115 00:06:57,600 --> 00:06:58,480 Speaker 1: A different lens. 116 00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:00,120 Speaker 4: But I think. 117 00:07:01,680 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 6: In many things because I spent my formative years in 118 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:06,200 Speaker 6: Australia or in a western country. 119 00:07:06,400 --> 00:07:08,719 Speaker 4: I'm definitely not Chinese. 120 00:07:09,320 --> 00:07:12,720 Speaker 2: How old are you when you went from Melbourne to China? 121 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:14,840 Speaker 4: I was twenty five. 122 00:07:15,200 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 2: Oh wow, so you're still young, knew in your career. 123 00:07:18,680 --> 00:07:20,760 Speaker 2: I suppose it's quite exciting for you then, right. 124 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:25,520 Speaker 6: It was just that sense of I'm learning so much 125 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,239 Speaker 6: every day and being pushed out of the comfort zone 126 00:07:28,520 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 6: and using my bilingual advantage to really help people. 127 00:07:34,520 --> 00:07:36,160 Speaker 4: So that was quite cool. 128 00:07:36,840 --> 00:07:40,040 Speaker 6: And then when I got into journalism to really find 129 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 6: my calling and the immediacy and just the exciting prospect 130 00:07:46,800 --> 00:07:52,320 Speaker 6: of meeting different people every day, it was mind blowing. 131 00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:57,960 Speaker 2: And how did the Australian journalism and Chinese journalism? 132 00:07:58,000 --> 00:07:59,720 Speaker 1: How did they differ? Was ever? 133 00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:03,040 Speaker 2: Was there a huge difference between the two or did 134 00:08:03,040 --> 00:08:05,720 Speaker 2: does journalism sort of mix together? 135 00:08:06,040 --> 00:08:07,280 Speaker 1: How different was it. 136 00:08:07,200 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: Going from on the straight being an Australian journalist to 137 00:08:11,520 --> 00:08:12,520 Speaker 2: a Chinese channel. 138 00:08:12,320 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 3: Because I switched Koreas in China, so I hadn't known 139 00:08:15,840 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 3: how an Australian journalism an Australian journalist was. But after 140 00:08:22,440 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 3: a year and a half when I was poached to 141 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,560 Speaker 3: join CNBC, I then really. 142 00:08:28,320 --> 00:08:33,520 Speaker 6: Learned the ropes of proper journalism because the state broadcaster in. 143 00:08:33,480 --> 00:08:38,280 Speaker 3: China was just setting up its fledgling English channel and 144 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,359 Speaker 3: that's when I joined. So none of it was very professional, 145 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:47,120 Speaker 3: and they liked the fact that I had the business 146 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:54,600 Speaker 3: experience and the bilingual skills, but I wasn't really doing. 147 00:08:54,600 --> 00:08:58,440 Speaker 4: Top not journalism to be to be honest. 148 00:08:59,480 --> 00:09:03,240 Speaker 2: Will you give like free rain? Naively given like free 149 00:09:03,320 --> 00:09:05,120 Speaker 2: rain just to just to figure things out. 150 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 6: I definitely experienced a lot more freedom than I expected, 151 00:09:10,200 --> 00:09:13,560 Speaker 6: I think because the respect was there. 152 00:09:13,559 --> 00:09:15,160 Speaker 4: Given my as he set of skills. 153 00:09:15,920 --> 00:09:20,360 Speaker 3: The management was fairly young and inexperienced as well, so 154 00:09:21,120 --> 00:09:25,920 Speaker 3: they thought giving me more free reign was easier than 155 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:29,840 Speaker 3: them figuring it out themselves. I remember the first time 156 00:09:30,040 --> 00:09:34,160 Speaker 3: I did a live broadcast, I had the deer in 157 00:09:34,200 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 3: the headlights look it was midnight because it was about 158 00:09:38,920 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 3: the you know, the US basically entering Iraq, and I 159 00:09:45,520 --> 00:09:50,360 Speaker 3: had no idea of the military terminology. Google wasn't as 160 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: you know, helpful as it is now, so there was 161 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:58,720 Speaker 3: a lot of pramming and trying to make. 162 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:01,359 Speaker 4: It look as if I knew what I was doing. 163 00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: How did it come through or how did it look? 164 00:10:04,600 --> 00:10:08,360 Speaker 2: Being in China and you you having to figure it 165 00:10:08,400 --> 00:10:10,600 Speaker 2: out like that, because I suppose if you make some 166 00:10:10,679 --> 00:10:13,760 Speaker 2: mistakes there, they're not just like in Australia or in 167 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:16,240 Speaker 2: Western culture where you go are you know, you shouldn't 168 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 2: be doing this, you shouldn't be saying this and they 169 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:22,080 Speaker 2: brush it off. Were the rules and regulations a lot 170 00:10:22,120 --> 00:10:22,720 Speaker 2: stricter there? 171 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,320 Speaker 3: The censorship is strict for Chinese media, but because it 172 00:10:28,400 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: was an English channel, it was being broadcast to foreigners, 173 00:10:33,960 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 3: and that's why they could allow much more freedom I mean, 174 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 3: Which is not to say that you can jump up 175 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,400 Speaker 3: and you know, say Tideman Square massacre killed thousands of people, 176 00:10:48,080 --> 00:10:52,559 Speaker 3: or you know, to bet independence or anything. But what 177 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:56,360 Speaker 3: I mean is dealing with the news is a lot 178 00:10:56,440 --> 00:11:02,800 Speaker 3: more relaxed compared to say the Chinese colleagues. 179 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:06,160 Speaker 2: And was there ever a moment that you felt that 180 00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:10,920 Speaker 2: you were overstepping the line that you know, you're probably 181 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:14,080 Speaker 2: doing things that you should that that weren't sort of 182 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,080 Speaker 2: in line with the rules and regulations. Do you feel 183 00:11:18,120 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: like there was a government influence somewhere or did were 184 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:25,560 Speaker 2: you just just cracking on with what you had. 185 00:11:25,840 --> 00:11:29,640 Speaker 3: I was a business presenter. I guess it's a lot 186 00:11:29,760 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 3: more objective. You know, a company makes money or it 187 00:11:34,640 --> 00:11:41,080 Speaker 3: doesn't make money. It's not wide as spin worthy as 188 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:46,880 Speaker 3: say current affairs. And I mean two thousand and two 189 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,120 Speaker 3: China was a lot different compared to now. 190 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 2: Yeah, and when did so when did you realize that 191 00:11:53,600 --> 00:11:57,040 Speaker 2: something wasn't quite right? When did you realize that there 192 00:11:57,080 --> 00:11:59,880 Speaker 2: was there was sort of maybe a bit of government 193 00:12:00,360 --> 00:12:04,760 Speaker 2: into intervention or was there no signs whatsoever? 194 00:12:04,840 --> 00:12:05,000 Speaker 3: Oh? 195 00:12:05,040 --> 00:12:05,719 Speaker 4: Of course there were. 196 00:12:05,800 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 3: Science. 197 00:12:06,720 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 6: The sensitivities are the three t's and one F so Taiwan, Teneman, Tibet, 198 00:12:14,600 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 6: and f being fallen Gong, which at the time China 199 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:23,160 Speaker 6: was really trying to crack down on, which is a 200 00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:29,000 Speaker 6: large group of practitioners of what started out being sort 201 00:12:29,000 --> 00:12:33,880 Speaker 6: of well being sports kind of practice and turned into 202 00:12:34,120 --> 00:12:35,880 Speaker 6: what the government branded a colt. 203 00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:36,560 Speaker 3: Wow. 204 00:12:37,080 --> 00:12:40,719 Speaker 2: So, so take me back to that moment when everything 205 00:12:40,920 --> 00:12:41,760 Speaker 2: just sort of. 206 00:12:42,200 --> 00:12:45,080 Speaker 1: Went wrong, when you when you when you realize. 207 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:47,719 Speaker 2: That you know you are now in the hands of 208 00:12:48,080 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 2: a government being accused of absolutely horrendous things. How how 209 00:12:53,000 --> 00:12:55,320 Speaker 2: did it transpire from you being at work to all 210 00:12:55,360 --> 00:12:56,960 Speaker 2: of a sudden being behind bars. 211 00:12:57,280 --> 00:13:01,040 Speaker 3: So many people ask me about that or that day, 212 00:13:01,720 --> 00:13:09,320 Speaker 3: But it is not an instantaneous realization because you still 213 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,839 Speaker 3: have all these hopes and all these wrong ideas that 214 00:13:14,920 --> 00:13:17,880 Speaker 3: things can be fixed, that it's a mistake, that if 215 00:13:17,920 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 3: you're honest and tell them the truth, nothing bad will happen, 216 00:13:21,640 --> 00:13:23,920 Speaker 3: and you will get a phone call and you will 217 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 3: be able to see the embassy right away, and you 218 00:13:26,800 --> 00:13:33,280 Speaker 3: can get a lawyer, and all these silly, naively held ideas. 219 00:13:34,040 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 3: And it wasn't until a month or two later, when 220 00:13:37,960 --> 00:13:43,280 Speaker 3: all those hopes were dashed, that I really realized that 221 00:13:44,160 --> 00:13:45,520 Speaker 3: I was cooked. 222 00:13:45,760 --> 00:13:58,840 Speaker 6: As my son would say. 223 00:13:57,400 --> 00:14:00,800 Speaker 2: When did reality kick in that at actually you know 224 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: things have got extremely bad, extremely ugly, and that that 225 00:14:05,320 --> 00:14:08,520 Speaker 2: you know you have been cooked and deep fried. Was 226 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:11,880 Speaker 2: there a moment of bomb in your head of I'm 227 00:14:11,880 --> 00:14:13,080 Speaker 2: not going to get out of this situation. 228 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 3: It's like falling or it's like quicksand, and there is 229 00:14:19,600 --> 00:14:20,160 Speaker 3: no one to. 230 00:14:20,160 --> 00:14:28,560 Speaker 4: Help you, no avenue of redress. And you. 231 00:14:30,080 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 3: Start to question everything that you ever believed about civil liberty, 232 00:14:37,520 --> 00:14:44,240 Speaker 3: about human rights, and give up any. 233 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:47,880 Speaker 4: Idea that someone, something can help you. 234 00:14:48,800 --> 00:14:54,720 Speaker 3: And and actually, once you hit bottom, then you actually 235 00:14:54,800 --> 00:14:56,360 Speaker 3: can bounce back. 236 00:14:56,880 --> 00:14:59,320 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's only one way up. When you hit bottom, 237 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:02,040 Speaker 2: look at the situation, you think it can't get any worse, 238 00:15:02,120 --> 00:15:03,760 Speaker 2: so I can I can only go up from here. 239 00:15:03,800 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 2: That that takes a certain mindset to think like that. 240 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:09,240 Speaker 2: But when you said that you were by yourself, I 241 00:15:09,280 --> 00:15:12,760 Speaker 2: suppose because you were telling the truth, because you were, 242 00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,040 Speaker 2: you know, giving them everything they need, and all of 243 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 2: a sudden, all of that counted for nothing. 244 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:20,720 Speaker 1: So what have what have you got? Who have you got? 245 00:15:21,000 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 2: Did you really feel like that you were by yourself 246 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:24,760 Speaker 2: and that no one could come in and save you? 247 00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,680 Speaker 4: That's right. I was waiting for you, and and all 248 00:15:27,760 --> 00:15:32,360 Speaker 4: sudden where was your black Hawk helicopter? And I needed you? 249 00:15:32,840 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: There we go listen. It's because I'm from the UK. 250 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,200 Speaker 2: If I was Australian, then I might have I might 251 00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,720 Speaker 2: helicopter down and got you out, having. 252 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:44,000 Speaker 4: Meant that helicopter's unallowed in Beiji. 253 00:15:45,440 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 1: Were there, you go listen, I would have found another 254 00:15:47,240 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: way to get you. Don't worry about that. 255 00:15:49,520 --> 00:15:52,480 Speaker 2: So when were things really really bad? Because you were 256 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:57,160 Speaker 2: cohersed into into, you know, admitting that you admitting to 257 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,600 Speaker 2: a five year sentence, and I suppose that this time 258 00:16:00,720 --> 00:16:03,440 Speaker 2: you just want this situation, this nightmare, to end, so 259 00:16:03,480 --> 00:16:07,520 Speaker 2: you're probably agreeing to absolutely everything. How did that look 260 00:16:07,880 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 2: on a day to day basis, And how did they 261 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:15,040 Speaker 2: manage to actually coherse you to say that you're guilty 262 00:16:15,080 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: in some way, shape or form, and that you've got 263 00:16:17,600 --> 00:16:18,800 Speaker 2: to do five years in prison. 264 00:16:18,960 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 3: Well, the five years actually occurred a year later, a 265 00:16:23,040 --> 00:16:26,440 Speaker 3: year or two months later, when I signed a lediency 266 00:16:26,560 --> 00:16:31,360 Speaker 3: agreement with the prosecutor and my lawyers present. But leading 267 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:33,920 Speaker 3: up to that, the first six months in what they 268 00:16:34,040 --> 00:16:39,560 Speaker 3: call RSDL residential surveillance at a designated location. That's a 269 00:16:39,840 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 3: system of torture aimed at belittling. 270 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,040 Speaker 1: You, erasing, breaking you down. 271 00:16:47,320 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 4: Yes, and you mentioned isolation. That's right. 272 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:58,200 Speaker 3: I felt I was under a rock, away from everything, 273 00:16:58,440 --> 00:17:01,960 Speaker 3: away from the living world, and yet I was guarded 274 00:17:02,000 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 3: constantly by two people. And there are people sometimes online 275 00:17:07,359 --> 00:17:11,240 Speaker 3: who say, oh, that could never have happened, that's impossible, 276 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,800 Speaker 3: but oh yes, that does happen to people stuck to me, 277 00:17:16,520 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 3: want my ride on in front of me at all times, 278 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:27,480 Speaker 3: three pairs of yell gods just watching me every moment. 279 00:17:28,040 --> 00:17:31,439 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's observation on you twenty four to seven. You know, 280 00:17:31,480 --> 00:17:34,440 Speaker 2: they're watching your every movement. It's almost like a death 281 00:17:34,480 --> 00:17:37,639 Speaker 2: by a thousand cuts. You know, they're slowly grinding you down. 282 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:40,639 Speaker 2: They're making you more and more isolated. That's what they 283 00:17:40,680 --> 00:17:43,000 Speaker 2: do that makes you more and more isolated. They make 284 00:17:43,080 --> 00:17:45,919 Speaker 2: you think like that you're losing your mind. And then 285 00:17:46,040 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 2: then when you you're most vulnerable, that's when that's when 286 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,280 Speaker 2: they attack, because all you want to do is for 287 00:17:51,359 --> 00:17:52,880 Speaker 2: this nightmare to end. 288 00:17:53,280 --> 00:17:54,840 Speaker 1: I get it. I know the tactics. 289 00:17:54,880 --> 00:17:57,160 Speaker 2: I know exactly what they do, and I can sit 290 00:17:57,240 --> 00:18:01,479 Speaker 2: here and say that they do do that, so I 291 00:18:01,560 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: know that. 292 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:02,400 Speaker 1: For a fact. 293 00:18:02,480 --> 00:18:06,520 Speaker 2: It's a way of grinding you down to extract information 294 00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:10,840 Speaker 2: from you why this is happening. Are you Are you 295 00:18:10,960 --> 00:18:14,000 Speaker 2: trying to reach out to people to maybe get out 296 00:18:14,000 --> 00:18:14,800 Speaker 2: of the country. 297 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:17,200 Speaker 1: Are you reaching out to the Australian embassy? 298 00:18:18,560 --> 00:18:20,760 Speaker 2: Are you sort of working in the background to try 299 00:18:20,760 --> 00:18:23,120 Speaker 2: and get out of there? Or you just playing ball 300 00:18:23,200 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 2: because in your eyes, you're not guilty and you know 301 00:18:27,400 --> 00:18:29,200 Speaker 2: it's been a mistake and they're going to let you out. 302 00:18:29,240 --> 00:18:31,640 Speaker 1: What's going through your head? Are you planning stuff? What's 303 00:18:31,720 --> 00:18:32,120 Speaker 1: going on? 304 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:35,000 Speaker 4: I couldn't see anyone. I had nothing of my own. 305 00:18:35,119 --> 00:18:38,320 Speaker 1: I was in an utterly no passport, knowing no I 306 00:18:38,359 --> 00:18:38,640 Speaker 1: was in. 307 00:18:38,600 --> 00:18:43,200 Speaker 3: An utterly barren cell in a secret location in Beijing, 308 00:18:44,000 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 3: and my family couldn't contact me. 309 00:18:47,840 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 4: Under the Bilateral Councular agreement. 310 00:18:50,640 --> 00:18:54,639 Speaker 3: The embassy could visit me, what's for thirty minutes every month, 311 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,840 Speaker 3: but it is a heavily modected event with a translator 312 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:04,320 Speaker 3: taking down my comments, video cameras and. 313 00:19:04,240 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 4: Officers surrounding me just in case I mentioned anything about 314 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:10,840 Speaker 4: the case, even the word case. 315 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:13,600 Speaker 3: If I said case, they would stop the visit and 316 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,000 Speaker 3: they would warn you. You lose privileges to visits if 317 00:19:18,040 --> 00:19:20,000 Speaker 3: you if you say anything about the case. 318 00:19:20,359 --> 00:19:24,000 Speaker 2: And what were they accusing you of of doing or 319 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:26,800 Speaker 2: of being? We know they're accusing you of espionage, but 320 00:19:27,080 --> 00:19:27,879 Speaker 2: at what level? 321 00:19:27,920 --> 00:19:30,080 Speaker 1: What? What? What details were they throwing at you? And 322 00:19:31,119 --> 00:19:31,960 Speaker 1: how did that look? 323 00:19:32,160 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 3: Well, basically, they operate on a suspect and arrest first, 324 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,440 Speaker 3: find a story. 325 00:19:40,600 --> 00:19:44,440 Speaker 4: Sort of next kind of mode of operation. 326 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:49,280 Speaker 3: And they just they said they started surveiling me in 327 00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 3: April because I was in frequent contact with foreign journalists, 328 00:19:53,480 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 3: which is a joke, because I've always been in frequent 329 00:19:56,080 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 3: contact with foreign journalists, and as a foreign journalists in China. 330 00:19:59,520 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 4: Why can't I be in frequent cock a job? Yeah, exactly. 331 00:20:03,400 --> 00:20:06,080 Speaker 4: So that's ridiculous, and it just so happens. 332 00:20:06,080 --> 00:20:09,920 Speaker 3: It happened a few days after the Australian then Foreign 333 00:20:09,960 --> 00:20:14,240 Speaker 3: Minister called for an independent investigation into the source of COVID, 334 00:20:14,720 --> 00:20:18,320 Speaker 3: which is aimed at China, and China is super touchy 335 00:20:18,359 --> 00:20:23,919 Speaker 3: about that topic. So surveillance on myself and I know 336 00:20:24,160 --> 00:20:28,240 Speaker 3: of at least another Australian started around that time, and 337 00:20:28,280 --> 00:20:32,480 Speaker 3: they eventually rested me August. And this day I'm trying 338 00:20:32,480 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 3: to figure out why then, why not before? 339 00:20:35,560 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 4: And the so called you know, leaking state secret event happened. 340 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,399 Speaker 3: In May and that's only because during their raid of 341 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 3: my apartment they found a copy of the Premier's Work Report, 342 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:51,440 Speaker 3: which is kind of like the National Budget. I guess 343 00:20:52,040 --> 00:20:55,640 Speaker 3: the Premier actually read out that document at nine point 344 00:20:55,640 --> 00:21:01,760 Speaker 3: thirty that day, May twenty second. But the accusation was 345 00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:05,399 Speaker 3: that I broke the bargo of seven thirty am that 346 00:21:05,520 --> 00:21:10,679 Speaker 3: morning by sharing eight words of it with my friend 347 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:12,000 Speaker 3: at Bloomberg. 348 00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 4: And Blueberg being an American organization, that's that's a crime. 349 00:21:18,240 --> 00:21:21,639 Speaker 3: And the thing is, the seven point thirty embargo type 350 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:25,520 Speaker 3: is not set out on the document. Nobody knew there 351 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:31,879 Speaker 3: was any bargo type and this document saying you know, 352 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:34,480 Speaker 3: the bargo type of seven thirty was made up a 353 00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,359 Speaker 3: year later because the prosecutor said, hang on, you guys 354 00:21:39,359 --> 00:21:41,480 Speaker 3: don't have a case unless you have this document. So 355 00:21:42,040 --> 00:21:45,880 Speaker 3: that went to a different ministry to make up this document. 356 00:21:46,400 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 2: Wow, when do they start pushing sort of like the 357 00:21:50,640 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 2: guilty please saying, look, if you accept this prison sentence, 358 00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,879 Speaker 2: then were we charge you for this and not this? 359 00:21:57,040 --> 00:21:58,480 Speaker 1: So I know what they do. 360 00:21:58,280 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 2: They'd like to think that they give you a less 361 00:22:00,280 --> 00:22:04,080 Speaker 2: sentence and you admit that you're guilty to lesser charges, 362 00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 2: et cetera, et cetera. When did that come into play? 363 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:10,280 Speaker 2: And when did you agree to take the five year 364 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:10,960 Speaker 2: prison sentence. 365 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 3: Well, they went through in those six months, they went 366 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,560 Speaker 3: through every text on my phone, they went through all 367 00:22:17,600 --> 00:22:19,639 Speaker 3: of my electronics, and. 368 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:23,520 Speaker 4: That was all they could stick on me. So they 369 00:22:23,720 --> 00:22:25,320 Speaker 4: made me sign a. 370 00:22:25,280 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 3: Confession and record confessions on video saying that I was 371 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:34,720 Speaker 3: guilty of this crime. And in the next phase, which 372 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:38,199 Speaker 3: went to prosecution, they started to get some of the 373 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 3: other documents needed, like testimonials from my colleagues coerced at 374 00:22:46,000 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 3: false I should say to say that they had told 375 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:51,120 Speaker 3: me it was a classified. 376 00:22:50,560 --> 00:22:53,920 Speaker 4: Document, which is BS. 377 00:22:53,960 --> 00:23:01,520 Speaker 3: And they also arrested my friend Hayes Vat of the 378 00:23:01,840 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 3: testimony or for her. 379 00:23:04,440 --> 00:23:12,720 Speaker 4: So I think they suspected me of some maybe they 380 00:23:12,760 --> 00:23:13,200 Speaker 4: thought that. 381 00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:16,399 Speaker 3: I was really a spy, and then when they felt 382 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:19,280 Speaker 3: that I wasn't, there was no way they could go 383 00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:19,840 Speaker 3: back on it. 384 00:23:20,720 --> 00:23:21,480 Speaker 4: And they had to. 385 00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:23,440 Speaker 1: Think they were too far in it. 386 00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:26,680 Speaker 3: Yep, it wouldn't been the big boss of face, so 387 00:23:26,760 --> 00:23:29,960 Speaker 3: they had to be in something go be. There happened 388 00:23:30,000 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: to be this document that they found on my desk, 389 00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,600 Speaker 3: and that was that. 390 00:23:34,359 --> 00:23:34,560 Speaker 4: Wow. 391 00:23:34,600 --> 00:23:36,720 Speaker 2: And I suppose for you to take a five year 392 00:23:36,800 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 2: sentence as well. I can only imagine during that time 393 00:23:40,960 --> 00:23:44,200 Speaker 2: that you know, the numbers of twenty years, thirty years 394 00:23:44,200 --> 00:23:48,080 Speaker 2: were being thrown around to you and lifetime in prison 395 00:23:48,160 --> 00:23:51,080 Speaker 2: because you know five years is a long time, and 396 00:23:51,080 --> 00:23:53,840 Speaker 2: for you to then go, do you know what, I'm 397 00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,479 Speaker 2: going to take the five years because it's not the 398 00:23:56,520 --> 00:23:59,240 Speaker 2: thirty years or the lifetime sentence that they've been talking 399 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 2: about for the last year and a half or six 400 00:24:01,600 --> 00:24:04,160 Speaker 2: months or whatever it may be. I know their tricks, right, 401 00:24:04,240 --> 00:24:07,680 Speaker 2: So are you relieved in a way when they say, look, 402 00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,720 Speaker 2: we'll give you five years if you sign this. 403 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,399 Speaker 4: Yeah, I was absolutely, I was asked. 404 00:24:14,400 --> 00:24:17,600 Speaker 3: Actually I was told that this was rock bottom price 405 00:24:18,320 --> 00:24:22,600 Speaker 3: and that I should be grateful because you know, somebody 406 00:24:22,640 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 3: else wouldn't have got this. So I had to thank 407 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:28,560 Speaker 3: the prosecutor, I had to thank everyone and pretend that 408 00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:32,200 Speaker 3: this was wonderful, that I was only losing five years 409 00:24:32,200 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 3: of my life. But in a way, again you would 410 00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 3: know about the psychology. The certainty is very soothing. 411 00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: You know exactly what you need to do. Now you're 412 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:46,840 Speaker 2: not left in in Yeah, you're not left in limbo. 413 00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:50,399 Speaker 2: You know you exactly so you can go right. You 414 00:24:50,440 --> 00:24:52,119 Speaker 2: know what I know I need to do five years, 415 00:24:52,160 --> 00:24:54,240 Speaker 2: and five years in China means five years. 416 00:24:54,320 --> 00:24:54,520 Speaker 4: Right. 417 00:24:56,200 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 3: With state security cases, they don't do sentence reductions. 418 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 2: So do you get transferred once you once you agree 419 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,080 Speaker 2: to this, which again I talk about the death by 420 00:25:05,080 --> 00:25:08,560 Speaker 2: a thousand carts. You know they're one you. They've obviously 421 00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 2: broken you down. I know it all too well. And 422 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:14,600 Speaker 2: then all of a sudden you sign this documentation. Is 423 00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 2: there a transfer over from your isolated sort of observation 424 00:25:18,240 --> 00:25:20,280 Speaker 2: cell into into a proper prison. 425 00:25:20,400 --> 00:25:22,439 Speaker 3: Well, for the first six months I was in the 426 00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,359 Speaker 3: isolated cell with the two guards watching me at all times, 427 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:28,800 Speaker 3: and then I was transferred to detention, which is just 428 00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 3: in the same facility. But I had three cell mats, 429 00:25:32,800 --> 00:25:36,760 Speaker 3: so that helped a great deal. And I never went 430 00:25:36,800 --> 00:25:41,399 Speaker 3: through a proper prison, but I wouldn't invite to have 431 00:25:41,480 --> 00:25:44,000 Speaker 3: gone because it would have meant I could see the 432 00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:44,880 Speaker 3: sky a bit. 433 00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:48,800 Speaker 4: More sun and all people to talk to, all things 434 00:25:48,800 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 4: to do. 435 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:49,560 Speaker 3: Yeah. 436 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:53,440 Speaker 2: Absolutely, So basically you were like kept in isolation. You're 437 00:25:53,480 --> 00:25:56,359 Speaker 2: probably kept away from the general public, from the general 438 00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:59,640 Speaker 2: prisons because you probably had more access to things, and 439 00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 2: you know, they just wanted to keep you silent and 440 00:26:02,560 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 2: keep you away from the public eye, keep you, you know, 441 00:26:06,040 --> 00:26:10,160 Speaker 2: keep you away from you having any sort of any 442 00:26:10,400 --> 00:26:13,800 Speaker 2: any way of getting a message out or you know, 443 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:17,439 Speaker 2: becoming this this you know Ozzie stuck in you know, 444 00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:19,920 Speaker 2: in prison in China and then for the pressure to 445 00:26:19,960 --> 00:26:22,560 Speaker 2: be put on the government. Are you still communicating and 446 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,520 Speaker 2: are you still having your monthly visits with the with 447 00:26:26,600 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 2: an Australian embassy officials. 448 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: I had them sept for the few months that they 449 00:26:32,440 --> 00:26:33,520 Speaker 3: stopped because of. 450 00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:36,959 Speaker 2: COVID and and how how do they go? How how 451 00:26:37,040 --> 00:26:39,880 Speaker 2: did you feel any hope from from the Australian embassy 452 00:26:39,920 --> 00:26:42,120 Speaker 2: that that things would change. 453 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:47,239 Speaker 3: Because at the time the Australian government has changed and 454 00:26:47,440 --> 00:26:52,680 Speaker 3: the relationship was the worst it had ever been. So 455 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,960 Speaker 3: what they, what the consular officers could do for me 456 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,520 Speaker 3: was try to pass me books that my family had 457 00:26:59,600 --> 00:27:04,680 Speaker 3: dropped by the embassy, try to ask how by physical 458 00:27:04,680 --> 00:27:11,719 Speaker 3: conditions were, and listen to my latest store of innate jokes. 459 00:27:11,760 --> 00:27:14,560 Speaker 3: And because that was the only chance, like thirty minutes 460 00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:17,800 Speaker 3: for thirty days, the only chance to speak to people 461 00:27:18,000 --> 00:27:20,320 Speaker 3: who addressed me by name. Otherwise I was just a 462 00:27:20,440 --> 00:27:23,560 Speaker 3: number yep, and I could speak English again the only 463 00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:28,120 Speaker 3: time and speak to people who knew me as a person, 464 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:33,760 Speaker 3: not as a prisoner. And everyone was quite nervous, you know, 465 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:38,160 Speaker 3: they were concerned if they said something wrong, I would get, 466 00:27:38,480 --> 00:27:42,680 Speaker 3: you know, backlash, and I was afraid I would. 467 00:27:42,480 --> 00:27:43,840 Speaker 4: Lose the visits. 468 00:27:43,960 --> 00:27:48,040 Speaker 3: And they made it so gratuitously cruel that even though 469 00:27:48,080 --> 00:27:52,359 Speaker 3: they came to the detention center at did seven COVID tests, 470 00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:55,240 Speaker 3: the visits were still done by video link. 471 00:27:55,320 --> 00:27:56,880 Speaker 4: So they're interest in the next room. 472 00:27:57,200 --> 00:27:59,760 Speaker 3: But we had to wear masks and I just sit 473 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:03,720 Speaker 3: in the restraint chair and they couldn't even show me 474 00:28:03,880 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 3: the smiles. I could only read the wolves in their eyes. 475 00:28:08,560 --> 00:28:10,199 Speaker 3: And that's how crawl they are. 476 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 2: What does it look like on a day to day 477 00:28:12,600 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 2: for you? Did you structure a routine in your head 478 00:28:15,080 --> 00:28:17,199 Speaker 2: that you stuck to or was it just you just 479 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 2: surviving every day as it came. How did your day 480 00:28:20,520 --> 00:28:24,280 Speaker 2: to day life look while you were in prison in China? 481 00:28:24,359 --> 00:28:27,560 Speaker 3: I guess I just had this plan that if I'm 482 00:28:27,560 --> 00:28:30,880 Speaker 3: a prisoner, I'm going to be the hardest working prisoner, 483 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:35,080 Speaker 3: and I would start the day with a lot of 484 00:28:35,320 --> 00:28:40,920 Speaker 3: app crunches and yoga positions, and I would I did 485 00:28:40,920 --> 00:28:44,880 Speaker 3: a lot of push ups. There were only very think 486 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:51,040 Speaker 3: cloth shoes or slippers and no bras, so I couldn't 487 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:53,840 Speaker 3: do cardio, But I was always trying to jog on 488 00:28:53,920 --> 00:28:59,680 Speaker 3: the spot, doing punches in the air and burbies lunges. 489 00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 3: I was trying to learn languages and also recite, memorize 490 00:29:07,400 --> 00:29:11,040 Speaker 3: a lot of things as a sort of mental aerobics. 491 00:29:11,480 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 3: So while I was exercising, I would be trying to 492 00:29:15,640 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 3: exercise my brain as well. 493 00:29:17,760 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 4: And that's that's you know, when I read that. 494 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 3: Chapter in your book about the mind and the body, 495 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:27,440 Speaker 3: what you did that is so spot on, because. 496 00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:33,320 Speaker 4: You can't have one working as a stroll element and 497 00:29:33,400 --> 00:29:34,080 Speaker 4: not the other. 498 00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 2: That's right, they need to sing together. Yeah, absolutely exactly. 499 00:29:38,400 --> 00:29:40,440 Speaker 1: How did my book end up in your in your 500 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:41,120 Speaker 1: prison cell? 501 00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 3: All the way in China, I really wanted to read 502 00:29:46,920 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: English books because everything was in Chinese and. 503 00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 4: It really was a comfort to read things in English. 504 00:29:56,480 --> 00:30:01,320 Speaker 3: So my partner at the time by whatever was in 505 00:30:01,360 --> 00:30:06,440 Speaker 3: the bookstores, and also what he thought would be helpful 506 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,680 Speaker 3: to me, Mike, was a memoirs, like books about facing adversity, 507 00:30:11,840 --> 00:30:16,120 Speaker 3: about mental resilience, like your book. And I remember my 508 00:30:17,320 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 3: salveate reading your book and say, oh wow, there are 509 00:30:21,640 --> 00:30:24,160 Speaker 3: all these wonderful ways you could use the F word. 510 00:30:34,200 --> 00:30:37,280 Speaker 2: So you're reading and you're exercising, and and you say, 511 00:30:38,360 --> 00:30:41,320 Speaker 2: lay that they don't like to see you exercising, right, 512 00:30:41,360 --> 00:30:43,320 Speaker 2: They just want you to lie there. They want you 513 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:48,320 Speaker 2: to be like mind numbed. What was it like when 514 00:30:49,480 --> 00:30:52,120 Speaker 2: when they would they would come into your cell. 515 00:30:52,400 --> 00:30:57,040 Speaker 3: Well, they would use the intercom to buzz you if 516 00:30:57,080 --> 00:31:00,480 Speaker 3: they saw you doing something they did, like maybe having 517 00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,840 Speaker 3: a laugh or trying to hug a cell mate. 518 00:31:04,160 --> 00:31:06,440 Speaker 4: All of that, all of the things that make us 519 00:31:06,760 --> 00:31:09,440 Speaker 4: human were against the rules. 520 00:31:10,120 --> 00:31:14,800 Speaker 3: And then if you still persisted, they would come and 521 00:31:14,880 --> 00:31:18,760 Speaker 3: open the hatch to the. 522 00:31:17,840 --> 00:31:19,080 Speaker 4: Heavy steel. 523 00:31:20,840 --> 00:31:24,760 Speaker 7: Tentionent doors or they or they would come in, and 524 00:31:24,920 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 7: for them to come in is a big thing because 525 00:31:27,280 --> 00:31:30,200 Speaker 7: they have to open two layers of thick steel doors 526 00:31:30,720 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 7: and at the time they were all wearing they had 527 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,400 Speaker 7: to wear hazmat suits to come in because of COVID. 528 00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,080 Speaker 3: And they would try to make you feel as little 529 00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:46,160 Speaker 3: as possible, obviously by humiliating you and to make sure 530 00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:47,400 Speaker 3: that you stuck. 531 00:31:47,120 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 4: To the rules. 532 00:31:47,880 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 3: And you weren't that friendly with your cell mates, but 533 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:52,440 Speaker 3: you didn't cause trouble either. 534 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:59,440 Speaker 4: But because this state security detention facility had a lot 535 00:31:59,440 --> 00:32:02,360 Speaker 4: of foreign as, there was no violence. 536 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:05,400 Speaker 2: What I find fascinating in it is not only you 537 00:32:05,400 --> 00:32:09,080 Speaker 2: were isolated, you know, in your cell, but you're you're 538 00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:13,000 Speaker 2: ultimately isolated from the world because this is the peak 539 00:32:13,480 --> 00:32:17,440 Speaker 2: COVID time, right, this is the peak pandemic where the 540 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,040 Speaker 2: world is, the countries are locked off to other countries, 541 00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,480 Speaker 2: the world is almost locked down, and you're locked down 542 00:32:23,560 --> 00:32:27,640 Speaker 2: within within that scenario, within that situation, So you were 543 00:32:27,680 --> 00:32:32,120 Speaker 2: sort of like doubly isolated. Was there any time that 544 00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:34,240 Speaker 2: you lost hope, that you thought that you'd never get out. 545 00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,520 Speaker 4: I'm a pretty optimistic person. 546 00:32:37,240 --> 00:32:45,640 Speaker 3: I fantasized about good things a lot about sea swimming 547 00:32:46,200 --> 00:32:49,680 Speaker 3: and eating good food and being with fairly. 548 00:32:49,400 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 4: And friends again. 549 00:32:51,480 --> 00:32:55,120 Speaker 3: And also I think the books took me to another plane, 550 00:32:55,600 --> 00:33:01,000 Speaker 3: so I wasn't stuck in the intiquity of cell life, 551 00:33:01,560 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 3: and I didn't get too frustrated with the bickering among 552 00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:12,800 Speaker 3: my cellmates, and I could always escape through the books 553 00:33:13,480 --> 00:33:16,400 Speaker 3: and be at Middleton, you know, trying to do all 554 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:22,400 Speaker 3: these amazing things physically, trying to survive, you know, the 555 00:33:22,480 --> 00:33:23,680 Speaker 3: on the ships. 556 00:33:23,560 --> 00:33:28,480 Speaker 2: And whatnot Mount Everest and yeah, on the on the 557 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,800 Speaker 2: re re enactment of the mutiny on your bounty. Did 558 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 2: so you've got because you've got quite a creative mind. 559 00:33:34,600 --> 00:33:36,840 Speaker 2: Did you allow your mind to sort of take you 560 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:38,680 Speaker 2: away in those moments? Yes? 561 00:33:38,760 --> 00:33:39,920 Speaker 1: And did that help you survive? 562 00:33:40,040 --> 00:33:44,240 Speaker 3: And I think also helping my cell mates lifted me 563 00:33:44,960 --> 00:33:50,840 Speaker 3: a tremendous deal, because one of them was very depressed. 564 00:33:52,320 --> 00:33:56,200 Speaker 3: She was refusing food, just she just sat there, missing. 565 00:33:55,880 --> 00:34:00,960 Speaker 4: Her family all the time. Another cell mate was quite bubbly. 566 00:34:01,080 --> 00:34:01,240 Speaker 3: But. 567 00:34:02,720 --> 00:34:05,960 Speaker 4: I guess I taught her a lot of. 568 00:34:06,240 --> 00:34:13,120 Speaker 3: English slang and souls so that she could actually use 569 00:34:13,160 --> 00:34:18,480 Speaker 3: her might. And then we create a little trio with 570 00:34:18,560 --> 00:34:23,759 Speaker 3: the catatonic cell mate, and we used to just go 571 00:34:23,920 --> 00:34:29,920 Speaker 3: through these eighties salts together and of course always you know, 572 00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:35,560 Speaker 3: looking out for officers walking by our guard's patrolling. Still 573 00:34:35,560 --> 00:34:38,920 Speaker 3: we got told off quite a bit, But I think 574 00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 3: it's when you can make a difference to someone else's 575 00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,480 Speaker 3: five make their day a little bit more fun and 576 00:34:45,640 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 3: less painful, that. 577 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:50,200 Speaker 4: You just strive. 578 00:34:50,400 --> 00:34:53,479 Speaker 2: It sounds like that you were covering up your pain 579 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 2: and suffering by by helping others. It was a great 580 00:34:56,000 --> 00:34:59,920 Speaker 2: distraction for you. Did you actually believe that after five 581 00:35:00,080 --> 00:35:03,680 Speaker 2: years or maybe less, that you were going to get 582 00:35:03,719 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 2: out or did you just accept that this could go 583 00:35:06,920 --> 00:35:08,240 Speaker 2: on for years and years and years. 584 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 3: I was always hopeful that the information I found out 585 00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:20,120 Speaker 3: about these leniency agreements was correct, and I. 586 00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 4: Made sure to, I guess, not get on their nerves 587 00:35:25,239 --> 00:35:31,560 Speaker 4: too much, yeah, and not create trouble for them. I guess. 588 00:35:32,640 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 3: Those people guarding us weren't exactly having the best times 589 00:35:36,960 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 3: either because of COVID. They had to live there, a 590 00:35:40,560 --> 00:35:45,160 Speaker 3: lot of them, and what a depressing place of work, 591 00:35:45,520 --> 00:35:48,560 Speaker 3: right to witness suffering every day. 592 00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,480 Speaker 4: I don't know how they taught themselves into it, but 593 00:35:53,320 --> 00:35:54,960 Speaker 4: I just felt sorry for them. 594 00:35:55,200 --> 00:35:57,879 Speaker 2: But that's amazing that you've done that subconsciously, because that's 595 00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:02,080 Speaker 2: exactly what we were taught to do in a captive scenario, 596 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:06,200 Speaker 2: is is humanize yourself, build, build rapports, with with with 597 00:36:06,280 --> 00:36:10,200 Speaker 2: your guards and have you. Is there any military background 598 00:36:10,239 --> 00:36:12,279 Speaker 2: in you in your family, because it seems like that 599 00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:16,279 Speaker 2: you've you've got a good grasp on reality. 600 00:36:16,440 --> 00:36:21,719 Speaker 3: Not at all, but no, nothing, nothing, But I think 601 00:36:21,760 --> 00:36:24,520 Speaker 3: for my parents your survivor. 602 00:36:24,800 --> 00:36:26,000 Speaker 1: You are a survivor. 603 00:36:26,200 --> 00:36:30,359 Speaker 3: Well, the the Chinese people of my parents generation are 604 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,920 Speaker 3: truly survivors. They had to go through famines, they had 605 00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,359 Speaker 3: to go through the atrocities of the cultural evolution, all 606 00:36:38,440 --> 00:36:42,800 Speaker 3: the awful things that a dictatorship could do to its people. 607 00:36:43,120 --> 00:36:45,920 Speaker 3: They've had to live through that. So they are survivors. 608 00:36:46,320 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 3: And I guess I've grown up with those stories. 609 00:36:48,960 --> 00:36:49,400 Speaker 1: Yeah. 610 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:54,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely, you're definitely a survivor because to subconsciously be that 611 00:36:54,760 --> 00:36:57,799 Speaker 2: aware in a situation like that, you'd make a good 612 00:36:57,800 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: Special Forces operator. 613 00:37:02,480 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: Any better? Well, is it you were grunging away? I'm 614 00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:06,640 Speaker 1: sure you've got really good apps. 615 00:37:07,360 --> 00:37:09,319 Speaker 3: I used to joke to myself, you know, the only 616 00:37:09,400 --> 00:37:12,080 Speaker 3: time I have good visible apps and I don't have 617 00:37:12,120 --> 00:37:14,799 Speaker 3: a mirror or a phone to take a selfie. 618 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:16,879 Speaker 2: Is there ever a moment that you that you really 619 00:37:16,920 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 2: miss Australia and that you feel like you've been portrayed 620 00:37:19,320 --> 00:37:21,080 Speaker 2: washering your cell by China? 621 00:37:21,160 --> 00:37:21,279 Speaker 3: Oh? 622 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:21,840 Speaker 4: Of course. 623 00:37:22,360 --> 00:37:26,319 Speaker 3: I was having to watch the state use every night 624 00:37:26,800 --> 00:37:31,279 Speaker 3: and hating it or the lies they tell and the 625 00:37:32,520 --> 00:37:39,120 Speaker 3: you know, idolization of the president and the stupid slogans 626 00:37:39,160 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 3: they force people to believe in. I went off almost 627 00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:46,719 Speaker 3: all things Chinese in a big way. 628 00:37:47,560 --> 00:37:51,399 Speaker 4: Oh and I kind of liken it. 629 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,640 Speaker 3: To having two mothers, a birth mother and an adopted mother, 630 00:37:56,480 --> 00:38:05,400 Speaker 3: and the birth mother did these unspeakably cruel things to me, 631 00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:11,360 Speaker 3: and my adopted mother embraced me, believed in me, supported me, 632 00:38:11,600 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 3: helped me, secured my freedom. And also with an experience 633 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 3: like this, you can't help but rethink your identity and 634 00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 3: what sort of society you want to live in. 635 00:38:25,040 --> 00:38:27,319 Speaker 4: I think at the time, living in. 636 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:32,920 Speaker 3: China for so long, I had started to miss what 637 00:38:33,080 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 3: was going on in the background. 638 00:38:34,719 --> 00:38:35,759 Speaker 4: I only saw. 639 00:38:36,400 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 3: The growth and you know, advancements technologically. 640 00:38:41,880 --> 00:38:44,680 Speaker 4: I saw that people were leading more. 641 00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:51,440 Speaker 3: Prosperous vibes, But I think that really neglected the human rights. 642 00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:54,160 Speaker 4: Abuses and what China was doing in the. 643 00:38:54,120 --> 00:39:01,319 Speaker 3: Background, and especially because it was now financially, logically, militarily 644 00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:05,200 Speaker 3: more strong, it felt it had more back. 645 00:39:05,120 --> 00:39:07,440 Speaker 4: Up to do those things. 646 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:11,680 Speaker 3: And that is a real dilemma for a lot of 647 00:39:12,120 --> 00:39:15,920 Speaker 3: overseas Chinese even it won't to be proud of their 648 00:39:15,960 --> 00:39:17,720 Speaker 3: country because. 649 00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:19,480 Speaker 4: They might have started out being a shaped of it 650 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 4: when China was poor and backward. But is everything China 651 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,360 Speaker 4: does something to be proud of. I don't think so. 652 00:39:30,400 --> 00:39:33,920 Speaker 2: Wow, when do you start to realize there's a bit 653 00:39:33,920 --> 00:39:37,759 Speaker 2: of hope of getting out? Is there a day of 654 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:39,719 Speaker 2: a moment that happened where you thought, do you know 655 00:39:39,760 --> 00:39:43,839 Speaker 2: what I'm actually I can actually see freedom here? Or 656 00:39:43,880 --> 00:39:46,240 Speaker 2: was it just taking every day as it comes. 657 00:39:47,000 --> 00:39:49,880 Speaker 3: I don't know if this was in one of your books, 658 00:39:49,880 --> 00:39:54,839 Speaker 3: but I felt hope was a very dangerous thing. I 659 00:39:54,920 --> 00:39:59,560 Speaker 3: wanted to be always on, always prepared for the worst, 660 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:06,840 Speaker 3: and to be disciplined and very calm and not bothered 661 00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:12,720 Speaker 3: by disappointment or frustration. And in a way I felt, 662 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:18,040 Speaker 3: if I prepared for the worst, then things can only 663 00:40:18,120 --> 00:40:23,400 Speaker 3: be better. But to hope for something good or to 664 00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:26,600 Speaker 3: get used to comfort either was dangerous. 665 00:40:26,840 --> 00:40:30,440 Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely, yet comfort you know I always say that 666 00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:33,759 Speaker 2: there's no growth and comfort and comfort, you know, you 667 00:40:33,760 --> 00:40:36,960 Speaker 2: can get complacent when you when you when you get where, 668 00:40:37,000 --> 00:40:39,160 Speaker 2: you get comfortable and you can let your guard down 669 00:40:39,200 --> 00:40:41,880 Speaker 2: and before you know it, you know you're signing another paper. 670 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:43,240 Speaker 1: You're signing your life away. 671 00:40:44,120 --> 00:40:46,440 Speaker 2: So you were literally on every single day you were 672 00:40:46,640 --> 00:40:48,640 Speaker 2: you were not You were just making sure that you 673 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,640 Speaker 2: were sharp, making sure that you were taking everything that 674 00:40:51,840 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 2: was that day presented itself. 675 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:57,720 Speaker 4: And knowing that I had already got through. 676 00:40:57,760 --> 00:41:01,080 Speaker 1: Some mint was which was the. 677 00:41:01,000 --> 00:41:05,200 Speaker 3: First six months, gave me a lot of confidence that 678 00:41:05,880 --> 00:41:07,000 Speaker 3: I could get through. 679 00:41:08,360 --> 00:41:11,239 Speaker 2: Or worse, did you feel like at any time that 680 00:41:11,360 --> 00:41:14,920 Speaker 2: you were deteriorating that that you know that you were 681 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,160 Speaker 2: starting to lose your mind or when when you had 682 00:41:18,200 --> 00:41:20,799 Speaker 2: those moments you were very conscious just to snap out 683 00:41:20,840 --> 00:41:21,080 Speaker 2: of it. 684 00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:26,879 Speaker 3: I think I became really good at making fun out 685 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:33,680 Speaker 3: of nothing, and because of the fun, that would color 686 00:41:33,760 --> 00:41:37,640 Speaker 3: each day and make the boddom and. 687 00:41:37,600 --> 00:41:39,399 Speaker 4: The pain easier to bear. 688 00:41:40,320 --> 00:41:46,600 Speaker 3: So it then creates momentum to do more creative things 689 00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:53,160 Speaker 3: like make own shite cider and even making birthday cakes 690 00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:54,240 Speaker 3: for my cell mates. 691 00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,480 Speaker 4: So I was gonna I was definitely in a positive spiral. 692 00:41:59,080 --> 00:42:03,440 Speaker 2: Oh good, good, well, listen making moonshine spirits that I 693 00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:04,400 Speaker 2: bet that was interesting. 694 00:42:06,440 --> 00:42:11,800 Speaker 4: I guess it's a prison classic, but it is. 695 00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:14,799 Speaker 2: A copa mechanism. Right, When do you realize your day, 696 00:42:14,960 --> 00:42:17,279 Speaker 2: your day has come? When did that moment come that 697 00:42:17,360 --> 00:42:19,799 Speaker 2: you were, you know, being told that you're going to 698 00:42:19,840 --> 00:42:22,960 Speaker 2: be released? And when you were told, did you believe it? 699 00:42:23,360 --> 00:42:24,399 Speaker 2: And who were you told by? 700 00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:25,920 Speaker 4: I was told by the judge. 701 00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:28,640 Speaker 3: I was given a heads up in my holding cage 702 00:42:28,719 --> 00:42:31,719 Speaker 3: at the court on the day of my sentency, which 703 00:42:31,760 --> 00:42:34,759 Speaker 3: was the twenty seventh step by twenty twenty three, that 704 00:42:36,080 --> 00:42:38,279 Speaker 3: I would be satisfied with my. 705 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:44,040 Speaker 4: Sentence, and yep, I could not. 706 00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:49,279 Speaker 3: Stop myself from, you know, having wild fantasies that I 707 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:53,080 Speaker 3: might be released soon. But it wasn't until of the 708 00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,880 Speaker 3: actual sentence and he read out the verdict that I 709 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,400 Speaker 3: quickly calculated in my head I would be free in 710 00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:03,520 Speaker 3: just two and a half weeks. 711 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:06,960 Speaker 4: But even then I was always afraid. 712 00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,080 Speaker 3: That they would go back on their word or something 713 00:43:09,080 --> 00:43:14,600 Speaker 3: would happen, So I always had the safety guard still 714 00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 3: on in my head. 715 00:43:16,400 --> 00:43:19,279 Speaker 2: Inside you were screaming, you were you know, you were 716 00:43:19,400 --> 00:43:21,960 Speaker 2: desperate to get out, was but you didn't obviously let 717 00:43:22,000 --> 00:43:24,839 Speaker 2: it show. But what was that happening in the two 718 00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 2: and a half weeks that you thought you'd get out of? 719 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 3: Those two and a half weeks felt like eternity because 720 00:43:32,719 --> 00:43:37,680 Speaker 3: all of my mental exercises, the memorizing and going through 721 00:43:37,719 --> 00:43:39,480 Speaker 3: the vocabulary. 722 00:43:39,040 --> 00:43:43,320 Speaker 4: And even my physical exercise regiment. 723 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 3: It was much harder when I had hope, when I 724 00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:51,759 Speaker 3: had this date to work to, and I became very 725 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 3: impatient rather than serene. So I really struggled to do 726 00:43:58,120 --> 00:44:02,000 Speaker 3: everything that I did before with the same sort of 727 00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:03,560 Speaker 3: steely eye determination. 728 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:06,920 Speaker 2: So the day comes, talk to talk to me about 729 00:44:07,360 --> 00:44:11,440 Speaker 2: about that day and how it felt, and who was 730 00:44:11,480 --> 00:44:14,040 Speaker 2: the first person that you saw, Who was the first 731 00:44:14,040 --> 00:44:17,239 Speaker 2: person that you hugged? Take me back to that day 732 00:44:17,840 --> 00:44:20,040 Speaker 2: or did you just think to yourself, get me the 733 00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:22,239 Speaker 2: hell out of here. I'm getting on the first plane 734 00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:23,279 Speaker 2: back to Australia. 735 00:44:24,960 --> 00:44:28,400 Speaker 3: The airfare had been bought for me by the embassy, 736 00:44:29,000 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 3: and I had to go through three days in the 737 00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:37,239 Speaker 3: halfway house before my proper freedom. So it was all 738 00:44:37,280 --> 00:44:42,440 Speaker 3: its stages. But I guess the most exciting a top 739 00:44:42,560 --> 00:44:47,120 Speaker 3: of the exhil ready moment was when I pushed open 740 00:44:47,600 --> 00:44:53,359 Speaker 3: this door after I got to Melbourne Airport and you know, 741 00:44:53,480 --> 00:44:58,319 Speaker 3: all through the corridor to where my kids and my 742 00:44:58,400 --> 00:45:02,640 Speaker 3: mom were waiting for me, and I just had in 743 00:45:02,640 --> 00:45:07,279 Speaker 3: my arms in that instant and everyone is squealing and 744 00:45:07,760 --> 00:45:11,839 Speaker 3: shouting and crying and hugging and jumping up and down. 745 00:45:13,280 --> 00:45:20,279 Speaker 4: My mouth was yeah, just crying silently. It Yeah. 746 00:45:20,280 --> 00:45:24,960 Speaker 3: When I see the photos, it brings all the rush 747 00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:26,200 Speaker 3: of emotions back. 748 00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,600 Speaker 2: How do you think is it affected you psychologically? Has 749 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:32,640 Speaker 2: it made you stronger? Has it made you more resilient 750 00:45:33,640 --> 00:45:34,359 Speaker 2: or times tough? 751 00:45:34,440 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: Sometimes? 752 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:36,680 Speaker 4: Oh? 753 00:45:36,760 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 3: Absolutely more resilient and more secure about who I am 754 00:45:42,239 --> 00:45:47,120 Speaker 3: because I went through all these years and months of 755 00:45:47,320 --> 00:45:51,480 Speaker 3: not having anything and not being anyone, and I still 756 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:52,320 Speaker 3: had dignity. 757 00:45:52,800 --> 00:45:54,080 Speaker 4: I could still help people. 758 00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 3: I still I could make myself laugh and get through 759 00:45:59,560 --> 00:46:01,160 Speaker 3: the day, each. 760 00:46:00,960 --> 00:46:04,400 Speaker 4: One a little bit more interesting than the one before. 761 00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:05,120 Speaker 4: Do you know what? 762 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:05,960 Speaker 1: Do you know what I love? 763 00:46:06,080 --> 00:46:06,239 Speaker 8: Lee? 764 00:46:06,680 --> 00:46:07,279 Speaker 1: Do you know what I love? 765 00:46:07,320 --> 00:46:08,920 Speaker 2: And I said, the reason why I ask about the 766 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:10,920 Speaker 2: military is because one of the one of our mottos 767 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:13,600 Speaker 2: in the Royal Marines are you know humor In the 768 00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:16,720 Speaker 2: face of adversity, you always have to find a way 769 00:46:16,760 --> 00:46:19,600 Speaker 2: to laugh, or to laugh at yourself, or to find 770 00:46:19,920 --> 00:46:24,240 Speaker 2: something humorous in the face of adversity, and you seem 771 00:46:24,320 --> 00:46:26,319 Speaker 2: like that that helps you get you through not only 772 00:46:26,400 --> 00:46:30,960 Speaker 2: your prison sentence, but to get through life. There's definitely 773 00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:34,360 Speaker 2: a military commando in there somewhere, that's for sure, definitely 774 00:46:34,360 --> 00:46:37,759 Speaker 2: a survivor. And a final question for you, would you 775 00:46:37,800 --> 00:46:39,080 Speaker 2: ever go back to China. 776 00:46:39,200 --> 00:46:43,279 Speaker 3: If China changed regimes and if I've felt safe enough 777 00:46:43,400 --> 00:46:47,600 Speaker 3: and welcome enough, I would go because they're the petty wise, 778 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:51,120 Speaker 3: they're the petty wise. For example, because I've deported, I 779 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,279 Speaker 3: can't even apply for a visa for ten years and 780 00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:57,240 Speaker 3: I'm not petty. 781 00:46:57,440 --> 00:46:57,640 Speaker 1: No. 782 00:46:57,920 --> 00:47:02,880 Speaker 3: And also, China is not the Chinese government, it is 783 00:47:02,880 --> 00:47:03,960 Speaker 3: not the Chinese people. 784 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:10,080 Speaker 4: They are three different concepts and the Chinese government. 785 00:47:11,239 --> 00:47:15,080 Speaker 3: Has done these things, but it doesn't take away from 786 00:47:16,160 --> 00:47:20,120 Speaker 3: the wonderful scenery or all the friends I made. 787 00:47:22,000 --> 00:47:24,200 Speaker 4: But I just wish they would. 788 00:47:24,480 --> 00:47:29,720 Speaker 3: Stop making people feel afraid, stop controlling how people think 789 00:47:29,800 --> 00:47:30,800 Speaker 3: and talk and act. 790 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:37,879 Speaker 4: That's really insecure for a so called strong nation. 791 00:47:39,600 --> 00:47:43,239 Speaker 2: And have you got a final message for Australia. The 792 00:47:43,280 --> 00:47:46,319 Speaker 2: country that you felt like is the step mother that's 793 00:47:46,320 --> 00:47:49,920 Speaker 2: embraced you and made you the person that you are. 794 00:47:50,320 --> 00:47:53,680 Speaker 8: Well, I've found myself that I would spend the rest 795 00:47:53,680 --> 00:48:00,399 Speaker 8: of my life making Australia a more open, fair and 796 00:48:00,480 --> 00:48:06,359 Speaker 8: kind nation, or at least preserving all that. 797 00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:10,160 Speaker 3: Hope and fair and kind about it, because that's the 798 00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:13,160 Speaker 3: country that embraced me, and. 799 00:48:15,280 --> 00:48:17,480 Speaker 4: Thoughts of all that got beat through. 800 00:48:18,719 --> 00:48:22,480 Speaker 2: Listen, Chung Lay, your story has been fascinating. You are 801 00:48:22,640 --> 00:48:26,960 Speaker 2: a soldier, you're a warrior, your survivor. 802 00:48:26,440 --> 00:48:28,480 Speaker 1: Your all of those good things. And what I love 803 00:48:28,480 --> 00:48:29,000 Speaker 1: about it. 804 00:48:28,920 --> 00:48:31,840 Speaker 2: Is you've always had a smile on your face during 805 00:48:31,840 --> 00:48:34,680 Speaker 2: this interview. You know the positivity you must have read 806 00:48:34,760 --> 00:48:38,960 Speaker 2: Zero Negativity or the Fear Bubble one of those, but 807 00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 2: I love I can almost feel your energy through the screen, 808 00:48:42,600 --> 00:48:43,719 Speaker 2: which I think is. 809 00:48:43,800 --> 00:48:49,040 Speaker 1: Very very powerful. Listen, Enjoy, enjoy the family, and thank 810 00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:49,879 Speaker 1: you ever so much for coming. 811 00:48:49,960 --> 00:48:52,000 Speaker 3: Thank you so much, thank you for helping me through 812 00:48:52,120 --> 00:48:53,000 Speaker 3: the dark hours. 813 00:48:53,960 --> 00:48:57,120 Speaker 2: Chung Lay's book, A Memoir of Freedom, is available now. 814 00:48:57,560 --> 00:49:00,439 Speaker 2: You can also watch the Sky News documentary The Chung 815 00:49:00,560 --> 00:49:03,880 Speaker 2: Lay My Story on YouTube. I'll put the links to 816 00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:06,840 Speaker 2: both in the show notes. Thanks for joining me on 817 00:49:06,880 --> 00:49:09,640 Speaker 2: this episode of head Game. If you enjoyed this episode, 818 00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,600 Speaker 2: please leave me a review. I'm at Middleton. See you 819 00:49:13,680 --> 00:49:14,879 Speaker 2: again next time